02/05/2017 Newsnight

We will half the deficit. As we reduce the deficit, our country is

facing the largest budget deficit in modern history.

No one seems to be talking about it - does that mean we can stop

The parties are not saying much about money at the moment.

But taxes, spending and borrowing are what governments do.

Tonight, we'll ask if election promises on tax and spending can

Also tonight, the 15-year-old anorexia sufferer who took her own

life after being discharged from mental health care

We'll hear from the writer Emma Woolf, who suffered

And Cornelia Parker has been appointed

What's caught her cultured eye so far?

You do like a dimpled seat. I hope I am not fixated on bottoms.

However hard the parties may try to control election campaigns,

they are inevitably punctuated by unpredictable events.

We've not had anything quite like that yet,

but Labour today had it's most awkward moment of

A big announcement on police numbers, and then, on LBC,

the Shadow Home Secretary Diane Abbott faced presenter

Nick Ferrari - this is Ms Abbott on The Daily Politics listening back

How much would 10,000 police officers cost?

Well, if we recruit the 10,000 policemen and women over a four-year

period, we believe it will be about ?300,000.

Our political editor Nick Watt is here.

It was excruciating. Excruciating, embarrassing worthy adjectives

thrown around today and that was the Labour side. You know things are

going badly when your fellow frontbenchers, in this case on the

Labour side, are joking with Conservative ministers on the other

side about how badly you have done. Privately, Diane Abbott is telling

friends it was a car crash into view. One friend said, it is a bit

like a moment when you wake up and you think, was it really that bad?

And the answer is yes, it was. These accidents happen and it is not the

first time Nick Ferrari has put someone in that situation,, Natalie

Bennett in the last election of the Green Party. The danger is this. It

makes Labour looked dysfunctional and it plays into the conservative

narrative that you have certainty with them and chaos under a future

Labour government. Interestingly it shows there are poor relations

between two of the leading members of the Shadow Cabinet who are old

comrades on the left, which is Diane Abbott who was supposed to introduce

the 10,000 officers, and John MacDonald the Shadow Chancellor who

is meant to pay for them. I understand Diane Abbott until 2am

this morning was poring over a laboured oximeter because she feared

the weak spot for her in the interview is Labour had indicated

the policy areas that would be paid for from the pot she was using, the

2.7 billion from reversing a cut in capital gains tax. She had an answer

to that when she was asked on the Today programme. She said this was

before the manifesto and this is the manifesto but when she was asked the

simple question, how much would it cost, her friend said she was thrown

off her stride. Well, in most elections,

everything comes back to money, which is why questions are always

asked about costings. If anything, this one so far

has been about Brexit, and it's as though the deficit,

which dominated for years, So the well-regarded and independent

Institute for Fiscal Studies has published a realty check today,

helpfully telling us everything about it,

and what it is that the last two Parliaments have done,

or not done to it. It covers the deficit,

on taxes and spending. Chris Cook has been delving

inside the IFS report. One topic was central to the last

two general elections. We will half the deficit over the next four

years. As we reduce the deficit. Our country is facing the largest budget

deficit in modern history. And you can expect it to recur in this one.

