Browse content similar to 04/07/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It's summer, and it is the season for the next wave of desperate | :00:08. | :00:10. | |
migrants to try and cross the Mediterranean to Europe. | :00:11. | :00:12. | |
In parts of Italy the strain is beginning to show. | :00:13. | :00:24. | |
We want to divide Europe from immigration and multiculturalism. | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
NGOs trying to save migrants from their precarious | :00:29. | :00:31. | |
boats are being accused of facilitating people smuggling. | :00:32. | :00:33. | |
And there's new friction between European countries. | :00:34. | :00:34. | |
if Europe couldn't handle migration effectively two years ago, or last | :00:35. | :00:37. | |
The government promised to rehouse all the Grenfell survivors. | :00:38. | :00:45. | |
But are residents accepting the option being offered to them? | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
The second one was near a very busy road and that was not sitting my | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
needs. Gay pride has come a long way from | :00:56. | :01:02. | |
THIS in the '70s to Pride in 2016. As this weekend's march approaches, | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
we ask a veteran of the LGBT movement what it took to get | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
from there to here. Hello, Europe, again, predictably, | :01:10. | :01:17. | |
finds itself enmeshed in arguments It is true that last year, | :01:18. | :01:20. | |
it did manage a deal with Turkey, that closed the eastern route, | :01:21. | :01:27. | |
from say Syria to Greece and beyond. But that still leaves tens | :01:28. | :01:30. | |
of thousands of people this year, taking the route up | :01:31. | :01:33. | |
from Libya into Italy. Those numbers cause | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
friction in Italy itself, Today Austria announced that it's | :01:38. | :01:38. | |
ready to deploy troops And there's a new focus | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
to the argument now: the role of NGOs rescuing migrants | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
from the mediterranean. They face accusations they're | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
encouraging people smuggling. Two thousand have died this year - | :01:52. | :01:57. | |
Looking at the numbers it seems For desperate people it can be | :01:58. | :02:14. | |
tempting to cross because the bulk survive. About 97%. | :02:15. | :02:16. | |
We have an extended report, now from Yalda Hakim | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
whose been in Sicily, which is on the frontline | :02:20. | :02:21. | |
A flimsy inflatable dinghy full of migrants is adrift in the open | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
sea, around 30 miles from the Libyan coast. | :02:26. | :02:27. | |
They have no fuel, no water, and no food. | :02:28. | :02:38. | |
They've been detected by a Spanish NGO. | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
Most of these migrants have never seen the ocean. | :02:43. | :02:45. | |
After hours at sea in the sweltering heat, they are | :02:46. | :02:51. | |
This boat has just arrived with 500 migrants who been | :02:52. | :02:59. | |
rescued trying to make the very dangerous journey from Libya to | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
So far this year, over 80,000 people from different | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
The vast majority are not refugees fleeing war. | :03:09. | :03:19. | |
Sympathy for the migrants is wearing thin. | :03:20. | :03:31. | |
What is the solution to Italy's migrant crisis? | :03:32. | :03:44. | |
This town is one of those providing a haven for recent arrivals who | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
These young men of 16 and 17 are from the | :03:49. | :03:57. | |
country which makes up the second-largest number | :03:58. | :03:59. | |
of migrants to come to Italy this year. | :04:00. | :04:07. | |
The boys told me they never intended to come to Europe, that they had | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
asked people smugglers to take them to Libya. | :04:13. | :04:14. | |
But when they got there they became victims. | :04:15. | :04:30. | |
Bought and sold from one | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
boys finally got onto the boat for Italy. | :04:36. | :05:10. | |
Not everyone is welcoming to migrants coming to Europe. | :05:11. | :05:18. | |
This is a promo video from a group calling | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
themselves the Identitarian Movement. | :05:24. | :05:27. | |
With headquarters in Austria and France, they are a small | :05:28. | :05:30. | |
but growing group and their aim is to campaign against immigration. | :05:31. | :05:37. | |
This summer, the movement tried to stop an NSF rescue ship | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
The stunt ultimately failed but in a few weeks the | :05:42. | :05:48. | |
organisation raised over 70,000 euros and they've now chartered a | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
ship they say they will use to disrupt | :05:52. | :05:54. | |
trafficking and monitor the | :05:55. | :05:55. | |
Their Italy coordinator, Lorenzo Fiato, has flown down | :05:56. | :06:07. | |
We want to defend Europe from mass immigration | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
