Review of 2016 Newsnight

Good evening and welcome to our final show of the year.

Tonight Newsnight says goodbye to 2016, the year

I think the majority want to stay in a reformed European Union. I happen

to believe that the people in this country don't want to pull

drawbridges up. At 20 minutes to five we can now say... The people of

the UK have voted to leave the European Union. Have got my country

back, I won't be here for long but what I've got I want to keep. About

ten o'clock would be about right. I do not think it would be right for

me to try to be the captain that steers our country to its next

destination. We did it! Everybody woke up in time! Everybody listened!

I'm sorry, we've just been through three months of agony on the issue

of immigration and the public have been led to believe that what they

have voted for is an end to it. We live in a besieged area. We haven't

had anything to eat since the beginning of the siege. We believe

this is a world first, selfies stick being used to transport an eminent

London surgeon into a basement hospital in a besieged city.

The truth is the question of belief. We have our special Russian troops

that you need to accept as something that maybe is not your truth. It

does feel, maybe you don't feel but you are not free to express your

opinion, because you are a racist, bigoted, you are

homophobic. What would you do on your first day in the White House?

So many things you wouldn't even believe it. Thank you. This is the

most important thing about Donald Trump. He was sociopathic in the

classic sense. We could spend all day talking about him but it's

Hillary Clinton who is likely to be the next president. There has been

quite a shift in the last hour. To the names of Jefferson, Washington

and Adams, we can now add Trump. Taste it, roll it around your

tongue. America's President-elect is Donald J Trump. It's not true, he

hasn't been racist. Text textbook racism was the phrase. Is a white

man you don't get to define what racism is. Simon, calm down dear.

Don't patronise me. It is not a moment for calm. It is a moment for

contesting what seems to be a very dangerous point in American history.

This has been a year of seismic shifts in power.

Britain voted to wrest back power from the EU.

In America the old establishment elites lost power to

In Russia, Putin has deployed everything from war planes

to the web to wield power thousands of miles from Moscow.

Tonight we have convened a group of guests to work out what brought

about such momentous change, who has benefited most as a result,

who have suffered the greatest, and what it will presage for 2017.

And joined by senior Ukip figure Suzanne Evans,

the commentator and columnist Peter Hitchens, Paris Lees,

the commentator and columnist Peter Hitchens.

harrowing, you may wish to look away, tell us why you chose this. On

the fringes of Europe people are dying, more than last year and I

think that we have convinced ourselves that it is to do with

illegal people trafficking, an industry that does exist and we have

convinced ourselves that it is only to do with the wars in the Middle

East although it is also to do with climate change. These Africans

escaping the effects of climate change. Trying to escape the effect

of desertification. This is not a crisis. A crisis is something that

can be solved. This is what the early 21st century is going to look

like. But there are more people crossing the Mediterranean this year

than last year and yet in terms of the news coverage of it we seem to

be slightly desensitised. Is it because you think we are distancing

ourselves from it? The reason we are here talking about 2016, so much has

happened, we have had more enormous stories in 2016 than any year I can

remember. It is a dreadful image, and not the only one.

You sift through newspapers, we don't see how the images. The

question is interpretation. My interpretation would be completely

different from yours. How would you interpret it? As the consequence

largely of the crazy intervention which we in France partially made in

Libya, the main reason for this particular event. An astonishing

diplomatic and military mistake, as bad as Iraq but somehow never dwelt

upon, analysed, its culprits never properly excoriated and punished. An

astonishing thing done largely with public support and a great deal of

cross media, something must be done... People from Mali, and the

Nigerians... The forces drawing them to Europe were there before we

destroyed Libya. The destruction of Libya brought the Muslims...

Suzanne, tell me what image you have chosen.

