24/04/2017 Newsnight


24/04/2017

The aftermath of the French election, Peter Mandelson on Macron and Corbyn and Facebook's Sheryl Sandberg on coping with grief.


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Transcript


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Populist nationalism and global liberalism are to fight

:00:00.:00:10.

On the one side, Emmanuel Macron - who sells himself as a radical

:00:11.:00:20.

outsider, but who aims to reform and preserve the existing order.

:00:21.:00:25.

the real anti-establishment outsider.

:00:26.:00:29.

But she came in second, and is starting from behind.

:00:30.:00:35.

We ask this Front National campaign official whether the party

:00:36.:00:37.

is capable of broadening its appeal to keep Macron out?

:00:38.:00:41.

Labour is about to launch its Brexit strategy,

:00:42.:00:48.

but the architect of the last Labour victory is in the dark.

:00:49.:00:55.

What is the liberal position on Brexit now. Well, search me.

:00:56.:01:00.

And in an exclusive interview Facebook's Sheryl Sandberg talks

:01:01.:01:02.

to us about how she came to terms with her husband's sudden death.

:01:03.:01:09.

There are so many bad moments, there is no one worst moment.

:01:10.:01:14.

But in all of it, was this feeling that it would never get better

:01:15.:01:18.

And after an election campaign of twists and turns,

:01:19.:01:38.

the big surprise was the lack of big surprise.

:01:39.:01:41.

But it is a huge turning point all the same.

:01:42.:01:44.

The established parties became marginalised,

:01:45.:01:49.

in third and fifth place and now the contest comes down to a showdown

:01:50.:01:52.

between nationalistic populism and globalist liberalism.

:01:53.:01:54.

That is the battle being fought across the west.

:01:55.:01:56.

France is now divided down the middle.

:01:57.:02:00.

The radical candidates, who want to overthrow

:02:01.:02:02.

the existing order - Le Pen on the populist right,

:02:03.:02:04.

Melenchon on the left, and six fringe candidates as well -

:02:05.:02:12.

they got a total of 49.6 per cent of the vote -

:02:13.:02:15.

There is an enormous well of discontent out there.

:02:16.:02:20.

For now, Emmanuel Macron is the man to watch - the best hope

:02:21.:02:23.

for a battered establishment of seeing off the radicals.

:02:24.:02:27.

But the twists continue in this campaign - tonight,

:02:28.:02:29.

his opponent Marine Le Pen has stepped aside from the presidency

:02:30.:02:32.

of her own party - she wants to be above partisan

:02:33.:02:35.

It is, and has been an extraordinary contest.

:02:36.:02:46.

The results last night led to joy in the Macron camp in Paris. Joy at the

:02:47.:03:00.

Le Pen camp. In her stronghold in the north of France.

:03:01.:03:06.

Disappointment that the basis of the traditional parties as scuffles in

:03:07.:03:13.

the Bastille. This is where French Revolution Zokora or are

:03:14.:03:18.

commemorated. Here antifascist protesters clashed with riot police.

:03:19.:03:20.

Less a sense of revolution, or of physical fights, just a public

:03:21.:03:28.

Who do you vote for now, Macron, Le Pen?

:03:29.:03:32.

Obviously Macron because we can't let that happen, there's no way

:03:33.:03:34.

in hell that we are going to let that happen.

:03:35.:03:36.

Like, she does not represent what this country stands for.

:03:37.:03:39.

She appeals to people's fear and she makes them

:03:40.:03:41.

I'm just hoping that France will not give in to that.

:03:42.:03:48.

Yes, I don't want to vote for him, so he won't get my vote.

:03:49.:03:54.

I won't vote Le Pen either because he will be present regardless.

:03:55.:04:02.

I will vote for Macron, obviously. I will vote for Macron because I'm

:04:03.:04:23.

voting against Marine Le Pen. I think many will do the same thing.

:04:24.:04:26.

We are obviously in the midst of enormous political upheaval

:04:27.:04:29.

The rise of a populist right, whether it is

:04:30.:04:33.

The rise of a populist left, whether it's Corbyn,

:04:34.:04:36.

The difficulties of established parties, particularly

:04:37.:04:39.

The gulf between the big metropolitan areas and

:04:40.:04:45.

Here in Paris, Le Pen only got 5% of the vote.

:04:46.:04:50.

In parts of northern France, she was on 30.

:04:51.:04:55.

But in each country there are some peculiarities and it is those that

:04:56.:05:01.

She's no-trump, she is the change candidate but she comes with the

:05:02.:05:23.

baggage of her party's past image so will struggle to win. On the other

:05:24.:05:27.

hand he is no Hillary Clint Hill. He is about saving the current system

:05:28.:05:32.

itself but managed to sell himself as a revolutionary. The contest is

:05:33.:05:33.

his to lose. Many left-leaning voters

:05:34.:05:35.

hate his economic liberalism. They will abstain rather

:05:36.:05:42.

than vote for him. Giving Le Pen a route to power,

:05:43.:05:44.

albeit an unlikely one. Whatever happens in two weeks'

:05:45.:05:47.

time it is going to be Obviously if Marine Le

:05:48.:05:50.

