Attack on Westminster Newsnight


Attack on Westminster

Evan Davis hosts a Newsnight special with the latest on the terror attack outside the Houses of Parliament.


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This programme contains scenes which some viewers

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The terrorists chose to strike at the heart of the capital city, where

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people of all nationalities, religions and cultures come together

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to celebrate the values of liberty, democracy and freedom of speech. The

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streets of Westminster, home to the world's oldest Parliament, are

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ingrained with the spirit of freedom that echoes in some of the furthest

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corners of the globe. There are few places that are a more

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obvious target for a terror There are the crowds,

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there's symbolism, and today, On Westminster Bridge,

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a car was used as a weapon, causing at least three deaths

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and multiple injuries, before driving past Big Ben

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and crashing into the railings Then an occupant of the vehicle got

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out and went on to stab He has just been named as Keith

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Palmer, who was 48. There are, as always, questions

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about the causes of these attacks, the measures we take to prevent them

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and the effectiveness We will be discussing those

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through the programme, but nowhere are there more cameras,

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more police and passing journalists to witness

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an attack than in that zone. Like many, I was in the area

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and came out of Westminster station at 2.45pm to hear the sound of three

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or four gunshots. A lot of people were running away,

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many others were not, carrying on oblivious or perplexed

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at what was happening. This was the scene,

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then, from my phone. Across the road from the Tube,

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a car has rammed the wall, there. An injured person is on the ground

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and a cyclist trying to help. At this stage, we had no idea

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that there had been deaths Most of us were looking

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to see what had happened Very quickly, more police arrived -

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from all directions. And the effort was made to clear

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the public from the square. As Big Ben chimed 3pm,

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there was a strange hush over Parliament Square,

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with just the noise of police sirens in the background and a lot

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of people just gazing and trying Well, John Sweeney has

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been piecing together At around 2.40pm, a car drives on to

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Westminster Bridge, mounted the pavement and ploughs into people in

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its path. The vehicle crosses the bridge, passes Big Ben and slams

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into the railings to the left. The attacker, armed with a knife, runs

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around the corner and into the main gates of the Palace of Westminster.

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He stabs a police officer. Eyewitnesses say that as he

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approached a second officer, clutching his life, he was shot. The

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first people to be hit with standing on the south bank of the river, by

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this kiosk. This Danish teenager saw the horror. The people were just

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lying on the ground. This man, the driver, but at first

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the attacker had lost control of his vehicle. The car started speeding

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up, the only by that was a light had changed, as he sped up, there was

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the shot and he has taken three victims. As I was driving, I was

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thinking, he has lost his balance or his brakes and then the second and

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the third, I have to stop the new middle-of-the-road to point to the

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other cars to stop because there were people in the

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middle-of-the-road. People flying like football. I felt sorry for one

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of the gentlemen, I do not know what happened but it is not something I

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would like to witness everyday. Unconscious in the middle of the

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road. Did you get a chance to see the gentleman driving the car? , my

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attention was on what was happening, it was so quick, and after 30

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seconds I realised. Only one person. That is a crime against humanity.

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Our next eyewitness, a former Polish Foreign Minister who filmed this

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footage. We heard what sounded like metal on metal and we assumed it was

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a collision but then we looked outside and I sold one person died

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and another, I took my phone from a journalistic habit and SL five

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people in all on the tarmac and on the pavement and then I understood

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it must have been deliberate. In the chaos, a woman was reported to have

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fallen into the tens. She was pulled out injured but alive. The attacker

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then crashed his car into the railings just beyond Big Ben.

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Hitting, it appears, yet another innocent bystander. My wife and I

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came from the Westminster Underground and as they came up

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looked across to Parliament and there was a car crashed into the

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gate. And the police officers were running with machine guns and there

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was a man down beside the car. After is settled in, I thought, I don't

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like what is going on and I took my wife and her friend and got behind

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concrete. Journalist Quentin Letts heard the car crash and ran to his

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office window overlooking Parliament Square. The saw a thickset man in

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black clothes coming through the gates were people would normally

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drive cars into New Palace Yard, just below Big Ben. Add this man had

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something in his hand, it looked like a stick of some sort. He was

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challenged by a couple of policemen in yellow jackets and one of the

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policemen fell down. And we could see the man in black waving his arm

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in a way that suggested he was either stabbing or striking the

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yellow jacketed police man. And one of the policemen ran to get help,

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which was very quick to come. And then, this. I would say 15 yards,

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perhaps. Two plainclothes guys with guns shouted at him, uttered what

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sounded like a warning, he ignored that and they shot and two or three

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times and he fell. Foreign Office Minister Tobias Ellwood administered

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the kiss of life to the dying police officer. The thing London has been

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dreading has finally happened, a terror attack, and this one on the

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very heart of democracy. Inside the chamber, the Deputy Speaker halted

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proceedings. I know how to suspend the city of the house, this house is

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a splendid but please wait. These were the scenes in the mother of

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Parliaments today. Chaos within. But murder without.