We think in every city where multiculturalism is present, | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
there is also radical Islam and violence regarding illegal immigrant | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
So you want European culture to just be white? | :06:23. | :06:31. | |
It is not just a matter of white, it is of | :06:32. | :06:33. | |
This is a different kind of migration, these | :06:34. | :06:36. | |
are thousands of illegal migrants coming to our shores, flooding into | :06:37. | :06:42. | |
Lorenzo's first goal is to combat those he sees as | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
You say you don't want the NGOs operating in those waters, you | :06:48. | :06:57. | |
They say if they do stop more lives will be lost. | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
I think this is false because these people | :07:03. | :07:04. | |
are coming to Europe, they | :07:05. | :07:06. | |
You cannot solve this problem by helping | :07:07. | :07:08. | |
human traffickers doing their job because they want to transport | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
illegal migrants saw you are just helping them. | :07:12. | :07:23. | |
The next day, Lorenzo is meeting some new Identitarian | :07:24. | :07:25. | |
Viviana and Claudia are university students from the | :07:26. | :07:33. | |
All these restaurants, they are owned by | :07:34. | :07:41. | |
Yes, most of them, especially these, they are | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
easy to do and the food is not so healthy. | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
There are a lot of them and they continue to appear. | :07:50. | :08:03. | |
They are literally replacing the people | :08:04. | :08:06. | |
We are always less and they are always | :08:07. | :08:09. | |
I wanted to find out why they had joined the | :08:10. | :08:16. | |
So what do Sicilians think of Lorenzo and his friends, their | :08:17. | :09:02. | |
Lorenzo sees the chance for a bit of PR and tells | :09:03. | :09:43. | |
There's been another rescue, this time by | :09:44. | :10:03. | |
An inflatable carrying 125 people has been located off Libya. | :10:04. | :10:10. | |
It is beginning to deflate, it is taking on water. | :10:11. | :10:16. | |
One is the mother of a 15-month-old baby. | :10:17. | :10:38. | |
The ship comes into the port of Sicily, where a | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
local prosecutor is investigating whether some NGO ships are | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
The NGO missions are coordinated by the Italian coastguard but the | :10:48. | :11:19. | |
country's legal system has launched two investigations into whether they | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
are saving lives or assisting illegal immigrant on their journey. | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
Do you feel that by rescuing these boats, | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
the NGOs are encouraging the | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
There are critics who have accused NGOs of | :11:38. | :12:03. | |
The NGOs argue that if they were not operating in the area, more lives | :12:04. | :12:12. | |
Back on the quay, the Save the Children ship is preparing | :12:13. | :12:26. | |
Since last September, the Vos Hestia has rescued more than | :12:27. | :12:37. | |
4000 migrants at sea, including over 500 children. | :12:38. | :12:40. | |
I asked the captain what he thought of claims NGOs were | :12:41. | :12:43. | |
acting as a taxi service to migrants and people smugglers. | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
I can see why people say that but the evidence is | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
You only have to see the craft that they put | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
them in to see how utterly ruthless and cynical they are. | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
They are pushing these people out, come what | :13:02. | :13:04. | |
may, and if we are not there, they will drown. | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
The solution is a political solution. | :13:10. | :13:19. | |
It is not within the remit of a humanitarian organisation to | :13:20. | :13:22. | |
solve this, ultimately, but in the meantime | :13:23. | :13:24. | |
this tragedy will go on | :13:25. | :13:25. | |
unfolding and we will continue to pick up the pieces and get the blame | :13:26. | :13:28. | |
for something only other people can solve. | :13:29. | :13:30. | |
It is estimated that this year, a quarter of a million migrants will | :13:31. | :13:42. | |
make the perilous journey from Libya to Italy. | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
Several thousand will drown on the way. | :13:46. | :13:52. | |
While this crisis continues, so, too, will criticism | :13:53. | :13:58. | |
of the humanitarian efforts, and the message of intolerance. | :13:59. | :14:04. | |
And you can see Our World: Sicily Overwhelmed on the BBC | :14:05. | :14:20. | |
News Channel this Sunday at 9:30pm, and also on iPlayer. | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
Immigration, of course, is an issue that has led to a rise | :14:27. | :14:29. | |
in support for nationalist parties right across the European Union. | :14:30. | :14:31. | |
One of them is the German Alternative Fur Deutschland. | :14:32. | :14:34. | |
Their deputy leader is Beatrix Von Storch. | :14:35. | :14:36. | |
She is also an MEP on the European Parliament's Justice ANd | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
I spoke to her in Strasbourg just before we came on air. | :14:42. | :14:47. | |
I asked if she would also want to stop charities sending out | :14:48. | :14:50. | |
The NGOs are doing what the illegal migrant companies are doing. | :14:51. | :15:00. | |
They are helping them out, they are shipping them over | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
and so they are responsible for even more to come in. | :15:06. | :15:07. | |
I think this has to be addressed clearly. | :15:08. | :15:09. | |
We have to stop them from doing this. | :15:10. | :15:11. | |
But I suspect if you did that, more migrants would drown | :15:12. | :15:14. | |
Is that a price that you're willing to pay? | :15:15. | :15:20. | |
No, I think the contrary will be right. | :15:21. | :15:22. | |
If the migrants know that they will not succeed in coming | :15:23. | :15:24. | |
over to the Mediterranean, they will not go | :15:25. | :15:26. | |
They go on the ships and they try to cross the sea | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
because they know they will be picked up easily after one kilometre | :15:32. | :15:34. | |
So if they know there is no way through, they will not go | :15:35. | :15:40. | |
on the boats and there will be less people dying. | :15:41. | :15:43. | |
So this is what I, what we say, stopping taking them in saves lives. | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
But I mean, many of the people with experience there say it's not | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
that they are being pulled out by the availability of rescue boats, | :15:52. | :15:54. | |
it's that they are being pushed out by really very unpleasant people | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
smugglers and they would still be coming anyway. | :15:59. | :16:01. | |
Now, are you sure that you're not basically just saying, "Let people | :16:02. | :16:04. | |
Because what we see is everywhere where the borders are closed, | :16:05. | :16:12. | |
When we stopped the Balkan borders, they stopped from coming | :16:13. | :16:19. | |
because they knew there's no way through any more. | :16:20. | :16:21. | |
And that's the same thing with the Mediterranean. | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
If they know there is no way through, they will stop coming over | :16:25. | :16:31. | |
and trying to reach the goal what they are going for. | :16:32. | :16:33. | |
And there will be one group of migrants, there will be, | :16:34. | :16:36. | |
for at least a month, maybe two months, migrants | :16:37. | :16:38. | |
coming and drowning, before the word gets back to those | :16:39. | :16:40. | |
in Libya or elsewhere, that you can't come any more | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
What the rescue boats should do, they should pick them up and bring | :16:45. | :16:51. | |
We don't want to have, to see people drowning | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
But they, to rescue them, you don't have to take them over, | :16:56. | :17:04. | |
basically from the Libyan border, through the whole of | :17:05. | :17:07. | |
the Mediterranean and then to the Italian border. | :17:08. | :17:09. | |
What has to be done is they have to be brought back to the Libyan | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
border and then they know they will not succeed and they will | :17:14. | :17:16. | |
Of course, we don't want to see the people drown. | :17:17. | :17:19. | |
OK, now, this is very interesting because one of the problems is, | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
to some extent, you can do that with Turkey. | :17:24. | :17:25. | |
If they come out of Turkey, you can send them back to Turkey. | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
The worry is is that Libya is a failed state. | :17:30. | :17:31. | |
You can't just send people back to Libya where maybe | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
Are you happy to send them back to what is a non-country, | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
a non-functioning country at the moment? | :17:42. | :17:44. | |
They are travelling to that country and they are waiting there for weeks | :17:45. | :17:51. | |
or months and then one day, they step on the boat | :17:52. | :17:54. | |
Saying they can stay there for months before they leave | :17:55. | :18:01. | |
and then we can't send them back because it's basically | :18:02. | :18:03. | |
a non-country, as you just said, you realise that there is something | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
Even if we were taking something like maybe 5 million | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
or 10 million every year, it wouldn't solve the problem | :18:14. | :18:16. | |
of billions down in Africa who are still willing to come. | :18:17. | :18:23. | |
So we have to address properly the problem and then we have | :18:24. | :18:26. | |
to realise that our resources are limited and then let's do | :18:27. | :18:29. | |
the best with our resources possible, what we can do and let | :18:30. | :18:32. | |
But it's not, it's not very helpful to bring some over and then | :18:33. | :18:39. | |
realising that we can't help them all in here. | :18:40. | :18:42. | |
So we want to help, yes, but we want to help close | :18:43. | :18:45. | |
Beatrix Von Storch, thank you so much for talking to us. | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
Thank you. Sure. | :18:51. | :19:03. | |
That is the view of the AFD in Germany. | :19:04. | :19:04. | |
Pasquale Dellacciano is the Italian ambassador to the UK. | :19:05. | :19:07. | |
Some people have said the rescue ships are like a taxi service for | :19:08. | :19:14. | |
illegal immigrant is to come to Italy. Is that your view? In certain | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
occasions, they may be. If they get too close to the Libyan sure, if | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
they operate within the Libyan territorial water, they can create a | :19:26. | :19:28. | |
poll factor. And this can be dangerous in the first place for | :19:29. | :19:31. | |
migrant because they tend to use traffickers, tend to use very | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
precarious vessels because they know that after a few miles, they will be | :19:38. | :19:45. | |
safe but we don't want to stop NGOs operating and helping us to rescue | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
more migrants. Why don't you want to stop them if you believe they may be | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
pulling people out? Do you want to stop them very close to Libya but | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
not in the Mediterranean? We want to adopt a code of conduct for them. | :19:59. | :20:02. | |
They should not operate within the Libyan territorial waters. We want | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
to know the source of their financing, who is financing them. We | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
want to know the cruise, which are the crews of those ships. How far is | :20:13. | :20:19. | |
the territorial water because you can imagine... 12 nautical miles. | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
People might easily drown in the 12 miles, hundreds, presumably. No, | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
because of course, if there is an alarm and our Coast Guard is the one | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
who is coordinating all the rescue efforts, you would send a vessel | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
within the territorial waters. What you shouldn't do is wait and, you | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
know, stationed within the territorial waters and just wait for | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
summer to arrive. OK, what about the points made by the AFD spokesperson | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
there, that you can rescue them and then take them back to the beach in | :20:53. | :20:59. | |
Libya? Problem solved. No, it is not solved because as you said, Libya is | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
a failed state. You can do this with Turkey but not with Libya. Explained | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
to the viewers why you can't do that with a failed state because she | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
makes the point, they have chosen to go to the failed state and so, you | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
can take you can go to the failed state but that is not something we | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
are going to take responsibility for? What would actually happen if | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
we took people back to Libya? Of course, you cannot guarantee that | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
their human rights will be respected so in order to guarantee this and | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
allow migrants to go back to Libya, you need to set up camps managed by | :21:38. | :21:44. | |
the relevant UN agencies. And this is one thing that we are asking the | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
European Union to do. We are asking the European Union to increase the | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
funding for the EU Africa fund so that we can help Libya and United | :21:55. | :22:00. | |
Nations to set up camps where migrants can be sent and be safe and | :22:01. | :22:06. | |
be sure... That their human rights will be respected. Got you. The EU | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
has not been great. What do you think of countries like Austria | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
putting troops on the border to stop migrants getting in? Unfortunately, | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
particularly in electoral times, people tend to play to the gallery. | :22:20. | :22:26. | |
So this is obviously done for internal, domestic reasons. But how | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
would you summarise the EU reaction because it does feel, as an external | :22:32. | :22:34. | |
observer, we don't have a border with Italy, that everyone is very | :22:35. | :22:38. | |
happy to say that this is Italy's problem rather than ours? Well it is | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
quite extraordinary that we have an international operation to save | :22:44. | :22:50. | |
lives and there is not one single migrant which is disembarked in a | :22:51. | :22:56. | |
port which is not Italian. I mean, we have received... So a Spanish | :22:57. | :22:59. | |
ship from an NGO could pick them up or take them to Spain... Or France, | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
or malt, or new share. The rule is you have to take them to a safe port | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
but how is it possible that the safe port is always necessarily Italian? | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
It is nearest, the Italian money is always the nearest. Not necessarily, | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
it could be to knew the water. There could be a way of sharing. -- it | :23:20. | :23:26. | |
could be Tunisia or Malta. Last question, do you worry about the | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
pressure on Italian civic Society of such large numbers of people coming | :23:31. | :23:36. | |
in who are really rootless in Italy... Of course. You saw what has | :23:37. | :23:42. | |
happened to the character of people, getting angry... Of course, we can't | :23:43. | :23:45. | |
cope any more. It is not a problem, of course, we will not say Italy | :23:46. | :23:53. | |
closes its ports, this is not what we're going to be but the ports will | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
be overwhelmed very quickly. We received nearly 600,000 people over | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
three years. It is the population of Manchester, all to Italy. And they | :24:02. | :24:08. | |
tend to stay there. You know, there is a relocation scheme. Out of | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
160,000 that had to move to some other European country, only 6600 | :24:13. | :24:18. | |
have left so far. A salutary thought. Thank you for joining us. | :24:19. | :24:21. | |
The Grenfell Tower fire struck an hour short | :24:22. | :24:23. | |
But it's a significant milestone because the Prime Minister did | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
promise on this programme that those who lost their homes would be | :24:29. | :24:31. | |
Here's the latest from the Grenfell Fire Response Team, | :24:32. | :24:40. | |
which has assessed the housing needs of 158 families, most of them | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
from the tower and some from Grenfell Walk nearby. | :24:45. | :24:47. | |
139 families have received offers for what the Response Team say | :24:48. | :24:56. | |
is "good quality" accommodation for at least a year. | :24:57. | :24:58. | |
But only nine of them have actually agreed to be rehoused | :24:59. | :25:01. | |
Some families do not wish to be contacted by the council, | :25:02. | :25:08. | |
which leaves 120 families in emergency accommodation, | :25:09. | :25:10. | |
seeking a more suitable offer of a place to call home. | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
Are the authorities letting the residents down | :25:16. | :25:18. | |
That is what the Labour group on Kensington and Chelsea Council has | :25:19. | :25:30. | |
said the night. They claim it is all to do with saving Theresa May's face | :25:31. | :25:33. | |
at Prime Minister's Questions tomorrow. | :25:34. | :25:35. | |
Newsnight's Rabiya Limbada went to meet one resident | :25:36. | :25:37. | |
who is still waiting for suitable accommodation. | :25:38. | :25:38. | |
This is the water coming through the vent in my room, you see? | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
It's a lot of water, pouring down through the window. | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
Basically, they were spraying a lot of water and from the living | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
room and from my room, I could see the flames | :25:51. | :25:52. | |
and I hoped, you know, I prayed that the flames would not | :25:53. | :25:55. | |
come inside because otherwise it would start the fire in the flat... | :25:56. | :25:58. | |
Antonio Roncollato had lived in Grenfell Tower since 1990. | :25:59. | :26:01. | |
He lived with his 26-year-old son on the tenth floor. | :26:02. | :26:04. | |
He was rescued from his smoke-filled flat by firefighters | :26:05. | :26:07. | |
He has been living in hotel rooms in west London | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
The council has offered me two provisional | :26:13. | :26:18. | |
One in Westminster and I declined because, erm, | :26:19. | :26:25. | |
I want to be near my work and near where my relatives | :26:26. | :26:36. | |
And the second one was a basement flat in Earl's Court, | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
near a very busy road and that was also not | :26:41. | :26:43. | |
Acceptable would be a two-bedroom flat, second, third floor, | :26:44. | :26:49. | |
fifth floor, obviously with a lift if, you know, that is the case. | :26:50. | :26:52. | |
You know, in the area where, possibly near where I work | :26:53. | :26:55. | |
Also for the fact that my son has gone through some trauma | :26:56. | :27:03. | |
because of what happened and he is looking for some | :27:04. | :27:06. | |
counselling as well and is receiving some. | :27:07. | :27:15. | |
And his mum and his auntie, you know, they want him to be | :27:16. | :27:18. | |
Just going back to the council, have they been in contact | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
with you regularly or are you having to chase them to understand | :27:24. | :27:25. | |
where your application is for new housing? | :27:26. | :27:27. | |
No, the only times they have been contacting me is to offer me those | :27:28. | :27:30. | |
The first time, about two weeks ago, in Westminster and the second time, | :27:31. | :27:40. | |
You will be aware, then, that again, there is, | :27:41. | :27:46. | |
there has been a lot of criticism about the way in which the council | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
have handled it, the way the government have handled | :27:51. | :27:52. | |
How would you assess how it has been handled? | :27:53. | :27:55. | |
Well, you see, this is unprecedented. | :27:56. | :27:57. | |
This is one of those things that does not happen, | :27:58. | :28:00. | |
It is something very, very big that has happened. | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
Maybe, you know, it is a little bit out of the hands of some people | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
in the local government, in the local authorities. | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
And obviously, from the top, you receive the order, "OK, | :28:14. | :28:16. | |
we've got to do this and we have to do that and we have | :28:17. | :28:19. | |
It's very difficult and, you know, it's very difficult, and, | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
What we ask is to be treated with respect, with sincerity, | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
with honesty and treat us like human beings. | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
There's been a lot of criticism of the council | :28:34. | :28:35. | |
that they haven't been able to provide suitable accommodation. | :28:36. | :28:37. | |
Do you accept that finding appropriate accommodation in this | :28:38. | :28:39. | |
I do, but you see, we did not ask any promises | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
OK, don't promise anything to us, that within three weeks, | :28:45. | :28:52. | |
We want a nice place that eventually, we will be calling home. | :28:53. | :28:58. | |
And we understand that it's very difficult. | :28:59. | :29:00. | |
There are not so many flats available, not so many, you know, | :29:01. | :29:03. | |
But be sincere, be honest with us but give us something, you know, | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
nice, that will match exactly the sort of comfort | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
We did ask if a member of the Cabinet | :29:13. | :29:21. | |
or the Shadow Cabinet was available this | :29:22. | :29:23. | |
The North Koreans say they have, for the first time, | :29:24. | :29:29. | |
successfully launched an intercontinental | :29:30. | :29:31. | |
They reportedly sent it up to a height of 2,800 kilometres, | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
which is seven times higher than the International | :29:36. | :29:37. | |
It flew for 39 minutes before it came down into the sea of Japan. | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
Interesting choice of day to do it - July 4th, US Independence Day. | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
Experts say this missile could in principle reach Alaska. | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
The US has called for a UN Security Council meeting tomorrow. | :29:52. | :29:58. | |
Earlier, I spoke to Dr Sue Mi Terry of Columbia University. | :29:59. | :30:00. | |
She is a Korea-watcher and until recently an intelligence | :30:01. | :30:03. | |
officer with both the CIA and the US National Security Council. | :30:04. | :30:06. | |
I spoke to her in the South Korean capital, Seoul. | :30:07. | :30:16. | |
I asked her where this leaves North Korea's nuclear capability. | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
Well, they are very close to perfecting their nuclear | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
programme, and what their final goal is, to be able to have | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
a nuclear-tipped intercontinental ballistic missile that could hit | :30:30. | :30:31. | |
Right now, if this missile can reach Alaska, we are very close | :30:32. | :30:34. | |
to the North having that capability to reach mainland United States. | :30:35. | :30:41. | |
For the US, it always seemed like the goal was, | :30:42. | :30:44. | |
you've got to destroy any weapon system in North Korea | :30:45. | :30:48. | |
Clearly, it's too late now, isn't it? | :30:49. | :30:55. | |
Clearly, we've been working for three... | :30:56. | :30:56. | |
US administrations have been working towards this goal of ending | :30:57. | :30:59. | |
North Korea's nuclear programme and clearly it's too late. | :31:00. | :31:02. | |
I met North Koreans earlier this month and they've said we are never | :31:03. | :31:05. | |
giving up nuclear weapons, we are so close to perfecting | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
the nuclear weapons programme, we are very close to it, | :31:10. | :31:12. | |
And you don't think there's any solution from talking | :31:13. | :31:21. | |
to the North Koreans, discussing with them, diplomacy? | :31:22. | :31:23. | |
There is no political way of persuading them out of that goal? | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
Earlier this month, I tried to see if there was any | :31:28. | :31:33. | |
room for negotiations, but the North Koreans were adamant | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
that if you're talking about de-nuclearisation | :31:39. | :31:40. | |
or their nuclear programme, that subject is off the table. | :31:41. | :31:42. | |
They are very close to concluding their programme and achieving | :31:43. | :31:52. | |
this final deterrent against the United States | :31:53. | :31:53. | |
Nuclear weapons are no longer negotiable. | :31:54. | :31:56. | |
What can the US, the world do in light of this clear threat? | :31:57. | :32:06. | |
The Trump administration is now finding out, Mr Trump is finding | :32:07. | :32:09. | |
out why this is such a difficult problem. | :32:10. | :32:11. | |
There are not a whole lot of options despite what he says, | :32:12. | :32:14. | |
Really, we are now looking at more sanctions, enhancing, | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
broadening sanctions, and trying to pursue secondary | :32:19. | :32:20. | |
sanctions against Chinese banks and entities that do | :32:21. | :32:22. | |
lots of business with North Korea to see if China can do more | :32:23. | :32:25. | |
And moving into deterrents, there are not a whole lot | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
Do you imagine North Korea might ever use its weapons, | :32:31. | :32:37. | |
They are not going to just pre-emptively use it. | :32:38. | :32:44. | |
They know it would mean the end of the regime and the end | :32:45. | :32:47. | |
But if they thought we are entering regime change mode, or if military | :32:48. | :32:54. | |
conflict was on the way, I can absolutely see them using it. | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
In fact, the North Koreans have told me they will use it. | :32:59. | :33:02. | |
They did not spend years of hardship pursuing this nuclear weapons | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
programme just to perish without using them. | :33:07. | :33:09. | |
and talking to but not an altogether happy message. | :33:10. | :33:24. | |
It is Pride in London this weekend, the main celebration of all things | :33:25. | :33:27. | |
Rainbow flags festoon shops and offices in the city, | :33:28. | :33:30. | |
particularly those on the route of the parade that'll be | :33:31. | :33:33. | |
It is fair to say that in the course of a lifetime, social | :33:34. | :33:37. | |
attitudes towards homosexuality have changed very dramatically. | :33:38. | :33:39. | |
After all, 50 years ago on this very day, | :33:40. | :33:41. | |
parliament was busy debating whether it should be decriminalised. | :33:42. | :33:43. | |
Well, that lifetime of change has been documented in a new memoir | :33:44. | :33:46. | |
from a man who's been at the centre of the battle for gay acceptance | :33:47. | :33:49. | |
for decades over in the US, that has obviously inspired much | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
From the '60s, San Francisco was beginning to lead the world | :33:55. | :34:04. | |
By the '70s, it was the unrivalled global gay capital. | :34:05. | :34:11. | |
I think what we should do, what happens is what | :34:12. | :34:13. | |
In 1977, Harvey Milk became the city's first openly | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
But even there, progress was deeply painful. | :34:18. | :34:26. | |
Both Mayor Mosconi and supervisor Harvey milk have | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
The killing of America's most prominent gay politician | :34:31. | :34:39. | |
and the lenient sentencing of his killer caused shock, | :34:40. | :34:42. | |
triggered riots and it helped inspire one of Milk's proteges, | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
Cleve Jones, into a life of political activism. | :34:48. | :34:52. | |
I think, you know, this idea that, erm, gays are going to take over | :34:53. | :34:58. | |
I, I think it's amusing when I hear that because they say when, | :34:59. | :35:04. | |
when gay people walk down the street holding hands, instead | :35:05. | :35:07. | |
of taking that as a simple display of affection, | :35:08. | :35:09. | |
it is this horrendous thing we are flaunting. | :35:10. | :35:12. | |
In the '80s, as AIDS took so many gay lives, | :35:13. | :35:14. | |
it was Jones that conceived of the AIDS Memorial Quilt, | :35:15. | :35:18. | |
the world's largest piece of community folk art, | :35:19. | :35:21. | |
To remember the dead, we have sewn panels onto this ever-growing quilt. | :35:22. | :35:30. | |
A television miniseries partly based on Jones' memoir, When We Rise, | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
was released in the US earlier this year. | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
What happened in the US had its effect here. | :35:39. | :35:46. | |
The Pride march in London in 1979 was then the largest assembly of gay | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
But four decades on, it's blossomed into something | :35:51. | :35:58. | |
These days, corporate and official Britain is literally keen | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
I spoke to Cleve Jones and asked him if, as a teenager, | :36:03. | :36:11. | |
he could ever have imagined things changing so much. | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
No, not at all and I don't think any of us did. | :36:16. | :36:18. | |
In fact, I would say that many of the things we've | :36:19. | :36:21. | |
accomplished weren't even on our wish list. | :36:22. | :36:23. | |
Marriage equality certainly was something I did not | :36:24. | :36:25. | |
What's the lesson on how to campaign? | :36:26. | :36:33. | |
You worked with one of the best, Harvey Milk, who was later | :36:34. | :36:36. | |
assassinated, of course, as a supervisor on the San Francisco City | :36:37. | :36:39. | |
But you saw how you got change through campaigning. | :36:40. | :36:48. | |
One of the things that Harvey kept saying | :36:49. | :36:51. | |
over and over was that everyone had to come out. | :36:52. | :36:54. | |
He was mistrustful of media campaigns. | :36:55. | :36:55. | |
He was a believer in retail politics, going | :36:56. | :36:58. | |
And even today, I work primarily within | :36:59. | :37:01. | |
the labour movement in the United States | :37:02. | :37:02. | |
today and even today, I see | :37:03. | :37:04. | |
the power of storytelling, as we bring together workers | :37:05. | :37:12. | |
of different ethnicities and genders and | :37:13. | :37:14. | |
backgrounds to fight the good fight for the, you know, | :37:15. | :37:16. | |
workers are always there on the marches, | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
The left, of course, captured and supported the cause | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
Has that made you innately left-wing? | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
Is the LGBT cause innately a left-wing one, do you | :37:30. | :37:32. | |
No, I wouldn't say that but I would say that I have always | :37:33. | :37:39. | |
believed in the larger struggle and I have | :37:40. | :37:41. | |
always been grateful that the | :37:42. | :37:42. | |
We had to fight a long time to be included. | :37:43. | :37:47. | |
We had to fight the Democratic party a long time to be included in the | :37:48. | :37:51. | |
platform, so all of these are advances. | :37:52. | :37:53. | |
celebrate every time a Republican comes around. | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
I would say that neither the Liberals nor the | :37:58. | :38:00. | |
Conservatives own this issue or my community. | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
The book, the memoir of your life, you've kept everything | :38:06. | :38:07. | |
You've had a lot of love in your life. | :38:08. | :38:12. | |
People reading it will learn about the train journeys | :38:13. | :38:14. | |
where you meet somebody or walking through the cemetery and you meet | :38:15. | :38:17. | |
What do you think the straights will think when they read | :38:18. | :38:20. | |
just about how many, and how easily you have found it to have | :38:21. | :38:24. | |
Well, I've been delighted by the response from | :38:25. | :38:27. | |
I was a little afraid that the only people who would read | :38:28. | :38:36. | |
it were old, white, gay men who went through it with me. | :38:37. | :38:39. | |
And I think today, people are desperate for | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
strategies and answers and encouragement and hope for their | :38:44. | :38:45. | |
Some of them are finding it in my book and that is just a | :38:46. | :38:50. | |
Do you think the position the LGBT community has | :38:51. | :38:53. | |
arrived at in terms of acceptance in most | :38:54. | :38:55. | |
Western countries now, do you | :38:56. | :38:57. | |
I mean in the United States, President Trump, | :38:58. | :39:01. | |
Honestly, I would have to say that yes, everything LGBT people have won | :39:02. | :39:12. | |
But I would say that that's not even my greatest concern. | :39:13. | :39:19. | |
I think that our president has turned so many things upside down, | :39:20. | :39:28. | |
As a member of the LGBT community I'm concerned | :39:29. | :39:34. | |
but if I was living in Poland or Latvia or Lithuania, I think I | :39:35. | :39:37. | |
We are in uncharted waters and really, | :39:38. | :39:43. | |
quite frankly, I think anything could happen and I find it | :39:44. | :39:46. | |
I hope to continue to change the hearts and minds of ordinary | :39:47. | :39:59. | |
people so that they can, you know, accept and love their children. | :40:00. | :40:01. | |
We still have an appallingly high suicide rate among gay and | :40:02. | :40:04. | |
It makes me very sad because I used to be one of | :40:05. | :40:10. | |
those children and was considering suicide. | :40:11. | :40:11. | |
Do you ever see a day when we won't... | :40:12. | :40:17. | |
When it will be boring to read about a gay struggle? | :40:18. | :40:19. | |
Well, that's why I left all the sex in! | :40:20. | :40:22. | |
Cleve Jones, thank you very much indeed. | :40:23. | :40:27. | |
Before we go, if you watched Doctor Who on Saturday, | :40:28. | :40:33. | |
there were some pretty heavy meta hints that the next | :40:34. | :40:36. | |
Well, you know how I'm usually all about women and... | :40:37. | :40:44. | |
Well, bookies' favourite Phoebe Waller-Bridge of Fleabag fame | :40:45. | :41:03. | |
has denied she's going to be the first female Doctor. | :41:04. | :41:06. | |
But then, Joanna Lumley has already done the role, so that | :41:07. | :41:10. | |
And in a recent interview for Gold Derby on Youtube, | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
Phoebe may already have given the game away. | :41:15. | :41:16. | |
Not allowed to say anything about that one way or the other. | :41:17. | :41:28. | |
Warmer weather spreads over the UK. Parts of southern England getting | :41:29. | :41:56. | |
close to 30. A lot of | :41:57. | :41:58. |