I've chosen an image, I felt I had to choose something from the

referendum campaign and I have chosen this one because I think in a

sense it sums it up. We have a bunch of multimillionaire luvvies and rich

kids on a boat being terribly rude to

some fishermen who are trying to protest about the Common fisheries

policy of the EU which has destroyed their livelihoods. So for me this

was an iconic image. Also it is not a thing about the smug liberal elite

that we will talk about later. After a referendum, you feel somehow that

it caught arises the wound and then there's a rapprochement to the

country gets back together. It hasn't happened this time. I think

so because the people who voted Remain are saying, the world

has not fallen apart and the economy will be fine. Things seem to be

absolutely OK. Let's just get on with it. I think the latest polling

I have seen suggests that 68% of people would vote Leave today. Was

the polling counter-productive? I think the thing about a referendum

is that it caught arises and heels when

it is divisive, and we have had to in this country which have come out

around 50-50. Everyone I spoke to in Scotland before the Brexit vote said

that the experience of the Scottish referendum was of families torn

apart and friendships broken. They warned me this would happen and they

were right. Let's move on, Peter, to your image. You have chosen a

domestic political image. Seuk-hyun Baek I love a good gloat. And for me

this has been a great year for gloating. In some ways this is my

favourite cloud, the total failure of the Blairites to overthrow Jeremy

Corbyn on a second attempt, something I could have told them.

Their total misunderstanding which led to the failure of what is going

on in politics that they themselves had been

replaced by the Conservative Party, and that there is absolutely nowhere

left to the Labour Party to go. Do you think Jeremy Corbyn is a good

thing for British politics? Enormously. For so long people have

said, we are sick of all the political parties being the same as

each other and we finally get a situation where they are not and

Labour is led by a socialist and people are saying, this is terrible.

