24/03/2017 Newsnight


With Emily Maitlis. The latest on the Westminster attacker, Donald Trump's healthcare bill fails, and what Brexit promises did the government make behind the scenes to Nissan?

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What do we now know about what drove Khalid Masood to become the man


who murdered four people and injured 50 others in Westminster


Does he fit the profile of such an extreme and violent attacker?


What is so extraordinary about Khalid Masood? Known as Adrian elms


where he grew up in Tunbridge Wells, in the garden of England.


Westminster under attack - Who, what or where should be held


Also tonight - Did the Government give sweeteners to Nissan to stay


We came really close today, but we came up short.


A big setback for Donald Trump as his health care bill


crashes in Congress - killed by his own party.


I think we'll end up with a truly great health


care bill in the future, after this mess known


Today police issued an appeal for information


to anyone who can shed light on whether the Westminster attacker,


Khalid Masood, acted alone or was directed by others.


Police made two more "significant" arrests,


taking the total to 11 - six of whom were released tonight


Three vehicles were seized by police after an armed raid


Masood, who had used a number of aliases,


was believed to have been living in the West Midlands


He had previously spent time in West Sussex, East Sussex,


London and went to school in Tunbridge Wells, Kent.


John Sweeney has been looking more into the man responsible


for the deaths of four people and injuring 50 others.


Khalid Masood grew up in the garden of England. This is the story of a


Home Counties boy, who went on to strike terror in the heart of


London. Masood was born Adrian Elms on Christmas Day, 1964. His birth


was registered in Dartford, Kent. But he grew up in Tunbridge Wells,


where he most often used the surname Ajao, that of his mother's new


husband. He went to a secondary modern school


in Tunbridge Wells, where he was known as Adrian Ajao, a mixed race


people in a primarily white school. He was always laughing, always


joking. He was good at sport and played rugby well. Just an


unassuming guy. At some point after finishing school, Adrian moved to


this village in Sussex. Convicted for criminal damage at the age of


18, he stood out. I was under the impression that he was a black man


in a white man's pub, you know? And he was going to fight for it. I


said, look. I don't care if you are black or white. I am quite happy to


have a drink with you. If you want to buy new one now, I'm happy to


take it! -- by new one. I cannot even remember if he bought me one or


not, he shook my hand. Was he funny and intelligent? Yes. But some


people in the village saw a nasty side to Adrian. In 2000, Adrian


Elms, that was his name before he changed it to Masood, got into a


fight with another local. In the village boozer.


The fight turned nasty, the local paper reported there were racial


overtones and the other man ended up with a slash on the side of his face


needing 20 stitches. Adrian Elms was sent to prison. When you heard the


news about the attack in Westminster, what was your reaction?


Well, it was put over that it was a terrorist attack. But, having known


him and what I found out tonight, he was just a crazy man. Mind you, I


don't know how you could recognise him since, but he was not a


terrorist here. A drink? He was, yes. From here, to prison to


Eastbourne, and there, the first suggestion of an interest in is land


-- drinker. A friend at the time has told the BBC that he was using


cocaine at the time and also reading the Koran. In 2003 there was a fight


outside of this nursing home and in December he was found guilty of


possessing a knife. His last conviction aged just shy of 40. He


was still Adrian Elms. In November 2005, he first travelled


to Saudi Arabia, and used the name Khalid Masood. In all committee


spent two years there, teaching English. He toured here, at the


Saudi Civil Aviation Authority, in Jenner.


-- he taught here. In 2010, Khalid Masood was back in Blighty, in


Luton, we believe, teaching English. He had two children at the time he


was here, they appeared to be primary school children. He had a


people carrier and would load his children into a people carrier with


child seats. He was a portly gentleman, and frequently wearing


tracksuit bottoms. And also would be wearing slip on moccasins, quite


relaxed attire, I would say. Always gardening. By last year, he popped


up in London's East End. There had been searches there two.


He moved to Birmingham, most recently it seems in Ladywood.


Before that, Winson Green. He would help me to jump-start my car. He was


nice, a nice family. He would drop his kids at school. Normal stuff.


You would never think anything dodgy, of all of their neighbours on


the road. Last week, Khalid Masood returned south to the part of the


country where Adrian Elms had grown up. He stayed here, in this room. He


was joking, smiling and friendly. He was a very friendly person when he


came in. Actually, the receptionist said that he was a lovely guest, she


liked him. She put comments in the system. But he was a nice guest.


Then, the nice guest got into his car and drove to Westminster Bridge.


Khalid Masood spent time in three separate prisons


There has been a well-documented problem of Islamist radicalisation


Last year, Ian Acheson wrote a report for the Government


Thank you for joining me this evening. There is a lot we don't


know about Khalid Masood. That is very clear but we do know that he


spent time in Lewes prison, where you spent a short time as a governor


there. And a couple of other prisons, Weiland and Ford, which you


visited. Can you give me an idea that when you visited them, how or


where you would have been of the problem of radicalisation there?


Firstly, it's important to emphasise that we have no idea at this point


in time whether his periods of time in custody were relevant at all to


what he became, which was a murderous terrorist. Or, whether


they had significance. We need to be careful indeed about speculation. I


spent time working in the three prisoners he has been in during his


time in custody. They are very different, Lewes


prison is a Victorian prison, a multifunctional prison with


different sentences, local to the community. Wayland prison is a rural


prison setting a large area, it is category C and medium security,


which is set over a wide area. Ford is a prison which prisoners coming


to the end of their sentences, sometimes long sentences, will be in


and tested to see if they will survive in open conditions. There


might be an obvious answer, where you are more likely to be


radicalised, or will there be an experience of being exposed to


groups that would be potentially wanting to radicalise you?


Certainly, we drew attention in the report that I did for Michael Gove


to the fact that while the problem was well understood and contained in


the high security prison where the majority of prisoners serving


Stenton says for terror offences were kept, we were not at all clear


in the category C prisons and open prisons in the country, there was


the same level of competence, awareness or intervention to be able


to know what the extent of the problem was in those prisons --


sentences. Or be able to intervene and address that behaviour. If that


is the case, how easy is it to identify a prisoner who could be


influenced by someone wanting to radicalise the new person in the


prison? The ingredients for radicalisation, which we concluded


from our report is a real, present and growing danger in this country,


it is very simple. You need a person with charisma who can


psychologically control and profit eyes hateful ideology.


You need a vulnerable and often highly violent young man, in search


of meaning and in prison for a long period of time, who have committed


serious crimes, and you need a narrative of grievance. Where you


have those three conditions, you will have, in prisons, the ideal


environment for growing this phenomenon. So, you have highlighted


young, in prison for a long time, sentenced for a long time, it almost


contradicts Khalid Masood's history? And if you were to look at Khalid


Masood and look at his past, what similarities could you draw, if any,


of those who have been radicalised? The problem is, the routes into and


out of radicalised behaviour and terrorist intent is extremely


complex. There's been a lot of work and research done by the Henry


Jackson Society, into the biographies of prisoners convicted


of terror offences, and it is difficult to discern a common to


dominate or pattern. It is exceptionally difficult,


especially with the lone actor terrorists as well, and there is


speculation that this man acted alone, but we are not clear yet. The


police are actively investigating what support or help or inspiration


he may have had. They are particularly difficult to identify.


Coming back into prisons, the word I hear from you is "Difficult". The


conclusion I have drawn, correct me if I am wrong, but it is impossible


to eradicate radicalisation in prisons at this time?


There is a huge amount of work in prisons to be done to make them


places where extreme as is driven out, I made a number of


recommendations, I am pleased to say that the government have accepted


those, in order to deal with the problem. They include separating the


most psychologically dangerous extremists from their audiences.


There is intelligence suggesting there are a small number of people


who need separating from people vulnerable to the head for messages,


that's one way we can directly interfere with the process of


radicalisation, it is an urgent issue and I know the government are


tackling it. There are issues about the quality of chaplaincy, the


Islamist chaplaincy in prisons, they need addressing, and a fundamental


issue about support and training for staff, who told us in great numbers


that they were fearful of intervening and promoting British


values in prisons because they simply did not have that


expectation. There are many issues, thank you


very much for joining us. The President who prides himself


in being able to drive a hard bargain and always get the deal done


has suffered a major setback this evening,


despite his determination to repeal and replace Obamacare, his bill has


failed to pass through Congress. President Trump ordered


that the vote was pulled just moments before it was to take place


as support among Republican Our correspondent Laura Bicker


is in Washington. Hello, Laura. What does this mean


for Trump and the Republicans? When it comes to the Republican party,


they look like the party of drama, defeat and disappointment. When it


came down to it, after seven years of promising to repeal and replace


Obamacare, when it came down to the moment of asking, they just could


not do it. They were spared the humiliation of defeat after not


calling the vote, but it does look incredibly embarrassing. It is a


real setback for the Republicans. The right of the party didn't like


the bill, neither did the left. It meant they could not find some


consensus and serious questions will be asked about their governing


abilities going forward. Will they be able to make real decisions? Real


policy decisions. Paul Ryan, House Speaker, dismissed


it as a growing pains of his government, but he will have to go


away and lick his wounds, wondering how to move forward.


President Trump has sold himself as the ultimate deal-maker and when it


came to it, coming to his first attempt at legislation come he came


up short. Sometimes failure is good? You said


there were Douzable -- disagreements that


-- at both ends of the party, maybe it is good for him to fail this time


around? It is interesting, looking at the states which voted for Donald


Trump, thousands within those states would have lost their current health


care insurance if this had gone through. It's interesting to watch


the popularity of Obamacare, the affordable health care right. During


the campaign, under constant attack by Republicans, Donald Trump, and


the Democrats to properly defend it, the popularity of Obamacare went


really far down. And it meant people thought there were real problems


with it, and there are. Some insurance premiums have skyrocketed


and for others, they have very little choice when it comes to their


health care. But, as the repeal and replace has gone through, as people


have been able to look at it and go, what will I lose?


Suddenly, Obamacare seems more popular and you are right, it might


be better for Donald Trump to have left things as they are.


But the Democrats would be the first to admit that something needs to be


done. There are problems within this bill. They say it needs nurturing,


not neglect. They are calling on their Republican colleagues to come


together to go forward, but for now, Obamacare remains in place. It


certainly does, Laura, thank you. It's good to talk to you.


When Nissan announced that it would continue to build new models


and invest in its car plant in Sunderland after the referendum -


there were cheers, not only from the Japanese car-maker's


employees, but also from British politicians keen to show that the UK


Theresa May declared it "fantastic news".


So what made Nissan so confident that a post-Brexit Britain would be


a productive enough environment to keep manufacturing in?


Chris Cook has been digging around and is here with new information.


This is an intriguing outcome, it was the time and still is and to


find out more, you had to submit a Freedom of Information request? Yes,


and they are supposed to take 20 working days to come back, this one


has taken six months. Also, we received this this evening at ten


past six on evening, which is when you do not want journalists looking


at this carefully. Newsnight does not have the same working hours as


other news outlets! We ask for a lot, correspondence between Nissan


and the government and there is a critical letter between Greg Clark


and Nissan sent from the government to Nissan, the smoking gun which we


did not get. The release is full of reductions and unfortunately that is


one of the things the government has committed to eventually releasing


but not for now. Do we know why not? They say because they have committed


to releasing this in the future, they do not need to release this


right now, there is a future publication schedule, which is a


ridiculous excuse but they are sticking with it. There is a smoking


gun and were not allowed to see it but we will in the future. We have


got stuff today. Among the logistics of setting up meetings and one of


the things this shows is how much effort the government was going to


see Nissan, Greg Clark went to Japan, there were meetings and


conference calls and a meeting between somebody from the business


Department and the chair of Nissan on the fringes of the Paris motor


show but also a letter that gives good detail about what Nissan are


asking for, not what they were talking about in relation to Brexit


and trading negotiations, that is redacted but we have something


interesting about other things. Any company would want a shopping list


in times of uncertainty. This and asked for three things. In


mid-October, three things. They wanted tax incentives for people to


buy electric cars, they wanted the government to put more money into


providing charging points and they wanted a change planning laws and


local authorities would have to put in more charging points. That is


what they ask for in mid-October and by the end of November, the


government had opened a consultation on changing the rules around petrol


stations so that they would have to have more charging points, they got


a tax incentive for ultralow emission vehicles and the extra


money for high-speed charging. I will not save the government


definitely did what Nissan asked but it is very striking that all of the


specific demands not about Brexit that were in the power of the


government to deliver, they ask this in mid-October and had them by the


end of November. Should we make clear that what Nissan was asking


for, people would not think that was unreasonable? There is not a wild


U-turn by the government, it does not show corruption or anything else


but it shows that I think it is there to say that the government was


clearly listening to Nissan and we should point out that last autumn,


Nick Watt was reporting that some of these measures appeared to be just


to appease Nissan so there is good reason to think these things are


connected. We don't know when we will get that letter? Some point in


the future! We will be back talking about that. Thank you.


Let's go back to the aftermath of Wednesday's attack in Westminster.


The last place that Khalid Masood was believed to have been


living was Birmingham - a city that has regularly been


Our correspondent David Grossman has been to the city


where most of the arrests, so far by police in relation


Noon in Birmingham and a pause for thought.


In an itinerant life, Khalid Masood had connections to many places,


but this is where he most recently called home.


Others are now, rightly or wrongly, looking


to for explanations for the murder and destruction he caused.


Every time there is a terrorist outrage it seems all eyes and quite


a few accusing fingers are directed towards Birmingham.


And if so, is enough being done to solve it.


Do you think Birmingham has a problem?


I think there is an issue and that is proven statistically,


to see the number of arrests that have been made, the number of plots


that have been planned shows that there is an issue,


a significant in Birmingham in relation to the rest


People have got to stand up to this and say, look,


You are not treading on people's toes, it is not about sensitivities,


it is about making sure that what is conformed to,


the society that we're part of, and were and young people


particularly are being groomed towards radicalisation,


we have to call that out and call it out properly.


At Birmingham Central Mosque, Friday prayers begin


with an unequivocal condemnation of the London attack.


As evil, the congregation were told, as it was un-Islamic.


However, when you ask the Birmingham MP, Khaled Mahmud,


who needs to do more to challenge the processes that lead


lead to radicalisation, top of his list are the city's


You can only challenge them if you happen to


And then we're quite happy to challenge them them.


Because I think the situation is that these people do these


activities by reading the literature from all these websites.


And all these electronic gadgets are so freely available.


People learn radicalisation from those.


Mosques do not teach them to become radicalised.


But Muhammad Afzal is not just the chairman of the mosque.


He is a long-standing and prominent Labour councillor here.


Birmingham is a city where religion and politics mix.


According to Labour's opponents, the result is an unhealthy


We all know that the way voting works in many communities,


you have the block vote, the clan vote, the postal vote


and we know that they are 1-party states, if you will,


and selections are often made by families and packing


So it is difficult to achieve change through the ballot box and often


it is not in people's interests to really rock the vote.


It leads to disempowerment, it leads to poverty,


it leads to people not being able to participate in society and one


of those consequences is that it allows radicalisation


It is one of two Parliamentary constituencies identified by recent


reports as accounting for three quarters of Birmingham's Islamist


This group of lads blame social media, definitely


What has been going on in London and all these links and everything,


we're the first people to speak up about these things and say,


we don't agree with what is going on and we are deeply sorry


for the people that have been hurt and to their families as well.


Answering the question, I don't think...


In Sparkbrook, I don't think there is radicalisation


but it is easy to say because this area, the majority are Muslim


And it is easy to target this area or certain areas and say,


these areas are radicalised and so on.


We think that this is a tight-knit community


Mohammed Ashfak is the director of KIKIT, an organisation that,


with public money, tries to turn round vulnerable lives.


Radicalisation, they believe, is the same product


We stopped two youngsters from going over to Syria that


had a range of issues, they were addicted to drugs


They actually have their tickets booked, they were going to fly over


and they were being groomed by going online and watching videos of Isis.


It is safeguarding, that is how we approached it


And people who try and radicalise other people, it is a grooming


process, the same way you get with child sexual exploitation.


Just the same way as you get with any other grooming process.


At the Birmingham Bullring there was another vigil today.


Very different from the one outside the Town Hall earlier.


This has been organised by a group called Stand Up To Racism


and the concern here is that the crimes of a few are


The fact that awful things happen does not mean that


And I think the onus should be on how do we come together, how do


But at the same time, how do we do so in a manner that


doesn't give more oxygen to the very people who celebrate


And I would say those people are two kinds.


People like Isis, who want to betray an image that they are


And also the far right groups, who then exploit the tensions that


That is what we should be looking at, taking that


step back and thinking, is this a helpful way to respond?


How do we frame the problem and get to the roots


Although another terrorist attack linked to Birmingham causes


discomfort here, in a sense it makes agreement easier.


Everyone condemns and everyone extends sympathy.


What is far harder to find, though, is a consensus


Let's discuss the root causes of these problems -


I'm joined by David Goodhart, author of the Road to Somewhere


and Miqdaad Versi from the Muslim Council of Britain.


Do you recognise the picture in that report? Integration and


multiculturalism failing in places like that? I do recognise that


picture and I think the terrorist attack in Westminster was from a man


who was alone will, unbalanced, but we clearly have a problem with


Islamic extremism in Britain, 3000 people under constant surveillance


and even if you take the 3% in certain opinion polls who support


violent extremism, that are still 100,000 British Muslims, a worrying


figure. Muslims tend to live somewhat more segregated than other


minorities. Is that fair? It is worth challenging one of those


points, 3% of Muslims sympathise with terrorism, the previous ICN


poll showed that 4% of the general population sympathise with


terrorism. Lots of opinion polls said 7% or 8% of the Muslim


community. The point is, the way we ask the question presents a certain


answer and a 4% of the population have sympathy with terrorism, that


would be hundreds of thousands of people so let us move away from the


idea that Muslims sympathise with terrorism. A very small number. This


is not scaremongering. How can we prevent these kids, most of them are


kids were young men, getting diverted on their life track into


this new identity, this disaffected identity that seems to be attractive


to them. This is a problem for liberal societies, to provide


attractive national identities for all of our kids. All of our kids


should belong to Britain and feel that Britain belongs to them and it


seems to be quite difficult in our kind of society to provide those


identities. You said that young people, Khalid Masood was 52? A


disproportionate number are under 35. We firstly have to distinguish


between the idea of segregation and extremism, the idea that one leads


to another is not a simple process that is clear, people who are


segregated are more like to be extremists. I don't think there is


evidence. I would agree, extremists come from everywhere, all levels of


education, people who have been to Cambridge. Segregation is not the


problem? It is a problem in itself and it is a separate problem, it may


have some relation to extremism in some cases but the fact that Muslims


live more separately from the rest of society than other minorities is


an issue that we should continue to talk about and do something about.


Birmingham is a very segregated city but it goes back several decades


when many of the white people moved to North fields and different


minorities became concentrated in particular areas and we can learn


from the mistakes of the past and allowing that to happen, to lean


against those clustering tendencies. It is worth noting that Muslims have


become less segregated in the last ten years and many reports sure


we're doing a lot of positive things. We sometimes do not


celebrate our diversity. If you look that great role models, the Mayor of


London, Nadiya Hussain. Is that the way to improve the situation? To


make sure that perhaps if you are a strong faith, you are not seen as


someone outside the group willing to integrate? And make it clear that


young Muslims have very good opportunities in this country, many


Muslims are concentrated in the bottom part of the income spectrum


but lots of Muslims are not and even some of the Muslim groups like


Bangladeshis who have historically not done so well educationally or in


the economy and they are starting to do a lot better. As many Bangladeshi


youths go to Russell group universities as white British kids


and that is quite an achievement. What is to be done when we look at


Birmingham and say there is a problem and we can see sources of


extremism and councillors admit there is a problem. What is the


solution? We need to identify exactly what the problem is and do


different things, in Birmingham we have Sparkbrook or different cases


where there are significant numbers of arrests of people who have been


accused of terrorism but if you remove one of those rates, resulting


in 14 people arrested, the percentage is similar to the rest of


the country so we have to be careful but -- careful about looking at


figures and when it comes to Birmingham, the people on the


ground, the grassroots community, they are the people we need to look


at to search for the right brain. There is very little that can be


done about somebody with a knife who comes into Parliament. -- the right


way. The opinion poll a few months ago showed that most Muslims have


the same political worries as the rest of the population, there is not


a huge gap but we have quite large parts of the Muslim leadership in


this country who do paint a very negative picture of the country,


particularly those from an Islamist background, and we want the Muslim


leadership to be more positive about Britain in some ways and help


provide those images and ideas. Great to talk to both of you. Thank


you very much for your time. That's all we have time for. Have a lovely


In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis.

The latest on the Westminster attacker, Donald Trump's healthcare bill fails, and what Brexit promises did the government make behind the scenes to Nissan?

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