03/07/2017 Newsnight


03/07/2017

The public sector pay cap, allegations about the SAS in Afghanistan, President Trump's tweets and veteran music producer Clive Langer.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 03/07/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

I think we should listen to the pay review bodies who govern each

:00:00.:00:13.

individual area of public sector pay.

:00:14.:00:14.

Has the government being underpaying nurses and teachers, Mr Secretary?

:00:15.:00:26.

The deficit problem has not exactly been cured but things have changed

:00:27.:00:31.

since 2010 and politics sees other issues as more pressing,

:00:32.:00:34.

none more so than pay for five million public workers.

:00:35.:00:38.

A veteran deficit slayer gives us his view.

:00:39.:00:44.

If you're struggling to keep up with the Trump

:00:45.:00:49.

social media strategy, we'll give you the latest.

:00:50.:00:53.

And more to the point, we'll discuss what it says about him.

:00:54.:00:59.

What have this lot have got in common?

:01:00.:01:02.

The answer is music producer Clive Langer.

:01:03.:01:10.

When I wrote with David Bowie, we met socially a few times.

:01:11.:01:23.

The debate over what replaces austerity is under way and public

:01:24.:01:28.

The 1% cap on pay rises remains for now, but there are those

:01:29.:01:33.

in government who want more pay for public workers, paid for by tax

:01:34.:01:36.

rises, others who think we should borrow to pay more and,

:01:37.:01:39.

presumably, others who think the pay cap should stay for the next few

:01:40.:01:42.

years until the deficit is definitively slain.

:01:43.:01:44.

The economic arguments are interesting given

:01:45.:01:46.

that the deficit is not the problem it was.

:01:47.:01:48.

But the politics is even more interesting -

:01:49.:01:50.

even among a certain class of deficit headbangers

:01:51.:01:53.

And then there's the fact that the debate about it

:01:54.:01:58.

1000 firemen from all parts of the country had for Hyde Park in the

:01:59.:02:14.

rain to publicise the demand for higher pay. Public sector pay has

:02:15.:02:17.

long been an issue and an emotive one. One claim for more money that

:02:18.:02:23.

everybody supports except the powers that be is for the nurses. 2010 is

:02:24.:02:30.

when the latest vagaries affected public service. The government is

:02:31.:02:34.

asking the public sector to accept a two-year pay freeze. That was

:02:35.:02:40.

followed by a 1% cap on pay rises. Year after year, who knew we would

:02:41.:02:45.

still be talking about it in 2017? The problem is that in delivering

:02:46.:02:51.

spending cuts each small sounding 1% saved on public sector pay lops

:02:52.:02:56.

almost 2 billion of public spending. For ages restraint seemed like easy

:02:57.:03:01.

money for the Exchequer. And there was a holy trinity of arguments in

:03:02.:03:07.

favour. One, back in 2010, the need to make savings was greater with the

:03:08.:03:10.

deficit running at 10% of national income. Two, the justification was

:03:11.:03:17.

clearer. Public sector pay was running perhaps higher than

:03:18.:03:21.

equivalent private sector pay. Three, public sector workers had not

:03:22.:03:24.

seen their pensions as badly curtailed. In 2010 public sector pay

:03:25.:03:31.

was a relatively attractive thing to hold down because it had done better

:03:32.:03:35.

than private sector pay in the years following the recession. Therefore,

:03:36.:03:39.

the government might have thought it could suppress public sector pay

:03:40.:03:43.

growth without too much pain in terms of people leaving and getting

:03:44.:03:48.

jobs in the private sector. But now all three of the trinity of

:03:49.:03:50.

arguments have diminished. The deficit is smaller. The public

:03:51.:03:56.

sector pay advantage over private sector workers has shrunk away and

:03:57.:03:58.

public sector pensions have been trimmed as well. So, is Whitehall

:03:59.:04:07.

ready to declare austerity dead? Cautious economists may worry that

:04:08.:04:11.

the public sector has only got two modes, tap shut or tap gushing. With

:04:12.:04:18.

urgency over the deficit gone, it will not be careful using pay

:04:19.:04:22.

restraint on a case-by-case basis. No, it will be a money rush. It

:04:23.:04:28.

takes strong leadership to stop it happening and with minority

:04:29.:04:31.

government we do not have strong leadership. Which is why it seems

:04:32.:04:37.

post-austerity politics has been unleashed in an ill disciplined way.

:04:38.:04:42.

Let's not jump ahead of ourselves. The policy has not changed for now,

:04:43.:04:47.

but the talk has surely gone too far for the direction of travel to

:04:48.:04:49.

remain unchanged for long. Our political editor

:04:50.:04:53.

