03/05/2017 Newsnight

Has our relationship with the EU come to this?

Britain's negotiating position in Europe has been misrepresented.

Threats against Britain have been issued by European politicians timed

to affect the result of the general election.

Are things are being said in the heat of an election, that may

One doesn't know whether to laugh or cry.

Both sides think then other is to blame,

We'll ask the Irish Foreign Minister if the EU

And we'll ask whether the UK should have anticipated the apparent

Also tonight, the French election gets nasty

Also tonight, the French election gets nasty in a head to head debate.

Mr Macron has pulled off his mask. You have used arguments which are

shameful and reveal a cold mind of the banker you have always been.

And we'll hear from the legendary US conservative shock jock Glenn Beck.

Why does he now regret laying the ground for

Well, you can argue about who started it,

but there has been a decided deterioration in the government's

relationship with the EU in the last few days.

The Prime Minister thinks there are people in Brussels -

not from all the other member states but Brussels itself -

who've been stirring things up, and in the process,

If that was the case, the effect has probably been to help her.

But for the Europeans, the point is simply that they have

now agreed their shared negotiating position - that was over the weekend

- and if it appears tough well, that's not their doing,

You might say this is all just the dynamics of nationalism -

one side asserts itself, then so does the other.

But has it poisoned the atmosphere for the real

We'll hear EU and UK perspectives, but first here's Nick Watt.

# Don't know why there's no sun up in the sky, Stormy weather... The

outlook for Theresa May in this election has so far been pretty

benign but an ill wind Lewin from the continent today, prompting

another occasion for Harold Wilson's quip, events, dear boy. This follows

a damaging leak from Brussels and an FT report demanding the UK pays a

Brexit bill of upwards of 100 billion euros. Threats against

Britain have been issued by EU politicians and officials. All of

these acts have been deliberately timed to affect the result of the

general election that will take place on the 8th of June. Theresa

May's strongly worded intervention highlights her belief that the

strongly worded rhetoric from Brussels means and eight to fight

Britain's corner. Labour and the Liberal Democrats condemned her

language but there was agreement that the proposed Brexit bill was

far too high. Until now, the EU has suggested the UK pays around 60

billion euros. That is calculated by saying the UK should be responsible

for a third of its share of the EU budget up to the end of 2020, that

it needs to pay its share of the EU's deficit and pension

liabilities, but all of that will be reduced when the UK's share of EU

acids is taken into account. Today's higher figure was calculated after

France and Poland took the lead in saying Britain should pay all of its

share of the EU budget until December 2020, and it should not

have any share of the EU's assets. This was too high even for one

Britain's most passionate pro-Europeans. Yes, the risk is

particularly in these early stages where one is staking out positions,

and not least in reaction perhaps to the re-kind of belligerent combat of

language which has been emanating from the British government and the

British Brexit press and so on for month after month after month. But

the EU 27 starts adopting its own less than reasonable positions. The

former Deputy Prime Minister believes the EU is newly emboldened

after the far right Geert Wilders was defeated in the Dutch election

and finds that Emmanuel Macron may win the French presidential

election. The risk is the rest of the EU assumed that they're back to

business as usual in terms of the development of the European Union,

they are out of the woods, they have dodged the bullet as far as populism

is concerned and all will be well. There is always a danger on both

sides that both sides overstate their relative strength to each

other. The worst bust up so far dates back to Number Ten dinner last

week when Theresa May hosted the European Commission President

Jean-Claude Juncker. Downing Street believed his aides leaked details to

undermine the UK. Were going to have to get used this sort of language

come out from Brussels. Brussels does not negotiate in secret, it

negotiates publicly. There will be a lot of rhetoric, a great deal of hot

air, and if we are going to achieve our goals, the best thing the

government can do is largely ignore Mr Pitt and focus on negotiations

going. -- largely ignore it. One can equally say this is not in our

interests either. I can understand why the Prime Minister is critical

of it. It serves no purpose whatsoever. The EU's chief

negotiator, Michel Barnier, also attended the dinner. The real deals

are always done behind-the-scenes. We know we have to get the French

election out of the way, we know we have to get the German election out

of the way. In Germany you have Chancellor Shilts or Chancellor

Merkel. I think economic imperative will always prevail and that will be

an important thing, not kind of after-dinner leak. Theresa May will

be hoping for brighter climbs on the campaign trail, after being granted

her a regional election wish, that voters should have Brexit uppermost

in their minds. The past because she in this most controlling of Prime

Minister 's will not be in charge of that capricious force, events.