I think it would be terrific if the Conservative Party could be led by a

conservative although that is a bigger demand. Is Jeremy Corbyn good

for British politics? He's very good for Ukip! Not the same. Former

Labour voters are coming to Ukip because of Jeremy Corbyn who shows a

lack of patriotism, as do most of his Shadow Cabinet and our new

leader Paul Nuttall is determined to get into the Labour heartlands and

look at the issues which affect working people which Jeremy Corbyn

is ignoring. Let's pause there because we will come back for a

discussion in a moment. It's been a bad year

for the much-derided On the night of November 8th,

as the seismic result of the US Presidential race came into focus,

New Yorker editor David Remnick, someone who, if such an elite does

exist could perhaps be regarded as its High Priest, wrote

an immediate hugely emotional response for the magazine: calling

Donald Trump's victory "an American tragedy" and "a sickening

event in the history It made Remnick a visceral

voice for many in liberal America and beyond,

and a symbol to many of Trump's supporters of that out-of-touch

smug liberal elite. Our editor, Ian Katz,

has been talking to him. Let's talk about that extraordinary

piece that you wrote It went around the world,

I think, within hours. You talked about it being a tragedy

for the American public, a tragedy for the constitution,

a sickening event in the history of the United States

and liberal democracy. I am sure some people saw me

as someone who didn't get it, who can't reconcile himself

to a new President, you should Or maybe that it was just

a little hyper-ventilating. Some people on the left

actually thought that it was I don't deny it, but also I don't

rescind it one iota. I would be delighted if the evidence

since election night told me, Sometimes Conservatives win

and the Liberals lose. It tumbled and then

the reverse happened. I know that it is at

a volume of alarm that I don't normally sound,

maybe I should sound it more often and God knows we have had historical

chapters that deserved it. But I've seen nothing

between November 8th and now, we are a goodly month later,

that makes me feel, ah! Don't get so hot and bothered,

we had Nixon, we had... well, take your pick of presidents

you don't approve of. It's not that, it's something

much more alarming. A friend of mine here at the office

said, it's like you have been tossed out of an aeroplane and you feel

the sense of alarm, fear, you feel that freezing wind

around you but you have And on the other hand, no parachute

has opened, no sense of, this is a normal event in the turn

between the back and forth between the liberal

and the Conservative There is not that sense,

at least not for me. But there is that impulse to make it

such, I see it all around me. You warned against that

in your piece didn't you? Has it been turned into another sort

of turn of the democratic wheel... It is a very human impulse,

always to normalise a situation so that you are not in a state

of constant alarm or fear I hope all of the bad things that

I have predicted, I really do, I hope they are completely

and utterly wrong. We have a President who seems

to think that the normal business of conflicts of interest do not

apply to him. His children are going to run

a gigantic business and yet also participate in the decision-making

of the White House. He has investments all over

the world that depend He doesn't seem to care

about this one iota. His temperament, which is a very

important thing in a President, is completely opposite

of the temperament you would He trafficks in hatred,

in petulance, in resentment, Here's the thing, I love my

country, I understand, completely and utterly,

that this is a divided country, ideologically

and in many other ways. I know that people of my political

ilk will not win every election, to not reconcile yourself

to that is to be a child. This is not Mitt Romney winning

in 2012 or John McCain in 2008... I want to say one other thing,

it is part of a larger current in the world that I find

equally troubling, It has justifiable beefs

with the results of globalisation, There all kinds of people

in the North of England, in the South and in the rust belt

of the United States and throughout Europe who are made uneasy by,

and who have suffered I just don't think that the results,

the political results, people in office that we're seeing

in many of these countries, is In that piece that you wrote

on the night of the election and you said, we're not heading

for fascism because this country wouldn't allow it,

but the conditions are there and you said that this

is maybe how this starts... I think a lot of countries have had

this circumstance, of believing it And it happens slowly, slowly,

and then all at once. Part of my alarmism ,if you want

to call it that, was to, in my own small way,

to be part of the sounding of an alarm, self-awareness

that we are not going I don't think anyone thinks that

a funny man is going to come out with the little moustache

and an armband. No, we have a reality television

billionaire, but who has adopted certain ideological and character

illogical things that are not for the better of this

country, in my view. And taken to its logical conclusion,

yeah, I think that a form of American authoritarianism

is at stake. I think it is an alarm

worth sounding. That is what resisting

it is all about, is to make sure that the alarm is not realised

as a reality. I think it is an absolute civic

and journalistic necessity. And you can read a longer

version of that interview We are joined by her journalists.

Suzanne, picking up on what David Remnick seems to be saying, it is

not the normal balance of whether it is Democrat or Republican even if it

is that there are neither side, there is a sense of not restoring

equilibria, this is different. What an astonishing interview. Chest

beating, wailing, gnashing of teeth, he does not hope he is wrong, he

hopes he is absolutely right! Here's hoping that President elect Trump

screws it all up. It is astonishing. Trump, I was no great fan of his,

but I have spoken to people who do know him, they say he is great at

problem solving, he has lots of positive features and they have done

psychological assessments and he came out very well and has children

seem well balanced, he was voted for by the people.

To try and condemn him before he has taken office and say he will be a

disaster, we need to wait and see. It is not as though the current

world order has done such a good job. Do you think there is this

liberal chest beating? I'm not sure I quite agree. I think a lot of

younger people are quite worried and are thinking, have we been here

before? I asked a lot of my older friends, this stability that we

enjoy at the moment, is that just a recent thing? Things have been

unstable in the past and what I am hearing is that people feel like it

is something new and it is not business or politics as usual and

there is a lot of fear and uncertainty. To second-guess the

motives of someone, I hope he is wrong. What stability do you have at

the moment? This is possibly one of the most troubled times I remember

and you talk about stability, we do not have stability. Give me an

example. Leaving the European Union. We need to secure our country. The

European Union... I think we should talk... Let's just talk about Trump

and David Remnick. He concedes Trump been elected, that there are serious

groups of unrepresented people with genuine grievances. He talked about

the British North and the American South, quite correctly. Where did

you hear David Remnick or people like him at all concerned about

those people before the emergence of Donald Trump for decades? This has

been waiting to happen and they paid no attention at all. Two and see

your point, we are looking for the parachute, the point is we can

revisit the campaign and we know Hillary Clinton did not pay enough

attention to the rust belt, it has just come upon them as if they did

not think it was coming. I think Peter has a point. It is not enough

to get that people are suffering and that there is discontent with

globalisation, we need to do something about it. Hillary Clinton

lost the election as well as Donald Trump winning it. The failure of the

consensus politics, in some ways Donald Trump as won the presidency

but the Republican party did not. They did everything they could to

try and stop him but they did when Congress. When do you think all this

started, we look back to 2008, Barack Obama is elected, I knew

Russian President, when did all this start, when did all this

development. When I was living in the US in the early 1990s, it was

under way on one of the major features is something that is now

mirrored in Europe in a strange way, which is the huge amount of

immigration, much of it illegal, coming across the Mexican border

which is something that Trump sort of addressed in a very belated and

not very intelligent way. That changed things hugely and the

American Republican movement, Conservative journalism, were riven

during that period about what to do about it and the Democrats did

absolutely nothing except say it was fine. It has more to do with jobs

going than immigrants coming. It is also to do with Nafta. Just on the

question of what the trajectory has been in terms of tolerance, from the

1960s onwards, this was always going to be, new laws, in America,

homosexuality was not illegal, we had birth control and lots of

different things happening here... And there was a tolerance, you feel

that tolerance again has been a blip and we are becoming intolerant

towards difference again. A little bit. I think a lot of this is

connected to social media and people getting their voices heard and

sometimes that is things that we want to hear, people

who did not have a voice, having a voice, sometimes it is people

spreading hate and it surprised me when I started seeing comments under

YouTube videos and seeing words I had not heard in public for years.

