27/03/2017 Newsnight


27/03/2017

The former head of the Diplomatic Service discusses Brexit. Plus the woman who pretended she was black, anti-Putin protests in Russia, and how will farmers cope with Brexit?


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Transcript


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Tonight on Newsnight - the former head of the Diplomatic

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It's certain we won't have resolved everything in the period before

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in the period before the expiry of the Article 50 process.

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48 hours from now Article 50 will be triggered.

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Two years after that, we'll be out of the EU picture.

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I've been told that, on the contrary, Theresa May said

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to Nicola Sturgeon that the whole Brexit negotiation would be done

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Peter was most read fully frightened. He rushed all over the

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garden looking for the Brexit. He ran straight into a messy tangle of

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red tape. Will British farmers thrive

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or die without Brussels As a fell farmer I can't

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survive without subsidy. Are you African-American? I don't

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understand the question. turned out to be white -

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we have the UK television Racism is a lie, so how can you like

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about a lie? Two days before Article 50

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is finally triggered, Newsnight has been given

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an exclusive insight into how the negotiations

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with the EU will be conducted, by the former head of the Diplomatic

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Service. Sir Simon Fraser -

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who had key posts in both the European Commission

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and the Foreign Office has told this programme that EU member countires

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have so far been discplined and prevented from making

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any meaningful pre He also confirmed it would NOT be

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possible to agree all of the issues during the two year negotiation

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period, and he foresaw the distinc possibility of political

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and economic turbulence. We'll hear his interview with our

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Diplomatic Editor Mark Urban in full in a moment -

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but first to our political editor What are you hearing tonight? SNP

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sources said that Theresa May told Nicola Sturgeon that the UK

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Government is confident they can do an overall deal within 18 months. So

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it means the future trading relationship. Number Ten doesn't

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believe the future trading relationship can be done and dusted

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them, it will need what it described as an implementation phase. But it

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shows that the UK is accepting the timetable by the EU, which is a

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Greek it by the autumn of 2018 so it can be fully ratified. But the EU

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chief negotiator is saying, if you want to have that trade deal done at

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the same time, even in that sort of a transitional outline, you have got

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to get over two big hurdles, a greedy exit payment and secondly

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agreed the status of EU nationals. What a word is there on those EU

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payments? David Davis on question Time said the UK will not pay

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anything like the 60 billion euros that is mentioned in Brussels, but

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he did say, that the UK will meet its international obligations. That

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is a big thing the EU has been saying, it means the UK will be

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obliged to abide by its EU budget commitments that have been agreed by

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all member states and the Twenty20, which means a third of the budget.

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But David Davis also cited a recent House of Lords report and it said if

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the UK leaves the EU without a deal, it will not, by law have to pay a

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penny. He regards that as a great car to have in his back pocket.

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Thank you very much. Our diplomatic editor

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Mark Urban has been speaking to Sir Simon Fraser who until 2015

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was the Foreign Office's He began by asking how successful

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European leaders have been in holding the EU's 27 member states

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to the same negotiating position. I think there has been a lot of

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discipline. It came out of the commission first of all.

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I don't think there has been a lot of informal

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behind-the-scenes discussion of

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That will happen once we formally triggered

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How likely is it will get towards the end of that 18 month

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period that the EU has set for reaching the initial

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agreement with things resolved on some key issues?

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I think personally it's certain we won't have resolved everything

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in the period before the expiry of the Article 50 process.

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As we know, the EU side want to start with negotiating

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That's about money, it's about the rights of people living

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It's probably also about the Borders, for example, in Ireland.

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And the British side, on top of that, wants to move

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rapidly to discuss the future relationship with both political

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and economic between Britain and the EU and that is a very

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There's no way, in my view, we are going to complete

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all that in two years, which is why we are going to have

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to think about transitional mechanisms, or what the British side

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calls progressive implementation of new arrangements.

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You've mentioned unity, so will the UK, do you think in that

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period, be trying talk to the Poles or the Czechs, or whoever in order

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to maybe offer them money for infrastructural things that make

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deals with them on a bilateral basis, or try to change their

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Can that work, or will the unity of the 27 remain

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I think they will try to maintain that unity,

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The British will of course talk to the different

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member states in the EU and try to understand their position

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and work on those positions and try to find ways of reaching

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agreement and possibly, you know, catering for the interests

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That's normal, but in the end, the UK has got to negotiate

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with the EU as a whole through the EU's appointed

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negotiator which will be essentially led by the commission.

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And I think it will be a mistake to try and divide and rule

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because I don't think that will work.

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What are the chances of the UK ending up coming towards the end

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of the Article 50 period without agreement in many areas,

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as you've predicted and there being economic turbulence,

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political turbulence, a very difficult end to this process?

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What I don't think is possible to do in that time is go

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through the whole negotiation for the future relationship.

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So there is a risk, nevertheless, that this breaks down or we get

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to an unsatisfactory outcome and there is political ill

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will and turbulence, both political and economic.

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I think it's in the interests of both sides to try to avoid that

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and if we have unfinished business, to find agreement on a mechanism,

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a smooth mechanism for moving forward through transition,

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so that the unfinished stuff can continue to be negotiated thereafter

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so the economic relations and political relationship can continue.

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Two years ago a black human rights activist, Rachel Dolezal,

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was outed as a white woman, born to white parents

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A huge scandal erupted - why had this woman been trying to pass

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She was pilloried by white and black communities simultaneously,

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accused of cultural appropriation by some and of delusional

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She maintains she never meant to hurt anyone,

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she genuinely felt culturally and socially black and changed her

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looks in subtle ways until others assumed she was.

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In her long awaited book, In Full Colour, she rejects

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the concept of race, calling it a political construct and says

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We'll hear the exclusive broadcast interview she gave to me

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This is Rachel Dolezal as a child, pale hair, fair skin, born to deeply

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religious, authoritarian parents in rural Montana.

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In her book, she describes a miserable childhood,

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Once, she explains, she was even forced to eat her own cold vomit.

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When she was an adolescent, her parents began adopting black babies,

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four in all, which she looked after and adored.

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As soon as she could, she headed to college in the deep

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South, lived in a mixed community and began

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to think of herself as black, modifying her

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She worked for civil rights, gaining prestigious posts in

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She had stopped trying to explain her race,

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Then, one day, as local head of the NAACP, America's largest

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giving an interview on their work when she was asked a question out of

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Her life was then to change beyond recognition.

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Treated as a pariah, vilified by both black and

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white communities, she found herself fired from her job, unable to find

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work, raising her children as a single parent on the bread line.

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She felt black and to have said differently would have been to lie

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A confused woman, product of a terrible infancy,

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perhaps, literally desperate to escape her own skin?

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Or the start of a bigger conversation about whether

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people really can self define their own race?

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I caught up with her in her home in Spokane, Washington state.

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In terms of your own story, you write, "As soon as I was able to

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make my exodus from the white world in which I was raised, I made a

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headlong dash towards the black one", so it was a choice for you to

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leave that white world and head to the black world?

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Yeah, I definitely did not feel at home in

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It felt foreign to me, and it felt uncomfortable

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And it also felt oppressive, because I had to constantly mask and

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subordinate and repress parts of myself in order to just, kind of,

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You describe a pretty horrific childhood, one of

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punishment and negligence and very little love?

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Oftentimes, when I was being punished, I was left wondering what

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I had really done to deserve that punishment because I felt like I had

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just been being myself, you know, I had just been creative or

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spontaneous or just dancing for doing something that I hadn't

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spontaneous or just dancing or doing something that I hadn't

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potentially been doing something wrong or evil or terrible.

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It was just that I had stepped out of line.

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I hadn't, you know, done what a girl should do.

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And somehow, been immodest or sensual

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And I had to be punished for that because I was

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being raised to believe that the only goal for me in life

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was to get married and bear children and be a

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And as soon as you were able, you looked for a

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college, that headlong dash towards the black world?

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Was it then that your appearance started to change?

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Did you become more aware of wanting to become more black physically?

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Well, when I was in college, I was constantly comes you know,

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Well, when I was in college, I was constantly, you know,

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kind of trying to explain and defend who I was because a lot of people

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saw me as either mixed or albino or white skinned black.

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Whether or not I had braids, like, regardless of my

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hairstyle, because I was in a black student union

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and social justice which was not typical for white southerners to do.

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So I was kind of glaringly not fitting the mould

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And if somebody saw me and assumed I was black or mixed or

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white skinned, it was more comfortable because it was a box

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When you started ticking the box that said

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black eventually, did you feel uncomfortable,

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No, I mean, it didn't feel like a lie,

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A true representation of who I am and what I stand for, because

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even though race is a social construct, and in America, there is

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a very clear colour line, there is a clear divide

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and you have to take a side, I mean, I stand on the black

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side of issues, philosophically, politically, socially, and for me to

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not check the box, I felt like would be some sort of a betrayal.

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Of not only of who I am but the community I

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A lot of people might say, "I sympathise with

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everything the black movement stand for.

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In that case, people would be agreeing with

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The idea of race is a lie so how can you lie about a lie?

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The criticism that claim was that you were trying

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to culturally appropriate a black experience that you could not have

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had because you never lived through it.

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What is your response to that criticism?

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I understand that, given what was presented, I understand how

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people can come up with those conclusions.

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But I do feel like just because I didn't have a lived

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experience, being seen by other people as a black girl, a black

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young woman, for years of my life, I was seen as a white woman, as a

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white girl, that doesn't mean that I didn't have any experiences.

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I couldn't self define as Chinese just

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because I had a passion for Chinese culture.

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Well, I think to some extent, that's right because we

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don't have a choice in how we are born and who we are.

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And so, to embrace and fully open who we really

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are, I think is something that we encourage

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from children's movies, to the most inspirational books,

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I think that we tell everybody, "Be who you are, be proud

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be proud of who you are", and this is truly who I am.

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But do you think you had a choice? Did you have a choice to be black?

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I was born as who I am and that includes how I feel and also what I

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And so I don't think I have a choice in that.

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You have drawn parallels with the transgender

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community, that you should be able to self define racially, in the way

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that many trans people self define agenda.

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that many trans people self define their gender.

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Many other people have drawn those parallels, too.

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I kind of have seen it as somewhat useful, just because

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gender is understood, we have progressed, we have evolved

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into understanding that gender is not

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So you believe in the concept of transracial?

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Well, I believe that the word transracial has become

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socially useful in describing racial fluidity in identity.

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Do you think, though, that the world will come

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Or do you think you will always be viewed

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as the pariah, the white woman who wanted to be black?

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I don't think that is for me to hope for or predict.

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I really don't know where we are headed.

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Describe for us now what life is like, day-to-day?

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You can't get a job. You don't have money.

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Was that all as a result of this? Yeah, definitely.

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It was as a result of me being discredited,

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basically, called a liar and a fraud and a con and people

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not trusting my work, not

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just my identity but everything that I did, including my resume

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Where was the worst criticism for you?

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I would say that the biggest attack was from, of course,

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the parents and the white media and the white police, the white

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establishment at large really dealt the biggest blow, but the criticism

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that hurt the worst was from the black community

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because I still feel like that is home, for me.

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And even if I had been evicted, pushed to the fringe,

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some people don't see me as part of that group, it is still

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where I feel like I fit and where I feel at home.

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So that hurts, it is painful because I feel like there is

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misunderstanding that I want to resolve.

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If I could resolve one group's misunderstanding, it would

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Rachel Dolezal, thank you. Thank you.

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With me in the studio is Guilaine Kinouani

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who is an equality consultant and writer, and Boyce Watkins,

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You listen to that interview, what did you make of her? Firstly, just

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to say it is the first time I have seen this interview, so lots of

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emotions, feelings and questions. But perhaps the first thing to

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establish is that what is called trans-racialism by Rachel Dunn zeal

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encompasses three different groups, black women, trans women, and people

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who find themselves at the intersection of the two, so I am

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going to speak to it mainly as a black woman. There are various

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problems with Rachel Dolezal's position. Comparing transgender

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rhythm with transracial is -- transgender with transracial is a

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fallacy, a force equivalency, which in my mind, does not advance our

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understanding of race, of transgender issues, nor of black

:20:24.:20:30.

womanhood. Stepping back for one moment from the transgender

:20:31.:20:35.

relationship that she made with her own position, can you sympathise or

:20:36.:20:39.

empathise with a woman who says she feels she has more in common, she

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feels she is closer to being black than white? I can absolutely

:20:45.:20:51.

empathise with her experience, particularly when it seems apparent

:20:52.:20:54.

that she comes from a background of abuse and neglect and perhaps she

:20:55.:20:59.

has come to associate whiteness with what might have happened in her

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past, so I can empathise with that. However, where I remain sceptical is

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in her inability to recognise and a knowledge her privilege as a white

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woman being able to occupy or inhabit the lived experience of

:21:17.:21:19.

black women. But even though, as you have just said, she did not have a

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life of privilege, she was, you know, as she describes, abused,

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punished and brought up in an authoritarian place, ostracised from

:21:28.:21:33.

a white community, for wanting to be black as much as from a black

:21:34.:21:36.

community who discovered she was white so why do you attach the idea

:21:37.:21:41.

of privilege to her background? I attach the idea of privilege to have

:21:42.:21:45.

a background for one main reason. The main reason is that she has

:21:46.:21:51.

white skin. So while it is physical for her to don a little tan and

:21:52.:21:57.

where some braids and pass as black, the reality is that for the

:21:58.:21:59.

overwhelming majority of black people, we cannot occupy the lived

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experience of white people. So the question to me I guess would be,

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would a dark skinned Pakistani woman wearing a hijab claiming whiteness,

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would that be a choice that society would accept? And I think a lot of

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people share that perspective but when you say pass as, obviously you

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describe it as if it is something she is trying to sort of pull the

:22:27.:22:30.

wool over people's eyes. What she said in the interview and to me was

:22:31.:22:33.

that she does not really believe in the idea of race. She thinks it is a

:22:34.:22:40.

political construct... It is. Race was always set up to be a hierarchy

:22:41.:22:48.

of power. Perhaps if you look at it from that perspective, then she is

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right, isn't she? Who is to say that race has to be binary? I think this

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is an interesting question and my position on this is that talking

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about racism and talking about white supremacy, we need to look at what

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has been done and reproduced over centuries. So we are talking about

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white woman who seems to be quite oblivious to the fact that black

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women's experience and bodies and creation has been appropriated, has

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been... Even though she worked in black actors, even though she made

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it her lives and works? Absolutely because there is a hierarchy of

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blackness, so for example, her claiming blackness would shift

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people's understanding, firstly of what it means to be black and

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because of the privilege that she has been a white woman, what we

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would have is that she would have the power of defining what blackness

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is. We are coming to the end but let me ask you, she has been made a

:23:47.:23:51.

pariah, ostracised, unable to get a job. Do you think she has become

:23:52.:23:57.

something of a target? There are many people that you good a more

:23:58.:24:01.

anger at than a woman who, as you say, and quite a traumatic childhood

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and found herself, perhaps, on the wrong side of a confused argument.

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Does she really deserved to be treated in quite such a, sort of,

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vilified terms as she is today? I'm not sure whether I would agree with

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the premise that she has been vilified. Certainly, she has been

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called to account. What I would say is that she has also had a book

:24:26.:24:30.

deal, so therefore, she has got some material gain from her experience.

:24:31.:24:37.

From that perspective, I'm not sure whether it is fair to say she is a

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pariah. She is someone who has had a book deal and has made a loss of

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money out of her experience. Thank you for joining us.

:24:45.:24:46.

The Russian government has rejected calls by the European Union

:24:47.:24:49.

and the United States to release hundreds of people who have been

:24:50.:24:52.

detained following Sunday's anti-government protests.

:24:53.:24:58.

The nationwide demonstrations were the biggest show of defiance

:24:59.:25:00.

since anti-government protests five years ago.

:25:01.:25:02.

The man who represents Russia's most vocal opposition to Putin's

:25:03.:25:06.

government is Alexei Navalny, and today he was jailed for 15 days

:25:07.:25:10.

for resisting police orders, a punishment that will come

:25:11.:25:14.

as little surprise to a man who has endured a year of house arrests

:25:15.:25:17.

Joining me now, Edward Lucas, author of The New Cold War: Putin's Russia

:25:18.:25:23.

Thank you for joining us. How important do these protests,

:25:24.:25:35.

firstly, look to you? Is this a significant moment, a turning point?

:25:36.:25:41.

I think they are commendable. I think Alexei Navalny and his young

:25:42.:25:44.

supporters, many of whom have known no other Russian leader than

:25:45.:25:47.

Vladimir Putin, deserve whatever support we can give them but I have

:25:48.:25:52.

to say, I don't think at the moment they have the momentum that would be

:25:53.:25:57.

needed to split the regime or topple it. Because of him? Does he seem to

:25:58.:26:01.

you the right revolutionary figure, if such a one exists? I've met in a

:26:02.:26:05.

couple of times and he's a very oppressive and forceful character. I

:26:06.:26:08.

think he is not a great unifier although he has a strong fan base

:26:09.:26:12.

but there are other people in the Russian opposition, particularly the

:26:13.:26:16.

liberal wing, who worry that he is too nationalist. They also worry

:26:17.:26:19.

that maybe he has got some connections somewhere with the

:26:20.:26:22.

regime that he has been tolerated, to some extent, allowed to get away

:26:23.:26:26.

with things where other people have been closed down and yet now he is

:26:27.:26:30.

being closed down and he himself is imprisoned. I think there's a chance

:26:31.:26:34.

that this escalate and ripples across Russia and turns into

:26:35.:26:37.

something really big but we saw this movie five years ago with much

:26:38.:26:41.

bigger protests in Moscow and the regime could squash those, and I

:26:42.:26:44.

think they probably can do the same this time around. But he's been very

:26:45.:26:49.

clever at redirecting this away from Putin personally and making it all

:26:50.:26:53.

about corruption, bringing out the stamps on the notes and stuff, to

:26:54.:26:57.

really sell a message that can have traction with the masses? Yes, and I

:26:58.:27:04.

think that corruption is the regime's Achilles heel. If you go on

:27:05.:27:07.

about democracy and human rights and freedom and so on, many Russians

:27:08.:27:11.

look back to the 1990s and think, "We tied it at -- tried it and it

:27:12.:27:16.

did not work", where is this gross corruption which involves hundreds

:27:17.:27:18.

of thousands of acres of ground gunner ski slopes and duck ponds and

:27:19.:27:23.

things, that really grates... It is always the duck pond that tips the

:27:24.:27:28.

balance. Yes, steer clear of the docks, rulers but it is a good point

:27:29.:27:32.

and by going for Medvedev, who is pretty unpopular, it is a good

:27:33.:27:36.

tactical move and it is not impossible that Mr Putin would throw

:27:37.:27:39.

his hapless Prime Minister overboard sometime this year. Said he is no

:27:40.:27:44.

use any more, is that the sense you get? Medvedev was quite useful for

:27:45.:27:48.

Putin of years ago when he wanted to step down as president briefly and

:27:49.:27:55.

Medvedev, his sidekick, kept his seat in the Kremlin warm but he does

:27:56.:27:58.

not really like Mr Medvedev and I think he would not feel any

:27:59.:28:01.

compunction in serving him overboard and possibly saying he was shocked

:28:02.:28:06.

to find there had been corruption going on and that would blunt the

:28:07.:28:10.

edge of public anger, if these protests continue, or it may just

:28:11.:28:15.

fizzle out. You can see the West squirming at these reactions now,

:28:16.:28:21.

the protests, how far to get involved, what they can say, do they

:28:22.:28:26.

show support? The West does not really have any power at all here,

:28:27.:28:31.

does it? I think the West is one of the guilty parties here and this is

:28:32.:28:34.

one of the things Alexei Navalny said to him when I asked if he was

:28:35.:28:37.

Andy West, and he said of course because it is in the west that the

:28:38.:28:40.

regime launders the money it has stolen from the Russian people. I

:28:41.:28:45.

think the Scottish paper today has a splash on the front page saying that

:28:46.:28:50.

Scottish banks laundered ?4 billion of dirty Russian money. So we do

:28:51.:28:55.

sanctions but on the other hand...? We do sanctions which is good and I

:28:56.:28:59.

wish we did more but until we crack down on the bankers and lawyers and

:29:00.:29:03.

accountants who laundered tens of billions of dollars and cover-up the

:29:04.:29:06.

beneficial ownership of companies and so on, they won't take us

:29:07.:29:09.

seriously. There is a bill going through Parliament right now which

:29:10.:29:13.

would give the government the ability to freeze the assets of

:29:14.:29:18.

human rights abuses, so that is a glimmer of hope but we need to do a

:29:19.:29:21.

great deal more. Thank you for joining us.

:29:22.:29:24.

One of the most contentious issues around our membership of the EU

:29:25.:29:27.

over the years has been the Common Agricultural Policy,

:29:28.:29:29.

the subsidy payments given to farmers across Europe.

:29:30.:29:31.

The British farming industry has a lot to lose with Brexit,

:29:32.:29:33.

and farmers who depend on subsidies to survive will be relying

:29:34.:29:36.

on the UK Government to help with the transition.

:29:37.:29:38.

Our business editor, Naga Munchetty, and film-maker Stuart Denman,

:29:39.:29:40.

To tell their story, they sought help from a familiar face.

:29:41.:29:50.

Once upon a time, there were four little rabbits.

:29:51.:29:59.

"Now, my dears", said old Mrs Rabbit one morning, "Don't go

:30:00.:30:01.

He was put in a pie by Mrs MacGregor".

:30:02.:30:19.

The words of Beatrix Potter, author of The Tale Of Peter Rabbit and many

:30:20.:30:23.

In fact, it was her great success as an author which helped

:30:24.:30:28.

By the time she died in 1943, she had 4000 acres, including 14

:30:29.:30:33.

farms, and her home here, Hilltop, all of which she left

:30:34.:30:37.

As a prominent farmer, we can only wonder what Potter

:30:38.:30:44.

or maybe even her characters would have made of the EU,

:30:45.:30:47.

Brexit and of course, the next, unwritten chapter

:30:48.:30:50.

Whom should Peter meet but Mr MacGregor?

:30:51.:30:56.

Peter was most dreadfully frightened.

:30:57.:30:58.

He rushed all over the garden looking for the Brexit.

:30:59.:31:01.

He ran straight into a messy tangle of red tape.

:31:02.:31:10.

Beatrix Potter's farms can be found in the Lake District,

:31:11.:31:17.

where resilience and innovation are as important as ever.

:31:18.:31:19.

There are farmers in Scotland, in Wales, here in the Lake District,

:31:20.:31:22.

John Watson is a tenant farmer at Yew Tree Farm,

:31:23.:31:27.

He uses this to attract tourism to supplement his income.

:31:28.:31:32.

Life is very uncertain at the moment.

:31:33.:31:48.

What's happening with Brexit is going to have a huge,

:31:49.:31:50.

I struggle, year in, year out, trying all different

:31:51.:31:58.

forms of diversification, to try and bring money

:31:59.:32:02.

in because I'm one of these idiots that actually loves farming.

:32:03.:32:05.

I love being out in this beautiful countryside.

:32:06.:32:10.

As a fell farmer, I cannot survive without subsidy.

:32:11.:32:12.

The Common Agricultural Policy was designed to boost productivity.

:32:13.:32:18.

Controversially, the subsidies are based on how much land is owned,

:32:19.:32:21.

UK farmers received 3.1 billion euros last year.

:32:22.:32:30.

Pickles ran the village shop and gave subsidies

:32:31.:32:32.

While some people really liked Pickles' payments,

:32:33.:32:37.

others got fed up with being told what to do and won't be dipping

:32:38.:32:41.

So far, the UK Government has pledged to replace

:32:42.:32:50.

Now, at the grassroots, including here in Exmoor,

:32:51.:32:56.

farmers must consider carefully how to survive in a dramatically

:32:57.:32:59.

It is being called the biggest farming conversation

:33:00.:33:12.

Before the EU referendum, the industry was largely divided

:33:13.:33:17.

but now it is united in looking for opportunities in

:33:18.:33:19.

One question for the farmers who did vote Out is what is more

:33:20.:33:25.

Nothing in this life is free and as we were discovering with EU

:33:26.:33:47.

payments, they were asking for more and more for their free money.

:33:48.:33:53.

The Miltons voted to leave the EU, with the young especially keen,

:33:54.:33:57.

a different story perhaps to the national narrative,

:33:58.:34:00.

which suggested that many younger Remainers were at odds

:34:01.:34:03.

I listened to some of the next generation and they were saying,

:34:04.:34:09.

And the only time opportunities arrive is when you have change.

:34:10.:34:15.

The way I looked at Brexit was, what's the worst that could happen?

:34:16.:34:18.

We would have to sell the farm because we couldn't make it pay.

:34:19.:34:21.

But if you've got the right attitude, you will do

:34:22.:34:23.

I don't think they are going to like me for this.

:34:24.:34:29.

I don't want to kick older farmers out but I think there's a lot

:34:30.:34:32.

The cap has kept them in a farm, when they probably should have let

:34:33.:34:47.

The Miltons all feel the burden of red tape,

:34:48.:34:51.

They hope that after Brexit, it will be better tailored

:34:52.:34:54.

Is the government doing enough to support you?

:34:55.:34:57.

No, there's a feeling not at the moment and I feel

:34:58.:35:00.

the government has lost the focus on what the value of agriculture

:35:01.:35:03.

In 1984, New Zealand's farming industry was transformed

:35:04.:35:06.

when its government scrapped most subsidies.

:35:07.:35:07.

Diversification and intensification were embraced

:35:08.:35:08.

But there's also been criticism as many environmental

:35:09.:35:13.

In the UK, farmers are responsible for environmental upkeep.

:35:14.:35:22.

Upland and fell farmers look after hedgerows,

:35:23.:35:25.

It is an expensive occupation to maintain hedges.

:35:26.:35:34.

A cheaper alternative would be a wire fence.

:35:35.:35:37.

No aesthetic value, no environmental value,

:35:38.:35:40.

but like in New Zealand, practical, does the job,

:35:41.:35:43.

And those responsibilities are for the benefit

:35:44.:35:48.

So there's an expectation, if we are going to help you,

:35:49.:35:53.

I'd like to think we could do without any subsidy all.

:35:54.:35:57.

But that's, that's utter madness, really, if you want us to preserve

:35:58.:36:00.

You can't destroy Exmoor because, as farmers,

:36:01.:36:05.

But some environmental campaigners say that farmers are not doing

:36:06.:36:10.

enough to justify the financial support they are asking for.

:36:11.:36:15.

We see very, very low productivity, one sheep per hectare,

:36:16.:36:17.

one sheep per two hectares, one sheep per five hectares, almost

:36:18.:36:20.

nothing being produced and yet, almost no wildlife either

:36:21.:36:26.

because sheep are a fully automated system for maximum

:36:27.:36:30.

Let them loose in the hills and they nibble everything away.

:36:31.:36:35.

I'm not talking about taking away all sheep.

:36:36.:36:42.

I am just saying, let's stop paying for this damage.

:36:43.:36:46.

In the middle of a lake, there was an island.

:36:47.:36:50.

Twinkleberry and his squirrel friends visited the island,

:36:51.:36:54.

"Will You favour us with work, gathering your apples and cabbages?

:36:55.:36:58.

James Hook's Hatcheries produce a third of the

:36:59.:37:06.

He voted Remain but he does not rely on subsidies.

:37:07.:37:12.

Chicken and pig farmers don't get them.

:37:13.:37:14.

We employ 2500 people across the country in

:37:15.:37:19.

About 20% of those are coming from Europe, quite a lot

:37:20.:37:23.

of Eastern European people and that has made a massive difference to our

:37:24.:37:26.

I'm concerned that because of the devaluation of the pound,

:37:27.:37:31.

that the money is now is not as good as it was.

:37:32.:37:34.

And more importantly at all, will they be allowed to come in?

:37:35.:37:48.

James has already closed two facilities because of a shortage

:37:49.:37:50.

Will we have the labour to work on our farms?

:37:51.:37:55.

Will our customers have the labour to work in factories?

:37:56.:37:57.

Will we have the labour to help come and pluck the turkeys at Christmas?

:37:58.:38:00.

Because if we haven't got it, we can't continue.

:38:01.:38:03.

Tommy Brock was a short, bristly, fat, waddling badger.

:38:04.:38:05.

Today, he was complaining bitterly about the scarcity of bananas

:38:06.:38:07.

"I am quite sick of straight bananas!"

:38:08.:38:13.

Membership of the EU spawned many a myth.

:38:14.:38:16.

Now it is time to face the realities of leaving.

:38:17.:38:20.

Ensuring food security is a priority.

:38:21.:38:25.

Can enough be produced by UK farmers to feed the country affordably?

:38:26.:38:28.

Peter Kendall is an arable farmer who owns 2000 acres in Bedfordshire

:38:29.:38:31.

He voted to Remain and is now concerned

:38:32.:38:36.

There's a real nervousness that too many, I think,

:38:37.:38:44.

quite prominent politicians now, are advocating cheap food.

:38:45.:38:46.

If they think they are going to scavenge the world

:38:47.:38:51.

for the cheapest possible beef, lamb, grains, dairy products,

:38:52.:38:56.

I think you could see the British countryside massively changed.

:38:57.:39:00.

The environment would be damaged and we would

:39:01.:39:03.

Article 50 will be triggered within days.

:39:04.:39:11.

Farming, like other industries, will need to toil hard to be heard

:39:12.:39:17.

during the government's negotiations.

:39:18.:39:22.

Peter Rabbit has been brought into the 21st-century

:39:23.:39:25.

and there's a desire for a new, shinier version of

:39:26.:39:27.

Whether farmers voted for Brexit or not, leaving could offer

:39:28.:39:33.

the industry the opportunity to make positive changes.

:39:34.:39:39.

We need to move to a world where we are seen to be

:39:40.:39:44.

entrepreneurial businessmen producing for the market,

:39:45.:39:48.

but we do have that reputation of being paid to do nothing.

:39:49.:39:51.

We've actually got a really short period to come up with a domestic

:39:52.:39:54.

policy that understands what farming in the UK is all about.

:39:55.:39:58.

They won't be throwing money at farmers any more.

:39:59.:40:02.

I do love the old-fashioned ways of farming.

:40:03.:40:04.

And that, dear viewers, looks like the end of our tale.

:40:05.:40:14.

Naga Munchetty reporting, with a little help

:40:15.:40:33.

Just before we go, we thought we would show you the Daily Mail front

:40:34.:40:55.

page. That's it for the night, the winners of the world's biggest

:40:56.:40:59.

photography awards are announced tomorrow.

:41:00.:41:02.

Unless you're a Newsnight viewer, in which case you can see them now.

:41:03.:41:06.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis as the former head of the Diplomatic Service discusses Brexit. Plus the woman who pretended she was black, anti-Putin protests in Russia, and how will farmers cope with Brexit?


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