Nick what there. A lot seems to have happened since that dinner.

I spoke to the Irish Foreign Minister Charles Flanagan in Dublin.

I asked him whether the leaking of details from a Downing Street

dinner that took place between Theresa May,

David Davis and Jean-Claude Juncker could be interpreted as an attempt

to interfere in the British election campaign.

I wouldn't like to see any undue interference in any sovereign

election campaign in any part of the European Union.

Maybe unfortunately I wasn't at the dinner.

So I can't really comment on what took place or otherwise.

But what I will say is that the reports afterwards

from both sides seemed to suggest that a meeting took

place in an atmosphere of certain cordiality.

But as soon as the British election is over, and certainly not before

then because people will be actively campaigning, but as soon

as the election is over it's expected that negotiations proper

will commence, along the lines of the parameters set down

The 100 billion euro bill for leaving the EU, is that real?

Well, you can talk about the 100 billion,

I think we need to agree early on the principle

of the liabilities and, of course there is going to be a liability.

There have been commitments already entered into by all members

I think there was a big issue over the actual price,

because the commission had suggested the principles that got you

there would add up to about 60 billion.

And then the French and the Poles came in with an alternative way

of measuring it that took it up to 100 billion.

Now that may seem like quite a lot of money to people,

Which is the right way, the Commission way,

I accept that the figures that have been mentioned and proposed

I acknowledge that perhaps some people in the UK have been taken

by surprise at the amount of money, but there was always going to be

an element of liability in regard to funds already committed.

I think early on in the negotiations, and this

is what Commissioner Michel Barnier was saying, early on in

negotiations, we need to work out A, the manner in which the sum will be

And then, of course, how this is going to be paid over

Let me ask you this, is it reasonable for the British not

to get a share of the EU's assets, netted off the share

Because the suggestion has been that the British

All these are issues that, with respect, will be on the agenda

for an early meeting of the negotiating team.

Of course there are assets and of course it is important to

acknowledge that the European Union has benefited greatly

by the influence and the involvement of the United Kingdom over

I am sorry, I am not talking about all of that, I am talking

If we have a share of the liabilities, shouldn't a share

Of course, and I'm satisfied that will be factored in

ECJ, the European Court jurisdiction over EU citizens in the UK.

So the British are saying we are happy to keep

the EU citizens here, that is not a problem.

Then being told, actually the European Court must have

jurisdiction over the rights of those citizens and

Well, there will be a transition period.

Obviously, this is a very complex legal and political issue

that is going to take quite some time to unravel.

I am a solicitor, I know there is no such thing as an easy divorce.

And then once the divorce terms are agreed we have then to sit down

and negotiate the future relationship between

the United Kingdom and the European Union.

There has been a lot of rhetoric over the past number of days

but I have spoken to each and every one of my 26 EU foreign

ministerial colleagues over the past number of months.

At no stage have I detect did any intent or any disposition or any

wish or desire on the part of the European Union to exact

What we're talking about is how to deal with the issue of

the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union after 44

I heard what the British Prime Minister has said,

that no deal is better than a bad deal.

I am not sure I agree with that because no deal will amount

to a very challenging situation which, in my opinion,

will not only be bad for the UK, but will be bad for Ireland

and will also be bad for the entire European Union.

It is upon the negotiating parties to ensure that we do get a deal

and a deal that will ultimately result in as close as

possible a relationship between the United Kingdom

and the European Union, albeit from outside the single market.

Charles Flanagan there, the Irish Foreign Minister.

Let's discuss now with Tory MEP and leading

With me here is Radoslav Sikorski, the former Polish Foreign Minister.

