01/06/2017 Newsnight

Forget about the polls, ignore personalities -

this election is meant to be about Brexit Britain.

But do the main parties have any idea how to remodel our economy?

I think the objective has got to be to look at creating those

higher-productive jobs, those higher-skilled jobs.

They don't exist at the present moment in time.

We'll ask these two party protagonists what they can do

to revitalise Britain's industrial heart and make us all rich.

He's doing better than many predicted.

So what will Labour's anti-Corbyn wing do now?

Mr Corbyn is ready to forgive and forget.

You know what, I do a lot of group hugs with lots of people.

Opponents of Corbyn have been flummoxed by his success.

And they're reviewing their tactics.

And our latest political bedtime story, from someone who's made a bit

There is an apocryphal story about a former

Sadly, because of public cynicism about spin,

This is turning out to be a weird election -

opinion polls gyrating, reputations fluctuating,

the unpredictable quickly becomes conceivable, or not.

There's been farce, and sadly, there has been more

tragedy in this campaign than we've experienced before.

Yet, a week to go to the vote, and it feels as though some

of our structural problems have yet to get a mention.

So we're going to start with one tonight, even at the risk of looking

like we are off the subject of the campaign.

The question is - how we deal with Britain's lopsided,

For all the rhetoric of us being the fifth,

or is it now sixth largest economy in the world, it's not

Do the Labour and Conservatives parties really have any idea

We'll ask them that, and some other questions.

But first, a quick look at the journey we've taken,

Through the monstrous scenery of slag heaps,

chimneys, piled scrap iron, foul canals, paths...

No town has come to that represent the poverty of the past than Wigan.

George Orwell's 1937 tract, The Road to Wigan Pier,

gave a shocking description of the grim reality

Pinched faces, ruined by malnutrition.

Eight to ten people living in three-room houses with no bath

Many working class adults have none of their own teeth.

Orwell brought home that Britain was two nations.

Seven decades on, and everything has changed.

Very few children are barefoot and malnourished.

And Wigan itself sometimes tires of its association

But that doesn't mean we can relax, go home and play

It's a First World problem we have now.

It's about how we create more productive jobs.

This box-making factory in Wigan provides semiskilled work.

But it needs even more of the top end stuff.

Without that, we can't get pay levels up, or tax revenues to pay

I think the objective has got to be to look at creating those

higher-productive jobs, those higher-skilled jobs.

They don't exist at the present moment in time.

What do you do, create the jobs and hope that workers will come?

Or do you have the workforce with those high skills,

So, it's a real mix of getting that balance absolutely right.

Not just in Wigan, but in huge parts of the country.

The key word, productivity - how much we get out

Britain's performance is pretty lamentable.

France, Germany and the US are way ahead, each producing about 30%

Lucky we work long hours, or we'd be way behind them.

Part of the problem here may be equipment,

In our case, in our small pocket of Wigan, I try as much as possible,

as the owner of Belmont Packaging, to ensure the staff have as good

a shot as possible to learn more and to skill up,

in order to combat the automisation that undoubtedly will

The productivity challenge is huge, but the key point is that challenge

So, a big part of this problem is post-industrialisation.

It doesn't so much affect the huge cities, it's the secondary cities

and the large towns that have struggled to get the investment and

It's these places, by the way, that have tended to express

So, the challenge is to bring more productive jobs and more economic

life to the parts of the country that haven't had it so easy.

Just behold the scale of disparities by looking at the value of each

London is 31% ahead of the national average.

Apart from the south east, all the nations and regions

Wales and Northern Ireland are each about 20% behind.

So, Britain's poor productivity and its extreme imbalances can be

London's got very high levels of productivity.

If you want to raise national productivity,

you're going to have to do it in places like the north east

The old de-industrialised regions have to have their

And I don't think there's a lot of mystery, in some ways,

It's investment, it's investment in infrastructure,

Undoubtedly, of course, everybody will say they support the end.

The question is whether they have the imagination

Well, it is all about building post-Brexit Britain.

Both main parties have conceded that there needs to be some change

in the national economic model to spread the economic

And Peter Dowd is Labour's Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury.

