24/04/2017 Newsnight


The aftermath of the French election, Peter Mandelson on Macron and Corbyn and Facebook's Sheryl Sandberg on coping with grief.

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 24/04/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!



Populist nationalism and global liberalism are to fight


On the one side, Emmanuel Macron - who sells himself as a radical


outsider, but who aims to reform and preserve the existing order.


the real anti-establishment outsider.


But she came in second, and is starting from behind.


We ask this Front National campaign official whether the party


is capable of broadening its appeal to keep Macron out?


Labour is about to launch its Brexit strategy,


but the architect of the last Labour victory is in the dark.


What is the liberal position on Brexit now. Well, search me.


And in an exclusive interview Facebook's Sheryl Sandberg talks


to us about how she came to terms with her husband's sudden death.


There are so many bad moments, there is no one worst moment.


But in all of it, was this feeling that it would never get better


And after an election campaign of twists and turns,


the big surprise was the lack of big surprise.


But it is a huge turning point all the same.


The established parties became marginalised,


in third and fifth place and now the contest comes down to a showdown


between nationalistic populism and globalist liberalism.


That is the battle being fought across the west.


France is now divided down the middle.


The radical candidates, who want to overthrow


the existing order - Le Pen on the populist right,


Melenchon on the left, and six fringe candidates as well -


they got a total of 49.6 per cent of the vote -


There is an enormous well of discontent out there.


For now, Emmanuel Macron is the man to watch - the best hope


for a battered establishment of seeing off the radicals.


But the twists continue in this campaign - tonight,


his opponent Marine Le Pen has stepped aside from the presidency


of her own party - she wants to be above partisan


It is, and has been an extraordinary contest.


The results last night led to joy in the Macron camp in Paris. Joy at the


Le Pen camp. In her stronghold in the north of France.


Disappointment that the basis of the traditional parties as scuffles in


the Bastille. This is where French Revolution Zokora or are


commemorated. Here antifascist protesters clashed with riot police.


Less a sense of revolution, or of physical fights, just a public


Who do you vote for now, Macron, Le Pen?


Obviously Macron because we can't let that happen, there's no way


in hell that we are going to let that happen.


Like, she does not represent what this country stands for.


She appeals to people's fear and she makes them


I'm just hoping that France will not give in to that.


Yes, I don't want to vote for him, so he won't get my vote.


I won't vote Le Pen either because he will be present regardless.


I will vote for Macron, obviously. I will vote for Macron because I'm


voting against Marine Le Pen. I think many will do the same thing.


We are obviously in the midst of enormous political upheaval


The rise of a populist right, whether it is


The rise of a populist left, whether it's Corbyn,


The difficulties of established parties, particularly


The gulf between the big metropolitan areas and


Here in Paris, Le Pen only got 5% of the vote.


In parts of northern France, she was on 30.


But in each country there are some peculiarities and it is those that


She's no-trump, she is the change candidate but she comes with the


baggage of her party's past image so will struggle to win. On the other


hand he is no Hillary Clint Hill. He is about saving the current system


itself but managed to sell himself as a revolutionary. The contest is


his to lose. Many left-leaning voters


hate his economic liberalism. They will abstain rather


than vote for him. Giving Le Pen a route to power,


albeit an unlikely one. Whatever happens in two weeks'


time it is going to be Obviously if Marine Le


Pen wins it will be. If Macron wins, just think


about his next five years. He has got to use that time to reach


out to Le Pen voters and woo He has got to somehow reform France


and get the system working here. And he's got to do all of that


at the same time as finishing He's got a brand-new political


party, he's got elections in June and he somehow has to get his people


into that parliamentary He's handsome, he's clever,


he speaks very well. But we needed kind of a nasty


Johnson in order to get the bills of rights and the big society


because Kennedy made wonderful speeches, but he had a very


problematic foreign policy. And he couldn't get


the laws he promised voted. And it was Lyndon Johnson


who was much less sexy, that knew the Senate by heart,


that knew the Congress. Round one is over, round to begin.


But the real work is for the winner in round three. Bringing France


together after a bruising period of debate and division.