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There has been a Scotland Yard briefing. It has confirmed five

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dead, including the attacker at this point, 40 with injuries, they think

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they know the identity of the assailant, they are not putting out

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any name or telling us more about that, they have named the police

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officer who was killed, that is Keith Palmer, a husband and father

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aged 48. They say there will be extra officers on the streets of the

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next few days. An important line is they think the attack was motivated

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by international terror. It may not have been a surprise,

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but it is still a shock. And the Prime Minister came out

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of Number 10 this evening Once again, today, these

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exceptional men and women ran towards the danger,

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even as they encouraged others On behalf of the whole country,

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I want to pay tribute to them. That they have lost one

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of their own in today's attack only makes their calmness

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and professionalism under pressure After the 7/7 attacks occurred,

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Ken Livingstone was Mayor of London. He was in Singapore at the time

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of the attack, helping London win the Olympics,

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but captured the public mood in the aftermath,

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with a well chosen speech. Good evening. I don't know what your

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thoughts were when you heard London had been attacked again. Well, we

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have known this was going to happen, the difference is back 12 years ago,

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when 52 Londoners were killed, that was part of an international group

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linked to international terrorists. The problem now is that most of the

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recent terrorist attacks in Europe have been individual, angry, young

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men, going out with the gun or knife or a lorry on a car killing people.

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It is much more difficult to get the data about them to recognise who

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they are and prepare for that. That is a problem. The nature of

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terrorism in Europe has changed, it is individuals rather than

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organisations. Give us some guidance as to what is going on at the

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moment. What a Scotland Yard doing? Who was in charge at the moment?

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What is the role of politicians at this point or is it delegated to the

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police? We did delegate to the police. After the 911 attacks in New

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York we started planning for this, we created a counterterrorism

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organisation, very large, monitoring the people who could do things like

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this, and vast amount of work went into that. Although we have seen

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this horror today and the horror back 12 years ago with the attacks

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on London, about every year, police stopped three or four attacks in

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London. They are able to do that. But there will always be one

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individual who can get through and can kill. You raise an interesting

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point, is this something that is going to become a normal part of

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life in capital are big cities in Europe and the West? Yes but we

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cannot allow that to change the way we live. What was remarkable about

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the terrorist attacks in 2005, in the weeks that followed, the

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Metropolitan police did not come across a single incident where

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Londoners had turned around and attacked or abused Muslims.

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Londoners recognised what those terrorists wanted to do was to tear

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us apart, to unleash a wave of hatred and antagonism and violence

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and that is how we must respond to this. The Muslims that live in

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London who have become Londoners are not responsible for what has

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happened here. And we have to make certain that the terrorist attacks,

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whether it is an international organisation or one individual,

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angry, young man, cannot divide us. We have to be united. Ken

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Livingstone, do you think the police are equipped, ready and able to deal

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with the situation that faces them? Up to the job? We put vast amounts

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of public money into actually building up the police to do with

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this but also I have to say, in the last few days, Sadiq Khan made an

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incredible statement, saying he was going to bring back the

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neighbourhood patrols that I had when I was the Mayor of London and

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they are very good because if people in a community see two or three

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police officers that they get to know walking through the area, they

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will come up and say, there is something odd going on in that

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house... I am worried about this person. An individual is unlikely to

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pick up the phone and say, can I talk to the counter terrorism unit.

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But they will talk to the neighbourhood police officer. Sadiq

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Khan's policy of bringing back neighbourhood patrols can be crucial

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in making Londoners say. This is the first attack we have had under Sadiq

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Khan, and Muslim Mayor, does this make this an important time for the

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place of the Mayor in London? I watched his response to this and it

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sounded so much like how I responded to the attacks 12 years ago. And the

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fact that with all of this hysteria about Islamophobia and so on and

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Muslim terrorism, the people in London voted for the Mayor who was

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Muslim shows we are a great city and will not be divided by a few

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embittered and disturbed terrorists. Thank you.

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Last month, Max Hill, the barrister who's just

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been appointed to be the independent reviewer

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of terrorism legislation, warned that that Isis militants

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are planning "indiscriminate attacks on innocent civilians".