We need a credible plan for dealing with the deficit. Despite a rather

different contexts. We will clear the deficit as soon as possible. The

financial crisis and recession increase the deficit to the highest

level since the Second World War back in 2009-10. It has generally

fallen since and is back to level before the crisis, a bit above the

average but not high by historical standards, so there is a case for

more deficit reduction, not least because we have racked up debt over

the years but not a deficit so large it is extraordinary or out of normal

bounds. It stands at about 3% of national output, which is a bit high

but less than the deficits of France, the US and Japan. More than

the deficits in Germany or Ireland and the permanent memento of the

crisis, the debt burden is 80%, still smaller than the US, France

and Japan, but again ahead of Germany or Ireland. Since 2010 there

have been some things that have not been restrained from growing, like

pensions. There are things that have been relatively shielded, like the

NHS. There are some things that have been boosted, like international

development. Overall, there has been a major spending squeeze. After the

financial crisis spending rose to a peak of around 45% of output and

since then, it has been squeezed to the precrisis level of just under

40%. Now tax receipts have in recent years just started to creep up. But

it is spending cuts that have done most of the working closing the

deficit. The fiscal problem for the government is we are seven years

into the austerity drive and the low hanging fruit has been plucked. It

is hard to see how the NHS will stay within its budget for the next few

years. It is already miles of targets and schools are planning to

lay off teachers to get through the next budget round. And the prison

system is creaking. Austerity is a lot harder than it used to be. Doing

spending cuts painlessly will become more difficult over time. The waste

and low value programmes are likely to have been eliminated already and

if we look at the last election, David Cameron was adamant the

government could take 1% a year out of public spending the first two

years but the data shows spending rose in those years. Instead of

taking 15 billion out they have added 23 billion. That is why the

Tories have drifted into line with what were Ed Miliband's spending

plans. The Tories attacked Labour in 2015 for planning to spend more and

we can expect that argument this time around but if the Conservatives

want to close the deficit by the next Parliament, they need another

?15 billion in tax hikes or spending cuts. And all the easy spending cuts

have gone. Chris Philp is a Conservative MP

on the Treasury Select Committee. Mariana Mazzucato is Professor

in the Economics of Innovation and Public Value at UCL,

and sat on the Labour Party's Chris, why did the Tories implement

Ed Miliband's manifesto during the parliament that is just finishing?

The Conservatives did what was fiscally responsible, taking down

Labour's deficit down to 3%. That is not the question, it was why have

you implemented Ed Miliband's rather than your own goals? It is only two

years. He went into the campaign with a lot of promises. You will

attack the Labour Party in this one on the same grounds. I ask why you

implemented their policy? I do not think Labour had the first intention

of implementing that policy. It does not matter. Every measure we have

taken to get the deficit under control was opposed by the Labour

Party, every measure. The fact we have got it down from a peak of 10%

to 3% is an incredible achievement. I mean by difficult circumstances

the turbulence in the eurozone. We have had an election since the

turbulence in the eurozone and elected you on the basis of a

manifesto and criticisms you made of Ed Miliband and you have implemented

the Ed Miliband fiscal strategy. At the time many said your fiscal plans

lacked credibility and you said trust us, we can do it. We have it

from the IFS that you couldn't and you delivered the Ed Miliband plan.

Public spending in real terms has been constant at... It has increased

and you said you would reduce it. Your chart showed it down to 38% of

GDP and it has been constant around 760 billion a year. You are quoting

departmental expenditure limits. It would be ridiculous for voters to

listen to what you have to say about Labour spending and tax plans, given

what you said last time will stop we have reduced Labour's deficit. You

keep repeating. I am saying what happened at the last election is you

criticised Ed Miliband's plans and then deliver them. Why would we

believe you if you make new criticisms because you might

implement those. Going back to 2010 we hope to eliminate the deficit by

2015. You are right, it has taken longer will stop it is heading in

the right direction. Every measure we have taken the Labour Party have

a pose. Only one party is fighting this with credibility and it is the

Conservative Party. I spent time with Chris Philp because those

issues come out of what the IFS said today. Does the deficit need

attention? It is higher than the historical average. Should getting

the deficit down PA goal of the next government? First-day correction,

the deficit was not an average ten, 11% under Labour. Governments around

the world after the crisis saved the capitalist system, with a stimulus

that costs money. You are picking up a number during a year after the

crisis. It was one year when governments saved the capitalist

system. Deficits matter but what matters is what you are spending on.

The figures you showed our telling. Italy's deficit today is lower than

the UK deficit. Italy's deficit has been lower than Germany's the last

20 years. What matters is how you are growing. What matters and what

both parties should be talking about and are not, is the big elephant in

the room, the source of growth in this country continues to be private

debt, consumption led growth, not investment led growth. The issue of

private debt to disposable income is back at record levels since before

the crisis. What would your fiscal target be? 4% of GDP, 3%? You are

obsessing. If the numbers are always going to be there. Did she learn

anything from the Excel sheet problem when they obsess on this

terrible number, when it went over 90, the debt to GDP, that was found

to be irrelevant. It does not tell us much. I get from what you are

saying that the kind of spending... Next question. Is spending more on

police and welfare and more on all the things we know the Labour Party

would like to spend more on, is that the kind of spending that gives you

long-term growth? You need long-term growth, you want a plan for the

country. Whether it is Germany's energy policy, not just capital

expenditure, innovation, infrastructure, it is a type of

spend you could call consumption, trying to change demand. Norway, why

are 30% of Tesla cars sold in Norway? They focus on a particular

consumption. This dilemma, should we spend on nurses or infrastructure...

