17/05/2017 Newsnight

Tonight we're live in Northern Ireland where the general

election campaign is being dominated by the impending split

from the European Union, which in turn is hardening

You are in the Republic and I am in Northern Ireland,

or the UK or whatever you like to call it.

We'll be debating Northern Ireland's future at the edge of the EU,

with senior figures from the main political parties here.

And here in London, parts of the Conservative manifesto

are emerging tonight ahead of its launch tomorrow,

we'll hear about their new policy on social care.

And, we'll look at the Lib Dem manifesto too.

Vince Cable will tell us whether it is about more

The general election has come at a time for Northern Ireland

Northern Ireland's political scene is entirely different

from anywhere else in the UK, but right now devolution, Stormont,

is suspended after a bust-up between the DUP and Sinn Fein,

That in turn has huge implications for Northern Ireland's voice

in the Brexit negotiations and the role of the 18 Westminster

After Brexit, and Northern Ireland voted to remain, Northern Ireland

will be the UK's only land frontier with the EU.

There are few people here who believe a hard border

would be anything other than disastrous, and the EU's chief

negotiator Michel Barnier has said categorically that said the border

issue was one of three priorities to be resolved before Britain can

negotiate a trade deal, something disputed at the weekend

Sinn Fein have used Brexit to ramp up their call

for a referendum on unification, and the EU has agreed that

in the event of a vote to unify, Northern Ireland would automatically

be subsumed into the EU as part of Ireland.

The DUP say a border poll would destabilise Northern Ireland

Once again in Northern Ireland the divide comes down to unionists

Before we debate the issues with senior figures in the main

political parties here, the BBC's Ireland correspondent

Chris Buckler explores the key issues at play in the election,

against a divide that seems to be reasserting itself.

Invisible lines in this land will soon mark where one union

This will be the edge of both the EU and the UK.

Davy Crockett is a descendant of his namesake, the famous

His farm, which straddles the Irish border on the outskirts

of Londonderry, makes him the king of a new frontier.

This is the border, you are in the Republic and I am

in Northern Ireland, or the UK, or whatever

I can shake hands with you here, across the divide!

But if this border was to go sometime in the future,

the EU has made clear that Northern Ireland could be part

Do you think that being part of the European Union would be

an incentive for people to vote for a united Ireland?

Agriculture would be better in Europe, but the vast majority

of the people will be afraid of losing what they'd get

from the British taxpayer, not what they'd get from Europe.

But Republicans believe Brexit could strengthen their case,

and support for their ultimate aim, a united Ireland.

It's only three months since the last vote here,

a bitter Assembly election that left the parties deeply divided,

Sinn Fein say they won't go back into power-sharing with unionists

unless some of their demands are met, including legislation that

would give official status to the Irish language.

If you feed a crocodile, they're going to keep coming back

That was the Democratic Unionist leader's response to calls

It fired Republican anger and helped Sinn Fein

to its best election result, however, something they celebrated

But Arlene Foster now appears to be trying to reach out,

even speaking Irish when she visited this Catholic school in Newry.

Irish is the first language of just a 0.25% of the population here,

but it's important to the students who the DUP leader

Whether you see yourself as Irish, whether you see yourself

as Northern Irish, whether you see yourself as British,

You feel more Irish than Northern Irish?

Reinforcing an Irish identity is important in Sinn Fein's push

for what's known as a border poll, a referendum vote on Irish unity.

With the heart, it's the passion, it's the love of the Irish language,

culture, and the hope one day of the reunification of Ireland.

But I don't know if this is the time for it or not.

The peace walls that divide much of Belfast mark out what are broadly

seen as Catholic nationalist areas from Protestant unionist

But there are population changes taking place here that

could have an impact on any future border poll.

When do you think the number of Catholics will outnumber

Is there a danger in overplaying the number of Catholics actually

Well, the census figures might overplay that,

and here I'm just calling to mind evidence I remember seeing

from public surveys, where I saw evidence that a quarter

of Sinn Fein voters wouldn't vote for a united Ireland just then.

