04/07/2017 Newsnight


04/07/2017

A special report on migrants crossing the sea to Italy. Plus Grenfell, Korea, Gay Pride and the new Doctor Who (maybe).


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Transcript


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It's summer, and it is the season for the next wave of desperate

:00:08.:00:10.

migrants to try and cross the Mediterranean to Europe.

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In parts of Italy the strain is beginning to show.

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We want to divide Europe from immigration and multiculturalism.

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NGOs trying to save migrants from their precarious

:00:29.:00:31.

boats are being accused of facilitating people smuggling.

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And there's new friction between European countries.

:00:34.:00:34.

if Europe couldn't handle migration effectively two years ago, or last

:00:35.:00:37.

The government promised to rehouse all the Grenfell survivors.

:00:38.:00:45.

But are residents accepting the option being offered to them?

:00:46.:00:50.

The second one was near a very busy road and that was not sitting my

:00:51.:00:55.

needs. Gay pride has come a long way from

:00:56.:01:02.

THIS in the '70s to Pride in 2016. As this weekend's march approaches,

:01:03.:01:06.

we ask a veteran of the LGBT movement what it took to get

:01:07.:01:09.

from there to here. Hello, Europe, again, predictably,

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finds itself enmeshed in arguments It is true that last year,

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it did manage a deal with Turkey, that closed the eastern route,

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from say Syria to Greece and beyond. But that still leaves tens

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of thousands of people this year, taking the route up

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from Libya into Italy. Those numbers cause

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friction in Italy itself, Today Austria announced that it's

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ready to deploy troops And there's a new focus

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to the argument now: the role of NGOs rescuing migrants

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from the mediterranean. They face accusations they're

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encouraging people smuggling. Two thousand have died this year -

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Looking at the numbers it seems For desperate people it can be

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tempting to cross because the bulk survive. About 97%.

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We have an extended report, now from Yalda Hakim

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whose been in Sicily, which is on the frontline

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A flimsy inflatable dinghy full of migrants is adrift in the open

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sea, around 30 miles from the Libyan coast.

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They have no fuel, no water, and no food.

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They've been detected by a Spanish NGO.

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Most of these migrants have never seen the ocean.

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After hours at sea in the sweltering heat, they are

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This boat has just arrived with 500 migrants who been

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rescued trying to make the very dangerous journey from Libya to

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So far this year, over 80,000 people from different

:03:04.:03:08.

The vast majority are not refugees fleeing war.

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Sympathy for the migrants is wearing thin.

:03:20.:03:31.

What is the solution to Italy's migrant crisis?

:03:32.:03:44.

This town is one of those providing a haven for recent arrivals who

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These young men of 16 and 17 are from the

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country which makes up the second-largest number

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of migrants to come to Italy this year.

:04:00.:04:07.

The boys told me they never intended to come to Europe, that they had

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asked people smugglers to take them to Libya.

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But when they got there they became victims.

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Bought and sold from one

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boys finally got onto the boat for Italy.

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Not everyone is welcoming to migrants coming to Europe.

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This is a promo video from a group calling

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themselves the Identitarian Movement.

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With headquarters in Austria and France, they are a small

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but growing group and their aim is to campaign against immigration.

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This summer, the movement tried to stop an NSF rescue ship

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The stunt ultimately failed but in a few weeks the

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organisation raised over 70,000 euros and they've now chartered a

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ship they say they will use to disrupt

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trafficking and monitor the

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Their Italy coordinator, Lorenzo Fiato, has flown down

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We want to defend Europe from mass immigration

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We think in every city where multiculturalism is present,

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there is also radical Islam and violence regarding illegal immigrant

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So you want European culture to just be white?

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It is not just a matter of white, it is of

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This is a different kind of migration, these

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are thousands of illegal migrants coming to our shores, flooding into

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Lorenzo's first goal is to combat those he sees as

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You say you don't want the NGOs operating in those waters, you

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They say if they do stop more lives will be lost.

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I think this is false because these people

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are coming to Europe, they

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You cannot solve this problem by helping

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human traffickers doing their job because they want to transport

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illegal migrants saw you are just helping them.

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The next day, Lorenzo is meeting some new Identitarian

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Viviana and Claudia are university students from the

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All these restaurants, they are owned by

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Yes, most of them, especially these, they are

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easy to do and the food is not so healthy.

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There are a lot of them and they continue to appear.