? People are worried if you say it is a false question. The data shows

it is a false question. Weak countries have low debt to GDP ratio

is, what does that tell you? Do you think in this campaign it will be an

issue? Do you think this election campaign, we will talk about Brexit

in Europe? It will be an issue because the Labour Party are making

promises that cost a lot of money and they have no idea how to pay for

it whereas the Conservatives will be responsible. The more irresponsible

promises we hear from Labour to be paid for by our children. Economic

policy has reduced how much we are spending on education. Why are

headteachers all over the country protesting? Are they foolish? Let's

not argue about it, we know it is going down. Project to the tea is

lacking. The increase in real incomes has gone to over

60-year-olds. We have an increasingly financial economy,

personal debt to disposable income is back to record levels. How can

you call that achievement? We need to leave it there.

Well, back to the issue that is dominating the campaign - Brexit.

Jean-Claude Juncker has tried to do to Theresa May,

what Nick Ferrari did to Diane Abbott.

He appeared to try to show that she has no grasp of the complex

Certainly, weekend leaks about an awkward discussion at No 10

last Wednesday have shown how hostile the mood might become.

Politically all these headlines about them getting together and

saying the UK is deluded. Cabinet ministers believe this will play

nicely put them in the general election. One of them said this

shows the Germans want to be nasty to us. So we will say to the British

people do you want as Jeremy Corbyn dealing with this. They mentioned

the Germans because they believe that the nation 's German chief of

staff to the European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker was

