12/06/2017 Newsnight


12/06/2017

With Evan Davis. What a hung parliament will mean for Brexit, and will Macron win a majority in the French Parliament that May can now only dream of?


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Transcript


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There was some careful manoeuvring in Downing Street today,

:00:07.:00:09.

Maybe you can stay, but something'll have to change.

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And we're not just talking about the cats.

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Yes - after the Tories fall to earth, everything is up in the air.

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What of their manifesto and of their Brexit will remain -

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and what will leave, as hung parliament politics bites?

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Some MPs hoping for a benign Brexit are pinning their hopes

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on an unlikely alliance at Westminster.

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-- others of course say that the referendum was definitive.

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In no way does this election mean an opportunity to somehow go behind

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that referendum result, and somehow turn the tables

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Is it soft or hard, or something in between?

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We'll hear from a prominent Brexiteer and Remainer.

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France's President Macron has a new party, and it seems to be

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dominating French politics - at the expense of the socialists.

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What are the lessons for us, and the implications for Europe?

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And Katie Razzall has gone back to the very start

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of Theresa May's campaign, to find out just what went

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Do you feel that you were very instrumental in what's

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I feel like we've caused it, because we've gone from having such

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a small turnout amongst 18-24-year-olds to

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For better or worse, hung parliaments offer an excuse

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to parties to jettison the difficult promises made in their manifesto.

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We saw that in the Tory-Lib Dem coalition of 2010.

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We're seeing the Tories prune away bits of their manifesto now,

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But the really big question hanging over Westminster is whether our hung

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parliament means the Tories will change their much

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It was set out in a speech in January, in a White Paper

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in February, and in a letter to the EU in March -

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The vision was not much debated in the election,

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but it's hard to say it got an uproarious thumbs

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And most MPs want a more flexible Brexit, including possibly the DUP.

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Our political editor Nick Watt is here.

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An important political Bay, Nick, as everyone gets over the result. Take

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us through the events of the day. She convened at political Cabinet

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today ahead of a meeting of the govern -- Government Cabinet

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tomorrow. Keeping with the same spirit of those Cabinet

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appointments, mainly confirming the same people in the same places, and

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when there is a vacancy achieving a balance between Bremainers and

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Leavers. Then the 1922 committee of MPs, as she recovered some, but by

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no means all, for a authority by apology for the election setback,

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saying "I got us into this mess, I will get us out of it." I have to

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say that went down well. She seems to have had a good day, stabilise

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things took a bit. To what extent is the support she is getting just

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because everybody is very tired and we want to get on with things? And

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how really durable is it, do you think? At the risk of sounding like

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an old veteran, I have to say I can spot a fake support by politicians,

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and I was outside the committee meeting today when the Prime

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Minister came out then the MPs came out, and MPs genuinely thought she

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had done a good job by showing contrition and then pledging to

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govern in a more open way. Interestingly, one minister told me

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he thought the Prime Minister had been impressive and funny, but then

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this minister said, "Why didn't we see that side of her during the

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election? " so she has bought herself time to start the Brexit

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negotiations and possibly to see them through, but every Tory I spoke

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to will not budge on this fundamental point. Theresa May

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cannot lead the Conservative Party into the next general election. But

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the big question really, as you were saying, where does this all leave

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Brexit? This is what I found out today...

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A few short weeks ago, are hard Brexit seemed to be on the cards.

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Now the voters have had their say, and, yes, a soft Brexit is coming

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into view. Under Theresa May's original Brexit plan there would be

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no halfway house, the UK would abandon membership of the Single

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Market and most of the customs union. If Brussels tables

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unreasonable demands, the UK would also be prepared to walk away

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without a deal. Downing Street insists there is no change to its

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plan. But the Prime Minister Renaud has to take account of the new

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factors. A contingent of 13 Scottish MPs, whose leader Ruth Davidson is

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calling for an open Brexit, the Tories' DUP partners who want a

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frictionless border in Ireland, and a rejuvenated Labour Party who is

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now talking about remaining in a reformed single market and Customs

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union. Ruth Davidson told the Prime Minister and the Government must

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push for what she called an open Brexit. I'm suggesting the

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Conservative Party works with those both within the House of Commons and

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indeed with people without, to ensure that as we leave the EU we

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have a Brexit that works with the economy and put that first, and I

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think there was a real sense around the Cabinet table today that, as you

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would expect, from centre-right politicians, that is the primacy we

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are looking for. And the leader of the Scottish Tories also believes

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the party should be reaching out across the spectrum on Brexit.

