02/06/2017 Newsnight


02/06/2017

With Emily Maitlis. Analysis of the May and Corbyn Question Time with Boris Johnson. Plus Thanet Conservative charged over expenses and Obama's climate envoy on the Paris Accord.


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Transcript


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Theresa May faces questions from public sector workers.

:00:08.:00:10.

My question to you is, why do you care less

:00:11.:00:12.

about the children than the Labour government?

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I don't care less about the children.

:00:15.:00:19.

We'll talk to Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson.

:00:20.:00:23.

Jeremy Corbyn faces questions on nuclear weapons.

:00:24.:00:26.

Would you allow North Korea or some idiot in Iran

:00:27.:00:28.

to bomb us and then say, oh, we'd better start talking?!

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No, of course not, of course I would not do that.

:00:33.:00:42.

We'll ask our panel if they think Mr Corbyn can win.

:00:43.:00:46.

The Conservative candidate in Thanet faces criminal charges

:00:47.:00:49.

How will this affect the race there?

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I wouldn't have thought it'd make any difference.

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Because I think they're all Ukip down this way.

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And, Stephen Smith drives his bus where most

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How many of these battle buses have you seen so far?

:01:04.:01:14.

If you've sat through an hour and a half

:01:15.:01:28.

of the Leaders' Debate and you're joining us now,

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If you've missed the whole thing up until this moment, fear not -

:01:31.:01:39.

we're live in York in the Spin Room, and will be talking to Boris Johnson

:01:40.:01:42.

You will get a full taste of it here.

:01:43.:01:46.

This was the last major set TV piece of the election,

:01:47.:01:49.

and it fell to the public to ask the questions.

:01:50.:01:51.

Theresa May faced questions about public services,

:01:52.:01:53.

Brexit, and her recent tendency to backtrack.

:01:54.:01:55.

Jeremy Corbyn was pressed by the public once again on Trident,

:01:56.:01:58.

his commitment to the red button and his attitude towards the IRA.

:01:59.:02:06.

It's hard to talk about winners and losers when the two never

:02:07.:02:09.

But let's go live to Nick Watt, who was watching the debate

:02:10.:02:13.

He can tell us what happened. What was your sense, Nick? Well, in these

:02:14.:02:23.

debates you are looking for easing a moment, the moment of the US

:02:24.:02:29.

presidential election when Ronald Reagan turned to Jimmy Carter and

:02:30.:02:34.

said, there you go again. This was not a head-to-head, and you didn't

:02:35.:02:37.

have a big moment like that. But what you did have was awkward

:02:38.:02:42.

moments for both leaders. For Jeremy Corbyn, his difficult moment came

:02:43.:02:45.

when he was asked about the Trident nuclear deterrent. He made clear he

:02:46.:02:50.

has changed his position from 2015 when he said that he would never use

:02:51.:02:54.

it. He said he would not authorise a first strike. But he could not bring

:02:55.:02:58.

himself to say that he would actually authorised it in those

:02:59.:03:06.

circumstances. A member of the audience said, surely it is better

:03:07.:03:09.

to have it there and not use it than to not have it. Jeremy Corbyn would

:03:10.:03:11.

not answer that question. For the Prime Minister there was a difficult

:03:12.:03:14.

moment when she appeared not to know that they had been recent reports

:03:15.:03:17.

that the UK has given aid money to North Korea. A more versatile Prime

:03:18.:03:21.

Minister would have said, we give money to people in need, we don't

:03:22.:03:27.

give it to regimes. Nick, who was your sense, I know you have

:03:28.:03:30.

clarified that they didn't actually meet, but was there in winner from

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tonight? Well, Theresa May entered this performance having struggled in

:03:35.:03:39.

this campaign. Jeremy Corbyn came to York tonight having had a very good

:03:40.:03:44.

few weeks. I would say, against that background, the Prime Minister

:03:45.:03:47.

performed considerably above expectations. There was a difficult

:03:48.:03:51.

moment for Jeremy Corbyn when he was asked, would he specifically condemn

:03:52.:03:56.

IRA terrorism? He couldn't do that and he said that he condemned all

:03:57.:04:01.

acts of terrorism. But there was one interesting unifying theme. Both

:04:02.:04:05.

leaders came under questions in their core areas and absolutely

:04:06.:04:08.

stuck to their positions. For Theresa May, there was a difficult

:04:09.:04:12.

emotional moment when a nurse said to her, why is it right I have only

:04:13.:04:17.

had a 1% pay rise, which is basically a pay cut? The Prime

:04:18.:04:21.

Minister said, there is no magic money tree, we have difficult public

:04:22.:04:28.

finances. Jeremy Corbyn faced difficult questions from a micro

:04:29.:04:30.

businessman who employs just five people. Why should I face an

:04:31.:04:33.

increase in Corporation Tax. Jeremy Corbyn said, I'm sure you'll

:04:34.:04:37.

understand we need money for public services. The mood in the two camps,

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the Corbyn camp very happy saying the Labour leader got across his

:04:42.:04:46.

core message, the big message he got across with that Theresa May would

:04:47.:04:49.

not debate with him. But I have seen some glum cabinet ministers this

:04:50.:04:53.

week. But this evening I'm seeing some Borre happy Cabinet ministers.

:04:54.:04:58.

One said to me, that was a slam dunk win for Theresa May. This was the

:04:59.:05:08.

last debate and it will define the last few days. Our policy editor

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Chris Cook has been taking a look at this debate. Here is his report.

:05:12.:05:12.