behind this briefing in the German press. And today Theresa May court

Jean-Claude Juncker on the spot and told the BBC, do not forget I can be

a bloody difficult woman. The irony is that was the language point last

year by Kenneth Clarke who of course was a big pro-European Tories and

the only Tory MP to vote against the triggering of Article 50. So a

political dimension to this. Are we really learning anything about the

Brexit process and how hard it is going to be? Well in the medium to

longer term there are nervous on the Tory side. One senior Tory said this

showed these negotiations are going to be very, very tough. Amongst

ministers, opinions are divided. I spoke to one minister who said he

feared this account at the dinner showed they are grand delusions

within his own government and he cited the apparent remarks by David

Davies the Brexit secretary at this dinner saying if there is no deal

and Britain crashes out, we will not with a penny. This minister said

that would inflict enormous reputational damage on the UK. Other

ministers say these are predictable skirmishing is from well-known

European federalist Jean-Claude Juncker. Well, someone with

experience of this is with me now. With me in the studio

is Yanis Varoufakis, former Greek Finance Minister

who resigned back in 2015 He's now written a book

about the whole experience, Are you surprised when you read

these briefings going on about the Brexit dinner? Absolutely not, this

is the way in which Brussels in piece negotiations. What they will

be doing for the next couple of years is pushing London towards a

defensive stance through leaks, distortions, and strategy of making

Theresa May fight for her right to negotiate. She will be negotiating

on her right and opportunity to negotiate. There will be no real

negotiations. You famously recorded some of your Eurogroup meetings

because the briefings where, you wanted to make sure the briefings

were accurate at what you have heard in the meeting. Nothing strange

about that, I had to report to Parliament, to my Prime Minister and

cabinet. They were distortion? There were no briefings. But the main

issue as far as I was concerned, I was engaged in ten are long

negotiations and then would have to go to my Parliament and report on

what happened. After ten long strenuous hours the human mind slips

and suddenly becomes hazy. So not having minutes for this is the

opposite of a democratic and transparent process. Do you think

Brexit -- Brexit is going to work out for the UK? You were against it

at the time of the referendum. I was against it and my great concern for

both the European Union and the UK is that our leaders, London and

Brussels, are locked in, a ranking of preferences, which produces a bad

outcome for everyone. Their power, Theresa May and Jean-Claude Juncker,

Angela Merkel, is inversely proportional to the mutual advantage

we can get from it. What is driving the deep establishment, the European

establishment you're referred to, these are not evil people, that is

not your case. Everyone is trying to do their best, it is like watching

King Lear and you wonder how can these smart people be so deluded,

the characters in the tragedy. They are playing their role and what they

think they need to do in this situation. Jean-Claude Juncker and

the powers that be in Brussels, the greatest nightmare is a mutually

advantageous agreement with the UK because in their mind it would

encourage others to demand stuff and possibly get out of the EU. On the

other hand Theresa May, she is locked in to this inanity of putting

the end of freedom of movement above everything else. Above the interests

of British industry, agriculture, universities. So this is a political

failure of an immense degree. Politics these days, where are you

on the liberal establishment because it is the most persecuted group at

the moment, it has not had a great couple of years. In many respects

you are talking about the liberal establishment and deep establishment

as the same thing. They are two extent. These days they resemble a

person was killed his parents and is pleading for leniency at the Court

on the grounds that he is an awesome. They have been extremely

authoritarian in the way they have dealt with us and are now dealing

with Theresa May. They have been extremely authoritarian and imposing

Lily economics. The idea that you take the largest loan in human

history and give it to the most bankrupt state in Europe is Lily

economics. And now they are in retreat, they are complaining about

the alternative facts, distortions and leaks and the Lily economics.

The deal back in the UK general election? Jeremy Corbyn for sure,

I'm a leftist. But you are a bit of a fan of Emmanuel Macron in France.