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They are literally replacing the people

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We are always less and they are always

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I wanted to find out why they had joined the

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So what do Sicilians think of Lorenzo and his friends, their

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Lorenzo sees the chance for a bit of PR and tells

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There's been another rescue, this time by

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An inflatable carrying 125 people has been located off Libya.

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It is beginning to deflate, it is taking on water.

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One is the mother of a 15-month-old baby.

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The ship comes into the port of Sicily, where a

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local prosecutor is investigating whether some NGO ships are

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The NGO missions are coordinated by the Italian coastguard but the

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country's legal system has launched two investigations into whether they

:11:20.:11:24.

are saving lives or assisting illegal immigrant on their journey.

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Do you feel that by rescuing these boats,

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the NGOs are encouraging the

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There are critics who have accused NGOs of

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The NGOs argue that if they were not operating in the area, more lives

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Back on the quay, the Save the Children ship is preparing

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Since last September, the Vos Hestia has rescued more than

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4000 migrants at sea, including over 500 children.

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I asked the captain what he thought of claims NGOs were

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acting as a taxi service to migrants and people smugglers.

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I can see why people say that but the evidence is

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You only have to see the craft that they put

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them in to see how utterly ruthless and cynical they are.

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They are pushing these people out, come what

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may, and if we are not there, they will drown.

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The solution is a political solution.

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It is not within the remit of a humanitarian organisation to

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solve this, ultimately, but in the meantime

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this tragedy will go on

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unfolding and we will continue to pick up the pieces and get the blame

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for something only other people can solve.

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It is estimated that this year, a quarter of a million migrants will

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make the perilous journey from Libya to Italy.

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Several thousand will drown on the way.

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While this crisis continues, so, too, will criticism

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of the humanitarian efforts, and the message of intolerance.

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And you can see Our World: Sicily Overwhelmed on the BBC

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News Channel this Sunday at 9:30pm, and also on iPlayer.

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Immigration, of course, is an issue that has led to a rise

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in support for nationalist parties right across the European Union.

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One of them is the German Alternative Fur Deutschland.

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Their deputy leader is Beatrix Von Storch.

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She is also an MEP on the European Parliament's Justice ANd

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I spoke to her in Strasbourg just before we came on air.

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I asked if she would also want to stop charities sending out

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The NGOs are doing what the illegal migrant companies are doing.

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They are helping them out, they are shipping them over

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and so they are responsible for even more to come in.

:15:06.:15:07.

I think this has to be addressed clearly.

:15:08.:15:09.

We have to stop them from doing this.

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But I suspect if you did that, more migrants would drown

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Is that a price that you're willing to pay?

:15:15.:15:20.

No, I think the contrary will be right.

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If the migrants know that they will not succeed in coming

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over to the Mediterranean, they will not go

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They go on the ships and they try to cross the sea

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because they know they will be picked up easily after one kilometre

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So if they know there is no way through, they will not go

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on the boats and there will be less people dying.

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So this is what I, what we say, stopping taking them in saves lives.

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But I mean, many of the people with experience there say it's not

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that they are being pulled out by the availability of rescue boats,

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it's that they are being pushed out by really very unpleasant people

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smugglers and they would still be coming anyway.

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Now, are you sure that you're not basically just saying, "Let people

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Because what we see is everywhere where the borders are closed,

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When we stopped the Balkan borders, they stopped from coming

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because they knew there's no way through any more.

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And that's the same thing with the Mediterranean.

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If they know there is no way through, they will stop coming over

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and trying to reach the goal what they are going for.

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And there will be one group of migrants, there will be,

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for at least a month, maybe two months, migrants

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coming and drowning, before the word gets back to those

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in Libya or elsewhere, that you can't come any more

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What the rescue boats should do, they should pick them up and bring

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We don't want to have, to see people drowning

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But they, to rescue them, you don't have to take them over,

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basically from the Libyan border, through the whole of

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the Mediterranean and then to the Italian border.

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What has to be done is they have to be brought back to the Libyan

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border and then they know they will not succeed and they will

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Of course, we don't want to see the people drown.

:17:17.:17:19.

OK, now, this is very interesting because one of the problems is,

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to some extent, you can do that with Turkey.

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If they come out of Turkey, you can send them back to Turkey.

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The worry is is that Libya is a failed state.

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You can't just send people back to Libya where maybe

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Are you happy to send them back to what is a non-country,

:17:37.:17:41.

a non-functioning country at the moment?

