Browse content similar to 24/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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What do we now know about what drove Khalid Masood to become the man | :00:11. | :00:13. | |
who murdered four people and injured 50 others in Westminster | :00:14. | :00:16. | |
Does he fit the profile of such an extreme and violent attacker? | :00:17. | :00:28. | |
What is so extraordinary about Khalid Masood? Known as Adrian elms | :00:29. | :00:37. | |
where he grew up in Tunbridge Wells, in the garden of England. | :00:38. | :00:40. | |
Westminster under attack - Who, what or where should be held | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
Also tonight - Did the Government give sweeteners to Nissan to stay | :00:46. | :00:49. | |
We came really close today, but we came up short. | :00:50. | :01:01. | |
A big setback for Donald Trump as his health care bill | :01:02. | :01:03. | |
crashes in Congress - killed by his own party. | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
I think we'll end up with a truly great health | :01:07. | :01:12. | |
care bill in the future, after this mess known | :01:13. | :01:15. | |
Today police issued an appeal for information | :01:16. | :01:31. | |
to anyone who can shed light on whether the Westminster attacker, | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
Khalid Masood, acted alone or was directed by others. | :01:35. | :01:36. | |
Police made two more "significant" arrests, | :01:37. | :01:37. | |
taking the total to 11 - six of whom were released tonight | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
Three vehicles were seized by police after an armed raid | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
Masood, who had used a number of aliases, | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
was believed to have been living in the West Midlands | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
He had previously spent time in West Sussex, East Sussex, | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
London and went to school in Tunbridge Wells, Kent. | :01:57. | :01:59. | |
John Sweeney has been looking more into the man responsible | :02:00. | :02:01. | |
for the deaths of four people and injuring 50 others. | :02:02. | :02:13. | |
Khalid Masood grew up in the garden of England. This is the story of a | :02:14. | :02:20. | |
Home Counties boy, who went on to strike terror in the heart of | :02:21. | :02:26. | |
London. Masood was born Adrian Elms on Christmas Day, 1964. His birth | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
was registered in Dartford, Kent. But he grew up in Tunbridge Wells, | :02:32. | :02:37. | |
where he most often used the surname Ajao, that of his mother's new | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
husband. He went to a secondary modern school | :02:42. | :02:48. | |
in Tunbridge Wells, where he was known as Adrian Ajao, a mixed race | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
people in a primarily white school. He was always laughing, always | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
joking. He was good at sport and played rugby well. Just an | :02:57. | :03:03. | |
unassuming guy. At some point after finishing school, Adrian moved to | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
this village in Sussex. Convicted for criminal damage at the age of | :03:08. | :03:13. | |
18, he stood out. I was under the impression that he was a black man | :03:14. | :03:20. | |
in a white man's pub, you know? And he was going to fight for it. I | :03:21. | :03:27. | |
said, look. I don't care if you are black or white. I am quite happy to | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
have a drink with you. If you want to buy new one now, I'm happy to | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
take it! -- by new one. I cannot even remember if he bought me one or | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
not, he shook my hand. Was he funny and intelligent? Yes. But some | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
people in the village saw a nasty side to Adrian. In 2000, Adrian | :03:49. | :03:54. | |
Elms, that was his name before he changed it to Masood, got into a | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
fight with another local. In the village boozer. | :03:59. | :04:05. | |
The fight turned nasty, the local paper reported there were racial | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
overtones and the other man ended up with a slash on the side of his face | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
needing 20 stitches. Adrian Elms was sent to prison. When you heard the | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
news about the attack in Westminster, what was your reaction? | :04:22. | :04:32. | |
Well, it was put over that it was a terrorist attack. But, having known | :04:33. | :04:40. | |
him and what I found out tonight, he was just a crazy man. Mind you, I | :04:41. | :04:49. | |
don't know how you could recognise him since, but he was not a | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
terrorist here. A drink? He was, yes. From here, to prison to | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
Eastbourne, and there, the first suggestion of an interest in is land | :05:01. | :05:06. | |
-- drinker. A friend at the time has told the BBC that he was using | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
cocaine at the time and also reading the Koran. In 2003 there was a fight | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
outside of this nursing home and in December he was found guilty of | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
possessing a knife. His last conviction aged just shy of 40. He | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
was still Adrian Elms. In November 2005, he first travelled | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
to Saudi Arabia, and used the name Khalid Masood. In all committee | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
