06/06/2017 Newsnight


06/06/2017

Mark Urban has the latest on the investigation into the London Bridge attackers, and Evan Davis is in Walsall for the last days of election campaigning.


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Transcript


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There's one day of campaigning left in an election dominated by two

:00:08.:00:09.

terrorist attacks in the space of two weeks.

:00:10.:00:13.

We now know the identity of all three London Bridge killers.

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What does who they were tell us about how well protected we are?

:00:18.:00:28.

In the case of Youssef Zaghba there are questions about why if the

:00:29.:00:33.

Italian authorities were worried about him going to Syria to fight

:00:34.:00:38.

that the information was not passed on and if it was, it was not dealt

:00:39.:00:40.

with more efficiently. We hear from a former head

:00:41.:00:42.

of Prevent at the Foreign office about the Government's

:00:43.:00:45.

anti-radicalisation strategy. Undoubtedly there is a branding

:00:46.:00:56.

problem, the brand of the Prevent strategy has become tarnished. We've

:00:57.:01:00.

had cases where teachers or those working in the NHS are not willing

:01:01.:01:02.

to be involved. Tonight, Theresa May says

:01:03.:01:04.

she will consider changing human rights law to restrict the freedom

:01:05.:01:05.

of movement of suspected militants. If our human rights laws stop us

:01:06.:01:15.

doing it we will change them so we can do it.

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We put that to the Shadow Attorney General and a former

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The polls have shown a race that's been tightening.

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The seat in the north of this town is one that the Labour

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and Conservative parties both really want to win.

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I think it's a definite choice for people to choose either

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I mean, the old way has not been doing too well.

:01:38.:01:42.

Stephen Bush looks at who and what shaped his politics as a young man.

:01:43.:01:52.

And the Home Secretary had to reply to attacks on the police, like this

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If this Government can find time and money, apparently,

:01:56.:02:00.

to appease the police, how is it they have not found

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the time to do anything to bring about democratic control

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We begin tonight's extended programme here in London on the day

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we learned the name of the third London Bridge attacker.

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He was Youssef Zaghba, an Italian national of Moroccan

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His background is different again to the two killers we already know.

:02:30.:02:38.

As the Prime Minister announces tonight that a Tory government

:02:39.:02:40.

would consider amending human rights law to restrict the freedom

:02:41.:02:43.

and movement of terrorist suspects, we examine the depth and breadth

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of the terror threat and how to counter it.

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First, with what we know so far about the attackers,

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here's our Diplomatic Editor, Mark Urban.

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For the police and MI5, the three perpetrators

:03:00.:03:01.

are worthy of study, not least in understanding how

:03:02.:03:04.

Today the authorities confirmed the identity of Youssef Zaghba.

:03:05.:03:11.

Of Moroccan and Italian parentage, he lived in Bologna before

:03:12.:03:13.

TRANSLATION: He went to London to go back. Here there is not anything, he

:03:14.:03:32.

went to work. At least that is what he said. In March of last year the

:03:33.:03:36.

Italian authorities had stopped Youssef Zaghba using a one-way air

:03:37.:03:40.

to Turkey and they believed he was about to join the jihad in Syria.

:03:41.:03:45.

The Italian said that they told Britain. The UK authorities say that

:03:46.:03:51.

he was not a subject of interest. We see this a lot where one agency has

:03:52.:03:57.

the intelligence and it says we passed it to our partner agency but

:03:58.:04:02.

obviously a lot of these organisations rely on liaison

:04:03.:04:06.

officers to do this. And quite often sometimes the liaison officer will

:04:07.:04:12.

not have done it all it has not been put on the right system. And

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troubling new facts have emerged about Khuram Butt also. Pakistani

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born but raised in this country, he had long associated with the

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Al-Muhajiroun militant group featuring in a documentary on them.

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But it also became clear today that he had threatened summer Hassan last

:04:30.:04:44.

July in a park. He you work for Quilliam, used by Muslims and

:04:45.:04:47.

government money to work against Muslims. How dare you come to a

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Muslim event, you are an apostate. All very aggressive. And very

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threatening. Because in the mind of extremists, if you declare a Muslim

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and nonbeliever then there is an automatic death penalty in their

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mind. It is a well-known technique of intimidation. A scuffle resulted

:05:09.:05:15.

and Khuram Butt received a police caution after Doctor Hassan reported

:05:16.:05:19.

him. I said in my professional judgment he is part of the network

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which is openly pro-Islamic state in the UK. And the threat to national

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security. But -- Khuram Butt had been the subject of interest but his

:05:33.:05:35.

status had been downgraded because it was not thought to be involved in

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any active plots. The type of judgment that MI5 guy monitoring

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3000 suspects, must constantly make. Some of these people come from

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backgrounds where they had long-standing patterns of

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Association with radical networks, a history of radical activism. One of

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the individuals in this plot, Khuram Butt for example, fits into bad

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character and personality type. But in other cases people come from a

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completely fresh background without ever having been known to the

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authorities. The third London Bridge killer, Rachid Redouane, fits into

:06:11.:06:14.

that last category. He was not on the radar. Libyan and Moroccan, 30

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he was the oldest of group. This afternoon police raided this address

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in Ilford in east London. They remove some items, part of the

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search to map the relationship of the suspects with one another and

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the wider militant network in the capital. Three men with quite

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different backgrounds. Inevitably some of the questions in this

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investigation will become central to planning how to prevent similar

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actions in the future. How did they meet if it was not online or at a

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mosque. What was the basis of the relationship between the men. And

:06:52.:06:55.

when exactly did they form the intention for this joint enterprise

:06:56.:07:01.

of murder on London Bridge. Certainly it is plausible and likely

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that an attack of this kind could be put together in a matter of hours

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because it uses everyday items, a rented van, knives are no sense of

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building an explosive device or doing something that would require a

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lot of planning and reconnaissance. This is very instantaneous and easy,

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a dumbed down form of terrorism. Those are now investigate and would

:07:26.:07:28.

try to stop another attack has found a disparate group of fanatics armed

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with everyday objects. It is a fearsome challenge for anyone to

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stop. Over the past few weeks,

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there have been repeated questions around the Government's Prevent

:07:37.:07:39.

strategy - designed to stop Our reporter Richard Watson has been

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speaking to a former head This is a time of difficult

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questions for the police and MI5. Absolutely. The Italian attacker was

:07:55.:08:02.

on the radar in Italy and so the focus will be what specific

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information was given to British authorities. We know from yesterday

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that the first attacker to be identified, Khuram Butt, was on the

:08:12.:08:15.

radar as well. He was investigated themes and even featured in a

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Channel 4 documentary. So he had strong links with Al-Muhajiroun. In

:08:21.:08:23.

a rare interview I spoke to the former head of the Prevent strategy,

:08:24.:08:30.

a man called Arthur Snell and he spent his career in government

:08:31.:08:33.

counter terrorism circles. This is what he said.

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I think, you know, that situation, somebody who has, as you say,

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has appeared in a TV documentary almost sort of celebrating his own

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kind of hardline views and hardline status.

:08:42.:08:44.

But I would go back to the point that you've got 500 active

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investigations, 3000 people being looked at.

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Now, in the case of Khuram Butt, what we must assume is the police

:08:53.:08:57.

took a look at him, and the police and other authorities drew

:08:58.:09:00.

a conclusion at that time that he wasn't planning

:09:01.:09:02.