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They are travelling to that country and they are waiting there for weeks

:17:45.:17:51.

or months and then one day, they step on the boat

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Saying they can stay there for months before they leave

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and then we can't send them back because it's basically

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a non-country, as you just said, you realise that there is something

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Even if we were taking something like maybe 5 million

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or 10 million every year, it wouldn't solve the problem

:18:14.:18:16.

of billions down in Africa who are still willing to come.

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So we have to address properly the problem and then we have

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to realise that our resources are limited and then let's do

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the best with our resources possible, what we can do and let

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But it's not, it's not very helpful to bring some over and then

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realising that we can't help them all in here.

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So we want to help, yes, but we want to help close

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Beatrix Von Storch, thank you so much for talking to us.

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Thank you. Sure.

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That is the view of the AFD in Germany.

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Pasquale Dellacciano is the Italian ambassador to the UK.

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Some people have said the rescue ships are like a taxi service for

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illegal immigrant is to come to Italy. Is that your view? In certain

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occasions, they may be. If they get too close to the Libyan sure, if

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they operate within the Libyan territorial water, they can create a

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poll factor. And this can be dangerous in the first place for

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migrant because they tend to use traffickers, tend to use very

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precarious vessels because they know that after a few miles, they will be

:19:38.:19:45.

safe but we don't want to stop NGOs operating and helping us to rescue

:19:46.:19:49.

more migrants. Why don't you want to stop them if you believe they may be

:19:50.:19:53.

pulling people out? Do you want to stop them very close to Libya but

:19:54.:19:58.

not in the Mediterranean? We want to adopt a code of conduct for them.

:19:59.:20:02.

They should not operate within the Libyan territorial waters. We want

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to know the source of their financing, who is financing them. We

:20:08.:20:12.

want to know the cruise, which are the crews of those ships. How far is

:20:13.:20:19.

the territorial water because you can imagine... 12 nautical miles.

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People might easily drown in the 12 miles, hundreds, presumably. No,

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because of course, if there is an alarm and our Coast Guard is the one

:20:30.:20:33.

who is coordinating all the rescue efforts, you would send a vessel

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within the territorial waters. What you shouldn't do is wait and, you

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know, stationed within the territorial waters and just wait for

:20:43.:20:46.

summer to arrive. OK, what about the points made by the AFD spokesperson

:20:47.:20:52.

there, that you can rescue them and then take them back to the beach in

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Libya? Problem solved. No, it is not solved because as you said, Libya is

:21:00.:21:04.

a failed state. You can do this with Turkey but not with Libya. Explained

:21:05.:21:08.

to the viewers why you can't do that with a failed state because she

:21:09.:21:12.

makes the point, they have chosen to go to the failed state and so, you

:21:13.:21:17.

can take you can go to the failed state but that is not something we

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are going to take responsibility for? What would actually happen if

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we took people back to Libya? Of course, you cannot guarantee that

:21:28.:21:32.

their human rights will be respected so in order to guarantee this and

:21:33.:21:37.

allow migrants to go back to Libya, you need to set up camps managed by

:21:38.:21:44.

the relevant UN agencies. And this is one thing that we are asking the

:21:45.:21:49.

European Union to do. We are asking the European Union to increase the

:21:50.:21:54.

funding for the EU Africa fund so that we can help Libya and United

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Nations to set up camps where migrants can be sent and be safe and

:22:01.:22:06.

be sure... That their human rights will be respected. Got you. The EU

:22:07.:22:11.

has not been great. What do you think of countries like Austria

:22:12.:22:15.

putting troops on the border to stop migrants getting in? Unfortunately,

:22:16.:22:19.

particularly in electoral times, people tend to play to the gallery.

:22:20.:22:26.

So this is obviously done for internal, domestic reasons. But how

:22:27.:22:31.

would you summarise the EU reaction because it does feel, as an external

:22:32.:22:34.

observer, we don't have a border with Italy, that everyone is very

:22:35.:22:38.

happy to say that this is Italy's problem rather than ours? Well it is

:22:39.:22:43.

quite extraordinary that we have an international operation to save

:22:44.:22:50.

lives and there is not one single migrant which is disembarked in a

:22:51.:22:56.

port which is not Italian. I mean, we have received... So a Spanish

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ship from an NGO could pick them up or take them to Spain... Or France,

:23:00.:23:04.

or malt, or new share. The rule is you have to take them to a safe port

:23:05.:23:09.

but how is it possible that the safe port is always necessarily Italian?