Pen wins it will be. If Macron wins, just think

:05:51.:05:54.

about his next five years. He has got to use that time to reach

:05:55.:05:57.

out to Le Pen voters and woo He has got to somehow reform France

:05:58.:06:03.

and get the system working here. And he's got to do all of that

:06:04.:06:08.

at the same time as finishing He's got a brand-new political

:06:09.:06:12.

party, he's got elections in June and he somehow has to get his people

:06:13.:06:16.

into that parliamentary He's handsome, he's clever,

:06:17.:06:19.

he speaks very well. But we needed kind of a nasty

:06:20.:06:39.

Johnson in order to get the bills of rights and the big society

:06:40.:06:45.

because Kennedy made wonderful speeches, but he had a very

:06:46.:06:47.

problematic foreign policy. And he couldn't get

:06:48.:06:54.

the laws he promised voted. And it was Lyndon Johnson

:06:55.:06:57.

who was much less sexy, that knew the Senate by heart,

:06:58.:07:01.

that knew the Congress. Round one is over, round to begin.

:07:02.:07:20.

But the real work is for the winner in round three. Bringing France

:07:21.:07:25.

together after a bruising period of debate and division.

:07:26.:07:27.

I can't stress enough how marmite Macron is.

:07:28.:07:30.

Many love him, French voters outside of France -

:07:31.:07:32.

in London for example - gave him a big lead.

:07:33.:07:35.

I spoke to a taxi driver last night who was very frustrated,

:07:36.:07:40.

and said he could never vote for either Macron or Le Pen.

:07:41.:07:47.

There are posters Tout Sauf Macron...

:07:48.:07:48.

And that is why it is interesting for the populist case,

:07:49.:07:52.

that Marine Le Pen is so far behind in the polls.

:07:53.:07:54.

Can she reach out to those on the left who like her

:07:55.:07:57.

Is that why she has distanced herself from her own party?

:07:58.:08:04.

Well, I'm joined by Mikael Sala, who is on Marine Le Pen's campaign

:08:05.:08:07.

committee and chairs 'Croissance Bleu Marine'

:08:08.:08:09.

Good evening. Why has she stepped down from the leadership of her own

:08:10.:08:21.

party? She's getting ready for the job, that she is getting in a couple

:08:22.:08:27.

of weeks. She will not be president of the National front and president

:08:28.:08:30.

of fans at the same time so she made the move right now and she's getting

:08:31.:08:34.

ready. It makes a lot of sense. The timing is perfect. Will she go back

:08:35.:08:39.

to being party leader if she loses the presidency? While the first

:08:40.:08:42.

thing is we will win this one. But just suppose you do not. The second

:08:43.:08:46.

thing is personally as a member of the National front, I want her to

:08:47.:08:51.

remain as boss because she's such a great boss to work for. So you're

:08:52.:08:55.

assuming she will go back to the leadership of the I hope so but she

:08:56.:09:00.

will win. There is another theory which is the tarnished brand is the

:09:01.:09:04.

brand of the National front and she's somehow knows that there are

:09:05.:09:12.

folks out there, that French people are economically nationalists, we've

:09:13.:09:15.

seen that in this vote and they cannot just quite bring themselves

:09:16.:09:19.

to vote for your party. There are several questions in one. The French

:09:20.:09:23.

presidential election is not an election between a party and the

:09:24.:09:28.

people of France, it is an election between a political personality and

:09:29.:09:31.

the people of France. That has always been the case. As opposed to

:09:32.:09:35.

parliamentary elections which are elections between a party and the

:09:36.:09:39.

people. That is one thing. Had this been the case she would have

:09:40.:09:44.

resigned from the presidency of the National front month ago. It is just

:09:45.:09:50.

like the launch pad, we launched the rocket of Marine Le Pen and now is

:09:51.:09:54.

the time to let the Rock would go and fly. How do you broaden your

:09:55.:09:58.

appeal them because effectively you are about 38 in the polls, Macron is

:09:59.:10:06.

60-something. You're just a long way from it. You say that you're going

:10:07.:10:10.

to win but how are you going to do it, how do you broaden the pitch to

:10:11.:10:13.

people who are scared of National front. Well we have been centrestage

:10:14.:10:20.

during this whole campaign. Because the western world is very tired of

:10:21.:10:24.

the concept of fierce globalisation. The globalisation that has created

:10:25.:10:31.

wealth... I think there are people scared of it but then why are you

:10:32.:10:35.

