06/06/2017 Newsnight


Mark Urban has the latest on the investigation into the London Bridge attackers, and Evan Davis is in Walsall for the last days of election campaigning.

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There's one day of campaigning left in an election dominated by two


terrorist attacks in the space of two weeks.


We now know the identity of all three London Bridge killers.


What does who they were tell us about how well protected we are?


In the case of Youssef Zaghba there are questions about why if the


Italian authorities were worried about him going to Syria to fight


that the information was not passed on and if it was, it was not dealt


with more efficiently. We hear from a former head


of Prevent at the Foreign office about the Government's


anti-radicalisation strategy. Undoubtedly there is a branding


problem, the brand of the Prevent strategy has become tarnished. We've


had cases where teachers or those working in the NHS are not willing


to be involved. Tonight, Theresa May says


she will consider changing human rights law to restrict the freedom


of movement of suspected militants. If our human rights laws stop us


doing it we will change them so we can do it.


We put that to the Shadow Attorney General and a former


The polls have shown a race that's been tightening.


The seat in the north of this town is one that the Labour


and Conservative parties both really want to win.


I think it's a definite choice for people to choose either


I mean, the old way has not been doing too well.


Stephen Bush looks at who and what shaped his politics as a young man.


And the Home Secretary had to reply to attacks on the police, like this


If this Government can find time and money, apparently,


to appease the police, how is it they have not found


the time to do anything to bring about democratic control


We begin tonight's extended programme here in London on the day


we learned the name of the third London Bridge attacker.


He was Youssef Zaghba, an Italian national of Moroccan


His background is different again to the two killers we already know.


As the Prime Minister announces tonight that a Tory government


would consider amending human rights law to restrict the freedom


and movement of terrorist suspects, we examine the depth and breadth


of the terror threat and how to counter it.


First, with what we know so far about the attackers,


here's our Diplomatic Editor, Mark Urban.


For the police and MI5, the three perpetrators


are worthy of study, not least in understanding how


Today the authorities confirmed the identity of Youssef Zaghba.


Of Moroccan and Italian parentage, he lived in Bologna before


TRANSLATION: He went to London to go back. Here there is not anything, he


went to work. At least that is what he said. In March of last year the


Italian authorities had stopped Youssef Zaghba using a one-way air


to Turkey and they believed he was about to join the jihad in Syria.


The Italian said that they told Britain. The UK authorities say that


he was not a subject of interest. We see this a lot where one agency has


the intelligence and it says we passed it to our partner agency but


obviously a lot of these organisations rely on liaison


officers to do this. And quite often sometimes the liaison officer will


not have done it all it has not been put on the right system. And


troubling new facts have emerged about Khuram Butt also. Pakistani


born but raised in this country, he had long associated with the


Al-Muhajiroun militant group featuring in a documentary on them.


But it also became clear today that he had threatened summer Hassan last


July in a park. He you work for Quilliam, used by Muslims and


government money to work against Muslims. How dare you come to a


Muslim event, you are an apostate. All very aggressive. And very


threatening. Because in the mind of extremists, if you declare a Muslim


and nonbeliever then there is an automatic death penalty in their


mind. It is a well-known technique of intimidation. A scuffle resulted


and Khuram Butt received a police caution after Doctor Hassan reported


him. I said in my professional judgment he is part of the network


which is openly pro-Islamic state in the UK. And the threat to national


security. But -- Khuram Butt had been the subject of interest but his


status had been downgraded because it was not thought to be involved in


any active plots. The type of judgment that MI5 guy monitoring


3000 suspects, must constantly make. Some of these people come from


backgrounds where they had long-standing patterns of


Association with radical networks, a history of radical activism. One of


the individuals in this plot, Khuram Butt for example, fits into bad


character and personality type. But in other cases people come from a


completely fresh background without ever having been known to the


authorities. The third London Bridge killer, Rachid Redouane, fits into


that last category. He was not on the radar. Libyan and Moroccan, 30


he was the oldest of group. This afternoon police raided this address


in Ilford in east London. They remove some items, part of the


search to map the relationship of the suspects with one another and


the wider militant network in the capital. Three men with quite


different backgrounds. Inevitably some of the questions in this


investigation will become central to planning how to prevent similar


actions in the future. How did they meet if it was not online or at a


mosque. What was the basis of the relationship between the men. And


when exactly did they form the intention for this joint enterprise


of murder on London Bridge. Certainly it is plausible and likely


that an attack of this kind could be put together in a matter of hours


because it uses everyday items, a rented van, knives are no sense of


building an explosive device or doing something that would require a


lot of planning and reconnaissance. This is very instantaneous and easy,


a dumbed down form of terrorism. Those are now investigate and would


try to stop another attack has found a disparate group of fanatics armed


with everyday objects. It is a fearsome challenge for anyone to


stop. Over the past few weeks,


there have been repeated questions around the Government's Prevent


strategy - designed to stop Our reporter Richard Watson has been


speaking to a former head This is a time of difficult


questions for the police and MI5. Absolutely. The Italian attacker was


on the radar in Italy and so the focus will be what specific


information was given to British authorities. We know from yesterday


that the first attacker to be identified, Khuram Butt, was on the


radar as well. He was investigated themes and even featured in a


Channel 4 documentary. So he had strong links with Al-Muhajiroun. In


a rare interview I spoke to the former head of the Prevent strategy,


a man called Arthur Snell and he spent his career in government


counter terrorism circles. This is what he said.