We know Brexit is causing ructions. What has got asked to this point as

opposed to where we were two weeks ago, who's to blame? Leaks are not

helpful, but equally, an electioneering atmosphere heightens

the motions. I don't think serious governments respond to newspaper

articles. We need serious people to discuss serious issues because

otherwise this could be the beginning of a train wreck. Is

Theresa May's government and Boris Johnson and David Davis, are they a

serious government? What was leaked and Theresa May has confirmed... She

hasn't really... In effect. We learned nothing else that we have

heard from British politicians on the record. I think what the EU

delegation was shocked by was when they realised this wasn't

propaganda, that they really believed in their own propaganda,

and they tried to signal, look, you need to become more realistic. Of

course, in the terms of the British election campaign, it makes sense to

make the EU the enemy. But of course, that is a very dangerous

game. Daniel Hannan, it is a dangerous game, isn't it? If Theresa

May wins the election she will have to deal with these people and been

negotiating with them? I expect that to be a cordial

negotiation. It is what people say on the record that matters. Leaks

you cannot be held to, but you have to think about what you say on paper

and if you look at the EU formal position, the guidelines agreed in

the short meeting, they are not so far off what the British Government

is pushing for. We agree there should be a free trade agreement and

we agree on military and security. We agree on not being a hardboard

and in either -- a hard order in Ireland. It does not need to be a

process that spins out of control but it was fortunate to have this

leak and story about the money. Was Theresa May right to ramp it up by

saying they are interfering in the election, reminiscent of claims

about Putin and Donald Trump. This was not a situation of her making.

She has this supposedly private dinner and finds herself being

traduced in an outrageous way in a foreign newspaper and we get this

100 billion, a suspiciously round figure, you might say it has been

plucked out of the air for theatrical effects. It would be

bizarre for her not to say this reminds us of the magnitude of the

choice in front of the country. Do you want me in our corner or would

you rather have Jeremy Corbyn batting for Britain in these talks?

Do you think the EU has been blameless on this? You accept the

leak is not good and inner sense provoked the latest scuffles. It was

60 billion and it seems to have gone up to 100 billion. The EU is a ?15

trillion economy. 60, 100 billion, is not... It is quite a lot to us.

Ten of that is liabilities of British bureaucrats' pensions. Why

should Continental taxpayers pay for that? This is an outcome of a budget

in whose negotiation written participated. I think the figure

could be cut significantly if Britain gets an extension on the

negotiations because then some of the liabilities will be covered. I

think there are ways of handling it. There needs to be trust and goodwill

on both sides. Otherwise we will have a really mean train wreck.

Everybody agrees there needs to be goodwill. Daniel Hannan, if the bill

is 100 billion, whatever it is, is it worth Britain paying the bill to

get a deal, or would you say no deal is better than a deal that involves

tens of billions? It is a statement of the obvious that no deal is

better than a bad deal. If the bill were a trillion, everybody would

accept, except Nick Clegg. I think the only fair way of resolving the

financial issue is to ask an independent tribunal, an

international court or other arbitrator, to look at the assets

and liabilities and both sides to agree to abide by the outcome which

will take the issue off the table. Alan legal obligation is probably

smaller but we should be prepared to act in a spirit of goodwill and

these are important friends and allies. I will take from that that

paying quite a bit of money is part of that. But not 100 billion.

The general election maybe preoccupying us,

but large parts of the country get to vote tomorrow.

There are lots of local elections around Britain -

among others, county council elections in England,

And there will also be elections for six metro mayors

around England - a new construct,

and a potentially quite important one - a George Osborne legacy.

These are seen as the big names that will develop city regions

One of the hardest fought of those contests is for

Katie Razall has been there to see how that battle is playing out.

