The London Attack Newsnight


The London Attack

All the latest analysis in the aftermath of the London Bridge attacks, including interviews with Baroness Warsi, Chuka Umunna and Trump aide Sebastian Gorka.


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Two days after the London Bridge attack, these

:00:00.:00:00.

But remarkably, in one case, Khuram Butt, his jihadism seemed

:00:07.:00:15.

How on earth was it allowed to end up in a murderous

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I was one of the chief radicalisers and recruiters for Al-Qaeda here in

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the United States from 2007 until my arrest in 2011. I would say he

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appeared on our radar rather late, but was an active member.

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We'll reflect on some of the awkward choices now facing us

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To the sick and evil extremists who commit

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these hideous crimes, we will defeat you.

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Believe it or not, the US president has taken exception

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"After Donald Trump's tweets, I have learned that Whitehall

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is going cold on his proposed state visit."

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We'll get the White House view from this Trump advisor.

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As the city returns to wary normality, how should

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It's tough when you've got children and you're dropping them at school a

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road away from where it happened. You don't feel necessarily safe,

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doing that, but life has to go on. We'll debate the best way

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to root out extremism. London got back to normal

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today, it has to really. But the word "normal" has

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an ominous connotation. Is terror on the streets a normality

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to which we now have Is it set to become like the ghastly

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shooting sprees in the US, where the angrily insane too

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frequently manage to kill several As it happens, a disgruntled

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employee did that in Orlando in Florida today, taking the lives

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of five others. Well, no country can be relaxed

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about random murder, and so it is no surprise that here,

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the London Bridge attack has had political fallout,

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and it has led to inevitable soul-searching as to

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whether we are preventing attacks One of the attackers

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was a well-known jihadi - he had mixed with other prominent

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extremists. John Sweeney has been piecing

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together what we know about him, These are the faces of two of the

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three men who killed seven people on London Bridge on Saturday night.

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Rachid Redouane is a Moroccan with Irish nationality, of whom little is

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known. The identity of a second killer has not yet been revealed by

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the police. But the third, Khuram Butt, was the jihadi killer who not

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just hid in plain sight, he starred in a TV documentary. This way lads,

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lads, lads. Come here. The group display the black flag of zraum, a

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symbol associated with Islamic armies for 1200 years... The

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26-year-old from barking made little secret of his sympathy for so-called

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Islamic State. Here he is praying by an Islamist flag used by IS. This is

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the home of Khuram Butt. Blue tarp of the police forensic team there.

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There have been three terrorist attacks on Britain in the last three

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months. Westminster bridge, the attacker, there were few clues to

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the likelihood that Masood would do what he did. Salman Abedi, there

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were some clues, but to be fair to the police, they were fuzzy. But

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this man, the bad news is - there were a ton of clues that he was a

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potential jihadi suspect. Newsnight spoke to his neighbours who, off cam

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ra, told us he was well known locally for rebuking Muslim women

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who didn't wear hijabs and for inviting non-Muslim children to join

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the faith. This man knew him as a neighbour. It's really sad to know

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what happened, it's really like honestly really sad. I am just

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feeling like he might be being used by someone or brainwashed by

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someone. Two witnesses told us Khuram Butt had prayed at this

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mosque. Hello, hi, from BBC Newsnight. We understand that one of

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the attackers at London Bridge used to attend this mosque and apparently

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came here on Friday, is that right? Well, I never come on Friday here. I

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don't know nothing I can't tell you anything about that. There are

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mosques in the East End which have hosted extremist preachers in the

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past. But this isn't one of them. They commit these atrocities in the

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name of Islam. Our Koran doesn't allow people to do or act against

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humanity or killing or any kind of terrorism. It is very clear. Khuram

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Butt had been a member of Al-Muhajiroun an Islamist extremist

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group banned in 2005, but so well penetrated by the police and

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Security Services that its adherents were often not seen by a great

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threat. After Saturday night, that assumption no longer stands. Khuram

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Butt was a member of Al-Muhajiroun going back some years. I was one of

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the chief radicalisers and recruiters for Al-Qaeda here in the

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United States from approximately 2007 till my arrest in 2011. I would

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say he appeared on our radar rather late but was an active member inside

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of our communication platform services that we offered to those we

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were attempting to radicalise. He was an administrator in a

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pro-Al-Muhajiroun room. I had intimate connection was him. We

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would frequently speak before they would. Add an administrator he would

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have to communicate with me about the length of my speeches, the

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couldn't tent of my speeches and how they might blend with the preachers

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that would follow -- content. Questions for the Muslim community

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but also for the police and for the people who work in the building

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behind me. MI5. It's their job to gather intelligence so that they can

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protect us. And clearly, they've failed. There were a lot of red

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flags to the ring leader of the London Bridge attacks. But, to be

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fair, their long list of potential jihadi suspects has got 23,000 names

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on it. The short list 3,000 names on it. Have they failed, yes. Were they

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bound to fail? The answer to that is also, regrettably, yes. More than a

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dozen jihadi plots in Britain have been thwarted in the last few years.

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But in the past three months, something has shifted. The people

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making all the running are those who create terror. The Met confirmed

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tonight that all of the 12 people they arrested in the wake of the

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attack have been released without charge. But the investigation into

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the attackers and their associates carries on.

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Our correspondent Richard Watson has covered Islamist extremists

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The name Al-Muhajiroun is not unfamiliar to you, what is the

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significance of the man's link to that? It's very significant, think

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I. I remember I started investigating Al-Muhajiroun in 2000,

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before 9/11. I was filming in East London 2004 where they celebrated

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the 9/11 attacks as being the magnificent night in terror. They

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are very dangerous. They have dangerous views. In the early 2000s

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they were dismissed as fools. I remember speaking to a member of the

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joint intelligence committee at the time and he told me that there was a

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failure of imagination about the consequences of harbouring these

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kind of extremists in our society. What are the Security Services

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saying today? Well, I spoke to a security source tonight and

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interestingly, he didn't really say that they were avenue resources or

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new laws. Very worried about speaking about anything too firm in

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the election week of course, but I got the distinct impression that the

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resources are not the major issue. There are two major issues about

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softer ways of approaching this problem. Number one - do you attack

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the ideology as the Prime Minister, Theresa May, has been suggesting? Or

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do you look for longer term solutions giving young people who

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are potentially drawn down this path alternative avenues and alternative

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sense of belonging to bring society? Thank you very much.

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Normally, the political rule is that right-wing parties score more highly

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with the public on security issues than left-wing parties.

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But it is a measure of how strange politics is at the moment,

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that much of today has seen the Conservatives on the defensive

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over whether Theresa May as Home Secretary had allowed cuts

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There was a vigil in London this evening,

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just next to City Hall, at which the mayor,

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Just after that event, I asked him if resources

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are an issue for the fight against terror.

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Well, I've been saying now for months, in fact

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since I first became the mayor, that we need more

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That over the last seven years the Met police

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As a result, the Met police has had to reduce staff, 3,000 staff lost,

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closed police stations, and over the course of the next

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three years, there are plans to cut a further ?400 million

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There are plans to change the police funding formula which means

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we could lose up to another several million pounds and it's

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We are a global city, we know we are a target for the terrorists,

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we've got to do all that we can to keep our city safe.

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And one of the first things I did as mayor was to approve

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I don't believe all our officers should be armed but I do believe

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in having a decent number of highly trained armed officers,

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to make sure they can respond quickly and swiftly as they did

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And are you finding Theresa May is receptive of that message?

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Well, look I've been lobbying unsuccessfully

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for the last 13 months, and it's really important

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that the government of the day recognises we need more resources

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And my job as the Mayor of London, whose primary focus has to be

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the security of London, I'm not going to be afraid

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of saying, we are not getting the resources we need.

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We have lost resources over the last seven years and the current

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government's plans for the next three years are further

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That will have an impact on London, whether it's officers lost,

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whether it's other resources being lost, and I'll tell you this.

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I speak to the experts regularly and the experts tell me one

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of the best ways to keep us safe is policing by consent.

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Members of the public having confidence in the police to give

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them intelligence about people they are worried about.

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People who are dodgy, people who have become radicalised.

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And that's why I've restored neighbourhood policing.

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We can only do that with resources, you know, more bobbies on the beat

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Sadiq Khan the Mayor of London speaking to me earlier.

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Police resources are an issue, but, of course, anti-terror

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The powers of the security forces to shoot

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to kill, for example, or listen in on private conversations.

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On these, the Tories feel themselves on firmer ground.

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The election campaign was back in full swing today,

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and Nick Watt looks at how terror has affected it.

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Even the most finely tuned election campaign can hit unexpected bumps.

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Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn are finding that their past is catching

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up with them, as they seek to persuade voters they are best placed

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to deal with terrorism. So, please, for your sake and for the thousands

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of police officers who work so hard every day, this crying wolf has to

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stop. The Prime Minister's claim that she is the strongest guardian

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of the nation's security sits uncomfortably next to the cut in

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police officers during her time as Home Secretary. We have a debate

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about anti-terror legislation in Parliament the other day. Now I've

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been involved in opposing anti-terror legislation ever since I

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first went into Parliament in 1983. And the claim by the Labour leader

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that he would consider whatever proposals the police and Security

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Services bring forward doesn't quite chime with his record as a

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backbenchers. Backbenchers this was meant to be the Brexit election.

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Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn both believe the attacks in Manchester

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and here at London Bridge highlight weaknesses in their opponent. But

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there are also pit falls for the two leaders. The Prime Minister found

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herself under strong pressure today over police numbers. Belt tightening

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by the coalition Government saw police numbers fall by around 20,000

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between 2010 and 2015. Theresa May claimed today there will be an

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uplift in the number of armed police officers, but the number of armed

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police officers fell from around 7,000 in 2010 to just over 5,500 in

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2016. The Government committed last year to recruit an extra 1500 by

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20201 -- 2021. Our demands placed on the Police Service is changing. We

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are becoming more responsive rather than looking for things, rather than

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being proactive in our delivery to the public and engaging with the

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public. We can't continue to do that. That's Fire Service policing.

:14:31.:14:35.

We need to engage more with our communities. We need to ensure that

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the intelligence coming from them is able to be acted upon. Then there

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are questions about the Prime Minister's claim that Britain has

:14:43.:14:47.

been too tolerant of extremism when she said - enough is enough. You've

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said that the time has come to tackle not just violent extremism

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but extremist ideology, does that mean that you've changed your mind.

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You'll remember you had a public row with Michael Gove in 2014 when he

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said you and your officials were prepared to tackle violent extremism

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but not extremist ideology. I've been very, very clear throughout

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that it wasn't just about violent extremism, it was about extremism.

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That's why, when I was Home Secretary, we introduced the

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counterextremism strategy. You can look back. I've made various

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speeches over the years, where I have said we do need to deal with

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extremism not just the violent extremism. I wasn't, to be frank,

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what sure she meant by enough is enough. Given that she has been in

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Central Command in this area for seven years. A lot of work has gone

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on. Our security and intelligence services an the police work really

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hard. We need to reflect and wait to see whether this is a resources

:15:50.:15:52.

issue or intelligence issue or analysis issue. Clearly three

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incidents in three months is deep cause for concern.

:15:56.:16:01.

times Keir Starmer was speaking at a meeting of unions representing

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emergency workers who condemned the cut in police numbers, critics might

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say to deflect attention from Jeremy Corbyn 's voting record opposing

:16:13.:16:16.

anti-terror legislation. The sombre atmosphere across the country was

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reflected in a vigil in London this evening. Never before has Britain

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seen two major terror attacks in an election campaign, whatever the

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result, the impact of these past two weeks will be felt for many years to

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come. There is another political dimension

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to this involving the United States and Donald Trump and his reaction to

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the tragedy on Saturday. Tell us how it played out. Donald Trump has

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criticised Sadiq Khan after appearing to misunderstand the clear

:16:56.:16:59.

statement from the London Mayor on Sunday that Londoners should not be

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alarmed by the increased police presence in the city after the

:17:05.:17:08.

London Bridge attack. In a tweet on Sunday that we should be able to

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see, you see that the president suggested that Sadiq Khan was saying

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that people should not be alarmed by terrorism. Sadiq Khan's

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office made it clear that the president had completely distorted

:17:36.:17:37.

his remarks. But then the president came back today with another tweet

:17:38.:17:40.

and he accuses the mayor of making a pathetic excuse after his remarks on

:17:41.:17:42.

the no reason to be alarmed statement. M S M means mainstream

:17:43.:17:45.

media. What has been the reaction. One minister said this, President

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Trump has dug himself a whole but is not magnanimous enough to dig

:17:49.:17:51.

himself out of it. And this does raise interesting questions about

:17:52.:17:54.

the proposed state visit by Donald Trump to this country. Remember that

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Theresa May quick off the mark may be off in January. Tonight on

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Channel 4 News Sadiq Khan said that state visit should not go ahead. And

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interestingly it is becoming pretty clear in Whitehall that that state

:18:10.:18:14.

visit is not likely to happen any time soon. One Whitehall source told

:18:15.:18:20.

me that for the last few months the visit has been in the "Pretty long

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and getting longer grass". It appears the president is concerned

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about the opposition he is likely to meet in this country and they will

:18:29.:18:32.

be few tears shed in Whitehall if it doesn't happen. I get the impression

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that were Jeremy Corbyn to become Prime Minister on Friday I would not

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be surprised if he cancelled that visit. , Nick, thank you very much.

:18:42.:18:45.

I spoke a little earlier about this to Sebastian Gorka,

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one of President Trump's national security advisors.

:18:48.:18:51.

Why was the president twitting criticism of a London Mayor at this

:18:52.:18:59.

particular time? Yeah. Let's talk about that for a moment. But if this

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is going to be another discussion about a tweet for six minutes it is

:19:05.:19:08.

a game something unseemly. The president was making a very valid

:19:09.:19:13.

point that we have to jettison political correctness, we have to

:19:14.:19:20.

apply honesty to the threat, and saying it is just business as usual,

:19:21.:19:31.

don't worry about a thing, a Pollyanna-iah attitude to a thread

:19:32.:19:33.

that has killed hundreds of people in Europe and maimed over 700 has to

:19:34.:19:39.

be dealt with honestly. OK, I see that but then, is it not the right

:19:40.:19:45.

response for people to get together in a constructive mindset and say

:19:46.:19:47.

nice things and useful things, rather than just, you know,

:19:48.:19:55.

"Pathetic excuse by London Mayor Sadiq Khan". This is the bit I don't

:19:56.:20:05.

understand. In what way is the tweet, and I know it is just a

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tweet, in what way is it helpful to call it a pathetic excuse. I will

:20:10.:20:14.

talk about this tweet but it would be more helpful for British viewers

:20:15.:20:17.

and the alliance between the UK and the US to talk about policy issues

:20:18.:20:23.

and not tweets. The point is we will not come together adequately to the

:20:24.:20:27.

task in hand unless people talk honestly about the threat to London,

:20:28.:20:33.

the threat to Washington, the threat to DC, the threat to Paris, and that

:20:34.:20:37.

is what the president was writing about. And that is unimportant,

:20:38.:20:44.

substantive point, not just a tweet. But your point is that other people

:20:45.:20:49.

are talking dishonestly about it. The Mayor of London, or the

:20:50.:20:54.

authority. Cool in what way, other people that you are focused on,

:20:55.:20:59.

talking dishonestly about the threat --, in what way? Those people who

:21:00.:21:04.

spin fabulist fantasies and do not deal with the threat at hand. Is

:21:05.:21:11.

Sadiq Khan one of these people? If his statements are meant to deny the

:21:12.:21:15.

reality of the thread then he could be but I'm not going to talk to him,

:21:16.:21:20.

you should ask yourself. I know that his answer is that he is not. I

:21:21.:21:31.

sense your frustration that you were asked about your boss's tweet. I

:21:32.:21:34.

know that in other interviews, you have said, it is just a tweet, stop

:21:35.:21:37.

banging on about it. It is not policy. Is it useful to have him

:21:38.:21:41.

twitting random thoughts, getting into little arguments? If it is not

:21:42.:21:46.

policy, how is it getting in the way of clarity of message. Here I am,

:21:47.:21:50.

confused, I was thinking he was being critical of someone when he

:21:51.:21:56.

says something like "Pathetic excuse of London Mayor". When you put me

:21:57.:21:59.

right and explained that he was not being critical, he does not even

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know what the London Mayor's policies are. What is the meaning of

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this tweet of policy? I can't help you. That is how the businessman who

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has never held elected office won the election, he out trounced the

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mainstream liberal left-wing media. That is the value of Twitter. Not

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everything is about policy, some things about strategic

:22:26.:22:29.

communication. As is the Twitter account that the president has. Got

:22:30.:22:35.

it. For reasons that you will probably not understand or want to

:22:36.:22:39.

hear many people are being critical of President Trump for picking an

:22:40.:22:42.

argument with the Mayor of London at a time when the city is facing

:22:43.:22:48.

attack. And you are talking for them. I'm summarising that I have

:22:49.:22:59.

picked up that quite a few people are suggesting in political circles

:23:00.:23:01.

that it would be inappropriate for President Trump to have a state

:23:02.:23:04.

visit to the UK. Do you think he will be bothered of the state visit

:23:05.:23:07.

is cancelled or called of at least time being? If anybody thinks that a

:23:08.:23:13.

state visit is held hostage to Twitter then they have no

:23:14.:23:16.

understanding of the relationship between London and Washington. And

:23:17.:23:21.

that is a sad, sad day for anybody who thinks that. So you think that

:23:22.:23:26.

all this talk about, oh dear, we had better not have a state visit, we

:23:27.:23:30.

shouldn't have a state visit, is silly talk and the state visit will

:23:31.:23:36.

happen, in your field. I think, if you ask Theresa May, if you ask the

:23:37.:23:40.

people I work without your embassy, who come here regularly to talk to

:23:41.:23:45.

us, I think they will have a very different answer of the importance

:23:46.:23:49.

of a visit between two of the closest democracies in the world

:23:50.:23:54.

today. Sebastian Coe Walker, not his first outing this programme.

:23:55.:23:58.

We can continue the conversation with Chuka Umunna, who was a member

:23:59.:24:06.

of the Home Affairs Committee, and on the line from Wakefield,

:24:07.:24:09.

we're joined by Baroness Warsi, former Minister for Faith

:24:10.:24:11.

Her recent book, The Enemy Within; A Tale of Muslim Britain,

:24:12.:24:15.

looks into the flaws in government rhetoric on extremism.

:24:16.:24:17.

Perhaps I can start with you both on the state visit thing, I'm not going

:24:18.:24:23.

to get stuck on Trump, Baroness Warsi, do you think that the state

:24:24.:24:28.

visit should be off? My views on this visit are already on record. I

:24:29.:24:33.

feel that a state visit is an honour of the highest order where we lay

:24:34.:24:37.

out the red carpet, pomp and ceremony, Her Majesty hosts, and I

:24:38.:24:42.

think that for a man, who long before he started insulting London's

:24:43.:24:47.

mayor showed disdain for women and had little respect for minorities,

:24:48.:24:51.

black people, ex-guns, Latinos, little regard for the LGBT

:24:52.:24:55.

community. He mocked the disabled and when London Ken under attack he

:24:56.:24:59.

thought the best way to help us to attack the Maher of London. His

:25:00.:25:03.

record is before us and I think that what Nick said before about the

:25:04.:25:06.

visit being kicked into the long grass is best for now. I think we

:25:07.:25:11.

should keep kicking it into the long grass. Chuka Umunna, if Corbyn wins

:25:12.:25:16.

there will not be a Trump state visit, Willow, riding in the

:25:17.:25:22.

carriage together. There is not a state visit. I agree with every word

:25:23.:25:32.

that Saida just said and I think a period of silence from him would be

:25:33.:25:36.

welcome. And defeat cancer, given his unpopularity, just think about

:25:37.:25:41.

the huge police resource that will go into manning that state visit.

:25:42.:25:45.

With the threat level as it is at the moment I would much rather that

:25:46.:25:49.

our police and security services were focused on some of the

:25:50.:25:54.

challenges that we have here, giving our country safe than frankly being

:25:55.:25:59.

distracted by a president who as Saida has shown is perhaps one of

:26:00.:26:05.

the most divisive politicians in the Western world. And right now we need

:26:06.:26:09.

to be coming together. Lets go into enough is enough and what you

:26:10.:26:15.

understand by that. Saida Warsi, what do you understand by enough is

:26:16.:26:20.

enough and to support it because some interpreted as the extension of

:26:21.:26:24.

a kind of antipathy towards people with extreme views who are not

:26:25.:26:28.

violent. They are not killing people. Do you think it is right to

:26:29.:26:35.

start turning attention to them? I think that what Theresa said in her

:26:36.:26:39.

statement alongside enough is enough was that there was four specific

:26:40.:26:43.

areas she wanted to look at a game which included closing down a space

:26:44.:26:49.

online as well as off-line, revisiting policies on segregation,

:26:50.:26:53.

to tackle segregation and separation, but the strongest point

:26:54.:26:58.

she made is that, in a new age where we have a new emerging threat, we

:26:59.:27:03.

are going to reveal our counterterrorism strategy. And that

:27:04.:27:07.

includes how we prepare for an attack, how we pursue extremists,

:27:08.:27:11.

how we protect the United Kingdom and how we prevent people from

:27:12.:27:17.

becoming terrorists. You are happy with, if, and most would interpret

:27:18.:27:21.

it this way, if it became government policy that we need to close down

:27:22.:27:25.

some of the people who have been closer to the jihadists but not

:27:26.:27:29.

actually jihadists. Would you say that is a good thing, is that what

:27:30.:27:34.

we need to do or is that misguided? We have about 20-23,000 people of

:27:35.:27:41.

interest. And I have no concerns whatsoever if we look again as to

:27:42.:27:44.

how we make sure that we are watching these people, we look again

:27:45.:27:50.

at the regime that succeeded the control orders, to see if we can use

:27:51.:27:54.

them in a different way, whether we can change the conditions around

:27:55.:27:58.

them, so I have no issues with that. I think the concern I have this in

:27:59.:28:03.

relation to the Prevent strategy. Which up until now has had huge

:28:04.:28:10.

concerns around it. We've had people like the George Soros foundation,

:28:11.:28:14.

open society, writes what, led by Helena Kennedy QC, we had ex-police

:28:15.:28:19.

officers, intelligence services, even the government is an

:28:20.:28:23.

independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, David Anderson, say it

:28:24.:28:27.

is time for a review of Prevent. And I hope the government does generally

:28:28.:28:32.

review Prevent as part of its review of the strategy. Chuka Umunna, I

:28:33.:28:37.

want to get to the heart of the issue of how harsh we should be on

:28:38.:28:40.

people whose views are mainstream the two are not jihadists. Are they

:28:41.:28:45.

the gateway to jihadism? Does the gate needs to be shot or not? One of

:28:46.:28:52.

the challenges for police and security is that if they intervene

:28:53.:28:56.

too soon, they may not get the information as to what has been

:28:57.:29:01.

planned, which may come about but I have to say, in response to the

:29:02.:29:04.

Prime Minister 's speech she talks as if she has not been in charge of

:29:05.:29:08.

the Home Office for the past few years. I think there are a number of

:29:09.:29:12.

things. Police resourcing is definitely an issue. All the

:29:13.:29:16.

evidence we've taken on the home affairs select committee points to

:29:17.:29:18.

local neighbourhood policing being the most valuable source of

:29:19.:29:31.

intelligence in thwarting... Police jobs that have been cut, 20,000 down

:29:32.:29:34.

and you're putting 10,000 back, that points to your agreeing with half

:29:35.:29:36.

the cuts made. In an ideal world you'd have to get them up higher but

:29:37.:29:39.

you'd have to talk to the Home Office. That's definitely an issue.

:29:40.:29:45.

I agree with Saida on Prevent. That's a real problem. I remember

:29:46.:29:50.

taking evidence from some young people in Bradford. There is a real

:29:51.:29:53.

problem in the way it operates. You have a large group of young Muslim

:29:54.:29:58.

people who feel this has turned them into a suspect community and they

:29:59.:30:04.

are being asked to explain and apologise for having nothing to do

:30:05.:30:07.

frankly with Islamic teaching whatsoever. And on the cyber side of

:30:08.:30:12.

things, there were much tighter controls as to what people subject

:30:13.:30:18.

to control orders could do as opposed to the successive roles. And

:30:19.:30:23.

I disagreed with control orders being done away with that's

:30:24.:30:28.

definitely the social media companies, there seems to be so much

:30:29.:30:33.

modern in respect to them and in the end, if they are not prepared to

:30:34.:30:40.

spend the money is then frankly government and force them to pay for

:30:41.:30:43.

that much in the way that football clubs are forced to contribute to

:30:44.:30:46.

policing, because we cannot just leave them to police themselves if

:30:47.:30:51.

it is not working. We need to stop but you have both raised so many

:30:52.:30:54.

issues, thank you both very much indeed.

:30:55.:30:57.

We've become depressingly familiar with the rituals of terror:

:30:58.:30:59.

after the condemnations and messages of sympathy, the determined

:31:00.:31:01.

insistence that we will not let such attacks change the way we live.

:31:02.:31:04.

And by yesterday morning, barely 36 hours after Saturday's carnage,

:31:05.:31:07.

a semblance of normality had returned to London Bridge,

:31:08.:31:09.

with thousands of commuters streaming across the river

:31:10.:31:11.

But is the reassuring picture of a city keeping calm

:31:12.:31:17.

Bridges, the arteries of a city, the things that functioning societies

:31:18.:31:30.

build between communities. They're vital and they're vulnerable. The

:31:31.:31:34.

van was zig zagging along the pavement. It looked like he was

:31:35.:31:38.

aiming, from my opinion, aiming for groups of people. Keep moving guys.

:31:39.:31:45.

We saw an injured person on the pavement on the left-hand side and a

:31:46.:31:49.

little bit further, an injured person on the road. We had arrived

:31:50.:31:52.

in the aftermath of a terrorist attack. This taxi driver pulled up,

:31:53.:31:57.

swerved towards me and screamed, "Please, run, you've got to run,

:31:58.:32:02.

now, get back, get back. " I turned around and saw a man with a huge

:32:03.:32:07.

blade. I ran as fast as I comfort -- as I could. I looked up to see a guy

:32:08.:32:12.

leaving the restaurant next to where we were. He was holding his chest or

:32:13.:32:16.

neck. He was covered in blood. He was staggering through the market.

:32:17.:32:22.

This morning, less than 36 hours later, London Bridge was back open,

:32:23.:32:28.

the city back at work. There's something so reassuring about this.

:32:29.:32:33.

We feel comforted by what looks like an almost immediate return to

:32:34.:32:38.

normality, even if it is the Monday morning commute. It gives us a

:32:39.:32:44.

feeling that no matter how horrific, terror cannot fundamentally change

:32:45.:32:55.

our society. But in the shadow of you area market -- borough market,

:32:56.:33:00.

nothing feels norm. It's tough with children, when you're dropping them

:33:01.:33:05.

at school, a road away, you don't feel necessarily safe doing, that

:33:06.:33:08.

but life has to go on. It makes me angry. At the moment I feel quite

:33:09.:33:12.

numb. Obviously having children, who we have to discuss these things

:33:13.:33:17.

with, who have no understanding of what's happening. They are just

:33:18.:33:21.

like, why would people do that mummy? How do you explain that to

:33:22.:33:25.

your kids? You just have to state facts. Richard Angel, who runs a

:33:26.:33:32.

centre left think-tank, was in a restaurant nearby when one of the

:33:33.:33:40.

attackers burst in. It wasn't until we were evacuated, avoiding the

:33:41.:33:44.

shoes, dropped wallets, blood, victims, paramedics, police

:33:45.:33:48.

officers, and we got outside the cordoned off area and that sense of

:33:49.:33:51.

relief, going round counting all your friends were there. I made eye

:33:52.:33:55.

contact with a woman on the next table who we had a silent but strong

:33:56.:33:58.

bond with throughout the whole thing. Make sure the pregnant lady

:33:59.:34:03.

was in a safe place. Then we were told we weren't safe and we had to

:34:04.:34:07.

move again. For those caught up in the attacks especially there is a

:34:08.:34:10.

tension between the question of what is to be done and the urge to carry

:34:11.:34:16.

on as usual. Of course, we should fund our Secret Services and the

:34:17.:34:20.

defence and the police and others who deal with this stuff and there's

:34:21.:34:23.

very many problems out there that can be dealt with. Of course,

:34:24.:34:28.

there's things we should do about international funding of mosques and

:34:29.:34:34.

sending text books that are inappropriate to madrassas and

:34:35.:34:37.

schools and various other things. But I refuse to give these people a

:34:38.:34:42.

victory. I think most British people, the Londoners and the

:34:43.:34:45.

Mancunians who have led a beautiful response to such hate want to do the

:34:46.:34:52.

same. The morning after, the Sunday, community leaders gathered to do

:34:53.:34:56.

what community leaders do, try to rebuild bridges. Leaders of the

:34:57.:35:00.

local mosque found themselves in the familiar position of having to

:35:01.:35:03.

distance themselves from an atrocity they had nothing to do with, of

:35:04.:35:09.

having to explain what Islam is not. Islam means peace. It's got nothing

:35:10.:35:15.

to do with these kind of heinous, barbaric actions. It's got nothing

:35:16.:35:20.

to do with Islam. I think everyone would agree that's the kind of thing

:35:21.:35:24.

people ought to be saying in the aftermath of what's just happened.

:35:25.:35:27.

There's the fact that constantly these attacks are done in the name

:35:28.:35:31.

of Islam. How do you prevent that view from taking hold? Your

:35:32.:35:38.

question, in the name of Islam, I can't see or recognise how that is

:35:39.:35:45.

the case. This is a mixed neighbourhood, tourists and City

:35:46.:35:48.

workers rub shoulders with working-class communities from

:35:49.:35:51.

different backgrounds. In private, not everyone has responded to the

:35:52.:35:56.

attacks with a message of unity. I just spoke to one lady who said,

:35:57.:36:03.

"I'd do a Trump, kick them all out." Another gentleman said to me, we're

:36:04.:36:07.

at breaking point. We need to look after our own. These may not be the

:36:08.:36:11.

majority opinions, they are not the kind of opinions people want to

:36:12.:36:14.

express in front of the television cameras but they are out there. Long

:36:15.:36:18.

before the perpetrators were identified this evening, assumptions

:36:19.:36:23.

were made. Will arrived on London Bridge moments after the attackers

:36:24.:36:28.

struck. Really quickly everyone just, everyone seemed to know what

:36:29.:36:34.

it was. And knew what sort of a situation they were in. Each attack

:36:35.:36:39.

carried out in the name of Islam, however perverted a version,

:36:40.:36:42.

contributes to a corrosive picture. I don't think anyone that was there

:36:43.:36:47.

on Saturday night caught up in it, the victims, the victims' families,

:36:48.:36:53.

the emergency services, I don't think anyone will be in any doubt as

:36:54.:37:00.

to why these people carried out the attack and what ideology would have

:37:01.:37:03.

inspired them to do it. I don't really think we're having an honest

:37:04.:37:07.

debate when the focus is on whether there have been too many cuts to the

:37:08.:37:11.

emergency services and that kind of thing. As far as I could see, that

:37:12.:37:14.

response was flawless on Saturday night. On London's other bridges,

:37:15.:37:20.

protective barriers went up overnight, at Westminster, they know

:37:21.:37:23.

what damage can be done with just a vehicle and a knife. They know too

:37:24.:37:28.

that security measures alone are not enough to keep the country safe or

:37:29.:37:30.

united. As we heard earlier,

:37:31.:37:34.

the Prime Minister has been talking tough about the need

:37:35.:37:36.

for a new response to terror. But how does society balance

:37:37.:37:39.

the need for security Henna Rai founded the Women

:37:40.:37:41.

Against Radicalisation Network and Anas Altikriti is CEO of

:37:42.:37:48.

think-tank the Cordoba Foundation. Good evening to you both. I really

:37:49.:37:59.

want to focus on these people who are not violent, but who were the

:38:00.:38:06.

kind of people that were hanging around in the ambience of one of the

:38:07.:38:10.

killers we know, what do you think our attitude should be to that,

:38:11.:38:14.

extreme positions non-violent? It's a difficult question. We need to

:38:15.:38:21.

address the issues that are contributing towards these people

:38:22.:38:26.

who are essentially non-violent to begin with, but then move on to do

:38:27.:38:30.

violent acts later on. What is the actual cause behind it? And what

:38:31.:38:33.

that root cause it, how we can tackle that. What's your gut

:38:34.:38:38.

instinct? Do you think we just stand by while people express views that

:38:39.:38:45.

are very anti-Western, very extreme, maybe even flirting with Isis, but

:38:46.:38:50.

who seem to show no sign of actually wanting to attack us or kill us? If

:38:51.:38:55.

that was the solution to it, I would never have founded my organisation,

:38:56.:39:00.

which was in response to such views. The other issue is we don't address

:39:01.:39:05.

the fact that there is an ideology that people do buy into here. There

:39:06.:39:10.

is an ideology. Absolutely. Sorry, you think the ideology does relate

:39:11.:39:13.

to what the killers bind to? Of course. Because whatever the

:39:14.:39:18.

grievances or the issues initially are, there is an ultimate ideology

:39:19.:39:22.

that they do buy into. We need to address this and talk about the

:39:23.:39:25.

elephant in the room. Is that correct, do you think? I always have

:39:26.:39:30.

a problem when politicians start talking about ideology. I don't

:39:31.:39:35.

think its their remit. I don't think they're good at it. If anything, I

:39:36.:39:39.

think they make things worse. They don't understand it. The nature of

:39:40.:39:45.

politics is about short-termism. You can't deal with understanding,

:39:46.:39:49.

grapple with and try to counter or reform ideology within the term of

:39:50.:39:53.

any particular Government. I would, the first thing I think the

:39:54.:39:56.

Government needs to do is stay away from ideology. The other thing - I'm

:39:57.:40:00.

sorry, that's a very big thing to say. It is. There are people who are

:40:01.:40:07.

promoting hate. Out of those groups come people who kill lots of people.

:40:08.:40:11.

I would argue that ideas are best fought with ideas. They're not

:40:12.:40:15.

fought with either bullets or security or ratting on. Simply

:40:16.:40:22.

you're giving credence, longevity, credibility to those who have what

:40:23.:40:26.

is essentially very minor ideas outside the mainstream community. It

:40:27.:40:32.

is these ideas that are causing them to actually turn around and

:40:33.:40:35.

perpetrate - What are you talking about, so we're specific. We're

:40:36.:40:42.

talking about the Islamist ideology that they subscribe to, anti-Western

:40:43.:40:47.

sentiment. 99. 9% of Muslims don't subscribe to that. However the

:40:48.:40:52.

loudest voices at this moment in time are of those extremists.

:40:53.:40:59.

They're sympathisers who have a legitimate platform in the UK - Go

:41:00.:41:04.

around the mosques up and down the country and point it a particular

:41:05.:41:08.

mosque. There are many organisations who call themselves representatives

:41:09.:41:14.

of Muslims in the UK. They will subscribe to sectarianism, sympathy

:41:15.:41:18.

to extremist ideology. I would suggest that those are rejected by

:41:19.:41:22.

the mainstream. The issue is how do you deal with the small number who

:41:23.:41:29.

are not. Would your beliefs, do you fear being classed as extreme if we

:41:30.:41:33.

went down this route of saying this, would you be one of them? We have a

:41:34.:41:37.

serious problem in society today. We never thought - I mean, I'm almost

:41:38.:41:41.

50 and I've spent all my life here in Britain. We never feared ideas.

:41:42.:41:46.

We never feared people who had strange - No, but we didn't have

:41:47.:41:51.

pockets of these things that was leading to this particular problem.

:41:52.:41:54.

Of course we did. We always - no, no, we're in a particular position

:41:55.:41:58.

whereby we have what I would call almost an industry that thrives on

:41:59.:42:01.

the fact that we have these challenges. I would suggest this:

:42:02.:42:07.

Why is it that we fear those with what we call controversial ideas so

:42:08.:42:11.

much? The answer is so obvious. We are shutting down political debate.

:42:12.:42:16.

We are shutting down people expressing their views, expressing

:42:17.:42:20.

their sentiments and what is happening we are driving people, who

:42:21.:42:23.

are part of society, who want the best for their country, the best for

:42:24.:42:26.

their people, we're driving them more and more towards the extremes.

:42:27.:42:30.

That is the point. If you go after those people, and that might include

:42:31.:42:40.

him here, you may alienate another group of people and push them to the

:42:41.:42:45.

extremes. The issue that we have here is the fact that many people

:42:46.:42:52.

are now pandering to a victimhood ideology as Muslims, as part of the

:42:53.:42:55.

community, that we are being alienated. If you raise the issues

:42:56.:43:02.

of extremism and Islamism within the community, you are demonising an

:43:03.:43:05.

entire Muslim community. Whereas that is not what we're here to do.

:43:06.:43:10.

If there wasn't a problem, organisations like mine would not

:43:11.:43:14.

exist. There is a clear problem. We need to address that problem. I fear

:43:15.:43:18.

where we are at today is that anyone who speaks outside a particular

:43:19.:43:21.

boundary, which is narrowing more and more and more unfortunately, due

:43:22.:43:25.

to the politicians getting involved with trying to reform ideology,

:43:26.:43:28.

what's happening is we are classifying more and more people,

:43:29.:43:33.

who could do good, how many people amongst the people that you are

:43:34.:43:37.

working against, how many of those could have had a conversation and

:43:38.:43:42.

stopped Salman Abedi doing what he did? How many could have stopped the

:43:43.:43:46.

killers on Saturday. I don't think any of those organisations would

:43:47.:43:52.

have. Believe you me - These organisations have previously - I'm

:43:53.:43:55.

not talking about solely about organisations. Why are you hung up

:43:56.:44:00.

on individuals. Individuals are part of these organisations. Three

:44:01.:44:02.

million British Muslims care about their country and their people.

:44:03.:44:08.

Everybody knows that. They're horrified about the attacks.

:44:09.:44:12.

Unfortunately you are excludeing a big chunk of that group because they

:44:13.:44:15.

express views you don't like. We need to leave it there, I'm sorry.

:44:16.:44:17.

Points taken. Thank you very much. Tributes were being paid

:44:18.:44:21.

today to those caught up Seven people died,

:44:22.:44:23.

killed either by the van on the bridge or in the frenzied

:44:24.:44:26.

knife attacks which followed. Tonight, just one has

:44:27.:44:29.

been officially named. 30-year-old Christine Archibald,

:44:30.:44:32.

from Canada, died in the arms of her fiance, after being struck

:44:33.:44:35.

by the van. Her family paid tribute

:44:36.:44:38.

to their "beautiful loving Later, relatives of a missing London

:44:39.:44:41.

man James McMullan said they believed he was among the dead,

:44:42.:44:45.

although his body has not yet been His sister Melissa

:44:46.:44:49.

spoke at the bridge. This morning we received news

:44:50.:44:56.

from the police that my brother's bank card was found on one

:44:57.:44:59.

of the bodies from Saturday But they are unable to formally

:45:00.:45:02.

identify him until the coroner's We would like to send our

:45:03.:45:08.

condolences to the relatives and loved ones of all the people

:45:09.:45:14.

who lost their lives. Our thoughts are with

:45:15.:45:18.

them also at this time. We would like to thank

:45:19.:45:23.

all the members of the services who did their utmost to serve

:45:24.:45:28.

and protect the population of London from these deranged

:45:29.:45:31.

and deluded individuals. 36 people were still being treated

:45:32.:45:36.

in five London hospitals today. Our special correspondent

:45:37.:45:39.

Katie Razzall talked to Dr Malcolm Tunnicliff,

:45:40.:45:42.

the clinical director of emergency He raced to work as soon as he heard

:45:43.:45:45.

the attack had happened. Whilst I was driving, the major

:45:46.:46:02.

incident plan was obviously enacted and staff came from a variety of

:46:03.:46:05.

places, some were at home, somewhere out in London and I believe a number

:46:06.:46:09.

of our stuff were near the events that happened and I came straight to

:46:10.:46:15.

Kings. The first thing you say to the patients if they are conscience

:46:16.:46:19.

is, who saved, we are going to look after you, you will be fine. In the

:46:20.:46:24.

emergency department there were large numbers of patients being

:46:25.:46:27.

treated simultaneously but what struck me was the calm way in which

:46:28.:46:30.

it was done, I think people expect there to be lots of shouting and

:46:31.:46:34.

carrying on but teams are calm and focused on their patients and the

:46:35.:46:36.

care they needed to give. What kinds of injuries were stab wounds

:46:37.:47:06.

to the head, neck, chest and abdomen, a number of patients had

:47:07.:47:08.

defensive wounds as well where they had to try to protect themselves

:47:09.:47:11.

from being stabbed. Whistle a large number of stab wounds from patient

:47:12.:47:13.

Dexter who have been stabbed at the hospital but nothing on this scale

:47:14.:47:16.

has ever happened before. We saw patients who came in with blunt

:47:17.:47:18.

force trauma, being hit by a vehicle you can lose a lot of blood through

:47:19.:47:21.

multiple fractures so splinting bones first and then doing repair

:47:22.:47:23.

later on is very important. I think everyone deals with incidents like

:47:24.:47:26.

this in a different way. I talk to my family, friends, my colleagues,

:47:27.:47:30.

but perhaps most importantly is not to bottle this in. We are trained,

:47:31.:47:39.

and practice for events like this, we can manage events like this. We

:47:40.:47:44.

don't want to do it but we accept that something like this is likely

:47:45.:47:47.

to happen again. We should be rightly proud of all the stuff of

:47:48.:47:54.

the NHS, not just here at Kings but the Ambulance Services and hospitals

:47:55.:47:57.

in London and of course the police for their response to the attack.

:47:58.:48:02.

.Doc Malcolm Tunnicliffe from Kings Hospital talking to Katie Razzall.

:48:03.:48:08.

It sometimes seems as if the debate about what to do in terror attacks

:48:09.:48:12.

can go around in circles and perhaps no more than in relation to the

:48:13.:48:18.

arguments about the Internet, there are questions about whether the

:48:19.:48:22.

authorities should be given key to all encrypted material which is

:48:23.:48:25.

tricky and also issues about the alleged ability of the evil to strut

:48:26.:48:30.

around the Internet with too little inhibition. Theresa May yesterday

:48:31.:48:32.

suggested more should be done to stop it so how easy is it to access

:48:33.:48:38.

extremist material online, our policy editor Chris Cook spoke to

:48:39.:48:41.

Elizabeth Cann double monitors jihadists material on the web. This

:48:42.:48:45.

week there has been a lot of focus on the web giants. Has social media

:48:46.:48:51.

in particular allowed violent hate to cover the globe? We asked an

:48:52.:48:56.

academic who follows online Islamic radicalism about whether that

:48:57.:49:00.

problem has been getting worse. You can certainly still find extremist

:49:01.:49:04.

material online but it is not as easy as it used to be. Let me give

:49:05.:49:09.

you an example. There is a video which I will not name, by a

:49:10.:49:16.

prominent militant extremist preacher, which came out recently,

:49:17.:49:21.

and just before coming here I tried to Google it, find it, watch it

:49:22.:49:25.

again on YouTube and it was not there. It had been taken down. A

:49:26.:49:30.

year or so ago, there was no way that would have been taken down, but

:49:31.:49:37.

would have been much easier to find. Accounts promoting violent extremist

:49:38.:49:40.

material using simple search terms tend to get taken down very rapidly.

:49:41.:49:45.

In the old days it used to be a badge of honour when you got your

:49:46.:49:50.

account erased or suspended. I think once that has happened maybe nine or

:49:51.:49:54.

ten times it starts to become a pain, you have to start from zero

:49:55.:49:59.

again each time, and therefore we find that militant extremists are

:50:00.:50:03.

now using other platforms. We were able to find that video on a service

:50:04.:50:10.

called Telegram. Tell me what makes Telegram useful for jihadists. The

:50:11.:50:14.

most useful thing about it is that as the name suggests, you are

:50:15.:50:17.

sending messages. Normally that works via groups in the militant

:50:18.:50:24.

jihad context so you can sign up to a group, you can join at but you

:50:25.:50:29.

cannot find that group very easily because you can't just type in and

:50:30.:50:36.

the name of group like the Islamic State or jihad. You have to know

:50:37.:50:41.

what their username is, they use address is before you can join the

:50:42.:50:45.

group. That is normally quite a complicated collection of letters

:50:46.:50:50.

and numbers that you wouldn't be able to guess. And why don't the

:50:51.:50:54.

authorities just shut down these groups in the way they have been

:50:55.:50:59.

going after these? I think it is much more difficult to shut down

:51:00.:51:04.

Telegram. Partly because it is encrypted so it is secret. So it

:51:05.:51:08.

means that we cannot see what is being sent nor can we see which

:51:09.:51:12.

individuals are downloading, say, these videos. That an important

:51:13.:51:18.

point you make because they are downloading videos. Directly from

:51:19.:51:23.

Telegram. You no longer need to use next to external sites as you would

:51:24.:51:28.

normally for longer videos and other applications like Twitter. You can

:51:29.:51:33.

do everything on Telegram. If I were a curiouser wannabe militant jihadi,

:51:34.:51:40.

I would probably find a way of getting hold of this material

:51:41.:51:45.

online. It is not as easy but with a will there is still away. It needs

:51:46.:51:51.

much greater policing. So it's not easy to stumble into violent

:51:52.:51:55.

extremist material but encrypted applications provided for those who

:51:56.:51:56.

wanted. Chris Cook. And we did ask the big technology

:51:57.:51:59.

firms to join us on the programme We have an election on Thursday, the

:52:00.:52:10.

programme will come to you from Walsall tomorrow night as polling

:52:11.:52:15.

day approaches. But from all of us forceps and out, Dutch for now, good

:52:16.:52:18.

night.

:52:19.:52:29.

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