I can't stress enough how marmite Macron is.


Many love him, French voters outside of France -


in London for example - gave him a big lead.


I spoke to a taxi driver last night who was very frustrated,


and said he could never vote for either Macron or Le Pen.


There are posters Tout Sauf Macron...


And that is why it is interesting for the populist case,


that Marine Le Pen is so far behind in the polls.


Can she reach out to those on the left who like her


Is that why she has distanced herself from her own party?


Well, I'm joined by Mikael Sala, who is on Marine Le Pen's campaign


committee and chairs 'Croissance Bleu Marine'


Good evening. Why has she stepped down from the leadership of her own


party? She's getting ready for the job, that she is getting in a couple


of weeks. She will not be president of the National front and president


of fans at the same time so she made the move right now and she's getting


ready. It makes a lot of sense. The timing is perfect. Will she go back


to being party leader if she loses the presidency? While the first


thing is we will win this one. But just suppose you do not. The second


thing is personally as a member of the National front, I want her to


remain as boss because she's such a great boss to work for. So you're


assuming she will go back to the leadership of the I hope so but she


will win. There is another theory which is the tarnished brand is the


brand of the National front and she's somehow knows that there are


folks out there, that French people are economically nationalists, we've


seen that in this vote and they cannot just quite bring themselves


to vote for your party. There are several questions in one. The French


presidential election is not an election between a party and the


people of France, it is an election between a political personality and


the people of France. That has always been the case. As opposed to


parliamentary elections which are elections between a party and the


people. That is one thing. Had this been the case she would have


resigned from the presidency of the National front month ago. It is just


like the launch pad, we launched the rocket of Marine Le Pen and now is


the time to let the Rock would go and fly. How do you broaden your


appeal them because effectively you are about 38 in the polls, Macron is


60-something. You're just a long way from it. You say that you're going


to win but how are you going to do it, how do you broaden the pitch to


people who are scared of National front. Well we have been centrestage


during this whole campaign. Because the western world is very tired of


the concept of fierce globalisation. The globalisation that has created


wealth... I think there are people scared of it but then why are you


38% in the polls are not 50%. Well, it is coming. The first round is


there for the people to express themselves and then they eliminate,


the Jewish candidate who they feel is best suited for the job. And let


me tell you one thing, the French will choose Marine Le Pen because


she's the only states present left in this country today. Emmanuel


Macron is not a statesman. First of all he's a bit young for the job and


the way he has behaved, going to Berlin to meet Angela Merkel for a


job interview, he is not a statesman. Clearly states present in


this country is Marine Le Pen and this is why she does not need to


fight, to broaden her appeal, that is broad enough. But there are many


people who think that this is not the same party it was 20 years ago,


but it has many of the same people in it who were there 20 years ago.


Including Marine Le Pen. Do you think it is the same party it was 20


years ago or is it a different party? It is different but the


difference is, it is the continuing story. And personally I joined the


National front in 2013, which is not too long ago. But Marine Le Pen was


there when she was aged 1830 years ago. So you can see why some people,


and you must have come across this, some people just think of this party


as fascist, you have moved a long way but your vote share has only


grown by 3%. You have a lot more to do. You know, parties involved, the


kind of accusation that the party is nationalists does not stick. The


French know that it is not the truth. Because what Marine Le Pen


stands for is patriotism. She says what makes this country great or


made it great is that France had the ability to make French are people


coming from anywhere around the world. We lost that somewhere along


the way because of the sheer number of migrants that this country had to


take in. We cannot take in so many people any more. So we have to


reduce the number of migrants to make sure that France has this


ability to make French people again by assimilating them to our culture.


Because it is not an ethnic country but a cultural country, a


philosophical country. We must leave it there. Thank you very much.


The Socialist Party's candidate did appallingly badly -


Benoit Hamon's more pro-EU stance left him trailing the independent


Working for his election, was the MP Axelle Lemaire,


she has been minister for the digital economy,


and represents the French citizens who live outside the country


I asked her what lesson can her party draw from the election.


One of the main lessons of the first round is that people want


It is a no vote in the sense that it is an anti-system vote.