spent two years there, teaching English. He toured here, at the | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
Saudi Civil Aviation Authority, in Jenner. | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
-- he taught here. In 2010, Khalid Masood was back in Blighty, in | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
Luton, we believe, teaching English. He had two children at the time he | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
was here, they appeared to be primary school children. He had a | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
people carrier and would load his children into a people carrier with | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
child seats. He was a portly gentleman, and frequently wearing | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
tracksuit bottoms. And also would be wearing slip on moccasins, quite | :06:08. | :06:10. | |
relaxed attire, I would say. Always gardening. By last year, he popped | :06:11. | :06:18. | |
up in London's East End. There had been searches there two. | :06:19. | :06:21. | |
He moved to Birmingham, most recently it seems in Ladywood. | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
Before that, Winson Green. He would help me to jump-start my car. He was | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
nice, a nice family. He would drop his kids at school. Normal stuff. | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
You would never think anything dodgy, of all of their neighbours on | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
the road. Last week, Khalid Masood returned south to the part of the | :06:41. | :06:43. | |
country where Adrian Elms had grown up. He stayed here, in this room. He | :06:44. | :06:50. | |
was joking, smiling and friendly. He was a very friendly person when he | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
came in. Actually, the receptionist said that he was a lovely guest, she | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
liked him. She put comments in the system. But he was a nice guest. | :07:00. | :07:08. | |
Then, the nice guest got into his car and drove to Westminster Bridge. | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
Khalid Masood spent time in three separate prisons | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
There has been a well-documented problem of Islamist radicalisation | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
Last year, Ian Acheson wrote a report for the Government | :07:20. | :07:26. | |
Thank you for joining me this evening. There is a lot we don't | :07:27. | :07:34. | |
know about Khalid Masood. That is very clear but we do know that he | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
spent time in Lewes prison, where you spent a short time as a governor | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
there. And a couple of other prisons, Weiland and Ford, which you | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
visited. Can you give me an idea that when you visited them, how or | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
where you would have been of the problem of radicalisation there? | :07:53. | :07:55. | |
Firstly, it's important to emphasise that we have no idea at this point | :07:56. | :08:07. | |
in time whether his periods of time in custody were relevant at all to | :08:08. | :08:09. | |
what he became, which was a murderous terrorist. Or, whether | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
they had significance. We need to be careful indeed about speculation. I | :08:13. | :08:15. | |
spent time working in the three prisoners he has been in during his | :08:16. | :08:18. | |
time in custody. They are very different, Lewes | :08:19. | :08:26. | |
prison is a Victorian prison, a multifunctional prison with | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
different sentences, local to the community. Wayland prison is a rural | :08:30. | :08:32. | |
prison setting a large area, it is category C and medium security, | :08:33. | :08:39. | |
which is set over a wide area. Ford is a prison which prisoners coming | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
to the end of their sentences, sometimes long sentences, will be in | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
and tested to see if they will survive in open conditions. There | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
might be an obvious answer, where you are more likely to be | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
radicalised, or will there be an experience of being exposed to | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
groups that would be potentially wanting to radicalise you? | :09:03. | :09:05. | |
Certainly, we drew attention in the report that I did for Michael Gove | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
to the fact that while the problem was well understood and contained in | :09:12. | :09:14. | |
the high security prison where the majority of prisoners serving | :09:15. | :09:17. | |
Stenton says for terror offences were kept, we were not at all clear | :09:18. | :09:24. | |
in the category C prisons and open prisons in the country, there was | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
the same level of competence, awareness or intervention to be able | :09:29. | :09:31. | |
to know what the extent of the problem was in those prisons -- | :09:32. | :09:37. | |
sentences. Or be able to intervene and address that behaviour. If that | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
is the case, how easy is it to identify a prisoner who could be | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
influenced by someone wanting to radicalise the new person in the | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
prison? The ingredients for radicalisation, which we concluded | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
from our report is a real, present and growing danger in this country, | :09:55. | :10:00. | |
it is very simple. You need a person with charisma who can | :10:01. | :10:07. | |