It is the only manufacturer of litmus test paper in the UK and is

based just outside Dudley. Here they produce the testing papers used in

school chemistry and laboratories across Britain and beyond. With

voter apathy an issue, will workers here vote in the region's first

mayor? I don't think one person can make a massive change. It is an

important step for us, something we cannot take light-heartedly. It

depends what they stand for as to whether I will vote. You only have a

day or two to find out. That is enough time. With the West Midlands

mayoral election is seen as a litmus test for what might happen on June

the 8th, where better than Johnson test papers to test out whether this

significant political battle ground might change from Tory to Labour

come the general election. The Conservative candidates had a

heftier war chest at his disposal, spending up to 1 million before

election rules kicked in. With six contests across England, the former

John Lewis managing director is seen as the Tories' best hope of

clinching a job and on Labour territory it would bring predictions

of a LAN side in June. The fact we think it is all to play for shows

how far we have come in this campaign. You cannot run it entirely

as a business but there are transferable skills and the most

important thing is to build a team of leaders. This is about the group

of people who would lead and I have shown an ability to bring people

together and work as a team. The new mayor will oversee 28 Parliamentary

constituencies. 2 million residents vote for a mayor who will have a

budget of 36.5 million a year, less than 1% of the turnover Andy Street

presided over at John Lewis. It is not conservative blue but Labour

read that appears to have the advantage in this region. Labour

have an active campaign based to mobilise. In this heavily Brexit

voting area, Sion Simon has come up with a slogan that sums up what he

believes the mayor can do. He wants to keep the campaign locally

focused. Take back control, I have heard that before. I have made this

argument for seven years. Standing down from the Commons in 2010 to

campaign said mayoral devolution in the West Midlands and taking back

control is about us here being in charge of our destiny, running our

own services, being in charge of our own money. Don't underestimate how

much of the shark the election of a Conservative mayor will be to the

Labour establishment that runs so much of this region. With just over

a month to the general election it would allow the Conservatives to

claim they have broken down the red wall in one of Labour's heartlands,

and perhaps can become a party of more than the English shires and

suburbs. In June, a uniform swing of 5% to the Conservatives would see

six Labour seats in this region and. 10%, as Tony Blair experienced, five

more would become conservative. If Labour does better than predicted, a

uniform 5% swing would deliver them one conservative seat, 10% swing,

three. Voters in the region's first mayoral contests get two votes, a

first choice and second preference if that candidate is eliminated,

which makes this battle interesting to outside eyes, because it will

give an insight into where supporters of the smaller parties

might transfer allegiance. Whether Ukip voters prefer Labour or the

Tories for example. Is there much of a market for a Liberal Democrat

offer? People are unhappy with the cuts the Conservative government has

implemented in this region and I am picking up discontent among Labour

voters. I do not think it is as clear as you suggest. It is an open

situation. Ukip, has the party lost its appeal since the referendum? I

do not have trouble convincing people there is a purpose for Ukip.

Sometimes they say what is the point of Ukip? But when you explain Brexit

is a long way away and there are a lot of negotiations to do. We want

to be a mainstream party and there is a place for something that is not

Labour or Conservative. The Green Party candidate hopes to benefit

with widespread dissatisfaction. A lot of people vote green because

they are fed up with the big three. It is about saying the current plans

have not worked. This region voted Brexit because they said we do not

feel we have power over our lives and want to try something new. The

Communist Party candidate was clear where his second preference votes

might go, but his party is not putting up candidates in June

because they liked Jeremy Corbyn's Labour so much. The polls suggest we

will do well in the first round and then there will be the elimination

of the smaller parties and then a fight between Tory and Labour and

the majority of people will be voting for me will vote for Labour

and I am in favour of that. Election forecasting is inexact but after

tomorrow we will be clear on what colours may emerge.

To the other election now - our third of the evening.

It was fight night - the big televised debate

between the two candidates, the liberal internationalist,

Emmanuel Macron, and the far right populist, Marine Le Pen.

This was a huge test for Macron in particular,

because some of his own supporters wondered whether the populist case

always tends to sound more immediately gratifying than the

liberal one, whatever the long term merits of the argument.

TRANSLATION: I am telling you your plan is hidden. You talked about

gifts. But giving money back. To give back money. To the French, that

is a gift? Who else would you like to give it to? When you lower taxes,

if you have not also lowered spending, all listening understand.

You are not lowering spending. You will either increase the deficit and

depend on financial markets or increased taxes during your

presidency but you are not saying so, or increase the debt and at that

moment our children will lose out and I do not want anything to do

with those solutions. Those exchanges do not work in voice-over.

Gabriel, what did you take out of it?

It was pretty scrappy and the exchange indicative of a lot of it.

Emmanuel Macron on top of his brief throwing out facts and figures and

policies and Marine Le Pen, less detail and fewer policies, but

coming back with stinging one-liners. You just want to give

gifts to big corporations. They will play well with some people who feel

let down by the status quo. It was an angry exchange. Talking over each

other. The moderators lost control, pleading with them to let the others

speak. It was messy. Macron accused Le Pen of lying and talking rubbish.