And Emmanuel Macron was smart enough to play that card.


The Socialist party wasn't good enough to renew itself.


I think times have changed and party politics in the way it used to work


You will vote for Emmanuel Macron, obviously.


Many people who really want big change but who don't


like Marine Le Pen, where do they go?


My feeling is some of them will just abstain.


I think it's a source of concern and it shouldn't be underestimated.


I'm particularly worried coming from the Conservative activists


because Francois Fillon called for a vote in favour of


But the reality is that his core supporters,


They're anti-Islam, not anti-Islamism.


And some of them are closer in the position to Marine Le Pen


Let me finish by asking you, when you look at the French


political establishment, do you think they deserve


Let's take stock of where we are: veteran journalists


Christine Ockrent and Pierre Haski are with me, as they always


seem to be when we talk about the French election.


Good evening. Let's start on the Socialists, can they get this back


together? The official party has done so badly, can they come back?


Which socialists are you talking about? The party who have been


governing. I mean, their performances the worst since the


1950s. Socialism did quite well and she made that point. Melenchon will


claim that he represents the new true socialist flame, ready... He is


closer to Jeremy Corbyn. Maulana Shah has managed to do what others


have not managed to do -- Melenchon. Here we have the situation, worried


the Socialists, are left to be picked, what is left of them. Some


of them will go towards Macron, the more liberal ones. He still has the


sort of legitimacy for the social Democrat brand, which of course


Macron has very much stolen to his own benefit. I am sure that Manuel


Valls will try make a comeback. Let's talk about the Republicans,


the right-wing party, they could easily have won this if they had put


up a candidate who was not regarded as corrupt by most people. That why


they will say that primaries, it is a terrible system, that Francois


Fillon did win their primary, with a huge margin. He managed to transform


an election that he could not lose into an election he could not win.


That is why the party has murdered him, every leader of the party is


mad at him and he paid the price today. All of the other candidates


they were talking about all had issues and question marks. It will


be interesting to see how he will make his comeback and want to lead


the party. And still keep the 40-45 years old, the youngest Conservative


crowd under a lease. The problem you're going to have, at these


elections in June, the legislative elections and people are split


between wanting to join Macron and help the new rejuvenation of


politics but on the other side there is local politics and there are


constituencies and people have invested in their lives there. I


knew party system trying to break out of an old one. Also these people


want to keep their seats and they will have to face probably Macron's


candidates in their constituencies. But I think is really striking is


the challenge for France. It is so important over the next five years,


if Macron wins. It is how he reaches out to the Marine Le Pen voters.


This country is very divided, there is a lot of discontent and a lot of


people are feeling that they need a voice, aren't they? Is Macron


capable of giving them a voice and making them feel listened to? That


is what he is going to have to say in the coming ten days. We are all


looking forward of course to the televised debate, which will take


place next Wednesday, because that will be a real moment. Not only in


politics. But also the psyche of the country. If he gets elected, which I


think he will, all he does then is just change the face is not change


the politics, then the way we do politics in this country, and as you


say, reach out to the people who voted for Marine Le Pen, because


they are angry people who have legitimate reasons to be angry. Then


we are in trouble. We cannot go back to business as usual in this country


after what happened. You're going through the same experiences as the


US but it may be that you have a second chance for Macron to sort out


the existing system before a populist takes over, if you look at


it from that point of view, maybe France has something over the


Liberals of the US. Emmanuel Macron knows how the state machinery works.


That is the way he was educated, that is what his experience, however


brief, has been in government. What he says about the way the French


state, which has always been over powerful and looked upon as a sort


of god on earth, it is interesting. I think the people you're talking


about, Le Pen and also Jean-Luc Melenchon voters and voters are


Francois Fillon, who will not necessarily fall in love with


Macron. He will have to find a way to explain how he wants to modernise


the relationship between the state and the citizen. We will need to


leave it there. But this election has done more


than anything to crystallise and clarify the divisions in several


western countries? And so let me hand


back to you in London. The reaction from France,


but are there lessons of Emmanual Macron's first


round victory for the centre Earlier this evening I spoke


to the ardent europhile Peter Mandelson who tonight has


launched a cross party campaign tonight to try to secure


the defeat of pro Brexit MPs - of whatever party -


in the coming election, but first I asked him


whether Macron's It gives me great hope for France


and gives me great hope for Europe. These are strong pro-Europeans, but


he also recognises that Europe has to be reinvented. It is one thing to


have a great vision, but it needs a better popular offer. There is a


picture of him and on the shelf behind him is a copy of your book,


The Third Man. Do you see him as an air to Tony Blair? In a sense, yes.


He is somebody who very convincingly has set out to appeal, both to the


centre-left and to the centre-right, who build a new Coalition, a new


majority in France, who will give him backing for the sort of reforms


that he wants to see through, but which you cannot see through in


France, without a big body of support behind you. But then, what


is the lesson for the centre-left here, is it that you really have to


break, with as it were at the old left? I think you have to be


prepared, as Macron did, to construct a campaign, outside


conventional norms or conventional Outlook or attitudes. I mean the


public are absolutely desperate Down outside the party? In his case, yes,


because the parties socialists in France was crumbling around their


ears. There really was not a centre-left party with which to


campaign any more, worth its name. Like in the UK? That is not the case


in Britain. We still have a Labour Party. Going through obviously the


trials and tribulations that we have become familiar with, but I think


the key point about Macron is that although he knew he had to appeal to


both centre-left and centre-right, he knew he had to stand for


something, he had to have a clear sense of where he wanted to take the


country. Do you see anyone who has a Macron type figure here for the


centre-left? Can you identify anyone? No, because the people who


are merging are merging within the Labour Party and not outside it, as


Macron had to do. Who do you see emerging in the Labour Party who has


that centre-left mantel? I am not going to tantalise you with names


and gases. All I know is that there are a younger generation in the


Labour Party, they do have that sense of vigour and commitment and


one of them will come forward in order to lead the party to eventual


victory but that is some way off. Is there a circumstance do you think


when voting Labour will not necessarily deliver the best result


for the kind of Brexit you would like to see? I am a supporter of


open Britain, the largest pro-European membership organisation


in the country and what they want to do is to campaign in the most


effective way against a hard Brexit, against ebbing Theresa May the blank


check that she is looking for in the selection, to take Britain out of


Europe on my view in the worst terms imaginable. This cross party


grouping is launching its campaign now to give support for the most


pro-remain-macro candidate standing, do you accept that might not be a


Labour candidate? And also to oppose those of a hard Brexit and it will


be different people from different parties. In that sense what you're


saying is that in some constituencies it might be better to


park your vote with the Liberal Democrats than for Labour? That is


for people to decide, we are not telling people how to vote. If you


want to know how I would vote, I would be supporting the Labour


candidate. The point is not to tell people how to vote, it would be to


advise them and help them to make the most effective intervention in


constituencies around the country that can make a difference to the


sort of majority that Theresa May gets at the end of it. That is what


democracy is all about. What is the Labour position on Brexit now?


Search me! I think you need to wait for the manifesto. The problem for


the Labour Party in the selection on Brexit is very clear and that is


that they are not I am afraid differentiating between their


position and policy sufficiently from the government or have not done


up until now. They needed to do that if they were going to offer the


voters a clear choice but I hope that that will come out in the wash


and I hope that in the coming days and weeks we will see a clearer


rather than a more robust approach from the Labour Party on this,


because Labour Party supporters and voters and members right across the


country are looking for leadership on Brexit rather than an equivocal,


rather more fence sitting position and approach we have had to date. If


there is a defeat of the Labour Party, and just say Jeremy Corbyn


puts on a million votes still, should he stay? He may see that as a


mandate to carry on. Any leader who has the control of the party that he


does, who will run the campaign in the way that he chooses, must also


own the result that he gets and he must see the conclusion that defeat


presents him with an fall on his sword. I hope you will do that. Any


person with an ounce of loyalty or responsibility to the Labour Party


would do precisely that. Just coming back to Brexit and the idea, the


thing that you're desperately trying to stop is a hard Brexit, do you


think that Brexit itself is an inevitability? We are set on a


course to leave the European Union. We have had the referendum, we know


the result. What we don't know and this is fundamentally important, is


how we are going to leave the European Union and on what terms,


with what future trade deal between Europe and the European Union. He


was the point in my view, the government has deliberately narrowed


its options. I don't believe there is a one size fits all Brexit. There


are different permutations and different types of Brexit, different


terms on which we can leave the European Union and secure the


greatest continuity of our trade in and with the European Union and my


complaint and criticism of the government is that they are


narrowing their options, taking options from the table, we know why,


it is for purely political and ideological reasons because she is


giving into the wild men in her party. That is what she is doing and


in the process she is sacrificing them interest of our nation. You


proud to be as of Brexit? I could not be more pleased with the Daily


Mail calling me a saboteur and say that I had to be crushed. The other


day the Sun newspaper devoted a leader to announcing -- denouncing


my treachery. I am as patriotically the next person but one thing I am


not is a national list. I love my country that is why I am a patriot.


I do not hate other countries as nationalists do. Proud saboteur,


Peter Mandelson, thank you very much. Thank you.


And Labour's Brexit Spokesman Keir Starmer will be setting out Labour's


position on the Today Programme, Radio 4 at 8.10 tomorrow morning.


Sheryl Sandberg, the Chief Operating Officer of Facebook,


came to the world's attention four years ago when Lean IN was published


- a hand book designed to help professional women


reach their career goals and overcome the barriers that exist


Then in May 2015 her husband Dave Goldberg died tragically


after sustaining a head injury when he fell from a treadmill.


After his death Sandberg felt certain that she and her children


would never feel pure joy again but her friend Adam Grant,


a psychologist at the University of Pennsylvania told her


about concrete steps people can take to help them recover


Together they have written a book, 'Option B: Facing Adversity,


Building Resilience, and Finding Joy'.


My biggest fear was that my kids would never be happy again,


that all of their happiness would have been wiped


And so I turned to my friend Adam Gray who is a psychologist,


How do I get my kids through this, how do I get myself through this?


And I learned that resilience is not something we have a set amount of.


We build it, we build it in ourselves, in each other.


And Option B is our attempt to share what we learned.


From the researchers who have studied this for a really long time,


from other people who have faced all forms of adversity.


And how do you get away then from that sense that


what you were feeling at the worst moment would be with you forever?


It's about when it is so bad, knowing or believing


I felt I was sucked into a void, like I could barely breathe.


My brother-in-law talked about it, David's brother,


as a boot stuck on his chest, pushing him in.


And people told me, who had been through it, this gets better.


Adam told me it gets better and I did not believe them.


And I'm hoping Option B can do that, can tell people no matter how bad it


feels, the sadness lingers, it's still with me today,


And one of the ways you can make it get better is just


You don't have to feel it, because you're not going to.


And the other thing is, paying attention to the little,


But a couple of weeks or months in, or even days in, I could laugh


at one funny thing someone said and feel OK for a minute.


And knowing that and then being able to say, OK,


other people have been through this, you can get to the other side, makes


Was it right at the beginning, or did it hit much later?


My brother-in-law kind of pulled me off his body


I told my children they had lost their father.


Like, there are so many bad moments, there is no one worst moment.


But in all of it, was this feeling that it would never get better.


But there are things I've learned through this.


And knowing that there was a path to that boot getting lifted


And what was the most helpful thing, was there one thing that you point


How do you go through tragedy and trauma and come out


But one day Adam said to me, you know, you really should think


And he looked at me and said, David could have had that


same cardiac arrhythmia driving your children.


I could have lost all three of them in that same incident.


And actually, the minute you say it, even here,


And finding ways to feel grateful for what we have left,


for no matter how hard things are, for the good things in life,


You know, it never occurred to me that David would not turn 48.


It never occurred to me to feel grateful for


You talk about the moment when you pushed against the bottom


and finally found that kick-off to get back up to the surface.


One thing Adam told me was that happiness is not


It's actually found in the small stuff.


After Dave died I was waiting to feel better.


And on the way there, I was not doing anything fun.


I was working, was taking care of my children,


I would spend the rest of my time crying.


And then one day I went to a bar mitzvah and a childhood friend


pulled me onto the dance floor and I danced.


It was about four months after Dave died.


Because I think I felt so guilty that I had felt


And I needed permission to feel better.


My brother-in-law, Dave's brother, gave it to me and it was one


of the most important things that's happened in my life.


He called me one day crying and he said, Sheryl,


all Dave ever wanted was for you and your


And there is a role for social media in grief?


You turned to Facebook to write that post after the formal


And remember vividly you said, don't ask me how I am.


I know I work at Facebook and I believe deeply


But I have a whole new understanding of what it can mean to people


going through tragedy, as it was for me.


You know, after I lost Dave, it wasn't just the grief.


I came back to work, I'd always had very friendly


And no one knew what to say to me, so often they said nothing.


The only kind of looked at me like I was a ghost.


And so there is that Jewish of mourning for a spouse.


At the end of that period I wrote a post about how I was feeling.


And the night before I went to sleep, I said there is no


way I am posting this, it is too honest and too


And the next morning I felt so terrible, I thought


But for me, having people say how are you today,


having people acknowledge, kicking the elephant out


And very much the path to writing this book.


I guess social media can also be a place that amplifies grief.


I mean, I have spoken to grieving mothers who have, you know,


It's sort of unthinkable, but did you witness any of that yourself?


You know, 1.8 billion people on our platform, things happen.


And those are things we don't want to happen and we take very


seriously and try and take the appropriate action.


For me Facebook became the place where Dave's memories were stored.


You know, people would walk up to me in those early days and still today,


But, you know, in the fog of grief, I wasn't going


I wasn't going to remember all the details perfectly,


to save them for my children who are going to know their father


Because they were so young when he died.


And so Dave's Facebook page is where those stories live.


And people's names and people's faces.


You have such, of course, a positive sense of what social media can do.


But there's also this sense now, isn't there, that the internet


we used to think of as providing unambiguous improvement


to the world, now it feels like the mood is shifting.


Whether it is polarising us politically or eating


Do you sense that backlash against the digital revolution?


Any technology I know can be used for good and can be


And it's our job to make sure that people can share and connect


on Facebook and that we take the right steps to mitigate


the harm when the technology is used in the wrong ways.


One of the things that I think really helps Facebook is we have


People behave better when their names and their faces


Some people will still make awful comments and some


But a lot of the bad comments go away when you can't


Tell me one thing, the rumour is that Silicon chiefs know how


addictive screen time can be for their kids.


Do you have the same problems as the rest of us?


How do you manage that with your kids?


Well, I think that there's a lot of good that happens online.


They research things for school, even in elementary school,


they have access to information that I could have never, ever had.


And we have rules around screen time in my house as well.


And we have, you know, no phone at the table,


no phone during meals, no phone before


Facebook has been very proactive in combating fake news.


You have this disputed content warning sign now


Do you feel that this is a gesture that you are morphing


We are really a platform and we take our responsibilities


Because it makes our community uninformed,


it hurts our community, it hurts countries.


And we know that people want to see accurate news on Facebook,


So you have to become a publisher, an editorial voice now?


I do not think we have to be the publisher and we definitely


don't want to be arbiter of the truth.


We don't think that's appropriate for us.


We think everyone needs to do their part.


We're focused on decreasing the financial incentives for false news.


Because a lot of times it is financially motivated.


Do you think fake news, though, is with us for life,


Well, we all have to do our part to make sure that people seek


And figuring out how we do that is something we're


going to have to see and will evolve.


The goal is for people to see accurate information on Facebook


That's about it for tonight, but before we go, pop fans


celebrated today as it was announced that the orginal line-up of the '80s


girl group Bananarama were reforming for the first time since 1988.


And, with an election in the air, what better way to remember Keren,


Siobhan and Sara than with this - highly political -


promo for their 1988 greatest hits album.


# Robert De Niro's waiting, talking Italian...


# Because I'm guilty, guilty as guilty as a girl can be...


The most successful British girl group ever.


Download Subtitles