I think, you know, that situation, somebody who has, as you say,


has appeared in a TV documentary almost sort of celebrating his own


kind of hardline views and hardline status.


But I would go back to the point that you've got 500 active


investigations, 3000 people being looked at.


Now, in the case of Khuram Butt, what we must assume is the police


took a look at him, and the police and other authorities drew


a conclusion at that time that he wasn't planning


What does this say about prevent? Most people accept there was some


serious problems in the early days of the Prevent strategy. There was a


lot of money around, and in some cases money was given to people with


ultraconservative views quite inappropriately. I spoke to Arthur


Snell and he accepts the argument but says beyond that the core


activity of the Prevent strategy needs to continue.


Undoubtedly a branding problem, you know.


The brand of Prevent has become tarnished for various reasons.


We've seen cases where, for example, teachers or people working


in the NHS are very unwilling to be involved.


But if we ask, what is the point of Prevent?


The point of Prevent is to stop people from becoming


terrorists in the first place, to address the underlying


causes that drag people into terrorist activity.


That is an important activity for the Government,


and it has never been more important than the time we are in now.


If Prevent needs to be rebranded, I don't have any problem with that.


Is there an issue now of the direction of travel of the


government anti-terrorism strategy? Get them early on ordeal -- ordeal


with extremists? This has been under debate for more than a decade, do


you focus just on violent extremists or do bogus as well on the so-called


non-violent extremists, people with ultraconservative views which may be


unpalatable but do not breach the law. That question is very tricky.


The live music seems to be moving towards tackling extremism now,


non-violent extremism but there are risks to that. If you effectively


alienate a large section of your Muslim population then the damage


the flow of community intelligence and so some people think you need to


look more structured questions such as how to give these young people


avenues to success so that they do not otherwise have those. But


critics could say that could be a 20 year plan.


Let's drill down now into one question -


how should terrorists who fit the profile of Kaurem Butt,


a man known to the authorities, who could be said to be hiding


As we now know, Khuram Butt was on the radar of the security


services well in advance of the London Bridge attack,


As we now know, Khuram Butt was on the radar of the security


but was still able to carry out his murderous rampage.


So, what type of reform should we be looking


at across a range of areas to prevent known troublemakers


from planning and executing further deadly attacks?


We asked four experts for their thoughts.


As Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation throughout


the period of control orders, I saw how effective they were.


They relocated people from the people with


They put controls on their use of computers and mobile telephony,


they enabled the authorities to know exactly what they were doing.


They worked, and I believe they saved many lives.


Khuram Butt should have been subject to something like a control order.


If he'd been under a control order, he would not have done


what he did, and probably the others wouldn't, either.


We know that at least one of the London Bridge attackers had


been watching extremist videos on YouTube, and, you know,


this follows so many concerns about the way in which it's


incredibly easy to access content about how to make a nail bomb,


how to commit an attack, it's so easy to access that content


The US tech companies have got to start taking action.


That means aggressively and proactively taking down content,


and it means hiring enough people that they can respond to complaints


The threat that we are facing here is low-tech terrorism.


It's a bunch of guys in someone's front room making a plot,


arming themselves with kitchen knives and then going on the street


We mustn't forget that the 20/7 attackers were identified


by a community officer who dealt with a simple dispute


on Oxford Street that led to their identification


And that is the value of community police officers.


And they're the ones suffering from these cuts.


As a community organiser, I feel that we need a third option.


One that can be used by families and communities to engage


with people who are vulnerable to radicalisation, before a formal


However, the current political climate doesn't allow for that


Also, we need the reassurance that information and intelligence


provided by communities will be taken seriously and be acted upon.


Let's pick up on one of those points there -


do the authorities have the powers they need to tackle extremism?


It would appear that Theresa May, a former Home Secretary,


At a rally tonight, she indicated she would be prepared to change some


human rights laws to bear down harder on the terror threat.


I mean making it easier for the authorities to deport


foreign terrorist suspects back to their own country.


And I mean doing more to restrict the freedom of movement of terrorist


suspects when we have enough evidence to know they are a threat,


but not enough evidence to prosecute them in full import.


And if our human rights laws stop us from doing it,


we'll change the laws so we can do it.