He must have said mad am Le Pen 100 times. How start the choices to the

voters. It was not two politicians vying for the centre ground but two

politicians with starkly different visions. Marine Le Pen populist,

even nationalistic. Emmanuel Macron internationalist, globalist and

liberal. I suppose the crux is did the debate, probably the biggest

single event of the campaign, did it move the dial enough to change the

story of the polls, which is Macron is probably 60%, Le Pen about 40.

Roughly that. 59, 40 one. If as a French photo you were looking for

somebody who looks presidential and in command of their brief, who looks

competent, like they may be comfortable from day one on the job,

they might go for Macron, but they probably have made up their minds

already to vote for him. The question is who won the debate to

present themselves as a candidate of change? Neither comes from an

established party. Where Le Pen did well was pushing back on Macron's

presentation of himself as somebody who can shake things up. She came

out with the problems France is facing and put them at the door of

Emmanuel Macron. Whether that is enough to shift voters into how

camp, or keep them away from the polls, we will see on Sunday.

Well, the US knows a lot about the appeal of arguments based

Not just from President Trump, but also the tradition of shock

jocks, with strong views and big audiences.

In that category is Glenn Beck, one of the giants -

having served on Fox TV, his own radio and TV programmes.

He's a radical conservative Mormon, with idiosyncratic views.

Now here's the thing - Glenn Beck, unlike some

This is him talking about President Obama. He has exposed himself as a

guy with a deep-seated hatred for white people, the white culture, I

don't know what it is. You cannot say he does not like white people.

70% of the people we see everyday is white. I am not saying he does not

like white people. I say he has a problem. I believe he is a racist.

Now here's the thing - Glenn Beck, unlike some

of his conservative shock jock counterparts,

Beck has even compared him to Hitler.

A sign of some conservative confusion over how

Perhaps these kinds of wrinkles come with a reconfiguration

of old political divides into new ones.

A little earlier, I spoke to Glenn Beck about his current

political leanings, and his regrets of the past.

Well, I had such a low bar for him that it's, you know,

I think he's doing fine for what he was saying

I'm glad he's not getting done some of the stuff that he wanted to do.

I'm gravely concerned about his attack on the press,

his constant, relentless attack on the press, even though

part of me feels good that they are getting their head

But this isn't going to go anywhere, except bad places.

The divide is getting worse and worse in America and I don't

think it's based on anything that resembles facts or principles.

Why do you think he appeals to the public?

Were they gullible, were they stupid?

I think you can relate to it with Brexit.

I think people are tired of feeling though they're being pushed around,

feeling as though somebody else that is disconnected from them

They are tired of the playing by the rules and then

having the banks win, having the people in

Washington or in London, who you know are corrupt,

I think people are just tired of that.

Do you think Trump or other populists, take Marine Le Pen

in France, do you think they are creating the anger

among the public, or are they reflecting and anger?

To speak about Donald Trump, I think he recognised the anger

and is playing into the anger and then magnifying it.

Where a truly great leader sees anger and then says,

let's channel this into something positive and move in a different

direction, instead we are seeing people channel it into even more

anger and populism and nationalism, which, as Europe knows,

Let's talk about you, because you're sitting here,

you're sounding like a very measured guy and you've got your

criticisms of Trump and those who would seek to divide.

I mean, where have you been for the last 20 years?

You've been doing exactly that stuff.

You've been making comments about Mexicans.

You said Mexico is a country being overtaken by lawbreakers

You have written a book called It Is About Islam.

and knew what I know now, I would do it differently.

Knowing what I knew then, I didn't understand it and I think

that what is happening, at least in America with the press,

This is why I keep saying to people like Samantha Bee

and others here in America - Stephen Colbert - is stop.

You are assuming that half of the country is,

you know, either stupid, or they are going...

If I break it for these, they are going to get it

So, right now, the left has switched places in America and the media

We are all involved, whether we are on Facebook,

or we are on a national broadcast, we are all making the same mistake

to one degree or another, and I, unfortunately,

One thing, and in your career is negativism because you basically

You are a defender of the Constitution.

Indeed Obama was a constitutionally elected president, and yet you do

spend your whole time pulling them down.

Well, OK, first of all, I am a political commentator in America,

Unfortunately, that's what people pay to hear me talk about.

Beyond that, I am not calling for them to be toppled or anything.

I respect the office of the President, I respect

I just feel what each of them are doing is an affront

The novelist and screenwriter Hanif Kureishi burst onto the scene

30 years ago with an Oscar nomination for his debut film,

Until then, you would never have believed a film about a laundrette

Well, Kureishi is now in his 60s, but as the one-time enfant terrible

of Anglo-Asian letters, he shows little sign of mellowing.

His new novel, The Nothing, published tomorrow,

is about the sexual jealously of an ageing cuckold.

Now interestingly, the villain of the piece is based on a conman

who went to prison after swindling Kureishi out of his savings,

as he's been explaining to our culture editor Stephen Smith.

He's usually sweaty with anxiety and smelling of drink, if not pubs.

This overgrown schoolboy with his balding hair,

Some disaster involving his wallet, a train, a change of trousers

and perhaps a woman or two has inevitably befallen him

I dislike unsightly people when I don't pity them.

They are always at a disadvantage when it comes to entitlement.

If Eddie were good looking, we wouldn't be having this trouble.

Eddie is an unprincipled Soho chancer and the

third corner of a love triangle in Hanif Kureishi's

He is modelled on a real-life money man who cheated

The first person I rang up after I found out,

gone to my bank and found out my accounts had been emptied,

the first person I rang up was the man who did it.

And I've remember ringing him up and him expressing shock.

And I expressed shock and he came down.

Later on, when you look back, obviously you think you're

I spent quite a lot of time with him and I became

quite interested in him, as well as hating him.

So I found myself writing a story about a conman.

But one of the things that I noticed that's happened in the culture

recently is the criminals are not really any more on the margins.

That the criminality has moved, as it were, to the centre.

So after the financial crash of 2008, we began to realise

that the banks and the hedge funds and other financiers, and so on,

We took it for granted that the good things, equality,

feminism, antiracism, freedom for sexual minorities,

The good things would be good for everyone.

Nigel Farage and I come from the same place.

We're very, very similar in our background.

Indeed, lived in a little village called Downe,

just outside where I was born and brought up.

And the idea that we're going back to England

in the 1950s is a horrifying, narrowing and enervating idea.

I think there's been a real shift and I don't think people believe any

It's a tragedy, the collapse of the left.

And Corbyn is a tragedy, really, for the Labour Party,

And was a reaction to Blair and I think we all thought

it was a good time that we got someone really left wing in.

At the beginning, I thought Corbyn was a good idea.

And I think, like a lot of people, thought, at last, we were returning

I think we need a real rethink on the left

about what a progressive left in Britain and in Europe would mean.

I think Macron in France, actually, has been rather illuminating

Let's hope something similar could happen in the UK.

These have been themes of Kureishi's work since he won an Oscar nod 30

years ago for the screenplay of My Beautiful Launderette.

I want to do some work for a change, instead of all this hanging around.

He says racism has been getting worse and Muslims

Is medieval, is backward, hates gays and hates women

Millions, indeed a billion people have been captured

Don't you think most people, or a lot of people,

I mean, at least 7 million people voted for Marine Le Pen

and Marine Le Pen is a full on right-wing fascist

and comes from, as it were, a proper fascist background.

And during the Brexit campaign and so on,

and during the Trump election, we have seen a huge rise in racism.

And the establishment of this new paradigm of the Muslim,

People might be watching this saying we have a Mayor

You know, it's no longer exceptional to see minority MPs,

In a lot of ways, things have changed for the

There has been huge changes for the better,

Certainly far more, say, in Britain than in France,

where there is real separation, you feel, between the Muslim

population and these so-called elite, or metropolitan elite.

So Britain is exceptional in that sense.

But when you look at the rest of Europe, what's happening

in Hungary, in Poland and so on, it's very, very worrying to see

Kureishi's latest protagonist, an ageing film-maker,

recounts an unsparing black comedy of sexual jealousy and cuckoldry.

The only thing I regret are the occasions when I haven't

been as candid as I could have been, actually.

I mean, it's really important to speak.

It's really important to speak and to see where your words,

My books are getting a bit shorter because it is a bit of a huff

and puff to get from the beginning to the end, but also I feel more

She strokes and kisses me, her husband and baby.

This is as decent a way to die as any.

Everything has been said, except her name.

Zee, Zee, you forgot about me for a time,

Dying's not so bad, you should try it sometime.

Kirsty will be in this chair tomorrow. Good night.