Good evening to you both. Daivd Gauke first. Make your pitch to the

people of Wigan as Mac what can you do to revitalise or upgrade the

economy there? First of all, I think your report hit on port in thing. If

we want to improve living standards we have got to create the world,

that is absolutely key. How do we do that to benefit, say, Wigan? Part of

it is about infrastructure. We've got to be fiscally credible but

you've got to put the infrastructure in, improve the transport links.

Bring those northern towns and cities together is what has driven

the Northern Powerhouse thinking, that's really important. Making sure

that we are forward-looking and innovative, there is a role for

Government there in helping research and development, there is a lot of

research we are doing with innovate UK. We said in our manifesto we want

to be the most innovative country in the world. In terms of providing

support for research and development, for example, seeing

that as a priority, that is rarely important. Skills and training as

well. More money for schools and training? I can't find any in your

manifesto. There was more money set out in March. It wasn't just about

money, it was about making sure we have the new T levels, properly

recognised qualifications. Let's called your thoughts, thank you.

Peter Dowd, I want to hear what your pitch to the people of Wigan would

beat and whether it's actually any different to what Daivd Gauke says,

and whether we can distinguish between the position of the parties

on this. I don't think austerity-lite is worked. We have

lower levels of productivity as has been set out in the piece -- I don't

think austerity has worked. Skill levels are port. What do we do about

it? OK, the issue on that one is that you need investment. To get

level of productivity up, you need investment in capital and labour.

And whether that is in education, whether it's in physical

infrastructure, that's what we actually need. And what we've got is

a woeful lack of investment in that. The key to this is investment.

Right, how much are you invest in education? I'm looking at your

spending commitments. You have a lot more for schools, is that going to

make a difference? You have a bit more. All is, but -- you have a bit

more for skills. Is that the difference between you and the

Conservative Party in what you will do for Wigan? We are talking about

?25 billion investment in education, in a sense from the cradle right the

way through life. It is investment in early years, its investment in

secondary education, further education and skills, which has

taken a total battering. It is investment in university and

generally in lifelong learning, skilled pupils to bike does that

include the ?11 billion loss spending on skilled grants? Half the

total budget is on students. Are you expecting more people to go to

university as a result of your free tuition? I think it will be a mix.

Some people will go to university, but that's the point... Are you

expecting more? If you are spending ?11 billion and we get the same

output. Mike I would expect them to go more. It is a refresh, a

different look at the education service. It isn't just focus on

university students, it has to be a holistic approach over a long period

of time to education. What we have had is an atomisation of our

education service. While Rome burns in terms of education, we have stuff

about grammar schools and the issue about academies, free schools, the

point I'm trying to make is that until you get a coherent education

service from cradle and told grave, virtually, we're just going to

continue this path of lack of skills. Isn't there something in the

fact that you just need to spend a lot more on schools? You can't just

talk about skills. The one thing Labour have got that is different is

a few billion next to the schools budget, that you haven't got, David.

In terms of the manifesto, we are putting more money into schools than

we previously set up. There two important points about investment.

First of all, if we are talking about Government investment, if you

like, you've still got to maintain that credibility with the markets if

you're going to be borrowing that money, they're not going to lead it

to you if they don't think you're going to bring it back. The second

point is if we are looking at private investment, companies have

got choices all around the world. You have got to have an economy that

welcomes investment, that is business friendly, and you won't

attract investment in the UK when there are many, many choices for

businesses if for example you are making our tax system less

competitive, which is what the Labour Party proposed. It's very

interesting, because you are going back to the previous Conservative

view, that you need a strong deregulated business friendly

economy. The question people might ask is, why should we believe in

interventionism, which seems to be what you were starting out with,

from a party that has been sceptical about intervention for the last 30

years? There is a caricature, there is no contradiction in saying you

want to be business friendly and attract private investment into the

UK, you want to have a tax system that is an asset to bringing

investment in, not a liability. But there is also a role for the state.

And that comes in, you know, not in supporting failed businesses and so

on in a kind of 1970s industrial strategy. It's a modern industrial

strategy that focuses on what you areas need? In some areas it is

about skills and training, in some it is more about research and

develop and, in others it is about transport. Hard to work whether it

is going to work so hard to know whether it is going to work. We have

just had elections from metro-mayors, for example. We

getting a proper devolution to the area, people can respond to local

needs. I just wanted to spend a few minutes

on the issue that David raised, it is eye watering how much you are

expecting to raise out of British companies. I mean, it is 19.4

billion corporation tax, 1.6 billion on offshore companies, 4 billion on

corporate tax relief. You've got the stamp duty proposal, 6 billion.

Avoidance measures, let's call that 7 billion, let's call it three from

companies. It is basically 30 billion quid or so that you are

taking out of corporate profits. Have you researched or looked at, or

done the homework, on what the effect of that will be on

investment? At the end of the day, the issue is that we need investment

in the country. Everybody has to pay their fair share of taxes. The

Tories are cut in corporation tax down to 17%, when we have it at 26%,

it will still be lower than in 2010. Have you done any research on the

effect? We raise 50 billion or 60 billion in corporation tax, you are

adding 20 billion, plus other corporate taxes to that. It is a big

increase, not impossible, but a big increase. Have you researched the

effect that would have on corporate investment? Yes, corporate

investment will continue, as far as I'm concerned. There is currently

?500 billion sitting not being invested. We need to try to move

that investment on, so it is about a private and public partnership in

all of these issues. It is not just about the state or private sector,

it is about both pushing and pulling together. Companies invest... I

don't know, call it 200 billion a year. You are taking 30 billion out

of companies and you don't know if that is going to affect investment?

I didn't say that. Investment is the cornerstone of your policy. No, I

said it would not impact the economy. What evidence do you have

to support that? Have you done some research? You have to look at the

other economies you have in the G7. Their corporation tax is higher than

British levels and they still have huge amounts of investment. Can you

be sure that ?30 billion, probably one of the biggest tax increases

ever known, can you be sure that would not affect the pensions of

people that are not part of the richest 5%, perfectly ordinary

people, that it would not affect pensioners that rely on savings or

Isas? That if you whip out a ?500 from every person in the country,

equivalent, from companies, that it will not affect the economy? The

whole point of investment is to grow the economy. If you do that, you get

more tax. It is straightforward, you invest in the economy and get a

return on your investment. Let me finish with you, David. You are the

spending guy in the government, aren't you? Yes, I was the tax guy,

I am now the spending guy. You let your manifesto go through with no

figures. How did that happen? We set out a budget in March... You changed

it in your manifesto, you have no costings or numbers. You just plonk

them in. Raise defence spending by 0.5% above inflation? For a long

time we have been saying we would do that. So it has been costed and

factored into the budget numbers? If you look at what we have done, in

contrast with the Labour Party, this is not a long wish list of

proposals. It is the case that we have identified more spending, for

example, on social care. We have said where we would find money to

fund that. It is the case that we would spend more on schools. We have

identified areas... People that like these things should have elections

more often, and they will get more money thrown at these things? We're

not throwing money around willy-nilly, as the Labour Party

are. This is a pretty cautious manifesto. It also addresses some of

the long-term issues in terms of public finances. I think it is

sensible and recognises the constraints that continue to exist

in public finances which, frankly, we have not seen from the Labour

Party at all. There are some other stories I want to ask about.

President Trump, pulling the United States out of the Paris climate

change agreement. Leaders of France, Italy and Germany have all signed a

joint declaration, regretting what President Trump has done. Theresa

May has not. I gather that she has chosen not to join that. Do you

think maybe she should have signed a regret on that? Well, Amber Rudd,

last night, this point came up in the programme last night. She made

it clear that we thought it was regrettable. Clearly, the UK led the

way in terms of the Paris agreement. We do think it is regrettable.

Different countries will take different approaches in terms of how

we wish to express our opinion. I wonder how you feel. The EU and

China were talking today, they want deeper integration and more

corporation on these issues. Then you have the US stepping out,

really, of the multilateral, global system. We seem to be be being

pulled to the US? Don't think that is a fair interpretation,

particularly in terms of the Paris agreement, where the United Kingdom

played a leading role. Very much engaged in a multilateral process,

very engaged indeed. In terms of how we express views on the US

government's position, different countries will take different

approaches. As I say, Amber Ruud was very clear... Amber Ruud was, but

that hashtag asking where is Theresa, that will get more

traction? Government is clear that we are disappointed. There seems to

be confusion about the tens of thousands pledge on immigration,

which has been hanging around your neck for many years, whether it is a

pledge to get it down, to achieve it by the end of the parliament, or

whether it is a somewhat looser aspiration. Can you tell us what you

think it is? What is the tens of thousands reference? We want to

achieve it. It is important we do control immigration. Only the

Conservative Party has the desire to do so. We wanted to do it as soon as

we can. There are obviously factors that are not totally within our

control, that can move things around a bit. I think if we are to achieve

that, clearly getting a good Brexited deal is part of that

process. That is one of the factors that needs to be considered. I have

made this point before, we had a period of time when the UK economy

jobs market was growing very strongly. Southern Europe was

performing very badly. That had an impact. Yes, we would like to

achieve it. It is an important ambition and it is right we try to

control it. Everything you have said tells me that you are not saying it

is a pledge, it is like a pledge to not raise VAT, it is not in that

category. It is a loose aim and you don't want to put a specific

timetable on it? It is not 2022? We want to achieve it as soon as we

practically can. We want to achieve it, as I say, in terms of a time

frame you are talking about. I am noting that there are some

extraneous factors, if you like, that could make it more difficult.

We want to make progress on this. We will. There is no magic bullet here.

There is no wonder we can wave. Universities should be pretty

worried, students will get clobbered if you cannot do that any other way?

We have made it clear that when it comes to attracting the best and

brightest, we want to do that as well. Thank you very much indeed.

One thing that the Labour poll surge has done is lay down a challenge

They'd been happy for him to own a crashing defeat,

and then they could fight to retake the party again afterwards.

But what if he wins, or comes close to it?

How would the anti-Corbynistas respond?

Jeremy Corbyn is past pensionable age, but he appears

to be on the verge of, yes, overcoming his critics.

The Labour leader is in the final stretch of a campaign that has

exceeded expectations, as the gap in the opinion

To signal his confidence, Jeremy Corbyn today delivered

a speech on Brexit, in the Leave heartland and once symbolically

It was the Tory victory here in 1992 that showed Labour had a mountain

Today, even in Labour's wildest dreams, this seat is a long shot.

But Jeremy Corbyn hopes to claw back support.

And to our excellent Brexit team here today...

Look at the intelligence and competence that is there!

Jeremy Corbyn tried to cut a Prime Ministerial bash in Basildon

as he introduced what he dubbed the UK's next Brexit

And about the small matter of the Labour election campaign?

Mr Corbyn, a lot of your critics in the Labour Party said that this

campaign would be a rerun of the one, the unsuccessful one,

run by your close friend, the late Michael Foot in 1983.

The polls would suggest that they're wrong.

So I was wondering if, after this election,

you're planning a group hug with those Labour critics to find

a route back for them, or whether you think

OK, OK, that's a really helpful question, thank you so much!

You know what, I do a lot of group hugs with lots of people.

Because, listen, in our family, the Labour Party family,

Now, Jeremy Corbyn said the idea of bringing

the Labour Party together, he's in favour of group hugs.

What is your message to those members of the Labour Party

who have never accepted his authority as leader?

Well, look, what unites the Labour Party is so much more than

And actually, when you look at what it is that we want to do,

there's very little difference between us.

I mean, I appreciate that we're the coalition on the left,

So, unsurprisingly, another warm reception for Jeremy Corbyn

His success has flummoxed his Labour opponents.

Some had been planning an immediate challenge to him after the election.

They are now frantically reassessing their tactics.

Jeremy Corbyn is running a good campaign.

But beyond anything else, he's a beneficiary of a truly

The Prime Minister is disintegrating in front of the public.

She's gone from basing her entire campaign around her personality

to her brand being junked within three weeks.

So that is quite an extraordinary moment for British politics,

and it's quite an extraordinary opportunity for the Labour Party.

I've been speaking to Labour opponents of Jeremy Corbyn

A few weeks ago, one leading figure told me he would go down

in flames next week, and the party should respond

in a thunderclap moment by seeking to dislodge him.

That same figure now tells me this issue will drag on for a long time

if Jeremy Corbyn stays on after a defeat.

But his opponents have not given up all hope.

They say that if the British people deliver a loud

message next week then they are still prepared to strike.

But he believes that at a minimum Jeremy Corbyn needs to take

If you're not in government, you should not claim

The Labour Party should be aiming to be in government,

that is the first test, I think.

You can argue that Jeremy Corbyn could stay on if he's gaining seats

from the Conservatives, and significantly closing

As he relaxes into his stride, Jeremy Corbyn has revealed

His supporters now hope that his route to Number Ten is more

Elections are about choices, but in the heat of a campaign,

it's easy to get stuck in the detail and to lose sight of

So we thought it might be helpful to boil it all down,

set out the options, and offer a 90-second big picture

guide as to what the parties represent on a particular issue.

For some reason we decided to call it The Naked Election.

This is the first of three, and I should warn you that it

It's the word that's dividing the West at

Are we keen on free trade, comfortable with immigration,

pleased with overseas aid and happy with international

Or should jobs at home be our priority, should nations be

left to sort out their own affairs, should we distance

Yes, it's the defining division of our time.

So you'd think we'd have a clear choice on it.

One party against globalisation, economically patriotic,

supporting proper national borders and Brexit.

And another that thinks global trade makes us rich,

that loves the EU and that reads The Economist magazine, which

That's the way other elections have been fought,

Our Tory-Labour election battle is a right old muddle.

The Tories love free trade, but not the EU, which happens

to be the biggest vehicle for international

They want Britain open to international business,

Labour are warmer to the EU and immigration, but are sceptical

of international trade deals and free markets that go with them.

So, on globalisation, neither party is the real deal for against.

We may bang on about Labour and Tory, but the real divide

is between Ukip and the Lib Dems - the two parties with a clear line.

Strange, though, they have a clear line but low poll ratings.

Maybe enough of us are in a muddle on globalisation that we'd

rather avoid a clear line for the time being.

A month ago, we teamed up with BBC Trending -

our colleagues who follow the news through the undistorted

lens of social media - and we asked you, Newsnight viewers,

for help in looking at how the election campaign is playing

Well, Mukul Devichand is the Editor of BBC Trending,

and he's here now to tell us what he's found out.

What have you found out, Mukul? People have been sending in their

ads. We have received over 300

examples of adverts that were seen on Facebook,

Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. The strongest trend

was the Conservatives, who seem to be using attack adverts

- anti-Corbyn particularly. This is from the last woman's hour

thing a couple of days ago, it turned around very quickly. These

ads are very, very personal. The message is that Corbyn is a risk on

the economy and security. targeted not at Tory or Ukip voters,

but at lefties or Labour voters. And they are appearing in Labour

or Liberal Democrat-held constituencies where Ukip

had a large presence The Conservatives might be hoping

to go beyond the Ukip vote and to actually win over traditional

Labour voters so they can challenge for seats

in the Midlands and North. They are wanting people on the left

to not vote for Corbyn, vote for the Conservatives.

You can see the same strategy in the Tories YouTube ads.

I am against the replacement of Trident.

I'm not happy with the shoot-to-kill policy.

Fight all the cuts except those in the Armed Forces,

where we want to see a few more cuts taking place, and no

This one actually had across the platforms about 6 million views.

Wow, we dream of 6 million views! It is being dubbed the most successful

political ad in British history. but what's more notable

from the left is it's individuals, not the party,

who are creating their own political So their most viral song

is over 2 million views placing for this song

by anti-austerity band Captain Ska. It hit the top of the number of

download charts. It is not the Labour Party

officially. It is individuals. Individuals on the left

are also buying targeted political ads on Facebook -

what we're calling micro-pacs, are spending relatively

small amounts of money, It is crowd sourced, with their own

messages and their own ads. The key point is they are not

obliged to register with the Electoral Commission

because they have spent You only have to declare if you are

spending ?20,000. These are coming sometimes from the right, but mostly

from people on the left. We spoke to the man who designed

Barack Obama's digital and 2012, and he told us this sort

of micro-targeting on social media is not only unregulated,

it's also much more negative or mischievous, and possibly

therefore more effective. There could be things like

misinformation in it. In some ways it is a more potent form of

advertising. Those are the groups that tend

to go the most negative, It doesn't tend to be the official

parties and candidates that really go particularly negative,

or any sort of misinformation is typically ever really relayed

from it in major democracies. But it can be these

third-party groups or PACs - It's only a week to go. What can

people do to contribute? The tone of all of this might change. It is

fiercely if very important week. We are interested in what you can send

us -- it is obviously a very important week. You can e-mail or

tweak us or contact us on WhatsApp. Thanks, Mukul.

