03/05/2017 Newsnight


03/05/2017

With Evan Davis. The Brexit election, the local elections, the mayoral election and the French election. Plus Glenn Beck on the US election and Hanif Kureshi.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 03/05/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Has our relationship with the EU come to this?

:00:00.:00:14.

Britain's negotiating position in Europe has been misrepresented.

:00:15.:00:21.

Threats against Britain have been issued by European politicians timed

:00:22.:00:26.

to affect the result of the general election.

:00:27.:00:28.

Are things are being said in the heat of an election, that may

:00:29.:00:31.

One doesn't know whether to laugh or cry.

:00:32.:00:34.

Both sides think then other is to blame,

:00:35.:00:37.

We'll ask the Irish Foreign Minister if the EU

:00:38.:00:40.

And we'll ask whether the UK should have anticipated the apparent

:00:41.:00:45.

Also tonight, the French election gets nasty

:00:46.:00:53.

Also tonight, the French election gets nasty in a head to head debate.

:00:54.:01:00.

Mr Macron has pulled off his mask. You have used arguments which are

:01:01.:01:07.

shameful and reveal a cold mind of the banker you have always been.

:01:08.:01:11.

And we'll hear from the legendary US conservative shock jock Glenn Beck.

:01:12.:01:14.

Why does he now regret laying the ground for

:01:15.:01:16.

Well, you can argue about who started it,

:01:17.:01:25.

but there has been a decided deterioration in the government's

:01:26.:01:27.

relationship with the EU in the last few days.

:01:28.:01:30.

The Prime Minister thinks there are people in Brussels -

:01:31.:01:32.

not from all the other member states but Brussels itself -

:01:33.:01:35.

who've been stirring things up, and in the process,

:01:36.:01:37.

If that was the case, the effect has probably been to help her.

:01:38.:01:42.

But for the Europeans, the point is simply that they have

:01:43.:01:44.

now agreed their shared negotiating position - that was over the weekend

:01:45.:01:47.

- and if it appears tough well, that's not their doing,

:01:48.:01:50.

You might say this is all just the dynamics of nationalism -

:01:51.:01:56.

one side asserts itself, then so does the other.

:01:57.:01:58.

But has it poisoned the atmosphere for the real

:01:59.:02:00.

We'll hear EU and UK perspectives, but first here's Nick Watt.

:02:01.:02:21.

# Don't know why there's no sun up in the sky, Stormy weather... The

:02:22.:02:29.

outlook for Theresa May in this election has so far been pretty

:02:30.:02:33.

benign but an ill wind Lewin from the continent today, prompting

:02:34.:02:42.

another occasion for Harold Wilson's quip, events, dear boy. This follows

:02:43.:02:50.

a damaging leak from Brussels and an FT report demanding the UK pays a

:02:51.:02:56.

Brexit bill of upwards of 100 billion euros. Threats against

:02:57.:03:00.

Britain have been issued by EU politicians and officials. All of

:03:01.:03:03.

these acts have been deliberately timed to affect the result of the

:03:04.:03:06.

general election that will take place on the 8th of June. Theresa

:03:07.:03:13.

May's strongly worded intervention highlights her belief that the

:03:14.:03:17.

strongly worded rhetoric from Brussels means and eight to fight

:03:18.:03:24.

Britain's corner. Labour and the Liberal Democrats condemned her

:03:25.:03:27.

language but there was agreement that the proposed Brexit bill was

:03:28.:03:32.

far too high. Until now, the EU has suggested the UK pays around 60

:03:33.:03:37.

billion euros. That is calculated by saying the UK should be responsible

:03:38.:03:41.

for a third of its share of the EU budget up to the end of 2020, that

:03:42.:03:47.

it needs to pay its share of the EU's deficit and pension

:03:48.:03:50.

liabilities, but all of that will be reduced when the UK's share of EU

:03:51.:03:58.

acids is taken into account. Today's higher figure was calculated after

:03:59.:04:03.

France and Poland took the lead in saying Britain should pay all of its

:04:04.:04:07.

share of the EU budget until December 2020, and it should not

:04:08.:04:13.

have any share of the EU's assets. This was too high even for one

:04:14.:04:16.

Britain's most passionate pro-Europeans. Yes, the risk is

:04:17.:04:23.

particularly in these early stages where one is staking out positions,

:04:24.:04:27.

and not least in reaction perhaps to the re-kind of belligerent combat of

:04:28.:04:32.

language which has been emanating from the British government and the

:04:33.:04:38.

British Brexit press and so on for month after month after month. But

:04:39.:04:44.

the EU 27 starts adopting its own less than reasonable positions. The

:04:45.:04:49.

former Deputy Prime Minister believes the EU is newly emboldened

:04:50.:04:54.

after the far right Geert Wilders was defeated in the Dutch election

:04:55.:04:59.

and finds that Emmanuel Macron may win the French presidential

:05:00.:05:03.

election. The risk is the rest of the EU assumed that they're back to

:05:04.:05:09.

business as usual in terms of the development of the European Union,

:05:10.:05:12.

they are out of the woods, they have dodged the bullet as far as populism

:05:13.:05:17.

is concerned and all will be well. There is always a danger on both

:05:18.:05:20.

sides that both sides overstate their relative strength to each

:05:21.:05:25.

other. The worst bust up so far dates back to Number Ten dinner last

:05:26.:05:31.

week when Theresa May hosted the European Commission President

:05:32.:05:33.

