24/03/2017 Newsnight


24/03/2017

With Emily Maitlis. The latest on the Westminster attacker, Donald Trump's healthcare bill fails, and what Brexit promises did the government make behind the scenes to Nissan?


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Transcript


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What do we now know about what drove Khalid Masood to become the man

:00:11.:00:13.

who murdered four people and injured 50 others in Westminster

:00:14.:00:16.

Does he fit the profile of such an extreme and violent attacker?

:00:17.:00:28.

What is so extraordinary about Khalid Masood? Known as Adrian elms

:00:29.:00:37.

where he grew up in Tunbridge Wells, in the garden of England.

:00:38.:00:40.

Westminster under attack - Who, what or where should be held

:00:41.:00:45.

Also tonight - Did the Government give sweeteners to Nissan to stay

:00:46.:00:49.

We came really close today, but we came up short.

:00:50.:01:01.

A big setback for Donald Trump as his health care bill

:01:02.:01:03.

crashes in Congress - killed by his own party.

:01:04.:01:06.

I think we'll end up with a truly great health

:01:07.:01:12.

care bill in the future, after this mess known

:01:13.:01:15.

Today police issued an appeal for information

:01:16.:01:31.

to anyone who can shed light on whether the Westminster attacker,

:01:32.:01:34.

Khalid Masood, acted alone or was directed by others.

:01:35.:01:36.

Police made two more "significant" arrests,

:01:37.:01:37.

taking the total to 11 - six of whom were released tonight

:01:38.:01:40.

Three vehicles were seized by police after an armed raid

:01:41.:01:46.

Masood, who had used a number of aliases,

:01:47.:01:49.

was believed to have been living in the West Midlands

:01:50.:01:52.

He had previously spent time in West Sussex, East Sussex,

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London and went to school in Tunbridge Wells, Kent.

:01:57.:01:59.

John Sweeney has been looking more into the man responsible

:02:00.:02:01.

for the deaths of four people and injuring 50 others.

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Khalid Masood grew up in the garden of England. This is the story of a

:02:14.:02:20.

Home Counties boy, who went on to strike terror in the heart of

:02:21.:02:26.

London. Masood was born Adrian Elms on Christmas Day, 1964. His birth

:02:27.:02:31.

was registered in Dartford, Kent. But he grew up in Tunbridge Wells,

:02:32.:02:37.

where he most often used the surname Ajao, that of his mother's new

:02:38.:02:41.

husband. He went to a secondary modern school

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in Tunbridge Wells, where he was known as Adrian Ajao, a mixed race

:02:49.:02:53.

people in a primarily white school. He was always laughing, always

:02:54.:02:56.

joking. He was good at sport and played rugby well. Just an

:02:57.:03:03.

unassuming guy. At some point after finishing school, Adrian moved to

:03:04.:03:07.

this village in Sussex. Convicted for criminal damage at the age of

:03:08.:03:13.

18, he stood out. I was under the impression that he was a black man

:03:14.:03:20.

in a white man's pub, you know? And he was going to fight for it. I

:03:21.:03:27.

said, look. I don't care if you are black or white. I am quite happy to

:03:28.:03:31.

have a drink with you. If you want to buy new one now, I'm happy to

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take it! -- by new one. I cannot even remember if he bought me one or

:03:38.:03:42.

not, he shook my hand. Was he funny and intelligent? Yes. But some

:03:43.:03:48.

people in the village saw a nasty side to Adrian. In 2000, Adrian

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Elms, that was his name before he changed it to Masood, got into a

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fight with another local. In the village boozer.

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The fight turned nasty, the local paper reported there were racial

:04:06.:04:09.

overtones and the other man ended up with a slash on the side of his face

:04:10.:04:15.

needing 20 stitches. Adrian Elms was sent to prison. When you heard the

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news about the attack in Westminster, what was your reaction?

:04:22.:04:32.

