24/04/2017 Newsnight

Populist nationalism and global liberalism are to fight

On the one side, Emmanuel Macron - who sells himself as a radical

outsider, but who aims to reform and preserve the existing order.

the real anti-establishment outsider.

But she came in second, and is starting from behind.

We ask this Front National campaign official whether the party

is capable of broadening its appeal to keep Macron out?

Labour is about to launch its Brexit strategy,

but the architect of the last Labour victory is in the dark.

What is the liberal position on Brexit now. Well, search me.

And in an exclusive interview Facebook's Sheryl Sandberg talks

to us about how she came to terms with her husband's sudden death.

There are so many bad moments, there is no one worst moment.

But in all of it, was this feeling that it would never get better

And after an election campaign of twists and turns,

the big surprise was the lack of big surprise.

But it is a huge turning point all the same.

The established parties became marginalised,

in third and fifth place and now the contest comes down to a showdown

between nationalistic populism and globalist liberalism.

That is the battle being fought across the west.

France is now divided down the middle.

The radical candidates, who want to overthrow

the existing order - Le Pen on the populist right,

Melenchon on the left, and six fringe candidates as well -

they got a total of 49.6 per cent of the vote -

There is an enormous well of discontent out there.

For now, Emmanuel Macron is the man to watch - the best hope

for a battered establishment of seeing off the radicals.

But the twists continue in this campaign - tonight,

his opponent Marine Le Pen has stepped aside from the presidency

of her own party - she wants to be above partisan

It is, and has been an extraordinary contest.

The results last night led to joy in the Macron camp in Paris. Joy at the

Le Pen camp. In her stronghold in the north of France.

Disappointment that the basis of the traditional parties as scuffles in

the Bastille. This is where French Revolution Zokora or are

commemorated. Here antifascist protesters clashed with riot police.

Less a sense of revolution, or of physical fights, just a public

Who do you vote for now, Macron, Le Pen?

Obviously Macron because we can't let that happen, there's no way

in hell that we are going to let that happen.

Like, she does not represent what this country stands for.

She appeals to people's fear and she makes them

I'm just hoping that France will not give in to that.

Yes, I don't want to vote for him, so he won't get my vote.

I won't vote Le Pen either because he will be present regardless.

I will vote for Macron, obviously. I will vote for Macron because I'm

voting against Marine Le Pen. I think many will do the same thing.

We are obviously in the midst of enormous political upheaval

The rise of a populist right, whether it is

The rise of a populist left, whether it's Corbyn,

The difficulties of established parties, particularly

The gulf between the big metropolitan areas and

Here in Paris, Le Pen only got 5% of the vote.

In parts of northern France, she was on 30.

But in each country there are some peculiarities and it is those that

She's no-trump, she is the change candidate but she comes with the

baggage of her party's past image so will struggle to win. On the other

hand he is no Hillary Clint Hill. He is about saving the current system

itself but managed to sell himself as a revolutionary. The contest is

his to lose. Many left-leaning voters

hate his economic liberalism. They will abstain rather

than vote for him. Giving Le Pen a route to power,

albeit an unlikely one. Whatever happens in two weeks'

time it is going to be Obviously if Marine Le

Pen wins it will be. If Macron wins, just think

about his next five years. He has got to use that time to reach

out to Le Pen voters and woo He has got to somehow reform France

and get the system working here. And he's got to do all of that

at the same time as finishing He's got a brand-new political

party, he's got elections in June and he somehow has to get his people

into that parliamentary He's handsome, he's clever,

he speaks very well. But we needed kind of a nasty

Johnson in order to get the bills of rights and the big society

because Kennedy made wonderful speeches, but he had a very

problematic foreign policy. And he couldn't get

the laws he promised voted. And it was Lyndon Johnson

who was much less sexy, that knew the Senate by heart,

that knew the Congress. Round one is over, round to begin.

But the real work is for the winner in round three. Bringing France

together after a bruising period of debate and division.

I can't stress enough how marmite Macron is.

Many love him, French voters outside of France -

in London for example - gave him a big lead.