Really racist terms. It annoys me this characterisation of a response

to political correctness gone mad, I think what we are seeing is

traditional sexism and racism recalibrating itself. If you're

hearing and seeing that, what is given a licence? I think it is

cynical politicians from your party exploiting people and you rear is a

really good point about working-class people and the left

not being interested. I am from one of those towns that voted for Brexit

and I think it is interesting that nobody is interested in speaking to

us when we want to talk about housing or schools or jobs but

suddenly when people have got racist concerns, everyone wants to listen

and it is really important. Let's is an comeback on that. That is

precisely the problem. Can I speak? People like you have for years

actually said, we don't want to talk about these issues, we don't want to

talk about immigration and you have refused to let people talk about it.

Hang on... I presented a documentary on radio 12 years ago in which we

explored prejudices and I went to meet a woman who wore a hedge out

because that was one of my prejudices we all have ideas like

that -- macro hijab. Let me just make this simple point, for a very

long time, people who held perfectly reads -- reasonable views about

marriage to immigration, were characterised as having something

wrong with them and a phobia... Was a particularly left-wing tactic. If

you held... If you held a legitimate view about for instance, I mentioned

it simply, the level of immigration, there were people who felt no

compunction in smearing you as racist. This happened all the time

and there was an unwillingness to debate rationally. You cannot say

that and there is something wrong with you. This is recompense for

that. We have instantly gone on to social culture. We were talking a

moment ago about towns in the North of England and their economic

decline and the flight of jobs and now we are talking about social

issues. This is the right and the left failing to talk about exactly

those issues. Let's talk about the economic soffit and the rust belt.

Mexican immigrants have not... You either take a position for looking

ahead to 2017, this year has been a disaster and we need to fight back

or this has been a great year and had only consolidated. Let's go with

the former. It has been a disaster and should be a fightback. What do

you think will happen? What has to happen next year for you to feel

better? In 2016, lots of forces were released. Irrespective of what you

think about Brexit or Trump, positive or negative, forces have

been raised, theories have been unleashed, I do not know if Donald

Trump has a plan for what happens when people discovery he cannot do

all the things he said on the campaign trail. I don't know what

the plan is for Brexit when we don't perhaps get the deal that we

confidently said that we could. We are already dealing with

disappointment that there is and that money for the NHS. I agree that

expectations have been raised by largely irresponsible people who

came to prominence because proper responsible politicians refuse to

deal with that. Would this be Ukip? I have always regarded Ukip as a

marginal party and I don't think it ever had any serious possibility of

reaching power and that made it subject to the struggles are always

most vicious when this price is so small. Do you think it has been a

great year? So many people will be disappointed with the nature of how

Brexit will play out in the nature of how Donald Trump will be in the

White House. You're making huge conclusions, or that we will not get

a good deal. I absolutely see that we hold all the Cards in this

country, we have the biggest trade deficit with the European Union,

they need us far more than we need them and there is every opportunity

to get a good deal and to go back to my picture right at the beginning,

just if we can reinvigorate our fishing industry by getting control,

that would be wonderful. We can talk about it in relation to your

photograph and how the EU... What needs to happen for next year? I am

pretty pessimistic. I think there is a lot of provocation going on and it

is very interesting, can we not just have a debate about immigration,

turning into Polish centres being vandalised and rising hate crimes. A

lot of people from marginalised backgrounds are worried. It will not

affect you. Nobody is going to come up to you in the straight and abuse

you. People abuse me because I am Ukip all the time! That is a

political persuasion. No one is going to attack you based on the

colour of your skin and who you are. This is an academic debate. People

will be organising and I think that we will see some interesting

activists. Very quickly, one big thing about 2016 was Andy Murray

been declared number one, one good thing from 2016. I love that moment.

I campaign of any good things apart from the opportunity to gloat at the

discomfiture of my foes. Madonna as a clown. What is going on? The

Olympics. This has also been a year

in which we lost some towering figures and our cultural landscape

became a little less technicolour. For whatsoever from

one place doth fall. Is with the tide unto

an other brought. Hello. Quite a lot of variety across

the UK this