What does this say about prevent? Most people accept there was some

:09:03.:09:18.

serious problems in the early days of the Prevent strategy. There was a

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lot of money around, and in some cases money was given to people with

:09:24.:09:28.

ultraconservative views quite inappropriately. I spoke to Arthur

:09:29.:09:32.

Snell and he accepts the argument but says beyond that the core

:09:33.:09:35.

activity of the Prevent strategy needs to continue.

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Undoubtedly a branding problem, you know.

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The brand of Prevent has become tarnished for various reasons.

:09:40.:09:42.

We've seen cases where, for example, teachers or people working

:09:43.:09:44.

in the NHS are very unwilling to be involved.

:09:45.:09:47.

But if we ask, what is the point of Prevent?

:09:48.:09:50.

The point of Prevent is to stop people from becoming

:09:51.:09:53.

terrorists in the first place, to address the underlying

:09:54.:09:55.

causes that drag people into terrorist activity.

:09:56.:09:57.

That is an important activity for the Government,

:09:58.:09:59.

and it has never been more important than the time we are in now.

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If Prevent needs to be rebranded, I don't have any problem with that.

:10:03.:10:17.

Is there an issue now of the direction of travel of the

:10:18.:10:24.

government anti-terrorism strategy? Get them early on ordeal -- ordeal

:10:25.:10:30.

with extremists? This has been under debate for more than a decade, do

:10:31.:10:34.

you focus just on violent extremists or do bogus as well on the so-called

:10:35.:10:41.

non-violent extremists, people with ultraconservative views which may be

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unpalatable but do not breach the law. That question is very tricky.

:10:44.:10:49.

The live music seems to be moving towards tackling extremism now,

:10:50.:10:53.

non-violent extremism but there are risks to that. If you effectively

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alienate a large section of your Muslim population then the damage

:10:59.:11:02.

the flow of community intelligence and so some people think you need to

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look more structured questions such as how to give these young people

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avenues to success so that they do not otherwise have those. But

:11:13.:11:16.

critics could say that could be a 20 year plan.

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Let's drill down now into one question -

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how should terrorists who fit the profile of Kaurem Butt,

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a man known to the authorities, who could be said to be hiding

:11:23.:11:25.

As we now know, Khuram Butt was on the radar of the security

:11:26.:11:37.

services well in advance of the London Bridge attack,

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As we now know, Khuram Butt was on the radar of the security

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but was still able to carry out his murderous rampage.

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So, what type of reform should we be looking

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at across a range of areas to prevent known troublemakers

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from planning and executing further deadly attacks?

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We asked four experts for their thoughts.

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As Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation throughout

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the period of control orders, I saw how effective they were.

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They relocated people from the people with

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They put controls on their use of computers and mobile telephony,

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they enabled the authorities to know exactly what they were doing.

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They worked, and I believe they saved many lives.

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Khuram Butt should have been subject to something like a control order.

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If he'd been under a control order, he would not have done

:12:27.:12:29.

what he did, and probably the others wouldn't, either.

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We know that at least one of the London Bridge attackers had

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been watching extremist videos on YouTube, and, you know,

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this follows so many concerns about the way in which it's

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incredibly easy to access content about how to make a nail bomb,

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how to commit an attack, it's so easy to access that content

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The US tech companies have got to start taking action.

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That means aggressively and proactively taking down content,

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and it means hiring enough people that they can respond to complaints

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The threat that we are facing here is low-tech terrorism.

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It's a bunch of guys in someone's front room making a plot,

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arming themselves with kitchen knives and then going on the street

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We mustn't forget that the 20/7 attackers were identified

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by a community officer who dealt with a simple dispute

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on Oxford Street that led to their identification

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And that is the value of community police officers.

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And they're the ones suffering from these cuts.

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As a community organiser, I feel that we need a third option.

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One that can be used by families and communities to engage

:13:50.:13:52.

with people who are vulnerable to radicalisation, before a formal

:13:53.:13:54.

However, the current political climate doesn't allow for that

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Also, we need the reassurance that information and intelligence

:13:59.:14:01.

provided by communities will be taken seriously and be acted upon.

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Let's pick up on one of those points there -

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do the authorities have the powers they need to tackle extremism?

:14:19.:14:21.

It would appear that Theresa May, a former Home Secretary,

:14:22.:14:24.

At a rally tonight, she indicated she would be prepared to change some

:14:25.:14:30.

human rights laws to bear down harder on the terror threat.

:14:31.:14:40.

I mean making it easier for the authorities to deport

:14:41.:14:42.

foreign terrorist suspects back to their own country.

:14:43.:14:45.

And I mean doing more to restrict the freedom of movement of terrorist

:14:46.:14:48.

suspects when we have enough evidence to know they are a threat,

:14:49.:14:51.

but not enough evidence to prosecute them in full import.

:14:52.:15:03.

And if our human rights laws stop us from doing it,

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we'll change the laws so we can do it.

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We did ask to speak to the Government tonight,

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Joining me now - for Labour, Shami Chakrabarti,

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the Shadow Attorney General, and Dominic Grieve, the former

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Conservative Attorney General and Chair of the Intelligence

:15:20.:15:21.

Good evening to both of you. Shami Chakrabarti, you could be Attorney

:15:22.:15:31.

General in two days' time if the authorities came to you and said, we

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need to make an alteration to the human rights law so that we can

:15:37.:15:40.

exclude more easily or crack down on them, would you deny it? Our

:15:41.:15:45.

commitment is to deal with terror suspects within the rule of law,

:15:46.:15:52.

including the human rights. It is interesting, this is a familiar knee

:15:53.:15:56.

jerk of Theresa May that we have heard before. A few years ago she

:15:57.:16:01.

was talking about caps. Now she has gone for an anti-human rights dog

:16:02.:16:06.

whistle. A few days earlier when she was standing in Downing Street, she

:16:07.:16:10.

said that terrorists are against human rights and we are going to

:16:11.:16:15.

protect our liberal society. There is no detail from Theresa May this

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evening. You are confident that the Human Rights Act is sufficient to

:16:20.:16:26.

the task? We will always listen to whatever the security agencies say

:16:27.:16:30.

that they need. But we are confident that we can provide any new powers

:16:31.:16:35.

that are truly necessary and proportionate within the human

:16:36.:16:38.

rights framework and within the rule of law. Clearly something is not

:16:39.:16:42.

working. You agree that the atmosphere has changed, two terror

:16:43.:16:48.

attacks in two weeks proceeded by Westminster, it is a different

:16:49.:16:51.

atmosphere and different climate. People want to know that everything

:16:52.:16:55.

in the Government's armoury is being used. Perhaps that armoury isn't

:16:56.:16:59.

right? We are concerned about the armoury, our biggest concern is

:17:00.:17:03.

about resources. Everything I've heard from your clips this evening

:17:04.:17:06.

and everything that I've heard from the agencies themselves in recent

:17:07.:17:10.

weeks suggests that cuts for example in the number of police officers,

:17:11.:17:15.

cuts to the Borders agency, austerity, it is a potential problem

:17:16.:17:24.

and we are committed to making that the priority. You have a situation

:17:25.:17:26.

where you have heard Lord Carlile say tonight that actually control

:17:27.:17:30.

orders are what we need back. Lord Carlile and I have debated control

:17:31.:17:33.

orders on your programme over the years and we have disagreed. If

:17:34.:17:39.

there is a need for any new powers to monitor suspects who are not yet

:17:40.:17:43.

able to be charged, we are convinced that could be dealt with within the

:17:44.:17:50.

criminal justice system and not as an extra justice system measure like

:17:51.:17:54.

control orders. We have said, Jeremy Corbyn has said even this evening

:17:55.:17:58.

that he will look at the law. But the primary focus that we are making

:17:59.:18:05.

is resources. If you have an extremist in your midst, you know

:18:06.:18:09.

for example somebody like Khuram Butt is in your midst but there is

:18:10.:18:12.

not enough to prosecute him but actually you want to detain and

:18:13.:18:15.

restrain him in some weight and you don't have the powers to do so just

:18:16.:18:19.

now, but keeping him off the streets is the main thing to do, you would

:18:20.:18:23.

look at a new law? We will always keep the law under review. At the

:18:24.:18:27.

moment we are convinced that with additional weasels is we can deal

:18:28.:18:36.

with these people within the rule of law. Is Shami Chakrabarti right,

:18:37.:18:38.

there is no need for any movement on the Human Rights Act? Certainly the

:18:39.:18:42.

architecture that we have of human rights allows the derogation. There

:18:43.:18:45.

is no difficulty derogating if you can show it is necessary and

:18:46.:18:49.

proportionate to do so. The Prime Minister is therefore absolutely

:18:50.:18:53.

right when she says that within the structures of our easy HR

:18:54.:18:57.

obligations, we could, if necessary, for example, if we felt it was

:18:58.:19:01.

vital, detain people without trial. Whether it would be a good thing to

:19:02.:19:05.

do it or not is another matter, but the powers do exist to allow that to

:19:06.:19:10.

happen. She is actually not saying anything new tonight at all, that is

:19:11.:19:13.

not the way she is putting it out first book that is not what I

:19:14.:19:19.

understood her today, and I was present when she spoke. She was

:19:20.:19:23.

going to review the legal framework and see what areas it would be

:19:24.:19:28.

improved, that is compatible with our human rights obligations and

:19:29.:19:31.

from my point of view it is a common-sense thing to do. It seems

:19:32.:19:35.

we are in familiar territory in one way. Actually when she was talking

:19:36.:19:39.

about before about social care, would that all would then not be a

:19:40.:19:43.

cap, that was the same story just a different form of language. You seem

:19:44.:19:54.

to be saying the same about this. This is clearly what you are saying

:19:55.:19:57.

tonight. We need to alter the law in some way to increase the possibility

:19:58.:20:00.

of fibre restraint or exclusion, we will look at that. Dominic Grieve,

:20:01.:20:03.

you or a lawyer, you know she was saying something different. I

:20:04.:20:05.

understood she wanted to review the law in terms of restricting people's

:20:06.:20:09.

liberty if there was evidence which could not be produced in court but

:20:10.:20:12.

there was intelligence evidence. Yes, it can be looked at further.

:20:13.:20:17.

80p, which we have at the moment, could be changed or improved. There

:20:18.:20:24.

are only seven restrictions at the moment. History has shown that they

:20:25.:20:28.

and control orders may have a limited use. That is not a reason

:20:29.:20:32.

why you shouldn't go away and look at them again. That is a sensible

:20:33.:20:37.

reaction by Government, and not one with which I have any difficulty.

:20:38.:20:42.

You are saying two days before an election, you have been on this

:20:43.:20:47.

programme many times arguing it against 90 days, arguing against 42

:20:48.:20:50.

days, arguing against control orders. You have always been the one

:20:51.:20:55.

to say that the law as it exists just now is sufficient to the tasks.

:20:56.:21:00.

You must be crossing your fingers. Not at all, I am always want to

:21:01.:21:04.

argue against gimmicks, absolutely. And given three does creep in

:21:05.:21:13.

because people feel that they have got to do something. But in fairness

:21:14.:21:16.

to the Prime Minister, if you listen to what she had to say this evening,

:21:17.:21:20.

reviewing how T -- Howell Tpims operate... She was saying

:21:21.:21:25.

amendments. Amending Tpims is perfectly reasonable, it can be done

:21:26.:21:29.

within the framework of our human rights obligations without any real

:21:30.:21:32.

difficulty of the situation warrants it. I don't have a problem with

:21:33.:21:37.

that. Clearly the detail will have to be looked that, but she is not

:21:38.:21:41.

wrong to raise such an issue. Two days before an election?

:21:42.:21:45.

Unfortunately these events have taken place four days before an

:21:46.:21:49.

election, we have to live with the consequences of that. We can't just

:21:50.:21:53.

ignore it and say, we will come back to it on Saturday. That is

:21:54.:21:56.

unreasonable for the opposition by Government. Thank you both very

:21:57.:21:58.

much. Hello, good evening

:21:59.:21:59.

from Walsall's New Art Gallery, here in the crucial political

:22:00.:22:03.

battleground of the West Midlands. The second last day

:22:04.:22:06.

of the election campaign is over. We'll hear the views

:22:07.:22:08.

of our own focus group in Walsall, and we'll have a profile

:22:09.:22:11.

of Jeremy Corbyn, the man who is Well, because this may prove to be

:22:12.:22:13.

an important signifier of the direction Britain is taking

:22:14.:22:18.

on Thursday night. That's because one way of describing

:22:19.:22:20.

the traditional election map of England is that Labour

:22:21.:22:23.

own the north, the Tories own the south, and the Midlands

:22:24.:22:25.

is a swing region that holds the balance of power

:22:26.:22:28.

and decides who runs A caricature, but one

:22:29.:22:30.

with a grain of truth in it. Now, that old order -

:22:31.:22:34.

that election map may be challenged on Thursday,

:22:35.:22:36.

but it is still interesting to look at this campaign

:22:37.:22:38.

from the perspective of a West Midlands marginal seat,

:22:39.:22:40.

and I'm sitting in one here. Walsall North is number 23

:22:41.:22:43.

on the Tory target list. It is one the party needs to win

:22:44.:22:45.

if Theresa May is to get a substantial majority,

:22:46.:22:49.

the kind of majority that justifies her decision

:22:50.:22:51.

to call the election. It is also the kind of seat

:22:52.:22:53.

she wants to win, because she wants to reach out to the parts of Britain

:22:54.:22:56.

the Tories have struggled to reach - places like this, with

:22:57.:23:00.

the characteristic industrial Here in Walsall, they've got a dry

:23:01.:23:02.

saying about the place. But international competition has

:23:03.:23:05.

made life more difficult and it is still one of the more

:23:06.:23:13.

deprived constituencies Today, nearly a fifth

:23:14.:23:16.

of the constituents receive some That's almost double

:23:17.:23:21.

the national average. David Winnick is up early

:23:22.:23:27.

looking for Labour votes. This has long been

:23:28.:23:35.

natural Labour territory. David Winnick captured

:23:36.:23:40.

the seat for Labour in 1979. But the old order is under

:23:41.:23:42.

challenge, and he is now defending Two years ago, he got 39% of

:23:43.:23:48.

the vote to the Conservatives' 33%. But this seat is one where Ukip's

:23:49.:23:57.

strong showing last time can shape If just half of those

:23:58.:24:00.

defect to the Tories, That's the outcome that

:24:01.:24:09.

Theresa May was hoping So, is that what will

:24:10.:24:14.

happen on Thursday? Well, we'll come back

:24:15.:24:23.

to Walsall in a minute. But, the penultimate day

:24:24.:24:25.

of the campaign is over. Nick Watt, our Political Editor,

:24:26.:24:27.

has been notching up the miles during the last few weeks,

:24:28.:24:30.

and is with me now. Almost there, Nick! What is the

:24:31.:24:39.

feeling, particularly in the Tory camp at the moment? There are some

:24:40.:24:43.

pretty nervous and some pretty angry ministers. One minister told me,

:24:44.:24:48.

Theresa May has had the worst imaginable campaign and her stock

:24:49.:24:52.

has absolutely plummeted. There is furious about U-turn on social care,

:24:53.:24:57.

and also the less than sort of Sunni approach of this Tory campaign. A

:24:58.:25:01.

minister told me, this whole campaign has gone sour. They think

:25:02.:25:06.

they are going to win, but not win as emphatically as they had hoped,

:25:07.:25:12.

and the blame is being laid squarely at the door of the Prime Minister's

:25:13.:25:14.

joint chiefs of staff, Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill. We all here in

:25:15.:25:19.

Walsall, I have been up in the North East looking at another seat that

:25:20.:25:22.

the Tories would dearly love to win. Here is my report.

:25:23.:25:27.

At last, our strong and stable Prime Minister has located...

:25:28.:25:29.

Theresa May briefly took up residence in a sturdy stable to

:25:30.:25:33.

deliver her main campaign message of the day.

:25:34.:25:37.

The clear choice for people is, who do they trust to get the best

:25:38.:25:40.

Who has got the will, who has got the plan

:25:41.:25:44.

for those Brexit negotiations, because they start only 11 days

:25:45.:25:47.

after polling day, and they are the basis of everything else.

:25:48.:25:50.

A big focus on Brexit could only mean the

:25:51.:25:52.

We were told at the beginning of this campaign that

:25:53.:26:05.

it would be a presidential tour by Theresa May,

:26:06.:26:07.

with you only playing a

:26:08.:26:09.

Now, with 48 hours to go and after a faltering campaign by

:26:10.:26:14.

Theresa May, you are playing a prominent role.

:26:15.:26:16.

So is the Prime Minister is so alarmed by the

:26:17.:26:18.

success of Jeremy Corbyn, the man you described as a mugwump,

:26:19.:26:21.

I think wholly accurately, by the way!

:26:22.:26:25.

Is she hoping that the Boris Johnson Heineken effect is going to reach

:26:26.:26:30.

out to voters in parts of this country where she is struggling?

:26:31.:26:35.

Nick, I have been engaging with you, with the voters in this country,

:26:36.:26:39.

But the point is, there is one choice for people on Thursday.

:26:40.:26:45.

It boils down to a clear and simple choice between a

:26:46.:26:51.

strong and determined woman in the form of Theresa May,

:26:52.:26:53.

who in my view has a fantastic plan for Brexit, and

:26:54.:27:01.

understands we need to take this country forward.

:27:02.:27:05.

And Jeremy Corbyn, who is at very best weak and

:27:06.:27:07.

So Boris Johnson travelled to the North East seat of

:27:08.:27:15.

To deliver an impassioned speech about the dangers

:27:16.:27:20.

A month ago, Newsnight launched its general election

:27:21.:27:25.

Corbyn-mania had yet to sweep into one working men's club.

:27:26.:27:33.

He's stronger, he has come back and he is

:27:34.:27:46.

So he is coming round, he has two days to go.

:27:47.:27:51.

So, Danny, I saw you a month ago at the beginning of the campaign. I'm

:27:52.:28:02.

wondering, one month on, have you changed your views at all? No,

:28:03.:28:07.

definitely not. It's nice to see you again. It's nice for you to come and

:28:08.:28:12.

see us for the feedback. But definitely not. Theresa May had high

:28:13.:28:16.

hopes of capturing this rock-solid Labour seat at the start of the

:28:17.:28:20.

election campaign. One month on there are some signs that Jeremy

:28:21.:28:25.

Corbyn's successful campaign is paying dividends. But there are

:28:26.:28:28.

natural supporters who simply will not support him. Over in the rule

:28:29.:28:36.

all Tory supporting area of the constituency, there is support for

:28:37.:28:40.

Theresa May, although her campaign slips have been noticed. What do you

:28:41.:28:46.

think of Theresa May's campaign? Well, she's basically spoilt it when

:28:47.:28:53.

she did the U-turn. She was going all right until Ben. Well, I did

:28:54.:28:58.

like Theresa May very much. But I think she's been very indecisive

:28:59.:29:03.

over a lot of things. I just don't know. The Prime Minister of the

:29:04.:29:12.

United Kingdom, Theresa May. The feel of Theresa May's campaign early

:29:13.:29:17.

in the day gave way to a more energetic rally tonight in the

:29:18.:29:19.

gritty surroundings of Slough, the final stretch in which our leader's

:29:20.:29:24.

feat for barely touch the ground. It has been a strange election -

:29:25.:29:29.

to me, it feels as though the important debates about Brexit

:29:30.:29:32.

and the overall direction of And now we know they have to finish

:29:33.:29:35.

by this time tomorrow. And to get a taste of how all this

:29:36.:29:44.

has played with voters in this marginal seat,

:29:45.:29:47.

we convened a panel A small focus group of people

:29:48.:29:49.

who have been Labour or Tory, or undecided

:29:50.:29:52.

between Labour and Tory. Ipsos Mori selected

:29:53.:29:54.

the panel for us, and, as this is a Labour seat,

:29:55.:29:56.

there is a tilt towards Labour in the numbers,

:29:57.:29:59.

but Tories and undecideds I looked back on the campaign

:30:00.:30:01.

with the panel, to gauge their views on some of the key moments

:30:02.:30:05.

and themes. Thank you for coming and let's talk

:30:06.:30:13.

about the election campaign and which bits made an impression on due

:30:14.:30:17.

and which have not. And where you think he is. -- made an impression

:30:18.:30:25.

on you. To start with security and terror which has dominated sadly

:30:26.:30:29.

much of the campaign. Samantha, has that effect it for you your view of

:30:30.:30:35.

the political parties, you're thinking about this election? It has

:30:36.:30:39.

not changed my thoughts on the political parties, it has remained

:30:40.:30:47.

the same as before. It has made the undecided because I want to feel

:30:48.:30:51.

safe on the streets, I want my children to be safe and then

:30:52.:30:54.

obviously my children will have children. As it is now I am

:30:55.:31:04.

uncertain, I feel we are on site. -- I feel we are on say. We'll bring

:31:05.:31:10.

the perpetrators of the attacks but is anywhere else you blame, people

:31:11.:31:13.

you think of lead the country down? -- we will blame. Personally I think

:31:14.:31:22.

the government has let us down. It seems to be dividing communities. We

:31:23.:31:27.

are supposed to be multicultural and we are on paper but we are not. All

:31:28.:31:33.

the communities are separate. If you're not together there will never

:31:34.:31:40.

be peace. I think security is let us down as well. They knew one of them,

:31:41.:31:48.

in the London terrorist attack that carried out the attack. They could

:31:49.:31:50.

have done something earlier and they did not. Has that affected your

:31:51.:31:56.

thinking about the political parties? I think that it has. I

:31:57.:32:02.

think Theresa May, I do not think she is doing herself any favours

:32:03.:32:07.

with the things she has said. She said things previously about the

:32:08.:32:10.

police that they are bringing back but I do not think that is helping

:32:11.:32:14.

her at the moment. Thinking back to the Manchester or London attack, is

:32:15.:32:19.

that anyone who comes to mind you think captured the moment, who spoke

:32:20.:32:23.

the nation? Who gave the impression of leadership on the issue? I think

:32:24.:32:30.

Jeremy Corbyn did quite well with what he had to say. I think what I

:32:31.:32:36.

do -- I think we need more police on the streets. They have been reduced

:32:37.:32:40.

and local police station has been shut down. If we have an emergency,

:32:41.:32:46.

we're waiting half an hour, and are for something to be done. One of the

:32:47.:32:50.

things often said about voters and terror attacks, is when you're

:32:51.:32:55.

thinking about security they tend perhaps to think in more

:32:56.:33:00.

conservative, right wing ways. For health that is more left. Both --

:33:01.:33:06.

but if anyone who has felt more inclined to vote Conservative as a

:33:07.:33:09.

result of what has happened in this campaign? Heads shaking. How many

:33:10.:33:17.

would say you feel more inclined to vote for Labour as a result of the

:33:18.:33:22.

terror attacks? Several of you. I would like to talk about leadership

:33:23.:33:25.

because that has been quite a big issue in the campaign, both parties

:33:26.:33:31.

made something of that. Who would like to say what the Tories slogan

:33:32.:33:36.

was relating to leadership in the earlier part of the campaign. If I

:33:37.:33:40.

say there was a three word slogan they were using a lot? Strong and

:33:41.:33:48.

stable. How many of you recognise those words is being used by the

:33:49.:33:55.

Conservative Party? Did you hear them repeating that a lot because

:33:56.:34:00.

people used to said they only had three words. They were saying that

:34:01.:34:07.

often. I never heard anyone say something so often. I'm tired of

:34:08.:34:13.

seeing Theresa May, she's always there. Strong and stable. OK, I get

:34:14.:34:22.

it. I think the Jeremy Corbyn one stands out more. For the many and

:34:23.:34:30.

not the few. How many of you know that phrase, for the many, not the

:34:31.:34:35.

few? That one was getting a bit battered. How many of you think that

:34:36.:34:42.

strong and stable is a good way to describe Theresa May? How many of

:34:43.:34:50.

you do not think strong and stable is a good way of describing Theresa

:34:51.:34:58.

May? A couple of abstentions. Why were you laughing when I said strong

:34:59.:35:03.

and stable? Were not strong and stable with Theresa May because of

:35:04.:35:10.

the policing cuts. I think that is the number-1 issue. We cannot be

:35:11.:35:14.

strong and stable without police and we are not secure. We need to

:35:15.:35:18.

prevent these attacks from happening. None of you thought

:35:19.:35:20.

Theresa May represents and stability? You were not persuaded by

:35:21.:35:29.

the slogan? I have never seen anyone so weak and feeble in my life. I

:35:30.:35:35.

didn't think she was quite clever to be asking for this election because

:35:36.:35:41.

she thought she was in a very strong position to win. But as the time has

:35:42.:35:46.

gone on I think she could have shot herself in the foot. What has she

:35:47.:35:56.

shot herself in the foot on? The series of events with the terrorism

:35:57.:35:59.

things, the policing, the things that she is saying and all that

:36:00.:36:05.

about dementia and people's homes to pay for their care. I do not think

:36:06.:36:10.

that helped her. That has overshot the campaign. How many of you have

:36:11.:36:16.

seen your opinion of Theresa May go up during this election campaign?

:36:17.:36:21.

None of you. How many of you think your opinion of her has gone down

:36:22.:36:26.

during the election campaign? What about Jeremy Corbyn, has your

:36:27.:36:31.

opinion of Jeremy Corbyn gone up during the campaign? You're putting

:36:32.:36:38.

your hand up tentatively. I would not stay up or down, I am undecided

:36:39.:36:44.

about him in general. But it has not gone. How many dig your opinion of

:36:45.:37:17.

him has gone down during the campaign? None of you. I'm going to

:37:18.:37:18.

weed out some words and I want you to shout simultaneously. Shout the

:37:19.:37:20.

name Jeremy Corbyn or Theresa May. Which one looks more confident?

:37:21.:37:20.

Jeremy Corbyn. More prime Mysterio? Jeremy Corbyn. More serious? Theresa

:37:21.:37:26.

May. More confident? Jeremy Corbyn. More compassionate? Jeremy Corbyn.

:37:27.:37:30.

So you are entering Jeremy Corbyn to most of those questions. -- you are

:37:31.:37:38.

answering. I want to ask you a question to finish, the choice you

:37:39.:37:43.

are facing, you have expressed the view that it comes down to Labour or

:37:44.:37:47.

Tory. Other parties would beg to differ I know. How many of you think

:37:48.:37:54.

that the choice you have this time is a good choice? I've -- but it is

:37:55.:38:04.

a good election with a fair selection of candidates. How many of

:38:05.:38:08.

you think oh my goodness it is a dilemma, you are picking the least

:38:09.:38:16.

bad rather than the most good? Just go round on whether it is an

:38:17.:38:20.

election we are picking a good one or a least bad one? You have to go

:38:21.:38:27.

with what is important to you. So the policies that Jeremy has and

:38:28.:38:33.

Theresa May has come at you go with which our most important to you

:38:34.:38:37.

overall. How do you think you will go? Undecided. I was going to vote

:38:38.:38:49.

Tory but as Theresa May has gone a long her campaign has kind of weak

:38:50.:38:54.

and whereas I have seen Jeremy Corbyn get stronger. That has made

:38:55.:38:58.

me weep a bit. So I am a bit undecided. Mark, to have the last

:38:59.:39:13.

word! I am sitting on the fence. From what I've heard, I think it is

:39:14.:39:23.

going more towards the Labour Party. Roy, you were a Labour voter, do you

:39:24.:39:28.

think that this is an election where it is a choice or a dilemma, is it

:39:29.:39:33.

about the best or the least bad? I think is a different choice, between

:39:34.:39:40.

a new weight or an old way. The old way has not been doing so well so

:39:41.:39:45.

let us try the new way. I think the Labour Party are setting out the

:39:46.:39:50.

things that are important to most people, the NHS, education,

:39:51.:39:53.

policing. A better choice than last time when it was David Cameron or Ed

:39:54.:40:01.

Miliband? Definitely, much better. A really good election with a clear

:40:02.:40:05.

choice, Jeremy Corbyn all the way and a lot of optimism here and

:40:06.:40:09.

exciting times it hopefully he gets in. Tory voter lifetime, where are

:40:10.:40:21.

you now? Still undecided. The last time when it was David Cameron and

:40:22.:40:25.

Ed Miliband it was a clear choice because Cameron was the stronger

:40:26.:40:32.

leader. But this time, I am going to wait until Thursday I think. Just

:40:33.:40:38.

choose the last minute. Quite a few undecideds. You have not got long.

:40:39.:40:45.

On paper I do not think any of them are standout leaders. Not like

:40:46.:40:51.

Barack Obama, you think he is a leader. How do you think you will

:40:52.:40:55.

go? I would rather not say. You see Jeremy Corbyn

:40:56.:41:04.

getting a relatively warm reception in that group -

:41:05.:41:06.

is that the prevalent view in places like this,

:41:07.:41:08.

or was the panel untypical? You never know until

:41:09.:41:11.

the day, do you? Well, here in Walsall's

:41:12.:41:14.

New Art Gallery with me are Andrew Mitchell,

:41:15.:41:16.

who has been the MP for Sutton Coldfield since 2001

:41:17.:41:18.

and is the former Secretary of State Liam Byrne has been the MP

:41:19.:41:21.

for Birmingham Hodge Hill since 2004, and was a member

:41:22.:41:25.

of the Shadow Front Bench Andrew Mitchell, do you agree with

:41:26.:41:42.

those other senior colleagues, that this has been a terrible Tory

:41:43.:41:49.

campaign? This is my ninth general election as a Parliamentary

:41:50.:41:52.

candidate and I have never known any of those elections not experience

:41:53.:41:57.

quite a lot of turbulence in the Conservative Party and this is no

:41:58.:41:59.

exception. But over the past month I have been in a number of targeted

:42:00.:42:04.

and marginal seats across the Midlands. I think it was never as

:42:05.:42:09.

good for the Conservative Party as at the beginning, I do not think it

:42:10.:42:13.

is as bad as some media are suggesting it is now. I think on the

:42:14.:42:17.

ground there is a different battle going on to the battle going on in

:42:18.:42:21.

the national media. You say you have done nine, can you think of a worse

:42:22.:42:28.

Conservative campaign than this? I think there have always been

:42:29.:42:33.

difficulties with campaign. I'm not going to do that. I think they have

:42:34.:42:38.

always been difficulties. But on the doorstep I think a lot of the media

:42:39.:42:42.

froth that characterises the national campaign is not bear and I

:42:43.:42:45.

think people across the Midlands are making up their minds who they want

:42:46.:42:49.

to deal with Brexit and who they think will run the economy best

:42:50.:42:53.

after the general election is over. Liam Byrne, what is your critique of

:42:54.:43:02.

the Tory campaign? I think it has been interesting, Theresa May went

:43:03.:43:05.

into the election thinking it was a con election. She wanted to make the

:43:06.:43:12.

pitch to hire me as your chief negotiator but that has not worked

:43:13.:43:15.

because people already have factored in Brexit and they want to move

:43:16.:43:20.

beyond it. So the election has been revealed actually as I change

:43:21.:43:24.

election. And Labour have put some bold offers on the table, around 6%

:43:25.:43:32.

increase in public spending and that has resonated. People do not want

:43:33.:43:36.

more of the same. At the beginning it was thought that this could

:43:37.:43:39.

redraw the map and bring the Tories back into blue-collar areas, destroy

:43:40.:43:46.

Ukip, replace Labour as a party of aspiration and the working class. In

:43:47.:43:51.

your opinion is that happening or basically is it retreating to the

:43:52.:43:58.

traditional two parties? I think is retreating to the traditional

:43:59.:44:02.

2-party election but that is not inconsistent with some of the points

:44:03.:44:05.

we made about the collapse of Ukip and so on. But I think the media set

:44:06.:44:11.

of very low bar for Jeremy Corbyn. He has had a good election campaign,

:44:12.:44:18.

to be fair. But as he goes blasting up the arterial roads of Britain

:44:19.:44:22.

lobbing 50-pound notes at every interest group that there is, I

:44:23.:44:26.

think here in the Midlands on the doorsteps the reaction I'm getting,

:44:27.:44:29.

people are suspicious of that. They do not think there is a magic cure

:44:30.:44:33.

and I think it will come down to those two points I made at the

:44:34.:44:39.

start, Brexit and the economy. In focus group Brexit, they did not

:44:40.:44:42.

know enough about the different pitches for that to be decisive. But

:44:43.:44:48.

to talk about vulnerabilities of the quadrant campaign and money.

:44:49.:44:52.

Starting with money because you the guy who wrote the famous note about

:44:53.:44:55.

the money that the money running out. Do you think people will buy

:44:56.:44:59.

the pain of idea that you can raise public spending by five, 10%, and

:45:00.:45:08.

not notice or find any, that you are paying for?

:45:09.:45:16.

Is Labour being honest? Look, the costed programme is about ?48.6

:45:17.:45:24.

billion, 80% of that money would come from Corporation Tax going back

:45:25.:45:31.

up, the financial transaction tax. The experts said that that will have

:45:32.:45:36.

costs, it will feed through to prices, wages, shareholders,

:45:37.:45:40.

pensions. The figures that have been put on the table are the best

:45:41.:45:44.

available. The key thing is that the spending plans, it is about a 6%

:45:45.:45:49.

increase in public spending, are matched by the tax plans, which are

:45:50.:45:54.

seen as fair. Theresa May's problem is that she went into this election

:45:55.:45:58.

without having a pre-election budget. Her manifesto has unravelled

:45:59.:46:03.

very quickly because there are no numbers to go with it. The other

:46:04.:46:07.

vulnerability is that everybody in the Parliamentary party, most of

:46:08.:46:11.

them, voted that they have no confidence in the guide, including

:46:12.:46:15.

yourself. We're not talking about ancient history, it's less than a

:46:16.:46:19.

year ago that you said I have no confidence in the sky. Do you now

:46:20.:46:25.

have confidence in him? This is not a presidential election. Do you have

:46:26.:46:29.

confidence in him or not Brazil and I am voting for him, so I do have

:46:30.:46:35.

confidence in him. We have put together a plan which has united

:46:36.:46:38.

what is a broad church in the Labour Party. You must have either been

:46:39.:46:44.

wrong one year ago when you said you had no-confidence in him, or not

:46:45.:46:49.

have confidence in him now. There is a logic in that. I'm not avoiding

:46:50.:46:53.

the question. The key thing that has changed from one year ago is that

:46:54.:46:57.

one plant has been put on the table which has been drawn from all parts

:46:58.:47:02.

of the Labour Party, the broad church of the Labour movement. It is

:47:03.:47:07.

a very different proposition. Do you think the Tories underestimated

:47:08.:47:11.

Jeremy Corbyn at the beginning of this campaign? The media set a low

:47:12.:47:16.

bar. I have never underestimated Jeremy Corbyn, I have worked with

:47:17.:47:20.

him in parliament and probably know him better than many parliamentary

:47:21.:47:24.

colleagues. Liem is existing wished former businessman and he will know

:47:25.:47:30.

that you cannot -- is a distinguished former businessman.

:47:31.:47:33.

You cannot get all of this money by just taxing the 5%. On the doorsteps

:47:34.:47:38.

in the Midlands, people's eyes have narrowed and I believe they will

:47:39.:47:42.

vote for the Conservative Party on Thursday. Thank you both very much.

:47:43.:47:47.

You can find a full list of the candidates from both the Walsall

:47:48.:47:48.

constituencies on the BBC website. You probably know the old saying

:47:49.:47:51.

that you never get a second chance Well, maybe Jeremy Corbyn has belied

:47:52.:47:54.

that particular claim. For many people, first impressions

:47:55.:47:57.

of him were drawn from his apparent reluctance to sing the national

:47:58.:48:00.

anthem back in 2015 just after becoming Labour leader -

:48:01.:48:03.

a moment that had Tory But in this campaign,

:48:04.:48:05.

many people have evidently come His approval ratings

:48:06.:48:08.

have improved markedly. Which is interesting,

:48:09.:48:11.

as he has of course been We asked Stephen Bush,

:48:12.:48:13.

a special correspondent at the New Statesman magazine,

:48:14.:48:17.

and the journalist who perhaps before anyone else recognised that

:48:18.:48:19.

Mr Corbyn was going to be Labour leader, to make a film for us

:48:20.:48:22.

offering us his account Jeremy Corbyn comes from a place

:48:23.:48:25.

unlike any other Labour leader. He leads a party where his own MPs

:48:26.:48:34.

have voted against him twice. He's abandoned everything history

:48:35.:48:42.

tells us Labour must do to win. Yet, the more the country has seen

:48:43.:48:45.

of him in this campaign, the more his appeal has

:48:46.:48:48.

seemed to grow. So what have we all missed

:48:49.:48:53.

about the Corbyn project? By day, he's fighting to change

:48:54.:49:00.

the Labour Party and campaigning. By evening, he is fighting

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to change the Labour It is in effect not just

:49:06.:49:07.

the end of Blairism, It is the end of an entire moment

:49:08.:49:11.

in British politics. His appeal is too wide

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and too deep to be ignored. Corbyn was born in 1949,

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and grew up in the small Shropshire Other Labour leaders

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from comfortable upbringings, like Clement Attlee and Tony Blair,

:49:22.:49:24.

discovered their ideals But Jeremy Corbyn emerged almost

:49:25.:49:26.

fully formed from his upbringing I am from a working-class part

:49:27.:49:33.

of London, he is a very And what struck me, he'd

:49:34.:49:40.

had quite a privileged He didn't have things

:49:41.:49:49.

of the inner-city. But that is what he wanted

:49:50.:49:56.

for everyone else. His parents, David and Naomi,

:49:57.:49:59.

had met while campaigning for the Republicans

:50:00.:50:01.

during the Spanish Civil War. David was an official in the local

:50:02.:50:03.

Labour Party, and Corbyn joined The young Jeremy was often

:50:04.:50:06.

tasked with connecting But it was at home where his

:50:07.:50:10.

politics were shaped. There was an atmosphere both

:50:11.:50:13.

in my house and indeed in Jeremy's house of the parents

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and the youngsters talking together quite seriously about politics

:50:17.:50:18.

and being taken seriously, Their first campaign

:50:19.:50:20.

was the 1964 election, when Harold Wilson ended 13

:50:21.:50:29.

years of Conservative rule. We did do things together,

:50:30.:50:34.

fundraising, it was in a marginal constituency and it was worth

:50:35.:50:38.

getting out on the streets for. And that's what every party wants

:50:39.:50:41.

to know from its canvassers. It wants to pinpoint its supporters

:50:42.:50:45.

and make sure that it can get everyone to the polls

:50:46.:50:49.

on October 15th. He left his traditional school

:50:50.:50:55.

with only two E grades at A-level, In an early example of activism,

:50:56.:50:57.

he had refused to join the school's Conscientious objectors like Corbyn

:50:58.:51:02.

were instead allowed to mow We had a little room

:51:03.:51:05.

where we could disappear when we had done all the jobs

:51:06.:51:13.

and make ourselves a cup of tea. Because it was a time of great

:51:14.:51:16.

political discussion. But Vietnam, combined

:51:17.:51:20.

with Wilson's failure to really transform Britain,

:51:21.:51:22.

meant many on the left By the time Corbyn moved

:51:23.:51:25.

to London in the 1970s, To fix Labour, its members needed

:51:26.:51:32.

to take over the party. To fight the leadership

:51:33.:51:35.

at every level. On everything from foreign policy

:51:36.:51:39.

to management of policing. And the Home Secretary had to reply

:51:40.:51:48.

to attacks on the police, like this If this government can find time

:51:49.:51:51.

and money, apparently, to appease the police,

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how is it they have not found the time to do anything to bring

:51:56.:51:57.

about democratic control You have to remember that

:51:58.:52:00.

on the left, at end of the 1970s, our most important campaign

:52:01.:52:09.

was the campaign for And the point about the campaign

:52:10.:52:11.

for Labour Party democracy was that it placed the most value

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on members and members That is why today I think

:52:17.:52:19.

Jeremy thinks, correctly, that his legitimacy comes

:52:20.:52:28.

from the fact that so many people If you want to understand

:52:29.:52:31.

Jeremy Corbyn's professional life, you have to understand this

:52:32.:52:39.

particular patch of From Haringey to Hornsey

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to Islington, he's always been more of a movement man

:52:42.:52:51.

than a professional politician. As a union organiser in Haringey,

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then a councillor in Hornsey, and finally in 1983,

:52:54.:52:56.

a safe seat in Islington North, his career covers the entirety

:52:57.:52:58.

of the Labour movement. His guiding principle

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in all these roles - Jeremy sees himself first

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and foremost accountable to the mass And much less so to

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the Parliamentary Labour Party. And he sees them as having been over

:53:19.:53:22.

the last two years, awkward, difficult, trying to undermine him,

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trying to obstruct what he has You have just seen the new Labour

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Party of Neil Kinnock. Glossy brochures, glossy

:53:28.:53:37.

words, glossy images. It all looks very comfortable

:53:38.:53:40.

and cosy, doesn't it? But when you look behind all

:53:41.:53:44.

the rosy covers, what do you find? Jeremy Corbyn, Labour candidate

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for Islington North. Defeat of the Tory government

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will be brought about by a series of disputes of which Parliament

:53:54.:53:56.

is only a part. The quote the Tories picked

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out was very important. Corbyn does see Westminster as only

:53:59.:54:01.

one front in a much bigger fight These positions were

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a gift to the Tories. This is Valerie Furness,

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Labour candidate for Nuneaton. A Labour government has got to take

:54:12.:54:16.

on the people who obstruct it, Somebody said, oh, Val,

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you're on the television. And that is when I

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first saw the poster. You know, I was on a

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poster with my friends. Even in the febrile 1980s,

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Corbyn and his allies They believed in stronger trade

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unions, significant redistribution, and that power was won not just

:54:39.:54:43.

in Westminster, but on the streets. Their associations too

:54:44.:54:46.

offended Middle England. Corbyn embraced Martin McGuinness

:54:47.:54:52.

when he was still a pariah, and he campaigned for those

:54:53.:54:55.

convicted wrongly of pub bombings. Critics saw him as an

:54:56.:54:57.

advocate for the IRA. It didn't work in 1987,

:54:58.:54:59.

those people got elected. It didn't work, the Guildford four

:55:00.:55:07.

were exonerated along And there was a peace

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agreement in Ireland. Mrs Thatcher is now edging towards

:55:10.:55:14.

an overall majority of 100... The problem for Corbyn

:55:15.:55:25.

was, in the late 1980s, the country and the Labour Party

:55:26.:55:27.

thought he was wrong. And it is going to be

:55:28.:55:30.

a record-breaking night. Three victories running

:55:31.:55:32.

for the Prime Minister... The Parliamentary Labour Party

:55:33.:55:34.

concluded, for Labour to ever win again, it had

:55:35.:55:37.

to bury its Corbynite elements. In 1996, Tony Blair joked

:55:38.:55:43.

about the very idea of a Corbyn leadership, saying you really don't

:55:44.:55:47.

have to worry about Jeremy Corbyn And in the resulting battle

:55:48.:55:50.

for the party's soul, We have been elected as New Labour

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and we will govern as New Labour. Jeremy Corbyn has always

:55:55.:56:07.

wanted one thing, which is And if you think of it in terms

:56:08.:56:09.

of who your opponents and who your enemies are,

:56:10.:56:18.

for Jeremy Corbyn Theresa His political enemies

:56:19.:56:20.

are in the Labour Party. People like me, people

:56:21.:56:26.

like Tony Blair, and it is Blairism. Just like after Harold Wilson,

:56:27.:56:30.

Corbynism was born out of disillusionment with

:56:31.:56:32.

the Labour government. After the party's second defeat

:56:33.:56:38.

in 2015, changes to the party's rules for electing its leader,

:56:39.:56:41.

intended to revive the party's I thought he had no chance

:56:42.:56:44.

of winning in May 2015. But convinced myself

:56:45.:56:52.

and others that if he fought a good populist campaign,

:56:53.:56:55.

he could get a decent And use it to start building

:56:56.:56:57.

what he has always wanted, which is an extra-parliamentary mass

:56:58.:57:05.

movement of progressive people. Under Corbyn, Labour

:57:06.:57:10.

membership has surged. And the Corbynites believe that

:57:11.:57:13.

a large base will keep the party on the left,

:57:14.:57:16.

preventing the compromises A Labour Party which was out

:57:17.:57:18.

of power but purged New Labour members and New Labour

:57:19.:57:31.

influence is the ambition Power is a by-product,

:57:32.:57:39.

because if you go to the root of what is supporters always talk

:57:40.:57:43.

about, it is always framed in terms Moving the terms on which

:57:44.:57:46.

we consider things in. All radical parties aim to change

:57:47.:57:49.

the language of politics. Clement Attlee in 1945,

:57:50.:57:53.

Margaret Thatcher in 1979. The Corbyn project aims

:57:54.:58:02.

to shift the debate, too. And this partly explains

:58:03.:58:04.

their defensiveness with the press. If you want to try and get good

:58:05.:58:06.

coverage, you want to try and get a page lead in the Daily Mail,

:58:07.:58:10.

page lead in The Sun, and work with the press,

:58:11.:58:15.

first of all you genuinely have to compromise on your policies

:58:16.:58:18.

and your politics. And, secondly, come a general

:58:19.:58:20.

election, as they did to Ed Miliband, they just throw

:58:21.:58:23.

the kitchen sink at you. So that compromise isn't

:58:24.:58:25.

worth it in the long one. Let's be clear that it's been

:58:26.:58:29.

very hard for him to get over a lot of the media,

:58:30.:58:34.

all through the time Now it's a general election,

:58:35.:58:37.

and there has got to be some sort of fairness in the media,

:58:38.:58:51.

even from the BBC. he is getting it over,

:58:52.:58:53.

he is getting it over. Any rise in support may be

:58:54.:58:57.

because Corbyn has compromised. Where once he railed

:58:58.:59:01.

against appeasing the police, he is now a loud defender

:59:02.:59:03.

of the Met. He abandoned decades

:59:04.:59:05.

of Euroscepticism to hold onto the leadership,

:59:06.:59:09.

and then switched back once Both those choices

:59:10.:59:11.

will form key planks To remain in charge,

:59:12.:59:14.

no matter the result on Thursday. A lot depends on June the 8th,

:59:15.:59:18.

but I think if he does better than Ed Miliband in terms

:59:19.:59:22.

of the vote share, then he would be well within his rights

:59:23.:59:25.

to stay on as leader. Having had only two years to try

:59:26.:59:28.

and change the Labour Party. Labour's performance in recent polls

:59:29.:59:34.

suggests that aim might be achieved. to restructure Labour so party

:59:35.:59:43.

members pull the strings, for policy to be made

:59:44.:59:47.

by the grassroots, For Labour to remain

:59:48.:59:49.

firmly on the left. That would all but guarantee

:59:50.:59:52.

Corbynism endures, through this Matthew Parris will be profiling

:59:53.:00:18.

Theresa May in tomorrow's programme. Two days to the vote, and this

:00:19.:00:23.

election has not been leading news bulletins today, as other grave

:00:24.:00:25.

matters have been concerned with. One day to go. Do they think there

:00:26.:00:34.

is much that can happen in the last day? This campaign will go American

:00:35.:00:41.

tomorrow, as the two candidates rack up a lot of miles as they travel

:00:42.:00:44.

across Great Britain. The interesting thing about this

:00:45.:00:48.

campaign is that it is going to test the idea that election campaigns to

:00:49.:00:52.

not have much of an impact in the result. In the Labour Party they are

:00:53.:00:55.

upbeat about the campaign but cautious about the result. They have

:00:56.:01:00.

to get out young voters, as we were saying earlier. The Tory campaign,

:01:01.:01:04.

senior figures are nervous and not happy about that campaign. Whatever

:01:05.:01:11.

the result, come Friday morning, I think the British political

:01:12.:01:13.

landscape will look different. Thanks, Nick.

:01:14.:01:15.

Thank you to the art museum for hosting us. I will be in Bolton

:01:16.:01:23.

tomorrow for the day before the vote. We will be in the place where

:01:24.:01:34.

Theresa May picked off her campaign. Another of our election guides. What

:01:35.:01:38.

is the fundamental choice you are making? See you tomorrow. Good

:01:39.:01:39.

night. Elections are sometimes a fight

:01:40.:01:49.

between tribes. Workers versus capitalists, unions versus

:01:50.:01:53.

nationalists, taxpayers versus welcome their recipients. Drivers

:01:54.:01:58.

versus cyclists. -- welfare recipients. Elections are often a

:01:59.:02:02.

fight between who is on top and who gets more of the pie. Not this one,

:02:03.:02:07.

though. Both the Conservatives and Labour fought to be on the same

:02:08.:02:11.

side, fighting for the same people. They are not fighting for those at

:02:12.:02:16.

the bottom. Neither side is making generous promises on welfare.

:02:17.:02:19.

Certainly they are not fighting for those at the top. This is a bad

:02:20.:02:24.

election for fat cats. Nobody is even paying lip service to trickle

:02:25.:02:28.

down economics these days. Everybody is fighting for the same ordinary

:02:29.:02:32.

working families. It is the lower middle that is moving up the

:02:33.:02:35.

political charts. With the main parties agreeing wombat, the choice

:02:36.:02:40.

comes down to this. Labour say the Tories don't mean it, they revert to

:02:41.:02:46.

type. A Tory leopard can't change its spots. The Tories say Labour

:02:47.:02:51.

cannot deliver, they will screw up. The Conservatives do socialism

:02:52.:02:55.

better than Labour ever can. That's this election - Paul Lawrie

:02:56.:02:59.

insincerity versus Labour incompetence, which is the greater

:03:00.:03:04.

risk? -- Tory insincerity. If you don't like ordinary working

:03:05.:03:08.

families, you'd best sit this one out.

:03:09.:03:11.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.

Mark Urban has the latest on the investigation into the London Bridge attackers, Evan Davis is in Walsall for the last days of election campaigning, and Stephen Bush has been on the trail of Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn.


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