Nick Watt is here. Tell us more about the goings on and

:04:54.:05:05.

the behind the scenes issues. There is irritation in the Treasury

:05:06.:05:09.

bordering on fury that now we have had a third of the Cabinet

:05:10.:05:13.

signalling they want that 1% public sector pay cap to be reviewed. Item

:05:14.:05:18.

hearing talks these ministers are virtue signalling and what has

:05:19.:05:21.

happened to the constitutional principle that the Prime Minister is

:05:22.:05:25.

first among equals? All the Cabinet think they are equal. In a speech

:05:26.:05:30.

tonight to the CBI the Chancellor said there is no change to the

:05:31.:05:34.

policy of striking the right balance of being fair to our public servers

:05:35.:05:39.

and fair to those who pay for them. But he said the government is

:05:40.:05:42.

continually assessing that balance and in a sign of how complex he

:05:43.:05:47.

regards this, he says there should be a grown-up debate on how to fund

:05:48.:05:51.

public services and the only way to do that sustainably in the long term

:05:52.:05:56.

is by growing the economy. A grown-up debate. Why can't we have a

:05:57.:06:01.

childish debate! Do you think Philip Hammond can do anything about this?

:06:02.:06:06.

Will he? This is a minority government so it feels that the

:06:07.:06:10.

Chancellor may well act in his budget later this year and Mason the

:06:11.:06:16.

signal in the run-up to that budget. Interestingly in his speech tonight

:06:17.:06:21.

he said the spike in inflation due to currency depreciation has led to

:06:22.:06:24.

what he has called frustration over the stagnation in real pay growth. I

:06:25.:06:29.

understand there is a concern between the gap between that 1% pay

:06:30.:06:35.

cap and inflation which is currently running at close to 3%. I think what

:06:36.:06:41.

we could be looking at later this year is movement in that area by

:06:42.:06:47.

putting a link between inflation and public sector pay rises. Maybe not a

:06:48.:06:51.

real terms rise in pay, but what you could maybe see is perhaps you could

:06:52.:06:58.

have a rise in pay at 1% below the CPI. The consumer prices index.

:06:59.:07:01.

Ken Clarke was Chancellor of the Exchequer between 1993

:07:02.:07:03.

until 1997 as well as a number of other senior Cabinet roles.

:07:04.:07:09.

He spent money as well as dishing it out, but in his years the deficit

:07:10.:07:19.

came down substantially. Is there an economic case at the moment for

:07:20.:07:22.

continuing with the pay restraint in the public sector beyond this year?

:07:23.:07:28.

Yes, there is, until the economy shows signs of definitely recovering

:07:29.:07:35.

from the current serious slowdown. Now we are a minority government,

:07:36.:07:39.

but one that is intending to go on, and we have to work out our aims. I

:07:40.:07:43.

presume we will carry on for a few years and we will have a successful

:07:44.:07:49.

government which means we show we are confident, we have a reasonable

:07:50.:07:53.

economy, we avoid going into recession and we get nearer a

:07:54.:07:56.

reasonable Brexit deal and we achieved reasonable growth. If

:07:57.:08:01.

everyone is going to get into the lobby of the week and this year it

:08:02.:08:11.

is public sector pay... The politically vulnerable. What you

:08:12.:08:19.

cannot do is give in to that. What would be disastrous and silly

:08:20.:08:22.

economically would be putting money in to fuel a biased in pay in the

:08:23.:08:31.

public sector pursuing inflation. You are making out the case for

:08:32.:08:34.

public sector pay rises is weakness and stupidity and you have retention

:08:35.:08:42.

problems which means you have to pay them more. The public sector used to

:08:43.:08:45.

be paid more than the private sector and that has gone now. You can rely

:08:46.:08:51.

on that. In parts of the country you have secure and reliable jobs.

:08:52.:08:56.

Nurses are so popular, they are highly respected by me and other

:08:57.:09:00.

people and they are on the front line and we have a problem with

:09:01.:09:06.

nurses. Brexit has meant devaluation which has meant this country is less

:09:07.:09:10.

attractive for nurses to work on and people have gone back. Whatever the

:09:11.:09:18.

cause, basic economics means if you are short of people, you pay more to

:09:19.:09:22.

get them. How much are you going to give? If the government gives into

:09:23.:09:28.

this, it will not get any credit for it. Firstly our opponents, the

:09:29.:09:35.

Labour Party, will say it is not enough, you have abandoned the cap.

:09:36.:09:39.