Tonight is the final event in this debate series... May

:05:13.:05:25.

versus Corbyn. Well, not really. It was May and then Corbyn. The Prime

:05:26.:05:32.

Minister insisted that they appear separately. And you can see some of

:05:33.:05:36.

her logic. She used the opportunity to kick lumps out of her opponents

:05:37.:05:41.

when they couldn't retort. You have Diane Abbott who can't add up

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sitting around the Cabinet table. John McDonnell, who is a Marxist.

:05:46.:05:49.

Nicola Sturgeon, who wants to break our country up. And Tim Farron who

:05:50.:05:54.

wants to bring us back into the EU, the direct opposite of what the

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British people want. The audience though gave her a pretty rough time.

:05:58.:06:02.

Refusing to answer people's questions, refusing to talk to

:06:03.:06:07.

Jeremy Corbyn. A Prime Minister and potential future Prime Minister

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doesn't understand the difference between a learning disability and

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the mental health condition. I had called an election... For the good

:06:19.:06:22.

of the Conservative Party, you have called a general election for the

:06:23.:06:24.

good of the Conservative Party and it will backfire on you. Including

:06:25.:06:30.

an Brexit. Do you really think you have any real leveraged with

:06:31.:06:34.

Brussels? An area where she has a rather well drilled response. I

:06:35.:06:38.

think we can negotiate a good deal, because a good deal in trade terms

:06:39.:06:43.

is not just of benefit to the UK, it is of benefit to businesses in the

:06:44.:06:47.

remaining countries in the European Union. Social care was where Mrs May

:06:48.:06:52.

had her weakest section. She pretended there hadn't been a U-turn

:06:53.:06:56.

involved in announcing a cap on social care costs. I heard the

:06:57.:07:00.

scaremongering that came out after our manifesto was published. And I

:07:01.:07:06.

set out one of the details, the aspects that would have been in the

:07:07.:07:09.

consultation, which is about having a cap on the absolute level. There

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is a flaw of ?100,000, you can protect 100000 and we will consult

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on watch and by the cap. This killer question was one she could not give

:07:20.:07:23.

a meaningful answer. You can tell us what the floor is now. Why can't you

:07:24.:07:28.

tell us the cap? APPLAUSE

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There was a run of concerns about austerity too, including mental

:07:32.:07:35.

health, schools bending and public sector pay. I've been working as a

:07:36.:07:40.

nurse for 26 years. Do the Tories expect our support in light of the

:07:41.:07:45.

1% pay increase? That is where Mr Corbyn was most comfortable, making

:07:46.:07:49.

a clear defence of a bigger state. We are asking the very biggest

:07:50.:07:52.

corporations to pay a bit more. But I'll cull you what, I think it's

:07:53.:07:57.

worth it. It's worth it so that any young person can go to university

:07:58.:08:00.

and not leave with debt, to make sure that school head teachers do

:08:01.:08:08.

not have to collect at the school gate in order to pay the teachers'

:08:09.:08:11.

salaries. Mr Corbyn, who started out pretty relaxed, lost his ribbon

:08:12.:08:13.

after being pressed several times on whether he would use our nuclear

:08:14.:08:16.

deterrent if we were attacked. The reality is that we have to obviously

:08:17.:08:22.

try to protect ourselves. We would not use it as first use. And, if we

:08:23.:08:27.

did use it, millions are going to die. You have to think this drink

:08:28.:08:30.

through. APPLAUSE

:08:31.:08:33.

-- you have to think this thing through. Would you use it as second

:08:34.:08:41.

use, or would you allow North Korea or some idiot in Iran to bomb us and

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then say, oh, we'd better start talking. You'd be too late! He was

:08:48.:08:53.

also pressed on his 1980s contact with Irish republicans. There has to

:08:54.:08:57.

be a coming together at some point. You were talking to them, they were

:08:58.:09:01.

killing women and children and you were talking to them. There has to

:09:02.:09:04.

be... Well, I was talking to representatives of the republican

:09:05.:09:11.

movement, yes. Actually, so was the Government at the same time. So this

:09:12.:09:15.

debate can tell us a lot we didn't know. These two politicians have

:09:16.:09:19.

vulnerabilities. But by now, that's hardly a surprise. That was Chris

:09:20.:09:23.

Cook. Joining me now from York,

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Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson. Foreign Secretary, thank you for

:09:25.:09:28.

joining us. We're used to hearing strong

:09:29.:09:30.

and stable from Theresa May. Well, I think... She spoke for

:09:31.:09:47.

herself. She gave a commanding performance, and it came across

:09:48.:09:51.

very, very clearly that she's in well Min Lee the best candidate to

:09:52.:09:55.

be Prime Minister on Friday of next week -- overwhelmingly. Strong and

:09:56.:10:00.

stable was how she wanted to be seen. She emanated both virtues. Her

:10:01.:10:05.

answers were clear, they were concise. She got through a lot of

:10:06.:10:10.

them. Yes, she had some tough questioning, but I think when you

:10:11.:10:14.

contrast Jeremy Corbyn's performance and his... The difficulty he had

:10:15.:10:18.

with some pretty elementary questions about the defence of this

:10:19.:10:23.

country, about the Brexit negotiations... Let's talk about

:10:24.:10:27.

her. The audience didn't see strong and stable tonight, did they? They

:10:28.:10:30.

said she wobbled and backtracked, her so will their words, not mine.

:10:31.:10:37.

On social care, she still hasn't been able to admit that it was a

:10:38.:10:40.

U-turn. She talks about wanting to be honest but you can't admit that

:10:41.:10:44.

the cap on social care was something she thinks has now got wrong and she

:10:45.:10:48.

changed her mind. That's not strong and stable at all. On the contrary,

:10:49.:10:53.

