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This programme contains scenes which some viewers | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
The terrorists chose to strike at the heart of the capital city, where | :00:00. | :00:15. | |
people of all nationalities, religions and cultures come together | :00:16. | :00:18. | |
to celebrate the values of liberty, democracy and freedom of speech. The | :00:19. | :00:24. | |
streets of Westminster, home to the world's oldest Parliament, are | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
ingrained with the spirit of freedom that echoes in some of the furthest | :00:29. | :00:29. | |
corners of the globe. There are few places that are a more | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
obvious target for a terror There are the crowds, | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
there's symbolism, and today, On Westminster Bridge, | :00:39. | :00:41. | |
a car was used as a weapon, causing at least three deaths | :00:42. | :00:47. | |
and multiple injuries, before driving past Big Ben | :00:48. | :00:49. | |
and crashing into the railings Then an occupant of the vehicle got | :00:50. | :00:51. | |
out and went on to stab He has just been named as Keith | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
Palmer, who was 48. There are, as always, questions | :00:57. | :01:06. | |
about the causes of these attacks, the measures we take to prevent them | :01:07. | :01:08. | |
and the effectiveness We will be discussing those | :01:09. | :01:11. | |
through the programme, but nowhere are there more cameras, | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
more police and passing journalists to witness | :01:16. | :01:17. | |
an attack than in that zone. Like many, I was in the area | :01:18. | :01:19. | |
and came out of Westminster station at 2.45pm to hear the sound of three | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
or four gunshots. A lot of people were running away, | :01:24. | :01:25. | |
many others were not, carrying on oblivious or perplexed | :01:26. | :01:28. | |
at what was happening. This was the scene, | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
then, from my phone. Across the road from the Tube, | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
a car has rammed the wall, there. An injured person is on the ground | :01:35. | :01:38. | |
and a cyclist trying to help. At this stage, we had no idea | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
that there had been deaths Most of us were looking | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
to see what had happened Very quickly, more police arrived - | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
from all directions. And the effort was made to clear | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
the public from the square. As Big Ben chimed 3pm, | :01:53. | :02:00. | |
there was a strange hush over Parliament Square, | :02:01. | :02:03. | |
with just the noise of police sirens in the background and a lot | :02:04. | :02:05. | |
of people just gazing and trying Well, John Sweeney has | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
been piecing together At around 2.40pm, a car drives on to | :02:09. | :02:46. | |
Westminster Bridge, mounted the pavement and ploughs into people in | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
its path. The vehicle crosses the bridge, passes Big Ben and slams | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
into the railings to the left. The attacker, armed with a knife, runs | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
around the corner and into the main gates of the Palace of Westminster. | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
He stabs a police officer. Eyewitnesses say that as he | :03:06. | :03:08. | |
approached a second officer, clutching his life, he was shot. The | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
first people to be hit with standing on the south bank of the river, by | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
this kiosk. This Danish teenager saw the horror. The people were just | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
lying on the ground. This man, the driver, but at first | :03:23. | :04:14. | |
the attacker had lost control of his vehicle. The car started speeding | :04:15. | :04:22. | |
up, the only by that was a light had changed, as he sped up, there was | :04:23. | :04:29. | |
the shot and he has taken three victims. As I was driving, I was | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
thinking, he has lost his balance or his brakes and then the second and | :04:35. | :04:40. | |
the third, I have to stop the new middle-of-the-road to point to the | :04:41. | :04:43. | |
other cars to stop because there were people in the | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
middle-of-the-road. People flying like football. I felt sorry for one | :04:48. | :04:54. | |
of the gentlemen, I do not know what happened but it is not something I | :04:55. | :04:57. | |
would like to witness everyday. Unconscious in the middle of the | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
road. Did you get a chance to see the gentleman driving the car? , my | :05:02. | :05:08. | |
attention was on what was happening, it was so quick, and after 30 | :05:09. | :05:17. | |
seconds I realised. Only one person. That is a crime against humanity. | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
Our next eyewitness, a former Polish Foreign Minister who filmed this | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
footage. We heard what sounded like metal on metal and we assumed it was | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
a collision but then we looked outside and I sold one person died | :05:33. | :05:38. | |
and another, I took my phone from a journalistic habit and SL five | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
people in all on the tarmac and on the pavement and then I understood | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
it must have been deliberate. In the chaos, a woman was reported to have | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
fallen into the tens. She was pulled out injured but alive. The attacker | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
then crashed his car into the railings just beyond Big Ben. | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
Hitting, it appears, yet another innocent bystander. My wife and I | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
came from the Westminster Underground and as they came up | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
looked across to Parliament and there was a car crashed into the | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
gate. And the police officers were running with machine guns and there | :06:18. | :06:23. | |
was a man down beside the car. After is settled in, I thought, I don't | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