We did ask to speak to the Government tonight,


Joining me now - for Labour, Shami Chakrabarti,


the Shadow Attorney General, and Dominic Grieve, the former


Conservative Attorney General and Chair of the Intelligence


Good evening to both of you. Shami Chakrabarti, you could be Attorney


General in two days' time if the authorities came to you and said, we


need to make an alteration to the human rights law so that we can


exclude more easily or crack down on them, would you deny it? Our


commitment is to deal with terror suspects within the rule of law,


including the human rights. It is interesting, this is a familiar knee


jerk of Theresa May that we have heard before. A few years ago she


was talking about caps. Now she has gone for an anti-human rights dog


whistle. A few days earlier when she was standing in Downing Street, she


said that terrorists are against human rights and we are going to


protect our liberal society. There is no detail from Theresa May this


evening. You are confident that the Human Rights Act is sufficient to


the task? We will always listen to whatever the security agencies say


that they need. But we are confident that we can provide any new powers


that are truly necessary and proportionate within the human


rights framework and within the rule of law. Clearly something is not


working. You agree that the atmosphere has changed, two terror


attacks in two weeks proceeded by Westminster, it is a different


atmosphere and different climate. People want to know that everything


in the Government's armoury is being used. Perhaps that armoury isn't


right? We are concerned about the armoury, our biggest concern is


about resources. Everything I've heard from your clips this evening


and everything that I've heard from the agencies themselves in recent


weeks suggests that cuts for example in the number of police officers,


cuts to the Borders agency, austerity, it is a potential problem


and we are committed to making that the priority. You have a situation


where you have heard Lord Carlile say tonight that actually control


orders are what we need back. Lord Carlile and I have debated control


orders on your programme over the years and we have disagreed. If


there is a need for any new powers to monitor suspects who are not yet


able to be charged, we are convinced that could be dealt with within the


criminal justice system and not as an extra justice system measure like


control orders. We have said, Jeremy Corbyn has said even this evening


that he will look at the law. But the primary focus that we are making


is resources. If you have an extremist in your midst, you know


for example somebody like Khuram Butt is in your midst but there is


not enough to prosecute him but actually you want to detain and


restrain him in some weight and you don't have the powers to do so just


now, but keeping him off the streets is the main thing to do, you would


look at a new law? We will always keep the law under review. At the


moment we are convinced that with additional weasels is we can deal


with these people within the rule of law. Is Shami Chakrabarti right,


there is no need for any movement on the Human Rights Act? Certainly the


architecture that we have of human rights allows the derogation. There


is no difficulty derogating if you can show it is necessary and


proportionate to do so. The Prime Minister is therefore absolutely


right when she says that within the structures of our easy HR


obligations, we could, if necessary, for example, if we felt it was


vital, detain people without trial. Whether it would be a good thing to


do it or not is another matter, but the powers do exist to allow that to


happen. She is actually not saying anything new tonight at all, that is


not the way she is putting it out first book that is not what I


understood her today, and I was present when she spoke. She was


going to review the legal framework and see what areas it would be


improved, that is compatible with our human rights obligations and


from my point of view it is a common-sense thing to do. It seems


we are in familiar territory in one way. Actually when she was talking


about before about social care, would that all would then not be a


cap, that was the same story just a different form of language. You seem


to be saying the same about this. This is clearly what you are saying


tonight. We need to alter the law in some way to increase the possibility


of fibre restraint or exclusion, we will look at that. Dominic Grieve,


you or a lawyer, you know she was saying something different. I


understood she wanted to review the law in terms of restricting people's


liberty if there was evidence which could not be produced in court but


there was intelligence evidence. Yes, it can be looked at further.


80p, which we have at the moment, could be changed or improved. There


are only seven restrictions at the moment. History has shown that they


and control orders may have a limited use. That is not a reason


why you shouldn't go away and look at them again. That is a sensible


reaction by Government, and not one with which I have any difficulty.


You are saying two days before an election, you have been on this


programme many times arguing it against 90 days, arguing against 42


days, arguing against control orders. You have always been the one


to say that the law as it exists just now is sufficient to the tasks.


You must be crossing your fingers. Not at all, I am always want to


argue against gimmicks, absolutely. And given three does creep in


because people feel that they have got to do something. But in fairness


to the Prime Minister, if you listen to what she had to say this evening,


reviewing how T -- Howell Tpims operate... She was saying


amendments. Amending Tpims is perfectly reasonable, it can be done


within the framework of our human rights obligations without any real


difficulty of the situation warrants it. I don't have a problem with


that. Clearly the detail will have to be looked that, but she is not


wrong to raise such an issue. Two days before an election?