Jean-Claude Juncker. Downing Street believed his aides leaked details to

:05:34.:05:40.

undermine the UK. Were going to have to get used this sort of language

:05:41.:05:46.

come out from Brussels. Brussels does not negotiate in secret, it

:05:47.:05:50.

negotiates publicly. There will be a lot of rhetoric, a great deal of hot

:05:51.:05:54.

air, and if we are going to achieve our goals, the best thing the

:05:55.:05:58.

government can do is largely ignore Mr Pitt and focus on negotiations

:05:59.:06:06.

going. -- largely ignore it. One can equally say this is not in our

:06:07.:06:11.

interests either. I can understand why the Prime Minister is critical

:06:12.:06:16.

of it. It serves no purpose whatsoever. The EU's chief

:06:17.:06:22.

negotiator, Michel Barnier, also attended the dinner. The real deals

:06:23.:06:29.

are always done behind-the-scenes. We know we have to get the French

:06:30.:06:33.

election out of the way, we know we have to get the German election out

:06:34.:06:38.

of the way. In Germany you have Chancellor Shilts or Chancellor

:06:39.:06:42.

Merkel. I think economic imperative will always prevail and that will be

:06:43.:06:47.

an important thing, not kind of after-dinner leak. Theresa May will

:06:48.:06:54.

be hoping for brighter climbs on the campaign trail, after being granted

:06:55.:06:58.

her a regional election wish, that voters should have Brexit uppermost

:06:59.:07:03.

in their minds. The past because she in this most controlling of Prime

:07:04.:07:08.

Minister 's will not be in charge of that capricious force, events.

:07:09.:07:15.

Nick what there. A lot seems to have happened since that dinner.

:07:16.:07:18.

I spoke to the Irish Foreign Minister Charles Flanagan in Dublin.

:07:19.:07:22.

I asked him whether the leaking of details from a Downing Street

:07:23.:07:25.

dinner that took place between Theresa May,

:07:26.:07:27.

David Davis and Jean-Claude Juncker could be interpreted as an attempt

:07:28.:07:29.

to interfere in the British election campaign.

:07:30.:07:31.

I wouldn't like to see any undue interference in any sovereign

:07:32.:07:34.

election campaign in any part of the European Union.

:07:35.:07:36.

Maybe unfortunately I wasn't at the dinner.

:07:37.:07:41.

So I can't really comment on what took place or otherwise.

:07:42.:07:44.

But what I will say is that the reports afterwards

:07:45.:07:46.

from both sides seemed to suggest that a meeting took

:07:47.:07:50.

place in an atmosphere of certain cordiality.

:07:51.:07:54.

But as soon as the British election is over, and certainly not before

:07:55.:08:01.

then because people will be actively campaigning, but as soon

:08:02.:08:03.

as the election is over it's expected that negotiations proper

:08:04.:08:06.

will commence, along the lines of the parameters set down

:08:07.:08:08.

The 100 billion euro bill for leaving the EU, is that real?

:08:09.:08:15.

Well, you can talk about the 100 billion,

:08:16.:08:18.

I think we need to agree early on the principle

:08:19.:08:29.

of the liabilities and, of course there is going to be a liability.

:08:30.:08:32.

There have been commitments already entered into by all members

:08:33.:08:35.

I think there was a big issue over the actual price,

:08:36.:08:43.

because the commission had suggested the principles that got you

:08:44.:08:45.

there would add up to about 60 billion.

:08:46.:08:47.

And then the French and the Poles came in with an alternative way

:08:48.:08:50.

of measuring it that took it up to 100 billion.

:08:51.:08:53.

Now that may seem like quite a lot of money to people,

:08:54.:08:56.

Which is the right way, the Commission way,

:08:57.:09:00.

I accept that the figures that have been mentioned and proposed

:09:01.:09:04.

I acknowledge that perhaps some people in the UK have been taken

:09:05.:09:08.

by surprise at the amount of money, but there was always going to be

:09:09.:09:11.

an element of liability in regard to funds already committed.

:09:12.:09:15.

I think early on in the negotiations, and this

:09:16.:09:17.

is what Commissioner Michel Barnier was saying, early on in

:09:18.:09:20.

negotiations, we need to work out A, the manner in which the sum will be

:09:21.:09:24.

And then, of course, how this is going to be paid over

:09:25.:09:31.

Let me ask you this, is it reasonable for the British not

:09:32.:09:35.

to get a share of the EU's assets, netted off the share

:09:36.:09:38.

Because the suggestion has been that the British

:09:39.:09:42.