Well, it was put over that it was a terrorist attack. But, having known

:04:33.:04:40.

him and what I found out tonight, he was just a crazy man. Mind you, I

:04:41.:04:49.

don't know how you could recognise him since, but he was not a

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terrorist here. A drink? He was, yes. From here, to prison to

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Eastbourne, and there, the first suggestion of an interest in is land

:05:01.:05:06.

-- drinker. A friend at the time has told the BBC that he was using

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cocaine at the time and also reading the Koran. In 2003 there was a fight

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outside of this nursing home and in December he was found guilty of

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possessing a knife. His last conviction aged just shy of 40. He

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was still Adrian Elms. In November 2005, he first travelled

:05:26.:05:29.

to Saudi Arabia, and used the name Khalid Masood. In all committee

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spent two years there, teaching English. He toured here, at the

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Saudi Civil Aviation Authority, in Jenner.

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-- he taught here. In 2010, Khalid Masood was back in Blighty, in

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Luton, we believe, teaching English. He had two children at the time he

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was here, they appeared to be primary school children. He had a

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people carrier and would load his children into a people carrier with

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child seats. He was a portly gentleman, and frequently wearing

:06:03.:06:07.

tracksuit bottoms. And also would be wearing slip on moccasins, quite

:06:08.:06:10.

relaxed attire, I would say. Always gardening. By last year, he popped

:06:11.:06:18.

up in London's East End. There had been searches there two.

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He moved to Birmingham, most recently it seems in Ladywood.

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Before that, Winson Green. He would help me to jump-start my car. He was

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nice, a nice family. He would drop his kids at school. Normal stuff.

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You would never think anything dodgy, of all of their neighbours on

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the road. Last week, Khalid Masood returned south to the part of the

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country where Adrian Elms had grown up. He stayed here, in this room. He

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was joking, smiling and friendly. He was a very friendly person when he

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came in. Actually, the receptionist said that he was a lovely guest, she

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liked him. She put comments in the system. But he was a nice guest.

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Then, the nice guest got into his car and drove to Westminster Bridge.

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Khalid Masood spent time in three separate prisons

:07:13.:07:16.

There has been a well-documented problem of Islamist radicalisation

:07:17.:07:19.

Last year, Ian Acheson wrote a report for the Government

:07:20.:07:26.

Thank you for joining me this evening. There is a lot we don't

:07:27.:07:34.

know about Khalid Masood. That is very clear but we do know that he

:07:35.:07:38.

spent time in Lewes prison, where you spent a short time as a governor

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there. And a couple of other prisons, Weiland and Ford, which you

:07:44.:07:47.

visited. Can you give me an idea that when you visited them, how or

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where you would have been of the problem of radicalisation there?

:07:53.:07:55.

Firstly, it's important to emphasise that we have no idea at this point

:07:56.:08:07.

in time whether his periods of time in custody were relevant at all to

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what he became, which was a murderous terrorist. Or, whether

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they had significance. We need to be careful indeed about speculation. I

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spent time working in the three prisoners he has been in during his

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time in custody. They are very different, Lewes

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prison is a Victorian prison, a multifunctional prison with

:08:27.:08:29.

different sentences, local to the community. Wayland prison is a rural

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prison setting a large area, it is category C and medium security,

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which is set over a wide area. Ford is a prison which prisoners coming

:08:40.:08:45.

to the end of their sentences, sometimes long sentences, will be in

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and tested to see if they will survive in open conditions. There

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might be an obvious answer, where you are more likely to be

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radicalised, or will there be an experience of being exposed to

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groups that would be potentially wanting to radicalise you?

:09:03.:09:05.

Certainly, we drew attention in the report that I did for Michael Gove

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to the fact that while the problem was well understood and contained in

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the high security prison where the majority of prisoners serving

:09:15.:09:17.