Unfortunately these events have taken place four days before an


election, we have to live with the consequences of that. We can't just


ignore it and say, we will come back to it on Saturday. That is


unreasonable for the opposition by Government. Thank you both very


much. Hello, good evening


from Walsall's New Art Gallery, here in the crucial political


battleground of the West Midlands. The second last day


of the election campaign is over. We'll hear the views


of our own focus group in Walsall, and we'll have a profile


of Jeremy Corbyn, the man who is Well, because this may prove to be


an important signifier of the direction Britain is taking


on Thursday night. That's because one way of describing


the traditional election map of England is that Labour


own the north, the Tories own the south, and the Midlands


is a swing region that holds the balance of power


and decides who runs A caricature, but one


with a grain of truth in it. Now, that old order -


that election map may be challenged on Thursday,


but it is still interesting to look at this campaign


from the perspective of a West Midlands marginal seat,


and I'm sitting in one here. Walsall North is number 23


on the Tory target list. It is one the party needs to win


if Theresa May is to get a substantial majority,


the kind of majority that justifies her decision


to call the election. It is also the kind of seat


she wants to win, because she wants to reach out to the parts of Britain


the Tories have struggled to reach - places like this, with


the characteristic industrial Here in Walsall, they've got a dry


saying about the place. But international competition has


made life more difficult and it is still one of the more


deprived constituencies Today, nearly a fifth


of the constituents receive some That's almost double


the national average. David Winnick is up early


looking for Labour votes. This has long been


natural Labour territory. David Winnick captured


the seat for Labour in 1979. But the old order is under


challenge, and he is now defending Two years ago, he got 39% of


the vote to the Conservatives' 33%. But this seat is one where Ukip's


strong showing last time can shape If just half of those


defect to the Tories, That's the outcome that


Theresa May was hoping So, is that what will


happen on Thursday? Well, we'll come back


to Walsall in a minute. But, the penultimate day


of the campaign is over. Nick Watt, our Political Editor,


has been notching up the miles during the last few weeks,


and is with me now. Almost there, Nick! What is the


feeling, particularly in the Tory camp at the moment? There are some


pretty nervous and some pretty angry ministers. One minister told me,


Theresa May has had the worst imaginable campaign and her stock


has absolutely plummeted. There is furious about U-turn on social care,


and also the less than sort of Sunni approach of this Tory campaign. A


minister told me, this whole campaign has gone sour. They think


they are going to win, but not win as emphatically as they had hoped,


and the blame is being laid squarely at the door of the Prime Minister's


joint chiefs of staff, Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill. We all here in


Walsall, I have been up in the North East looking at another seat that


the Tories would dearly love to win. Here is my report.


At last, our strong and stable Prime Minister has located...


Theresa May briefly took up residence in a sturdy stable to


deliver her main campaign message of the day.


The clear choice for people is, who do they trust to get the best


Who has got the will, who has got the plan


for those Brexit negotiations, because they start only 11 days


after polling day, and they are the basis of everything else.


A big focus on Brexit could only mean the


We were told at the beginning of this campaign that


it would be a presidential tour by Theresa May,


with you only playing a


Now, with 48 hours to go and after a faltering campaign by


Theresa May, you are playing a prominent role.


So is the Prime Minister is so alarmed by the


success of Jeremy Corbyn, the man you described as a mugwump,


I think wholly accurately, by the way!


Is she hoping that the Boris Johnson Heineken effect is going to reach


out to voters in parts of this country where she is struggling?


Nick, I have been engaging with you, with the voters in this country,


But the point is, there is one choice for people on Thursday.


It boils down to a clear and simple choice between a


strong and determined woman in the form of Theresa May,


who in my view has a fantastic plan for Brexit, and


understands we need to take this country forward.


And Jeremy Corbyn, who is at very best weak and


So Boris Johnson travelled to the North East seat of


To deliver an impassioned speech about the dangers


A month ago, Newsnight launched its general election


Corbyn-mania had yet to sweep into one working men's club.


He's stronger, he has come back and he is


So he is coming round, he has two days to go.


So, Danny, I saw you a month ago at the beginning of the campaign. I'm


wondering, one month on, have you changed your views at all? No,


definitely not. It's nice to see you again. It's nice for you to come and


see us for the feedback. But definitely not. Theresa May had high


hopes of capturing this rock-solid Labour seat at the start of the


election campaign. One month on there are some signs that Jeremy


Corbyn's successful campaign is paying dividends. But there are


natural supporters who simply will not support him. Over in the rule


all Tory supporting area of the constituency, there is support for


Theresa May, although her campaign slips have been noticed. What do you


think of Theresa May's campaign? Well, she's basically spoilt it when


she did the U-turn. She was going all right until Ben. Well, I did


like Theresa May very much. But I think she's been very indecisive


over a lot of things. I just don't know. The Prime Minister of the


United Kingdom, Theresa May. The feel of Theresa May's campaign early


in the day gave way to a more energetic rally tonight in the


gritty surroundings of Slough, the final stretch in which our leader's


feat for barely touch the ground. It has been a strange election -


to me, it feels as though the important debates about Brexit


and the overall direction of And now we know they have to finish


by this time tomorrow. And to get a taste of how all this


has played with voters in this marginal seat,


we convened a panel A small focus group of people


who have been Labour or Tory, or undecided


between Labour and Tory. Ipsos Mori selected


the panel for us, and, as this is a Labour seat,


there is a tilt towards Labour in the numbers,


but Tories and undecideds I looked back on the campaign


with the panel, to gauge their views on some of the key moments


and themes. Thank you for coming and let's talk


about the election campaign and which bits made an impression on due


and which have not. And where you think he is. -- made an impression


on you. To start with security and terror which has dominated sadly


much of the campaign. Samantha, has that effect it for you your view of


the political parties, you're thinking about this election? It has


not changed my thoughts on the political parties, it has remained


the same as before. It has made the undecided because I want to feel


safe on the streets, I want my children to be safe and then


obviously my children will have children. As it is now I am


uncertain, I feel we are on site. -- I feel we are on say. We'll bring


the perpetrators of the attacks but is anywhere else you blame, people


you think of lead the country down? -- we will blame. Personally I think


the government has let us down. It seems to be dividing communities. We


are supposed to be multicultural and we are on paper but we are not. All


the communities are separate. If you're not together there will never


be peace. I think security is let us down as well. They knew one of them,


in the London terrorist attack that carried out the attack. They could


have done something earlier and they did not. Has that affected your


thinking about the political parties? I think that it has. I


think Theresa May, I do not think she is doing herself any favours


with the things she has said. She said things previously about the


police that they are bringing back but I do not think that is helping


her at the moment. Thinking back to the Manchester or London attack, is


that anyone who comes to mind you think captured the moment, who spoke


the nation? Who gave the impression of leadership on the issue? I think


Jeremy Corbyn did quite well with what he had to say. I think what I


do -- I think we need more police on the streets. They have been reduced


and local police station has been shut down. If we have an emergency,


we're waiting half an hour, and are for something to be done. One of the


things often said about voters and terror attacks, is when you're


thinking about security they tend perhaps to think in more


conservative, right wing ways. For health that is more left. Both --


but if anyone who has felt more inclined to vote Conservative as a


result of what has happened in this campaign? Heads shaking. How many


would say you feel more inclined to vote for Labour as a result of the


terror attacks? Several of you. I would like to talk about leadership


because that has been quite a big issue in the campaign, both parties


made something of that. Who would like to say what the Tories slogan


was relating to leadership in the earlier part of the campaign. If I


say there was a three word slogan they were using a lot? Strong and


stable. How many of you recognise those words is being used by the


Conservative Party? Did you hear them repeating that a lot because


people used to said they only had three words. They were saying that


often. I never heard anyone say something so often. I'm tired of


seeing Theresa May, she's always there. Strong and stable. OK, I get


it. I think the Jeremy Corbyn one stands out more. For the many and


not the few. How many of you know that phrase, for the many, not the


few? That one was getting a bit battered. How many of you think that


strong and stable is a good way to describe Theresa May? How many of


you do not think strong and stable is a good way of describing Theresa


May? A couple of abstentions. Why were you laughing when I said strong


and stable? Were not strong and stable with Theresa May because of


the policing cuts. I think that is the number-1 issue. We cannot be


strong and stable without police and we are not secure. We need to


prevent these attacks from happening. None of you thought


Theresa May represents and stability? You were not persuaded by


the slogan? I have never seen anyone so weak and feeble in my life. I


didn't think she was quite clever to be asking for this election because


she thought she was in a very strong position to win. But as the time has


gone on I think she could have shot herself in the foot. What has she


shot herself in the foot on? The series of events with the terrorism


things, the policing, the things that she is saying and all that


about dementia and people's homes to pay for their care. I do not think


that helped her. That has overshot the campaign. How many of you have


seen your opinion of Theresa May go up during this election campaign?


None of you. How many of you think your opinion of her has gone down


during the election campaign? What about Jeremy Corbyn, has your


opinion of Jeremy Corbyn gone up during the campaign? You're putting


your hand up tentatively. I would not stay up or down, I am undecided


about him in general. But it has not gone. How many dig your opinion of


him has gone down during the campaign? None of you. I'm going to


weed out some words and I want you to shout simultaneously. Shout the


name Jeremy Corbyn or Theresa May. Which one looks more confident?


Jeremy Corbyn. More prime Mysterio? Jeremy Corbyn. More serious? Theresa


May. More confident? Jeremy Corbyn. More compassionate? Jeremy Corbyn.


So you are entering Jeremy Corbyn to most of those questions. -- you are


answering. I want to ask you a question to finish, the choice you


are facing, you have expressed the view that it comes down to Labour or


Tory. Other parties would beg to differ I know. How many of you think


that the choice you have this time is a good choice? I've -- but it is


a good election with a fair selection of candidates. How many of


you think oh my goodness it is a dilemma, you are picking the least


bad rather than the most good? Just go round on whether it is an


election we are picking a good one or a least bad one? You have to go


with what is important to you. So the policies that Jeremy has and


Theresa May has come at you go with which our most important to you


overall. How do you think you will go? Undecided. I was going to vote


Tory but as Theresa May has gone a long her campaign has kind of weak


and whereas I have seen Jeremy Corbyn get stronger. That has made


me weep a bit. So I am a bit undecided. Mark, to have the last


word! I am sitting on the fence. From what I've heard, I think it is


going more towards the Labour Party. Roy, you were a Labour voter, do you


think that this is an election where it is a choice or a dilemma, is it


about the best or the least bad? I think is a different choice, between


a new weight or an old way. The old way has not been doing so well so


let us try the new way. I think the Labour Party are setting out the


things that are important to most people, the NHS, education,


policing. A better choice than last time when it was David Cameron or Ed


Miliband? Definitely, much better. A really good election with a clear


choice, Jeremy Corbyn all the way and a lot of optimism here and


exciting times it hopefully he gets in. Tory voter lifetime, where are


you now? Still undecided. The last time when it was David Cameron and


Ed Miliband it was a clear choice because Cameron was the stronger


leader. But this time, I am going to wait until Thursday I think. Just


choose the last minute. Quite a few undecideds. You have not got long.


On paper I do not think any of them are standout leaders. Not like


Barack Obama, you think he is a leader. How do you think you will


go? I would rather not say. You see Jeremy Corbyn


getting a relatively warm reception in that group -


is that the prevalent view in places like this,


or was the panel untypical? You never know until


the day, do you? Well, here in Walsall's


New Art Gallery with me are Andrew Mitchell,


who has been the MP for Sutton Coldfield since 2001


and is the former Secretary of State Liam Byrne has been the MP


for Birmingham Hodge Hill since 2004, and was a member


of the Shadow Front Bench Andrew Mitchell, do you agree with


those other senior colleagues, that this has been a terrible Tory


campaign? This is my ninth general election as a Parliamentary


candidate and I have never known any of those elections not experience


quite a lot of turbulence in the Conservative Party and this is no


exception. But over the past month I have been in a number of targeted


and marginal seats across the Midlands. I think it was never as


good for the Conservative Party as at the beginning, I do not think it


is as bad as some media are suggesting it is now. I think on the


ground there is a different battle going on to the battle going on in


the national media. You say you have done nine, can you think of a worse


Conservative campaign than this? I think there have always been


difficulties with campaign. I'm not going to do that. I think they have


always been difficulties. But on the doorstep I think a lot of the media


froth that characterises the national campaign is not bear and I


think people across the Midlands are making up their minds who they want


to deal with Brexit and who they think will run the economy best


after the general election is over. Liam Byrne, what is your critique of


the Tory campaign? I think it has been interesting, Theresa May went


into the election thinking it was a con election. She wanted to make the


pitch to hire me as your chief negotiator but that has not worked


because people already have factored in Brexit and they want to move


beyond it. So the election has been revealed actually as I change


election. And Labour have put some bold offers on the table, around 6%


increase in public spending and that has resonated. People do not want


more of the same. At the beginning it was thought that this could


redraw the map and bring the Tories back into blue-collar areas, destroy


Ukip, replace Labour as a party of aspiration and the working class. In


your opinion is that happening or basically is it retreating to the


traditional two parties? I think is retreating to the traditional


2-party election but that is not inconsistent with some of the points


we made about the collapse of Ukip and so on. But I think the media set


of very low bar for Jeremy Corbyn. He has had a good election campaign,


to be fair. But as he goes blasting up the arterial roads of Britain


lobbing 50-pound notes at every interest group that there is, I


think here in the Midlands on the doorsteps the reaction I'm getting,


people are suspicious of that. They do not think there is a magic cure


and I think it will come down to those two points I made at the


start, Brexit and the economy. In focus group Brexit, they did not


know enough about the different pitches for that to be decisive. But


to talk about vulnerabilities of the quadrant campaign and money.


Starting with money because you the guy who wrote the famous note about


the money that the money running out. Do you think people will buy


the pain of idea that you can raise public spending by five, 10%, and


not notice or find any, that you are paying for?


Is Labour being honest? Look, the costed programme is about ?48.6


billion, 80% of that money would come from Corporation Tax going back


up, the financial transaction tax. The experts said that that will have


costs, it will feed through to prices, wages, shareholders,


pensions. The figures that have been put on the table are the best


available. The key thing is that the spending plans, it is about a 6%


increase in public spending, are matched by the tax plans, which are


seen as fair. Theresa May's problem is that she went into this election


without having a pre-election budget. Her manifesto has unravelled


very quickly because there are no numbers to go with it. The other


vulnerability is that everybody in the Parliamentary party, most of


them, voted that they have no confidence in the guide, including


yourself. We're not talking about ancient history, it's less than a


year ago that you said I have no confidence in the sky. Do you now


have confidence in him? This is not a presidential election. Do you have


confidence in him or not Brazil and I am voting for him, so I do have


confidence in him. We have put together a plan which has united


what is a broad church in the Labour Party. You must have either been


wrong one year ago when you said you had no-confidence in him, or not


have confidence in him now. There is a logic in that. I'm not avoiding


the question. The key thing that has changed from one year ago is that


one plant has been put on the table which has been drawn from all parts


of the Labour Party, the broad church of the Labour movement. It is


a very different proposition. Do you think the Tories underestimated


Jeremy Corbyn at the beginning of this campaign? The media set a low


bar. I have never underestimated Jeremy Corbyn, I have worked with


him in parliament and probably know him better than many parliamentary


colleagues. Liem is existing wished former businessman and he will know


that you cannot -- is a distinguished former businessman.


You cannot get all of this money by just taxing the 5%. On the doorsteps


in the Midlands, people's eyes have narrowed and I believe they will


vote for the Conservative Party on Thursday. Thank you both very much.


You can find a full list of the candidates from both the Walsall


constituencies on the BBC website. You probably know the old saying


that you never get a second chance Well, maybe Jeremy Corbyn has belied


that particular claim. For many people, first impressions


of him were drawn from his apparent reluctance to sing the national


anthem back in 2015 just after becoming Labour leader -


a moment that had Tory But in this campaign,


many people have evidently come His approval ratings


have improved markedly. Which is interesting,


as he has of course been We asked Stephen Bush,


a special correspondent at the New Statesman magazine,


and the journalist who perhaps before anyone else recognised that


Mr Corbyn was going to be Labour leader, to make a film for us


offering us his account Jeremy Corbyn comes from a place


unlike any other Labour leader. He leads a party where his own MPs


have voted against him twice. He's abandoned everything history


tells us Labour must do to win. Yet, the more the country has seen


of him in this campaign, the more his appeal has


seemed to grow. So what have we all missed


about the Corbyn project? By day, he's fighting to change


the Labour Party and campaigning. By evening, he is fighting


to change the Labour It is in effect not just


the end of Blairism, It is the end of an entire moment


in British politics. His appeal is too wide


and too deep to be ignored. Corbyn was born in 1949,


and grew up in the small Shropshire Other Labour leaders


from comfortable upbringings, like Clement Attlee and Tony Blair,


discovered their ideals But Jeremy Corbyn emerged almost


fully formed from his upbringing I am from a working-class part


of London, he is a very And what struck me, he'd


had quite a privileged He didn't have things


of the inner-city. But that is what he wanted


for everyone else. His parents, David and Naomi,


had met while campaigning for the Republicans


during the Spanish Civil War. David was an official in the local


Labour Party, and Corbyn joined The young Jeremy was often


tasked with connecting But it was at home where his


politics were shaped. There was an atmosphere both


in my house and indeed in Jeremy's house of the parents


and the youngsters talking together quite seriously about politics


and being taken seriously, Their first campaign


was the 1964 election, when Harold Wilson ended 13


years of Conservative rule. We did do things together,


fundraising, it was in a marginal constituency and it was worth


getting out on the streets for. And that's what every party wants


to know from its canvassers. It wants to pinpoint its supporters


and make sure that it can get everyone to the polls


on October 15th. He left his traditional school


with only two E grades at A-level, In an early example of activism,


he had refused to join the school's Conscientious objectors like Corbyn


were instead allowed to mow We had a little room


where we could disappear when we had done all the jobs


and make ourselves a cup of tea. Because it was a time of great


political discussion. But Vietnam, combined


with Wilson's failure to really transform Britain,


meant many on the left By the time Corbyn moved


to London in the 1970s, To fix Labour, its members needed


to take over the party. To fight the leadership


at every level. On everything from foreign policy


to management of policing. And the Home Secretary had to reply


to attacks on the police, like this If this government can find time


and money, apparently, to appease the police,


how is it they have not found the time to do anything to bring


about democratic control You have to remember that


on the left, at end of the 1970s, our most important campaign


was the campaign for And the point about the campaign


for Labour Party democracy was that it placed the most value


on members and members That is why today I think


Jeremy thinks, correctly, that his legitimacy comes


from the fact that so many people If you want to understand


Jeremy Corbyn's professional life, you have to understand this


particular patch of From Haringey to Hornsey


to Islington, he's always been more of a movement man


than a professional politician. As a union organiser in Haringey,


then a councillor in Hornsey, and finally in 1983,


a safe seat in Islington North, his career covers the entirety


of the Labour movement. His guiding principle


in all these roles - Jeremy sees himself first


and foremost accountable to the mass And much less so to


the Parliamentary Labour Party. And he sees them as having been over


the last two years, awkward, difficult, trying to undermine him,


trying to obstruct what he has You have just seen the new Labour


Party of Neil Kinnock. Glossy brochures, glossy


words, glossy images. It all looks very comfortable


and cosy, doesn't it? But when you look behind all


the rosy covers, what do you find? Jeremy Corbyn, Labour candidate


for Islington North. Defeat of the Tory government


will be brought about by a series of disputes of which Parliament


is only a part. The quote the Tories picked


out was very important. Corbyn does see Westminster as only


one front in a much bigger fight These positions were


a gift to the Tories. This is Valerie Furness,


Labour candidate for Nuneaton. A Labour government has got to take


on the people who obstruct it, Somebody said, oh, Val,


you're on the television. And that is when I


first saw the poster. You know, I was on a


poster with my friends. Even in the febrile 1980s,


Corbyn and his allies They believed in stronger trade


unions, significant redistribution, and that power was won not just


in Westminster, but on the streets. Their associations too


offended Middle England. Corbyn embraced Martin McGuinness


when he was still a pariah, and he campaigned for those


convicted wrongly of pub bombings. Critics saw him as an


advocate for the IRA. It didn't work in 1987,


those people got elected. It didn't work, the Guildford four


were exonerated along And there was a peace


agreement in Ireland. Mrs Thatcher is now edging towards


an overall majority of 100... The problem for Corbyn


was, in the late 1980s, the country and the Labour Party


thought he was wrong. And it is going to be


a record-breaking night. Three victories running


for the Prime Minister... The Parliamentary Labour Party


concluded, for Labour to ever win again, it had


to bury its Corbynite elements. In 1996, Tony Blair joked


about the very idea of a Corbyn leadership, saying you really don't


have to worry about Jeremy Corbyn And in the resulting battle


for the party's soul, We have been elected as New Labour


and we will govern as New Labour. Jeremy Corbyn has always


wanted one thing, which is And if you think of it in terms


of who your opponents and who your enemies are,


for Jeremy Corbyn Theresa His political enemies


are in the Labour Party. People like me, people


like Tony Blair, and it is Blairism. Just like after Harold Wilson,


Corbynism was born out of disillusionment with


the Labour government. After the party's second defeat


in 2015, changes to the party's rules for electing its leader,


intended to revive the party's I thought he had no chance


of winning in May 2015. But convinced myself


and others that if he fought a good populist campaign,


he could get a decent And use it to start building


what he has always wanted, which is an extra-parliamentary mass


movement of progressive people. Under Corbyn, Labour


membership has surged. And the Corbynites believe that


a large base will keep the party on the left,


preventing the compromises A Labour Party which was out


of power but purged New Labour members and New Labour


influence is the ambition Power is a by-product,


because if you go to the root of what is supporters always talk


about, it is always framed in terms Moving the terms on which


we consider things in. All radical parties aim to change


the language of politics. Clement Attlee in 1945,


Margaret Thatcher in 1979. The Corbyn project aims


to shift the debate, too. And this partly explains


their defensiveness with the press. If you want to try and get good


coverage, you want to try and get a page lead in the Daily Mail,


page lead in The Sun, and work with the press,


first of all you genuinely have to compromise on your policies


and your politics. And, secondly, come a general


election, as they did to Ed Miliband, they just throw


the kitchen sink at you. So that compromise isn't


worth it in the long one. Let's be clear that it's been


very hard for him to get over a lot of the media,


all through the time Now it's a general election,


and there has got to be some sort of fairness in the media,


even from the BBC. he is getting it over,


he is getting it over. Any rise in support may be


because Corbyn has compromised. Where once he railed


against appeasing the police, he is now a loud defender


of the Met. He abandoned decades


of Euroscepticism to hold onto the leadership,


and then switched back once Both those choices


will form key planks To remain in charge,


no matter the result on Thursday. A lot depends on June the 8th,


but I think if he does better than Ed Miliband in terms


of the vote share, then he would be well within his rights


to stay on as leader. Having had only two years to try


and change the Labour Party. Labour's performance in recent polls


suggests that aim might be achieved. to restructure Labour so party


members pull the strings, for policy to be made


by the grassroots, For Labour to remain


firmly on the left. That would all but guarantee


Corbynism endures, through this Matthew Parris will be profiling


Theresa May in tomorrow's programme. Two days to the vote, and this


election has not been leading news bulletins today, as other grave


matters have been concerned with. One day to go. Do they think there


is much that can happen in the last day? This campaign will go American


tomorrow, as the two candidates rack up a lot of miles as they travel


across Great Britain. The interesting thing about this


campaign is that it is going to test the idea that election campaigns to


not have much of an impact in the result. In the Labour Party they are


upbeat about the campaign but cautious about the result. They have


to get out young voters, as we were saying earlier. The Tory campaign,


senior figures are nervous and not happy about that campaign. Whatever


the result, come Friday morning, I think the British political


landscape will look different. Thanks, Nick.


Thank you to the art museum for hosting us. I will be in Bolton


tomorrow for the day before the vote. We will be in the place where


Theresa May picked off her campaign. Another of our election guides. What


is the fundamental choice you are making? See you tomorrow. Good


night. Elections are sometimes a fight


between tribes. Workers versus capitalists, unions versus


nationalists, taxpayers versus welcome their recipients. Drivers


versus cyclists. -- welfare recipients. Elections are often a


fight between who is on top and who gets more of the pie. Not this one,


though. Both the Conservatives and Labour fought to be on the same


side, fighting for the same people. They are not fighting for those at


the bottom. Neither side is making generous promises on welfare.


Certainly they are not fighting for those at the top. This is a bad


election for fat cats. Nobody is even paying lip service to trickle


down economics these days. Everybody is fighting for the same ordinary


working families. It is the lower middle that is moving up the


political charts. With the main parties agreeing wombat, the choice


comes down to this. Labour say the Tories don't mean it, they revert to


type. A Tory leopard can't change its spots. The Tories say Labour


cannot deliver, they will screw up. The Conservatives do socialism


better than Labour ever can. That's this election - Paul Lawrie


insincerity versus Labour incompetence, which is the greater


risk? -- Tory insincerity. If you don't like ordinary working


families, you'd best sit this one out.


In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.

Mark Urban has the latest on the investigation into the London Bridge attackers, Evan Davis is in Walsall for the last days of election campaigning, and Stephen Bush has been on the trail of Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn.

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