The newspapers and the political bubble will say another defeat for

:09:40.:09:42.

Theresa May and the Chancellor. That is what happened to the very

:09:43.:09:48.

sensible decision on abortion for Northern Ireland women which Theresa

:09:49.:09:54.

May was extremely anxious about, but it was portrayed as a defeat for

:09:55.:09:58.

her. You say the politics mean you have to stand firm. Responding to

:09:59.:10:03.

Labour's manifesto which was rather popular, responding to that by

:10:04.:10:08.

getting halfway on matching certain things is not going to work? If you

:10:09.:10:14.

are in government you have to take tough, difficult decisions which are

:10:15.:10:19.

in the general public interest, including public servants, because

:10:20.:10:23.

you wish to keep a strong, growing, modern economy. Throwing money about

:10:24.:10:27.

to make yourself more popular next week is a mistake. When you were

:10:28.:10:33.

Chancellor you got the deficit down. It was not starting from such a high

:10:34.:10:38.

base. You took on popular actions. You put up taxes and you cut

:10:39.:10:43.

spending and you did them in about even measure. That was a political

:10:44.:10:48.

choice. You thought, let's be a centrist government and we will do a

:10:49.:10:53.

bit on spending and a bit on taxes. George Osborne's austerity was very

:10:54.:10:58.

different. It was more than 80% on spending. He did not put up taxes.

:10:59.:11:04.

You could say it has gone too far on the public service side and we need

:11:05.:11:07.

to spend more and we need to put up taxes to pay for it. He took over

:11:08.:11:13.

from a very high taxing government, so he was restrained. What you have

:11:14.:11:18.

to do is address the reality of the economic situation of the moment.

:11:19.:11:22.

Behind all this somebody used earlier the phrase grown-up

:11:23.:11:28.

politics, if you are in government, unlike these other people floating

:11:29.:11:32.

around doing interviews, you have to look at the reality and your duty to

:11:33.:11:37.

deliver is an economy which in a few years' time is better than when you

:11:38.:11:44.

took over. The Labour Party held, but when we reached the election we

:11:45.:11:49.

were miles ahead of them in the opinion polls on the economy. What

:11:50.:11:55.

do you think Philip Hammond means by grown-up conversation? It addresses

:11:56.:12:02.

the extremely serious economic problems we face. Is not grown-up at

:12:03.:12:06.

the moment? Make a cheap political point. It is the politicians as much

:12:07.:12:13.

as the media, in the political bubble, it is not grown-up at all.

:12:14.:12:20.

Brexit has stimulated a devaluation and inflation and living standards

:12:21.:12:25.

are dropping and we are the slowest growing economy. Gove and Johnson,

:12:26.:12:33.

those who wanted Brexit, are those who have been out in the last 24

:12:34.:12:37.

hours suggesting public sector pay needs to be raised. I think your

:12:38.:12:47.

clips span what Michael said. You have cut out all the stuff when we

:12:48.:12:51.

talked about fiscal discipline. No one else is doing that. I am

:12:52.:12:54.

delighted to see Cabinet ministers being let out, being allowed to do

:12:55.:12:59.

what Cabinet minister should do, and go out and talk about politics and

:13:00.:13:03.

defend their policies and explain why they are doing things. Philip

:13:04.:13:07.

should do more of it, to Reza may should do more of it and go back to

:13:08.:13:11.

sensible discussion. All this PR rubbish about slogans, get rid of

:13:12.:13:22.

it. They need to practice otherwise they will get spun to make mischief.

:13:23.:13:32.

You are saying we should not worry. They need to be reminded they all

:13:33.:13:36.

got to contribute to the serious job in hand otherwise the whole Cabinet

:13:37.:13:40.

will go down if they respond to populist urges and make a mess of

:13:41.:13:47.

the economy when people look back in a few years' time. You will make a

:13:48.:13:52.

mess of the economy if you pour money in and about will have to

:13:53.:13:56.

raise interest rates, you will cast serious doubts on economic ability.

:13:57.:14:03.

You cast the public sector pay issue as populism, a word bandied about a

:14:04.:14:08.

lot. You see it as all part of one and the same. It is this week's

:14:09.:14:13.

media campaign. The nurses and doctors settled for 1% without any

:14:14.:14:19.

particular the murdered's months ago and suddenly it is the great

:14:20.:14:25.

passionate cause of the day. You famously called Theresa May a bloody

:14:26.:14:29.

difficult woman. She took that as a badge of honour and was quoting it.

:14:30.:14:33.