Stenton says for terror offences were kept, we were not at all clear

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in the category C prisons and open prisons in the country, there was

:09:25.:09:28.

the same level of competence, awareness or intervention to be able

:09:29.:09:31.

to know what the extent of the problem was in those prisons --

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sentences. Or be able to intervene and address that behaviour. If that

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is the case, how easy is it to identify a prisoner who could be

:09:42.:09:45.

influenced by someone wanting to radicalise the new person in the

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prison? The ingredients for radicalisation, which we concluded

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from our report is a real, present and growing danger in this country,

:09:55.:10:00.

it is very simple. You need a person with charisma who can

:10:01.:10:07.

psychologically control and profit eyes hateful ideology.

:10:08.:10:10.

You need a vulnerable and often highly violent young man, in search

:10:11.:10:15.

of meaning and in prison for a long period of time, who have committed

:10:16.:10:20.

serious crimes, and you need a narrative of grievance. Where you

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have those three conditions, you will have, in prisons, the ideal

:10:24.:10:26.

environment for growing this phenomenon. So, you have highlighted

:10:27.:10:33.

young, in prison for a long time, sentenced for a long time, it almost

:10:34.:10:38.

contradicts Khalid Masood's history? And if you were to look at Khalid

:10:39.:10:42.

Masood and look at his past, what similarities could you draw, if any,

:10:43.:10:47.

of those who have been radicalised? The problem is, the routes into and

:10:48.:10:52.

out of radicalised behaviour and terrorist intent is extremely

:10:53.:10:56.

complex. There's been a lot of work and research done by the Henry

:10:57.:11:02.

Jackson Society, into the biographies of prisoners convicted

:11:03.:11:05.

of terror offences, and it is difficult to discern a common to

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dominate or pattern. It is exceptionally difficult,

:11:10.:11:13.

especially with the lone actor terrorists as well, and there is

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speculation that this man acted alone, but we are not clear yet. The

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police are actively investigating what support or help or inspiration

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he may have had. They are particularly difficult to identify.

:11:26.:11:29.

Coming back into prisons, the word I hear from you is "Difficult". The

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conclusion I have drawn, correct me if I am wrong, but it is impossible

:11:34.:11:39.

to eradicate radicalisation in prisons at this time?

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There is a huge amount of work in prisons to be done to make them

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places where extreme as is driven out, I made a number of

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recommendations, I am pleased to say that the government have accepted

:11:50.:11:53.

those, in order to deal with the problem. They include separating the

:11:54.:12:01.

most psychologically dangerous extremists from their audiences.

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There is intelligence suggesting there are a small number of people

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who need separating from people vulnerable to the head for messages,

:12:08.:12:11.

that's one way we can directly interfere with the process of

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radicalisation, it is an urgent issue and I know the government are

:12:15.:12:17.

tackling it. There are issues about the quality of chaplaincy, the

:12:18.:12:23.

Islamist chaplaincy in prisons, they need addressing, and a fundamental

:12:24.:12:27.

issue about support and training for staff, who told us in great numbers

:12:28.:12:31.

that they were fearful of intervening and promoting British

:12:32.:12:33.

values in prisons because they simply did not have that

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expectation. There are many issues, thank you

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very much for joining us. The President who prides himself

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in being able to drive a hard bargain and always get the deal done

:12:42.:12:43.

has suffered a major setback this evening,

:12:44.:12:50.

despite his determination to repeal and replace Obamacare, his bill has

:12:51.:12:52.

failed to pass through Congress. President Trump ordered

:12:53.:12:54.

that the vote was pulled just moments before it was to take place

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as support among Republican Our correspondent Laura Bicker

:12:57.:12:59.

is in Washington. Hello, Laura. What does this mean

:13:00.:13:12.

for Trump and the Republicans? When it comes to the Republican party,

:13:13.:13:16.

they look like the party of drama, defeat and disappointment. When it

:13:17.:13:21.

came down to it, after seven years of promising to repeal and replace

:13:22.:13:25.