Years of peace have changed places like Belfast, and that's not

Many accept that the clash of cultures here is part

One in five say they see themselves as Northern Irish.

But Tina McKenzie, who was once part of a now defunct

cross-community party called NI21, says the last election showed

voters are motivated by conflict, not compromise.

We had the biggest turnout since the Good Friday Agreement,

ten percentage points up on last time.

That's because people actually felt threatened.

There was this call from Unionists to say we might get

It pulls at the strings of people's core identity.

Modern politics in Northern Ireland is still something of

And that's not surprising, when you consider that many

voters lived through years of horrendous violence.

I was going in and out of consciousness.

Jim Dixon was seriously injured in the Enniskillen bombing.

My skull was smashed like an eggshell.

I was split from here right up to here, and my jaw

The IRA attack on a Remembrance Day service in that town 30

years ago is an event that is impossible to forget.

People today are being told a lot of garbage about "these

Nobody's changed, to get to where they're going,

If they never had started, there would have been a united

Killing and murdering people doesn't unite people.

How people see and want that troubled past to be

remembered is something that divides communities.

Legacy and issues of identity polarise with every vote here,

and that will be true once again in this general election,

with unionists appealing to their core base and nationalists

theirs, all contributing to the many reasons why there's

no strong nor stable government at Stormont.

At election time, nationalists and unionists often seem to be

But away from the heat of that battle for votes,

they need to find ways of understanding each other,

otherwise the past will continue to haunt future generations,

be they British, Irish or Northern Irish.

I'm joined now by Claire Hanna from the SDLP, Jeffrey Donaldson

of the DUP, Sinn Fein's John O'Dowd, Naomi Long from the Alliance

Party, and the Ulster Unionists' Steve Aiken.

Thank you for joining us tonight. Jeffrey Donaldson, the implication

of Brexit being at the heart of this election is that it reinforces the

divide. The DUP was the only party that voted for Brexit. That's true

but 45% of the people of Northern Ireland voted for Brexit and we get

30% normally in an election. So we are fishing in a big pond as far as

we are concerned. I sense it when I'm out canvassing, I think support

for the DUP is going to increase as a result of Brexit, I think people

are voting DUP dizzy Brexit delivered. John O'Dowd, Sinn Fein

used the spectre of Brexit to push for unification but the figures

don't add up. An opinion poll said only 22% support a united Ireland.

Are you rolling back from the idea of a referendum on unification?

Brexit is the biggest constitutional change on the island of Ireland

since partition. The figures you quote are similar to the Scottish

independence polls a year before the Scottish independence referendum. We

do not fear a referendum on Irish unity, bring on the referendum. Do

you really believe in the SDLP that there is any appetite for a vote on

unification now? I think Brexit has undoubtedly put Irish unity further

up the political agenda. All of the challenges that existed on the 22nd

of June remain about reconciliation. If Brexit shows anything it's the

division and damage of a massive constitutional question boiled down

to a yes or no answer. And divisive it was, even in the UK. We think

while we deal with a massive challenge, economic and political

shocks of Brexit, polarising it and making it through a green and orange

lenses and constructive. Steve Aiken, the UUP voted remain and are

committed to making the best of Brexit... We are a Unionist party.

You are pushing for special designation status for Northern

Ireland, what is that? We are not looking for a special status. What

we want is the best deal for Northern Ireland. We want to have

Northern Ireland not being penalised by Brexit. More importantly, looking

at the opportunities. We keep talking about the issues around

borders. We shouldn't have any borders across these islands at all.

We shouldn't have any hard borders. We should have free movement, we

should have the ability to move trade and services across. One of

the things we need to do is maintain the flow of over 1 billion euros a

week... How would that work? Let's bring in the Alliance Party. You are

a cross community party. How would there be no restrictions? That's not

going to happen if you are outside a customs union. That's one of the

real concerns. Despite the fact the country is quite divided over

Brexit, but Scotland and Northern Ireland are unhappy, we have a

government that seems to be hurtling towards the hardest of Brexit. We

would expect that they would moderate its approach to Brexit and

try and find a form of Brexit that would protect the best of what we

have in the EU while living up to the demands of a democratic vote. We

believe that we need to protect the freedom of movement we have in

Northern Ireland, not a economically and socially but it's important

politically in Northern Ireland. It's part of the expectation that

phrase from the Good Friday Agreement. Do you really believe

that the UUP's position is correct there will be no restrictions

anywhere? It's impossible. We are talking about two separate economic

units being forced on the people of the island of Ireland. And the north

to remain within the EU. When we putting together to economic units

pushed together against the will of the people bear is going to be

barriers in place. We will bring you back into the light as soon as

possible! Is a matter or LAUGHTER Coming back to you, Naomi, how do

you squeeze in here? It is a polarised position and you will drop

down a hole in the middle. Not at all. In the last election we polled

our best vote in 40 years. Politics polarises but it motivates those of

us who think that Brexit cannot be seen through an orange and green

lens. It is much of a more general issue. It affects those on the

national and Unionist sides. We need the best deal for Northern Ireland

as a whole, that is good for the UK and good for Ireland. Claire? Going

back on the special stat is, those of us that campaigned for Remainer

has repeatedly how you could marry up the hard Brexiter is with the

free movement that we need and enjoy, and we still have not had the

answer. There is already specific circumstances here and we will need

to be treated differently. One thing is for sure, the EU understands

Northern Ireland better than the UK. Do you believe that Claire is right

that there will have to be special designated status even though you

were voting for Brexit and that was what he wanted? First of all, the

idea that Brussels knows Northern Ireland better than London is just a

nonsense. Let's knock out on the head. London noses plays very well.

London funds this place. And has done for many years. The idea of a

united Ireland, and being economically viable, that is just

not sustainable. In terms of hard borders, no-one around this table is

arguing for a hard border. The only people I hear talking the idea is

not Steve and I, it is Sinn Fein. But what do you actually expect to

happen? It is like the old days, Sinn Fein talking about and Ireland

delete that united Ireland by blowing up the Dublin railway line.

That is nonsensical. But did you expect that you would vote for

Brexit and would be open borders and there would be no change, they would

be free movement of people and tariffs? We have a common travel

area on this Island, long before the EU existed. And we had a common

immigration policy. And common customs policies. We will be able to

work these issues through pragmatically. Elvis does not want a

hard border. And we need a government. -- Belfast does not want

a hard border. We need Belfast to function, to enable us to get a

special deal. Right now you are denying the people of Northern

Ireland a voice. Do you believe, without Stormont, that you will have

a lesser voice in the negotiations? Do you believe that? In relation to

the Brexit debate, the voice to listen to as the voice of the

constitutional research Council which paid the DUP almost ?500,000

to fund adverts, not here in the north but to influence your

listeners in London, through the metro. Where did that money come

from? Because it was a UK referendum, a referendum you did not

take part in. You can shout me down... The lowest turnout was in

nationalised west Belfast. Hang on, hang on. Let's not distract

ourselves with this at the moment. What we want to talk about now is

exactly what a border would look like and the impact for people on

the border, what that would be. I want to ask you this, do you agree

with Michel Barnier that without resolution on the border, they

cannot be a trade deal? Here we are, at the beginning of the

negotiations. There are all sorts of things to be negotiated. But do you

agree? Let's talk about some of the wider issues. I was down in Dublin

yesterday, listening to discussions about the Norway Sweden border,

looking at the French Swiss model, and the fact that we are on islands,

there are alternative approaches to make this happen. The UK has been a

trading nation for 1000 years and we can make it work. But the problem is

not going to be on the UK side of it, the problem is going to be the

border posts that will be imposed by the EU and the Republic of Ireland.