Do you still think she is a bloody difficult woman? She needs to be

:14:34.:14:40.

difficult. Is chic or is she a pushover? I hope she proves to be a

:14:41.:14:46.

bloody difficult woman and says, we have the serious task of government,

:14:47.:14:50.

let us follow grown-up politics or we will be stuck in that cliche. We

:14:51.:14:55.

have an economic difficulty, we do not want to be left behind by the

:14:56.:15:01.

developed world, we have a lot of tough challenges, we are not

:15:02.:15:03.

suddenly throwing money about so that we can beat the Labour Party

:15:04.:15:08.

and say we are giving everybody a pay rise will stab you will set of

:15:09.:15:14.

private sector pay rises and set off interest rates and cause a blow to

:15:15.:15:16.

confidence and cause further slowdown.

:15:17.:15:20.

For the past three years the Royal Military Police, the RMP,

:15:21.:15:23.

have been investigating hundreds of cases of alleged wrongdoing

:15:24.:15:25.

Yesterday the Sunday Times reported claims of a cover up of dozens

:15:26.:15:33.

of unlawful killings by what the newspaper described

:15:34.:15:35.

The Sunday Times reported that fewer than ten cases are now

:15:36.:15:41.

being actively investigated by the RMP and just one of them

:15:42.:15:45.

is a case of unlawful killing involving a 2011 SAS operation

:15:46.:15:47.

Our defence editor Mark Urban has been following these allegations

:15:48.:15:51.

for years and can now add something to the story for us.

:15:52.:15:58.

Take us through the allegations. Essentially, if you talk to people

:15:59.:16:05.

who have been involved with special operations in Afghanistan, there is

:16:06.:16:11.

a widespread belief that the SAS at times was using excessive force or

:16:12.:16:16.

stop that might be at the extreme end, getting people who should have

:16:17.:16:20.

been taken prisoner, and going right the way back to such things like

:16:21.:16:25.

so-called tactical questioning, I practice they ramped up in Iraq in

:16:26.:16:31.

2000 rural macro and also took to Afghanistan, quite rough

:16:32.:16:35.

interrogation of people on site. Where raids were taking place was

:16:36.:16:39.

the these kind of excessive use of force. It is right to say that

:16:40.:16:45.

people that you speak to believe the SAS were engaged in that at times

:16:46.:16:48.

during the operations in Afghanistan. What was going on?

:16:49.:16:53.

There were a set of factors, they came to it late, the Royal Marines

:16:54.:16:59.

rivals had dominated the theatre until 2009. There was pressure on

:17:00.:17:04.

them to achieve results and they achieved them a certain way in Iraq

:17:05.:17:07.

and it was pretty kinetic as they would say. There was also the

:17:08.:17:11.

perception that the detention system was broken, and this is something we

:17:12.:17:16.

have reported before on this programme, that people who were

:17:17.:17:20.

being arrested, thousands, all but a small number were released

:17:21.:17:23.

immediately and that led to an allegation from someone who ran the

:17:24.:17:35.

detention centre, brought STUDIO: Broadcast we had in 2015.

:17:36.:17:45.

I've spoke to people on the ground who said that

:17:46.:17:50.

whenever they found out what was happening to detainees it

:17:51.:17:52.

In preference they would rather shoot them on the ground,

:17:53.:17:57.

to save the taxpayer money and to save soldiers being killed.

:17:58.:18:00.

That is a pretty extraordinary claim. That was two years ago. The

:18:01.:18:05.

Sunday Times had their report yesterday. What do we know about the

:18:06.:18:10.

investigation? The first thing we have to say, between a belief or a

:18:11.:18:18.

conviction or a hearsay, we have got to consider his comments in that

:18:19.:18:24.

context, and a criminal context that can be sent to the prosecution

:18:25.:18:31.

services authority, by the military police, that is a different thing,

:18:32.:18:34.

and there are the rights of those accused. What we have seen in this

:18:35.:18:41.

operation, a team of 100 people, out of hundreds of cases involving all

:18:42.:18:45.

of the forces, not just the SAS, they have come down to less than ten

:18:46.:18:49.

where they still feel there could be a prosecutable case. All sorts of

:18:50.:18:53.

reasons for that, but not least, if you want to find out what happened

:18:54.:18:58.

3-4 years ago in a remote village in Helmand province, the likelihood

:18:59.:19:02.

that is now under Taliban control and it will be very hard to access

:19:03.:19:05.

people who could give you accurate eyewitness testimony and they are

:19:06.:19:10.

all sorts of difficulties here. And that has led some to conclude that

:19:11.:19:15.

things are maybe being hurried along or it is being hushed up, but the

:19:16.:19:20.

MOD would say no, we have got to do this properly and the evidence has

:19:21.:19:23.

not been there for prosecutions up to date. Mark, thanks.

:19:24.:19:27.

Before we came on air I spoke to Johnny Mercer,

:19:28.:19:30.

the Conservative MP who before entering Parliament was Captain

:19:31.:19:32.

in the Royal Artillery and served in Afghanistan.

:19:33.:19:34.

I asked him if it was the first time he had ever heard of such

:19:35.:19:37.

allegations. During my time of doing that sort

:19:38.:19:41.

of work in 2008, 2009, I never saw any of this

:19:42.:19:44.

kind of behaviour. Heard reports of it

:19:45.:19:46.

or talk of it or gossip? There is always talk of stories

:19:47.:19:59.

going round in theatre. There is always Chinese whispers,

:20:00.:20:02.

there are always stories that get And we have to be very

:20:03.:20:04.

clear on the difference between those and unlawful acts

:20:05.:20:19.

that have happened. If unlawful acts are found to have

:20:20.:20:21.

happen, then clearly we will deal with those

:20:22.:20:23.

in the appropriate process. You were very active in the campaign

:20:24.:20:26.

against vexatious claims in relation to allegations against British

:20:27.:20:28.

troops in Iraq. When you look at what the stories

:20:29.:20:30.

are from Afghanistan, do you think these are very

:20:31.:20:32.

different to the situation in Iraq? The work I did around

:20:33.:20:35.

closing down the Iraq historical allegations team,

:20:36.:20:39.

it was something where at the end of that process the system

:20:40.:20:41.

was being completely abused and persecuting soldiers

:20:42.:20:44.

for incidents which had never I think, whichever workforce you're

:20:45.:20:46.

in, if people come forward with allegations of wrongdoing

:20:47.:20:53.

or unlawful conduct, The values and standards that

:20:54.:20:57.

certainly when I was serving and I know still exist

:20:58.:21:04.

within the British Army are not compatible with what was in that

:21:05.:21:06.

Sunday Times article. How would you describe

:21:07.:21:09.

the allegations as you have read them and tried to make

:21:10.:21:11.

sense of them? These terms, rogue units

:21:12.:21:16.

and so on, sound great Whether or not individuals have

:21:17.:21:18.

broken the law whilst they're conducting operations on behalf

:21:19.:21:24.

of this nation. I think when we start using these

:21:25.:21:26.

terms that perhaps aren't as clear and we are looking to, in a way,

:21:27.:21:35.

sensationalise what has gone on. Let's remember these

:21:36.:21:38.

are allegations at the moment. I know the army and the MoD

:21:39.:21:40.

has the ability to hold But there are people who are saying

:21:41.:21:46.

these investigations are being closed down before

:21:47.:21:53.

they have really had You're confident there is no

:21:54.:21:55.

cover-up, basically? It sounds like you're

:21:56.:22:01.

confident about that. I'm confident that the individuals

:22:02.:22:03.

who are served with, who I know are still serving,

:22:04.:22:05.

the chain of command in the military, the military side

:22:06.:22:07.

of the MoD, would not accept any And where there is evidence and that

:22:08.:22:11.

evidence is critically important, where there is evidence

:22:12.:22:17.

they will drill down on that I'm content that they

:22:18.:22:19.

would not cover this up. I don't know anybody who's serving

:22:20.:22:29.

who thinks that unlawful behaviour on operations is acceptable in any

:22:30.:22:32.

way whatsoever, regardless of cap If you read, for example,

:22:33.:22:34.

the comments under the Sunday Times report, many of the commenters say

:22:35.:22:45.

these guys are trying to protect us, this is guerrilla war,

:22:46.:22:48.

it's completely different to the wars of the First World War,

:22:49.:22:50.

the Second World War, and we need to hold these things

:22:51.:22:53.

to a different standard. Are they right to take

:22:54.:22:56.

that view or not? I fought in that conflict

:22:57.:22:58.

and I don't know anybody who fought in that conflict who did

:22:59.:23:02.

the operations we did who believes there is ever a reason

:23:03.:23:04.

to conduct unlawful behaviour. We try and give ourselves

:23:05.:23:06.

some legitimacy, some credibility, when we are trying

:23:07.:23:08.

to stabilise these countries. That's what separates

:23:09.:23:11.

us from the enemy. You cannot go around behaving

:23:12.:23:15.

in this manner and expect to win a counterinsurgency operation

:23:16.:23:18.

where you have to bring the population onside and ultimately

:23:19.:23:22.

it is their country and the solutions are all Afghan

:23:23.:23:25.

or Iraq solutions depending So, no, there aren't people

:23:26.:23:27.

in the military who think this is a terribly dirty war

:23:28.:23:32.

and we behave like everybody else. We are a professional army

:23:33.:23:35.

and there are things that set us This is one of them

:23:36.:23:38.

and we adhere to it. It takes quite a lot to force

:23:39.:23:41.