All these are issues that, with respect, will be on the agenda

:09:43.:09:48.

for an early meeting of the negotiating team.

:09:49.:09:52.

Of course there are assets and of course it is important to

:09:53.:09:54.

acknowledge that the European Union has benefited greatly

:09:55.:09:56.

by the influence and the involvement of the United Kingdom over

:09:57.:09:59.

I am sorry, I am not talking about all of that, I am talking

:10:00.:10:06.

If we have a share of the liabilities, shouldn't a share

:10:07.:10:10.

Of course, and I'm satisfied that will be factored in

:10:11.:10:16.

ECJ, the European Court jurisdiction over EU citizens in the UK.

:10:17.:10:27.

So the British are saying we are happy to keep

:10:28.:10:29.

the EU citizens here, that is not a problem.

:10:30.:10:31.

Then being told, actually the European Court must have

:10:32.:10:34.

jurisdiction over the rights of those citizens and

:10:35.:10:35.

Well, there will be a transition period.

:10:36.:10:43.

Obviously, this is a very complex legal and political issue

:10:44.:10:46.

that is going to take quite some time to unravel.

:10:47.:10:50.

I am a solicitor, I know there is no such thing as an easy divorce.

:10:51.:10:57.

And then once the divorce terms are agreed we have then to sit down

:10:58.:11:01.

and negotiate the future relationship between

:11:02.:11:03.

the United Kingdom and the European Union.

:11:04.:11:08.

There has been a lot of rhetoric over the past number of days

:11:09.:11:11.

but I have spoken to each and every one of my 26 EU foreign

:11:12.:11:14.

ministerial colleagues over the past number of months.

:11:15.:11:17.

At no stage have I detect did any intent or any disposition or any

:11:18.:11:22.

wish or desire on the part of the European Union to exact

:11:23.:11:25.

What we're talking about is how to deal with the issue of

:11:26.:11:33.

the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union after 44

:11:34.:11:36.

I heard what the British Prime Minister has said,

:11:37.:11:42.

that no deal is better than a bad deal.

:11:43.:11:45.

I am not sure I agree with that because no deal will amount

:11:46.:11:50.

to a very challenging situation which, in my opinion,

:11:51.:11:52.

will not only be bad for the UK, but will be bad for Ireland

:11:53.:11:56.

and will also be bad for the entire European Union.

:11:57.:11:58.

It is upon the negotiating parties to ensure that we do get a deal

:11:59.:12:03.

and a deal that will ultimately result in as close as

:12:04.:12:06.

possible a relationship between the United Kingdom

:12:07.:12:09.

and the European Union, albeit from outside the single market.

:12:10.:12:21.

Charles Flanagan there, the Irish Foreign Minister.

:12:22.:12:24.

Let's discuss now with Tory MEP and leading

:12:25.:12:26.

With me here is Radoslav Sikorski, the former Polish Foreign Minister.

:12:27.:12:34.

We know Brexit is causing ructions. What has got asked to this point as

:12:35.:12:41.

opposed to where we were two weeks ago, who's to blame? Leaks are not

:12:42.:12:49.

helpful, but equally, an electioneering atmosphere heightens

:12:50.:12:54.

the motions. I don't think serious governments respond to newspaper

:12:55.:13:00.

articles. We need serious people to discuss serious issues because

:13:01.:13:05.

otherwise this could be the beginning of a train wreck. Is

:13:06.:13:10.

Theresa May's government and Boris Johnson and David Davis, are they a

:13:11.:13:15.

serious government? What was leaked and Theresa May has confirmed... She

:13:16.:13:21.

hasn't really... In effect. We learned nothing else that we have

:13:22.:13:24.

heard from British politicians on the record. I think what the EU

:13:25.:13:29.

delegation was shocked by was when they realised this wasn't

:13:30.:13:32.

propaganda, that they really believed in their own propaganda,

:13:33.:13:39.

and they tried to signal, look, you need to become more realistic. Of

:13:40.:13:42.

course, in the terms of the British election campaign, it makes sense to

:13:43.:13:47.

make the EU the enemy. But of course, that is a very dangerous

:13:48.:13:52.

game. Daniel Hannan, it is a dangerous game, isn't it? If Theresa

:13:53.:13:56.

May wins the election she will have to deal with these people and been

:13:57.:14:00.

negotiating with them? I expect that to be a cordial

:14:01.:14:10.

negotiation. It is what people say on the record that matters. Leaks

:14:11.:14:15.

you cannot be held to, but you have to think about what you say on paper

:14:16.:14:19.

and if you look at the EU formal position, the guidelines agreed in

:14:20.:14:23.

the short meeting, they are not so far off what the British Government

:14:24.:14:27.

is pushing for. We agree there should be a free trade agreement and

:14:28.:14:35.

we agree on military and security. We agree on not being a hardboard

:14:36.:14:42.

and in either -- a hard order in Ireland. It does not need to be a

:14:43.:14:47.

process that spins out of control but it was fortunate to have this

:14:48.:14:51.

leak and story about the money. Was Theresa May right to ramp it up by

:14:52.:14:57.

saying they are interfering in the election, reminiscent of claims

:14:58.:15:01.

about Putin and Donald Trump. This was not a situation of her making.