I spoke to a taxi driver last night who was very frustrated,

and said he could never vote for either Macron or Le Pen.

There are posters Tout Sauf Macron...

And that is why it is interesting for the populist case,

that Marine Le Pen is so far behind in the polls.

Can she reach out to those on the left who like her

Is that why she has distanced herself from her own party?

Well, I'm joined by Mikael Sala, who is on Marine Le Pen's campaign

committee and chairs 'Croissance Bleu Marine'

Good evening. Why has she stepped down from the leadership of her own

party? She's getting ready for the job, that she is getting in a couple

of weeks. She will not be president of the National front and president

of fans at the same time so she made the move right now and she's getting

ready. It makes a lot of sense. The timing is perfect. Will she go back

to being party leader if she loses the presidency? While the first

thing is we will win this one. But just suppose you do not. The second

thing is personally as a member of the National front, I want her to

remain as boss because she's such a great boss to work for. So you're

assuming she will go back to the leadership of the I hope so but she

will win. There is another theory which is the tarnished brand is the

brand of the National front and she's somehow knows that there are

folks out there, that French people are economically nationalists, we've

seen that in this vote and they cannot just quite bring themselves

to vote for your party. There are several questions in one. The French

presidential election is not an election between a party and the

people of France, it is an election between a political personality and

the people of France. That has always been the case. As opposed to

parliamentary elections which are elections between a party and the

people. That is one thing. Had this been the case she would have

resigned from the presidency of the National front month ago. It is just

like the launch pad, we launched the rocket of Marine Le Pen and now is

the time to let the Rock would go and fly. How do you broaden your

appeal them because effectively you are about 38 in the polls, Macron is

60-something. You're just a long way from it. You say that you're going

to win but how are you going to do it, how do you broaden the pitch to

people who are scared of National front. Well we have been centrestage

during this whole campaign. Because the western world is very tired of

the concept of fierce globalisation. The globalisation that has created

wealth... I think there are people scared of it but then why are you

38% in the polls are not 50%. Well, it is coming. The first round is

there for the people to express themselves and then they eliminate,

the Jewish candidate who they feel is best suited for the job. And let

me tell you one thing, the French will choose Marine Le Pen because

she's the only states present left in this country today. Emmanuel

Macron is not a statesman. First of all he's a bit young for the job and

the way he has behaved, going to Berlin to meet Angela Merkel for a

job interview, he is not a statesman. Clearly states present in

this country is Marine Le Pen and this is why she does not need to

fight, to broaden her appeal, that is broad enough. But there are many

people who think that this is not the same party it was 20 years ago,

but it has many of the same people in it who were there 20 years ago.

Including Marine Le Pen. Do you think it is the same party it was 20

years ago or is it a different party? It is different but the

difference is, it is the continuing story. And personally I joined the

National front in 2013, which is not too long ago. But Marine Le Pen was

there when she was aged 1830 years ago. So you can see why some people,

and you must have come across this, some people just think of this party

as fascist, you have moved a long way but your vote share has only

grown by 3%. You have a lot more to do. You know, parties involved, the

kind of accusation that the party is nationalists does not stick. The

French know that it is not the truth. Because what Marine Le Pen

stands for is patriotism. She says what makes this country great or

made it great is that France had the ability to make French are people

coming from anywhere around the world. We lost that somewhere along

the way because of the sheer number of migrants that this country had to

take in. We cannot take in so many people any more. So we have to

reduce the number of migrants to make sure that France has this

ability to make French people again by assimilating them to our culture.

Because it is not an ethnic country but a cultural country, a

philosophical country. We must leave it there. Thank you very much.

The Socialist Party's candidate did appallingly badly -

Benoit Hamon's more pro-EU stance left him trailing the independent

Working for his election, was the MP Axelle Lemaire,

she has been minister for the digital economy,

and represents the French citizens who live outside the country

I asked her what lesson can her party draw from the election.

One of the main lessons of the first round is that people want

It is a no vote in the sense that it is an anti-system vote.

And Emmanuel Macron was smart enough to play that card.

The Socialist party wasn't good enough to renew itself.