like what is going on and I took my wife and her friend and got behind | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
concrete. Journalist Quentin Letts heard the car crash and ran to his | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
office window overlooking Parliament Square. The saw a thickset man in | :06:39. | :06:46. | |
black clothes coming through the gates were people would normally | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
drive cars into New Palace Yard, just below Big Ben. Add this man had | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
something in his hand, it looked like a stick of some sort. He was | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
challenged by a couple of policemen in yellow jackets and one of the | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
policemen fell down. And we could see the man in black waving his arm | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
in a way that suggested he was either stabbing or striking the | :07:13. | :07:19. | |
yellow jacketed police man. And one of the policemen ran to get help, | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
which was very quick to come. And then, this. I would say 15 yards, | :07:26. | :07:38. | |
perhaps. Two plainclothes guys with guns shouted at him, uttered what | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
sounded like a warning, he ignored that and they shot and two or three | :07:45. | :07:52. | |
times and he fell. Foreign Office Minister Tobias Ellwood administered | :07:53. | :07:55. | |
the kiss of life to the dying police officer. The thing London has been | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
dreading has finally happened, a terror attack, and this one on the | :08:00. | :08:05. | |
very heart of democracy. Inside the chamber, the Deputy Speaker halted | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
proceedings. I know how to suspend the city of the house, this house is | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
a splendid but please wait. These were the scenes in the mother of | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
Parliaments today. Chaos within. But murder without. | :08:20. | :08:22. | |
There has been a Scotland Yard briefing. It has confirmed five | :08:23. | :08:36. | |
dead, including the attacker at this point, 40 with injuries, they think | :08:37. | :08:38. | |
they know the identity of the assailant, they are not putting out | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
any name or telling us more about that, they have named the police | :08:44. | :08:49. | |
officer who was killed, that is Keith Palmer, a husband and father | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
aged 48. They say there will be extra officers on the streets of the | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
next few days. An important line is they think the attack was motivated | :09:00. | :09:01. | |
by international terror. It may not have been a surprise, | :09:02. | :09:03. | |
but it is still a shock. And the Prime Minister came out | :09:04. | :09:06. | |
of Number 10 this evening Once again, today, these | :09:07. | :09:09. | |
exceptional men and women ran towards the danger, | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
even as they encouraged others On behalf of the whole country, | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
I want to pay tribute to them. That they have lost one | :09:18. | :09:26. | |
of their own in today's attack only makes their calmness | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
and professionalism under pressure After the 7/7 attacks occurred, | :09:31. | :09:32. | |
Ken Livingstone was Mayor of London. He was in Singapore at the time | :09:33. | :09:45. | |
of the attack, helping London win the Olympics, | :09:46. | :09:48. | |
but captured the public mood in the aftermath, | :09:49. | :09:50. | |
with a well chosen speech. Good evening. I don't know what your | :09:51. | :10:00. | |
thoughts were when you heard London had been attacked again. Well, we | :10:01. | :10:07. | |
have known this was going to happen, the difference is back 12 years ago, | :10:08. | :10:15. | |
when 52 Londoners were killed, that was part of an international group | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
linked to international terrorists. The problem now is that most of the | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
recent terrorist attacks in Europe have been individual, angry, young | :10:27. | :10:33. | |
men, going out with the gun or knife or a lorry on a car killing people. | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
It is much more difficult to get the data about them to recognise who | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
they are and prepare for that. That is a problem. The nature of | :10:45. | :10:51. | |
terrorism in Europe has changed, it is individuals rather than | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
organisations. Give us some guidance as to what is going on at the | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
moment. What a Scotland Yard doing? Who was in charge at the moment? | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
What is the role of politicians at this point or is it delegated to the | :11:05. | :11:10. | |
police? We did delegate to the police. After the 911 attacks in New | :11:11. | :11:17. | |
York we started planning for this, we created a counterterrorism | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
organisation, very large, monitoring the people who could do things like | :11:24. | :11:30. | |
this, and vast amount of work went into that. Although we have seen | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
this horror today and the horror back 12 years ago with the attacks | :11:35. | :11:42. | |
on London, about every year, police stopped three or four attacks in | :11:43. | :11:49. | |
London. They are able to do that. But there will always be one | :11:50. | :11:52. | |
individual who can get through and can kill. You raise an interesting | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
point, is this something that is going to become a normal part of | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
life in capital are big cities in Europe and the West? Yes but we | :12:04. | :12:10. | |
cannot allow that to change the way we live. What was remarkable about | :12:11. | :12:17. | |
the terrorist attacks in 2005, in the weeks that followed, the | :12:18. | :12:19. | |
Metropolitan police did not come across a single incident where | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
Londoners had turned around and attacked or abused Muslims. | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
Londoners recognised what those terrorists wanted to do was to tear | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
us apart, to unleash a wave of hatred and antagonism and violence | :12:34. | :12:36. | |
and that is how we must respond to this. The Muslims that live in | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
London who have become Londoners are not responsible for what has | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
happened here. And we have to make certain that the terrorist attacks, | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
whether it is an international organisation or one individual, | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
angry, young man, cannot divide us. We have to be united. Ken | :12:55. | :13:01. | |
Livingstone, do you think the police are equipped, ready and able to deal | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
with the situation that faces them? Up to the job? We put vast amounts | :13:07. | :13:17. | |
of public money into actually building up the police to do with | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
this but also I have to say, in the last few days, Sadiq Khan made an | :13:22. | :13:27. | |
incredible statement, saying he was going to bring back the | :13:28. | :13:30. | |
neighbourhood patrols that I had when I was the Mayor of London and | :13:31. | :13:33. | |
they are very good because if people in a community see two or three | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
police officers that they get to know walking through the area, they | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
will come up and say, there is something odd going on in that | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
house... I am worried about this person. An individual is unlikely to | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
pick up the phone and say, can I talk to the counter terrorism unit. | :13:54. | :13:55. | |
But they will talk to the neighbourhood police officer. Sadiq | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
Khan's policy of bringing back neighbourhood patrols can be crucial | :14:01. | :14:07. | |
in making Londoners say. This is the first attack we have had under Sadiq | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
Khan, and Muslim Mayor, does this make this an important time for the | :14:12. | :14:19. | |
place of the Mayor in London? I watched his response to this and it | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
sounded so much like how I responded to the attacks 12 years ago. And the | :14:25. | :14:31. | |
fact that with all of this hysteria about Islamophobia and so on and | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
Muslim terrorism, the people in London voted for the Mayor who was | :14:36. | :14:41. | |
Muslim shows we are a great city and will not be divided by a few | :14:42. | :14:44. | |
embittered and disturbed terrorists. Thank you. | :14:45. | :14:48. | |
Last month, Max Hill, the barrister who's just | :14:49. | :14:50. | |
been appointed to be the independent reviewer | :14:51. | :14:52. | |
of terrorism legislation, warned that that Isis militants | :14:53. | :14:54. | |
are planning "indiscriminate attacks on innocent civilians". | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
No-one can say the authorities have not been alert to the possibility. | :15:00. | :15:02. | |
The threat level has been set at severe for some time. | :15:03. | :15:04. | |
We should be clear that we still know nothing of the assailant | :15:05. | :15:07. | |
Our security expert Mark Urban is with me. | :15:08. | :15:15. | |
Mark, is it important that it is a single say last night or everyone is | :15:16. | :15:24. | |
assuming that, is that more likely, less likely, Isis or other forms? We | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
know more because the Assistant Commissioner of special operations | :15:29. | :15:31. | |
at the Met made a statement as we were going on air, so he has said | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
that they know who the person is, that it is somebody who they believe | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
to have been inspired by international terrorism, was the way | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
he couched it. Although I can't tell you who that person was, who carried | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
out this act, the people I have been speaking to, tonight, are all | :15:49. | :15:51. | |
working on the assumption that it was in the words of one of them, a | :15:52. | :15:57. | |
Lee Rigby type incident. If you look a those individuals, they were both | :15:58. | :16:04. | |
on the radar, the Lee Rigby ones of the security service and Counter | :16:05. | :16:06. | |
Terrorism Command, but at the same time, it was a type of act which was | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
not networked in the way that the 7/72005 attacks were, where you had | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
people going to Pakistan for training, actually communications | :16:17. | :16:18. | |
going back-and-forth, things that could have been discovered. Not | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
enough on the radar to be under constant surveillance. As a result | :16:23. | :16:28. | |
of 7/7 what was of the security chiefs was saying to me at that | :16:29. | :16:34. | |
time, he was saying, look, we extended the net wider was the way | :16:35. | :16:37. | |
he put it. As a result of that, we come across a lot more people, with | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
radical inclinations and there is concern, among those people who | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
watch this community, that if this then emerges well, today's at tagger | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
was somebody who had been in jail or who had been run in by the police, | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
they then get blamed, because they are casting the net wider, but this | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
is a new type of thing, that is inspired by. It is not the #340dle | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
used on 7/7, we have seen that in other European countries with | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
vehicles being used. It is a different model which frankly, | :17:09. | :17:11. | |
pretty much anyone could do. Is it, would it be right to look at, to | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
frame a lot of this less in religion or upon ticks and more in mental | :17:18. | :17:23. | |
health and to think about these people as being... Insane rather | :17:24. | :17:29. | |
than thoughtfully inspired by some ideology, just the latest version of | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
insanity. As you know that gets into the culture war's arguments about | :17:35. | :17:37. | |
terrorism, the nature of terrorism, with some saying you never refer to | :17:38. | :17:45. | |
neo-Nazis as terrorists you say they are mentally ill, I mean look, there | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
is all sorts of fang fors in this, some could say that anyone who goes | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
to Syria to fight in Egyptian had is not going -- Jihad is not going to | :17:54. | :17:58. | |
be the same balance of mind as the rest of us. But there is still | :17:59. | :18:04. | |
ideology, it is all part of the picture. Well let us look at your | :18:05. | :18:07. | |
report on the issues raised by all of this. | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
There had been so many rehearsals of scenarios like this in all sorts of | :18:14. | :18:20. | |
environments. From the Thames, to the streets, to the London | :18:21. | :18:26. | |
underground. And underlying all the drills, the conviction at whoever | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
inspired today's attacker the Islamic State group promised to | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
strike Britain. I think it was only a matter of time before an attack | :18:35. | :18:40. | |
like this happened, because IS had rallied its supporters round the | :18:41. | :18:43. | |
world by saying attack where ever, and whenever you can. And what we | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
saw today was a very low cost attack, it was a vehicle attacking | :18:49. | :18:54. | |
people on the street, and this is not something that no matter how | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
many security measures a country can take, could have been fully | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
prevented. After the Nice attacks in which an say last night used a truck | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
to mow people down, Islamic State promised again to hit the British. | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
In the past two years, counter-terrorist chiefs say that 13 | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
plots have been foiled in Britain. Today, though, the Met's Assistant | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
Commissioner for special operations had to count the cost of one that | :19:25. | :19:27. | |
had got through. My thoughts are with all those who | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
have been affected by today's attack. As a service we have lost | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
one of our own as he acted to protect the public and his | :19:36. | :19:38. | |
colleague, this is a day we planned for, but we hoped would never | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
happen. Sadly it is now a reality. We will continue to dual we can, to | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
protect the people of London. -- do all. Is The Metropolitan Police have | :19:47. | :19:52. | |
a tight grip on the illegal firearms market in London, and that has given | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
them a confidence they could prevent a kind of Mumbai or Paris sort of | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
attack, with multiple gunmen on the streets. But of course, what they | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
can't stop, is an individual using a car and a kitchen knife. | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
What many of these attacks do have in common, and this happened with | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
the murder of Lee Rigby, is that the attackers are already well-known to | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
security agencies. It isn't yet clear whether that was the case in | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
London today, but with hundreds involved in militant Islam, the | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
problem remains one of resources, and calculated risks. The UK has one | :20:31. | :20:36. | |
of the best security services in Europe, if not the world, and I know | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
that the security services in the UK have foiled a number of plots, that | :20:42. | :20:47. | |
the public do not necessarily know about, and as I said, the problem is | :20:48. | :20:53. | |
you can't fully immunise a country against someone driving a vehicle | :20:54. | :20:59. | |
and attacking people that way, but the more complex plots certainly the | :21:00. | :21:02. | |
UK intelligence services is and security services have done a very | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
good job of protecting British citizens from those kinds of | :21:07. | :21:09. | |
incidents. There are a great many investigative | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
avenues ahead for the police and MI5 now. Mapping the attacker's | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
contacts, asking themselves about whether any warnings were missed, | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
that gave an indication that he had decided to mount the crimes we saw | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
today. Well before we move on the Met | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
police has released this image of Keith Palmer, the policeman who was | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
killed today. Husband and father aged 48. | :21:38. | :21:52. | |
Grant Shapps, the Tory MP and former party chairman, | :21:53. | :21:54. | |
was caught up in today's events, and he's in Westminster now. | :21:55. | :21:57. | |
You were in old palace yard. Yes, New Palace Yard, and as we were | :21:58. | :22:04. | |
walking through, to go to that vote, walking, chatting as we went, there | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
is a lot of commotion, I looked round, police had their guns raised, | :22:09. | :22:14. | |
pointing in the direction of, of the attacker, and we heard three shots, | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
I think, perhaps four, ring out, and immediately, you know you are in a | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
situation which is not just, you know a protestors has climbed over | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
the fence, a police officer appeared immediately, dropped to the ground, | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
get to the ground, get to the ground, get back, find a secure | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
path, and we on our hands and knees, worked our way back to a place where | :22:37. | :22:42. | |
we could go further into the Commons itself. And at that point I realised | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
that the vote was still ongoing but now colleagues were stopped in their | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
tracks from getting to the Commons chamber, and I went straight to the | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
chamber and spoke to the Deputy Speaker, to tell him that he needed | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
to stop the vote, probably suspend the House because there was a | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
serious attack outside. What did you think was happening, did you, I mean | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
did you think this was a full scale attack on the Palace of Westminster, | :23:09. | :23:11. | |
while you were lying on the ground, total to get down, what were you | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
thinking? Well, you know, as with all these things when you are in the | :23:16. | :23:18. | |
moment, you are trying to work out what is going on, how serious it is, | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
tries to, you know get out the way as fast as possible. As it happens | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
as a minister I went to Mogadishu and I had security training for that | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
event. Never used it in Mogadishu, it was fine while I was there, I | :23:32. | :23:35. | |
never thought I would first get to experience and you know use that in | :23:36. | :23:38. | |
Westminster, but it did give me a sense of what you want to do is get | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
out the way as fast as possible. You have no idea whether there is going | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
to be a follow up or other people involved or what have you, that I | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
have to say, the one thing there was no panic, there was no great | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
commotion, people moved calmly, got into the chamber, other groups were | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
held elsewhere, I was with a whole bunch in the chamber, probably 400 | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
of us for about five here hours after that, and it was the Commons | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
at its best with people trying to help each other out. I want to say | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
this police officer, Keith Palmer, who we all knew from the entrance | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
gate, and will have said good morning to or whatever, thoughts go | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
out to him and to the three other members of the public, who were | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
murdered in this pointless totally pointless attack today. And after | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
those attack, there were attempts, to resuscitate Bowe the attacker and | :24:35. | :24:37. | |
-- both the attacker and Keith Palmer. And it was your colleague | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
making the efforts to resuscitate Keith Palmer. He was a fellow | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
Foreign Office minister of mine and somebody who has experienced | :24:49. | :24:51. | |
terrorism in his family, before with his brother, killed in an attack. He | :24:52. | :24:57. | |
went straight to the scene, and as the pictures showed, tried to bring | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
that police officer back. But, I mean it is an extraordinary day in | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
Parliament. I think the key is, as the Prime Minister said, tomorrow, | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
we will sit again, and the pointlessness of attack like this, I | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
think will be crystal clear, it doesn't change, this thousand year | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
old mother of all Parliaments behind us, to have another attack, it has | :25:21. | :25:24. | |
happened before, I guess nearly 40 years ago now, with Airey Neave, | :25:25. | :25:27. | |
almost in the same location, just underneath that location, in the car | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
park on that occasion, it won't change our desire to have a | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
Parliament that the public can access, that our constituents can | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
see us in and represents the best of the world's democracy. Grant Shapps, | :25:42. | :25:43. | |
thank you very much. We asked the Government | :25:44. | :25:46. | |
and the Mayor of London to come The Shadow Home Secretary, | :25:47. | :25:49. | |
Dianne Abbott, joins us. Your reaction to the events? I was | :25:50. | :26:00. | |
in lockdown in the chamber, for five hours. MPs stayed calm but it was | :26:01. | :26:06. | |
frightening. We didn't know whether it was part of a series of attacks | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
round Westminster or London, when we heard about the deaths, five in all, | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
including the say last night, particularly the death of the | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
policeman, that we saw, you know, every day, coming in, people were | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
very moved. Security of Parliament. Do you look at what happened today, | :26:24. | :26:30. | |
as the security works, or do you see this as now needing a view of what | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
the security is? I mean the bloke runs in, but he, he is stopped by a | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
policeman. He didn't get in the bidding, he didn't get very far, we | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
have to get the facts about what actually happened, we need to review | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
it, I think it is very important to have a balance between keeping | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
people safe and remember, 2000 people work on the Parliamentary | :26:54. | :26:56. | |
estate but keeping Parliament open and accessible to the public. | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
Security in Parliament is higher than I have ever known it I would | :27:01. | :27:03. | |
hate to have a Parliament that was cut off from the public. Even more, | :27:04. | :27:08. | |
and the communications within Westminster, I think Mary Creagh was | :27:09. | :27:14. | |
saying it was confused, these things will be confused because Nonos what | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
is happening, did you feel you knew what was going on as fast as you | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
would have liked? I was confident, 400 MPs in the chamber in lockdown, | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
that we were getting information as soon as it could be verified. It | :27:27. | :27:33. | |
was, it was frightening, but MPs stayed calm. How do we stop this? | :27:34. | :27:38. | |
Now, you are not a fan of the prevent scheme which is the big | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
expensive Government programme, that has been running, to, talk people | :27:44. | :27:49. | |
out of radicalism and prevent it, how do you think, how do we stop it? | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
I don't think the prevent scheme has been effective. That is my issue | :27:55. | :28:00. | |
with it. It has maybe worked with some people but overall it is not | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
effective in its own terms. The House of Commons is on the footprint | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
of a medieval Palace, 2,000 people in and out every day, very hard to | :28:09. | :28:14. | |
make it completely secure unless you are... It is not just about the | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
House of Commons, Westminster Bridge is where the true horror was, most | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
of the deaths were occur, and you are not going to be able to provide | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
security on every bridge in every part of the country, that won't be a | :28:29. | :28:34. | |
solution, how do you prevent, this is I suppose the nub of the problem, | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
you don't think prevent is, who, you said it demonises communities, what | :28:40. | :28:43. | |
do you do to guide people away from that course? We have to look where | :28:44. | :28:46. | |
it has worked and where it has failed. Deem needing communities | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
will not make us safer. But there is some work it has done that has | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
worked. It is demonising communities to say there is an issue we a number | :28:57. | :29:02. | |
of people who are persuaded to, tempted by mad radicalism. The truth | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
is, when I go into universities and talk to young people, when I talk to | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
communities some feel demonised, that is not helpful. There is | :29:11. | :29:16. | |
practical work that can be done to show people, to reassure people that | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
have a stake in society. Thank you very much indeed. | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
A man armed with a motor car and knife causes death | :29:26. | :29:27. | |
We can't stop people acquiring access to cars or to knives, | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
This has become a real headache, since the Nice attack | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
on Bastille Day last July, when a lorry was used | :29:36. | :29:37. | |
Suddenly, that realisation, that individuals can wield great | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
harm without explosives, was a game changer. | :29:43. | :29:43. | |
Well, you would think the only way is to stop the people | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
But if there are too many of them, that's not easy. | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
I'm joined by Richard Barrett, who has held positions in MI5, | :29:53. | :29:55. | |
served as director of global counter terrorism operations | :29:56. | :29:58. | |
for the Secret Intelligence Service, and is now director | :29:59. | :30:00. | |
And Sara Khan, CEO of the anti-Islamist charity Inspire, | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
which supports and works alongside the government's counter-extremism | :30:05. | :30:06. | |
Can we start on Prevent, we heard Diane Abbott's not new views on | :30:07. | :30:27. | |
Prevent. How well isn't working? The government has said that there have | :30:28. | :30:33. | |
been successes, 50 people have been stopped from travelling to Syria, | :30:34. | :30:36. | |
including a number of children, there is work taking place around | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
challenging far right extremism and providing support to vulnerable | :30:42. | :30:44. | |
young people who are expressing extreme views so we know there is | :30:45. | :30:50. | |
successful work happening. It is not perfect but we need to continue | :30:51. | :30:54. | |
positive work but that burqas critical and it is important to | :30:55. | :30:59. | |
realise that Prevent operates in a space where people are vulnerable to | :31:00. | :31:05. | |
radicalisation but may not have necessarily committed a criminal act | :31:06. | :31:12. | |
so it is preventing that by providing early intervention. The | :31:13. | :31:19. | |
key development since 7-7, 12 years ago, this idea that these | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
individuals are not networks, they are inspired by rather than joined | :31:24. | :31:30. | |
up with forces like Isis, is Prevent good for those people wasn't aimed | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
and devise an Europe with networks? Prevent was designed to be flexible | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
to the nature of the threat and to the evolving threat, whether that is | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
a lone wolf or dealing with different types of extremism and it | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
is important to recognise that after the merger of Lee Rigby, the | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
intelligence and security community made it clear that out of contest, | :31:54. | :31:59. | |
the counterterrorism strategy, one of the most important strands is | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
investing in Prevent, investing in early intervention and prevention is | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
the most cost effective. Are you a supporter of Prevent? I am a | :32:09. | :32:14. | |
supporter of Prevent in so far as it engages the community, the public, | :32:15. | :32:21. | |
and Prevent is quite innovative with the UK as the first country to try | :32:22. | :32:27. | |
this policy and it has had to be reinvented from time to time but | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
nonetheless it has been worth trying and we must remember that Prevent is | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
about radicalisation to extremism in any direction and we think back to | :32:37. | :32:43. | |
the last attack, the last murder in the UK, Jo Cox, that was from a | :32:44. | :32:51. | |
different form of extremist. Let us talk about the security and how we | :32:52. | :33:00. | |
stop this time of thing. A car and a knife, ordinary objects, you cannot | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
take those away, we can design roads so pedestrians are separated from | :33:05. | :33:10. | |
motor vehicles. What is the response to what has happened? The correct | :33:11. | :33:18. | |
response as a Prime Minister said and the Mayor of London, we carry | :33:19. | :33:27. | |
on. This sort of thing cannot be prevented completely, it is bound to | :33:28. | :33:29. | |
happen and the main way to reduce terrorism is to reduce the impact of | :33:30. | :33:32. | |
terrorism, if terrorists did not have much impact they would not do | :33:33. | :33:36. | |
it, they would find something else. That is unrealistic because if you | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
launch an attack on Westminster Bridge you will have worldwide | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
coverage, guaranteed. That is something to do with the choosing of | :33:46. | :33:53. | |
this location. Have we reached an era where the bombs are not | :33:54. | :33:56. | |
necessarily any more? You do not need explosives or to learn about | :33:57. | :34:04. | |
explosives, has become easier to become a terrorist that can make a | :34:05. | :34:08. | |
global impact? It is clear we are living in an era of extremism, we | :34:09. | :34:15. | |
witnessed the murder of Jo Cox last year by far right extremists and BC | :34:16. | :34:20. | |
the global rise of extremism and the reality is this type of terrorism is | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
not going to go away any time soon and so we must continue with | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
resolution to try to champion our values and counter extremism and | :34:30. | :34:36. | |
radicalisation and invest and support police and security agencies | :34:37. | :34:39. | |
to empower communities and to work with young people, at multipronged | :34:40. | :34:46. | |
level defeat extremism. As bomb-making come less valuable as a | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
skill? We saw the government yesterday and the American | :34:52. | :34:55. | |
government taking action against carrying laptops onto planes from | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
certain places and that was about explosives, the fear that computers | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
or something like that could contain exposes so I think bomb-making is a | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
real concern to the authorities but with the availability of a kitchen | :35:10. | :35:12. | |
knife and a car, terrorism is available to anybody. If you look at | :35:13. | :35:21. | |
today, did you think that this really could have been a great deal | :35:22. | :35:26. | |
worse? Or did you think this was as bad as it could get? In a way, the | :35:27. | :35:33. | |
security at the Palace of Westminster stopped getting in, he | :35:34. | :35:36. | |
did not far. Tragically, taking a life in the process. But in a sense, | :35:37. | :35:45. | |
I don't know if we should feel this way but this was quite a limited | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
attack? You are absolutely right, terrible death of Keith Palmer but | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
nonetheless he did not get very far before he was tackled and brought | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
down, there was a huge police response, as we saw on the news. | :36:00. | :36:05. | |
That is something to bear in mind. The protection is there. The other | :36:06. | :36:09. | |
thing is this sort of thing is incredibly rare and the risk to any | :36:10. | :36:13. | |
particular member of the public, that they might be in the wrong | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
place at the wrong time, is so small as to not affect our way of life. We | :36:18. | :36:24. | |
are beginning to lose count of how many smaller incidents are occurring | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
here and in other countries every now and again, some other deranged | :36:29. | :36:35. | |
individual doing something like this, normally not with the impact | :36:36. | :36:39. | |
of today. Is it becoming more normal? It depends what you define | :36:40. | :36:46. | |
as normal, is a commonplace? I do not think it is, in respect of the | :36:47. | :36:52. | |
UK, we have been rather fortunate compare to other European countries | :36:53. | :36:55. | |
and in the Middle East so we have to deal with this threat and continue | :36:56. | :37:01. | |
to challenge extremism and fight those who promote terrorist ideas | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
and beliefs and prepare and protect the country from terrorism. Thank | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
you both very much indeed. Let us hope we're not talking about this | :37:11. | :37:18. | |
again too soon. Richard Watson has some information on the attack? | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
There has been speculation on wrong information on the internet but I | :37:23. | :37:28. | |
have been speaking to the international centre for the study | :37:29. | :37:31. | |
of radicalisation at Kings College and they have interesting research | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
that is quite persuasive. They are telling me that they have evidence | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
that the car used in this attack was hired from enterprise rentals at | :37:41. | :37:47. | |
Birmingham on the 16th of March, just six days ago, that is | :37:48. | :37:51. | |
information, we cannot confirm it but is interesting. The 16th of | :37:52. | :37:56. | |
March, enterprise cars in Birmingham. Do we know if that was a | :37:57. | :38:02. | |
continual rental? I do not know that. There are many different | :38:03. | :38:07. | |
scenarios we would have to think about, wasn't stolen? Thank you very | :38:08. | :38:09. | |
much. One of the strange | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
things about these days is the normality of them - | :38:14. | :38:14. | |
so much busy city It's not that people | :38:15. | :38:17. | |
are not moved or affected, or wanting to talk about it, | :38:18. | :38:20. | |
they just might as well be That sentiment came through in | :38:21. | :38:23. | |
the Prime Minister's words Tomorrow morning, Parliament | :38:24. | :38:26. | |
will meet as normal. And Londoners and others from around | :38:27. | :38:30. | |
the world who have come here to visit this great city | :38:31. | :38:36. | |
will get up and go People will board their trains, | :38:37. | :38:39. | |
they will leave their hotels, And we will all move | :38:40. | :38:46. | |
forward together. Joining me now is former editor | :38:47. | :38:54. | |
of the Evening Standard And director of the think tank, | :38:55. | :39:07. | |
Centre for London, Ben Rogers. Do you see this as an attack on city | :39:08. | :39:21. | |
's? The city is such a tempting target. Big cities, Paris and | :39:22. | :39:28. | |
Berlin? His recent attacks have been aimed at crowds and cities are all | :39:29. | :39:34. | |
about crimes and it is easier, you are more vulnerable inner-city, | :39:35. | :39:37. | |
every time you get on the Tube, I am vulnerable to attack but also in a | :39:38. | :39:44. | |
way, cities where people help each other and some of the worst stories | :39:45. | :39:48. | |
about child abuse and so on, they take place in closed institutions | :39:49. | :39:54. | |
like orphanages and boarding schools. If you are walking down a | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
country lane and a killer comes towards you, that is worse, walking | :39:59. | :40:06. | |
down a city street... Exactly. Cities have a certain resilience. | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
Simon, we have to choose on these occasions between minimising or | :40:12. | :40:19. | |
maximising the response and this is a dilemma because you don't want to | :40:20. | :40:22. | |
say this is nothing, 40 people injured and four innocent people | :40:23. | :40:27. | |
tragically killed. On the other hand, you do not want to give them | :40:28. | :40:34. | |
the publicity and sense of event that they want to create. That is | :40:35. | :40:40. | |
what you have just done! There is a choice and the BBC has made the | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
choice and they have opted with the terrorist. You cannot ignore it. | :40:45. | :40:50. | |
Nobody is suggesting that, this is why I protest about the coverage you | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
give to these incidents, you have a choice of prominence and the | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
prominence given right now is aiding and abetting terrorism. I really | :41:00. | :41:03. | |
feel that way, choose to treat this as a crime, under the IRA and PLO | :41:04. | :41:10. | |
terrorists, they were treated as crimes, in this case, probably some | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
crazy man who has gone gone mad has done something stupid and is dead, | :41:15. | :41:19. | |
that is a crime. All of London people are doing crazy things with | :41:20. | :41:22. | |
knives and guns and dying, this has taken place but said Parliament and | :41:23. | :41:28. | |
people have died. This should be publicised but it is different from | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
describing it with this culture of politics and Islam and religion and | :41:34. | :41:40. | |
it is quite wrong and this is a new phenomenon, not on the part of the | :41:41. | :41:43. | |
terrorists, this is a method of getting publicity and we give them | :41:44. | :41:47. | |
the publicity. Do you agree? I do, partly. I was struck by how much | :41:48. | :41:55. | |
coverage this has got. In London, we have a good story to tell about how | :41:56. | :42:02. | |
although we have seen high levels of migration in recent years, we have | :42:03. | :42:05. | |
managed very well and there are other migrant cities in the world, | :42:06. | :42:09. | |
like New York, but what London has done is we invented ourselves as a | :42:10. | :42:15. | |
migrant city and without any real pain. I think Simon would have put | :42:16. | :42:22. | |
this on the front of his paper and the first seven or eight pages. I | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
would have tried not to. First page, of course. The BBC led on the Nice | :42:28. | :42:35. | |
attack for one week. What did the -- what Isis want them to do? That. The | :42:36. | :42:43. | |
thing that. This getting as much attention is that it is happening | :42:44. | :42:49. | |
more often and we do not want that. The IRA was interesting because it | :42:50. | :42:52. | |
was directed at London and because of the crowds and quite | :42:53. | :42:58. | |
deliberately, as I recall, it was downplayed, it was not ignored but | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
downplayed and treated as a crime and the political significance of | :43:03. | :43:08. | |
this was in a sense, it was Ireland and we understood it whereas we | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
don't really understand Islam but there is this relentlessness of | :43:14. | :43:18. | |
threat, menace, this publicity from the BBC, there was a drama a few | :43:19. | :43:25. | |
weeks ago, publicity for terrorists. It is not the way to handle it. | :43:26. | :43:31. | |
Always on these occasions, people come out, we heard the Prime | :43:32. | :43:34. | |
Minister, this will not change us, we will not give in, it is almost a | :43:35. | :43:41. | |
cliche. I do not know how we could let this change is? What would we | :43:42. | :43:50. | |
do? It is very hard to do anything about that. It is extraordinary, the | :43:51. | :43:57. | |
trend of these things, people do at once and others follow and it is- | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
the security services to guess what is happening next. I think what | :44:03. | :44:11. | |
Sadiq Khan and others are doing is talking the story up, this is a good | :44:12. | :44:19. | |
story. This would have cost London millions in tourism and the more | :44:20. | :44:22. | |
publicity, the more money it will cost. Thank you. | :44:23. | :44:24. | |
Well, that's all we have time for tonight. | :44:25. | :44:26. | |
But it is an interesting observation that while the news that someone | :44:27. | :44:31. | |
is hell bent on killing as many ordinary people as possible could be | :44:32. | :44:34. | |
seen as a sign of a country that is hateful or dysfunctional, | :44:35. | :44:36. | |
there is a paradox that in aftermath of such on atrocity, | :44:37. | :44:39. | |
you find everybody more harmonious than ever and united | :44:40. | :44:41. | |
You heard the Prime Minister say the Commons and the Lords | :44:42. | :44:45. | |
are scheduled to be back at work tomorrow. | :44:46. | :44:47. | |
The tone will reflect unity rather than division. | :44:48. | :44:49. | |
I'll be back with more tomorrow, but in the meantime - goodnight. | :44:50. | :45:01. | |
It looks like there is some rain on the way tomorrow morning. | :45:02. | :45:07. | |
Not for everybody but I think central and south western areas, | :45:08. | :45:10. | |
including Wales, will have some rain first thing and the far south-west | :45:11. | :45:13. | |
of the country will stay cloudy with spots of rain | :45:14. | :45:15. | |
But the vast majority of the UK is in for a sunny day. | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
The lion's share of the sunshine will be across the northern two | :45:20. | :45:22. | |
Certainly Northern Ireland, Scotland and the North of England, | :45:23. | :45:25. | |
right across the Pennines - a very different story tomorrow | :45:26. | :45:28. | |
Look at all that clear weather from Yorkshire, | :45:29. | :45:34. | |
The south-east, also a better day, no downpours | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
But then the closer we get to the south coast, the thicker | :45:40. | :45:45. | |
the cloud is and from the Isle of Wight, down through the West | :45:46. | :45:48. | |
Country to the tip of Cornwall, I think there is a chance | :45:49. | :45:51. | |
of encountering some rain at any time from morning | :45:52. | :45:53. | |
Wales is not looking bad at all, apart from this southern tip | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
so maybe Cardiff catching a few spots but for the bulk of | :45:58. | :46:00. | |
Thursday into Friday, it looks like we're going to keep | :46:01. | :46:04. | |
the dry weather through Friday and Saturday and Sunday looks | :46:05. | :46:07. |