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Labour agrees, and now appears able to water down no suggestion the UK

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would be able to leave the Single Market. We want something that works

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for Britain, for our businesses and communities. That means, as we have

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said, the benefits of the Single Market and the customs union. That

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is low or no tariffs, no customs barriers, and alignment of

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regulations. How that is achieved as part of this negotiation but the

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criticism of the Government is that it took all those options of Mike

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the table. I'm reformed membership of the Single Market without any

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change at all is not compatible with leaving EU -- I'm

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this Arlene Foster, leader of the DUP, is due to meet the Prime

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Minister tomorrow, to buy to make an arrangement to sustain the Tories in

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office. A number of Cabinet ministers are reportedly saying in

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private that the DUP, which is to the right on social issues, may

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provide them with cover to push for a softer Brexit. This Tory told me

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some ministers who have been wary of talking out on Brexit believe the

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DUP will give them a chance to slip through something more palatable to

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them. The DUP takes a pragmatic approach, in terms of its dealings

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with the Irish Republic, so they want unfettered trade, they don't

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want tariffs on goods across the border, and they don't want a hard

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border. The DUP position is helpful to the Conservatives in terms of

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managing Brexit. I think previously what the position was that the

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reddish Government would work with Irish government in a soft Brexit --

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the British Government would work with the Irish government on a soft

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Brexit, but now they have the DUP on board in terms of managing a softer

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Brexit. DUP sources told Newsnight they have no quibble with the Prime

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Minister's original Brexit plan, and leading Tory Brexit figures are

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confident their vision is safe. We have 85% of the electorate voting

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for Brexit supporting parties and for me that vote of confidence in

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the direction of travel Theresa May is taking us in when it comes to

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honour that. In no way does this election mean an opportunity to

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somehow go behind that referendum result and somehow turn the tables

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on the British people, because that would be completely wrong. Britain's

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political landscape has been transformed by the surprise result

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of the snap general election. Pro-Europeans are hoping a hard

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Brexit will be the first victim, but Leave campaigners believe they still

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retain trump cards. Nick Watt. Well, there is a live and lively

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debate going on inside the Tory Parliamentary Party,

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but it's not one that they're that But let's discuss now with Tory MEP

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Daniel Hannan and Neil Carmichael, who was a Tory MP and a leading

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proponent of a softer Brexit I will start if I made with Daniel

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Hannan. I just want to examine Daniel Hannan's views at the moment.

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Mr Hannan, a lot of people looking for compromises and a slightly

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softer Brexit. I just want to ask, would it be acceptable to you if

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that's part of this we left the Single Market but stayed in the

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customs union so they did not need to be a border between the north and

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south of Ireland, car companies could trade back and forwards across

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the border? I think that would be a very bizarre way of interpreting and

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open Brexit. Open Brexit by all means means maximising our trade

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links with the rest of the EU, but it also means being able to trade

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with the rest of the world. Now, even the EFTA countries, Norway and

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Switzerland and so on, they have partial membership of the Single

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Market, but even they are outside the customs union, and so they are

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able to sign free arrangements with China, Japan, and the growing

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economies, and if we are looking to long term that is where we need to

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be. A lot of people have ruled out being in the Single Market. The

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second best for those people as being in the customs union. Is that

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something you could swallow... I can see you don't think it is a good

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idea and would rather it wasn't, but could you swallow it as an idea? To

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be honest I think some of those people are just grabbing the

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totemically at things. I've never really got this idea that the whole

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country is divided down the middle. Leavers and Bremainers our

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compatriots who want the best. I think we agree whether we voted left

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remain, we want military arrangements, commercial

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arrangements, we want that with our allies, we want to keep those bits

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of the current deal working, and that could include EU programmes,

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and I don't think anyone is against that in principle, but we want to do

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it on the basis of getting the best possible deal for us, and frankly

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that means... Getting the best possible deal, yes, everyone agrees

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with that. So you would not buy the customs union. Is there any

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flexibility in your mind about the jurisdiction of the European Court

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of justice, the ECJ? It may be helpful in the negotiation to say

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that ECJ, this European Court, can govern our aviation agreements, or

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for example could govern the nuclear materials? Is that something you

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could tolerate or accept at all? The EU doesn't do that with any other

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non-EU member state. Could you tolerate it, could you... Is that

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Kaymer? Why would we go in wanting a worse deal than Switzerland, Norway,

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Serbia, every other European country. That would be a bizarre

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position the way you can get around that issue and make it work to the

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advantage of both sides, is to do what the Swiss have done. To say,

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you'll have your court, will have hours. Where there is a plain

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interest in the same policy are harmonised outcome, we will simply

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do that through a bilateral treaty, so we will not be inviting foreign

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jurisdiction but the outcome will be the same. The Swiss have replicated

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85-90% of the contents of the Single Market, including the real big one,

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the discrimination on goods or services on threads of origin, but

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they do that by bilateral treaties and domestic legislation. You are

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veering towards the Swiss option but by and large are not sounding very

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compromising. Do you think Theresa May, with no parliamentary majority,

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should for example reach out to the other political parties, reach out

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to Labour and even the Liberal Democrats and say, look, let's see

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if we can foster a Brexit that's its 85% of the voters of this country,

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because we got 85% of the voters in this election? Do you think she

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could do that or she should only do that if we all agree to do it on her

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terms? No, I do think we should be reaching out. I have said ever since

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the vote, it was a 48-52 vote, not a mandate for severing all your links.

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That is a mandate for a phased gradual repatriation of power. We

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will end up with a deal that is almost by definition... It will go

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too far for some people and not far enough for others, but we should aim

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for a deal all sides can at least live with and I think that will mean

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keeping a lot of the current links we have with the EU were those

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working, but what people have been calling the Brexit option, the EFTA

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tape option, even that leaves us with our farms, fisheries, defence

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policy, and I think we can do better than that, but even that is clearly

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becoming sovereign and having our own jurisdiction. Nobody is

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seriously suggesting we should have ECJ ruling is still telling us what

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to do when we have left. Thank you for that. Neil Carmichael, let me

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talk to you. What is your favourite option at this point? How would you

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like Theresa May's Brexit to change? First of all we voted to leave the

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European Union, so what I am about to say does not question that, but I

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think we need to be more realistic in the way in which we go forward,

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and going towards it softer Brexit is clearly an object of mine and of

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many, because we need proper trade relationships and we need to have

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those... Do you accept free movement of people has two go? Many have said

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that as the starting assumption for all of this, do you buy that?

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If you take the university sector, that wouldn't be helpful for

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existing students or members of staff from the EU in our country.

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That is a sort of thing we have to think about. Free movement is a bit

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like pregnancy, you have it or you don't, do you believe in free

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movement or acts that has to go? I accept the country has voted against

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free movement. So the Norway option is out because the Norway option has

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free movement? It has free movement but I don't think we need to rule

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out the Norway option just because of that reason. I think there are

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other things... Are you hoping the EU will offer us some other

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concession on free movement that allows us something close to the

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Norway option? Yes, I think that's the direction we should be going in.

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I hear from business increasingly that is the preferred option. The

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only thing they've ever said is if you wannabe in the single market,

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you have to have free movement. People have been saying in the last

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few days, maybe they'll give us an emergency brake and the Norway

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option. You would love that? I would, but your clip talking about

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the DUP raised the issue about the border and how the attitude of the

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DUP might be different with the Brexiteers. Do you think, if you'd

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been in Parliament, and there are a few like you in the Conservative

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Party, and some who are not as extreme as you. I'm not normally

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described as extreme! Enthusiastic. Would you use parliamentary muscle,

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because basically you'd always have a balance of power, would you use

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parliamentary muscle to humiliate your own government to soften

:16:39.:16:43.

Brexit? I think what we should be doing is reaching out to other

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political parties and other stakeholders, because we have to

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understand that this is not just an objective of hard Brexiteers. This

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is a wider question and it needs to be dealt with in a wider way. I

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understand that, but would you vote against, you know, important motions

:17:00.:17:05.

of your government to soften the Brexit? You voted for Article 50. I

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did. There will be lots of legislation, rip your bills and

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suchlike, would you vote, use your parliamentary muscle and you'd have

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more if you were in Westminster because there is a very small

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majority. I think that leverage that is now available to colleagues of

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mine and DUP and so on is much higher than before. So yes, there is

:17:30.:17:35.

potential here, but we're not talking about voting against the

:17:36.:17:39.

government essentially. What we are trying to do here is have a serious

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discussion about moving the agenda away from purely a hard Brexit

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towards something more reasonable. Last one, you lost your seat on

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Thursday. I did. It was a seat that was considered Remainer. Do you

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think Theresa May's Brexit lost youth vote? I think I lost the vote

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for a number of reasons, one of them was the manifesto on one of them is

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holding the general election at all on one of them indeed was Brexit. I

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think the public generally were looking at the situation and

:18:14.:18:20.

painting us as basically obsessed with Brexit and a hard Brexit. A lot

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of people in my constituency certainly didn't want that. They

:18:25.:18:27.

were not willing to attach their vote to my party and therefore to

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give it to me. I think that was a real difficulty during the general

:18:35.:18:37.

election, for a lot of my colleagues. Neil Carmichael and

:18:38.:18:40.

Daniel Hannan, thank you very much indeed.

:18:41.:18:43.

So, there was another election this week, in France.

:18:44.:18:45.

With Emmanuel Macron now comfortably ensconced as president there,

:18:46.:18:47.

his new political party is fighting elections for the National

:18:48.:18:50.

Assembly, and in the first round, they did well.

:18:51.:18:53.

It's evidence by the way that traction matters in politics -

:18:54.:18:56.

Macron's success in one election seems to have bolstered his

:18:57.:18:58.

In fact, his La Republique en Marche party is set to get three-quarters

:18:59.:19:06.

of the seats in the assembly - the kind of majority it once looked

:19:07.:19:10.

It's been an extraordinary year in France, for reasons very

:19:11.:19:13.

different to those preoccupying us here.

:19:14.:19:16.

He only became President last month - the youngest leader in the G7.

:19:17.:19:21.

His party didn't exist 18 months ago.

:19:22.:19:25.

But here's the astonishing map of the leaders in each area

:19:26.:19:30.

in yesterday's election - Macron's party is in orange.

:19:31.:19:33.

And in blue, Macron's nemesis, the Front National.

:19:34.:19:36.

It had the reverse experience, finding that failure

:19:37.:19:39.

begets more failure - 13% of the vote yesterday.

:19:40.:19:43.

And most striking, the Socialist Party -

:19:44.:19:45.

In Macron's favour is a perception he's been doing quite well.

:19:46.:19:54.

He's had the firmest grip on how to deal with Donald Trump.

:19:55.:19:57.

He's also the man who's spoken gay rights to Putin in public.

:19:58.:20:03.

For now, Macron is the man with momentum, and he's using it

:20:04.:20:06.

to try and rebuild the French alliance with Germany; the one that

:20:07.:20:09.

allowed France to dominate the EU for all those years,

:20:10.:20:11.

Now, let's not exaggerate - Macron's liberal globalism

:20:12.:20:21.

is not to everyone's taste in France at all.

:20:22.:20:25.

And this is just the first round of two.

:20:26.:20:29.

But what does Macron's dominance of French politics

:20:30.:20:30.

tell us about Brexit, and the UK?

:20:31.:20:33.

I'm joined by Gideon Rachman of the Financial Times and Pauline Bock

:20:34.:20:36.

Pauline, why is the guy doing so well do you think? Well, he has done

:20:37.:20:49.

a very good campaign, and to be fair it's not like he's done so well

:20:50.:20:53.

rather than the others have done quite terribly. He defeated Marine

:20:54.:20:57.

le Pen, was seen as his biggest opponent during the campaign. This

:20:58.:21:02.

socialists are in total disarray, they were the ones in government

:21:03.:21:06.

with Francois Hollande. The won a majority in the Parliament as well,

:21:07.:21:12.

in 2012, and yesterday they lost, they won only 7% of the vote. They

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will lose 200 seats, the sort of thing that you think in a

:21:20.:21:23.

parliamentary election can't happen. It can apparently, and it does. The

:21:24.:21:27.

others are not doing so well either, on the left as well. Is that because

:21:28.:21:34.

the left are split between men and shone on the other side. It probably

:21:35.:21:43.

is. Mellon shone was the hard left handed and they never reached an

:21:44.:21:46.

accord, they tried several times but it didn't work. If you add up both

:21:47.:21:53.

their percentages you could have... Could have had one in the second

:21:54.:21:59.

round. Could have. The Financial Times likes Macron, did you regret

:22:00.:22:04.

we don't have one here? It was pretty remarkable for the whole

:22:05.:22:07.

British self-image. We've seen France as in terrible political

:22:08.:22:11.

disarray and Britain pretty solid and centrist for a number of years

:22:12.:22:15.

and now it has flipped. They have a kind of Blairite as their president,

:22:16.:22:21.

sweeping all before him, as Blair did in 2007, and our politics is

:22:22.:22:25.

spinning off to the far left and Brexit right. Let's talk about

:22:26.:22:33.

Europe. The Macron vision is terribly pro-European. One wonders

:22:34.:22:37.

if the French will stomach is integration, his view of the world.

:22:38.:22:42.

Sure, there's a long history of French scepticism as well. Macron on

:22:43.:22:47.

the night he was elected marched out onto the side to the European

:22:48.:22:51.

anthem, not the French anthem. He is an integration West and I think he

:22:52.:22:58.

feels he has the momentum behind him now. Unfortunately for Britain it is

:22:59.:23:01.

quite important for him to demonstrate that leaving the EU,

:23:02.:23:05.

which is what Marine le Pen seem to be flirting with, is a really bad

:23:06.:23:10.

idea. So there's no way I think he's going to make it easy for Britain.

:23:11.:23:13.

You are talking earlier about maybe we could move toward a soft exit. I

:23:14.:23:18.

think Theresa May would love him to make a gesture tomorrow when they

:23:19.:23:23.

meet, but I don't think he will give him anything. It's important for

:23:24.:23:27.

domestic political purposes and for his vision of Europe that Brexit

:23:28.:23:32.

fails. We always used to think of the French and German alliance as

:23:33.:23:35.

the motor of the European Union, before we had the ten Eastern

:23:36.:23:37.

European countries coming in and shifting the whole gravity away from

:23:38.:23:44.

the rest. Do you think you can sell? Do you think he can rebuild it and

:23:45.:23:49.

sell it to the French people? Yes, I think he can, I think he's already

:23:50.:23:55.

doing that. As you said, he marched out to the European anthem. Did they

:23:56.:24:00.

like that? They did, they make fun of it because that's what they do in

:24:01.:24:06.

France but I think their date -- they did. There has been some

:24:07.:24:09.

scepticism in France, but we have the euro, we have the Borders. I

:24:10.:24:16.

come from the country of three borders, Luxembourg, France and

:24:17.:24:20.

Germany, so it doesn't work the same way, it's not just Britain on its

:24:21.:24:24.

island. Because of that he can work with that and he's already doing

:24:25.:24:28.

that. During his campaign he met with Angela Merkel in Berlin. The

:24:29.:24:32.

person from his team who made this meeting possible is now Minister of

:24:33.:24:41.

defence. She is fluent in German. His Prime Minister is also fluent in

:24:42.:24:45.

German. His death will be sending messages to Germany. -- he's

:24:46.:24:50.

definitely sending messages to Germany. Bad for Brexit. Why? One of

:24:51.:24:57.

the arguments going round was Macron's has won, the Front National

:24:58.:25:00.

has been defeated, they don't have to worry about populism on the

:25:01.:25:05.

continent any more, so they don't have to punish Britain for leaving

:25:06.:25:09.

the EU, they can be more relaxed. You are arguing the opposite? I

:25:10.:25:13.

think it Macron takes a long-term view you cannot assume all those

:25:14.:25:17.

Eurosceptic forces are dead for ever. He has to prove Brexit is a

:25:18.:25:21.

bad idea. Equally, if he wants to push for a more integration with

:25:22.:25:26.

Stewart, Britain has been a brake on that, it's been a bore. The Brits

:25:27.:25:30.

being out makes it much easier to go to Berlin and say, let's get that

:25:31.:25:35.

Franco German partnership working together again and go for it. I

:25:36.:25:38.

think there are questions about whether in the long run the Germans

:25:39.:25:42.

really will make the moves Macron wants, decree on the transferred

:25:43.:25:45.

union, transferring money around the EU. I think they are still pretty

:25:46.:25:48.

hesitant about that. But it is probably his best chance, now, to

:25:49.:25:54.

get it done. We will leave it there. Thank you both very much.

:25:55.:25:57.

Four theories as to why the Tories slipped back last Thursday.

:25:58.:26:00.

One, youthquake - Corbyn engaged the young.

:26:01.:26:03.

Two, Remainer revenge - pro-EU voters turned away

:26:04.:26:06.

Three, the populist uprising continues -

:26:07.:26:10.

disgruntled voters saw Corbyn as the change

:26:11.:26:12.

candidate this time, and turned to him.

:26:13.:26:16.

And four, Wooden Theresa - the Prime Minister failed

:26:17.:26:19.

to come across as human, and voters tend to prefer humans

:26:20.:26:21.

You'll have your own theories, but Katie Razzall has been

:26:22.:26:26.

to Bolton to fund out more, a town where the Tories once

:26:27.:26:29.

A strong and stable leadership, a strong and stable government.

:26:30.:26:37.

The strong and stable leadership this country needs.

:26:38.:26:42.

That mantra had its first outing in the church where Theresa May

:26:43.:26:48.

It was a clear statement that she would take her fight

:26:49.:26:54.

deep into Labour seats, deep into enemy territory.

:26:55.:26:58.

That was seven long weeks ago, and back then the expectation

:26:59.:27:01.

was they'd win big, taking seats off Labour like this one.

:27:02.:27:05.

But on Thursday, that just didn't happen -

:27:06.:27:07.

It's marathon day in Bolton North East.

:27:08.:27:15.

This was just one of the Labour seats that failed to turn

:27:16.:27:17.

blue in the landslide that never happened.

:27:18.:27:21.

None of the forecasts were as bleak as this.

:27:22.:27:24.

It was hard to find Bolton voters who'd been impressed.

:27:25.:27:28.

It was a disaster, from start to finish.

:27:29.:27:31.

From starting off in Bolton, and in Bolton North East a Labour

:27:32.:27:39.

I think it summed up, that's kind of the perfect

:27:40.:27:43.

metaphor for her campaign, it was completely misguided,

:27:44.:27:44.

it was completely based on some sort of wild fantasy she had in her head.

:27:45.:27:48.

Senior Tories in Bolton told us the fiasco over social care really

:27:49.:27:51.

hurt their campaign, but for these runners getting

:27:52.:27:53.

ready out of the rain, there were other factors

:27:54.:27:55.

I was going to do Conservative, like I have done before,

:27:56.:27:59.

but then after sitting down with my children and they looked

:28:00.:28:02.

online and they did a poll and they did some other things,

:28:03.:28:04.

they both decided that they both wanted to do Labour and I thought,

:28:05.:28:08.

well, it's the children's future now, so I'll put my vote for them.

:28:09.:28:14.

One of the stories of the campaign was the youth vote,

:28:15.:28:17.

We don't know how many influenced their parents,

:28:18.:28:21.

but we do know here they voted in high numbers.

:28:22.:28:25.

Do you feel that you were very instrumental in what

:28:26.:28:27.

I feel like we've caused it, because we've gone from having such

:28:28.:28:33.

a small turnout amongst 18-24-year-olds to

:28:34.:28:35.

Emily, Charlie, Dylan and Jude are 18 and at Turton high school.

:28:36.:28:40.

All of them voted Labour and encouraged others to do the same.

:28:41.:28:45.

I feel like a lot of posts and stuff made on Facebook,

:28:46.:28:53.

a lot of them more quite comedic, which I feel like it kind

:28:54.:28:56.

of resonated with the youth, it put it on a personal level,

:28:57.:28:59.

I think we just wanted to show the rest of the country that we do

:29:00.:29:04.

We are interested, we're not just going to sit back and let you,

:29:05.:29:09.

who have had your years to do what you like the country, we're not

:29:10.:29:12.

Because they don't think that young people are going to turn out

:29:13.:29:16.

and vote, and I think by encouraging people to go and cast a vote,

:29:17.:29:20.

I think you're challenging that and showing people that young people

:29:21.:29:22.

aren't just this sort of this apathetic, silent body that

:29:23.:29:25.

There was this kind of, oh they'll never turn out,

:29:26.:29:29.

there's no point even appealing to them, because

:29:30.:29:31.

And this shows that we do, if you actually offer us something

:29:32.:29:35.

that, if you actually offer us a good deal.

:29:36.:29:48.

This is Breightmet in Bolton North East.

:29:49.:29:50.

The Conservatives expected Ukip voters in places

:29:51.:29:52.

like this to move to them, but instead Tory councillor

:29:53.:29:54.

John Walsh saw a late surge of young Labour voters

:29:55.:29:56.

Their own Ukip surge never materialised.

:29:57.:30:01.

Many of those who voted Ukip were the salt of the earth,

:30:02.:30:04.

working-class, hard-working Bolton families.

:30:05.:30:04.

They were not natural Conservatives, they were in large numbers of Labour

:30:05.:30:07.

supporters who heard an attractive message from Jeremy Corbyn.

:30:08.:30:16.

So Corbyn outplayed the Conservatives?

:30:17.:30:22.

In that sense, yes, his campaign outplayed them.

:30:23.:30:24.

Is this the worst Conservative campaign you've seen?

:30:25.:30:27.

I've got to say it probably was, and it probably

:30:28.:30:30.

was because it was too long, because it went off into many

:30:31.:30:33.

different directions and we didn't have a focus throughout the campaign

:30:34.:30:35.

It's gin fizz night at the Last Drop inn.

:30:36.:30:39.

As the gin and champagne flowed, an explanation perhaps of why

:30:40.:30:42.

the Tory wooing of Ukip voters didn't pay off from

:30:43.:30:44.

I voted for him last time, and I voted for him in Brexit.

:30:45.:30:50.

Because he's not available, I went back to Labour.

:30:51.:30:56.

Because the Conservatives thought people like you might

:30:57.:30:58.

Amongst voters here, Tory and non, nobody had a good word to say

:30:59.:31:11.

All she had to do in this election, based on the lead that she had,

:31:12.:31:21.

was just not be completely rubbish, and that's what she was.

:31:22.:31:24.

No, but I think what they'll do is they'll probably form

:31:25.:31:29.

a coalition if they can, and in 3-4 months, she'll be gone.

:31:30.:31:37.

The Government misjudged the mood music during this campaign.

:31:38.:31:39.

Two months ago they hoped a landslide would deliver them this

:31:40.:31:42.

That strategy cost the Prime Minister dear.

:31:43.:31:45.

Voters in Bolton, at least, now see turmoil and confusion,

:31:46.:31:47.

Well, one of the central explanations for Labour's strong

:31:48.:31:59.

performance last week has been the way in which Labour

:32:00.:32:01.

and Mr Corbyn engaged younger voters and persuaded them to turn out

:32:02.:32:04.

We've got three people who fit that description to delve deeper into why

:32:05.:32:13.

this happened and whether it is now a permanent feature of our politics.

:32:14.:32:20.

Abi Wilkinson is the professional commentator here, she

:32:21.:32:22.

And Thorrun Govind, who is 24 and from Bolton,

:32:23.:32:34.

, why did you vote? Europe Tory voter in the past? -- Thorrun, why

:32:35.:32:49.

did you vote? Every day in my line of work I am seeing vulnerable

:32:50.:32:54.

patients... You're a pharmacist by profession? Yes, we're helping

:32:55.:32:58.

patients but the Government is not helping them and this was a real

:32:59.:33:03.

vote NHS election for me. So it is about austerity and public services.

:33:04.:33:10.

About the NHS. Eve, you haven't voted before so we can't say you are

:33:11.:33:15.

Tory, used to be a Tory. Why did you vote for Jeremy Corbyn? Gave me

:33:16.:33:19.

hope, compared to every other party who campaigned and tried to get my

:33:20.:33:23.

vote, it was definitely Jeremy Corbyn who targeted the youth,

:33:24.:33:26.

targeted people like me, and said this could be your country. Have you

:33:27.:33:31.

always been quite political, not political at all? Started around

:33:32.:33:38.

when I was about 15, my mum always kept me in the loop, but it was

:33:39.:33:42.

definitely Brexit that got me into the politics. Brexit engaged you and

:33:43.:33:46.

you were a Remains a porter at the time? Yes. Abi, what about you? You

:33:47.:33:52.

are Labour, so we can say you are especially prone carbon? Not at all.

:33:53.:33:57.

The country is not working for everyone and has not been for a

:33:58.:34:03.

while. Like Eve said, we need to fund public services, we need

:34:04.:34:07.

opportunities. The whole thing, for me, this idea that the country can

:34:08.:34:10.

get better, our future can be better. Than the past, because at

:34:11.:34:16.

the moment it feels like we are in a state of decline, employment rights

:34:17.:34:19.

getting eroded, housing getting more and more unaffordable, and I just

:34:20.:34:22.

think Labour offered the chance of something better. Can out whether

:34:23.:34:30.

you can think of something in the Corbyn campaign that really grabbed

:34:31.:34:38.

you, align, speech? It was the manifesto, the promise to halt the

:34:39.:34:41.

cuts to community pharmacy. At the moment it is a 20 minute walk for

:34:42.:34:44.

most people to their community pharmacy and with what the

:34:45.:34:47.

Conservatives have implement and it will be much further and it is the

:34:48.:34:50.

hope they are giving me. And did you believe... Not asking this in

:34:51.:34:55.

negatively but did you believe everything in the manifesto, that

:34:56.:34:59.

the guy will deliver all of this? Because there was quite a lot of

:35:00.:35:03.

spending in there, wasn't there? I don't trust any manifesto, but I

:35:04.:35:07.

have to believe on these key issues like the NHS the Labour Party have

:35:08.:35:11.

shown they understand these issues. Come on, Eve, what was the moment in

:35:12.:35:16.

the campaign, the line, the speech you saw our inspired by? For the

:35:17.:35:22.

many, not the view. That hit me quite hard, and I like -- not the

:35:23.:35:30.

few. I like how he is trying to make spending there, with tax evasion,

:35:31.:35:34.

trying to get corporate tax, trying to make people earning over ?80,000

:35:35.:35:42.

pay their fair tax. He was a little bit equivocal about the EU... That

:35:43.:35:48.

didn't put you off that? No, it didn't, personally, because it was

:35:49.:35:51.

not as if David Cameron tried his very best. Abi, what moment in the

:35:52.:36:02.

campaign, because often... I just wondered. It was the manifesto

:36:03.:36:05.

launch, when I thought, oh, we could actually do it.

:36:06.:36:10.

You know, I have always thought a Labour Government is better for the

:36:11.:36:16.

country. I have always thought left of the Labour Party, that the Labour

:36:17.:36:23.

Party had the solutions. I thought we needed a radical shake-up, but

:36:24.:36:27.

then when the manifesto came out, I thought people would like this. With

:36:28.:36:34.

the Corbyn thing, the same initials as Jesus Christ, JC, a bit of a

:36:35.:36:40.

cult, and you have all given policy things, rather than Corbyn things.

:36:41.:36:47.

Green Mackey does have a fan club, young people on social media, Jeremy

:36:48.:36:50.

Corbyn, the absolute boy, he's a great guy dream act -- yes, he does

:36:51.:36:57.

have a Fanclub. But undercutting that is the sense that things need

:36:58.:37:00.

to change and it is possible to change things. He is not just a

:37:01.:37:08.

figurehead. It is not just about him. This is about people who have

:37:09.:37:11.

bold ideas and believe it is possible for things to get better,

:37:12.:37:16.

and necessary. Eve, a lot of people have said to some extent, trying to

:37:17.:37:19.

dismiss the durability of the kind of movement that has emerged, I

:37:20.:37:23.

suppose, that it is all about student fees, and whoever throws

:37:24.:37:26.

that at them, those that are the largest number of people, they win

:37:27.:37:30.

the election. I think you will see, no, it is not about student fees,

:37:31.:37:36.

but was it about student fees? My vote was not about student fees,

:37:37.:37:40.

because I decided early on I would vote Labour, but he came out with

:37:41.:37:43.

the student fees and it kind of sold it for me. And you believed it, that

:37:44.:37:48.

they would get rid of student fees? I'm not saying they will not, but

:37:49.:37:51.

you thought it was credible, before people have said that and not

:37:52.:37:55.

delivered it. I was hesitant that it would happen in 2017, that early on.

:37:56.:38:00.

Perhaps 2018, but I believed him. When he said he would scrap them

:38:01.:38:06.

eventually. OK, now, the other interesting aspect of this, and this

:38:07.:38:10.

sounds like a ghastly middle-aged man peering into the lives of

:38:11.:38:13.

younger people and I hate this kind of thing, but will you get your

:38:14.:38:16.

media from? Where you get your news from? What do you do? Is an all

:38:17.:38:23.

social media? Are you reading newspapers, what kind of stuff are

:38:24.:38:30.

you getting on social media? I am an avid tweeter all the time, mainly

:38:31.:38:34.

about pharmacy but also about politics, and I think my Twitter

:38:35.:38:38.

feed has changed recently. I was following a lot of pro-Tory feeds

:38:39.:38:41.

and suddenly it has become all about Labour, and I think... There is

:38:42.:38:45.

nothing beats a Sunday morning with a newspaper, but maybe I'm a bit

:38:46.:38:49.

old-fashioned like that. All right, Eve, what do you do? No newspapers

:38:50.:38:54.

for me. I don't read those kind of things. I am very much a social

:38:55.:39:00.

media person. The Canary... I get a lot of social media news from

:39:01.:39:02.

Twitter. Personally I don't trust this book. It is more of an old

:39:03.:39:08.

person's kind of... When you see from Twitter, what do you mean? Is

:39:09.:39:15.

it from... Clips from Newsnight, or wild unsourced allegation from

:39:16.:39:21.

somebody? It is fact a lot of the time, stating facts, with links and

:39:22.:39:25.

evidence behind it. Do you read it carefully? You don't just accept it?

:39:26.:39:28.

I don't want a fact without evidence. I think one of the most

:39:29.:39:33.

interesting things about this election is how much money the

:39:34.:39:37.

Conservatives spent on social media, and how the Labour Party managed to

:39:38.:39:40.

reach for more people with a fraction of the spending, just

:39:41.:39:43.

because young people... And older people, they were so enthusiastic

:39:44.:39:48.

about what they were offering they were sharing it, and showing their

:39:49.:39:54.

friends. I think they spent ?2000 on their Facebook adverts, and reached

:39:55.:39:58.

12.7 million people in the last week of Facebook adverts, whereas the

:39:59.:40:00.

Tories spent ?1 million on Facebook and did not have the same reach.

:40:01.:40:04.

Thank you. Last and really important question. Come the next election, do

:40:05.:40:11.

you think that you and your peers will behave in the same way as you

:40:12.:40:15.

did on this one, or do you think you will revert to the type, the

:40:16.:40:19.

stereotype, not going out, perhaps not being quite as engaged, do you

:40:20.:40:25.

think you will stick with it? I think Corbyn has created such a

:40:26.:40:30.

wave. Even if he is not there? It depends who replaces him but he

:40:31.:40:33.

himself has created such a way. Would you come back to the Tories? I

:40:34.:40:37.

think I would have to consider the manifesto is and what they actually

:40:38.:40:41.

deliver. We could still have another election yet. But you don't like

:40:42.:40:45.

paying high taxes? I don't like paying high taxes but I don't want

:40:46.:40:49.

to see people suffer and I don't want a return to the nasty party.

:40:50.:40:51.

Thank you all very much. Now, in a story that was seemingly

:40:52.:40:53.

designed for the great pun-machine that is Twitter,

:40:54.:40:56.

we learned today that there will be no goats harmed in the writing

:40:57.:40:59.

of the Queen's Speech. The parchment on which it is written

:41:00.:41:06.

is called goats skin parchment but it turns out that is, in fact,

:41:07.:41:09.

not made of the skin of goats. So whenever the speech takes place,

:41:10.:41:12.

there were at least some celebrations ringing

:41:13.:41:15.

out across the country. We want to be free to do

:41:16.:41:16.

what we want to do, That's what we're going to do,

:41:17.:41:25.

we're going to have a party.

:41:26.:41:31.

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