:15:02.:15:06.

She has this supposedly private dinner and finds herself being

:15:07.:15:10.

traduced in an outrageous way in a foreign newspaper and we get this

:15:11.:15:15.

100 billion, a suspiciously round figure, you might say it has been

:15:16.:15:20.

plucked out of the air for theatrical effects. It would be

:15:21.:15:24.

bizarre for her not to say this reminds us of the magnitude of the

:15:25.:15:30.

choice in front of the country. Do you want me in our corner or would

:15:31.:15:32.

you rather have Jeremy Corbyn batting for Britain in these talks?

:15:33.:15:37.

Do you think the EU has been blameless on this? You accept the

:15:38.:15:43.

leak is not good and inner sense provoked the latest scuffles. It was

:15:44.:15:47.

60 billion and it seems to have gone up to 100 billion. The EU is a ?15

:15:48.:15:58.

trillion economy. 60, 100 billion, is not... It is quite a lot to us.

:15:59.:16:07.

Ten of that is liabilities of British bureaucrats' pensions. Why

:16:08.:16:10.

should Continental taxpayers pay for that? This is an outcome of a budget

:16:11.:16:18.

in whose negotiation written participated. I think the figure

:16:19.:16:22.

could be cut significantly if Britain gets an extension on the

:16:23.:16:27.

negotiations because then some of the liabilities will be covered. I

:16:28.:16:31.

think there are ways of handling it. There needs to be trust and goodwill

:16:32.:16:37.

on both sides. Otherwise we will have a really mean train wreck.

:16:38.:16:44.

Everybody agrees there needs to be goodwill. Daniel Hannan, if the bill

:16:45.:16:49.

is 100 billion, whatever it is, is it worth Britain paying the bill to

:16:50.:16:53.

get a deal, or would you say no deal is better than a deal that involves

:16:54.:17:00.

tens of billions? It is a statement of the obvious that no deal is

:17:01.:17:05.

better than a bad deal. If the bill were a trillion, everybody would

:17:06.:17:15.

accept, except Nick Clegg. I think the only fair way of resolving the

:17:16.:17:18.

financial issue is to ask an independent tribunal, an

:17:19.:17:23.

international court or other arbitrator, to look at the assets

:17:24.:17:27.

and liabilities and both sides to agree to abide by the outcome which

:17:28.:17:33.

will take the issue off the table. Alan legal obligation is probably

:17:34.:17:37.

smaller but we should be prepared to act in a spirit of goodwill and

:17:38.:17:42.

these are important friends and allies. I will take from that that

:17:43.:17:46.

paying quite a bit of money is part of that. But not 100 billion.

:17:47.:17:48.

The general election maybe preoccupying us,

:17:49.:17:49.

but large parts of the country get to vote tomorrow.

:17:50.:17:52.

There are lots of local elections around Britain -

:17:53.:17:54.

among others, county council elections in England,

:17:55.:17:56.

And there will also be elections for six metro mayors

:17:57.:18:01.

around England - a new construct,

:18:02.:18:04.

and a potentially quite important one - a George Osborne legacy.

:18:05.:18:07.

These are seen as the big names that will develop city regions

:18:08.:18:10.

One of the hardest fought of those contests is for

:18:11.:18:13.

Katie Razall has been there to see how that battle is playing out.

:18:14.:18:24.

It is the only manufacturer of litmus test paper in the UK and is

:18:25.:18:34.

based just outside Dudley. Here they produce the testing papers used in

:18:35.:18:38.

school chemistry and laboratories across Britain and beyond. With

:18:39.:18:41.

voter apathy an issue, will workers here vote in the region's first

:18:42.:18:47.

mayor? I don't think one person can make a massive change. It is an

:18:48.:18:52.

important step for us, something we cannot take light-heartedly. It

:18:53.:18:58.

depends what they stand for as to whether I will vote. You only have a

:18:59.:19:02.

day or two to find out. That is enough time. With the West Midlands

:19:03.:19:07.

mayoral election is seen as a litmus test for what might happen on June

:19:08.:19:12.

the 8th, where better than Johnson test papers to test out whether this

:19:13.:19:15.

significant political battle ground might change from Tory to Labour

:19:16.:19:22.

come the general election. The Conservative candidates had a

:19:23.:19:28.

heftier war chest at his disposal, spending up to 1 million before

:19:29.:19:32.

election rules kicked in. With six contests across England, the former

:19:33.:19:37.

John Lewis managing director is seen as the Tories' best hope of

:19:38.:19:42.

clinching a job and on Labour territory it would bring predictions

:19:43.:19:48.

of a LAN side in June. The fact we think it is all to play for shows

:19:49.:19:53.

how far we have come in this campaign. You cannot run it entirely

:19:54.:19:57.

as a business but there are transferable skills and the most

:19:58.:20:00.

important thing is to build a team of leaders. This is about the group

:20:01.:20:06.

of people who would lead and I have shown an ability to bring people

:20:07.:20:10.

together and work as a team. The new mayor will oversee 28 Parliamentary

:20:11.:20:20.

constituencies. 2 million residents vote for a mayor who will have a

:20:21.:20:26.

budget of 36.5 million a year, less than 1% of the turnover Andy Street

:20:27.:20:34.

presided over at John Lewis. It is not conservative blue but Labour

:20:35.:20:36.

read that appears to have the advantage in this region. Labour

:20:37.:20:42.

have an active campaign based to mobilise. In this heavily Brexit

:20:43.:20:48.

voting area, Sion Simon has come up with a slogan that sums up what he

:20:49.:20:51.

believes the mayor can do. He wants to keep the campaign locally

:20:52.:20:57.

focused. Take back control, I have heard that before. I have made this

:20:58.:21:02.

argument for seven years. Standing down from the Commons in 2010 to

:21:03.:21:08.

campaign said mayoral devolution in the West Midlands and taking back

:21:09.:21:12.

control is about us here being in charge of our destiny, running our

:21:13.:21:17.

own services, being in charge of our own money. Don't underestimate how

:21:18.:21:22.

much of the shark the election of a Conservative mayor will be to the

:21:23.:21:25.

Labour establishment that runs so much of this region. With just over

:21:26.:21:31.

a month to the general election it would allow the Conservatives to

:21:32.:21:34.

claim they have broken down the red wall in one of Labour's heartlands,

:21:35.:21:41.

and perhaps can become a party of more than the English shires and

:21:42.:21:47.

suburbs. In June, a uniform swing of 5% to the Conservatives would see

:21:48.:21:53.

six Labour seats in this region and. 10%, as Tony Blair experienced, five

:21:54.:21:59.

more would become conservative. If Labour does better than predicted, a

:22:00.:22:06.

uniform 5% swing would deliver them one conservative seat, 10% swing,

:22:07.:22:11.

three. Voters in the region's first mayoral contests get two votes, a

:22:12.:22:17.

first choice and second preference if that candidate is eliminated,

:22:18.:22:22.

which makes this battle interesting to outside eyes, because it will

:22:23.:22:25.

give an insight into where supporters of the smaller parties

:22:26.:22:32.

might transfer allegiance. Whether Ukip voters prefer Labour or the

:22:33.:22:35.

Tories for example. Is there much of a market for a Liberal Democrat

:22:36.:22:43.

offer? People are unhappy with the cuts the Conservative government has

:22:44.:22:48.

implemented in this region and I am picking up discontent among Labour

:22:49.:22:52.

voters. I do not think it is as clear as you suggest. It is an open

:22:53.:22:59.

situation. Ukip, has the party lost its appeal since the referendum? I

:23:00.:23:04.

do not have trouble convincing people there is a purpose for Ukip.

:23:05.:23:08.

Sometimes they say what is the point of Ukip? But when you explain Brexit

:23:09.:23:14.

is a long way away and there are a lot of negotiations to do. We want

:23:15.:23:19.

to be a mainstream party and there is a place for something that is not

:23:20.:23:23.

Labour or Conservative. The Green Party candidate hopes to benefit

:23:24.:23:33.

with widespread dissatisfaction. A lot of people vote green because

:23:34.:23:39.

they are fed up with the big three. It is about saying the current plans

:23:40.:23:44.

have not worked. This region voted Brexit because they said we do not

:23:45.:23:48.

feel we have power over our lives and want to try something new. The

:23:49.:23:53.

Communist Party candidate was clear where his second preference votes

:23:54.:23:57.

might go, but his party is not putting up candidates in June

:23:58.:24:02.

because they liked Jeremy Corbyn's Labour so much. The polls suggest we

:24:03.:24:07.

will do well in the first round and then there will be the elimination

:24:08.:24:11.

of the smaller parties and then a fight between Tory and Labour and

:24:12.:24:17.

the majority of people will be voting for me will vote for Labour

:24:18.:24:24.

and I am in favour of that. Election forecasting is inexact but after

:24:25.:24:27.

tomorrow we will be clear on what colours may emerge.

:24:28.:24:30.

To the other election now - our third of the evening.

:24:31.:24:33.

It was fight night - the big televised debate

:24:34.:24:37.

between the two candidates, the liberal internationalist,

:24:38.:24:40.

Emmanuel Macron, and the far right populist, Marine Le Pen.

:24:41.:24:42.

This was a huge test for Macron in particular,

:24:43.:24:44.

because some of his own supporters wondered whether the populist case

:24:45.:24:47.

always tends to sound more immediately gratifying than the

:24:48.:24:49.

liberal one, whatever the long term merits of the argument.

:24:50.:24:51.

TRANSLATION: I am telling you your plan is hidden. You talked about

:24:52.:25:04.

gifts. But giving money back. To give back money. To the French, that

:25:05.:25:11.

is a gift? Who else would you like to give it to? When you lower taxes,

:25:12.:25:18.

if you have not also lowered spending, all listening understand.

:25:19.:25:24.

You are not lowering spending. You will either increase the deficit and

:25:25.:25:28.

depend on financial markets or increased taxes during your

:25:29.:25:32.

presidency but you are not saying so, or increase the debt and at that

:25:33.:25:36.

moment our children will lose out and I do not want anything to do

:25:37.:25:41.

with those solutions. Those exchanges do not work in voice-over.

:25:42.:25:47.

Gabriel, what did you take out of it?

:25:48.:25:51.

It was pretty scrappy and the exchange indicative of a lot of it.

:25:52.:25:58.

Emmanuel Macron on top of his brief throwing out facts and figures and

:25:59.:26:03.

policies and Marine Le Pen, less detail and fewer policies, but

:26:04.:26:06.

coming back with stinging one-liners. You just want to give

:26:07.:26:11.

gifts to big corporations. They will play well with some people who feel

:26:12.:26:17.

let down by the status quo. It was an angry exchange. Talking over each

:26:18.:26:22.

other. The moderators lost control, pleading with them to let the others

:26:23.:26:28.

speak. It was messy. Macron accused Le Pen of lying and talking rubbish.

:26:29.:26:33.

He must have said mad am Le Pen 100 times. How start the choices to the

:26:34.:26:44.

voters. It was not two politicians vying for the centre ground but two

:26:45.:26:49.

politicians with starkly different visions. Marine Le Pen populist,

:26:50.:26:56.

even nationalistic. Emmanuel Macron internationalist, globalist and

:26:57.:27:01.

liberal. I suppose the crux is did the debate, probably the biggest

:27:02.:27:07.

single event of the campaign, did it move the dial enough to change the

:27:08.:27:12.

story of the polls, which is Macron is probably 60%, Le Pen about 40.

:27:13.:27:20.

Roughly that. 59, 40 one. If as a French photo you were looking for

:27:21.:27:23.

somebody who looks presidential and in command of their brief, who looks

:27:24.:27:29.

competent, like they may be comfortable from day one on the job,

:27:30.:27:34.

they might go for Macron, but they probably have made up their minds

:27:35.:27:38.

already to vote for him. The question is who won the debate to

:27:39.:27:44.

present themselves as a candidate of change? Neither comes from an

:27:45.:27:48.

established party. Where Le Pen did well was pushing back on Macron's

:27:49.:27:54.

presentation of himself as somebody who can shake things up. She came

:27:55.:27:58.

out with the problems France is facing and put them at the door of

:27:59.:28:01.

Emmanuel Macron. Whether that is enough to shift voters into how

:28:02.:28:08.

camp, or keep them away from the polls, we will see on Sunday.

:28:09.:28:10.

Well, the US knows a lot about the appeal of arguments based

:28:11.:28:12.

Not just from President Trump, but also the tradition of shock

:28:13.:28:16.

jocks, with strong views and big audiences.

:28:17.:28:19.

In that category is Glenn Beck, one of the giants -

:28:20.:28:21.

having served on Fox TV, his own radio and TV programmes.

:28:22.:28:24.

He's a radical conservative Mormon, with idiosyncratic views.

:28:25.:28:26.

Now here's the thing - Glenn Beck, unlike some

:28:27.:28:37.

This is him talking about President Obama. He has exposed himself as a

:28:38.:28:45.

guy with a deep-seated hatred for white people, the white culture, I

:28:46.:28:50.

don't know what it is. You cannot say he does not like white people.

:28:51.:28:56.

70% of the people we see everyday is white. I am not saying he does not

:28:57.:29:02.

like white people. I say he has a problem. I believe he is a racist.

:29:03.:29:04.

Now here's the thing - Glenn Beck, unlike some

:29:05.:29:06.

of his conservative shock jock counterparts,

:29:07.:29:08.

Beck has even compared him to Hitler.

:29:09.:29:12.

A sign of some conservative confusion over how

:29:13.:29:14.

Perhaps these kinds of wrinkles come with a reconfiguration

:29:15.:29:19.

of old political divides into new ones.

:29:20.:29:21.

A little earlier, I spoke to Glenn Beck about his current

:29:22.:29:23.

political leanings, and his regrets of the past.

:29:24.:29:32.

Well, I had such a low bar for him that it's, you know,

:29:33.:29:35.

I think he's doing fine for what he was saying

:29:36.:29:43.

I'm glad he's not getting done some of the stuff that he wanted to do.

:29:44.:29:56.

I'm gravely concerned about his attack on the press,

:29:57.:30:01.

his constant, relentless attack on the press, even though

:30:02.:30:03.

part of me feels good that they are getting their head

:30:04.:30:06.

But this isn't going to go anywhere, except bad places.

:30:07.:30:13.

The divide is getting worse and worse in America and I don't

:30:14.:30:16.

think it's based on anything that resembles facts or principles.

:30:17.:30:21.

Why do you think he appeals to the public?

:30:22.:30:24.

Were they gullible, were they stupid?

:30:25.:30:26.

I think you can relate to it with Brexit.

:30:27.:30:32.

I think people are tired of feeling though they're being pushed around,

:30:33.:30:37.

feeling as though somebody else that is disconnected from them

:30:38.:30:40.

They are tired of the playing by the rules and then

:30:41.:30:46.

having the banks win, having the people in

:30:47.:30:53.

Washington or in London, who you know are corrupt,

:30:54.:30:57.

I think people are just tired of that.

:30:58.:31:04.

Do you think Trump or other populists, take Marine Le Pen

:31:05.:31:06.

in France, do you think they are creating the anger

:31:07.:31:11.

among the public, or are they reflecting and anger?

:31:12.:31:15.

To speak about Donald Trump, I think he recognised the anger

:31:16.:31:24.

and is playing into the anger and then magnifying it.

:31:25.:31:27.

Where a truly great leader sees anger and then says,

:31:28.:31:30.

let's channel this into something positive and move in a different

:31:31.:31:33.

direction, instead we are seeing people channel it into even more

:31:34.:31:39.

anger and populism and nationalism, which, as Europe knows,

:31:40.:31:41.

Let's talk about you, because you're sitting here,

:31:42.:31:48.

you're sounding like a very measured guy and you've got your

:31:49.:31:51.

criticisms of Trump and those who would seek to divide.

:31:52.:31:55.

I mean, where have you been for the last 20 years?

:31:56.:31:59.

You've been doing exactly that stuff.

:32:00.:32:01.

You've been making comments about Mexicans.

:32:02.:32:03.

You said Mexico is a country being overtaken by lawbreakers

:32:04.:32:05.

You have written a book called It Is About Islam.

:32:06.:32:14.

and knew what I know now, I would do it differently.

:32:15.:32:19.

Knowing what I knew then, I didn't understand it and I think

:32:20.:32:23.

that what is happening, at least in America with the press,

:32:24.:32:26.

This is why I keep saying to people like Samantha Bee

:32:27.:32:33.

and others here in America - Stephen Colbert - is stop.

:32:34.:32:37.

You are assuming that half of the country is,

:32:38.:32:44.

you know, either stupid, or they are going...

:32:45.:32:49.

If I break it for these, they are going to get it

:32:50.:32:52.

So, right now, the left has switched places in America and the media

:32:53.:33:01.

We are all involved, whether we are on Facebook,

:33:02.:33:07.

or we are on a national broadcast, we are all making the same mistake

:33:08.:33:11.

to one degree or another, and I, unfortunately,

:33:12.:33:13.

One thing, and in your career is negativism because you basically

:33:14.:33:16.

You are a defender of the Constitution.

:33:17.:33:33.

Indeed Obama was a constitutionally elected president, and yet you do

:33:34.:33:35.

spend your whole time pulling them down.

:33:36.:33:38.

Well, OK, first of all, I am a political commentator in America,

:33:39.:33:41.

Unfortunately, that's what people pay to hear me talk about.

:33:42.:33:51.

Beyond that, I am not calling for them to be toppled or anything.

:33:52.:33:55.

I respect the office of the President, I respect

:33:56.:33:59.

I just feel what each of them are doing is an affront

:34:00.:34:04.

The novelist and screenwriter Hanif Kureishi burst onto the scene

:34:05.:34:16.

30 years ago with an Oscar nomination for his debut film,

:34:17.:34:18.

Until then, you would never have believed a film about a laundrette

:34:19.:34:23.

Well, Kureishi is now in his 60s, but as the one-time enfant terrible

:34:24.:34:28.

of Anglo-Asian letters, he shows little sign of mellowing.

:34:29.:34:32.

His new novel, The Nothing, published tomorrow,

:34:33.:34:36.

is about the sexual jealously of an ageing cuckold.

:34:37.:34:39.

Now interestingly, the villain of the piece is based on a conman

:34:40.:34:41.

who went to prison after swindling Kureishi out of his savings,

:34:42.:34:45.

as he's been explaining to our culture editor Stephen Smith.

:34:46.:34:56.

He's usually sweaty with anxiety and smelling of drink, if not pubs.

:34:57.:35:01.

This overgrown schoolboy with his balding hair,

:35:02.:35:03.

Some disaster involving his wallet, a train, a change of trousers

:35:04.:35:11.

and perhaps a woman or two has inevitably befallen him

:35:12.:35:14.

I dislike unsightly people when I don't pity them.

:35:15.:35:25.

They are always at a disadvantage when it comes to entitlement.

:35:26.:35:27.

If Eddie were good looking, we wouldn't be having this trouble.

:35:28.:35:38.

Eddie is an unprincipled Soho chancer and the

:35:39.:35:40.

third corner of a love triangle in Hanif Kureishi's

:35:41.:35:42.

He is modelled on a real-life money man who cheated

:35:43.:35:47.

The first person I rang up after I found out,

:35:48.:35:54.

gone to my bank and found out my accounts had been emptied,

:35:55.:36:00.

the first person I rang up was the man who did it.

:36:01.:36:09.

And I've remember ringing him up and him expressing shock.

:36:10.:36:13.

And I expressed shock and he came down.

:36:14.:36:15.

Later on, when you look back, obviously you think you're

:36:16.:36:20.

I spent quite a lot of time with him and I became

:36:21.:36:24.

quite interested in him, as well as hating him.

:36:25.:36:26.

So I found myself writing a story about a conman.

:36:27.:36:28.

But one of the things that I noticed that's happened in the culture

:36:29.:36:32.

recently is the criminals are not really any more on the margins.

:36:33.:36:35.

That the criminality has moved, as it were, to the centre.

:36:36.:36:38.

So after the financial crash of 2008, we began to realise

:36:39.:36:41.

that the banks and the hedge funds and other financiers, and so on,

:36:42.:36:46.

We took it for granted that the good things, equality,

:36:47.:36:56.

feminism, antiracism, freedom for sexual minorities,

:36:57.:37:00.

The good things would be good for everyone.

:37:01.:37:05.

Nigel Farage and I come from the same place.

:37:06.:37:13.

We're very, very similar in our background.

:37:14.:37:16.

Indeed, lived in a little village called Downe,

:37:17.:37:19.

just outside where I was born and brought up.

:37:20.:37:24.

And the idea that we're going back to England

:37:25.:37:26.

in the 1950s is a horrifying, narrowing and enervating idea.

:37:27.:37:30.

I think there's been a real shift and I don't think people believe any

:37:31.:37:33.

It's a tragedy, the collapse of the left.

:37:34.:37:39.

And Corbyn is a tragedy, really, for the Labour Party,

:37:40.:37:42.

And was a reaction to Blair and I think we all thought

:37:43.:37:49.

it was a good time that we got someone really left wing in.

:37:50.:37:53.

At the beginning, I thought Corbyn was a good idea.

:37:54.:38:01.

And I think, like a lot of people, thought, at last, we were returning

:38:02.:38:04.

I think we need a real rethink on the left

:38:05.:38:11.

about what a progressive left in Britain and in Europe would mean.

:38:12.:38:18.

I think Macron in France, actually, has been rather illuminating

:38:19.:38:23.

Let's hope something similar could happen in the UK.

:38:24.:38:31.

These have been themes of Kureishi's work since he won an Oscar nod 30

:38:32.:38:49.

years ago for the screenplay of My Beautiful Launderette.

:38:50.:38:53.

I want to do some work for a change, instead of all this hanging around.

:38:54.:38:57.

He says racism has been getting worse and Muslims

:38:58.:39:00.

Is medieval, is backward, hates gays and hates women

:39:01.:39:18.

Millions, indeed a billion people have been captured

:39:19.:39:25.

Don't you think most people, or a lot of people,

:39:26.:39:29.

I mean, at least 7 million people voted for Marine Le Pen

:39:30.:39:36.

and Marine Le Pen is a full on right-wing fascist

:39:37.:39:41.

and comes from, as it were, a proper fascist background.

:39:42.:39:46.

And during the Brexit campaign and so on,

:39:47.:39:48.

and during the Trump election, we have seen a huge rise in racism.

:39:49.:39:56.

And the establishment of this new paradigm of the Muslim,

:39:57.:39:59.

People might be watching this saying we have a Mayor

:40:00.:40:05.

You know, it's no longer exceptional to see minority MPs,

:40:06.:40:13.

In a lot of ways, things have changed for the

:40:14.:40:25.

There has been huge changes for the better,

:40:26.:40:28.

Certainly far more, say, in Britain than in France,

:40:29.:40:31.

where there is real separation, you feel, between the Muslim

:40:32.:40:34.

population and these so-called elite, or metropolitan elite.

:40:35.:40:36.

So Britain is exceptional in that sense.

:40:37.:40:38.

But when you look at the rest of Europe, what's happening

:40:39.:40:42.

in Hungary, in Poland and so on, it's very, very worrying to see

:40:43.:40:45.

Kureishi's latest protagonist, an ageing film-maker,

:40:46.:41:00.

recounts an unsparing black comedy of sexual jealousy and cuckoldry.

:41:01.:41:05.

The only thing I regret are the occasions when I haven't

:41:06.:41:10.

been as candid as I could have been, actually.

:41:11.:41:12.

I mean, it's really important to speak.

:41:13.:41:16.

It's really important to speak and to see where your words,

:41:17.:41:18.

My books are getting a bit shorter because it is a bit of a huff

:41:19.:41:25.

and puff to get from the beginning to the end, but also I feel more

:41:26.:41:29.

She strokes and kisses me, her husband and baby.

:41:30.:41:36.

This is as decent a way to die as any.

:41:37.:41:42.

Everything has been said, except her name.

:41:43.:41:45.

Zee, Zee, you forgot about me for a time,

:41:46.:41:47.

Dying's not so bad, you should try it sometime.

:41:48.:42:02.

Kirsty will be in this chair tomorrow. Good night.

:42:03.:42:15.