The Republic does not want that. The Republic and the United Kingdom want

to work together to make it work and we can make it work. Do you believe

that? I have to say that Steve's colleague was saying this week that

Dublin should basically keep its nose out of Northern Ireland's

business and now he is arguing that London and Dublin should be working

closely together to make sure we get the best possible border. The

reality is that if you have a customs differentiation, a

differentiation in terms of duty, you will have to have some measure

of being able to take a of that on the border. That may not result in

the kind of borders that we had in the 1970s, which were there for

security reasons, but no one has been able to take us to any location

where there is a border between Europe and another nation and show

us a seamless border that we should expect. It is right that we should

be concerned about that. People are talking about a different kind of

border, that what you would do is put in place essentially a land

border, a border at the airports and ports. Is that impossible? Nothing

is impossible in this day and age. We have electronic surveillance,

and... But would you like that border? We have it already. We

already have arrangements between the United Kingdom and the Republic

of Ireland where there is a massive sharing of information. Every single

day, Kirsty, people who come into Dublin, they have information fed

through to London. That is happening already. Claire, do you fear the

spectre of that hard and horrible border? I think not just for the

economy but for the intangible benefits that came with the

agreement and peace and free movement and access, to the rest of

the Ireland, particularly for nationalists but also for the

economy as well. If that is under threat, as you have outlined, a

border around the island would be the only practical way that it would

be unreasonable to expect Ireland enforce that. But hard Brexit leads

to a hard border? I think the key question has to be, it is

particularly things to do with business. It is not to do

necessarily with tariffs, it is to do with regulation. Those are the

important thing is that we need to sort out. Explain to me what would

happen. If you have cross-border business is all the time,

essentially one economy and two countries, so if you have a third of

milk production from Northern Ireland existing in the Republic, is

that a problem or is it not? Is it reciprocal? We are missing the point

here, talking about soft or hard borders. It is an economic border

and one that currently does not exist. Businesses who currently

trade across the island of Ireland do not have to pay tariffs and

customs, and they are going to have to pay those. How do you know that,

John? The negotiations have not even begun. How do you know that will be

the outcome? How are you going to get unimpeded access to the single

market? We know what the current situation is. The DUP lead us down a

pathway with their dark money and everything else, towards Brexit, but

they could not answer those questions. They do not know what

sort of customs union would be getting. But the do know that we are

leaving the customs union. But we don't know that. We have no

government, now executive. These two parties collapsed dead without

getting any strategy in place, so at the moment nobody is shouting for

Northern Ireland. Let's now absolutely turn to that and talk

about Northern Ireland's influence in the negotiations. John O'Dowd, if

there is no Stormont, then a vote for Sinn Fein is surely totally

useless, when you do not take your seats at Westminster and you have no

way to influence things. No voice, it is a wasted vote. Let me use my

voice. We are proud Republicans. We will not take an oath of allegiance

to the queen of allegiance to lean back England. No disrespect to the

Queen but I am not taking an oath of allegiance. -- to the Queen of

England. You said the same with Stormont and the council. But what I

am saying at this situation, if you do not have a voice at Westminster,

as you do not have, and you do not have a voice at Stormont because it

does not exist and it does not look like it is coming back, where is

your voice heard? Well, I think you will find that Sinn Fein's voice is

heard loud and clear across the island of Ireland, it is heard loud

and clear in London. I sat on the council with the Welsh executive and

the Scottish executive in the British government, when we had an

executive and not only were our views ignored but the views of the

Welsh and the Scottish executive. I will put this challenge out to those

parties, tell me which vote you have overturned in Westminster in

relation to Brexit. Tell me which vote you overturned. I am a proud

nationalist as well. Does John think he is a better Irishman than

O'Connell and others who found it in them to represent their people. Are

you better as a nationalist than SNP or Plaid Cymru? Do you think that

Sinn Fein are letting down the people of Ireland by not...

Entirely, particularly because they are making us all at sensualist from

Stormont at the moment. The SNP desk they are making us all abstain from

Stormont at the moment. But do you know what, we're going to have five

years of press releases. Wait a minute. I would like to be clear

that you actually think Stormont is useless. I am asking about

Westminster. Which Brexit vote did they overturn. John believes that

six MPs in Westminster could have no impact but four MEPs could change

the world? We have one councillor, should they bother. I would like to

bring the alliance in on this. Do you say a plague on both your

houses, DUP and Sinn Fein, for not sorting out this business over

Stormont? Because if this continues, if the negotiations at the end of

June fail, then you are looking at direct rule again. We are and that

is absolutely the worst thing that could happen in the context of

Northern Ireland. If John believes that the current government is

insensitive to Northern Ireland's needs and does not show respect,

what better way to place an offer to the people that he represents and

London than to have devolution operational. I have to say, I spent

five years at Westminster and it is quite possible to change people's

mines through persuasion and argument and voting. I changed the

law as a single member of Parliament. You cannot do that by

walking around talking to people in Westminster, by hiring rooms and

tweeting and sending out press releases. But you can do it if you

turn up and work with others on a cross-party basis. I changed the law

about donations. One law. I influenced more law than your party

has changed in all that time. The UUP position now on a return to

Stormont. We want Stormont back up and running. And here is the

interesting thing, in the talks that were going on just before, we were

getting close to consensus of all the parties together on Brexit. We

were working very closely. You were their job, clear was there, now only

was there. We were getting very close to actually having a document

and a policy that we could take forward. We need to get the Northern

Ireland assembly back up and running as soon as this election is out of

the way and get the executive up and running. You think that the glory

days of Stormont might be over because when you had Martin

McGuinness and Ian Paisley, who could command their communities, it

was a completely different matter, and actually it worked. There was a

magnet going like that, and it worked, but without them none of you

here has the power to reinstate Stormont properly. I do not agree

with that at all. I think four of the parties represented run this

table are ready to get Stormont up and running today. There is only one

party saying they are not prepared to go into government and are

holding the whole of Northern Ireland to ransom. That party is

Sinn Fein. Sorry, clear, let me be absolutely clear. The DUP has now,

zero preconditions for going back into government. But he refused to

make the progress required, by refusing to make the progress

required to make it difficult. We are prepared to go into government

tomorrow without any preconditions. Sinn Fein are blocking bad. And you

are letting them off the hook. Do you think we are about to get a

period of instability in Ireland? I hope we're not because if we are

going into direct rule, we need strong voices in Westminster. But we

have solved the bigger problems than this with the right attitude. Thank

you all very much. Before we go back to London, I would like to apologise

for the strange lighting. Thank you very much.

Now this evening, various parts of the Tory manifesto

The full document itself will come tomorrow, but we know

the social care policy, among other things.

Including significant changes for the winter fuel allowance. The

papers are leading on its tomorrow and they are divided as to whether

it is a middle class attack or a saving of people, as the mayor

rooted, to stop you having to sell your home for your care.

Our policy editor Chris Cook is with me.

A man who always gives us consistent light. Tell us about the care

proposals. The reason why the papers are split is because there are

already two buckets of measures here. Some giveaways, some take

aways. On the takeaway side, first of all, they are means testing the

individual allowance, and some of that money will go into social care.

Richer pensioners will not get that any more. The thing they are doing

on the takeaway side, they are saying that if you currently receive

care in your house, when you are means tested, to work out whether

you should contribute or not, your house will not count towards your

means testing, whereas previously did not because it was an asset you

were using at the time. They have also given a guarantee that if you

are living in your house or your partner is living in your house, you

will not have to sell your house to pay for the social care, they will

effectively do that by billing your estate when you or your partner

dies. If you have not been living in your house, if you were living in a

care home, the house has always counted as part of your assets and

so it counts towards the means testing, if you are very rich or you

have an expensive house. But now if you were living in that house, that

counts. Quite. But there are limits. So importantly, at the moment the

social care system can whittle away your possessions to ?23,000, that is

where the means testing stops. Now that will be lifted up to around

?100,000. The way to think of it, they want you to have ?100,000 to

pass on to your family, that is the classical way of explaining that.

This is quite a big package but we've also got some immigration News

from the Conservative manifesto. It's a best of the last ten years in

a sense. It's tens of thousands, under 100,000 again. Also there are

a couple of specific measures on reducing immigration, one of which

is a charge on employers of skilled migrants from outside the EU. They

are effectively raising taxes on people who employ immigrants.

It was the Lib Dems' turn to be centre of attention today,

with their manifesto released this morning.

A pitch explicitly aimed at not making the Lib Dems

the governing party, but the opposition instead.

They concede in the second paragraph that Theresa May will win.

But the party is the centre of attention in another way too,

because it is arguably the surprise of this campaign.

One might have thought the clarity of their position on Brexit

would have allowed them to suck up Remainer votes in large

numbers, but not much sign of that in the polls.

Maybe they can pick up particular seats, maybe the promise of a second

Before we reflect on that with Vince Cable, David Grossman has

been in Wells, in the south west, which was Lib Dem country.

This is one of the wells that gives England's smallest city its name.

The West Country was also the wellspring of much Lib Dem

success in recent years, but the waters of

Tim Farron desperately needs today's manifesto launch to get

some of the magic back in places like this.

The manifesto launch was in a nightclub in east London,

Mr Farron promised that his dream of overturning Brexit

In June last year, we voted for a departure but we did not

So I want you to have your choice over your future.

But the forecasts for his party are not sunny.

Like this part of the Bishop's Palace in Wells, there's not much

left now of the Lib Dems' once magnificent country edifice.

In 2010, they won five of the six seats in Somerset and then

the little yellow Lib Dem bird was sucked into the vacuum cleaner

Tessa Munt was the Lib Dems' MP here up until 2015.

Today, she's meeting clients at the Wells food bank.

In this month's council elections, she bucked the national trend,

winning a council seat from the Tories.

Now she's standing on the party's national offer.

The Lib Dems' manifesto promises a referendum on the final Brexit

deal with an option to stay in the EU.

There is help for home-buyers with a rent to own scheme,

a promise to reverse ?9.7 billion worth of benefit cuts, and

But what status does this manifesto have,

given even the Lib Dems say they won't win the election?

You absolutely need people like my colleagues and me to stand

there and ask the sensible questions in what is a period where we have no

idea what Brexit is going to look like on the May agenda.

We're definitely going to have Mrs May as Prime Minister,

I'm convinced, but it depends on the size of her majority.

This is Penniless Porch in Wells where beggars would hold

out their hands to worshippers on the way to the cathedral.

For Labour, Wells is a distant prospect but they claim to be making

Well, I'm out campaigning and I literally choose

deliberately places, houses that have got

And I go and challenge - why do you have a Lib Dem poster?

And I have a stack of Labour ones to replace those once I've had that

conversation and I have managed to persuade them that actually

James Heappey is the Conservative candidate who deposed

If he's looking relaxed, it may be because Ukip,

who polled 5500 votes in Wells at the last election,

are not fielding a candidate this time around.

I'm not sure we've yet found anything that people are sort

of uniting behind as a reason to switch across to vote Lib Dem.

Their offer seems to be that they want to be in opposition

and people seem to think that the general election

And I agree with them and I'm not sure that their message

is being particularly inspiring on the doorstep.

Local support doesn't always show through in a national election.

Roger Wilkins has spent 50 years perfecting the art

He likes it like he likes his government - strong.

I know Tessa very well and I said to her one day, I said, "Tessa,

the only trouble is you are one of the best MPs we've

ever had but," I said, "you want to get a new boss,"

Does the fact that the Lib Dems are saying that we should have

another chance to reconsider the Brexit vote...?

As far as I'm concerned, we voted to come out,

You can't have a vote and then go back.

So, if you want loyalty in Wells, meet Bryn and Wyn,

Voters, it seems, are somewhat more promiscuous.

And here is a list of all the candidates running

Sir Vince Cable was the Liberal Democrat MP for Twickenham

until 2015 and the secretary of state for business as part

He's now fighting to regain his seat at this general election.

Good evening. Can I ask about the Tory plans on social care which are

causing quite a lot of excitement. Do you think they are going to work?

They are a more generous means test, you'd be keeping up to ?100,000 of

your house or other possessions. It doesn't deal with the immediate

problem of social care, because of the cutback in local authority

funding. That's why we've come up with our proposal of 1p on income

tax. There's an immediate crisis and it doesn't address that. They are

dealing with the long-term problem and is your analysis for some people

they are going to lose out badly. Some people are taking care in their

own home. I don't understand the basic thrust of their policy because

they've held up for eight years in an attempt to get a cross-party

agreement on the ground they were opposed to taking money from the

property when people die. It seems to be a bit of a U-turn. Does it

seem to you to be a death tax? It's your money, they are going to help

you pay your bills by lending new money against that death tax...

Lending new money against the health? You support it? We have done

in the past. What their current policy seems to be missing is the

element of personal insurance which was part of the original attempt to

get a cross-party agreement under Andrew Dill not. That seems to be

missing. They are means testing the winter fuel allowance and they will

put that money into care. You are a party supporting the triple lock. In

the past you, Nick Clegg and others have suggested it was an anomaly

that it was there when pensioners were poor, and maybe it needs to be

reviewed. Why are you sticking by the triple lock? Since the financial

crisis, elderly people have done relatively well. I don't think you

solve that problem by pushing pensioners back into poverty. Until

the triple lock was introduced we had a problem that large numbers of

people on the state pension were falling below the basic poverty

line, getting into means tested benefits, were not claiming. We've

dealt with that now because we put the pension up. You don't have to

keep it up for ever and ever, do you? I don't quite see the problem

with the triple lock. One element has been controversial which is the

commitment to 2% minimum increase. Potentially that was a problem, if

you have a world of no inflation. But we are moving away from that

world now and inflation is expected to be above the Bank of England

level. The idea of a pension guarantee seems to be civilised and

sensible. One of the issues you have is that you are trying to face into

slightly different directions to these south-western seats, quite

elderly populations in some cases, and to a slightly younger

democratic, more metropolitan and different kind of voters in other

seats. Is that why you've got the triple locked in there, to make sure

you've got something to pitch to the older voters? They are both

legitimate interests and we have a large elderly population who in the

past experienced significant problems of pensioner poverty. That

problem was alleviated substantially by a reform that the Liberal

Democrats pressed for in the coalition and we want to keep it.

Let's talk about Brexit. I want to be clear. If I'm in favour of

Brexit, and pretty strongly in favour, I shouldn't vote for the Lib

Dems, should I? There are many other issues and there are many people who

support Brexit but may not be happy with the Ukip style Brexit that the

Prime Minister has committed us to. In other words, withdrawing from the

single market and customs union. You can't have it both ways. You can't

say you should vote for us if you for remain but also if you are for

Brexit, it make sense. It's a different issue. People have had

that vote, we've had the referendum. A decision has been made to leave

and we respect that. We are now dealing with a separate problem

which is what happens in two years' time. Why are you putting remain on

the ballot when you have your second referendum on it? It doesn't sound

like you've accepted it. It does. Tony Blair had a very nice metaphor.

He said, look, we've made a decision collectively as a country by a

narrow majority to move house but we don't know where we are going. We

don't know what the new house looks like. If at the end of the day we

are left with a dwelling which is appalling and full of dry rot and

rising damp and uninhabitable, the option surely has to be of going

back to where we started. We need to leave it there. Thank you.

That's all we have time for this evening.

Tomorrow it's the Conservatives' manifesto to look forward to.

It's been a busy time in Washington too. It's being reported that former

FBI director Robert Mueller has been appointed a special prosecuted to

take over the investigation into alleged Russian influence on last

year 's election. Good night. After soaking rain across a large

part of England today, tomorrow will be drier and sunnier. These places

beginning