Obamacare, when it came down to the moment of asking, they just could

:13:26.:13:30.

not do it. They were spared the humiliation of defeat after not

:13:31.:13:37.

calling the vote, but it does look incredibly embarrassing. It is a

:13:38.:13:41.

real setback for the Republicans. The right of the party didn't like

:13:42.:13:44.

the bill, neither did the left. It meant they could not find some

:13:45.:13:49.

consensus and serious questions will be asked about their governing

:13:50.:13:53.

abilities going forward. Will they be able to make real decisions? Real

:13:54.:13:59.

policy decisions. Paul Ryan, House Speaker, dismissed

:14:00.:14:03.

it as a growing pains of his government, but he will have to go

:14:04.:14:07.

away and lick his wounds, wondering how to move forward.

:14:08.:14:10.

President Trump has sold himself as the ultimate deal-maker and when it

:14:11.:14:14.

came to it, coming to his first attempt at legislation come he came

:14:15.:14:16.

up short. Sometimes failure is good? You said

:14:17.:14:20.

there were Douzable -- disagreements that

:14:21.:14:23.

-- at both ends of the party, maybe it is good for him to fail this time

:14:24.:14:30.

around? It is interesting, looking at the states which voted for Donald

:14:31.:14:34.

Trump, thousands within those states would have lost their current health

:14:35.:14:38.

care insurance if this had gone through. It's interesting to watch

:14:39.:14:42.

the popularity of Obamacare, the affordable health care right. During

:14:43.:14:48.

the campaign, under constant attack by Republicans, Donald Trump, and

:14:49.:14:53.

the Democrats to properly defend it, the popularity of Obamacare went

:14:54.:14:57.

really far down. And it meant people thought there were real problems

:14:58.:15:00.

with it, and there are. Some insurance premiums have skyrocketed

:15:01.:15:04.

and for others, they have very little choice when it comes to their

:15:05.:15:08.

health care. But, as the repeal and replace has gone through, as people

:15:09.:15:16.

have been able to look at it and go, what will I lose?

:15:17.:15:19.

Suddenly, Obamacare seems more popular and you are right, it might

:15:20.:15:22.

be better for Donald Trump to have left things as they are.

:15:23.:15:25.

But the Democrats would be the first to admit that something needs to be

:15:26.:15:30.

done. There are problems within this bill. They say it needs nurturing,

:15:31.:15:34.

not neglect. They are calling on their Republican colleagues to come

:15:35.:15:38.

together to go forward, but for now, Obamacare remains in place. It

:15:39.:15:41.

certainly does, Laura, thank you. It's good to talk to you.

:15:42.:15:45.

When Nissan announced that it would continue to build new models

:15:46.:15:47.

and invest in its car plant in Sunderland after the referendum -

:15:48.:15:50.

there were cheers, not only from the Japanese car-maker's

:15:51.:15:52.

employees, but also from British politicians keen to show that the UK

:15:53.:15:55.

Theresa May declared it "fantastic news".

:15:56.:15:58.

So what made Nissan so confident that a post-Brexit Britain would be

:15:59.:16:01.

a productive enough environment to keep manufacturing in?

:16:02.:16:04.

Chris Cook has been digging around and is here with new information.

:16:05.:16:12.

This is an intriguing outcome, it was the time and still is and to

:16:13.:16:20.

find out more, you had to submit a Freedom of Information request? Yes,

:16:21.:16:25.

and they are supposed to take 20 working days to come back, this one

:16:26.:16:32.

has taken six months. Also, we received this this evening at ten

:16:33.:16:38.

past six on evening, which is when you do not want journalists looking

:16:39.:16:43.

at this carefully. Newsnight does not have the same working hours as

:16:44.:16:50.

other news outlets! We ask for a lot, correspondence between Nissan

:16:51.:16:52.

and the government and there is a critical letter between Greg Clark

:16:53.:16:57.

and Nissan sent from the government to Nissan, the smoking gun which we

:16:58.:17:05.

did not get. The release is full of reductions and unfortunately that is

:17:06.:17:08.