Donald Trump off the news agenda but what with the general election

:23:42.:23:48.

and its inconclusive result, multiple terror attacks

:23:49.:23:56.

and the Grenfell fire, even the headline-grabbing President

:23:57.:23:58.

has been taking a lower profile, That changed yesterday

:23:59.:24:00.

when he tweeted a video of him attacking a man with the CNN logo

:24:01.:24:04.

where his head was. This had been doctored

:24:05.:24:09.

from an appearance on a wrestling This raised accusations

:24:10.:24:12.

that he was inciting violence against the mainstream media that,

:24:13.:24:16.

he asserts, has been So, for anyone not paying close

:24:17.:24:18.

attention, here's a brief catch up on what the President has been up

:24:19.:24:22.

to in recent weeks. Oh my God, what's going to happen!

:24:23.:24:45.

I'm fine. My family brought me up really tough, this is nothing, but

:24:46.:24:51.

for me personally what I'm concerned about is to what this once again

:24:52.:24:55.

reveals about the President of the United States. We're OK. The

:24:56.:25:00.

country's not. So we're going to talk and Sewell we

:25:01.:25:20.

can do, we're getting very close, but for the country we have to have

:25:21.:25:26.

it up and running again -- and see what we can do. What we have seen is

:25:27.:25:34.

the hiring of a number of people to support the investigation, most of

:25:35.:25:38.

them quite well respected law enforcement officials from prior

:25:39.:25:45.

administrations. And there have been some leaks about the direction of

:25:46.:25:48.

the probe and what it is focusing on but we don't know where it is going

:25:49.:25:52.

to end up, but it appears to be underway in very serious way.

:25:53.:26:18.

He tweeted about this over the weekend, saying may the fake news

:26:19.:26:24.

media will focus on the success we are having, but we have covered the

:26:25.:26:27.

story is about what is happening, positive and negative, during his

:26:28.:26:33.

presidency, but if you wanted us to stop writing about his outrageous

:26:34.:26:40.

tweets, he could stop issuing them, but if there's anything he better

:26:41.:26:42.

than anyone should realise is that he does have the ability to set the

:26:43.:26:45.

agenda. Joining me now in the studio

:26:46.:26:48.

is Jonathan Freedland, author and journalist,

:26:49.:26:51.

and from Los Angeles, Charlotte Laws, Trump supporter

:26:52.:26:53.

and political analyst. Charlotte, many people have said he

:26:54.:27:03.

was inciting violence. With this last tweet, what do you say to that?

:27:04.:27:08.

I said that is false. It was basically a joke. It was humorous,

:27:09.:27:16.

like the three Stooges or a cartoon. He was basically trying to say he

:27:17.:27:20.

was victorious over CNN, that they had three journalists who had to

:27:21.:27:26.

resign because of a fake news story and so that was what he was trying

:27:27.:27:31.

to say. Many of his supporters like that, and I would like him to be

:27:32.:27:35.

more presidential, but many of his supporters were excited about the

:27:36.:27:38.

fact that he was being authentic and the usual Trump and that he was

:27:39.:27:44.

speaking directly to them through social media and there are things

:27:45.:27:47.

that people liked about it and he got 400,000 likes on that one tweet.

:27:48.:27:55.

Jonathan, on that specific one, do you accept it was a pantomime

:27:56.:28:01.

violence rather than incitement? It is not the worst thing that he has

:28:02.:28:08.

done, when he called the press the enemies of the people, that was much

:28:09.:28:12.

worse, which had an authoritarian Echo. But journalists criticising

:28:13.:28:19.

him have been on the end of death threats and five and threats from

:28:20.:28:24.

social media. Some of the Trump supporters have praised him.

:28:25.:28:32.