Time now for a Viewsnight - the spot we offer to the opinionated

Tonight, the journalist Reni Eddo Lodge, who wrote a book -

"Why I Am No Longer Talkng to White People About Race".

We numb ourselves with posh period dramas, and import our black

In marginalising some, it bolsters others.

White people need to speak out about institutional racism,

Well, Reni Eddo Lodge is with me to chat about that.

Good evening, thank you for joining us. You said actions speak louder

than words, obviously. What would you like every ordinary white person

to be doing that would challenge the structural racism you're talking

about? Well, Evan, I don't know if I'm the Oracle. The book is really

about outlining the structural issues to do with race and racism in

British society. So I think the first step would be to actually

recognise that there is a problem. But loads of... I mean, loads and

loads of people recognise there is a problem, both the explicit hate

crime problem and the subliminal or structural institutional racism

problem in Britain, don't they? I think actually in Britain we are

quite wedded to this idea of meritocracy and disbelief that if

you work really hard you will be able to succeed in life. But some of

the stats I outlined in the Viewsnight shows that really is not

the case. Yet for some reason when there are any initiative to address

the structural discrimination, often in positive action efforts, they are

via monthly opposed. They are not universally opposed, are they? I

suppose one of the product so much provocative title of the book, Why I

Am No Longer Talkng To White People About Race, implies that no white

person takes kind of a reasonable view on all of this. But there are,

on there? And the ones who don't come you should talk to to put them

right rather than shutting down the conversation? I don't think I'm

shutting down the conversation, here I am, chatting to you about it. The

title of the book came from a blog post that I wrote about 3.5 years

ago, entitled the same thing. It was not for want of trying, it wasn't

something I came up with flippantly. In fact I found myself in

progressive circles, amongst feminist, trying to talk about race

with them, and they were hostile and not recognising the problem. That

concerned me, we are committed to colour blindness, why are we

pretending that we are all the same with the Big Data is showing that we

are absolutely... That we're not. There are lots of groups that are

disadvantaged, some more than others. You have chosen race,

because you are black, maybe that's what you want to choose. There are

people who will say, I'm a white man, a working-class white man, my

statistics aren't very good. I was born on a bad housing estate. What

do you say to them? Particularly race and class are not in isolation.

These two structural discriminations and the way that people lose out in

our massive institutions are very closely intertwined. Actually, to

suggest that they are distinct is really doing the problem a

disservice. I have a whole chapter in the book delving into that. Reni,

thanks very much. We could talk about this a great deal longer.

Thank you for having me. The e-mail for the BBC Trending project is

election messages Laurel, not election message. -- Laurel.

But to finish the programme, it's time for our next

If you've caught this already, you'll know the concept.

We've asked an eclectic mix of political figures

to tell us a little tale, Jackanory-style - but it should be

a tale that makes a point or carries an argument about politics.

We've entirely left it to them to decide what point

they want to make, or indeed what they mean by the word 'story'.

Tonight, a former politician with a talent for fiction -

one that ultimately proved his undoing.

Here's Jeffrey Archer's bedtime story.

In the United States, there is an apocryphal story

about a former United States President.

Sadly, because of public cynicism about spin,

An investigative reporter discovered that the President's great,

great uncle was hanged for horse stealing and train robbery in 1889.

And the only picture they had is of him standing on the gallows.

On the back of the picture is a clear inscription.

"Sent to Montana Territorial Prison in 1885."

"Later, arrested by detectives in 1889, tried, convicted...

The investigative reporter decided he would get in touch

with the White House and see if they wished to comment

on the President's Great, Great Uncle Remus and his criminal

"Great Uncle Remus was a well-known businessman in Montana."

"And was a large stockholder in the Montana railroad."

"In 1883, he devoted several years of his life giving

Oh, Sheriff, please let us out of here.

"Finally taking leave, so that he could resume his dealings

"In 1887, he was a key witness in a vital investigation carried out

"In 1889, Remus sadly passed away during an important public

function held in his honour, when the stage on which he was