In the case of the UK I think is madness that the Labour Party is

standing and putting up a candidate in places like Brighton against

Caroline Lucas because of the sectarianism of the Progressive

front. I wish there was a nuanced Progressive Alliance in the UK. But

in France you're right, I'm a leftist, what a left doing in 2002

when we had the ten senior pitted against Jacques Chirac, we all went

behind Jacques Chirac. He admired Thatcher, he was a Conservative, not

at all a friend of the left and yet the left used to understand that

binding together with liberals and even neoliberals against the

fascists are racist, ultrabright, was a absolute duty. Why have we

changed that today? Because many of his voters are going to go because

they're anti-globalisation. I am anti-globalisation but above

everything else I am anti-racists. And antifascist. And we should see

eye to eye. Macron is infinitely better by the way Ben Jacques Chirac

was. He's the only minister I met during my tenure who understood the

problems of Lily economics in Europe and tried to help Greece not to

crash. Thank you very much. There is a contrast between the Tory

and Labour campaigns, in that Theresa May is ahead

of her party in the poll ratings, while Jeremy Corbyn

is below his party. Now, one of the consequent

weirdnesses about this campaign is that many Labour candidates

are trying to distance Meanwhile, many Labour activists,

of course, are enthusiastic about him and are campaigning hard

in his name as well as Labour's. The Corbyn supporting

group Momentum, is out So is there sometimes a dissonance

between the line taken by the candidate and those

who come to campaign? James Clayton has been

to Luton South to see how the Labour Luton is that rarest thing

in southern England. They have two MPs here,

that's a sixth of Labour MPs in the whole of the South

outside the capital. The local MP of Luton, Gavin Shukla,

has a majority of just under 6000 from the Tories and that puts him

in the cross hairs of So how are Labour MPs

like Gavin Shukla planning Normally in an election

what you would want to do is identify where your Labour vote

is and turn them out. In this election we are doing it

slightly differently. We are trying to identify

where the people that are wobbly about voting Labour

are and persuade them. There's always a bit

of both in both campaigns, but with maybe one in five Labour

voters with question marks about how they're

going to put the X in the box, that is the absolute

priority for us. The message that we are delivering

on the doorstep, you can have a great local MP,

but you do not want to give So you have got Theresa May,

don't give her a blank cheque. That sounds like you're not

particularly confident that you're Well look, the reality

is if the polls are at least in the ballpark, Labour is not

going to form the next government. It is quite a confusing

message, isn't it? Because you are basically

telling the electorate, we are the Labour Party,

we are going to lose. The closer it looks nationally,

arguably the harder it is to win some of these seats that we retain

because the question marks about leadership,

Brexit and other policy issues make it harder to make a case

about a straight choice You've got a lovely picture

of yourself and you've got But you do not have your great

leader Jeremy Corbyn on there. Well to be honest in 2010 I did not

have Gordon Brown and in 2015 Is that not more a reflection

about your leaders! The reality is a seat like Luton

is won by being a local candidate. You wouldn't offer up

Jeremy Corbyn as a pitch The reality is if you are a floating

voter, Labour supporter in the past with question marks now,

most of the concerns So for that reason, it is not that

kind of election for us. It has to be on our local records

and not the national picture. Hi, my name is Elaine,

I'm from the Labour Party. And I just want to know if you've

got a few minutes to talk In London the grassroots campaigning

group Momentum have been training local volunteers about how

to campaign effectively And rather than focus on local

issues, activists are teaching volunteers how to field

difficult national questions. Here Jeremy Corbyn is seen very much

as a positive on the doorstep. We think Jeremy represents

something really wonderful. It is a new kind of

politics, a kind politics. And we are very proud of that

and we think that that And so we want to take

that to the voters. But the local MPs do not

necessarily think that? There is a lot of things going

on in the party, as people know. But in this general election

we think Jeremy Corbyn is someone that people can believe

in and what he stands for and the politics

that he represents is something So we are proudly

taking that to people. Momentum is a mixed blessing

for many Labour MPs. With 150,000 registered supporters,

it is a potentially powerful Do you think that Momentum will be

useful in this campaign? I think Momentum could be hugely

useful if they can translate the numbers of supporters they have

into people coming through the door of this campaign office

and out on the doorstep. My membership has increased

by three or four times But my number of activists has not

increased really over So what we need is encouragement

to say that if you want Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister,

you have got to come out Labour's internal differences have

been well publicised But just as members have wildly

different ideas of what they want from Labour Party policy,

so too do they differ on how best to convince constituents to vote

Labour come June the 8th. If you are interested in seeing

a full list of candidates for Luton South they'll be

on the BBC News website If ever you needed evidence of how

serious a mental condition that anorexia can be,

the tragic case of 15-year-old She took her own life

by stepping in front of a train She had been diagnosed

with severe anorexia at age 13, had been sectioned and given

treatment, her weight sometimes But, against her and her family's

wishes, she was discharged She then killed herself

just days later. Today, a jury inquest found that

contributing to her death was a lack of support available for her family,

and an inadequate care plan for her. This is Pip's mum Marie speaking

outside the coroner's Anorexia has the highest mortality

rate attributed to any psychiatric illness,

with as many as 40% Too many of our children are dying

from this terrible illness. Effective treatment is needed more

quickly and if this had been available to our beautiful daughter

maybe she would still With me in the studio is Emma Woolf,

a writer and broadcaster who suffered from anorexia for 10

years - she wrote the memoir We know that if you starve yourself,

you endanger your life. Suicide by other means for people with

anorexia, how common is that? It is very common. As Pippa's mother

mentioned, anorexia has the highest mortality rate of any mental

illness, higher than schizophrenia, which is surprising. It is not just

people dying from a lack of food, it is that high suicide rate, because

life becomes so desperate and miserable. Food for everyone else is

the fuel for life and keeps your body going. As your brain and body

staff, everything falls apart. It feels so difficult and desperate to

keep going. What therapy is available? Particularly NHS therapy.

How easy is it if your child is suffering, a teenager? At the moment

we basically have basic medication, is, and talking therapy. Behavioural

therapy and counselling. What is the state of the art on what works? What

works is a combination of talking therapy, cognitive behavioural

support. And if people are desperately underweight and need

medical help they will have feeding. What I hear anecdotally from

thousands of younger readers is that there are long waiting lists for

help. As the mother said, there is not the help people need. Often it

is rationed. To tell someone with anorexia who is losing weight, you

are not thin enough the treatment is the most dangerous thing you can do.

You are over it now? I am now, but it took a very long time and I don't

think any of these treatments, it is not a magic with it. It took ten

years of trying and failing and trying and failing again and it was

a gradual process. There was nothing when you said you went to this

person with this idea? Everybody wants a breakthrough, but it is

about challenging yourself each time, gaining weight, losing it

again, gaining weight, trying foods that scare you and realising having

a slice of toast will not make you fat. These ridiculous fears, that is

the thing, it does not make sense. It is the most inexplicable... For

someone without anorexia to understand the mindset is difficult.