I think she gave a very full answer to the whole question of social

:10:54.:10:57.

care, and she spelt out once again this is to stop people having to go

:10:58.:11:00.

through the agony of selling their homes to pay the care whilst they

:11:01.:11:05.

are alive whilst raising the threshold to ?100,000 so that you

:11:06.:11:09.

can pass on when you die. Yes, we are going to consult on the cap.

:11:10.:11:13.

There are difficulties with the cap being regressive, as she explained

:11:14.:11:17.

very clearly. I think the audience got that, and it was actually a

:11:18.:11:25.

useful exchange. But when you came to Jeremy Corbyn on the defence of

:11:26.:11:28.

our country. I mean, we've invested ?31 billion in the Trident... We

:11:29.:11:31.

will be talking about Labour, Jeremy Corbyn and Trident, I assure you...

:11:32.:11:39.

But we are talking about the Conservatives' message tonight,

:11:40.:11:44.

which is her message is about hard-working families, Foreign

:11:45.:11:46.

Secretary, that is something we have heard all the way through. She wants

:11:47.:11:50.

to talk to hard-working families. We heard tonight in the and say to her

:11:51.:11:54.

that she is earning the same money that she was in 2009. Theresa May

:11:55.:12:00.

said, there no magic money tree. That's pretty condescending, isn't

:12:01.:12:04.

it, for somebody who has seen 14% less money in real terms, that's

:12:05.:12:08.

what she said tonight. No, what you pointed out, we have already spent

:12:09.:12:17.

half ?1 trillion on the NHS. She was talking to a nurse who hasn't seen

:12:18.:12:21.

her salary go up in real terms since 2009. I understand, nobody minimises

:12:22.:12:27.

the difficulties that are facing. As Theresa May is just said, we have to

:12:28.:12:32.

be prudent public expenditure. It is the cause of that that we can put ?8

:12:33.:12:36.

billion into the NHS to continue to improve that great service -- it is

:12:37.:12:40.

because of that. You can only do that if you have a strong economy. I

:12:41.:12:43.

know you don't want me to talk about the policies of the Labour Party...

:12:44.:12:52.

When -- if I can... To condescend to a guy who was running a small

:12:53.:12:56.

business and want to whack up his taxes with no understanding of the

:12:57.:12:59.

damage that does to the productivity of the UK economy, the ability of

:13:00.:13:03.

our economy to generate the tax revenue that we need to pay for the

:13:04.:13:08.

NHS and other public services. You can confirm what Michael Fallon told

:13:09.:13:12.

the Telegraph, there will be no increase in in contact under this

:13:13.:13:15.

Conservative parliament if you win. Is that correct -- in income tax. We

:13:16.:13:22.

have already taken 4 million of the lowest paid out of tax. No increase

:13:23.:13:27.

in income tax, is that what you will pledge? We will bear down on

:13:28.:13:31.

taxation, we have no plans to raise income tax. Note signs for the high

:13:32.:13:38.

earners, you have just talk to me about being prudent and having to

:13:39.:13:42.

make choices and not paying in nurse more than 1%, so there will be no

:13:43.:13:47.

increase in income tax, even for high earners, write? Our plans are

:13:48.:13:52.

to cut taxes. Flavour's plans are to put them up. And to keep putting

:13:53.:13:57.

them up -- Labour's plans. Funding unnecessary things such as

:13:58.:14:00.

renationalising the utilities on the railways. And necessary things like

:14:01.:14:05.

a nurse's wagers. A colossal expense. It's by having a strong

:14:06.:14:15.

economy, by believing in this country and getting the right Brexit

:14:16.:14:18.

deal above all that we will have the revenues, we will have the tax

:14:19.:14:21.

revenues we need to pay for great public services. Let's get onto

:14:22.:14:23.

foreign affairs. It's lovely to have the Foreign Secretary here. In the

:14:24.:14:26.

last 24 hours, Donald Trump has walked away from the most

:14:27.:14:28.

significant global deal to save the planet. And the best we have heard

:14:29.:14:33.

from Theresa May is that it is disappointing. That sounds like what

:14:34.:14:36.

you'd say when a souffle doesn't make it!

:14:37.:14:41.

Everyone remembers that Bill Clinton, who was much loved by the

:14:42.:14:49.

liberal left and all the rest of it, did not ratify the Kyoto protocol,

:14:50.:14:53.

and yet America has met its obligations there. Let's see what

:14:54.:14:59.

Donald Trump does before we waive our finger at him and accused him of

:15:00.:15:07.

things. I think it would be better, as I said to Rex Tillerson and all

:15:08.:15:13.

our counterparts across Government in America, that it would have been

:15:14.:15:16.

much better to go with the original thing. But it didn't work. He made a

:15:17.:15:23.

clear commitment to his electorate before the American election that he

:15:24.:15:30.

would do just this. And the best special relationship can say is

:15:31.:15:35.

disappointing. We can work to reduce CO2. Huge steps have been

:15:36.:15:41.

accomplished at on both sides of the Atlantic to do this. We have reduced

:15:42.:15:48.

it and so have the Americans. Fried didn't Britain partake in the joint

:15:49.:15:54.

letter? As you heard the Prime Minister say very well, she doesn't

:15:55.:15:59.

have to tag along with a bunch of other signatories. Tag along? So we

:16:00.:16:07.

are tagging along now, is it? She was talking to the Americans in a

:16:08.:16:11.

way that those other leaders won't. She made her view clear. We are

:16:12.:16:17.

going to work with the Americans nonetheless to continue to tackle

:16:18.:16:22.

climate change, which is the right thing to do. You did mean the office

:16:23.:16:27.

of Foreign Secretary. People are starting to talk about whether you

:16:28.:16:30.

will keep your job after the election, and when you talk about

:16:31.:16:34.

tagging along with foreign leaders, it just demeans your office. I

:16:35.:16:39.

simply fail to understand what you're saying. It is completely

:16:40.:16:44.

right of the Prime Minister to ring up the American president to express

:16:45.:16:49.

the position of the British Government in terms that I think

:16:50.:16:55.

were loud and clear. Our job, unlike Jeremy Corbyn, the most

:16:56.:16:58.

anti-American leader of the Labour Party I can remember, we have

:16:59.:17:01.

considerable ability to help the Americans. Do you think people who

:17:02.:17:13.

criticise Donald Trump are just whingeing? I will give some

:17:14.:17:18.

examples, if I may. One of them is obviously over the air run deal,

:17:19.:17:22.

which Jeremy Corbyn alluded to several times. Britain has worked

:17:23.:17:27.

with the Americans so they haven't scrapped the Iran nuclear deal,

:17:28.:17:31.

which had been a risk. We are working with them on their policy

:17:32.:17:34.

for the Middle East peace process, where Donald Trump has shown great

:17:35.:17:44.

interest. If you look at the actions of America in Syria, their treatment

:17:45.:17:48.

of Russia, they are far more proactive now in dealing with the

:17:49.:17:52.

atrocities being committed by Assad. And that is very much, I believe,

:17:53.:18:00.

thanks to the intercessions of the UK Government and a powerful

:18:01.:18:03.

relationship that has been developed between us. Theresa May did not back

:18:04.:18:17.

you at the time. We haven't had any such requests, and all I can say is

:18:18.:18:24.

that on the two occasions when the Americans have taken action, I think

:18:25.:18:33.

they had a material impact on the calculations of the Russians and of

:18:34.:18:38.

the Assad regime. Do you think you will be in a job next week? That is

:18:39.:18:42.

something that the Obama administration absolutely failed to

:18:43.:18:46.

do, and I think part of that success is thanks to UK diplomacy. As for

:18:47.:18:52.

your questions about the job that I may have. I want, if at all

:18:53.:18:59.

possible, to be the MP for Uxbridge and South Ruislip. Equally important

:19:00.:19:06.

is that we get the right person leading our Brexit negotiations, and

:19:07.:19:10.

tonight, it was absolutely clear to me that there is only one person who

:19:11.:19:15.

can conceivably do this, the division and firmness of purpose,

:19:16.:19:19.

and that is Theresa May. Thank you very much. I don't agree with -- I

:19:20.:19:24.

don't disagree with the analysis that this was a heavy victory for

:19:25.:19:32.

her tonight. Thanks for your time. Following Theresa May came Jeremy

:19:33.:19:36.

Corbyn. He faced questions from the audience, from the hosts, David

:19:37.:19:44.

Dimbleby. We are joined by Ian Lavery, Labour's national elections

:19:45.:19:52.

and campaign coordinator. He can miraculously join us where you might

:19:53.:19:54.

have seen Boris Johnson a few seconds ago. A lot of this, as you

:19:55.:19:58.

heard from the Foreign Secretary and the audience tonight, came down to

:19:59.:20:04.

that one question - security. Everything to Jeremy Corbyn tonight

:20:05.:20:07.

centred on whether the public and the audience trust him with the

:20:08.:20:13.

nation's security. I think Jeremy answered very sincerely and honestly

:20:14.:20:16.

tonight, as always. I thought it was a tremendous performance. He stood

:20:17.:20:22.

there, took the questions, answered every single one, unlike Theresa

:20:23.:20:27.

May, who has had a disastrous campaign. And what you have just

:20:28.:20:31.

seen there before is a job interview by Boris Johnson, very intriguing

:20:32.:20:37.

stuff. Jeremy Corbyn performed exceptionally well tonight. The

:20:38.:20:41.

trouble is, though, the same questions have plagued him right the

:20:42.:20:44.

way through this campaign, and it wasn't from journalists tonight,

:20:45.:20:50.

from the BBC and the media, but from members of the public, and it

:20:51.:20:54.

suggests that there is baggage that surrounds him, questions about his

:20:55.:20:58.

relationship to terrorism, to the IRA, to nuclear weapons. You can't

:20:59.:21:05.

get past that, can you? Jeremy Bowen sub that fully tonight. He said, for

:21:06.:21:09.

example, that for many years, the only way to ensure that we have

:21:10.:21:13.

resolutions to conflicts across the globe would be to have constructive

:21:14.:21:19.

dialogue, discussions. At times, it's not very favourable. At times,

:21:20.:21:29.

you might have to speak to people who you really don't want to. And

:21:30.:21:34.

Jeremy explained that. With regard to the IRA, he explained that he

:21:35.:21:38.

spoke to people from across the piece, nationalists and unionists.

:21:39.:21:42.

Look at the solution we've got, we got the Good Friday agreement,

:21:43.:21:49.

peace, and that is because Jeremy and his like think it is right to

:21:50.:21:53.

consult with people across the piece. Jeremy Corbyn didn't take

:21:54.:21:58.

part in the peace process. He didn't call the IRA terrorists. He could

:21:59.:22:01.

have shut that down, and he could have said what he would do with the

:22:02.:22:05.

nuclear button and a second response. He didn't. I'm not

:22:06.:22:11.

suggesting for one minute that Jeremy Corbyn took part in any

:22:12.:22:15.

discussions. What he did say was that at the time when he was

:22:16.:22:19.

discussing with all parts of the community in Northern Ireland, that

:22:20.:22:22.

the Government were doing that at the same time, Margaret Thatcher's

:22:23.:22:26.

Government, which was interesting. They were right at the time, because

:22:27.:22:31.

what we want to see what we have now is a peaceful solution to the

:22:32.:22:33.

situation in Northern Ireland. Surely, that is what we all want.

:22:34.:22:38.

Would you accept that until Jeremy Corbyn can make those sorts of

:22:39.:22:41.

questions go away from members of the public that were facing into

:22:42.:22:49.

night, from people watching at home and thinking the same thing is, that

:22:50.:22:51.

he cannot be trusted with the nation's security? Jeremy Corbyn be

:22:52.:22:56.

trusted with national security. That isn't in any doubt, and he explained

:22:57.:23:03.

that tonight, very clearly, that he takes the national security of this

:23:04.:23:07.

country extremely seriously. One of the differences between Jeremy and

:23:08.:23:10.

the Conservatives is that Jeremy believes in preventing further

:23:11.:23:16.

conflict, in discussion and negotiation with countries across

:23:17.:23:21.

the globe. He doesn't want to wait until the final seconds to run and

:23:22.:23:28.

press a button that perhaps could incinerate millions of human beings.

:23:29.:23:32.

I think that's sensible and I think that's what people want - dialogue,

:23:33.:23:37.

discussion, honesty, sincerity, agreement that this will never, ever

:23:38.:23:42.

happen. We don't want people running towards the button and trying to get

:23:43.:23:46.

there before each other to kill off the human race. It's absurd. Ian

:23:47.:23:49.

Lavery, thank you very much indeed. Meanwhile, at the end of what has

:23:50.:23:52.

probably felt like a long week for Theresa May,

:23:53.:23:55.

we heard that a Conservative candidate is facing charges over his

:23:56.:23:57.

2015 general election expenses. Craig Mackinlay says

:23:58.:23:59.

he's done nothing wrong, and will continue to fight to be

:24:00.:24:01.

re-elected next week with The Crown Prosecution Service says

:24:02.:24:04.

it's charged Mr Mackinlay, who defeated Nigel Farage

:24:05.:24:12.

in South Thanet in one of the constituency battles

:24:13.:24:14.

of the night, with offences under the Representation

:24:15.:24:16.

of the People Act. David Grossman has

:24:17.:24:19.

been to South Thanet, Is this battlebus full

:24:20.:24:21.

of Conservative activists visiting South Thanet in the 2015 general

:24:22.:24:26.

election part of national It might seem like a dull question,

:24:27.:24:28.

but the two are treated differently, Knowingly failing to declare

:24:29.:24:35.

election spending correctly The then-victorious candidate,

:24:36.:24:40.

Craig Mackinlay, has been charged with two offences relating

:24:41.:24:48.

to election spending Also charged are his election

:24:49.:24:50.

agent, Nathan Gray, and a party organiser,

:24:51.:25:03.

Marion Little. Back in 2015, this was the front

:25:04.:25:04.

line of the Conservatives' It was such a Ukip-supporting area

:25:05.:25:07.

that Nigel Farage had chosen it The Tories thought if they could

:25:08.:25:11.

beat him here, well, they could hold back the tide

:25:12.:25:15.

of Ukip nationally. The defeated Ukip candidate in 2015

:25:16.:25:18.

was out campaigning in Clacton today, chatting to journalists,

:25:19.:25:21.

when an aide starts trying Right, that's big

:25:22.:25:24.

news, OK, thank you. Well, effectively what it means

:25:25.:25:34.

in that constituency is that, whilst his name will stay

:25:35.:25:42.

on the ballot paper, I think the chances of people voting

:25:43.:25:45.

for him are now very slim, so I think that constituency will be

:25:46.:25:49.

a straight fight now between Ukip and the Labour Party,

:25:50.:25:52.

and I will be there tomorrow afternoon giving a speech at 5pm

:25:53.:25:55.

to support our candidate. And what do you think it means more

:25:56.:26:01.

broadly in the context of seven days Well, once again it's bad

:26:02.:26:04.

judgment from Theresa May. But why on Earth would you allow

:26:05.:26:09.

someone to go ahead as a general election candidate when this cloud

:26:10.:26:12.

was clearly hanging over him? In a statement today,

:26:13.:26:15.

Mr Mackinlay said... On election night 2015,

:26:16.:26:31.

I was staying at this hotel in Ramsgate, ready to cover

:26:32.:26:34.

the count the next morning, when who should I bump into,

:26:35.:26:39.

also staying here, but a very senior party worker from

:26:40.:26:42.

Conservative Central Office. Just keeping an eye on things,

:26:43.:26:45.

was the casual reply. It turned out that a whole team

:26:46.:26:51.

of Conservative Party workers had been staying here and at another

:26:52.:26:56.

hotel off and on throughout They racked up hotel bills

:26:57.:26:58.

of thousands of pounds, But should the money have

:26:59.:27:05.

been declared as local If so, it would have

:27:06.:27:09.

taken his spending well South Thanet was the last

:27:10.:27:14.

remaining open investigation Last month, the CPS decided

:27:15.:27:20.

against charging more than a dozen other candidates

:27:21.:27:26.

over similar allegations. In a statement today,

:27:27.:27:28.

the Conservative Party said they were confident that

:27:29.:27:31.

Mr Mackinlay would be cleared, meanwhile criticising

:27:32.:27:34.

what they called fragmented, Well, the Conservative Party

:27:35.:27:36.

continues to believe that these Craig Mackinlay is innocent

:27:37.:27:42.

until proven guilty, Mr Mackinlay, along with Nathan Gray

:27:43.:27:45.

and Marion Little, will appear We return to the issue of climate

:27:46.:27:51.

change. So, in the absence of America,

:27:52.:28:05.

it was China and Europe who came together and pledged to unite

:28:06.:28:08.

to save the planet - a sight few would have

:28:09.:28:11.

predicted five years ago. Preisdent Trump announced his

:28:12.:28:13.

withdrawal on Thursday, saying he believed that

:28:14.:28:14.

to participate in the pact would be to undermine the US economy,

:28:15.:28:17.

wipe out jobs, and put his country Is that how the rest

:28:18.:28:20.

of the world sees it? Joining me now is Todd Stern,

:28:21.:28:24.

former advisor on Climate Change to President Obama,

:28:25.:28:27.

who was the United State's Chief Negotiator on the 2015

:28:28.:28:29.

Paris Climate Agreement. Thanks very much, Emily, it's a

:28:30.:28:48.

pleasure to be here. Look, I think this is a terrible decision. It's

:28:49.:28:51.

bad for the United States in all sorts of ways. It's bad for the

:28:52.:28:55.

world and battle climate change. It's also a big diplomatic hit by

:28:56.:29:02.

the United States. In diplomacy, a country's reputation and standing

:29:03.:29:05.

and credibility matter above all. What the rest of the world is going

:29:06.:29:08.

to see here is that the United States has given them a slap in the

:29:09.:29:13.

face. The drug administration, President Trump, has given -- the

:29:14.:29:17.

Trump administration. It took years of work to get this deal gone. It is

:29:18.:29:22.

a balanced, fair and universal agreement, the first time a real,

:29:23.:29:27.

durable, effective climate agreement has been established after all these

:29:28.:29:31.

years of trying. I see no legitimate case for having pulled out. It's

:29:32.:29:36.

going to be quite damaging for the US. Boris Johnson a moment ago said

:29:37.:29:40.

that Bill Clinton never ratified Kyodo. Is that an equitable

:29:41.:29:46.

arrangement? -- Kyodo. I did hear that, and there is no legitimate

:29:47.:29:50.

comparison there. There is not a question of whether Bill Clinton,

:29:51.:29:56.

who I worked for, by the way, ratified the agreement. The

:29:57.:30:02.

agreement had a structure and a formation that had in reality no

:30:03.:30:06.

chance of getting ratified in the US Senate, that was too bad, we wanted

:30:07.:30:10.

it to happen but it just wasn't going to happen and it wasn't

:30:11.:30:14.

because President Clinton didn't try. Do you think China is taking

:30:15.:30:19.

the place of America? Is it emerging as the saviour of the planet? Well,

:30:20.:30:24.

I don't think China is the saviour of the planet but I will say that

:30:25.:30:27.

I'm glad that China is making clear that they intend to stay in the

:30:28.:30:34.

agreement and to continue with their pledges. That's important. Obviously

:30:35.:30:40.

the US and China together, the work that we did together, the diplomacy

:30:41.:30:43.

was enormously important to getting the agreement done. And it's a good

:30:44.:30:47.

thing that China wants to stay in. It's going to be also I think

:30:48.:30:52.

enormously important that Europe, including the UK, step up and play a

:30:53.:30:56.

leadership role. And many other countries around the world. So I

:30:57.:31:02.

wouldn't at all look at China as a saviour, that would be a real

:31:03.:31:06.

mistake. But China is an important player. There are many other

:31:07.:31:11.

important players. China, as the world's largest emitter at this

:31:12.:31:15.

point by far, obviously has a responsibility, and I'm glad to hear

:31:16.:31:19.

that President Xi Jinping seems to be saying that they intend to meet

:31:20.:31:23.

that responsibility. Todd Stern, thank you very much for joining us.

:31:24.:31:26.

Back to the election now, and our regular Friday panel.

:31:27.:31:28.

Paul Mason - Corbyn supporter and journalist.

:31:29.:31:32.

And Polly Mackenzie - former advisor to Nick Clegg.

:31:33.:31:34.

Very nice to see you all. A quick run through, who do you think one

:31:35.:31:43.

that debate? Where their winners and losers for you, Paul? I'm going to

:31:44.:31:47.

say this, you have been very good at not being to tribal up to this

:31:48.:31:52.

point! I have great hopes for honesty... I think what was wrong

:31:53.:31:55.

with that debate is that at this stage in the game we need expert

:31:56.:32:00.

people quizzing both sides. Hugh won was the politicians because they

:32:01.:32:04.

were not expertly quizzed. Neither of them was pushed to the limits of

:32:05.:32:13.

where their positions are because the audience... I think they were

:32:14.:32:15.

coming from an emotional position, which is where many voters come

:32:16.:32:17.

from. On things like nuclear, tonight this is the issue that

:32:18.:32:21.

Labour spin doctors want to avoid, I want to hit it head-on. The position

:32:22.:32:27.

is clear. No first use is incredibly new and innovative for the British

:32:28.:32:30.

nuclear military establishment, and yet nobody in the audience seemed to

:32:31.:32:34.

pick it up. I'm concerned that the quality of democracy we are going to

:32:35.:32:38.

get at the end of this election is one where, you know, two completely

:32:39.:32:41.

different politicians have really fail to be quizzed expertly in the

:32:42.:32:47.

weight that... That is very brave, saying the audience asked the wrong

:32:48.:32:52.

questions. When they are quizzed expertly, Corbyn supporters go on

:32:53.:32:56.

Twitter and troll them and call them Zionists asking hard questions.

:32:57.:33:02.

Obviously is wrong. But the point I'm trying to make is that we need

:33:03.:33:07.

to know now, what is the cap? It was said again and again, what is the

:33:08.:33:12.

cap on how much savings you lose from the dementia tax? We don't

:33:13.:33:17.

know. Polly, let me come to you. What did you feel? This was about

:33:18.:33:21.

the warmth at an audience has for whoever is on the stage, Hugh won

:33:22.:33:28.

that? I think Theresa May was better than she has been. She has had a

:33:29.:33:32.

wobble for the last ten days, but it feels like she's back on track, as

:33:33.:33:39.

good as she could be. You do have to have different phases. Andrew Neil

:33:40.:33:43.

taking people to pieces, but also people who can relate to human

:33:44.:33:47.

beings. Both of them were better than you would have expected on

:33:48.:33:50.

that. Politicians get found out when they are asked questions by real

:33:51.:33:55.

people, I see that every day on my radio show. It is the real voters,

:33:56.:33:59.

when they ask questions, politicians are sometimes like goldfish. We saw

:34:00.:34:03.

that tonight with Jeremy Corbyn. This was an important event, it had

:34:04.:34:12.

the highest audience of any interview programme so far, and I'm

:34:13.:34:15.

afraid, Paul, that Jeremy Corbyn was found out tonight. His remarks on

:34:16.:34:17.

terrorism, he could not bring himself to condemn the IRA. He

:34:18.:34:24.

condemned them. No, he didn't. On nuclear defence... This man is not

:34:25.:34:30.

fit... I don't want to rerun the debate. What I do want to say is, at

:34:31.:34:35.

the end of the week when we have seen an extraordinary diversity of

:34:36.:34:38.

polls in the way that we have and the two years or whatever, where

:34:39.:34:42.

would you put your number is now? If I come to you for maps, and I know

:34:43.:34:47.

you do this anyway as a hobby, you are going for a Tory majority, still

:34:48.:34:52.

worse plot yes, I am. Theresa May has had a bad week, let nobody

:34:53.:34:57.

denies that. Tonight she came out fighting. Any floating voter who

:34:58.:35:00.

watched that will have been more impressed by Theresa May than they

:35:01.:35:04.

thought they would be. In terms of numbers, at the start of this

:35:05.:35:11.

campaign I predicted a Tory majority of 74. Then I went through all of

:35:12.:35:15.

the constituencies on the basis of the opinion poll lead, I came out

:35:16.:35:19.

with a majority of 130, that has role so much rolled back, it will

:35:20.:35:23.

not be that high. But I still expect a landslide. About 100? 80 to 100. I

:35:24.:35:32.

think Iain is better as a detailed numbers, but the Tories will win

:35:33.:35:37.

this. 50, 75, whatever it is. What is depressing for me is that neither

:35:38.:35:41.

Theresa May more Jeremy Corbyn were particularly strong. They both have

:35:42.:35:45.

big areas of weakness. Stronger than Tim Farron! Nick Clegg is worried

:35:46.:35:50.

about his seat tonight, is that right? People said that Sheffield

:35:51.:35:57.

Hallam was going to be lost, but Nick won with a substantial

:35:58.:36:00.

majority. Is it conceivable that the Lib Dems could go back with this

:36:01.:36:06.

time? At elections, anything is conceivable. People pledged to eat

:36:07.:36:09.

their hats and look like idiots, or run down the street naked! Of

:36:10.:36:14.

course, anything is plausible. Like my promise in 2010! All that I can

:36:15.:36:20.

do is leave the range of polls, the maximum that Theresa May is going to

:36:21.:36:24.

get is ten extra seats, I would have thought. Seriously?! I hope there is

:36:25.:36:31.

money on this afterwards! Paul, in Corbyn HQ, can I just ask you, are

:36:32.:36:35.

they preparing for the possibility of it hung parliament or a wind.

:36:36.:36:39.

They are preparing for a possibility of a hung parliament or a win.

:36:40.:36:44.

People were talking about the Northern Irish, Welsh and Scottish

:36:45.:36:48.

governments on Brexit. They were not at the beginning of this, write?

:36:49.:36:53.

Absolutely not. Go back and look at the polls. The Rangers from a small

:36:54.:36:57.

Tory majority through to a hung parliament through to a minority...

:36:58.:37:03.

They are ahead, aren't they? I spent the whole of the 2050 election

:37:04.:37:07.

campaign preparing for it hung parliament. Wishing it is going to

:37:08.:37:09.

happen doesn't actually make it happen! You are believing the polls

:37:10.:37:15.

that you want to believe, not the majority. Labour very concerned

:37:16.:37:21.

about the turnout. On a high turnout of young people... And you have to

:37:22.:37:24.

get young people out, young people to put their money where their mouth

:37:25.:37:31.

is. If they don't vote Labour, it is ?9,000 on your university fees from

:37:32.:37:36.

September. He is also saying that students who have already gone

:37:37.:37:40.

through the University going to have their money refunded, this is

:37:41.:37:44.

fantasy politics. This feels like a personality race. The more people

:37:45.:37:48.

have seen of Jeremy Corbyn, it seems the more they have warmed to him.

:37:49.:37:53.

The more they have seen of Theresa May the less they have want to hurt.

:37:54.:37:58.

I generally believe tonight was a turning point -- the less they have

:37:59.:38:04.

warmed to her. I think you should apologise to what you said, the

:38:05.:38:09.

Trump playbook. Your side is calling my Vida terrorist. We have

:38:10.:38:15.

questioned... -- might lead a terrorist. Would you like to

:38:16.:38:20.

apologise for that? It is out of the Trump playbook. He is terrified of

:38:21.:38:26.

debating. It is legitimate to ask, where is she? You questioned her

:38:27.:38:29.

health, you should be ashamed of yourself. Do you think any of this

:38:30.:38:35.

cuts through? Some of it does. Reinforcing what we heard earlier,

:38:36.:38:39.

they all still feel the same. The policies are incredibly diverging in

:38:40.:38:42.

this election in the way that they haven't been recently. But you still

:38:43.:38:46.

get the sense that all of the politicians are kind of mediocre.

:38:47.:38:50.

Who do you think has played dirty? On, everybody. Do you? The future of

:38:51.:38:58.

the country is at stake. The other side is actually saying that Labour

:38:59.:39:02.

and the millions of people who support it or in some ways tainted

:39:03.:39:10.

by terrorism... Absolutely. Jeremy Corbyn has supported the IRA. You

:39:11.:39:16.

are digging the grave of consensus politics in this country. Labour

:39:17.:39:24.

supports the rule of law, anti-terrorist... I'm so sorry, we

:39:25.:39:27.

need to get to Steve Smith, he is on his bus. We need to go on.

:39:28.:39:40.

Finally... We will come back to Diane Abbott next week.

:39:41.:39:43.

Imagine the scene: A snap election is called, the Newsnight office

:39:44.:39:45.

From this creative huddle, a germ - in fact, lots of germs,

:39:46.:39:49.

A vision of red: A bus, a battle bus, with Stephen Smith on board,

:39:50.:39:54.

visiting constituencies that have been craving some election glamour -

:39:55.:39:56.

Tonight we bring you the last excursion.

:39:57.:40:01.

Welcome to our popular and acclaimed general election

:40:02.:40:04.

And if you can see this, it means we've had a second

:40:05.:40:08.

Let me refresh your memory about our high-quality format.

:40:09.:40:13.

We're attempting to sprinkle some election razzmatazz on the places

:40:14.:40:16.

Too rock-solid for them to rock up to in their wheels.

:40:17.:40:23.

We've come to the great city of Liverpool on our magical mystery

:40:24.:40:33.

tour, to another constituency that doesn't tend to see a lot in the way

:40:34.:40:37.

Liverpool's Fab Four constituencies are considered to be among

:40:38.:40:53.

We're in Walton, where the party romped home at the last election

:40:54.:40:59.

This constituency is so red that the Conservative candidate

:41:00.:41:06.

Walton's only a few square miles in size -

:41:07.:41:12.

all too easy for our charabanc to stray across the

:41:13.:41:15.

Looks like this bus is not returning.

:41:16.:41:25.

So why is it that election fun and games generally pass Walton by?

:41:26.:41:31.

If only there was a numbers-savvy prodigy to give this vehicle

:41:32.:41:33.

It's only Newsnight's Chris Cook, the Kitt to our Knight Rider,

:41:34.:41:42.

Liverpool Walton, it's fair to say, is a 1-party Labour seat.

:41:43.:41:49.

It's one of only five constituencies in Britain where the second-place

:41:50.:41:53.

party got no more than 10% of the vote.

:41:54.:41:58.

If the other parties last time around had been

:41:59.:42:00.

interested in fighting here, they could each have spent ?12,000

:42:01.:42:03.

But, in practice, the Conservatives, Ukip and the Liberal Democrats

:42:04.:42:10.

all together combined spent only ?3000 on their campaign here.

:42:11.:42:13.

It's really not a seat where the result is in question.

:42:14.:42:18.

After all these years, some facts in one of my investigative reports.

:42:19.:42:29.

So, do the folk here feel they've been taken for granted?

:42:30.:42:34.

Where better to take our bus to meet voters than the colourful bus stops

:42:35.:42:38.

How are you enjoying the election so far?

:42:39.:42:46.

How many of these battle buses have you seen so far?

:42:47.:43:03.

They only come when they really need you, don't they?

:43:04.:43:06.

It's pretty rock-solid, this seat, isn't it?

:43:07.:43:10.

If that is the problem, once they know they've got a safe

:43:11.:43:15.

Do you think it would help if you saw more of the party

:43:16.:43:19.

I sometimes feel like my MPs aren't always visible

:43:20.:43:31.

You sound like you take quite an interest in it, is that right?

:43:32.:43:36.

Because, I mean, it's affecting our future.

:43:37.:43:38.

We've had such a turbulent year for politics, haven't we,

:43:39.:43:41.

I hope your real bus comes along soon!

:43:42.:43:47.

You wait all Newsnight for a bus, and then two come along at once.

:43:48.:43:54.

Oh, it's one of those natty convertible numbers.

:43:55.:43:58.

Would you swap your Liverpool tour bus for our Newsnight battlebus?

:43:59.:44:04.

Newsnight battlebus, come and have a chat about the election!

:44:05.:44:10.

This is Steven Smith with the number one tour bus in Liverpool.

:44:11.:44:26.

He is in Bristol with a full programme then.

:44:27.:44:53.

With Emily Maitlis. Analysis of the May and Corbyn Question Time with Boris Johnson. Plus Conservative MP in Thanet is charged over expenses and Obama's climate envoy on the Paris Accord.


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