Journalists have shown their timeline full of threats and death

:28:33.:28:37.

threats. Charlotte, you said you would like him to be more

:28:38.:28:40.

presidential, but has he not cause an American political discourse

:28:41.:28:45.

significantly? -- coarsened. Is this a problem. You get people who

:28:46.:28:50.

respond to this in a very violent and problematic way in this debases

:28:51.:28:55.

it for everybody? I do think the violence has stemmed from him,

:28:56.:29:01.

rather just the divisiveness of the whole campaign. The media has waged

:29:02.:29:06.

a campaign against him which continues on a daily basis and I

:29:07.:29:09.

think that riles up people on the left. And on the right. Are they not

:29:10.:29:16.

allowed to wage a campaign against in the right wing media wages

:29:17.:29:23.

campaign against the likes of the Clintons and Obama. It is the

:29:24.:29:28.

buyers, that is what it really is. Fake news, there are three types of

:29:29.:29:35.

fake news, biased news, erroneous news where there are errors and

:29:36.:29:38.

there are things like the onion which is completely fake. It is the

:29:39.:29:42.

first two which are a problem. The biased news is pervasive on the left

:29:43.:29:47.

and right and it is very difficult as a consumer to even know who you

:29:48.:29:51.

can trust. That has become a big issue. You are not just saying that

:29:52.:29:56.

is the anti-trump media, that is a problem for everybody? It has become

:29:57.:30:03.

more of a problem with anti-Trump media because most of the media is

:30:04.:30:08.

against him, unfortunately. Jonathan, you work for The Guardian

:30:09.:30:11.

newspaper and you have written a book, it is about an in trading plot

:30:12.:30:19.

-- intriguing plot, a demigod president has taken over the United

:30:20.:30:20.

States. I would stress it is a novel and no

:30:21.:30:30.

president is named. If it was written by someone from the National

:30:31.:30:36.

Rifle Association and Hillary Clinton was president, would we not

:30:37.:30:40.

be saying that is violence and it was debating? It was written by a

:30:41.:30:45.

political activist and it was a novel and a thriller, it would be

:30:46.:30:50.

like saying, you cannot write that Day Of The Jackal because you would

:30:51.:30:55.

incite people to kill the French president. It is a different

:30:56.:31:06.

situation. How do you think liberal establishment society, people like

:31:07.:31:09.

you, how should they respond to the Donald Trump tweets? One argument is

:31:10.:31:15.

ignore them. We are assessing over every week and another silly tweets

:31:16.:31:20.

and we are talking about that and not American health care and the

:31:21.:31:24.

budget and all the other things. You cannot do that. The speech of a

:31:25.:31:28.

president is the act of a president. I remember somebody wanting to

:31:29.:31:36.

restore dignity to the White House because they thought the other

:31:37.:31:41.

president had defined it somehow. But Donald Trump attacks women for

:31:42.:31:46.

their appearance, he has this weird obsession about women and blood and

:31:47.:31:49.

you cannot say the president of the United States should be ignored. He

:31:50.:31:54.

himself says these tweets are acts of the president and you have to

:31:55.:32:00.

report them. Sometimes they are fat and you have to report the fact that

:32:01.:32:04.

Bob Moller's investigation is widely known to include all kinds of things

:32:05.:32:09.

and you have to report that. We are all talking about the tweets and not

:32:10.:32:14.

the stuff he is doing. That would be great if under the radar he was

:32:15.:32:17.

doing a lot of stuff, but what do you feel he has achieved? He has

:32:18.:32:22.

done a lot under the radar because they say he has signed more bills

:32:23.:32:27.

than any president since Truman. We have more jobs in the United States,

:32:28.:32:32.

he has done a lot with regards to immigration. We have two exciting

:32:33.:32:37.

bills before the Senate, Kate Law and another one regarding citizens.

:32:38.:32:45.

He has done a lot for veterans. Veterans can go to any hospital

:32:46.:32:50.

provider. I thought that the divorce was a good pick because we will go

:32:51.:32:56.

towards choice hopefully. He has done quite a bit. But many in the

:32:57.:33:03.

media do not report that. They obsess over the tweets. There is a

:33:04.:33:07.

double standard. If the NRA were to do some kind of book or a play about

:33:08.:33:17.

killing a woman president, if it was Hillary Clinton, or Barack Obama if

:33:18.:33:21.

it was a black president, everybody would be outraged about that. There

:33:22.:33:24.

is a double standard out there and it has become politically correct to

:33:25.:33:30.

attack Trump. The Trump record is disastrous by his own standards. He

:33:31.:33:35.

set out to build a wall, and to repeal Obamacare, he has not

:33:36.:33:40.

achieved things and it has been a disastrous presidency already. Thank

:33:41.:33:44.

He is one of the greatest rock 'n' roll hitmakers

:33:45.:33:48.

Veteran British producer Clive Langer is the man behind

:33:49.:33:51.

a string of chart-toppers by stars including David Bowie, Madness,

:33:52.:33:53.