one of the things the government has committed to eventually releasing

:17:09.:17:13.

but not for now. Do we know why not? They say because they have committed

:17:14.:17:16.

to releasing this in the future, they do not need to release this

:17:17.:17:21.

right now, there is a future publication schedule, which is a

:17:22.:17:24.

ridiculous excuse but they are sticking with it. There is a smoking

:17:25.:17:29.

gun and were not allowed to see it but we will in the future. We have

:17:30.:17:34.

got stuff today. Among the logistics of setting up meetings and one of

:17:35.:17:39.

the things this shows is how much effort the government was going to

:17:40.:17:44.

see Nissan, Greg Clark went to Japan, there were meetings and

:17:45.:17:47.

conference calls and a meeting between somebody from the business

:17:48.:17:52.

Department and the chair of Nissan on the fringes of the Paris motor

:17:53.:17:56.

show but also a letter that gives good detail about what Nissan are

:17:57.:18:00.

asking for, not what they were talking about in relation to Brexit

:18:01.:18:04.

and trading negotiations, that is redacted but we have something

:18:05.:18:10.

interesting about other things. Any company would want a shopping list

:18:11.:18:15.

in times of uncertainty. This and asked for three things. In

:18:16.:18:20.

mid-October, three things. They wanted tax incentives for people to

:18:21.:18:24.

buy electric cars, they wanted the government to put more money into

:18:25.:18:29.

providing charging points and they wanted a change planning laws and

:18:30.:18:33.

local authorities would have to put in more charging points. That is

:18:34.:18:38.

what they ask for in mid-October and by the end of November, the

:18:39.:18:42.

government had opened a consultation on changing the rules around petrol

:18:43.:18:46.

stations so that they would have to have more charging points, they got

:18:47.:18:52.

a tax incentive for ultralow emission vehicles and the extra

:18:53.:18:58.

money for high-speed charging. I will not save the government

:18:59.:19:02.

definitely did what Nissan asked but it is very striking that all of the

:19:03.:19:06.

specific demands not about Brexit that were in the power of the

:19:07.:19:10.

government to deliver, they ask this in mid-October and had them by the

:19:11.:19:13.

end of November. Should we make clear that what Nissan was asking

:19:14.:19:18.

for, people would not think that was unreasonable? There is not a wild

:19:19.:19:24.

U-turn by the government, it does not show corruption or anything else

:19:25.:19:28.

but it shows that I think it is there to say that the government was

:19:29.:19:32.

clearly listening to Nissan and we should point out that last autumn,

:19:33.:19:37.

Nick Watt was reporting that some of these measures appeared to be just

:19:38.:19:41.

to appease Nissan so there is good reason to think these things are

:19:42.:19:44.

connected. We don't know when we will get that letter? Some point in

:19:45.:19:50.

the future! We will be back talking about that. Thank you.

:19:51.:19:53.

Let's go back to the aftermath of Wednesday's attack in Westminster.

:19:54.:19:55.

The last place that Khalid Masood was believed to have been

:19:56.:19:58.

living was Birmingham - a city that has regularly been

:19:59.:20:00.

Our correspondent David Grossman has been to the city

:20:01.:20:03.

where most of the arrests, so far by police in relation

:20:04.:20:06.

Noon in Birmingham and a pause for thought.

:20:07.:20:18.

In an itinerant life, Khalid Masood had connections to many places,

:20:19.:20:20.

but this is where he most recently called home.

:20:21.:20:28.

Others are now, rightly or wrongly, looking

:20:29.:20:36.

to for explanations for the murder and destruction he caused.

:20:37.:20:39.

Every time there is a terrorist outrage it seems all eyes and quite

:20:40.:20:42.

a few accusing fingers are directed towards Birmingham.

:20:43.:20:44.

And if so, is enough being done to solve it.

:20:45.:20:48.

Do you think Birmingham has a problem?

:20:49.:20:49.

I think there is an issue and that is proven statistically,

:20:50.:20:52.

to see the number of arrests that have been made, the number of plots

:20:53.:20:56.

that have been planned shows that there is an issue,

:20:57.:20:58.

a significant in Birmingham in relation to the rest

:20:59.:21:00.

People have got to stand up to this and say, look,

:21:01.:21:04.

You are not treading on people's toes, it is not about sensitivities,

:21:05.:21:14.

it is about making sure that what is conformed to,

:21:15.:21:18.

the society that we're part of, and were and young people

:21:19.:21:21.

particularly are being groomed towards radicalisation,

:21:22.:21:25.

we have to call that out and call it out properly.

:21:26.:21:28.

At Birmingham Central Mosque, Friday prayers begin

:21:29.:21:29.

with an unequivocal condemnation of the London attack.

:21:30.:21:35.

As evil, the congregation were told, as it was un-Islamic.

:21:36.:21:38.

However, when you ask the Birmingham MP, Khaled Mahmud,

:21:39.:21:41.

who needs to do more to challenge the processes that lead

:21:42.:21:46.

lead to radicalisation, top of his list are the city's

:21:47.:21:48.

You can only challenge them if you happen to

:21:49.:21:52.

And then we're quite happy to challenge them them.

:21:53.:21:59.

Because I think the situation is that these people do these

:22:00.:22:01.

activities by reading the literature from all these websites.

:22:02.:22:03.

And all these electronic gadgets are so freely available.

:22:04.:22:07.

People learn radicalisation from those.

:22:08.:22:11.

Mosques do not teach them to become radicalised.

:22:12.:22:18.

But Muhammad Afzal is not just the chairman of the mosque.

:22:19.:22:21.

He is a long-standing and prominent Labour councillor here.

:22:22.:22:25.

Birmingham is a city where religion and politics mix.

:22:26.:22:30.

According to Labour's opponents, the result is an unhealthy

:22:31.:22:32.

We all know that the way voting works in many communities,

:22:33.:22:45.

you have the block vote, the clan vote, the postal vote

:22:46.:22:47.

and we know that they are 1-party states, if you will,

:22:48.:22:50.

and selections are often made by families and packing

:22:51.:22:52.

So it is difficult to achieve change through the ballot box and often

:22:53.:22:56.

it is not in people's interests to really rock the vote.

:22:57.:22:59.

It leads to disempowerment, it leads to poverty,

:23:00.:23:02.

it leads to people not being able to participate in society and one

:23:03.:23:06.

of those consequences is that it allows radicalisation

:23:07.:23:08.

It is one of two Parliamentary constituencies identified by recent

:23:09.:23:19.

reports as accounting for three quarters of Birmingham's Islamist

:23:20.:23:21.

This group of lads blame social media, definitely

:23:22.:23:24.

What has been going on in London and all these links and everything,

:23:25.:23:32.

we're the first people to speak up about these things and say,

:23:33.:23:35.

we don't agree with what is going on and we are deeply sorry

:23:36.:23:38.

for the people that have been hurt and to their families as well.

:23:39.:23:42.

Answering the question, I don't think...

:23:43.:23:44.

In Sparkbrook, I don't think there is radicalisation

:23:45.:23:47.

but it is easy to say because this area, the majority are Muslim

:23:48.:23:50.

And it is easy to target this area or certain areas and say,

:23:51.:23:57.

these areas are radicalised and so on.

:23:58.:23:59.

We think that this is a tight-knit community

:24:00.:24:01.

Mohammed Ashfak is the director of KIKIT, an organisation that,

:24:02.:24:10.

with public money, tries to turn round vulnerable lives.

:24:11.:24:21.

Radicalisation, they believe, is the same product

:24:22.:24:22.

We stopped two youngsters from going over to Syria that

:24:23.:24:26.

had a range of issues, they were addicted to drugs

:24:27.:24:28.

They actually have their tickets booked, they were going to fly over

:24:29.:24:42.

and they were being groomed by going online and watching videos of Isis.

:24:43.:24:45.

It is safeguarding, that is how we approached it

:24:46.:24:47.

And people who try and radicalise other people, it is a grooming

:24:48.:24:53.

process, the same way you get with child sexual exploitation.

:24:54.:24:55.

Just the same way as you get with any other grooming process.

:24:56.:24:58.

At the Birmingham Bullring there was another vigil today.

:24:59.:25:02.

Very different from the one outside the Town Hall earlier.

:25:03.:25:05.

This has been organised by a group called Stand Up To Racism

:25:06.:25:07.

and the concern here is that the crimes of a few are

:25:08.:25:10.

The fact that awful things happen does not mean that

:25:11.:25:14.

And I think the onus should be on how do we come together, how do

:25:15.:25:20.

But at the same time, how do we do so in a manner that

:25:21.:25:25.

doesn't give more oxygen to the very people who celebrate

:25:26.:25:27.

And I would say those people are two kinds.

:25:28.:25:34.

People like Isis, who want to betray an image that they are

:25:35.:25:37.

And also the far right groups, who then exploit the tensions that

:25:38.:25:41.

That is what we should be looking at, taking that

:25:42.:25:45.

step back and thinking, is this a helpful way to respond?

:25:46.:25:47.

How do we frame the problem and get to the roots

:25:48.:25:50.

Although another terrorist attack linked to Birmingham causes

:25:51.:26:05.

discomfort here, in a sense it makes agreement easier.

:26:06.:26:08.

Everyone condemns and everyone extends sympathy.

:26:09.:26:09.

What is far harder to find, though, is a consensus

:26:10.:26:11.

Let's discuss the root causes of these problems -

:26:12.:26:21.

I'm joined by David Goodhart, author of the Road to Somewhere

:26:22.:26:23.

and Miqdaad Versi from the Muslim Council of Britain.

:26:24.:26:30.

Do you recognise the picture in that report? Integration and

:26:31.:26:35.

multiculturalism failing in places like that? I do recognise that

:26:36.:26:41.

picture and I think the terrorist attack in Westminster was from a man

:26:42.:26:46.

who was alone will, unbalanced, but we clearly have a problem with

:26:47.:26:53.

Islamic extremism in Britain, 3000 people under constant surveillance

:26:54.:26:58.

and even if you take the 3% in certain opinion polls who support

:26:59.:27:03.

violent extremism, that are still 100,000 British Muslims, a worrying

:27:04.:27:10.

figure. Muslims tend to live somewhat more segregated than other

:27:11.:27:15.

minorities. Is that fair? It is worth challenging one of those

:27:16.:27:19.

points, 3% of Muslims sympathise with terrorism, the previous ICN

:27:20.:27:25.

poll showed that 4% of the general population sympathise with

:27:26.:27:31.

terrorism. Lots of opinion polls said 7% or 8% of the Muslim

:27:32.:27:35.

community. The point is, the way we ask the question presents a certain

:27:36.:27:42.

answer and a 4% of the population have sympathy with terrorism, that

:27:43.:27:45.

would be hundreds of thousands of people so let us move away from the

:27:46.:27:49.

idea that Muslims sympathise with terrorism. A very small number. This

:27:50.:27:58.

is not scaremongering. How can we prevent these kids, most of them are

:27:59.:28:01.

kids were young men, getting diverted on their life track into

:28:02.:28:10.

this new identity, this disaffected identity that seems to be attractive

:28:11.:28:14.

to them. This is a problem for liberal societies, to provide

:28:15.:28:18.

attractive national identities for all of our kids. All of our kids

:28:19.:28:24.

should belong to Britain and feel that Britain belongs to them and it

:28:25.:28:27.

seems to be quite difficult in our kind of society to provide those

:28:28.:28:32.

identities. You said that young people, Khalid Masood was 52? A

:28:33.:28:40.

disproportionate number are under 35. We firstly have to distinguish

:28:41.:28:48.

between the idea of segregation and extremism, the idea that one leads

:28:49.:28:52.

to another is not a simple process that is clear, people who are

:28:53.:28:56.

segregated are more like to be extremists. I don't think there is

:28:57.:29:00.

evidence. I would agree, extremists come from everywhere, all levels of

:29:01.:29:06.

education, people who have been to Cambridge. Segregation is not the

:29:07.:29:12.

problem? It is a problem in itself and it is a separate problem, it may

:29:13.:29:17.

have some relation to extremism in some cases but the fact that Muslims

:29:18.:29:23.

live more separately from the rest of society than other minorities is

:29:24.:29:26.

an issue that we should continue to talk about and do something about.

:29:27.:29:30.

Birmingham is a very segregated city but it goes back several decades

:29:31.:29:35.

when many of the white people moved to North fields and different

:29:36.:29:38.

minorities became concentrated in particular areas and we can learn

:29:39.:29:43.

from the mistakes of the past and allowing that to happen, to lean

:29:44.:29:47.

against those clustering tendencies. It is worth noting that Muslims have

:29:48.:29:53.

become less segregated in the last ten years and many reports sure

:29:54.:29:56.

we're doing a lot of positive things. We sometimes do not

:29:57.:30:01.

celebrate our diversity. If you look that great role models, the Mayor of

:30:02.:30:07.

London, Nadiya Hussain. Is that the way to improve the situation? To

:30:08.:30:12.

make sure that perhaps if you are a strong faith, you are not seen as

:30:13.:30:17.

someone outside the group willing to integrate? And make it clear that

:30:18.:30:21.

young Muslims have very good opportunities in this country, many

:30:22.:30:24.

Muslims are concentrated in the bottom part of the income spectrum

:30:25.:30:29.

but lots of Muslims are not and even some of the Muslim groups like

:30:30.:30:34.

Bangladeshis who have historically not done so well educationally or in

:30:35.:30:38.

the economy and they are starting to do a lot better. As many Bangladeshi

:30:39.:30:44.

youths go to Russell group universities as white British kids

:30:45.:30:49.

and that is quite an achievement. What is to be done when we look at

:30:50.:30:53.

Birmingham and say there is a problem and we can see sources of

:30:54.:30:57.

extremism and councillors admit there is a problem. What is the

:30:58.:31:01.

solution? We need to identify exactly what the problem is and do

:31:02.:31:07.

different things, in Birmingham we have Sparkbrook or different cases

:31:08.:31:11.

where there are significant numbers of arrests of people who have been

:31:12.:31:15.

accused of terrorism but if you remove one of those rates, resulting

:31:16.:31:19.

in 14 people arrested, the percentage is similar to the rest of

:31:20.:31:24.

the country so we have to be careful but -- careful about looking at

:31:25.:31:27.

figures and when it comes to Birmingham, the people on the

:31:28.:31:30.

ground, the grassroots community, they are the people we need to look

:31:31.:31:34.

at to search for the right brain. There is very little that can be

:31:35.:31:39.

done about somebody with a knife who comes into Parliament. -- the right

:31:40.:31:46.

way. The opinion poll a few months ago showed that most Muslims have

:31:47.:31:49.

the same political worries as the rest of the population, there is not

:31:50.:31:53.

a huge gap but we have quite large parts of the Muslim leadership in

:31:54.:31:57.

this country who do paint a very negative picture of the country,

:31:58.:32:02.

particularly those from an Islamist background, and we want the Muslim

:32:03.:32:06.

leadership to be more positive about Britain in some ways and help

:32:07.:32:10.

provide those images and ideas. Great to talk to both of you. Thank

:32:11.:32:18.

you very much for your time. That's all we have time for. Have a lovely

:32:19.:32:21.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis.

The latest on the Westminster attacker, Donald Trump's healthcare bill fails, and what Brexit promises did the government make behind the scenes to Nissan?


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