38% in the polls are not 50%. Well, it is coming. The first round is

:10:36.:10:40.

there for the people to express themselves and then they eliminate,

:10:41.:10:46.

the Jewish candidate who they feel is best suited for the job. And let

:10:47.:10:50.

me tell you one thing, the French will choose Marine Le Pen because

:10:51.:10:54.

she's the only states present left in this country today. Emmanuel

:10:55.:10:58.

Macron is not a statesman. First of all he's a bit young for the job and

:10:59.:11:04.

the way he has behaved, going to Berlin to meet Angela Merkel for a

:11:05.:11:08.

job interview, he is not a statesman. Clearly states present in

:11:09.:11:11.

this country is Marine Le Pen and this is why she does not need to

:11:12.:11:16.

fight, to broaden her appeal, that is broad enough. But there are many

:11:17.:11:21.

people who think that this is not the same party it was 20 years ago,

:11:22.:11:26.

but it has many of the same people in it who were there 20 years ago.

:11:27.:11:33.

Including Marine Le Pen. Do you think it is the same party it was 20

:11:34.:11:36.

years ago or is it a different party? It is different but the

:11:37.:11:41.

difference is, it is the continuing story. And personally I joined the

:11:42.:11:46.

National front in 2013, which is not too long ago. But Marine Le Pen was

:11:47.:11:52.

there when she was aged 1830 years ago. So you can see why some people,

:11:53.:11:57.

and you must have come across this, some people just think of this party

:11:58.:12:05.

as fascist, you have moved a long way but your vote share has only

:12:06.:12:09.

grown by 3%. You have a lot more to do. You know, parties involved, the

:12:10.:12:17.

kind of accusation that the party is nationalists does not stick. The

:12:18.:12:21.

French know that it is not the truth. Because what Marine Le Pen

:12:22.:12:25.

stands for is patriotism. She says what makes this country great or

:12:26.:12:30.

made it great is that France had the ability to make French are people

:12:31.:12:34.

coming from anywhere around the world. We lost that somewhere along

:12:35.:12:39.

the way because of the sheer number of migrants that this country had to

:12:40.:12:43.

take in. We cannot take in so many people any more. So we have to

:12:44.:12:47.

reduce the number of migrants to make sure that France has this

:12:48.:12:51.

ability to make French people again by assimilating them to our culture.

:12:52.:12:56.

Because it is not an ethnic country but a cultural country, a

:12:57.:12:59.

philosophical country. We must leave it there. Thank you very much.

:13:00.:13:02.

The Socialist Party's candidate did appallingly badly -

:13:03.:13:04.

Benoit Hamon's more pro-EU stance left him trailing the independent

:13:05.:13:06.

Working for his election, was the MP Axelle Lemaire,

:13:07.:13:16.

she has been minister for the digital economy,

:13:17.:13:17.

and represents the French citizens who live outside the country

:13:18.:13:20.

I asked her what lesson can her party draw from the election.

:13:21.:13:28.

One of the main lessons of the first round is that people want

:13:29.:13:31.

It is a no vote in the sense that it is an anti-system vote.

:13:32.:13:42.

And Emmanuel Macron was smart enough to play that card.

:13:43.:13:47.

The Socialist party wasn't good enough to renew itself.

:13:48.:13:50.

I think times have changed and party politics in the way it used to work

:13:51.:13:54.

You will vote for Emmanuel Macron, obviously.

:13:55.:14:03.

Many people who really want big change but who don't

:14:04.:14:12.

like Marine Le Pen, where do they go?

:14:13.:14:14.

My feeling is some of them will just abstain.

:14:15.:14:18.

I think it's a source of concern and it shouldn't be underestimated.

:14:19.:14:23.

I'm particularly worried coming from the Conservative activists

:14:24.:14:28.

because Francois Fillon called for a vote in favour of

:14:29.:14:30.

But the reality is that his core supporters,

:14:31.:14:38.

They're anti-Islam, not anti-Islamism.

:14:39.:14:52.

And some of them are closer in the position to Marine Le Pen

:14:53.:14:57.

Let me finish by asking you, when you look at the French

:14:58.:15:05.

political establishment, do you think they deserve

:15:06.:15:07.

Let's take stock of where we are: veteran journalists

:15:08.:15:18.

Christine Ockrent and Pierre Haski are with me, as they always

:15:19.:15:21.

seem to be when we talk about the French election.

:15:22.:15:24.

Good evening. Let's start on the Socialists, can they get this back

:15:25.:15:34.

together? The official party has done so badly, can they come back?

:15:35.:15:39.

Which socialists are you talking about? The party who have been

:15:40.:15:46.

governing. I mean, their performances the worst since the

:15:47.:15:54.

1950s. Socialism did quite well and she made that point. Melenchon will

:15:55.:16:02.

claim that he represents the new true socialist flame, ready... He is

:16:03.:16:12.

closer to Jeremy Corbyn. Maulana Shah has managed to do what others

:16:13.:16:23.

have not managed to do -- Melenchon. Here we have the situation, worried

:16:24.:16:28.

the Socialists, are left to be picked, what is left of them. Some

:16:29.:16:33.

of them will go towards Macron, the more liberal ones. He still has the

:16:34.:16:41.

sort of legitimacy for the social Democrat brand, which of course

:16:42.:16:44.

Macron has very much stolen to his own benefit. I am sure that Manuel

:16:45.:16:52.

Valls will try make a comeback. Let's talk about the Republicans,

:16:53.:16:56.

the right-wing party, they could easily have won this if they had put

:16:57.:17:00.

up a candidate who was not regarded as corrupt by most people. That why

:17:01.:17:07.

they will say that primaries, it is a terrible system, that Francois

:17:08.:17:11.

Fillon did win their primary, with a huge margin. He managed to transform

:17:12.:17:17.

an election that he could not lose into an election he could not win.

:17:18.:17:23.

That is why the party has murdered him, every leader of the party is

:17:24.:17:30.

mad at him and he paid the price today. All of the other candidates

:17:31.:17:33.

they were talking about all had issues and question marks. It will

:17:34.:17:40.

be interesting to see how he will make his comeback and want to lead

:17:41.:17:47.

the party. And still keep the 40-45 years old, the youngest Conservative

:17:48.:17:54.

crowd under a lease. The problem you're going to have, at these

:17:55.:17:59.

elections in June, the legislative elections and people are split

:18:00.:18:03.

between wanting to join Macron and help the new rejuvenation of

:18:04.:18:07.

politics but on the other side there is local politics and there are

:18:08.:18:11.

constituencies and people have invested in their lives there. I

:18:12.:18:15.

knew party system trying to break out of an old one. Also these people

:18:16.:18:19.

want to keep their seats and they will have to face probably Macron's

:18:20.:18:25.

candidates in their constituencies. But I think is really striking is

:18:26.:18:29.

the challenge for France. It is so important over the next five years,

:18:30.:18:35.

if Macron wins. It is how he reaches out to the Marine Le Pen voters.

:18:36.:18:42.

This country is very divided, there is a lot of discontent and a lot of

:18:43.:18:45.

people are feeling that they need a voice, aren't they? Is Macron

:18:46.:18:50.

capable of giving them a voice and making them feel listened to? That

:18:51.:18:54.

is what he is going to have to say in the coming ten days. We are all

:18:55.:19:03.

looking forward of course to the televised debate, which will take

:19:04.:19:07.

place next Wednesday, because that will be a real moment. Not only in

:19:08.:19:16.

politics. But also the psyche of the country. If he gets elected, which I

:19:17.:19:22.

think he will, all he does then is just change the face is not change

:19:23.:19:25.

the politics, then the way we do politics in this country, and as you

:19:26.:19:30.

say, reach out to the people who voted for Marine Le Pen, because

:19:31.:19:35.

they are angry people who have legitimate reasons to be angry. Then

:19:36.:19:41.

we are in trouble. We cannot go back to business as usual in this country

:19:42.:19:45.

after what happened. You're going through the same experiences as the

:19:46.:19:49.

US but it may be that you have a second chance for Macron to sort out

:19:50.:19:54.

the existing system before a populist takes over, if you look at

:19:55.:19:58.

it from that point of view, maybe France has something over the

:19:59.:20:03.

Liberals of the US. Emmanuel Macron knows how the state machinery works.

:20:04.:20:08.

That is the way he was educated, that is what his experience, however

:20:09.:20:14.

brief, has been in government. What he says about the way the French

:20:15.:20:21.

state, which has always been over powerful and looked upon as a sort

:20:22.:20:26.

of god on earth, it is interesting. I think the people you're talking

:20:27.:20:32.

about, Le Pen and also Jean-Luc Melenchon voters and voters are

:20:33.:20:35.

Francois Fillon, who will not necessarily fall in love with

:20:36.:20:40.

Macron. He will have to find a way to explain how he wants to modernise

:20:41.:20:45.

the relationship between the state and the citizen. We will need to

:20:46.:20:48.

leave it there. But this election has done more

:20:49.:20:50.

than anything to crystallise and clarify the divisions in several

:20:51.:20:54.

western countries? And so let me hand

:20:55.:20:56.

back to you in London. The reaction from France,

:20:57.:20:59.

but are there lessons of Emmanual Macron's first

:21:00.:21:02.

round victory for the centre Earlier this evening I spoke

:21:03.:21:04.

to the ardent europhile Peter Mandelson who tonight has

:21:05.:21:08.

launched a cross party campaign tonight to try to secure

:21:09.:21:10.

the defeat of pro Brexit MPs - of whatever party -

:21:11.:21:13.

in the coming election, but first I asked him

:21:14.:21:15.

whether Macron's It gives me great hope for France

:21:16.:21:47.

and gives me great hope for Europe. These are strong pro-Europeans, but

:21:48.:21:51.

he also recognises that Europe has to be reinvented. It is one thing to

:21:52.:21:55.

have a great vision, but it needs a better popular offer. There is a

:21:56.:21:59.

picture of him and on the shelf behind him is a copy of your book,

:22:00.:22:07.

The Third Man. Do you see him as an air to Tony Blair? In a sense, yes.

:22:08.:22:13.

He is somebody who very convincingly has set out to appeal, both to the

:22:14.:22:20.

centre-left and to the centre-right, who build a new Coalition, a new

:22:21.:22:25.

majority in France, who will give him backing for the sort of reforms

:22:26.:22:29.

that he wants to see through, but which you cannot see through in

:22:30.:22:33.

France, without a big body of support behind you. But then, what

:22:34.:22:39.

is the lesson for the centre-left here, is it that you really have to

:22:40.:22:45.

break, with as it were at the old left? I think you have to be

:22:46.:22:49.

prepared, as Macron did, to construct a campaign, outside

:22:50.:22:56.

conventional norms or conventional Outlook or attitudes. I mean the

:22:57.:23:01.

public are absolutely desperate Down outside the party? In his case, yes,

:23:02.:23:06.

because the parties socialists in France was crumbling around their

:23:07.:23:10.

ears. There really was not a centre-left party with which to

:23:11.:23:15.

campaign any more, worth its name. Like in the UK? That is not the case

:23:16.:23:19.

in Britain. We still have a Labour Party. Going through obviously the

:23:20.:23:25.

trials and tribulations that we have become familiar with, but I think

:23:26.:23:31.

the key point about Macron is that although he knew he had to appeal to

:23:32.:23:34.

both centre-left and centre-right, he knew he had to stand for

:23:35.:23:38.

something, he had to have a clear sense of where he wanted to take the

:23:39.:23:44.

country. Do you see anyone who has a Macron type figure here for the

:23:45.:23:49.

centre-left? Can you identify anyone? No, because the people who

:23:50.:23:54.

are merging are merging within the Labour Party and not outside it, as

:23:55.:23:59.

Macron had to do. Who do you see emerging in the Labour Party who has

:24:00.:24:04.

that centre-left mantel? I am not going to tantalise you with names

:24:05.:24:08.

and gases. All I know is that there are a younger generation in the

:24:09.:24:13.

Labour Party, they do have that sense of vigour and commitment and

:24:14.:24:15.

one of them will come forward in order to lead the party to eventual

:24:16.:24:22.

victory but that is some way off. Is there a circumstance do you think

:24:23.:24:27.

when voting Labour will not necessarily deliver the best result

:24:28.:24:30.

for the kind of Brexit you would like to see? I am a supporter of

:24:31.:24:36.

open Britain, the largest pro-European membership organisation

:24:37.:24:41.

in the country and what they want to do is to campaign in the most

:24:42.:24:48.

effective way against a hard Brexit, against ebbing Theresa May the blank

:24:49.:24:54.

check that she is looking for in the selection, to take Britain out of

:24:55.:24:58.

Europe on my view in the worst terms imaginable. This cross party

:24:59.:25:03.

grouping is launching its campaign now to give support for the most

:25:04.:25:08.

pro-remain-macro candidate standing, do you accept that might not be a

:25:09.:25:13.

Labour candidate? And also to oppose those of a hard Brexit and it will

:25:14.:25:16.

be different people from different parties. In that sense what you're

:25:17.:25:21.

saying is that in some constituencies it might be better to

:25:22.:25:24.

park your vote with the Liberal Democrats than for Labour? That is

:25:25.:25:28.

for people to decide, we are not telling people how to vote. If you

:25:29.:25:37.

want to know how I would vote, I would be supporting the Labour

:25:38.:25:41.

candidate. The point is not to tell people how to vote, it would be to

:25:42.:25:44.

advise them and help them to make the most effective intervention in

:25:45.:25:49.

constituencies around the country that can make a difference to the

:25:50.:25:53.

sort of majority that Theresa May gets at the end of it. That is what

:25:54.:25:59.

democracy is all about. What is the Labour position on Brexit now?

:26:00.:26:05.

Search me! I think you need to wait for the manifesto. The problem for

:26:06.:26:09.

the Labour Party in the selection on Brexit is very clear and that is

:26:10.:26:12.

that they are not I am afraid differentiating between their

:26:13.:26:16.

position and policy sufficiently from the government or have not done

:26:17.:26:20.

up until now. They needed to do that if they were going to offer the

:26:21.:26:25.

voters a clear choice but I hope that that will come out in the wash

:26:26.:26:29.

and I hope that in the coming days and weeks we will see a clearer

:26:30.:26:32.

rather than a more robust approach from the Labour Party on this,

:26:33.:26:37.

because Labour Party supporters and voters and members right across the

:26:38.:26:42.

country are looking for leadership on Brexit rather than an equivocal,

:26:43.:26:45.

rather more fence sitting position and approach we have had to date. If

:26:46.:26:51.

there is a defeat of the Labour Party, and just say Jeremy Corbyn

:26:52.:26:55.

puts on a million votes still, should he stay? He may see that as a

:26:56.:27:05.

mandate to carry on. Any leader who has the control of the party that he

:27:06.:27:08.

does, who will run the campaign in the way that he chooses, must also

:27:09.:27:11.

own the result that he gets and he must see the conclusion that defeat

:27:12.:27:16.

presents him with an fall on his sword. I hope you will do that. Any

:27:17.:27:22.

person with an ounce of loyalty or responsibility to the Labour Party

:27:23.:27:27.

would do precisely that. Just coming back to Brexit and the idea, the

:27:28.:27:31.

thing that you're desperately trying to stop is a hard Brexit, do you

:27:32.:27:37.

think that Brexit itself is an inevitability? We are set on a

:27:38.:27:41.

course to leave the European Union. We have had the referendum, we know

:27:42.:27:47.

the result. What we don't know and this is fundamentally important, is

:27:48.:27:50.

how we are going to leave the European Union and on what terms,

:27:51.:27:55.

with what future trade deal between Europe and the European Union. He

:27:56.:28:00.

was the point in my view, the government has deliberately narrowed

:28:01.:28:03.

its options. I don't believe there is a one size fits all Brexit. There

:28:04.:28:07.

are different permutations and different types of Brexit, different

:28:08.:28:13.

terms on which we can leave the European Union and secure the

:28:14.:28:17.

greatest continuity of our trade in and with the European Union and my

:28:18.:28:20.

complaint and criticism of the government is that they are

:28:21.:28:23.

narrowing their options, taking options from the table, we know why,

:28:24.:28:27.

it is for purely political and ideological reasons because she is

:28:28.:28:31.

giving into the wild men in her party. That is what she is doing and

:28:32.:28:35.

in the process she is sacrificing them interest of our nation. You

:28:36.:28:42.

proud to be as of Brexit? I could not be more pleased with the Daily

:28:43.:28:46.

Mail calling me a saboteur and say that I had to be crushed. The other

:28:47.:28:53.

day the Sun newspaper devoted a leader to announcing -- denouncing

:28:54.:28:57.

my treachery. I am as patriotically the next person but one thing I am

:28:58.:29:01.

not is a national list. I love my country that is why I am a patriot.

:29:02.:29:07.

I do not hate other countries as nationalists do. Proud saboteur,

:29:08.:29:11.

Peter Mandelson, thank you very much. Thank you.

:29:12.:29:14.

And Labour's Brexit Spokesman Keir Starmer will be setting out Labour's

:29:15.:29:17.

position on the Today Programme, Radio 4 at 8.10 tomorrow morning.

:29:18.:29:19.

Sheryl Sandberg, the Chief Operating Officer of Facebook,

:29:20.:29:21.

came to the world's attention four years ago when Lean IN was published

:29:22.:29:24.

- a hand book designed to help professional women

:29:25.:29:26.

reach their career goals and overcome the barriers that exist

:29:27.:29:29.

Then in May 2015 her husband Dave Goldberg died tragically

:29:30.:29:34.

after sustaining a head injury when he fell from a treadmill.

:29:35.:29:37.

After his death Sandberg felt certain that she and her children

:29:38.:29:40.

would never feel pure joy again but her friend Adam Grant,

:29:41.:29:42.

a psychologist at the University of Pennsylvania told her

:29:43.:29:44.

about concrete steps people can take to help them recover

:29:45.:29:47.

Together they have written a book, 'Option B: Facing Adversity,

:29:48.:29:50.

Building Resilience, and Finding Joy'.

:29:51.:29:51.

My biggest fear was that my kids would never be happy again,

:29:52.:30:15.

that all of their happiness would have been wiped

:30:16.:30:17.

And so I turned to my friend Adam Gray who is a psychologist,

:30:18.:30:22.

How do I get my kids through this, how do I get myself through this?

:30:23.:30:28.

And I learned that resilience is not something we have a set amount of.

:30:29.:30:31.

We build it, we build it in ourselves, in each other.

:30:32.:30:36.

And Option B is our attempt to share what we learned.

:30:37.:30:41.

From the researchers who have studied this for a really long time,

:30:42.:30:44.

from other people who have faced all forms of adversity.

:30:45.:30:49.

And how do you get away then from that sense that

:30:50.:30:52.

what you were feeling at the worst moment would be with you forever?

:30:53.:30:57.

It's about when it is so bad, knowing or believing

:30:58.:31:06.

I felt I was sucked into a void, like I could barely breathe.

:31:07.:31:19.

My brother-in-law talked about it, David's brother,

:31:20.:31:21.

as a boot stuck on his chest, pushing him in.

:31:22.:31:23.

And people told me, who had been through it, this gets better.

:31:24.:31:27.

Adam told me it gets better and I did not believe them.

:31:28.:31:29.

And I'm hoping Option B can do that, can tell people no matter how bad it

:31:30.:31:33.

feels, the sadness lingers, it's still with me today,

:31:34.:31:35.

And one of the ways you can make it get better is just

:31:36.:31:40.

You don't have to feel it, because you're not going to.

:31:41.:31:43.

And the other thing is, paying attention to the little,

:31:44.:31:47.

But a couple of weeks or months in, or even days in, I could laugh

:31:48.:31:58.

at one funny thing someone said and feel OK for a minute.

:31:59.:32:01.

And knowing that and then being able to say, OK,

:32:02.:32:05.

other people have been through this, you can get to the other side, makes

:32:06.:32:09.

Was it right at the beginning, or did it hit much later?

:32:10.:32:16.

My brother-in-law kind of pulled me off his body

:32:17.:32:22.

I told my children they had lost their father.

:32:23.:32:33.

Like, there are so many bad moments, there is no one worst moment.

:32:34.:32:38.

But in all of it, was this feeling that it would never get better.

:32:39.:32:43.

But there are things I've learned through this.

:32:44.:32:53.

And knowing that there was a path to that boot getting lifted

:32:54.:32:56.

And what was the most helpful thing, was there one thing that you point

:32:57.:33:05.

How do you go through tragedy and trauma and come out

:33:06.:33:11.

But one day Adam said to me, you know, you really should think

:33:12.:33:15.

And he looked at me and said, David could have had that

:33:16.:33:25.

same cardiac arrhythmia driving your children.

:33:26.:33:28.

I could have lost all three of them in that same incident.

:33:29.:33:31.

And actually, the minute you say it, even here,

:33:32.:33:35.

And finding ways to feel grateful for what we have left,

:33:36.:33:44.

for no matter how hard things are, for the good things in life,

:33:45.:33:48.

You know, it never occurred to me that David would not turn 48.

:33:49.:33:54.

It never occurred to me to feel grateful for

:33:55.:33:57.

You talk about the moment when you pushed against the bottom

:33:58.:34:01.

and finally found that kick-off to get back up to the surface.

:34:02.:34:04.

One thing Adam told me was that happiness is not

:34:05.:34:10.

It's actually found in the small stuff.

:34:11.:34:14.

After Dave died I was waiting to feel better.

:34:15.:34:17.

And on the way there, I was not doing anything fun.

:34:18.:34:21.

I was working, was taking care of my children,

:34:22.:34:24.

I would spend the rest of my time crying.

:34:25.:34:27.

And then one day I went to a bar mitzvah and a childhood friend

:34:28.:34:35.

pulled me onto the dance floor and I danced.

:34:36.:34:37.

It was about four months after Dave died.

:34:38.:34:42.

Because I think I felt so guilty that I had felt

:34:43.:34:46.

And I needed permission to feel better.

:34:47.:34:49.

My brother-in-law, Dave's brother, gave it to me and it was one

:34:50.:34:52.

of the most important things that's happened in my life.

:34:53.:34:54.

He called me one day crying and he said, Sheryl,

:34:55.:34:56.

all Dave ever wanted was for you and your

:34:57.:34:59.

And there is a role for social media in grief?

:35:00.:35:07.

You turned to Facebook to write that post after the formal

:35:08.:35:09.

And remember vividly you said, don't ask me how I am.

:35:10.:35:13.

I know I work at Facebook and I believe deeply

:35:14.:35:18.

But I have a whole new understanding of what it can mean to people

:35:19.:35:22.

going through tragedy, as it was for me.

:35:23.:35:24.

You know, after I lost Dave, it wasn't just the grief.

:35:25.:35:27.

I came back to work, I'd always had very friendly

:35:28.:35:30.

And no one knew what to say to me, so often they said nothing.

:35:31.:35:36.

The only kind of looked at me like I was a ghost.

:35:37.:35:38.

And so there is that Jewish of mourning for a spouse.

:35:39.:35:43.

At the end of that period I wrote a post about how I was feeling.

:35:44.:35:47.

And the night before I went to sleep, I said there is no

:35:48.:35:50.

way I am posting this, it is too honest and too

:35:51.:35:52.

And the next morning I felt so terrible, I thought

:35:53.:35:56.

But for me, having people say how are you today,

:35:57.:36:04.

having people acknowledge, kicking the elephant out

:36:05.:36:05.

And very much the path to writing this book.

:36:06.:36:10.

I guess social media can also be a place that amplifies grief.

:36:11.:36:13.

I mean, I have spoken to grieving mothers who have, you know,

:36:14.:36:16.

It's sort of unthinkable, but did you witness any of that yourself?

:36:17.:36:25.

You know, 1.8 billion people on our platform, things happen.

:36:26.:36:29.

And those are things we don't want to happen and we take very

:36:30.:36:32.

seriously and try and take the appropriate action.

:36:33.:36:35.

For me Facebook became the place where Dave's memories were stored.

:36:36.:36:38.

You know, people would walk up to me in those early days and still today,

:36:39.:36:42.

But, you know, in the fog of grief, I wasn't going

:36:43.:36:48.

I wasn't going to remember all the details perfectly,

:36:49.:36:51.

to save them for my children who are going to know their father

:36:52.:36:54.

Because they were so young when he died.

:36:55.:36:59.

And so Dave's Facebook page is where those stories live.

:37:00.:37:03.

And people's names and people's faces.

:37:04.:37:06.

You have such, of course, a positive sense of what social media can do.

:37:07.:37:14.

But there's also this sense now, isn't there, that the internet

:37:15.:37:20.

we used to think of as providing unambiguous improvement

:37:21.:37:22.

to the world, now it feels like the mood is shifting.

:37:23.:37:25.

Whether it is polarising us politically or eating

:37:26.:37:27.

Do you sense that backlash against the digital revolution?

:37:28.:37:36.

Any technology I know can be used for good and can be

:37:37.:37:39.

And it's our job to make sure that people can share and connect

:37:40.:37:44.

on Facebook and that we take the right steps to mitigate

:37:45.:37:47.

the harm when the technology is used in the wrong ways.

:37:48.:37:51.

One of the things that I think really helps Facebook is we have

:37:52.:37:59.

People behave better when their names and their faces

:38:00.:38:02.

Some people will still make awful comments and some

:38:03.:38:05.

But a lot of the bad comments go away when you can't

:38:06.:38:09.

Tell me one thing, the rumour is that Silicon chiefs know how

:38:10.:38:13.

addictive screen time can be for their kids.

:38:14.:38:15.

Do you have the same problems as the rest of us?

:38:16.:38:18.

How do you manage that with your kids?

:38:19.:38:19.

Well, I think that there's a lot of good that happens online.

:38:20.:38:22.

They research things for school, even in elementary school,

:38:23.:38:30.

they have access to information that I could have never, ever had.

:38:31.:38:34.

And we have rules around screen time in my house as well.

:38:35.:38:38.

And we have, you know, no phone at the table,

:38:39.:38:45.

no phone during meals, no phone before

:38:46.:38:47.

Facebook has been very proactive in combating fake news.

:38:48.:38:53.

You have this disputed content warning sign now

:38:54.:38:57.

Do you feel that this is a gesture that you are morphing

:38:58.:39:02.

We are really a platform and we take our responsibilities

:39:03.:39:09.

Because it makes our community uninformed,

:39:10.:39:17.

it hurts our community, it hurts countries.

:39:18.:39:21.

And we know that people want to see accurate news on Facebook,

:39:22.:39:24.

So you have to become a publisher, an editorial voice now?

:39:25.:39:33.

I do not think we have to be the publisher and we definitely

:39:34.:39:36.

don't want to be arbiter of the truth.

:39:37.:39:38.

We don't think that's appropriate for us.

:39:39.:39:39.

We think everyone needs to do their part.

:39:40.:39:41.

We're focused on decreasing the financial incentives for false news.

:39:42.:39:47.

Because a lot of times it is financially motivated.

:39:48.:39:50.

Do you think fake news, though, is with us for life,

:39:51.:39:53.

Well, we all have to do our part to make sure that people seek

:39:54.:39:57.

And figuring out how we do that is something we're

:39:58.:40:06.

going to have to see and will evolve.

:40:07.:40:08.

The goal is for people to see accurate information on Facebook

:40:09.:40:12.

That's about it for tonight, but before we go, pop fans

:40:13.:40:23.

celebrated today as it was announced that the orginal line-up of the '80s

:40:24.:40:26.

girl group Bananarama were reforming for the first time since 1988.

:40:27.:40:28.

And, with an election in the air, what better way to remember Keren,

:40:29.:40:36.

Siobhan and Sara than with this - highly political -

:40:37.:40:39.

promo for their 1988 greatest hits album.

:40:40.:40:40.

# Robert De Niro's waiting, talking Italian...

:40:41.:40:52.

# Because I'm guilty, guilty as guilty as a girl can be...

:40:53.:41:10.

The most successful British girl group ever.

:41:11.:41:17.

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