I think times have changed and party politics in the way it used to work

You will vote for Emmanuel Macron, obviously.

Many people who really want big change but who don't

like Marine Le Pen, where do they go?

My feeling is some of them will just abstain.

I think it's a source of concern and it shouldn't be underestimated.

I'm particularly worried coming from the Conservative activists

because Francois Fillon called for a vote in favour of

But the reality is that his core supporters,

They're anti-Islam, not anti-Islamism.

And some of them are closer in the position to Marine Le Pen

Let me finish by asking you, when you look at the French

political establishment, do you think they deserve

Let's take stock of where we are: veteran journalists

Christine Ockrent and Pierre Haski are with me, as they always

seem to be when we talk about the French election.

Good evening. Let's start on the Socialists, can they get this back

together? The official party has done so badly, can they come back?

Which socialists are you talking about? The party who have been

governing. I mean, their performances the worst since the

1950s. Socialism did quite well and she made that point. Melenchon will

claim that he represents the new true socialist flame, ready... He is

closer to Jeremy Corbyn. Maulana Shah has managed to do what others

have not managed to do -- Melenchon. Here we have the situation, worried

the Socialists, are left to be picked, what is left of them. Some

of them will go towards Macron, the more liberal ones. He still has the

sort of legitimacy for the social Democrat brand, which of course

Macron has very much stolen to his own benefit. I am sure that Manuel

Valls will try make a comeback. Let's talk about the Republicans,

the right-wing party, they could easily have won this if they had put

up a candidate who was not regarded as corrupt by most people. That why

they will say that primaries, it is a terrible system, that Francois

Fillon did win their primary, with a huge margin. He managed to transform

an election that he could not lose into an election he could not win.

That is why the party has murdered him, every leader of the party is

mad at him and he paid the price today. All of the other candidates

they were talking about all had issues and question marks. It will

be interesting to see how he will make his comeback and want to lead

the party. And still keep the 40-45 years old, the youngest Conservative

crowd under a lease. The problem you're going to have, at these

elections in June, the legislative elections and people are split

between wanting to join Macron and help the new rejuvenation of

politics but on the other side there is local politics and there are

constituencies and people have invested in their lives there. I

knew party system trying to break out of an old one. Also these people

want to keep their seats and they will have to face probably Macron's

candidates in their constituencies. But I think is really striking is

the challenge for France. It is so important over the next five years,

if Macron wins. It is how he reaches out to the Marine Le Pen voters.

This country is very divided, there is a lot of discontent and a lot of

people are feeling that they need a voice, aren't they? Is Macron

capable of giving them a voice and making them feel listened to? That

is what he is going to have to say in the coming ten days. We are all

looking forward of course to the televised debate, which will take

place next Wednesday, because that will be a real moment. Not only in

politics. But also the psyche of the country. If he gets elected, which I

think he will, all he does then is just change the face is not change

the politics, then the way we do politics in this country, and as you

say, reach out to the people who voted for Marine Le Pen, because

they are angry people who have legitimate reasons to be angry. Then

we are in trouble. We cannot go back to business as usual in this country

after what happened. You're going through the same experiences as the

US but it may be that you have a second chance for Macron to sort out

the existing system before a populist takes over, if you look at

it from that point of view, maybe France has something over the

Liberals of the US. Emmanuel Macron knows how the state machinery works.

That is the way he was educated, that is what his experience, however

brief, has been in government. What he says about the way the French

state, which has always been over powerful and looked upon as a sort

of god on earth, it is interesting. I think the people you're talking

about, Le Pen and also Jean-Luc Melenchon voters and voters are

Francois Fillon, who will not necessarily fall in love with

Macron. He will have to find a way to explain how he wants to modernise

the relationship between the state and the citizen. We will need to

leave it there. But this election has done more

than anything to crystallise and clarify the divisions in several

western countries? And so let me hand

back to you in London. The reaction from France,

but are there lessons of Emmanual Macron's first

round victory for the centre Earlier this evening I spoke

to the ardent europhile Peter Mandelson who tonight has

launched a cross party campaign tonight to try to secure

the defeat of pro Brexit MPs - of whatever party -

in the coming election, but first I asked him

whether Macron's It gives me great hope for France

and gives me great hope for Europe. These are strong pro-Europeans, but

he also recognises that Europe has to be reinvented. It is one thing to

have a great vision, but it needs a better popular offer. There is a

picture of him and on the shelf behind him is a copy of your book,

The Third Man. Do you see him as an air to Tony Blair? In a sense, yes.

He is somebody who very convincingly has set out to appeal, both to the

centre-left and to the centre-right, who build a new Coalition, a new

majority in France, who will give him backing for the sort of reforms

that he wants to see through, but which you cannot see through in

France, without a big body of support behind you. But then, what

is the lesson for the centre-left here, is it that you really have to

break, with as it were at the old left? I think you have to be

prepared, as Macron did, to construct a campaign, outside

conventional norms or conventional Outlook or attitudes. I mean the

public are absolutely desperate Down outside the party? In his case, yes,

because the parties socialists in France was crumbling around their

ears. There really was not a centre-left party with which to

campaign any more, worth its name. Like in the UK? That is not the case

in Britain. We still have a Labour Party. Going through obviously the

trials and tribulations that we have become familiar with, but I think

the key point about Macron is that although he knew he had to appeal to

both centre-left and centre-right, he knew he had to stand for

something, he had to have a clear sense of where he wanted to take the

country. Do you see anyone who has a Macron type figure here for the

centre-left? Can you identify anyone? No, because the people who

are merging are merging within the Labour Party and not outside it, as

Macron had to do. Who do you see emerging in the Labour Party who has

that centre-left mantel? I am not going to tantalise you with names

and gases. All I know is that there are a younger generation in the

Labour Party, they do have that sense of vigour and commitment and

one of them will come forward in order to lead the party to eventual

victory but that is some way off. Is there a circumstance do you think

when voting Labour will not necessarily deliver the best result

for the kind of Brexit you would like to see? I am a supporter of

open Britain, the largest pro-European membership organisation

in the country and what they want to do is to campaign in the most

effective way against a hard Brexit, against ebbing Theresa May the blank

check that she is looking for in the selection, to take Britain out of

Europe on my view in the worst terms imaginable. This cross party

grouping is launching its campaign now to give support for the most

pro-remain-macro candidate standing, do you accept that might not be a

Labour candidate? And also to oppose those of a hard Brexit and it will

be different people from different parties. In that sense what you're

saying is that in some constituencies it might be better to

park your vote with the Liberal Democrats than for Labour? That is

for people to decide, we are not telling people how to vote. If you

want to know how I would vote, I would be supporting the Labour

candidate. The point is not to tell people how to vote, it would be to

advise them and help them to make the most effective intervention in

constituencies around the country that can make a difference to the

sort of majority that Theresa May gets at the end of it. That is what

democracy is all about. What is the Labour position on Brexit now?

Search me! I think you need to wait for the manifesto. The problem for

the Labour Party in the selection on Brexit is very clear and that is

that they are not I am afraid differentiating between their

position and policy sufficiently from the government or have not done

up until now. They needed to do that if they were going to offer the

voters a clear choice but I hope that that will come out in the wash

and I hope that in the coming days and weeks we will see a clearer

rather than a more robust approach from the Labour Party on this,

because Labour Party supporters and voters and members right across the

country are looking for leadership on Brexit rather than an equivocal,

rather more fence sitting position and approach we have had to date. If

there is a defeat of the Labour Party, and just say Jeremy Corbyn

puts on a million votes still, should he stay? He may see that as a

mandate to carry on. Any leader who has the control of the party that he

does, who will run the campaign in the way that he chooses, must also

own the result that he gets and he must see the conclusion that defeat

presents him with an fall on his sword. I hope you will do that. Any

person with an ounce of loyalty or responsibility to the Labour Party

would do precisely that. Just coming back to Brexit and the idea, the

thing that you're desperately trying to stop is a hard Brexit, do you

think that Brexit itself is an inevitability? We are set on a

course to leave the European Union. We have had the referendum, we know

the result. What we don't know and this is fundamentally important, is

how we are going to leave the European Union and on what terms,

with what future trade deal between Europe and the European Union. He

was the point in my view, the government has deliberately narrowed

its options. I don't believe there is a one size fits all Brexit. There

are different permutations and different types of Brexit, different

terms on which we can leave the European Union and secure the

greatest continuity of our trade in and with the European Union and my

complaint and criticism of the government is that they are

narrowing their options, taking options from the table, we know why,

it is for purely political and ideological reasons because she is

giving into the wild men in her party. That is what she is doing and

in the process she is sacrificing them interest of our nation. You

proud to be as of Brexit? I could not be more pleased with the Daily

Mail calling me a saboteur and say that I had to be crushed. The other

day the Sun newspaper devoted a leader to announcing -- denouncing

my treachery. I am as patriotically the next person but one thing I am

not is a national list. I love my country that is why I am a patriot.

I do not hate other countries as nationalists do. Proud saboteur,

Peter Mandelson, thank you very much. Thank you.

And Labour's Brexit Spokesman Keir Starmer will be setting out Labour's

position on the Today Programme, Radio 4 at 8.10 tomorrow morning.

Sheryl Sandberg, the Chief Operating Officer of Facebook,

came to the world's attention four years ago when Lean IN was published

- a hand book designed to help professional women

reach their career goals and overcome the barriers that exist

Then in May 2015 her husband Dave Goldberg died tragically

after sustaining a head injury when he fell from a treadmill.

After his death Sandberg felt certain that she and her children

would never feel pure joy again but her friend Adam Grant,

a psychologist at the University of Pennsylvania told her

about concrete steps people can take to help them recover

Together they have written a book, 'Option B: Facing Adversity,

Building Resilience, and Finding Joy'.

My biggest fear was that my kids would never be happy again,

that all of their happiness would have been wiped

And so I turned to my friend Adam Gray who is a psychologist,

How do I get my kids through this, how do I get myself through this?

And I learned that resilience is not something we have a set amount of.

We build it, we build it in ourselves, in each other.

And Option B is our attempt to share what we learned.

From the researchers who have studied this for a really long time,

from other people who have faced all forms of adversity.

And how do you get away then from that sense that

what you were feeling at the worst moment would be with you forever?

It's about when it is so bad, knowing or believing

I felt I was sucked into a void, like I could barely breathe.

My brother-in-law talked about it, David's brother,

as a boot stuck on his chest, pushing him in.

And people told me, who had been through it, this gets better.

Adam told me it gets better and I did not believe them.

And I'm hoping Option B can do that, can tell people no matter how bad it

feels, the sadness lingers, it's still with me today,

And one of the ways you can make it get better is just

You don't have to feel it, because you're not going to.

And the other thing is, paying attention to the little,

But a couple of weeks or months in, or even days in, I could laugh

at one funny thing someone said and feel OK for a minute.

And knowing that and then being able to say, OK,

other people have been through this, you can get to the other side, makes

Was it right at the beginning, or did it hit much later?

My brother-in-law kind of pulled me off his body

I told my children they had lost their father.

Like, there are so many bad moments, there is no one worst moment.

But in all of it, was this feeling that it would never get better.

But there are things I've learned through this.

And knowing that there was a path to that boot getting lifted

And what was the most helpful thing, was there one thing that you point

How do you go through tragedy and trauma and come out

But one day Adam said to me, you know, you really should think

And he looked at me and said, David could have had that

same cardiac arrhythmia driving your children.

I could have lost all three of them in that same incident.

And actually, the minute you say it, even here,

And finding ways to feel grateful for what we have left,

for no matter how hard things are, for the good things in life,

You know, it never occurred to me that David would not turn 48.

It never occurred to me to feel grateful for

You talk about the moment when you pushed against the bottom

and finally found that kick-off to get back up to the surface.

One thing Adam told me was that happiness is not

It's actually found in the small stuff.

After Dave died I was waiting to feel better.

And on the way there, I was not doing anything fun.

I was working, was taking care of my children,

I would spend the rest of my time crying.

And then one day I went to a bar mitzvah and a childhood friend

pulled me onto the dance floor and I danced.

It was about four months after Dave died.

Because I think I felt so guilty that I had felt

And I needed permission to feel better.

My brother-in-law, Dave's brother, gave it to me and it was one

of the most important things that's happened in my life.

He called me one day crying and he said, Sheryl,

all Dave ever wanted was for you and your

And there is a role for social media in grief?

You turned to Facebook to write that post after the formal

And remember vividly you said, don't ask me how I am.

I know I work at Facebook and I believe deeply

But I have a whole new understanding of what it can mean to people

going through tragedy, as it was for me.

You know, after I lost Dave, it wasn't just the grief.

I came back to work, I'd always had very friendly

And no one knew what to say to me, so often they said nothing.

The only kind of looked at me like I was a ghost.

And so there is that Jewish of mourning for a spouse.

At the end of that period I wrote a post about how I was feeling.

And the night before I went to sleep, I said there is no

way I am posting this, it is too honest and too

And the next morning I felt so terrible, I thought

But for me, having people say how are you today,

having people acknowledge, kicking the elephant out

And very much the path to writing this book.

I guess social media can also be a place that amplifies grief.

I mean, I have spoken to grieving mothers who have, you know,

It's sort of unthinkable, but did you witness any of that yourself?

You know, 1.8 billion people on our platform, things happen.

And those are things we don't want to happen and we take very

seriously and try and take the appropriate action.

For me Facebook became the place where Dave's memories were stored.

You know, people would walk up to me in those early days and still today,

But, you know, in the fog of grief, I wasn't going

I wasn't going to remember all the details perfectly,

to save them for my children who are going to know their father

Because they were so young when he died.

And so Dave's Facebook page is where those stories live.

And people's names and people's faces.

You have such, of course, a positive sense of what social media can do.

But there's also this sense now, isn't there, that the internet

we used to think of as providing unambiguous improvement

to the world, now it feels like the mood is shifting.

Whether it is polarising us politically or eating

Do you sense that backlash against the digital revolution?

Any technology I know can be used for good and can be

And it's our job to make sure that people can share and connect

on Facebook and that we take the right steps to mitigate

the harm when the technology is used in the wrong ways.

One of the things that I think really helps Facebook is we have

People behave better when their names and their faces

Some people will still make awful comments and some

But a lot of the bad comments go away when you can't

Tell me one thing, the rumour is that Silicon chiefs know how

addictive screen time can be for their kids.

Do you have the same problems as the rest of us?

How do you manage that with your kids?

Well, I think that there's a lot of good that happens online.

They research things for school, even in elementary school,

they have access to information that I could have never, ever had.

And we have rules around screen time in my house as well.

And we have, you know, no phone at the table,

no phone during meals, no phone before

Facebook has been very proactive in combating fake news.

You have this disputed content warning sign now

Do you feel that this is a gesture that you are morphing

We are really a platform and we take our responsibilities

Because it makes our community uninformed,

it hurts our community, it hurts countries.

And we know that people want to see accurate news on Facebook,

So you have to become a publisher, an editorial voice now?

I do not think we have to be the publisher and we definitely

don't want to be arbiter of the truth.

We don't think that's appropriate for us.

We think everyone needs to do their part.

We're focused on decreasing the financial incentives for false news.

Because a lot of times it is financially motivated.

Do you think fake news, though, is with us for life,

Well, we all have to do our part to make sure that people seek

And figuring out how we do that is something we're

going to have to see and will evolve.

The goal is for people to see accurate information on Facebook

That's about it for tonight, but before we go, pop fans

celebrated today as it was announced that the orginal line-up of the '80s

girl group Bananarama were reforming for the first time since 1988.

And, with an election in the air, what better way to remember Keren,

Siobhan and Sara than with this - highly political -

promo for their 1988 greatest hits album.

# Robert De Niro's waiting, talking Italian...

# Because I'm guilty, guilty as guilty as a girl can be...

The most successful British girl group ever.