Morrisey, Elvis Costello, Dexy's Midnight Runners

:33:54.:33:56.

When you hear a record with "that English pop thing",

:33:57.:34:00.

as Langer calls it, chances are he was responsible.

:34:01.:34:07.

Now though, Langer's decided to put his mixing desk in mothballs

:34:08.:34:10.

and return to his first love - writing and performing.

:34:11.:34:12.

As he works on a new project - the Clang Group - he talked

:34:13.:34:15.

to our Culture Correspondent Stephen Smith.

:34:16.:34:17.

In a studio in south London, alumni of Clive Langer's influential art

:34:18.:34:31.

school band Deaf School are working on new material.

:34:32.:34:35.

# No change, no change # No change, no change

:34:36.:34:43.

Langer hasn't performed much for the past 25 years.

:34:44.:34:50.

Since stumbling into producing almost by accident,

:34:51.:34:52.

I was the guy that would hang around at the control room

:34:53.:34:58.

while everybody was doing their work on an album.

:34:59.:35:01.

Madness were in, they were in a band called the North London Invaders.

:35:02.:35:13.

I went to a rehearsal, I heard "My Girl".

:35:14.:35:15.

# My girl's mad at me # We argued just the other night #.

:35:16.:35:27.

When I went into producing this record with Madness on a track in a

:35:28.:35:32.

studio called Pathway, I had some idea of what I was doing.

:35:33.:35:37.

# Why can't she see # She's lovely to me.

:35:38.:35:49.

We worked with bands, normally in a live situation,

:35:50.:35:51.

recording what they sounded like and then making the most of that.

:35:52.:35:55.

In a kind of sensitive way, hopefully.

:35:56.:35:58.

Together with producing partner Alan Winstanley,

:35:59.:36:07.

Langer enjoyed a string of hits with Dexy's Midnight

:36:08.:36:10.

If you hear a record with that English pop thing,

:36:11.:36:27.

as Langer calls it, it's probably one of his.

:36:28.:36:31.

So I wrote this tune and I wanted Robert Wyatt to

:36:32.:36:37.

I played it to Elvis at a party, at Nick Lowe's party, and I

:36:38.:36:44.

Yeah, he then wrote the lyric for it.

:36:45.:37:00.

# It was just a rumour that was spread around town

:37:01.:37:17.

At some point I thought all the a and our people were giving us the

:37:18.:37:26.

slightly complex characters as opposed to the pop groups so we

:37:27.:38:34.

spent a year and a half working with Morrisey and it was a great

:38:35.:38:36.

experience. They only had a small record

:38:37.:39:12.

company, but we had the extra half percent, expecting them to sell

:39:13.:39:15.

20,000, and the next thing I know it was 6 million in America. So I paid

:39:16.:39:18.

my mortgages. Very nice. Steve Smith. And that is it for

:39:19.:39:40.

tonight. We leave you with the news that

:39:41.:39:54.

Bank of England staff are to go on strike at the end

:39:55.:39:56.

of the month. Proving irony isn't dead,

:39:57.:39:59.

the dispute is about "below Less amusingly, one

:40:00.:40:01.

of the departments going Let's hope no one remembers

:40:02.:40:04.

what her Majesty keeps in the bank's There is warmer weather on the way

:40:05.:40:51.

for England and Wales this week, but wetter weather for Northern Ireland

:40:52.:40:53.

and southern Scotland and parts of northern England. Sun north of that

:40:54.:41:01.

and size of that. The rain will ease a bit later in the afternoon in

:41:02.:41:05.

Northern Ireland, northern Scotland stays mainly dry, but there will be

:41:06.:41:11.

the odd shower around. For the Central Belt and southern Scotland

:41:12.:41:14.

and northern counties of England it will be a wet and cool day. From

:41:15.:41:21.

Manchester to Sheffield it will be a bit warmer compared with the rainy

:41:22.:41:25.

zone. South of that and in England and Wales the sun will be reluctant

:41:26.:41:32.

in the morning, but it will break in the afternoon like it did today and

:41:33.:41:36.

it will feel a bit warmer, more places getting 20 or just above. As

:41:37.:41:43.

we look further into the week for Wednesday the northern half of the

:41:44.:41:48.

country will fare a little bit better. Southern parts are getting

:41:49.:41:55.

warmer, certainly hot on Wednesday and the humidity will be heading up

:41:56.:42:03.

as well. By Wednesday there is just an area of cloud in the rainy zone.

:42:04.:42:07.

Northern Scotland still seeing

:42:08.:42:08.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS