23/03/2017 Newsnight


23/03/2017

With Evan Davis. The latest on the Westminster terror attacks, including an interview with the security minister. Plus Hillary Clinton's campaign manager.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 23/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

SPEAKER: In respectful memory of those who lost their lives in

:00:08.:00:16.

yesterday's attack and of all the casualties of that attack we shall

:00:17.:00:19.

now observe a minute's silence. Politicians and the public

:00:20.:00:45.

pay their respects to the victims Khalid Masood was the man

:00:46.:00:53.

who attacked the heart of London. He had a history of convictions

:00:54.:00:59.

for violent crimes - Yesterday an act of terrorism tried

:01:00.:01:12.

to silence our democracy. But today we meet as normal, as generations

:01:13.:01:17.

have done before us and as future generations will continue to do. To

:01:18.:01:24.

deliver a simple message - we are not afraid.

:01:25.:01:27.

We'll ask what - if anything - we can do to stop another

:01:28.:01:30.

We'll ask the Security Minister if its time for more

:01:31.:01:33.

And - as Westminster Bridge re-opens we'll try and figure out

:01:34.:01:37.

The lights behind me turn green, the four by four moves forward and then

:01:38.:01:46.

it mounts the pavement. That's the moment when it is clear something is

:01:47.:01:48.

going wrong. The attack has begun. Perhaps the most striking thing

:01:49.:01:58.

about the man named today as yesterday's attacker is not

:01:59.:02:05.

that he was British-born - Nor that he had previous

:02:06.:02:08.

convictions, for public order offences, GBH and possession

:02:09.:02:11.

of offensive weapons. No, it is his age -

:02:12.:02:12.

he was 52 years old. That's a different profile to that

:02:13.:02:15.

of so many other attackers, who are characterised

:02:16.:02:18.

as young hot-heads. Although that is not believed to be

:02:19.:02:24.

his birth name. He personally hired the car used

:02:25.:02:37.

in the attack yesterday. As Richard Watson told us last

:02:38.:02:39.

night, it came from a branch of Enterprise Car Rental

:02:40.:02:42.

in Spring Hill, Birmingham. Masood gave his profession

:02:43.:02:44.

as "Teacher" when renting Well, here is Richard now,

:02:45.:02:46.

on what we know about the man. Terrorists are usually young, but

:02:47.:02:52.

the Westminster attack was carried out by one of the world's oldest,

:02:53.:02:57.

British citizen Khalid Masood. At 52 he was positively middle-aged.

:02:58.:03:05.

Khalid Masood was born in Kent on Christmas Day 1964. There is no

:03:06.:03:09.

birth listed with those details. Police say he used a number of

:03:10.:03:13.

aliases. He had a range of convictions. His first was in

:03:14.:03:19.

November 1983 for criminal damage. Others included GBH, possession of

:03:20.:03:24.

offensive weapons and public order offences. The last was for

:03:25.:03:28.

possession of a knife in December 2003. Police think he had been most

:03:29.:03:34.

recently living in the West Midlands. Police were searching for

:03:35.:03:37.

clues at a number of properties today. There were raids overnight in

:03:38.:03:42.

Birmingham in the Ladywood and Winson Green areas of the city.

:03:43.:03:47.

There has also been police activity in Wales, Forest gate in east

:03:48.:03:50.

London, Surrey and Sussex with eight arrests. In Birmingham where one

:03:51.:03:58.

woman was convinced that the man on the stretcher Khalid Masood, was her

:03:59.:04:00.

neighbour, who moved away two to three months ago. I spoke to him

:04:01.:04:10.

just once but it was just how are you? Not much conversation. He was a

:04:11.:04:14.

calm person. I feel terrorised and scared because I've lived in this

:04:15.:04:18.

house for 12 years and nothing like this has happened before and I could

:04:19.:04:23.

never imagine, I saw those things on the TV. The Enterprise car hire

:04:24.:04:28.

depot in Spring Hill, Birmingham, last night Newsnight revealed

:04:29.:04:31.

research by a team at Kings College London that showed the car used in

:04:32.:04:34.

the attack was hired from here. Using open source methodology we

:04:35.:04:39.

found out that the car was first registered in Essex, was then

:04:40.:04:43.

transferred over to Birmingham with Enterprise, the Spring Hill branch

:04:44.:04:49.

where it was rented on the 16th of March by Khalid Masood, six days

:04:50.:04:52.

before the attack which obviously begs the question, what was

:04:53.:04:56.

happening in the meantime? One focus for police is the missing six days,

:04:57.:05:02.

the car's movements. What I can confirm is that the man

:05:03.:05:07.

was British-born and that some years ago he was once investigated by MI5

:05:08.:05:12.

in relation to concerns about violent extremism. He was a

:05:13.:05:17.

peripheral figure. The case is historic. He was not part of the

:05:18.:05:21.

current intelligence picture. There was no prior intelligence of his

:05:22.:05:28.

intent or the plot, intensive investigations continue. This very

:05:29.:05:33.

early admission that Khalid Masood was on the radar seems to be an

:05:34.:05:38.

attempt to take the sting out of any criticism. Security sources also

:05:39.:05:43.

told us he was a peripheral figure. Newsnight understands MI5 has

:05:44.:05:46.

started a systematic re-evaluation of intelligence on Masood.

:05:47.:05:53.

The language is striking force of the term peripheral was also used to

:05:54.:05:56.

describe the London bombers Mohammad Sidique Khan. This programme

:05:57.:06:02.

revealed that in 2005 Mohammad Sidique Khan featured in MI5

:06:03.:06:05.

surveillance into an earlier plot and when that story was confirmed

:06:06.:06:10.

much later in a visual report he was once again described as a peripheral

:06:11.:06:16.

figure. You can see why they are sensitive.

:06:17.:06:18.

Security sources have told Newsnight that more than 3000 people in the UK

:06:19.:06:25.

are persons of interest in relation to violent extremism. Many will be

:06:26.:06:28.

low risk but sifting the wheat from the chaff is a huge challenge. The

:06:29.:06:33.

fact that the security service cannot offer 100% protection from

:06:34.:06:38.

such attacks in a liberal democracy is now an admission officials

:06:39.:06:44.

realise must be made and made early. Richard Watson there.

:06:45.:06:46.

Joining me is the former Head of the National Counter

:06:47.:06:48.

Terrorism Security Office, Chris Phillips.

:06:49.:06:49.

And Anas Altikriti, who's founder and CEO

:06:50.:06:51.

Before we go further, the age, Chris, surprised, 52? It's unusual

:06:52.:07:03.

but it is not out of the ordinary. In other countries we have had

:07:04.:07:08.

people of an old age but yes, it is unusual. It is unusual for a reason,

:07:09.:07:12.

that you tend to think the younger ones are just more prone to be

:07:13.:07:18.

radicalised, have more of an open mind to be brainwashed or whatever.

:07:19.:07:21.

Whether or not he has been brainwashed, or whether he is

:07:22.:07:24.

suffering from some sort of mental illness that is quite feasible as

:07:25.:07:29.

well. It is quite unusual. Do you also find the age surprising?

:07:30.:07:33.

Surprising in terms of it being out of sync with the most recent attacks

:07:34.:07:38.

that we've seen across Europe, probably. But I think that the

:07:39.:07:44.

playbook on terrorism and the profiles of prospective terrorists,

:07:45.:07:49.

I think that needs to be re-addressed. It has the hallmarks

:07:50.:07:59.

of a lone wolf attack. He used very low-tech, very primitive means, he

:08:00.:08:01.

didn't have any explosives, he didn't have any guns as such, a

:08:02.:08:07.

kitchen knife and a car which proved deadly in this particular

:08:08.:08:11.

circumstance, but nonetheless, I think the whole thing needs to be

:08:12.:08:14.

looked at. We really need to know more about this man. What we know

:08:15.:08:20.

now is that he was born and bred in Britain and we know that he had a

:08:21.:08:26.

catalogue of criminal offences. Smaller criminal offences, right.

:08:27.:08:29.

Let's drill down into this issue of how you prevent, and I use the word

:08:30.:08:33.

deliberately because that's the name of the government policy for doing

:08:34.:08:38.

it, how do you prevent people from becoming radicalised, and that is

:08:39.:08:42.

your department, Anas. We have this dilemma, gently, who you bring into

:08:43.:08:47.

the Prevent strategy? Only allow mainstream thinkers to help us take

:08:48.:08:53.

people away from the radicals, or do you allow people who you might call

:08:54.:08:59.

semi-radical to help woo the people from more extreme radicals? I think

:09:00.:09:04.

the main problem, you are talking about who to bring into Prevent, I

:09:05.:09:09.

think Prevent itself is a major problem and successive governments

:09:10.:09:15.

have proposed strategies that are built on baseless ideas and

:09:16.:09:22.

information about the community. The Muslim community is a very complex,

:09:23.:09:27.

very diverse mosaic of all sorts of cultures, backgrounds and traditions

:09:28.:09:35.

within Islam. Unfortunately Prevent has managed over the past, I would

:09:36.:09:40.

suggest, since 2005, to alienate more than 90% of that Muslim

:09:41.:09:45.

community. Therefore, it has proven to be divisive, rather than as we

:09:46.:09:48.

need today, for the whole community to come together and be in sync with

:09:49.:09:51.

the whole British public in finding this quite offensive... I know that

:09:52.:09:57.

David Cameron thought your group, he called you a political front for the

:09:58.:10:01.

Muslim Brotherhood and didn't want you to be used by the state to help

:10:02.:10:08.

sway people from more radical views. Do you see there is a dilemma that

:10:09.:10:13.

there are lots of people in the mainstream Muslim world whose views

:10:14.:10:17.

are acceptable and some whose views are abhorrent to most British

:10:18.:10:20.

people? It depends whether we are talking about political views. I

:10:21.:10:24.

think this is where for instance David Cameron found my organisation

:10:25.:10:28.

to be distasteful to him, and why for instance we are being shut out

:10:29.:10:33.

from any kind of consultation. Not that we are actively seeking it, we

:10:34.:10:37.

are busy enough. But the problem is you either talk to people who are

:10:38.:10:40.

either engaged on the streets and who get to meet the vulnerable pool

:10:41.:10:45.

of people who might be driven, and might be attracted to extremism and

:10:46.:10:50.

radicalism, or if you wish you can talk to those who say the things you

:10:51.:10:55.

like, who stand by the politics of government. That's the dilemma. The

:10:56.:10:59.

problem is we are facing what I would suggest is quite a serious

:11:00.:11:03.

threat and governments need to rise above the churlishness honoured to

:11:04.:11:09.

be honest. So in a word... Saying I don't like what you think and

:11:10.:11:13.

therefore I will not engage with you. So you would engage more

:11:14.:11:18.

widely? Not more widely but with the people that matter, even though they

:11:19.:11:20.

might harbour political views the government disagrees with. Chris

:11:21.:11:24.

Kermode let's talk about the security aspect of this. First of

:11:25.:11:29.

all, would you consider this an intelligence failure? The fact he

:11:30.:11:33.

was known and not being watched, is that by definition an intelligence

:11:34.:11:38.

failure? No, absolutely not, and there will be a rush to blame people

:11:39.:11:42.

for this, as there always is, and we must steer away from it. This is a

:11:43.:11:47.

person that has passed among many years ago, involved in violence. May

:11:48.:11:51.

have been on the periphery of terrorism in some way. There are too

:11:52.:11:56.

many people with that profile for you to watch them all? Literally

:11:57.:12:00.

thousands. If you think of surveillance on one person for 24

:12:01.:12:05.

hours is going to be 850 person police officer job, we haven't got

:12:06.:12:08.

enough police officers in the world to do that. -- a 50 person police

:12:09.:12:14.

officer job. A lot of people were surprised it was a protection

:12:15.:12:17.

officer who shot him rather than one of the police at the Palace of

:12:18.:12:21.

Westminster. You need to understand how the Palace of Westminster works.

:12:22.:12:25.

The police are there almost as guests of the Parliamentary team and

:12:26.:12:30.

have to carry the weapons they are given to some extent. Yes, it's

:12:31.:12:36.

interesting that there wasn't the machine gun guys nearby. But, of

:12:37.:12:42.

course, this was a success actually for the security of the Palace. He

:12:43.:12:48.

didn't get in. He walked five or six yards and was taken out. What would

:12:49.:12:53.

change? If you asked the police, guys, what would you do? What would

:12:54.:12:58.

you change? Would you say more guns and more armed officers? More

:12:59.:13:03.

Tasers? What do you think? The average officer is now moving

:13:04.:13:07.

towards being armed, however, there is an inclination to say we don't

:13:08.:13:10.

need to go down that route yet. The most important thing is there is

:13:11.:13:11.

enough resources given to the police to do the job properly.

:13:12.:13:25.

Tasers are an interesting one because if this officer had had a

:13:26.:13:27.

Taser, dealing with a knife attack is quite feasible. How many officers

:13:28.:13:30.

have tasers? A small amount who are on response teams, the important

:13:31.:13:32.

thing is to realise there are less officers on the street now than ever

:13:33.:13:35.

before and if this attack had happened anywhere but the most

:13:36.:13:37.

policed building in the country the results would have been different.

:13:38.:13:41.

We need to leave it there. Anas and Chris, thank you.

:13:42.:13:43.

After the 7/7 attack 12 years ago now, when the names of victims

:13:44.:13:46.

emerged, it was one of the first occasions that you could register

:13:47.:13:49.

just how international London had become; so many

:13:50.:13:51.

Well, yesterday's attack hit a tourist site, and it is not

:13:52.:13:56.

surprising that the victims there came from 11

:13:57.:13:58.

One man from Utah was among the dead, Kurt Cochran.

:13:59.:14:04.

And one British woman with a Spanish background also died - Aysha Frade.

:14:05.:14:07.

Boris Johnson was at the UN in New York today, and said

:14:08.:14:10.

the attack on London, was an attack on the world.

:14:11.:14:12.

John Sweeney has the story of what happened yesterday

:14:13.:14:14.

The horror started at 2:40pm. 24 hours on Westminster Bridge is open.

:14:15.:14:30.

But it's time to try and understand what happened here as best we can.

:14:31.:14:38.

The lights behind me turned green, the four by four moves forward and

:14:39.:14:41.

then it mounts the pavement. That's the moment when its clear something

:14:42.:14:44.

is going wrong. The attack has begun. The car was a four by four,

:14:45.:14:54.

Khalid Masood behind the wheel. The four by four is accelerating hard

:14:55.:14:57.

and here it hits the first group of people. There is an American

:14:58.:15:02.

standing here and he is hit so hard he is thrown over this wall. Kurt

:15:03.:15:08.

Cochran was in London to celebrate his 25th wedding anniversary. His

:15:09.:15:12.

wife was injured but survived. His death was announced today. I got a

:15:13.:15:19.

quick look over the wall and see this guideline on the ground. The

:15:20.:15:25.

doctors arrived two seconds after I see that. Sebastien Ramos, eating

:15:26.:15:28.

from Colombia, was cycling across the bridge on his way home. He was

:15:29.:15:36.

not moving. I stared at him for 20, 30 seconds and he just did not move.

:15:37.:15:43.

He was so white. Watch the white circle moving from right to left,

:15:44.:15:48.

that is Khalid Masood's four by four barrelling along the pavement at

:15:49.:15:54.

high speed. There's been an accident, a car has just mown down

:15:55.:15:59.

about three people on Westminster Bridge. People start calling 999 and

:16:00.:16:05.

hurrying to help the injured. Almost every tourist who comes to London

:16:06.:16:11.

comes to Westminster Bridge. This is one of the great selfie spots in

:16:12.:16:18.

London. There is a group of people here, among them a remaining

:16:19.:16:24.

architect. She is with a bloke in London, it's his birthday. And then

:16:25.:16:26.

this second group of people are ploughed through by Khalid Masood.

:16:27.:16:33.

This is the moment when she is thrown or jumps off the bridge. She

:16:34.:16:37.

was seen floating down the river but was rescued. Her condition is

:16:38.:16:44.

critical. Today Londoners and the world came to pay their respects.

:16:45.:16:48.

Three dead on the bridge at least. Why choose here? It would strike at

:16:49.:16:55.

the very heart of our democracy, the seat of our democracy at the Houses

:16:56.:16:58.

of Parliament. Plus maybe the tourist factor. This is always a

:16:59.:17:03.

honeypot for tourists. It's a beautiful bridge, beautiful setting.

:17:04.:17:10.

And that was possibly his motives. So at this point Khalid Masood had

:17:11.:17:14.

been driving at speed for 200 metres, maybe more, the length of

:17:15.:17:18.

Westminster Bridge. He comes here and wipes out a third group of

:17:19.:17:22.

people. Then there's a security barrier there and he's beginning to

:17:23.:17:32.

run out of road. My god. He wasn't done. He crashed below Big Ben,

:17:33.:17:36.

trapping one more bystander against the railings. Yesterday Westminster

:17:37.:17:42.

Bridge saw cruelty beyond belief, but also something else. As soon as

:17:43.:17:48.

I get to the bridge, so many people rushed to the victims trying to help

:17:49.:17:53.

them. The only thing I can do for them is pray for them. The story

:17:54.:18:01.

ended in Parliament with Masood taking one more life and then it was

:18:02.:18:05.

the end of him. This old Bridge has seen a lot in its time. Yesterday's

:18:06.:18:08.

horror was met today with resolution. Life and London goes on.

:18:09.:18:20.

Before we move on a video has emerged.

:18:21.:18:24.

Tonight a video has emerged of the Prime Minister being lead

:18:25.:18:27.

to a car in the House of Commons just moments after the attack.

:18:28.:18:31.

It's been released by the Sun newspaper.

:18:32.:18:32.

She is surrounded by protection officers.

:18:33.:18:37.

It is clearly a very tense situation.

:18:38.:18:42.

This morning she was back in the Commons.

:18:43.:18:44.

She said it would be open for business this

:18:45.:18:46.

As you'd expect it was a sombre occasion as MPs paid their respects

:18:47.:18:54.

to the victims of yesterday's attack.

:18:55.:18:55.

Members on all sides paid tribute to Keith Palmer -

:18:56.:18:58.

and to those who fought so valiantly to save him.

:18:59.:19:02.

We shall now observe a minute's silence.

:19:03.:19:17.

A police officer, PC Keith Palmer, was killed defending us,

:19:18.:19:20.

defending Parliament and defending Parliamentary democracy.

:19:21.:19:30.

He was every inch a hero and his actions will never be forgotten.

:19:31.:19:37.

PC Keith Palmer, who I first met 25 years ago as Gunner Keith Palmer

:19:38.:19:41.

at Headquarters Battery 100 Regiment, Royal Artillery.

:19:42.:19:45.

He was a strong, professional public servant.

:19:46.:19:53.

And it was a delight to meet him here again only a few months

:19:54.:19:57.

Not only did he show huge professionalism in putting his past

:19:58.:20:11.

training to the use and the hope that he had of rescuing

:20:12.:20:15.

the life of PC Keith Palmer, but of course it was in the middle

:20:16.:20:20.

of a terrorist attack and our right honourable friend

:20:21.:20:22.

is somebody who knows the trauma and tragedy of losing somebody

:20:23.:20:25.

This attacker and people like him are not of my religion,

:20:26.:20:37.

nor are they of our community, and we should condemn

:20:38.:20:39.

all of them who pretend to be of a particular religion,

:20:40.:20:42.

If they were of religion they would not be carrying

:20:43.:20:46.

We have to stay united and show them that they can't win on these grounds

:20:47.:20:51.

This was an horrific crime and it has cost lives and caused injury.

:20:52.:20:58.

But as an act of terror it has failed.

:20:59.:21:02.

It has failed because we are here and we are going to go

:21:03.:21:05.

Our political editor, Nick Watt, is here.

:21:06.:21:23.

Parliament, the Palace of Westminster, are there, since that

:21:24.:21:28.

security, for all the fact he did not get far, are their concerns

:21:29.:21:32.

about security? There are real concerns about senior MPs and senior

:21:33.:21:35.

peers that this attack could have been far worse. The BBC reported

:21:36.:21:42.

that Masood was shot dead light protection officers protecting the

:21:43.:21:45.

Defence Secretary Michael Fallon. In other words he was not shot by armed

:21:46.:21:50.

police attached to Parliament. I spoke to one former Cabinet minister

:21:51.:21:54.

who told me that had those protection officers not been on the

:21:55.:21:57.

Parliamentary estate, because of course ministers spend most of their

:21:58.:22:01.

time outside Parliament, then Khalid Masood could have ventured much

:22:02.:22:05.

further. Interesting in that statement the speaker made pretty

:22:06.:22:08.

clear there is going to be a lessons learned review launched. The other

:22:09.:22:13.

question people are asking, he was known to the police and MI5, was

:22:14.:22:18.

this an intelligence failure? That's what we had in Richard Watson's

:22:19.:22:23.

report, he was on the MI5 radar a number of years ago in connection

:22:24.:22:27.

with violent extremism, although he was a peripheral figure. Amber Rudd

:22:28.:22:30.

this evening told the BBC it would be wrong to blame the intelligence,

:22:31.:22:36.

MI5 for a failure. The reason why ministers believe there was not an

:22:37.:22:39.

intelligence failure if they believe that this attack exactly fitted the

:22:40.:22:43.

mould identified in recent years by Andrew Parker, the MI5

:22:44.:22:48.

director-general, talking about lone actors launching attacks, almost

:22:49.:22:51.

impossible to detect. Andrew Parker said these attacks would be of

:22:52.:22:55.

relatively low sophistication but of course they would be deadly.

:22:56.:22:59.

Interesting this use of intelligence will be investigated by Parliament

:23:00.:23:04.

intelligence and Security committee. They are taking the view that Andrew

:23:05.:23:07.

Parker's warning has clearly come true. Thank you.

:23:08.:23:09.

Earlier I spoke to the Security Minister - Ben Wallace.

:23:10.:23:12.

I asked him about reports it was a minister's close protection

:23:13.:23:14.

officer who shot Masood, and if there had been any other

:23:15.:23:17.

First of all I'm not going to speculate on the allegations that

:23:18.:23:23.

you make about who actually was involved in the shooting.

:23:24.:23:26.

I think what I can certainly say is that anybody who works

:23:27.:23:30.

there or goes there and I know you've been there yourself,

:23:31.:23:32.

there are plenty of armed officers around the House of Commons

:23:33.:23:37.

and House of Lords, both inside and outside and also

:23:38.:23:39.

the area, the sort of government quarter, there's a whole range

:23:40.:23:43.

of police forces that cover that area.

:23:44.:23:44.

Diplomatic protection, Metropolitan Police and other police

:23:45.:23:49.

and there are plenty of guns available and on show

:23:50.:23:51.

OK, let's take another area, that of surveillance.

:23:52.:23:57.

Again it's an area where you need to strike the right balance

:23:58.:24:00.

between keeping an eye on bad people and respecting individual liberties.

:24:01.:24:06.

Are you satisfied that balance is right at the moment?

:24:07.:24:09.

We have, we think, got the balance right.

:24:10.:24:15.

That's why we passed the Investigatory Powers Act

:24:16.:24:17.

through Parliament only recently supported by all parties

:24:18.:24:19.

in the House of Commons and the House of Lords.

:24:20.:24:23.

But it is a balance that we constantly review.

:24:24.:24:27.

In law we have to do everything that is proportionate and necessary.

:24:28.:24:30.

And despite the criticisms we get from a whole range of commentators

:24:31.:24:33.

and sometimes people in the media will say that the surveillance state

:24:34.:24:36.

Actually from what I see first hand, our surveillance officers

:24:37.:24:45.

and police absolutely stick to that law and try their very best to make

:24:46.:24:48.

It's a big challenge and a big responsibility for those people.

:24:49.:24:53.

It is, but you take someone like Khalid Masood, who is known

:24:54.:24:56.

to the police but not thought to be so risky that needs

:24:57.:24:59.

Is there a category of person into which he would have fallen where

:25:00.:25:11.

you will now say we should be erring on the side of keeping a closer

:25:12.:25:15.

That is a general principle about to what extent we decide

:25:16.:25:19.

to put people under surveillance and have that public debate,

:25:20.:25:22.

which is what we did during the Investigatory Powers Act.

:25:23.:25:24.

A number of people have come to the High Court and even

:25:25.:25:27.

It's not about the act, it's about the resources

:25:28.:25:33.

you are willing to put into following those people

:25:34.:25:36.

No, no, it's actually about the legal framework

:25:37.:25:39.

I ask regularly our intelligence services and police if they have

:25:40.:25:43.

enough resources in the area of counterterrorism specifically.

:25:44.:25:48.

That's why we gave them a 30% real terms increase on counterterrorism

:25:49.:25:51.

funding across Whitehall to deal with the problem.

:25:52.:25:53.

We police by consent in this society and we have to try

:25:54.:26:01.

and make the balance of what is politically possible.

:26:02.:26:04.

Some of my colleagues are authoritarian,

:26:05.:26:06.

These things wouldn't get through Parliament unless we try

:26:07.:26:15.

and seek a balance to make sure the law is in place to do the job.

:26:16.:26:19.

And I think this is something that's really important

:26:20.:26:21.

about intelligence here and it happens all too frequently.

:26:22.:26:23.

A long time ago I was an intelligence officer

:26:24.:26:25.

in Northern Ireland, I dealt with intelligence

:26:26.:26:27.

Intelligence is not 100% perfect, it's often scraps or tiny

:26:28.:26:35.

And intelligence officers and police have to try and stick those together

:26:36.:26:39.

and make judgments on very often impartial information.

:26:40.:26:47.

Those judgments are high risk, often, but more often

:26:48.:26:49.

than not they get it right, and no one ever does programmes

:26:50.:26:52.

about the 400 pieces of intelligence that were dealt with correctly

:26:53.:26:55.

They always try and see or make allegations

:26:56.:26:58.

I wasn't implying it was an intelligence failure.

:26:59.:27:03.

I'm just asking whether there's a lesson to be learnt from this.

:27:04.:27:09.

Both on guns and surveillance your answer has been, effectively,

:27:10.:27:12.

you are fairly satisfied with where we are.

:27:13.:27:16.

And I suppose the question that leads me to is whether we just have

:27:17.:27:19.

to accept there is a certain inevitability about the odd lone

:27:20.:27:25.

wolf attackers wielding great harm using weapons like cars or knives?

:27:26.:27:31.

Well, we have consistently said it's not a matter if but when.

:27:32.:27:34.

We have dealt with terrorism in this country for decades.

:27:35.:27:39.

Originally, from all over the world, including in my childhood

:27:40.:27:42.

Northern Irish terrorism, and now obviously international

:27:43.:27:51.

We have always said, look, we know these things are very

:27:52.:27:55.

Some of the threats are very hard to stop.

:27:56.:27:58.

If somebody wants to suddenly change their mind, get in a car,

:27:59.:28:01.

or grab a knife and stab the first person next to them,

:28:02.:28:04.

it's a real challenge of how we are going to deal with that.

:28:05.:28:07.

That's why we've invested in our intelligence services

:28:08.:28:09.

and some of the surveillance capabilities that we often

:28:10.:28:11.

But it's also why we try and make sure the public are involved in this

:28:12.:28:16.

debate because it is community, it is neighbours and friends

:28:17.:28:19.

and parents and teachers that can help prevent people

:28:20.:28:23.

being radicalised in the first place, or make a call

:28:24.:28:26.

to the police or local authority if they are worried about how

:28:27.:28:28.

And that's how we are really going to make sure we minimise the risk.

:28:29.:28:34.

Is making sure the public and communities of all faiths,

:28:35.:28:37.

all up and down this country, engage with our security services

:28:38.:28:39.

That's how we will prevent people becoming radicalised and how

:28:40.:28:43.

we will protect the public and reduce the risk.

:28:44.:28:45.

It is inevitable that every atrocity prompts a discussion about how

:28:46.:28:51.

we can do things differently, to obstruct those

:28:52.:28:53.

Now this makes for difficult decisions - you'll hear the claim

:28:54.:29:02.

that we mustn't yield to terror by changing our lives -

:29:03.:29:05.

but of course over the years we have altered things -

:29:06.:29:07.

the rules of what we take on planes, security at buildings.

:29:08.:29:10.

So are there lessons to be drawn from yesterday's attack,

:29:11.:29:12.

in Antwerp today, when a car accelerated at a crowd

:29:13.:29:18.

Our policy editor, Chris Cook, looks at whether we can design

:29:19.:29:27.

cities that are safer against these attacks.

:29:28.:29:30.

Yesterday's attack began with a card being used as a weapon against

:29:31.:29:37.

pedestrians on Westminster Bridge. Today in Antwerp the authorities

:29:38.:29:41.

believe they have prevented a similar attack. Last year truck

:29:42.:29:49.

attacks killed 98 people in Nice and Berlin. So, can we make our cities

:29:50.:29:56.

safer against weaponised vehicles? When you hear about hardening cities

:29:57.:30:00.

against attack by terrorists you might think of the ugly concrete

:30:01.:30:04.

blocks that appear at events in London like the one happening

:30:05.:30:09.

tonight in memory of the victims of yesterday's attack. But actually a

:30:10.:30:14.

lot of the hardening of our urban environments is quite subtle. This

:30:15.:30:18.

is the Cabinet Office, the centre of our government. It has a wall

:30:19.:30:21.

running in front of most of it which looks like old crumbly sandstone but

:30:22.:30:26.

it's actually a high-tech barrier that would stop they lorry. The UK

:30:27.:30:36.

worried about this for years, this is a 7.5 tonne truck taking part in

:30:37.:30:40.

a regular test at the transport research laboratory in Berkshire.

:30:41.:30:47.

This is a long-standing issue in urban design. We even have very

:30:48.:30:51.

clearly defined strengthening standards for by Lance. One of the

:30:52.:30:54.

things that's been going on for a long time now is the creation of

:30:55.:30:58.

hard landscaping to provide a barrier between the roads and

:30:59.:31:02.

pedestrians -- by Lance. These can be in the form of large stone

:31:03.:31:07.

structures we can see her in Whitehall and steel bollards most of

:31:08.:31:13.

us appreciate are there to stop vehicles getting onto pavements. But

:31:14.:31:19.

also things like landscaping in the form of planters, or belts of

:31:20.:31:23.

landscaping, anything that provides what is called stand-off between

:31:24.:31:25.

vehicles and buildings and pedestrians. There are, though,

:31:26.:31:31.

limits to what we can do with hardened environments. The concept

:31:32.:31:36.

of target hardening has some practical limitations. You cannot

:31:37.:31:46.

paralyse an entire city by putting barriers, or closing off entire

:31:47.:31:53.

areas to transit without having any impact on the transport and daily

:31:54.:31:57.

life of a city. On the other hand you are incurring the risk of

:31:58.:32:00.

displacing the threat somewhere else. The entire city cannot be a

:32:01.:32:04.

fortress so if a terrorist realises about an area is too hard to hit

:32:05.:32:09.

they will just move the attention somewhere else.

:32:10.:32:13.

So, in the end, the answer has to be stopping assaults. How, though, do

:32:14.:32:18.

you stop people whose plans need so little planning?

:32:19.:32:21.

Obviously you have to continue to beef up intelligence. But

:32:22.:32:27.

intelligence is not necessarily end of the technological spectrum,

:32:28.:32:31.

trying to track chatter in the Middle East and that sort of stuff,

:32:32.:32:35.

which is useful but probably not terribly relevant to the sort of

:32:36.:32:39.

things which happened in Nice last year and possibly in London

:32:40.:32:44.

yesterday. But what I would call community intelligence. But in

:32:45.:32:47.

French we would call renseignement de

:32:48.:33:08.

proximite. It depends how much we are prepared to put up with. Chris

:33:09.:33:10.

Cooke, there. Well, there is a pattern

:33:11.:33:12.

to the reaction in major It reflects the fact

:33:13.:33:15.

that there is something more traumatic for a population,

:33:16.:33:18.

about death and injury at the hands of someone trying to do harm,

:33:19.:33:20.

than in the normal urban routine. You've seen the same defiance,

:33:21.:33:23.

sentiment and unity in Paris, Brussels and in London,

:33:24.:33:29.

and there was a vigil at Trafalgar Square this evening,

:33:30.:33:32.

and I went down to talk to people Well, the short ceremony

:33:33.:33:35.

is over, the vigil is over. We heard words from Amber Rudd,

:33:36.:33:51.

the Home Secretary, from the Mayor A familiar message about how London

:33:52.:33:53.

will and should react to events And then the silence observed not

:33:54.:34:04.

just by the many people in the square but of course

:34:05.:34:08.

by the lack of traffic around. I think it's that sense

:34:09.:34:11.

of solidarity with being a Londoner. I've lived here for about 20 years,

:34:12.:34:14.

I love the diversity of this city. What happened yesterday

:34:15.:34:18.

was a horrendous thing. You can't let it put up barriers

:34:19.:34:20.

against people who are different. You've just got to come together

:34:21.:34:27.

and that's happened here. My heart goes out to the victims

:34:28.:34:29.

who have tragically lost their lives And I actually live in Birmingham

:34:30.:34:32.

and I actually drove past this particular place that was raided

:34:33.:34:50.

yesterday, and I work in London, so I thought I'd come

:34:51.:34:53.

and pay my respects today. I think as a Londoner you do feel

:34:54.:34:55.

connected and you want to be with fellow Londoners

:34:56.:34:58.

at a time like this. But I also feel that at the same

:34:59.:35:00.

time it reminds me of everyone who's under these kind of attacks

:35:01.:35:04.

around the world. Obviously when terrible things

:35:05.:35:06.

happen like what happened yesterday it's sometimes very difficult

:35:07.:35:09.

to kind of continue to feel positive about how

:35:10.:35:13.

we can work together. But I personally have faith

:35:14.:35:15.

in people to continue Today I was expecting

:35:16.:35:17.

most of us to be Muslims But when I see different cultures

:35:18.:35:22.

standing for that thing, It shows you that

:35:23.:35:28.

still the world is OK. The scenes at the Trafalgar Square

:35:29.:35:45.

vigil earlier. Richard Watson, who you heard from the programme today

:35:46.:35:50.

and yesterday, briefly joins me. Richard, more information in the

:35:51.:35:53.

last few minutes about Khalid Masood. That's right, this wire copy

:35:54.:35:58.

has dropped and the BBC has confirmed the name of Khalid Masood

:35:59.:36:02.

and this is a story the Daily Mail were running, it wasn't confirmed

:36:03.:36:06.

until now but now the BBC has confirmed it, his birth name was

:36:07.:36:11.

Adrian elms, born in Dartford in Kent and lived at various times in

:36:12.:36:16.

Rye, Crawley, West Sussex, Eastbourne in East Sussex, the BBC

:36:17.:36:21.

confirms this is a man who has been convicted of knife crime offences --

:36:22.:36:27.

Adrian Elms. That tallies with information put out by the

:36:28.:36:29.

Metropolitan Police. This is the first confirmation of that. Richard,

:36:30.:36:31.

thank you. Let's move on to

:36:32.:36:33.

another subject now. And Hillary Clinton's

:36:34.:36:35.

election campaign manager, John Podesta is in London

:36:36.:36:37.

at the moment, for The Economist Now Podesta's name is perhaps

:36:38.:36:40.

most famous for the fact that it was his emails that

:36:41.:36:44.

were hacked, and which caused embarrassment

:36:45.:36:46.

to the Clinton campaign. But he has a long career in politics

:36:47.:36:48.

on the Democrat side - he was chief of staff

:36:49.:36:52.

to President Bill Clinton in the White House under President

:36:53.:36:54.

Obama. It was Mr Podesta who came

:36:55.:36:57.

on stage on election night, I met up with him earlier today,

:36:58.:37:00.

to talk about politics, here and in the US,

:37:01.:37:04.

and his experience But first, in light of his speech

:37:05.:37:06.

at the summit, I asked him how the world should respond to any

:37:07.:37:13.

decision by President Trump to pull The most fundamental

:37:14.:37:16.

problem is what he's doing in the United States

:37:17.:37:22.

which is to really attack the fundamental pillars

:37:23.:37:25.

of environmental protection. He's set the country on a course

:37:26.:37:29.

that is really ignoring the science and ignoring

:37:30.:37:32.

the tremendous cost that the United States

:37:33.:37:37.

and of course the world will be faced

:37:38.:37:40.

with as a result of climate change. You happen to be

:37:41.:37:43.

in London at the time horrendous incident in Westminster

:37:44.:37:48.

yesterday. should react to these

:37:49.:37:52.

atrocities? Look, I think you have to do

:37:53.:37:56.

everything you can to protect to justice the people who are

:37:57.:37:59.

responsible. I know that the assailant

:38:00.:38:08.

was killed yesterday but there are others who appear to be

:38:09.:38:12.

involved and need to be arrested. But I think you also

:38:13.:38:16.

have to try to retain and be restrained in terms

:38:17.:38:19.

of retaining your ability to operate

:38:20.:38:21.

in a free and open way. It's five months now

:38:22.:38:27.

since the election In a nutshell, what's your account

:38:28.:38:28.

of why he prevailed? He was able to put together

:38:29.:38:35.

narrow wins in Wisconsin got him the victory in the electoral

:38:36.:38:37.

college. He had a little assist from

:38:38.:38:47.

the Russians as we are finding out more from every day,

:38:48.:38:51.

and a little assist actually from our

:38:52.:38:54.

director of the FBI. How do you think liberal America

:38:55.:38:58.

should react to what we are seeing President Trump

:38:59.:39:01.

is doing and what he's like in his I think you see it

:39:02.:39:04.

out on the street. You saw it the day after his

:39:05.:39:09.

inauguration with the women's march, marches

:39:10.:39:12.

that took place. And you support that

:39:13.:39:13.

kind of approach? Absolutely, I'm fully

:39:14.:39:15.

into the resistance. And what would happen

:39:16.:39:16.

if there was no resistance? I think that we would see

:39:17.:39:19.

a growing authoritarianism. And I think we've seen that

:39:20.:39:24.

played out across other places, particularly

:39:25.:39:26.

in Eastern Europe, In a way, what you are

:39:27.:39:31.

describing sounds, well, unprecedented, really,

:39:32.:39:37.

in the history of democracy. I think we are in a whole

:39:38.:39:43.

different world with somebody who, to cite

:39:44.:39:46.

the latest example, When every person who is a member

:39:47.:39:57.

of his administration from law there's absolutely zero evidence of

:39:58.:40:12.

that. Well he says, in defence to him,

:40:13.:40:16.

he says he feels partly vindicated on that because maybe, we

:40:17.:40:18.

haven't seen the evidence, but maybe No, he said at the

:40:19.:40:22.

beginning that President Obama ordered tapping

:40:23.:40:25.

of him, that was a lie. You mentioned the Russian hacking

:40:26.:40:28.

which was a help to the In the big picture, how big

:40:29.:40:30.

a difference do you think the Podesta e-mails, how big

:40:31.:40:36.

a difference to you think they made? One of the things they did,

:40:37.:40:38.

they kept that whole idea of e-mails So none of the particular

:40:39.:40:41.

e-mails, many of them hardly got above the radar in

:40:42.:40:45.

mainstream media, but in the social media there was a kind

:40:46.:40:48.

of subterranean effect. And I think it laid

:40:49.:40:53.

the groundwork when Mr Comey came in and reopened

:40:54.:40:58.

the e-mail investigation. The public confused

:40:59.:41:03.

and conflated all that and eight days later when he said never mind,

:41:04.:41:05.

there's nothing to this, it still had a corrosive effect

:41:06.:41:09.

on the campaign. What did you think as you saw your

:41:10.:41:12.

words, words sent to you being paraded in

:41:13.:41:21.

respectable journalists? Did you think they were doing

:41:22.:41:23.

their job or that they should I was just trying to deal

:41:24.:41:25.

with it on a daily basis. I thought that the reflection

:41:26.:41:29.

of where they came from and the fact that there was substantiation that

:41:30.:41:34.

the Russians had hacked my e-mails, the DNC e-mails, that Wikileaks

:41:35.:41:36.

was an instrument of an attempt by Vladimir Putin and the Russian

:41:37.:41:40.

Federation to undermine our democracy, that could have been

:41:41.:41:47.

reflected in the press and I don't And I think that was actually

:41:48.:41:54.

a failing on behalf of the mainstream media and particularly

:41:55.:42:01.

some of the major news outlets in What should the Labour

:42:02.:42:04.

Party do here? It's in a very low place

:42:05.:42:21.

in the polls here at the moment. I think that's going to be a process

:42:22.:42:24.

that's going to have to work itself out with voices arguing

:42:25.:42:27.

for things that point I think it's not enough to simply be

:42:28.:42:29.

a voice of opposition if you have no strategy to be

:42:30.:42:35.

viable or electable again. And ultimately that

:42:36.:42:43.

will be rewarded. I think the plan is for us to upload

:42:44.:43:00.

and an edited version of that interview to our YouTube channel

:43:01.:43:01.

tomorrow. But to finish tonight,

:43:02.:43:03.

we thought we should return Westminster Bridge is no

:43:04.:43:09.

ordinary Thames crossing - it is a destination

:43:10.:43:12.

as well as a transit point. It has wide pavements and a lively

:43:13.:43:14.

atmosphere, and lovely views. You'll bump into tourists there -

:43:15.:43:17.

literally, and a lot No-one should let hate-mongers

:43:18.:43:19.

appropriate its symbolism. So Tom Hollander has come

:43:20.:43:22.

in to help us reclaim it. Composed upon Westminster Bridge by

:43:23.:43:35.

William Wordsworth. Earth has not anything

:43:36.:43:42.

to show more fair: Dull would he be of

:43:43.:43:45.

soul who could pass by A sight so touching in its majesty:

:43:46.:43:47.

This City now doth, like a garment, wear The beauty

:43:48.:43:54.

of the morning; silent, bare, Ships, towers, domes,

:43:55.:43:58.

theatres, and temples lie Open unto the fields,

:43:59.:44:04.

and to the sky; All bright and glittering

:44:05.:44:08.

in the smokeless air. Never did sun more beautifully steep

:44:09.:44:12.

in his first splendour, valley, rock, or hill; Ne'er saw I,

:44:13.:44:21.

never felt, a calm so deep! The river glideth

:44:22.:44:29.

at his own sweet will: The very houses seem

:44:30.:44:32.

asleep; And all that mighty Good evening. The weekend is just

:44:33.:45:03.

around the corner and the weather does not look bad, quite promising

:45:04.:45:07.

for most of the UK with some sunshine in the forecast. In the

:45:08.:45:10.

short

:45:11.:45:11.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis.

The latest on the Westminster terror attacks, including an interview with the security minister. Plus Hillary Clinton's campaign manager.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS