With Emily Maitlis. The latest on the Westminster attacker, Donald Trump's healthcare bill fails, and what Brexit promises did the government make behind the scenes to Nissan?
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What do we now know about what drove Khalid Masood to become the man
who murdered four people and injured 50 others in Westminster
Does he fit the profile of such an extreme and violent attacker?
What is so extraordinary about Khalid Masood? Known as Adrian elms
where he grew up in Tunbridge Wells, in the garden of England.
Westminster under attack - Who, what or where should be held
Also tonight - Did the Government give sweeteners to Nissan to stay
We came really close today, but we came up short.
A big setback for Donald Trump as his health care bill
crashes in Congress - killed by his own party.
I think we'll end up with a truly great health
care bill in the future, after this mess known
Today police issued an appeal for information
to anyone who can shed light on whether the Westminster attacker,
Khalid Masood, acted alone or was directed by others.
Police made two more "significant" arrests,
taking the total to 11 - six of whom were released tonight
Three vehicles were seized by police after an armed raid
Masood, who had used a number of aliases,
was believed to have been living in the West Midlands
He had previously spent time in West Sussex, East Sussex,
London and went to school in Tunbridge Wells, Kent.
John Sweeney has been looking more into the man responsible
for the deaths of four people and injuring 50 others.
Khalid Masood grew up in the garden of England. This is the story of a
Home Counties boy, who went on to strike terror in the heart of
London. Masood was born Adrian Elms on Christmas Day, 1964. His birth
was registered in Dartford, Kent. But he grew up in Tunbridge Wells,
where he most often used the surname Ajao, that of his mother's new
husband. He went to a secondary modern school
in Tunbridge Wells, where he was known as Adrian Ajao, a mixed race
people in a primarily white school. He was always laughing, always
joking. He was good at sport and played rugby well. Just an
unassuming guy. At some point after finishing school, Adrian moved to
this village in Sussex. Convicted for criminal damage at the age of
18, he stood out. I was under the impression that he was a black man
in a white man's pub, you know? And he was going to fight for it. I
said, look. I don't care if you are black or white. I am quite happy to
have a drink with you. If you want to buy new one now, I'm happy to
take it! -- by new one. I cannot even remember if he bought me one or
not, he shook my hand. Was he funny and intelligent? Yes. But some
people in the village saw a nasty side to Adrian. In 2000, Adrian
Elms, that was his name before he changed it to Masood, got into a
fight with another local. In the village boozer.
The fight turned nasty, the local paper reported there were racial
overtones and the other man ended up with a slash on the side of his face
needing 20 stitches. Adrian Elms was sent to prison. When you heard the
news about the attack in Westminster, what was your reaction?
Well, it was put over that it was a terrorist attack. But, having known
him and what I found out tonight, he was just a crazy man. Mind you, I
don't know how you could recognise him since, but he was not a
terrorist here. A drink? He was, yes. From here, to prison to
Eastbourne, and there, the first suggestion of an interest in is land
-- drinker. A friend at the time has told the BBC that he was using
cocaine at the time and also reading the Koran. In 2003 there was a fight
outside of this nursing home and in December he was found guilty of
possessing a knife. His last conviction aged just shy of 40. He
was still Adrian Elms. In November 2005, he first travelled
to Saudi Arabia, and used the name Khalid Masood. In all committee
spent two years there, teaching English. He toured here, at the
Saudi Civil Aviation Authority, in Jenner.
-- he taught here. In 2010, Khalid Masood was back in Blighty, in
Luton, we believe, teaching English. He had two children at the time he
was here, they appeared to be primary school children. He had a
people carrier and would load his children into a people carrier with
child seats. He was a portly gentleman, and frequently wearing
tracksuit bottoms. And also would be wearing slip on moccasins, quite
relaxed attire, I would say. Always gardening. By last year, he popped
up in London's East End. There had been searches there two.
He moved to Birmingham, most recently it seems in Ladywood.
Before that, Winson Green. He would help me to jump-start my car. He was
nice, a nice family. He would drop his kids at school. Normal stuff.
You would never think anything dodgy, of all of their neighbours on
the road. Last week, Khalid Masood returned south to the part of the
country where Adrian Elms had grown up. He stayed here, in this room. He
was joking, smiling and friendly. He was a very friendly person when he
came in. Actually, the receptionist said that he was a lovely guest, she
liked him. She put comments in the system. But he was a nice guest.
Then, the nice guest got into his car and drove to Westminster Bridge.
Khalid Masood spent time in three separate prisons
There has been a well-documented problem of Islamist radicalisation
Last year, Ian Acheson wrote a report for the Government
Thank you for joining me this evening. There is a lot we don't
know about Khalid Masood. That is very clear but we do know that he
spent time in Lewes prison, where you spent a short time as a governor
there. And a couple of other prisons, Weiland and Ford, which you
visited. Can you give me an idea that when you visited them, how or
where you would have been of the problem of radicalisation there?
Firstly, it's important to emphasise that we have no idea at this point
in time whether his periods of time in custody were relevant at all to
what he became, which was a murderous terrorist. Or, whether
they had significance. We need to be careful indeed about speculation. I
spent time working in the three prisoners he has been in during his
time in custody. They are very different, Lewes
prison is a Victorian prison, a multifunctional prison with
different sentences, local to the community. Wayland prison is a rural
prison setting a large area, it is category C and medium security,
which is set over a wide area. Ford is a prison which prisoners coming
to the end of their sentences, sometimes long sentences, will be in
and tested to see if they will survive in open conditions. There
might be an obvious answer, where you are more likely to be
radicalised, or will there be an experience of being exposed to
groups that would be potentially wanting to radicalise you?
Certainly, we drew attention in the report that I did for Michael Gove
to the fact that while the problem was well understood and contained in
the high security prison where the majority of prisoners serving
Stenton says for terror offences were kept, we were not at all clear
in the category C prisons and open prisons in the country, there was
the same level of competence, awareness or intervention to be able
to know what the extent of the problem was in those prisons --
sentences. Or be able to intervene and address that behaviour. If that
is the case, how easy is it to identify a prisoner who could be
influenced by someone wanting to radicalise the new person in the
prison? The ingredients for radicalisation, which we concluded
from our report is a real, present and growing danger in this country,
it is very simple. You need a person with charisma who can
psychologically control and profit eyes hateful ideology.
You need a vulnerable and often highly violent young man, in search
of meaning and in prison for a long period of time, who have committed
serious crimes, and you need a narrative of grievance. Where you
have those three conditions, you will have, in prisons, the ideal
environment for growing this phenomenon. So, you have highlighted
young, in prison for a long time, sentenced for a long time, it almost
contradicts Khalid Masood's history? And if you were to look at Khalid
Masood and look at his past, what similarities could you draw, if any,
of those who have been radicalised? The problem is, the routes into and
out of radicalised behaviour and terrorist intent is extremely
complex. There's been a lot of work and research done by the Henry
Jackson Society, into the biographies of prisoners convicted
of terror offences, and it is difficult to discern a common to
dominate or pattern. It is exceptionally difficult,
especially with the lone actor terrorists as well, and there is
speculation that this man acted alone, but we are not clear yet. The
police are actively investigating what support or help or inspiration
he may have had. They are particularly difficult to identify.
Coming back into prisons, the word I hear from you is "Difficult". The
conclusion I have drawn, correct me if I am wrong, but it is impossible
to eradicate radicalisation in prisons at this time?
There is a huge amount of work in prisons to be done to make them
places where extreme as is driven out, I made a number of
recommendations, I am pleased to say that the government have accepted
those, in order to deal with the problem. They include separating the
most psychologically dangerous extremists from their audiences.
There is intelligence suggesting there are a small number of people
who need separating from people vulnerable to the head for messages,
that's one way we can directly interfere with the process of
radicalisation, it is an urgent issue and I know the government are
tackling it. There are issues about the quality of chaplaincy, the
Islamist chaplaincy in prisons, they need addressing, and a fundamental
issue about support and training for staff, who told us in great numbers
that they were fearful of intervening and promoting British
values in prisons because they simply did not have that
expectation. There are many issues, thank you
very much for joining us. The President who prides himself
in being able to drive a hard bargain and always get the deal done
has suffered a major setback this evening,
despite his determination to repeal and replace Obamacare, his bill has
failed to pass through Congress. President Trump ordered
that the vote was pulled just moments before it was to take place
as support among Republican Our correspondent Laura Bicker
is in Washington. Hello, Laura. What does this mean
for Trump and the Republicans? When it comes to the Republican party,
they look like the party of drama, defeat and disappointment. When it
came down to it, after seven years of promising to repeal and replace
Obamacare, when it came down to the moment of asking, they just could
not do it. They were spared the humiliation of defeat after not
calling the vote, but it does look incredibly embarrassing. It is a
real setback for the Republicans. The right of the party didn't like
the bill, neither did the left. It meant they could not find some
consensus and serious questions will be asked about their governing
abilities going forward. Will they be able to make real decisions? Real
policy decisions. Paul Ryan, House Speaker, dismissed
it as a growing pains of his government, but he will have to go
away and lick his wounds, wondering how to move forward.
President Trump has sold himself as the ultimate deal-maker and when it
came to it, coming to his first attempt at legislation come he came
up short. Sometimes failure is good? You said
there were Douzable -- disagreements that
-- at both ends of the party, maybe it is good for him to fail this time
around? It is interesting, looking at the states which voted for Donald
Trump, thousands within those states would have lost their current health
care insurance if this had gone through. It's interesting to watch
the popularity of Obamacare, the affordable health care right. During
the campaign, under constant attack by Republicans, Donald Trump, and
the Democrats to properly defend it, the popularity of Obamacare went
really far down. And it meant people thought there were real problems
with it, and there are. Some insurance premiums have skyrocketed
and for others, they have very little choice when it comes to their
health care. But, as the repeal and replace has gone through, as people
have been able to look at it and go, what will I lose?
Suddenly, Obamacare seems more popular and you are right, it might
be better for Donald Trump to have left things as they are.
But the Democrats would be the first to admit that something needs to be
done. There are problems within this bill. They say it needs nurturing,
not neglect. They are calling on their Republican colleagues to come
together to go forward, but for now, Obamacare remains in place. It
certainly does, Laura, thank you. It's good to talk to you.
When Nissan announced that it would continue to build new models
and invest in its car plant in Sunderland after the referendum -
there were cheers, not only from the Japanese car-maker's
employees, but also from British politicians keen to show that the UK
Theresa May declared it "fantastic news".
So what made Nissan so confident that a post-Brexit Britain would be
a productive enough environment to keep manufacturing in?
Chris Cook has been digging around and is here with new information.
This is an intriguing outcome, it was the time and still is and to
find out more, you had to submit a Freedom of Information request? Yes,
and they are supposed to take 20 working days to come back, this one
has taken six months. Also, we received this this evening at ten
past six on evening, which is when you do not want journalists looking
at this carefully. Newsnight does not have the same working hours as
other news outlets! We ask for a lot, correspondence between Nissan
and the government and there is a critical letter between Greg Clark
and Nissan sent from the government to Nissan, the smoking gun which we
did not get. The release is full of reductions and unfortunately that is
one of the things the government has committed to eventually releasing
but not for now. Do we know why not? They say because they have committed
to releasing this in the future, they do not need to release this
right now, there is a future publication schedule, which is a
ridiculous excuse but they are sticking with it. There is a smoking
gun and were not allowed to see it but we will in the future. We have
got stuff today. Among the logistics of setting up meetings and one of
the things this shows is how much effort the government was going to
see Nissan, Greg Clark went to Japan, there were meetings and
conference calls and a meeting between somebody from the business
Department and the chair of Nissan on the fringes of the Paris motor
show but also a letter that gives good detail about what Nissan are
asking for, not what they were talking about in relation to Brexit
and trading negotiations, that is redacted but we have something
interesting about other things. Any company would want a shopping list
in times of uncertainty. This and asked for three things. In
mid-October, three things. They wanted tax incentives for people to
buy electric cars, they wanted the government to put more money into
providing charging points and they wanted a change planning laws and
local authorities would have to put in more charging points. That is
what they ask for in mid-October and by the end of November, the
government had opened a consultation on changing the rules around petrol
stations so that they would have to have more charging points, they got
a tax incentive for ultralow emission vehicles and the extra
money for high-speed charging. I will not save the government
definitely did what Nissan asked but it is very striking that all of the
specific demands not about Brexit that were in the power of the
government to deliver, they ask this in mid-October and had them by the
end of November. Should we make clear that what Nissan was asking
for, people would not think that was unreasonable? There is not a wild
U-turn by the government, it does not show corruption or anything else
but it shows that I think it is there to say that the government was
clearly listening to Nissan and we should point out that last autumn,
Nick Watt was reporting that some of these measures appeared to be just
to appease Nissan so there is good reason to think these things are
connected. We don't know when we will get that letter? Some point in
the future! We will be back talking about that. Thank you.
Let's go back to the aftermath of Wednesday's attack in Westminster.
The last place that Khalid Masood was believed to have been
living was Birmingham - a city that has regularly been
Our correspondent David Grossman has been to the city
where most of the arrests, so far by police in relation
Noon in Birmingham and a pause for thought.
In an itinerant life, Khalid Masood had connections to many places,
but this is where he most recently called home.
Others are now, rightly or wrongly, looking
to for explanations for the murder and destruction he caused.
Every time there is a terrorist outrage it seems all eyes and quite
a few accusing fingers are directed towards Birmingham.
And if so, is enough being done to solve it.
Do you think Birmingham has a problem?
I think there is an issue and that is proven statistically,
to see the number of arrests that have been made, the number of plots
that have been planned shows that there is an issue,
a significant in Birmingham in relation to the rest
People have got to stand up to this and say, look,
You are not treading on people's toes, it is not about sensitivities,
it is about making sure that what is conformed to,
the society that we're part of, and were and young people
particularly are being groomed towards radicalisation,
we have to call that out and call it out properly.
At Birmingham Central Mosque, Friday prayers begin
with an unequivocal condemnation of the London attack.
As evil, the congregation were told, as it was un-Islamic.
However, when you ask the Birmingham MP, Khaled Mahmud,
who needs to do more to challenge the processes that lead
lead to radicalisation, top of his list are the city's
You can only challenge them if you happen to
And then we're quite happy to challenge them them.
Because I think the situation is that these people do these
activities by reading the literature from all these websites.
And all these electronic gadgets are so freely available.
People learn radicalisation from those.
Mosques do not teach them to become radicalised.
But Muhammad Afzal is not just the chairman of the mosque.
He is a long-standing and prominent Labour councillor here.
Birmingham is a city where religion and politics mix.
According to Labour's opponents, the result is an unhealthy
We all know that the way voting works in many communities,
you have the block vote, the clan vote, the postal vote
and we know that they are 1-party states, if you will,
and selections are often made by families and packing
So it is difficult to achieve change through the ballot box and often
it is not in people's interests to really rock the vote.
It leads to disempowerment, it leads to poverty,
it leads to people not being able to participate in society and one
of those consequences is that it allows radicalisation
It is one of two Parliamentary constituencies identified by recent
reports as accounting for three quarters of Birmingham's Islamist
This group of lads blame social media, definitely
What has been going on in London and all these links and everything,
we're the first people to speak up about these things and say,
we don't agree with what is going on and we are deeply sorry
for the people that have been hurt and to their families as well.
Answering the question, I don't think...
In Sparkbrook, I don't think there is radicalisation
but it is easy to say because this area, the majority are Muslim
And it is easy to target this area or certain areas and say,
these areas are radicalised and so on.
We think that this is a tight-knit community
Mohammed Ashfak is the director of KIKIT, an organisation that,
with public money, tries to turn round vulnerable lives.
Radicalisation, they believe, is the same product
We stopped two youngsters from going over to Syria that
had a range of issues, they were addicted to drugs
They actually have their tickets booked, they were going to fly over
and they were being groomed by going online and watching videos of Isis.
It is safeguarding, that is how we approached it
And people who try and radicalise other people, it is a grooming
process, the same way you get with child sexual exploitation.
Just the same way as you get with any other grooming process.
At the Birmingham Bullring there was another vigil today.
Very different from the one outside the Town Hall earlier.
This has been organised by a group called Stand Up To Racism
and the concern here is that the crimes of a few are
The fact that awful things happen does not mean that
And I think the onus should be on how do we come together, how do
But at the same time, how do we do so in a manner that
doesn't give more oxygen to the very people who celebrate
And I would say those people are two kinds.
People like Isis, who want to betray an image that they are
And also the far right groups, who then exploit the tensions that
That is what we should be looking at, taking that
step back and thinking, is this a helpful way to respond?
How do we frame the problem and get to the roots
Although another terrorist attack linked to Birmingham causes
discomfort here, in a sense it makes agreement easier.
Everyone condemns and everyone extends sympathy.
What is far harder to find, though, is a consensus
Let's discuss the root causes of these problems -
I'm joined by David Goodhart, author of the Road to Somewhere
and Miqdaad Versi from the Muslim Council of Britain.
Do you recognise the picture in that report? Integration and
multiculturalism failing in places like that? I do recognise that
picture and I think the terrorist attack in Westminster was from a man
who was alone will, unbalanced, but we clearly have a problem with
Islamic extremism in Britain, 3000 people under constant surveillance
and even if you take the 3% in certain opinion polls who support
violent extremism, that are still 100,000 British Muslims, a worrying
figure. Muslims tend to live somewhat more segregated than other
minorities. Is that fair? It is worth challenging one of those
points, 3% of Muslims sympathise with terrorism, the previous ICN
poll showed that 4% of the general population sympathise with
terrorism. Lots of opinion polls said 7% or 8% of the Muslim
community. The point is, the way we ask the question presents a certain
answer and a 4% of the population have sympathy with terrorism, that
would be hundreds of thousands of people so let us move away from the
idea that Muslims sympathise with terrorism. A very small number. This
is not scaremongering. How can we prevent these kids, most of them are
kids were young men, getting diverted on their life track into
this new identity, this disaffected identity that seems to be attractive
to them. This is a problem for liberal societies, to provide
attractive national identities for all of our kids. All of our kids
should belong to Britain and feel that Britain belongs to them and it
seems to be quite difficult in our kind of society to provide those
identities. You said that young people, Khalid Masood was 52? A
disproportionate number are under 35. We firstly have to distinguish
between the idea of segregation and extremism, the idea that one leads
to another is not a simple process that is clear, people who are
segregated are more like to be extremists. I don't think there is
evidence. I would agree, extremists come from everywhere, all levels of
education, people who have been to Cambridge. Segregation is not the
problem? It is a problem in itself and it is a separate problem, it may
have some relation to extremism in some cases but the fact that Muslims
live more separately from the rest of society than other minorities is
an issue that we should continue to talk about and do something about.
Birmingham is a very segregated city but it goes back several decades
when many of the white people moved to North fields and different
minorities became concentrated in particular areas and we can learn
from the mistakes of the past and allowing that to happen, to lean
against those clustering tendencies. It is worth noting that Muslims have
become less segregated in the last ten years and many reports sure
we're doing a lot of positive things. We sometimes do not
celebrate our diversity. If you look that great role models, the Mayor of
London, Nadiya Hussain. Is that the way to improve the situation? To
make sure that perhaps if you are a strong faith, you are not seen as
someone outside the group willing to integrate? And make it clear that
young Muslims have very good opportunities in this country, many
Muslims are concentrated in the bottom part of the income spectrum
but lots of Muslims are not and even some of the Muslim groups like
Bangladeshis who have historically not done so well educationally or in
the economy and they are starting to do a lot better. As many Bangladeshi
youths go to Russell group universities as white British kids
and that is quite an achievement. What is to be done when we look at
Birmingham and say there is a problem and we can see sources of
extremism and councillors admit there is a problem. What is the
solution? We need to identify exactly what the problem is and do
different things, in Birmingham we have Sparkbrook or different cases
where there are significant numbers of arrests of people who have been
accused of terrorism but if you remove one of those rates, resulting
in 14 people arrested, the percentage is similar to the rest of
the country so we have to be careful but -- careful about looking at
figures and when it comes to Birmingham, the people on the
ground, the grassroots community, they are the people we need to look
at to search for the right brain. There is very little that can be
done about somebody with a knife who comes into Parliament. -- the right
way. The opinion poll a few months ago showed that most Muslims have
the same political worries as the rest of the population, there is not
a huge gap but we have quite large parts of the Muslim leadership in
this country who do paint a very negative picture of the country,
particularly those from an Islamist background, and we want the Muslim
leadership to be more positive about Britain in some ways and help
provide those images and ideas. Great to talk to both of you. Thank
you very much for your time. That's all we have time for. Have a lovely
In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis.
The latest on the Westminster attacker, Donald Trump's healthcare bill fails, and what Brexit promises did the government make behind the scenes to Nissan?