psychologically control and profit eyes hateful ideology. | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
You need a vulnerable and often highly violent young man, in search | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
of meaning and in prison for a long period of time, who have committed | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
serious crimes, and you need a narrative of grievance. Where you | :10:21. | :10:23. | |
have those three conditions, you will have, in prisons, the ideal | :10:24. | :10:26. | |
environment for growing this phenomenon. So, you have highlighted | :10:27. | :10:33. | |
young, in prison for a long time, sentenced for a long time, it almost | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
contradicts Khalid Masood's history? And if you were to look at Khalid | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
Masood and look at his past, what similarities could you draw, if any, | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
of those who have been radicalised? The problem is, the routes into and | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
out of radicalised behaviour and terrorist intent is extremely | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
complex. There's been a lot of work and research done by the Henry | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
Jackson Society, into the biographies of prisoners convicted | :11:03. | :11:05. | |
of terror offences, and it is difficult to discern a common to | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
dominate or pattern. It is exceptionally difficult, | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
especially with the lone actor terrorists as well, and there is | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
speculation that this man acted alone, but we are not clear yet. The | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
police are actively investigating what support or help or inspiration | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
he may have had. They are particularly difficult to identify. | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
Coming back into prisons, the word I hear from you is "Difficult". The | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
conclusion I have drawn, correct me if I am wrong, but it is impossible | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
to eradicate radicalisation in prisons at this time? | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
There is a huge amount of work in prisons to be done to make them | :11:43. | :11:44. | |
places where extreme as is driven out, I made a number of | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
recommendations, I am pleased to say that the government have accepted | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
those, in order to deal with the problem. They include separating the | :11:54. | :12:01. | |
most psychologically dangerous extremists from their audiences. | :12:02. | :12:03. | |
There is intelligence suggesting there are a small number of people | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
who need separating from people vulnerable to the head for messages, | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
that's one way we can directly interfere with the process of | :12:12. | :12:14. | |
radicalisation, it is an urgent issue and I know the government are | :12:15. | :12:17. | |
tackling it. There are issues about the quality of chaplaincy, the | :12:18. | :12:23. | |
Islamist chaplaincy in prisons, they need addressing, and a fundamental | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
issue about support and training for staff, who told us in great numbers | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
that they were fearful of intervening and promoting British | :12:32. | :12:33. | |
values in prisons because they simply did not have that | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
expectation. There are many issues, thank you | :12:38. | :12:39. | |
very much for joining us. The President who prides himself | :12:40. | :12:41. | |
in being able to drive a hard bargain and always get the deal done | :12:42. | :12:43. | |
has suffered a major setback this evening, | :12:44. | :12:50. | |
despite his determination to repeal and replace Obamacare, his bill has | :12:51. | :12:52. | |
failed to pass through Congress. President Trump ordered | :12:53. | :12:54. | |
that the vote was pulled just moments before it was to take place | :12:55. | :12:56. | |
as support among Republican Our correspondent Laura Bicker | :12:57. | :12:59. | |
is in Washington. Hello, Laura. What does this mean | :13:00. | :13:12. | |
for Trump and the Republicans? When it comes to the Republican party, | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
they look like the party of drama, defeat and disappointment. When it | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
came down to it, after seven years of promising to repeal and replace | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
Obamacare, when it came down to the moment of asking, they just could | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
not do it. They were spared the humiliation of defeat after not | :13:31. | :13:37. | |
calling the vote, but it does look incredibly embarrassing. It is a | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
real setback for the Republicans. The right of the party didn't like | :13:42. | :13:44. | |
the bill, neither did the left. It meant they could not find some | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
consensus and serious questions will be asked about their governing | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
abilities going forward. Will they be able to make real decisions? Real | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
policy decisions. Paul Ryan, House Speaker, dismissed | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
it as a growing pains of his government, but he will have to go | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
away and lick his wounds, wondering how to move forward. | :14:08. | :14:10. | |
President Trump has sold himself as the ultimate deal-maker and when it | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
came to it, coming to his first attempt at legislation come he came | :14:15. | :14:16. | |
up short. Sometimes failure is good? You said | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
there were Douzable -- disagreements that | :14:21. | :14:23. | |
-- at both ends of the party, maybe it is good for him to fail this time | :14:24. | :14:30. | |
around? It is interesting, looking at the states which voted for Donald | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
Trump, thousands within those states would have lost their current health | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
care insurance if this had gone through. It's interesting to watch | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
the popularity of Obamacare, the affordable health care right. During | :14:43. | :14:48. | |
the campaign, under constant attack by Republicans, Donald Trump, and | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
the Democrats to properly defend it, the popularity of Obamacare went | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
really far down. And it meant people thought there were real problems | :14:58. | :15:00. | |
with it, and there are. Some insurance premiums have skyrocketed | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
and for others, they have very little choice when it comes to their | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
health care. But, as the repeal and replace has gone through, as people | :15:09. | :15:16. | |
have been able to look at it and go, what will I lose? | :15:17. | :15:19. | |
Suddenly, Obamacare seems more popular and you are right, it might | :15:20. | :15:22. | |
be better for Donald Trump to have left things as they are. | :15:23. | :15:25. | |
But the Democrats would be the first to admit that something needs to be | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
done. There are problems within this bill. They say it needs nurturing, | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
not neglect. They are calling on their Republican colleagues to come | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
together to go forward, but for now, Obamacare remains in place. It | :15:39. | :15:41. | |
certainly does, Laura, thank you. It's good to talk to you. | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
When Nissan announced that it would continue to build new models | :15:46. | :15:47. | |
and invest in its car plant in Sunderland after the referendum - | :15:48. | :15:50. | |
there were cheers, not only from the Japanese car-maker's | :15:51. | :15:52. | |
employees, but also from British politicians keen to show that the UK | :15:53. | :15:55. | |
Theresa May declared it "fantastic news". | :15:56. | :15:58. | |
So what made Nissan so confident that a post-Brexit Britain would be | :15:59. | :16:01. | |
a productive enough environment to keep manufacturing in? | :16:02. | :16:04. | |
Chris Cook has been digging around and is here with new information. | :16:05. | :16:12. | |
This is an intriguing outcome, it was the time and still is and to | :16:13. | :16:20. | |
find out more, you had to submit a Freedom of Information request? Yes, | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
and they are supposed to take 20 working days to come back, this one | :16:26. | :16:32. | |
has taken six months. Also, we received this this evening at ten | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
past six on evening, which is when you do not want journalists looking | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
at this carefully. Newsnight does not have the same working hours as | :16:44. | :16:50. | |
other news outlets! We ask for a lot, correspondence between Nissan | :16:51. | :16:52. | |
and the government and there is a critical letter between Greg Clark | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
and Nissan sent from the government to Nissan, the smoking gun which we | :16:58. | :17:05. | |
did not get. The release is full of reductions and unfortunately that is | :17:06. | :17:08. | |
one of the things the government has committed to eventually releasing | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
but not for now. Do we know why not? They say because they have committed | :17:14. | :17:16. | |
to releasing this in the future, they do not need to release this | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
right now, there is a future publication schedule, which is a | :17:22. | :17:24. | |
ridiculous excuse but they are sticking with it. There is a smoking | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
gun and were not allowed to see it but we will in the future. We have | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
got stuff today. Among the logistics of setting up meetings and one of | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
the things this shows is how much effort the government was going to | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
see Nissan, Greg Clark went to Japan, there were meetings and | :17:45. | :17:47. | |
conference calls and a meeting between somebody from the business | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
Department and the chair of Nissan on the fringes of the Paris motor | :17:53. | :17:56. | |
show but also a letter that gives good detail about what Nissan are | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
asking for, not what they were talking about in relation to Brexit | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
and trading negotiations, that is redacted but we have something | :18:05. | :18:10. | |
interesting about other things. Any company would want a shopping list | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
in times of uncertainty. This and asked for three things. In | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
mid-October, three things. They wanted tax incentives for people to | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
buy electric cars, they wanted the government to put more money into | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
providing charging points and they wanted a change planning laws and | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
local authorities would have to put in more charging points. That is | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
what they ask for in mid-October and by the end of November, the | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
government had opened a consultation on changing the rules around petrol | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
stations so that they would have to have more charging points, they got | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
a tax incentive for ultralow emission vehicles and the extra | :18:53. | :18:58. | |
money for high-speed charging. I will not save the government | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
definitely did what Nissan asked but it is very striking that all of the | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
specific demands not about Brexit that were in the power of the | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
government to deliver, they ask this in mid-October and had them by the | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
end of November. Should we make clear that what Nissan was asking | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
for, people would not think that was unreasonable? There is not a wild | :19:19. | :19:24. | |
U-turn by the government, it does not show corruption or anything else | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
but it shows that I think it is there to say that the government was | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
clearly listening to Nissan and we should point out that last autumn, | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
Nick Watt was reporting that some of these measures appeared to be just | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
to appease Nissan so there is good reason to think these things are | :19:42. | :19:44. | |
connected. We don't know when we will get that letter? Some point in | :19:45. | :19:50. | |
the future! We will be back talking about that. Thank you. | :19:51. | :19:53. | |
Let's go back to the aftermath of Wednesday's attack in Westminster. | :19:54. | :19:55. | |
The last place that Khalid Masood was believed to have been | :19:56. | :19:58. | |
living was Birmingham - a city that has regularly been | :19:59. | :20:00. | |
Our correspondent David Grossman has been to the city | :20:01. | :20:03. | |
where most of the arrests, so far by police in relation | :20:04. | :20:06. | |
Noon in Birmingham and a pause for thought. | :20:07. | :20:18. | |
In an itinerant life, Khalid Masood had connections to many places, | :20:19. | :20:20. | |
but this is where he most recently called home. | :20:21. | :20:28. | |
Others are now, rightly or wrongly, looking | :20:29. | :20:36. | |
to for explanations for the murder and destruction he caused. | :20:37. | :20:39. | |
Every time there is a terrorist outrage it seems all eyes and quite | :20:40. | :20:42. | |
a few accusing fingers are directed towards Birmingham. | :20:43. | :20:44. | |
And if so, is enough being done to solve it. | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
Do you think Birmingham has a problem? | :20:49. | :20:49. | |
I think there is an issue and that is proven statistically, | :20:50. | :20:52. | |
to see the number of arrests that have been made, the number of plots | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
that have been planned shows that there is an issue, | :20:57. | :20:58. | |
a significant in Birmingham in relation to the rest | :20:59. | :21:00. | |
People have got to stand up to this and say, look, | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
You are not treading on people's toes, it is not about sensitivities, | :21:05. | :21:14. | |
it is about making sure that what is conformed to, | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
the society that we're part of, and were and young people | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
particularly are being groomed towards radicalisation, | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
we have to call that out and call it out properly. | :21:26. | :21:28. | |
At Birmingham Central Mosque, Friday prayers begin | :21:29. | :21:29. | |
with an unequivocal condemnation of the London attack. | :21:30. | :21:35. | |
As evil, the congregation were told, as it was un-Islamic. | :21:36. | :21:38. | |
However, when you ask the Birmingham MP, Khaled Mahmud, | :21:39. | :21:41. | |
who needs to do more to challenge the processes that lead | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
lead to radicalisation, top of his list are the city's | :21:47. | :21:48. | |
You can only challenge them if you happen to | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
And then we're quite happy to challenge them them. | :21:53. | :21:59. | |
Because I think the situation is that these people do these | :22:00. | :22:01. | |
activities by reading the literature from all these websites. | :22:02. | :22:03. | |
And all these electronic gadgets are so freely available. | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
People learn radicalisation from those. | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
Mosques do not teach them to become radicalised. | :22:12. | :22:18. | |
But Muhammad Afzal is not just the chairman of the mosque. | :22:19. | :22:21. | |
He is a long-standing and prominent Labour councillor here. | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
Birmingham is a city where religion and politics mix. | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
According to Labour's opponents, the result is an unhealthy | :22:31. | :22:32. | |
We all know that the way voting works in many communities, | :22:33. | :22:45. | |
you have the block vote, the clan vote, the postal vote | :22:46. | :22:47. | |
and we know that they are 1-party states, if you will, | :22:48. | :22:50. | |
and selections are often made by families and packing | :22:51. | :22:52. | |
So it is difficult to achieve change through the ballot box and often | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
it is not in people's interests to really rock the vote. | :22:57. | :22:59. | |
It leads to disempowerment, it leads to poverty, | :23:00. | :23:02. | |
it leads to people not being able to participate in society and one | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
of those consequences is that it allows radicalisation | :23:07. | :23:08. | |
It is one of two Parliamentary constituencies identified by recent | :23:09. | :23:19. | |
reports as accounting for three quarters of Birmingham's Islamist | :23:20. | :23:21. | |
This group of lads blame social media, definitely | :23:22. | :23:24. | |
What has been going on in London and all these links and everything, | :23:25. | :23:32. | |
we're the first people to speak up about these things and say, | :23:33. | :23:35. | |
we don't agree with what is going on and we are deeply sorry | :23:36. | :23:38. | |
for the people that have been hurt and to their families as well. | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
Answering the question, I don't think... | :23:43. | :23:44. | |
In Sparkbrook, I don't think there is radicalisation | :23:45. | :23:47. | |
but it is easy to say because this area, the majority are Muslim | :23:48. | :23:50. | |
And it is easy to target this area or certain areas and say, | :23:51. | :23:57. | |
these areas are radicalised and so on. | :23:58. | :23:59. | |
We think that this is a tight-knit community | :24:00. | :24:01. | |
Mohammed Ashfak is the director of KIKIT, an organisation that, | :24:02. | :24:10. | |
with public money, tries to turn round vulnerable lives. | :24:11. | :24:21. | |
Radicalisation, they believe, is the same product | :24:22. | :24:22. | |
We stopped two youngsters from going over to Syria that | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
had a range of issues, they were addicted to drugs | :24:27. | :24:28. | |
They actually have their tickets booked, they were going to fly over | :24:29. | :24:42. | |
and they were being groomed by going online and watching videos of Isis. | :24:43. | :24:45. | |
It is safeguarding, that is how we approached it | :24:46. | :24:47. | |
And people who try and radicalise other people, it is a grooming | :24:48. | :24:53. | |
process, the same way you get with child sexual exploitation. | :24:54. | :24:55. | |
Just the same way as you get with any other grooming process. | :24:56. | :24:58. | |
At the Birmingham Bullring there was another vigil today. | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
Very different from the one outside the Town Hall earlier. | :25:03. | :25:05. | |
This has been organised by a group called Stand Up To Racism | :25:06. | :25:07. | |
and the concern here is that the crimes of a few are | :25:08. | :25:10. | |
The fact that awful things happen does not mean that | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
And I think the onus should be on how do we come together, how do | :25:15. | :25:20. | |
But at the same time, how do we do so in a manner that | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
doesn't give more oxygen to the very people who celebrate | :25:26. | :25:27. | |
And I would say those people are two kinds. | :25:28. | :25:34. | |
People like Isis, who want to betray an image that they are | :25:35. | :25:37. | |
And also the far right groups, who then exploit the tensions that | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
That is what we should be looking at, taking that | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
step back and thinking, is this a helpful way to respond? | :25:46. | :25:47. | |
How do we frame the problem and get to the roots | :25:48. | :25:50. | |
Although another terrorist attack linked to Birmingham causes | :25:51. | :26:05. | |
discomfort here, in a sense it makes agreement easier. | :26:06. | :26:08. | |
Everyone condemns and everyone extends sympathy. | :26:09. | :26:09. | |
What is far harder to find, though, is a consensus | :26:10. | :26:11. | |
Let's discuss the root causes of these problems - | :26:12. | :26:21. | |
I'm joined by David Goodhart, author of the Road to Somewhere | :26:22. | :26:23. | |
and Miqdaad Versi from the Muslim Council of Britain. | :26:24. | :26:30. | |
Do you recognise the picture in that report? Integration and | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
multiculturalism failing in places like that? I do recognise that | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
picture and I think the terrorist attack in Westminster was from a man | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
who was alone will, unbalanced, but we clearly have a problem with | :26:47. | :26:53. | |
Islamic extremism in Britain, 3000 people under constant surveillance | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
and even if you take the 3% in certain opinion polls who support | :26:59. | :27:03. | |
violent extremism, that are still 100,000 British Muslims, a worrying | :27:04. | :27:10. | |
figure. Muslims tend to live somewhat more segregated than other | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
minorities. Is that fair? It is worth challenging one of those | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
points, 3% of Muslims sympathise with terrorism, the previous ICN | :27:20. | :27:25. | |
poll showed that 4% of the general population sympathise with | :27:26. | :27:31. | |
terrorism. Lots of opinion polls said 7% or 8% of the Muslim | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
community. The point is, the way we ask the question presents a certain | :27:36. | :27:42. | |
answer and a 4% of the population have sympathy with terrorism, that | :27:43. | :27:45. | |
would be hundreds of thousands of people so let us move away from the | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
idea that Muslims sympathise with terrorism. A very small number. This | :27:50. | :27:58. | |
is not scaremongering. How can we prevent these kids, most of them are | :27:59. | :28:01. | |
kids were young men, getting diverted on their life track into | :28:02. | :28:10. | |
this new identity, this disaffected identity that seems to be attractive | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
to them. This is a problem for liberal societies, to provide | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
attractive national identities for all of our kids. All of our kids | :28:19. | :28:24. | |
should belong to Britain and feel that Britain belongs to them and it | :28:25. | :28:27. | |
seems to be quite difficult in our kind of society to provide those | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
identities. You said that young people, Khalid Masood was 52? A | :28:33. | :28:40. | |
disproportionate number are under 35. We firstly have to distinguish | :28:41. | :28:48. | |
between the idea of segregation and extremism, the idea that one leads | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
to another is not a simple process that is clear, people who are | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
segregated are more like to be extremists. I don't think there is | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
evidence. I would agree, extremists come from everywhere, all levels of | :29:01. | :29:06. | |
education, people who have been to Cambridge. Segregation is not the | :29:07. | :29:12. | |
problem? It is a problem in itself and it is a separate problem, it may | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
have some relation to extremism in some cases but the fact that Muslims | :29:18. | :29:23. | |
live more separately from the rest of society than other minorities is | :29:24. | :29:26. | |
an issue that we should continue to talk about and do something about. | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
Birmingham is a very segregated city but it goes back several decades | :29:31. | :29:35. | |
when many of the white people moved to North fields and different | :29:36. | :29:38. | |
minorities became concentrated in particular areas and we can learn | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
from the mistakes of the past and allowing that to happen, to lean | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
against those clustering tendencies. It is worth noting that Muslims have | :29:48. | :29:53. | |
become less segregated in the last ten years and many reports sure | :29:54. | :29:56. | |
we're doing a lot of positive things. We sometimes do not | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
celebrate our diversity. If you look that great role models, the Mayor of | :30:02. | :30:07. | |
London, Nadiya Hussain. Is that the way to improve the situation? To | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
make sure that perhaps if you are a strong faith, you are not seen as | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
someone outside the group willing to integrate? And make it clear that | :30:18. | :30:21. | |
young Muslims have very good opportunities in this country, many | :30:22. | :30:24. | |
Muslims are concentrated in the bottom part of the income spectrum | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
but lots of Muslims are not and even some of the Muslim groups like | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
Bangladeshis who have historically not done so well educationally or in | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
the economy and they are starting to do a lot better. As many Bangladeshi | :30:39. | :30:44. | |
youths go to Russell group universities as white British kids | :30:45. | :30:49. | |
and that is quite an achievement. What is to be done when we look at | :30:50. | :30:53. | |
Birmingham and say there is a problem and we can see sources of | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
extremism and councillors admit there is a problem. What is the | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
solution? We need to identify exactly what the problem is and do | :31:02. | :31:07. | |
different things, in Birmingham we have Sparkbrook or different cases | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
where there are significant numbers of arrests of people who have been | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
accused of terrorism but if you remove one of those rates, resulting | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
in 14 people arrested, the percentage is similar to the rest of | :31:20. | :31:24. | |
the country so we have to be careful but -- careful about looking at | :31:25. | :31:27. | |
figures and when it comes to Birmingham, the people on the | :31:28. | :31:30. | |
ground, the grassroots community, they are the people we need to look | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
at to search for the right brain. There is very little that can be | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
done about somebody with a knife who comes into Parliament. -- the right | :31:40. | :31:46. | |
way. The opinion poll a few months ago showed that most Muslims have | :31:47. | :31:49. | |
the same political worries as the rest of the population, there is not | :31:50. | :31:53. | |
a huge gap but we have quite large parts of the Muslim leadership in | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
this country who do paint a very negative picture of the country, | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
particularly those from an Islamist background, and we want the Muslim | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
leadership to be more positive about Britain in some ways and help | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
provide those images and ideas. Great to talk to both of you. Thank | :32:11. | :32:18. | |
you very much for your time. That's all we have time for. Have a lovely | :32:19. | :32:21. |