You see a starving person and think, how can you not eat? It does not

make sense and it does not make sense when you are in the midst of

it. You cannot understand why you can't eat, but you can't. Research

has shown us it is about the brain, there are conditions within the

brain. It is a brain disease, not a lifestyle choice. It is important to

understand people are not making a choice. Thanks very much.

Who knew we needed an election artist?

But we do have one, appointed by the Speaker's Advisory

Who better to serve in that role than Cornelia Parker?

An artist famous for grand installations, provocative

performances pieces and a fair dose of wit, she's already

begun an election-themed Instagram account.

One could attempt any number of election puns out

of her previous works, like Cold Dark Matter, or The Maybe.

But rather than me do that, we left it to our culture editor

I think the House of Commons is down here.

There's a reason they usually have a man with a big black

conceptual artist and you never know where her professional curiosity

I think I might just take a picture over here.

I'm hoping this is where Theresa May sits.

I am just glad Newsnight was on hand to

preserve the modesty of the Mother of Parliaments.

I wonder if she sits across the crease.

I thought we were obsessed with their seats on this

I love all the creases on it which is made

by politicians' bottoms, not their minds.

I once photographed Freud's seat. His actual seat he sat in. His

consulting chair. I liked the marks were made by Freud subconsciously. I

am still getting over the shock of becoming the election artist. It was

a snap election and they made a snap decision about which artist. How

does it feel? OK, I did not waste too much time saying yes because I

thought if I thought about it too long I would not do it. I am glad I

did. This might be one for Instagram. I am new to Instagram, it

is my first social media. With the current Speaker, we might see where

their heels are banking against... Perhaps that is unkind. Another

political abstracts. It is interesting, the buttons. I wonder

what they do. Is there a panic button? An ejector seat. I would

like to think so. In a nonpartisan way an ejector seat for the speaker

to use. Like the big red chair on Graham Norton. Do you have strong

political leanings in any direction? I am not so much party political but

I feel I am a very concerned citizen because there is so much happening

in the world. I have a 15-year-old and I am much more politically

attuned, especially about things like climate change, NHS, education,

particularly, so there are issues. Brexit seems to be slumping a bit.

You do like a dimpled seat. I hope I am not fixated on bottoms. You were

the one who consulted Doctor Freud. What Freud would say about this I

don't know. Nice. Apart from her Instagram feed, Cornelia Parker says

she is still considering what other works she might produce. She does

not want to be pigeonholed. Diane Abbott, she is number one. I should

stress this is the artist's own idea. Why did that appealed to you?

I saw a gap under her heel and thought, what could go in that gap?

Political artist trodden on by former PM. Stephen Smith with

Cornelia Parker. Just time for one newspaper, the Financial Times. EU

raises UK Brexit build to 100 billion euros. Previously it had

been 60 billion. We leave you with Colin Jackson

breaking the 60 metre indoor hurdles world record from 1994 -

his record still stands today. But, it's under threat -

a new proposal by European Athletics would cancel all world records set

before 2005 because they don't Colin Jackson has described

the proposals as "ludicrous", So, we thought we'd give you another

chance to enjoy this race COMMENTATOR: And this

time they are away. Jarrett is only a stride behind him,

but Jackson pulling away Greg Foster's mark of

1987 has been toppled. 21 degrees in the Highland Scotland

today. Just turn off the North Sea coast. A lot of sunshine in

Scotland, Northern Ireland, northern counties of northern England but for

the rest, cloud increasing. A bright sky in the afternoon in Northern

Ireland. Highland Scotland perhaps not quite as warm as today but the

breeze coming in from the North Sea makes all the difference. It is

always better when you see sunshine. In the Midlands, and south-east

England, it looks like a cloudy afternoon and for some patchy rain.

12 degrees in London, feeling cooler in the breeze. Cloud increasing in

the south-west England and much of Wales. For some in northern England,

cloudy in the afternoon but sunny the further north you go. Northern

England, Northern Ireland and northern Scotland going into

Thursday and Friday seeing the best of the sunshine. Further south, more

cloud around and time threatening showers. They will not amount to

much. This is the picture on Thursday. Showers in England and

Wales. Northern England, Scotland and Northern Ireland, getting