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No-one can say the authorities have not been alert to the possibility.

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The threat level has been set at severe for some time.

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We should be clear that we still know nothing of the assailant

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Our security expert Mark Urban is with me.

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Mark, is it important that it is a single say last night or everyone is

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assuming that, is that more likely, less likely, Isis or other forms? We

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know more because the Assistant Commissioner of special operations

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at the Met made a statement as we were going on air, so he has said

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that they know who the person is, that it is somebody who they believe

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to have been inspired by international terrorism, was the way

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he couched it. Although I can't tell you who that person was, who carried

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out this act, the people I have been speaking to, tonight, are all

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working on the assumption that it was in the words of one of them, a

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Lee Rigby type incident. If you look a those individuals, they were both

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on the radar, the Lee Rigby ones of the security service and Counter

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Terrorism Command, but at the same time, it was a type of act which was

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not networked in the way that the 7/72005 attacks were, where you had

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people going to Pakistan for training, actually communications

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going back-and-forth, things that could have been discovered. Not

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enough on the radar to be under constant surveillance. As a result

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of 7/7 what was of the security chiefs was saying to me at that

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time, he was saying, look, we extended the net wider was the way

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he put it. As a result of that, we come across a lot more people, with

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radical inclinations and there is concern, among those people who

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watch this community, that if this then emerges well, today's at tagger

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was somebody who had been in jail or who had been run in by the police,

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they then get blamed, because they are casting the net wider, but this

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is a new type of thing, that is inspired by. It is not the #340dle

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used on 7/7, we have seen that in other European countries with

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vehicles being used. It is a different model which frankly,

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pretty much anyone could do. Is it, would it be right to look at, to

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frame a lot of this less in religion or upon ticks and more in mental

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health and to think about these people as being... Insane rather

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than thoughtfully inspired by some ideology, just the latest version of

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insanity. As you know that gets into the culture war's arguments about

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terrorism, the nature of terrorism, with some saying you never refer to

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neo-Nazis as terrorists you say they are mentally ill, I mean look, there

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is all sorts of fang fors in this, some could say that anyone who goes

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to Syria to fight in Egyptian had is not going -- Jihad is not going to

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be the same balance of mind as the rest of us. But there is still

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ideology, it is all part of the picture. Well let us look at your

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report on the issues raised by all of this.

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There had been so many rehearsals of scenarios like this in all sorts of

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environments. From the Thames, to the streets, to the London

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underground. And underlying all the drills, the conviction at whoever

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inspired today's attacker the Islamic State group promised to

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strike Britain. I think it was only a matter of time before an attack

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like this happened, because IS had rallied its supporters round the

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world by saying attack where ever, and whenever you can. And what we

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saw today was a very low cost attack, it was a vehicle attacking

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people on the street, and this is not something that no matter how

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many security measures a country can take, could have been fully

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prevented. After the Nice attacks in which an say last night used a truck

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to mow people down, Islamic State promised again to hit the British.

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In the past two years, counter-terrorist chiefs say that 13

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plots have been foiled in Britain. Today, though, the Met's Assistant

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Commissioner for special operations had to count the cost of one that

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had got through. My thoughts are with all those who

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have been affected by today's attack. As a service we have lost

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one of our own as he acted to protect the public and his

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colleague, this is a day we planned for, but we hoped would never

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happen. Sadly it is now a reality. We will continue to dual we can, to

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protect the people of London. -- do all. Is The Metropolitan Police have

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a tight grip on the illegal firearms market in London, and that has given

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them a confidence they could prevent a kind of Mumbai or Paris sort of

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attack, with multiple gunmen on the streets. But of course, what they

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can't stop, is an individual using a car and a kitchen knife.

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What many of these attacks do have in common, and this happened with

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the murder of Lee Rigby, is that the attackers are already well-known to

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security agencies. It isn't yet clear whether that was the case in

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London today, but with hundreds involved in militant Islam, the

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problem remains one of resources, and calculated risks. The UK has one

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of the best security services in Europe, if not the world, and I know

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that the security services in the UK have foiled a number of plots, that

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the public do not necessarily know about, and as I said, the problem is

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you can't fully immunise a country against someone driving a vehicle

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and attacking people that way, but the more complex plots certainly the

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UK intelligence services is and security services have done a very

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good job of protecting British citizens from those kinds of

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incidents. There are a great many investigative

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avenues ahead for the police and MI5 now. Mapping the attacker's

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contacts, asking themselves about whether any warnings were missed,

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that gave an indication that he had decided to mount the crimes we saw

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today. Well before we move on the Met

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police has released this image of Keith Palmer, the policeman who was

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killed today. Husband and father aged 48.

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Grant Shapps, the Tory MP and former party chairman,

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was caught up in today's events, and he's in Westminster now.

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You were in old palace yard. Yes, New Palace Yard, and as we were

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walking through, to go to that vote, walking, chatting as we went, there

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is a lot of commotion, I looked round, police had their guns raised,

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pointing in the direction of, of the attacker, and we heard three shots,

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I think, perhaps four, ring out, and immediately, you know you are in a

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situation which is not just, you know a protestors has climbed over

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the fence, a police officer appeared immediately, dropped to the ground,

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get to the ground, get to the ground, get back, find a secure

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path, and we on our hands and knees, worked our way back to a place where

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we could go further into the Commons itself. And at that point I realised

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that the vote was still ongoing but now colleagues were stopped in their

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tracks from getting to the Commons chamber, and I went straight to the

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chamber and spoke to the Deputy Speaker, to tell him that he needed

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to stop the vote, probably suspend the House because there was a

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serious attack outside. What did you think was happening, did you, I mean

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did you think this was a full scale attack on the Palace of Westminster,

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while you were lying on the ground, total to get down, what were you

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thinking? Well, you know, as with all these things when you are in the

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moment, you are trying to work out what is going on, how serious it is,

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tries to, you know get out the way as fast as possible. As it happens

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as a minister I went to Mogadishu and I had security training for that

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event. Never used it in Mogadishu, it was fine while I was there, I

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never thought I would first get to experience and you know use that in

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Westminster, but it did give me a sense of what you want to do is get

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out the way as fast as possible. You have no idea whether there is going

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to be a follow up or other people involved or what have you, that I

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have to say, the one thing there was no panic, there was no great

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commotion, people moved calmly, got into the chamber, other groups were

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held elsewhere, I was with a whole bunch in the chamber, probably 400

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of us for about five here hours after that, and it was the Commons

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at its best with people trying to help each other out. I want to say

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this police officer, Keith Palmer, who we all knew from the entrance

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gate, and will have said good morning to or whatever, thoughts go

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out to him and to the three other members of the public, who were

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murdered in this pointless totally pointless attack today. And after

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those attack, there were attempts, to resuscitate Bowe the attacker and

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-- both the attacker and Keith Palmer. And it was your colleague

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making the efforts to resuscitate Keith Palmer. He was a fellow

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Foreign Office minister of mine and somebody who has experienced

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terrorism in his family, before with his brother, killed in an attack. He

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went straight to the scene, and as the pictures showed, tried to bring

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that police officer back. But, I mean it is an extraordinary day in

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Parliament. I think the key is, as the Prime Minister said, tomorrow,

:25:08.:25:11.

we will sit again, and the pointlessness of attack like this, I

:25:12.:25:15.

think will be crystal clear, it doesn't change, this thousand year

:25:16.:25:20.

old mother of all Parliaments behind us, to have another attack, it has

:25:21.:25:24.

happened before, I guess nearly 40 years ago now, with Airey Neave,

:25:25.:25:27.

almost in the same location, just underneath that location, in the car

:25:28.:25:32.

park on that occasion, it won't change our desire to have a

:25:33.:25:36.

Parliament that the public can access, that our constituents can

:25:37.:25:41.

see us in and represents the best of the world's democracy. Grant Shapps,

:25:42.:25:43.

thank you very much. We asked the Government

:25:44.:25:46.

and the Mayor of London to come The Shadow Home Secretary,

:25:47.:25:49.

Dianne Abbott, joins us. Your reaction to the events? I was

:25:50.:26:00.

in lockdown in the chamber, for five hours. MPs stayed calm but it was

:26:01.:26:06.

frightening. We didn't know whether it was part of a series of attacks

:26:07.:26:10.

round Westminster or London, when we heard about the deaths, five in all,

:26:11.:26:14.

including the say last night, particularly the death of the

:26:15.:26:18.

policeman, that we saw, you know, every day, coming in, people were

:26:19.:26:23.

very moved. Security of Parliament. Do you look at what happened today,

:26:24.:26:30.

as the security works, or do you see this as now needing a view of what

:26:31.:26:35.

the security is? I mean the bloke runs in, but he, he is stopped by a

:26:36.:26:40.

policeman. He didn't get in the bidding, he didn't get very far, we

:26:41.:26:44.

have to get the facts about what actually happened, we need to review

:26:45.:26:49.

it, I think it is very important to have a balance between keeping

:26:50.:26:53.

people safe and remember, 2000 people work on the Parliamentary

:26:54.:26:56.

estate but keeping Parliament open and accessible to the public.

:26:57.:27:00.

Security in Parliament is higher than I have ever known it I would

:27:01.:27:03.

hate to have a Parliament that was cut off from the public. Even more,

:27:04.:27:08.

and the communications within Westminster, I think Mary Creagh was

:27:09.:27:14.

saying it was confused, these things will be confused because Nonos what

:27:15.:27:18.

is happening, did you feel you knew what was going on as fast as you

:27:19.:27:22.

would have liked? I was confident, 400 MPs in the chamber in lockdown,

:27:23.:27:26.

that we were getting information as soon as it could be verified. It

:27:27.:27:33.

was, it was frightening, but MPs stayed calm. How do we stop this?

:27:34.:27:38.

Now, you are not a fan of the prevent scheme which is the big

:27:39.:27:43.

expensive Government programme, that has been running, to, talk people

:27:44.:27:49.

out of radicalism and prevent it, how do you think, how do we stop it?

:27:50.:27:54.

I don't think the prevent scheme has been effective. That is my issue

:27:55.:28:00.

with it. It has maybe worked with some people but overall it is not

:28:01.:28:04.

effective in its own terms. The House of Commons is on the footprint

:28:05.:28:08.

of a medieval Palace, 2,000 people in and out every day, very hard to

:28:09.:28:14.

make it completely secure unless you are... It is not just about the

:28:15.:28:18.

House of Commons, Westminster Bridge is where the true horror was, most

:28:19.:28:23.

of the deaths were occur, and you are not going to be able to provide

:28:24.:28:28.

security on every bridge in every part of the country, that won't be a

:28:29.:28:34.

solution, how do you prevent, this is I suppose the nub of the problem,

:28:35.:28:39.

you don't think prevent is, who, you said it demonises communities, what

:28:40.:28:43.

do you do to guide people away from that course? We have to look where

:28:44.:28:46.

it has worked and where it has failed. Deem needing communities

:28:47.:28:51.

will not make us safer. But there is some work it has done that has

:28:52.:28:56.

worked. It is demonising communities to say there is an issue we a number

:28:57.:29:02.

of people who are persuaded to, tempted by mad radicalism. The truth

:29:03.:29:06.

is, when I go into universities and talk to young people, when I talk to

:29:07.:29:10.

communities some feel demonised, that is not helpful. There is

:29:11.:29:16.

practical work that can be done to show people, to reassure people that

:29:17.:29:21.

have a stake in society. Thank you very much indeed.

:29:22.:29:25.

A man armed with a motor car and knife causes death

:29:26.:29:27.

We can't stop people acquiring access to cars or to knives,

:29:28.:29:31.

This has become a real headache, since the Nice attack

:29:32.:29:35.

on Bastille Day last July, when a lorry was used

:29:36.:29:37.

Suddenly, that realisation, that individuals can wield great

:29:38.:29:42.

harm without explosives, was a game changer.

:29:43.:29:43.

Well, you would think the only way is to stop the people

:29:44.:29:48.

But if there are too many of them, that's not easy.

:29:49.:29:52.

I'm joined by Richard Barrett, who has held positions in MI5,

:29:53.:29:55.

served as director of global counter terrorism operations

:29:56.:29:58.

for the Secret Intelligence Service, and is now director

:29:59.:30:00.

And Sara Khan, CEO of the anti-Islamist charity Inspire,

:30:01.:30:04.

which supports and works alongside the government's counter-extremism

:30:05.:30:06.

Can we start on Prevent, we heard Diane Abbott's not new views on

:30:07.:30:27.

Prevent. How well isn't working? The government has said that there have

:30:28.:30:33.

been successes, 50 people have been stopped from travelling to Syria,

:30:34.:30:36.

including a number of children, there is work taking place around

:30:37.:30:41.

challenging far right extremism and providing support to vulnerable

:30:42.:30:44.

young people who are expressing extreme views so we know there is

:30:45.:30:50.

successful work happening. It is not perfect but we need to continue

:30:51.:30:54.

positive work but that burqas critical and it is important to

:30:55.:30:59.

realise that Prevent operates in a space where people are vulnerable to

:31:00.:31:05.

radicalisation but may not have necessarily committed a criminal act

:31:06.:31:12.

so it is preventing that by providing early intervention. The

:31:13.:31:19.

key development since 7-7, 12 years ago, this idea that these

:31:20.:31:23.

individuals are not networks, they are inspired by rather than joined

:31:24.:31:30.

up with forces like Isis, is Prevent good for those people wasn't aimed

:31:31.:31:34.

and devise an Europe with networks? Prevent was designed to be flexible

:31:35.:31:39.

to the nature of the threat and to the evolving threat, whether that is

:31:40.:31:44.

a lone wolf or dealing with different types of extremism and it

:31:45.:31:48.

is important to recognise that after the merger of Lee Rigby, the

:31:49.:31:53.

intelligence and security community made it clear that out of contest,

:31:54.:31:59.

the counterterrorism strategy, one of the most important strands is

:32:00.:32:03.

investing in Prevent, investing in early intervention and prevention is

:32:04.:32:08.

the most cost effective. Are you a supporter of Prevent? I am a

:32:09.:32:14.

supporter of Prevent in so far as it engages the community, the public,

:32:15.:32:21.

and Prevent is quite innovative with the UK as the first country to try

:32:22.:32:27.

this policy and it has had to be reinvented from time to time but

:32:28.:32:32.

nonetheless it has been worth trying and we must remember that Prevent is

:32:33.:32:36.

about radicalisation to extremism in any direction and we think back to

:32:37.:32:43.

the last attack, the last murder in the UK, Jo Cox, that was from a

:32:44.:32:51.

different form of extremist. Let us talk about the security and how we

:32:52.:33:00.

stop this time of thing. A car and a knife, ordinary objects, you cannot

:33:01.:33:04.

take those away, we can design roads so pedestrians are separated from

:33:05.:33:10.

motor vehicles. What is the response to what has happened? The correct

:33:11.:33:18.

response as a Prime Minister said and the Mayor of London, we carry

:33:19.:33:27.

on. This sort of thing cannot be prevented completely, it is bound to

:33:28.:33:29.

happen and the main way to reduce terrorism is to reduce the impact of

:33:30.:33:32.

terrorism, if terrorists did not have much impact they would not do

:33:33.:33:36.

it, they would find something else. That is unrealistic because if you

:33:37.:33:41.

launch an attack on Westminster Bridge you will have worldwide

:33:42.:33:45.

coverage, guaranteed. That is something to do with the choosing of

:33:46.:33:53.

this location. Have we reached an era where the bombs are not

:33:54.:33:56.

necessarily any more? You do not need explosives or to learn about

:33:57.:34:04.

explosives, has become easier to become a terrorist that can make a

:34:05.:34:08.

global impact? It is clear we are living in an era of extremism, we

:34:09.:34:15.

witnessed the murder of Jo Cox last year by far right extremists and BC

:34:16.:34:20.

the global rise of extremism and the reality is this type of terrorism is

:34:21.:34:24.

not going to go away any time soon and so we must continue with

:34:25.:34:29.

resolution to try to champion our values and counter extremism and

:34:30.:34:36.

radicalisation and invest and support police and security agencies

:34:37.:34:39.

to empower communities and to work with young people, at multipronged

:34:40.:34:46.

level defeat extremism. As bomb-making come less valuable as a

:34:47.:34:51.

skill? We saw the government yesterday and the American

:34:52.:34:55.

government taking action against carrying laptops onto planes from

:34:56.:35:00.

certain places and that was about explosives, the fear that computers

:35:01.:35:05.

or something like that could contain exposes so I think bomb-making is a

:35:06.:35:09.

real concern to the authorities but with the availability of a kitchen

:35:10.:35:12.

knife and a car, terrorism is available to anybody. If you look at

:35:13.:35:21.

today, did you think that this really could have been a great deal

:35:22.:35:26.

worse? Or did you think this was as bad as it could get? In a way, the

:35:27.:35:33.

security at the Palace of Westminster stopped getting in, he

:35:34.:35:36.

did not far. Tragically, taking a life in the process. But in a sense,

:35:37.:35:45.

I don't know if we should feel this way but this was quite a limited

:35:46.:35:49.

attack? You are absolutely right, terrible death of Keith Palmer but

:35:50.:35:54.

nonetheless he did not get very far before he was tackled and brought

:35:55.:35:59.

down, there was a huge police response, as we saw on the news.

:36:00.:36:05.

That is something to bear in mind. The protection is there. The other

:36:06.:36:09.

thing is this sort of thing is incredibly rare and the risk to any

:36:10.:36:13.

particular member of the public, that they might be in the wrong

:36:14.:36:17.

place at the wrong time, is so small as to not affect our way of life. We

:36:18.:36:24.

are beginning to lose count of how many smaller incidents are occurring

:36:25.:36:28.

here and in other countries every now and again, some other deranged

:36:29.:36:35.

individual doing something like this, normally not with the impact

:36:36.:36:39.

of today. Is it becoming more normal? It depends what you define

:36:40.:36:46.

as normal, is a commonplace? I do not think it is, in respect of the

:36:47.:36:52.

UK, we have been rather fortunate compare to other European countries

:36:53.:36:55.

and in the Middle East so we have to deal with this threat and continue

:36:56.:37:01.

to challenge extremism and fight those who promote terrorist ideas

:37:02.:37:05.

and beliefs and prepare and protect the country from terrorism. Thank

:37:06.:37:10.

you both very much indeed. Let us hope we're not talking about this

:37:11.:37:18.

again too soon. Richard Watson has some information on the attack?

:37:19.:37:22.

There has been speculation on wrong information on the internet but I

:37:23.:37:28.

have been speaking to the international centre for the study

:37:29.:37:31.

of radicalisation at Kings College and they have interesting research

:37:32.:37:35.

that is quite persuasive. They are telling me that they have evidence

:37:36.:37:40.

that the car used in this attack was hired from enterprise rentals at

:37:41.:37:47.

Birmingham on the 16th of March, just six days ago, that is

:37:48.:37:51.

information, we cannot confirm it but is interesting. The 16th of

:37:52.:37:56.

March, enterprise cars in Birmingham. Do we know if that was a

:37:57.:38:02.

continual rental? I do not know that. There are many different

:38:03.:38:07.

scenarios we would have to think about, wasn't stolen? Thank you very

:38:08.:38:09.

much. One of the strange

:38:10.:38:13.

things about these days is the normality of them -

:38:14.:38:14.

so much busy city It's not that people

:38:15.:38:17.

are not moved or affected, or wanting to talk about it,

:38:18.:38:20.

they just might as well be That sentiment came through in

:38:21.:38:23.

the Prime Minister's words Tomorrow morning, Parliament

:38:24.:38:26.

will meet as normal. And Londoners and others from around

:38:27.:38:30.

the world who have come here to visit this great city

:38:31.:38:36.

will get up and go People will board their trains,

:38:37.:38:39.

they will leave their hotels, And we will all move

:38:40.:38:46.

forward together. Joining me now is former editor

:38:47.:38:54.

of the Evening Standard And director of the think tank,

:38:55.:39:07.

Centre for London, Ben Rogers. Do you see this as an attack on city

:39:08.:39:21.

's? The city is such a tempting target. Big cities, Paris and

:39:22.:39:28.

Berlin? His recent attacks have been aimed at crowds and cities are all

:39:29.:39:34.

about crimes and it is easier, you are more vulnerable inner-city,

:39:35.:39:37.

every time you get on the Tube, I am vulnerable to attack but also in a

:39:38.:39:44.

way, cities where people help each other and some of the worst stories

:39:45.:39:48.

about child abuse and so on, they take place in closed institutions

:39:49.:39:54.

like orphanages and boarding schools. If you are walking down a

:39:55.:39:58.

country lane and a killer comes towards you, that is worse, walking

:39:59.:40:06.

down a city street... Exactly. Cities have a certain resilience.

:40:07.:40:11.

Simon, we have to choose on these occasions between minimising or

:40:12.:40:19.

maximising the response and this is a dilemma because you don't want to

:40:20.:40:22.

say this is nothing, 40 people injured and four innocent people

:40:23.:40:27.

tragically killed. On the other hand, you do not want to give them

:40:28.:40:34.

the publicity and sense of event that they want to create. That is

:40:35.:40:40.

what you have just done! There is a choice and the BBC has made the

:40:41.:40:44.

choice and they have opted with the terrorist. You cannot ignore it.

:40:45.:40:50.

Nobody is suggesting that, this is why I protest about the coverage you

:40:51.:40:55.

give to these incidents, you have a choice of prominence and the

:40:56.:40:59.

prominence given right now is aiding and abetting terrorism. I really

:41:00.:41:03.

feel that way, choose to treat this as a crime, under the IRA and PLO

:41:04.:41:10.

terrorists, they were treated as crimes, in this case, probably some

:41:11.:41:14.

crazy man who has gone gone mad has done something stupid and is dead,

:41:15.:41:19.

that is a crime. All of London people are doing crazy things with

:41:20.:41:22.

knives and guns and dying, this has taken place but said Parliament and

:41:23.:41:28.

people have died. This should be publicised but it is different from

:41:29.:41:33.

describing it with this culture of politics and Islam and religion and

:41:34.:41:40.

it is quite wrong and this is a new phenomenon, not on the part of the

:41:41.:41:43.

terrorists, this is a method of getting publicity and we give them

:41:44.:41:47.

the publicity. Do you agree? I do, partly. I was struck by how much

:41:48.:41:55.

coverage this has got. In London, we have a good story to tell about how

:41:56.:42:02.

although we have seen high levels of migration in recent years, we have

:42:03.:42:05.

managed very well and there are other migrant cities in the world,

:42:06.:42:09.

like New York, but what London has done is we invented ourselves as a

:42:10.:42:15.

migrant city and without any real pain. I think Simon would have put

:42:16.:42:22.

this on the front of his paper and the first seven or eight pages. I

:42:23.:42:27.

would have tried not to. First page, of course. The BBC led on the Nice

:42:28.:42:35.

attack for one week. What did the -- what Isis want them to do? That. The

:42:36.:42:43.

thing that. This getting as much attention is that it is happening

:42:44.:42:49.

more often and we do not want that. The IRA was interesting because it

:42:50.:42:52.

was directed at London and because of the crowds and quite

:42:53.:42:58.

deliberately, as I recall, it was downplayed, it was not ignored but

:42:59.:43:02.

downplayed and treated as a crime and the political significance of

:43:03.:43:08.

this was in a sense, it was Ireland and we understood it whereas we

:43:09.:43:13.

don't really understand Islam but there is this relentlessness of

:43:14.:43:18.

threat, menace, this publicity from the BBC, there was a drama a few

:43:19.:43:25.

weeks ago, publicity for terrorists. It is not the way to handle it.

:43:26.:43:31.

Always on these occasions, people come out, we heard the Prime

:43:32.:43:34.

Minister, this will not change us, we will not give in, it is almost a

:43:35.:43:41.

cliche. I do not know how we could let this change is? What would we

:43:42.:43:50.

do? It is very hard to do anything about that. It is extraordinary, the

:43:51.:43:57.

trend of these things, people do at once and others follow and it is-

:43:58.:44:02.

the security services to guess what is happening next. I think what

:44:03.:44:11.

Sadiq Khan and others are doing is talking the story up, this is a good

:44:12.:44:19.

story. This would have cost London millions in tourism and the more

:44:20.:44:22.

publicity, the more money it will cost. Thank you.

:44:23.:44:24.

Well, that's all we have time for tonight.

:44:25.:44:26.

But it is an interesting observation that while the news that someone

:44:27.:44:31.

is hell bent on killing as many ordinary people as possible could be

:44:32.:44:34.

seen as a sign of a country that is hateful or dysfunctional,

:44:35.:44:36.

there is a paradox that in aftermath of such on atrocity,

:44:37.:44:39.

you find everybody more harmonious than ever and united

:44:40.:44:41.

You heard the Prime Minister say the Commons and the Lords

:44:42.:44:45.

are scheduled to be back at work tomorrow.

:44:46.:44:47.

The tone will reflect unity rather than division.

:44:48.:44:49.

I'll be back with more tomorrow, but in the meantime - goodnight.

:44:50.:45:01.

It looks like there is some rain on the way tomorrow morning.

:45:02.:45:07.

Not for everybody but I think central and south western areas,

:45:08.:45:10.

including Wales, will have some rain first thing and the far south-west

:45:11.:45:13.

of the country will stay cloudy with spots of rain

:45:14.:45:15.

But the vast majority of the UK is in for a sunny day.

:45:16.:45:19.

The lion's share of the sunshine will be across the northern two

:45:20.:45:22.

Certainly Northern Ireland, Scotland and the North of England,

:45:23.:45:25.

right across the Pennines - a very different story tomorrow

:45:26.:45:28.

Look at all that clear weather from Yorkshire,

:45:29.:45:34.

The south-east, also a better day, no downpours

:45:35.:45:39.

But then the closer we get to the south coast, the thicker

:45:40.:45:45.

the cloud is and from the Isle of Wight, down through the West

:45:46.:45:48.

Country to the tip of Cornwall, I think there is a chance

:45:49.:45:51.

of encountering some rain at any time from morning

:45:52.:45:53.

Wales is not looking bad at all, apart from this southern tip

:45:54.:45:57.

so maybe Cardiff catching a few spots but for the bulk of

:45:58.:46:00.

Thursday into Friday, it looks like we're going to keep

:46:01.:46:04.

the dry weather through Friday and Saturday and Sunday looks

:46:05.:46:07.

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