:23:10.:23:14.

It is nearest, the Italian money is always the nearest. Not necessarily,

:23:15.:23:19.

it could be to knew the water. There could be a way of sharing. -- it

:23:20.:23:26.

could be Tunisia or Malta. Last question, do you worry about the

:23:27.:23:30.

pressure on Italian civic Society of such large numbers of people coming

:23:31.:23:36.

in who are really rootless in Italy... Of course. You saw what has

:23:37.:23:42.

happened to the character of people, getting angry... Of course, we can't

:23:43.:23:45.

cope any more. It is not a problem, of course, we will not say Italy

:23:46.:23:53.

closes its ports, this is not what we're going to be but the ports will

:23:54.:23:57.

be overwhelmed very quickly. We received nearly 600,000 people over

:23:58.:24:01.

three years. It is the population of Manchester, all to Italy. And they

:24:02.:24:08.

tend to stay there. You know, there is a relocation scheme. Out of

:24:09.:24:12.

160,000 that had to move to some other European country, only 6600

:24:13.:24:18.

have left so far. A salutary thought. Thank you for joining us.

:24:19.:24:21.

The Grenfell Tower fire struck an hour short

:24:22.:24:23.

But it's a significant milestone because the Prime Minister did

:24:24.:24:28.

promise on this programme that those who lost their homes would be

:24:29.:24:31.

Here's the latest from the Grenfell Fire Response Team,

:24:32.:24:40.

which has assessed the housing needs of 158 families, most of them

:24:41.:24:44.

from the tower and some from Grenfell Walk nearby.

:24:45.:24:47.

139 families have received offers for what the Response Team say

:24:48.:24:56.

is "good quality" accommodation for at least a year.

:24:57.:24:58.

But only nine of them have actually agreed to be rehoused

:24:59.:25:01.

Some families do not wish to be contacted by the council,

:25:02.:25:08.

which leaves 120 families in emergency accommodation,

:25:09.:25:10.

seeking a more suitable offer of a place to call home.

:25:11.:25:15.

Are the authorities letting the residents down

:25:16.:25:18.

That is what the Labour group on Kensington and Chelsea Council has

:25:19.:25:30.

said the night. They claim it is all to do with saving Theresa May's face

:25:31.:25:33.

at Prime Minister's Questions tomorrow.

:25:34.:25:35.

Newsnight's Rabiya Limbada went to meet one resident

:25:36.:25:37.

who is still waiting for suitable accommodation.

:25:38.:25:38.

This is the water coming through the vent in my room, you see?

:25:39.:25:42.

It's a lot of water, pouring down through the window.

:25:43.:25:46.

Basically, they were spraying a lot of water and from the living

:25:47.:25:50.

room and from my room, I could see the flames

:25:51.:25:52.

and I hoped, you know, I prayed that the flames would not

:25:53.:25:55.

come inside because otherwise it would start the fire in the flat...

:25:56.:25:58.

Antonio Roncollato had lived in Grenfell Tower since 1990.

:25:59.:26:01.

He lived with his 26-year-old son on the tenth floor.

:26:02.:26:04.

He was rescued from his smoke-filled flat by firefighters

:26:05.:26:07.

He has been living in hotel rooms in west London

:26:08.:26:12.

The council has offered me two provisional

:26:13.:26:18.

One in Westminster and I declined because, erm,

:26:19.:26:25.

I want to be near my work and near where my relatives

:26:26.:26:36.

And the second one was a basement flat in Earl's Court,

:26:37.:26:40.

near a very busy road and that was also not

:26:41.:26:43.

Acceptable would be a two-bedroom flat, second, third floor,

:26:44.:26:49.

fifth floor, obviously with a lift if, you know, that is the case.

:26:50.:26:52.

You know, in the area where, possibly near where I work

:26:53.:26:55.

Also for the fact that my son has gone through some trauma

:26:56.:27:03.

because of what happened and he is looking for some

:27:04.:27:06.

counselling as well and is receiving some.

:27:07.:27:15.

And his mum and his auntie, you know, they want him to be

:27:16.:27:18.

Just going back to the council, have they been in contact

:27:19.:27:23.

with you regularly or are you having to chase them to understand

:27:24.:27:25.

where your application is for new housing?

:27:26.:27:27.

No, the only times they have been contacting me is to offer me those

:27:28.:27:30.

The first time, about two weeks ago, in Westminster and the second time,

:27:31.:27:40.

You will be aware, then, that again, there is,

:27:41.:27:46.

there has been a lot of criticism about the way in which the council

:27:47.:27:50.

have handled it, the way the government have handled

:27:51.:27:52.

How would you assess how it has been handled?

:27:53.:27:55.

Well, you see, this is unprecedented.

:27:56.:27:57.

This is one of those things that does not happen,

:27:58.:28:00.

It is something very, very big that has happened.

:28:01.:28:05.

Maybe, you know, it is a little bit out of the hands of some people

:28:06.:28:09.

in the local government, in the local authorities.

:28:10.:28:13.

And obviously, from the top, you receive the order, "OK,

:28:14.:28:16.

we've got to do this and we have to do that and we have

:28:17.:28:19.

It's very difficult and, you know, it's very difficult, and,

:28:20.:28:23.

What we ask is to be treated with respect, with sincerity,

:28:24.:28:28.

with honesty and treat us like human beings.

:28:29.:28:33.

There's been a lot of criticism of the council

:28:34.:28:35.

that they haven't been able to provide suitable accommodation.

:28:36.:28:37.

Do you accept that finding appropriate accommodation in this

:28:38.:28:39.

I do, but you see, we did not ask any promises

:28:40.:28:44.

OK, don't promise anything to us, that within three weeks,

:28:45.:28:52.

We want a nice place that eventually, we will be calling home.

:28:53.:28:58.

And we understand that it's very difficult.

:28:59.:29:00.

There are not so many flats available, not so many, you know,

:29:01.:29:03.

But be sincere, be honest with us but give us something, you know,

:29:04.:29:08.

nice, that will match exactly the sort of comfort

:29:09.:29:12.

We did ask if a member of the Cabinet

:29:13.:29:21.

or the Shadow Cabinet was available this

:29:22.:29:23.

The North Koreans say they have, for the first time,

:29:24.:29:29.

successfully launched an intercontinental

:29:30.:29:31.

They reportedly sent it up to a height of 2,800 kilometres,

:29:32.:29:35.

which is seven times higher than the International

:29:36.:29:37.

It flew for 39 minutes before it came down into the sea of Japan.

:29:38.:29:42.

Interesting choice of day to do it - July 4th, US Independence Day.

:29:43.:29:47.

Experts say this missile could in principle reach Alaska.

:29:48.:29:51.

The US has called for a UN Security Council meeting tomorrow.

:29:52.:29:58.

Earlier, I spoke to Dr Sue Mi Terry of Columbia University.

:29:59.:30:00.

She is a Korea-watcher and until recently an intelligence

:30:01.:30:03.

officer with both the CIA and the US National Security Council.

:30:04.:30:06.

I spoke to her in the South Korean capital, Seoul.

:30:07.:30:16.

I asked her where this leaves North Korea's nuclear capability.

:30:17.:30:21.

Well, they are very close to perfecting their nuclear

:30:22.:30:25.

programme, and what their final goal is, to be able to have

:30:26.:30:29.

a nuclear-tipped intercontinental ballistic missile that could hit

:30:30.:30:31.

Right now, if this missile can reach Alaska, we are very close

:30:32.:30:34.

to the North having that capability to reach mainland United States.

:30:35.:30:41.

For the US, it always seemed like the goal was,

:30:42.:30:44.

you've got to destroy any weapon system in North Korea

:30:45.:30:48.

Clearly, it's too late now, isn't it?

:30:49.:30:55.

Clearly, we've been working for three...

:30:56.:30:56.

US administrations have been working towards this goal of ending

:30:57.:30:59.

North Korea's nuclear programme and clearly it's too late.

:31:00.:31:02.

I met North Koreans earlier this month and they've said we are never

:31:03.:31:05.

giving up nuclear weapons, we are so close to perfecting

:31:06.:31:09.

the nuclear weapons programme, we are very close to it,

:31:10.:31:12.

And you don't think there's any solution from talking

:31:13.:31:21.

to the North Koreans, discussing with them, diplomacy?

:31:22.:31:23.

There is no political way of persuading them out of that goal?

:31:24.:31:27.

Earlier this month, I tried to see if there was any

:31:28.:31:33.

room for negotiations, but the North Koreans were adamant

:31:34.:31:38.

that if you're talking about de-nuclearisation

:31:39.:31:40.

or their nuclear programme, that subject is off the table.

:31:41.:31:42.

They are very close to concluding their programme and achieving

:31:43.:31:52.

this final deterrent against the United States

:31:53.:31:53.

Nuclear weapons are no longer negotiable.

:31:54.:31:56.

What can the US, the world do in light of this clear threat?

:31:57.:32:06.

The Trump administration is now finding out, Mr Trump is finding

:32:07.:32:09.

out why this is such a difficult problem.

:32:10.:32:11.

There are not a whole lot of options despite what he says,

:32:12.:32:14.

Really, we are now looking at more sanctions, enhancing,

:32:15.:32:18.

broadening sanctions, and trying to pursue secondary

:32:19.:32:20.

sanctions against Chinese banks and entities that do

:32:21.:32:22.

lots of business with North Korea to see if China can do more

:32:23.:32:25.

And moving into deterrents, there are not a whole lot

:32:26.:32:30.

Do you imagine North Korea might ever use its weapons,

:32:31.:32:37.

They are not going to just pre-emptively use it.

:32:38.:32:44.

They know it would mean the end of the regime and the end

:32:45.:32:47.

But if they thought we are entering regime change mode, or if military

:32:48.:32:54.

conflict was on the way, I can absolutely see them using it.

:32:55.:32:58.

In fact, the North Koreans have told me they will use it.

:32:59.:33:02.

They did not spend years of hardship pursuing this nuclear weapons

:33:03.:33:06.

programme just to perish without using them.

:33:07.:33:09.

and talking to but not an altogether happy message.

:33:10.:33:24.

It is Pride in London this weekend, the main celebration of all things

:33:25.:33:27.

Rainbow flags festoon shops and offices in the city,

:33:28.:33:30.

particularly those on the route of the parade that'll be

:33:31.:33:33.

It is fair to say that in the course of a lifetime, social

:33:34.:33:37.

attitudes towards homosexuality have changed very dramatically.

:33:38.:33:39.

After all, 50 years ago on this very day,

:33:40.:33:41.

parliament was busy debating whether it should be decriminalised.

:33:42.:33:43.

Well, that lifetime of change has been documented in a new memoir

:33:44.:33:46.

from a man who's been at the centre of the battle for gay acceptance

:33:47.:33:49.

for decades over in the US, that has obviously inspired much

:33:50.:33:54.

From the '60s, San Francisco was beginning to lead the world

:33:55.:34:04.

By the '70s, it was the unrivalled global gay capital.

:34:05.:34:11.

I think what we should do, what happens is what

:34:12.:34:13.

In 1977, Harvey Milk became the city's first openly

:34:14.:34:17.

But even there, progress was deeply painful.

:34:18.:34:26.

Both Mayor Mosconi and supervisor Harvey milk have

:34:27.:34:30.

The killing of America's most prominent gay politician

:34:31.:34:39.

and the lenient sentencing of his killer caused shock,

:34:40.:34:42.

triggered riots and it helped inspire one of Milk's proteges,

:34:43.:34:47.

Cleve Jones, into a life of political activism.

:34:48.:34:52.

I think, you know, this idea that, erm, gays are going to take over

:34:53.:34:58.

I, I think it's amusing when I hear that because they say when,

:34:59.:35:04.

when gay people walk down the street holding hands, instead

:35:05.:35:07.

of taking that as a simple display of affection,

:35:08.:35:09.

it is this horrendous thing we are flaunting.

:35:10.:35:12.

In the '80s, as AIDS took so many gay lives,

:35:13.:35:14.

it was Jones that conceived of the AIDS Memorial Quilt,

:35:15.:35:18.

the world's largest piece of community folk art,

:35:19.:35:21.

To remember the dead, we have sewn panels onto this ever-growing quilt.

:35:22.:35:30.

A television miniseries partly based on Jones' memoir, When We Rise,

:35:31.:35:34.

was released in the US earlier this year.

:35:35.:35:38.

What happened in the US had its effect here.

:35:39.:35:46.

The Pride march in London in 1979 was then the largest assembly of gay

:35:47.:35:50.

But four decades on, it's blossomed into something

:35:51.:35:58.

These days, corporate and official Britain is literally keen

:35:59.:36:02.

I spoke to Cleve Jones and asked him if, as a teenager,

:36:03.:36:11.

he could ever have imagined things changing so much.

:36:12.:36:15.

No, not at all and I don't think any of us did.

:36:16.:36:18.

In fact, I would say that many of the things we've

:36:19.:36:21.

accomplished weren't even on our wish list.

:36:22.:36:23.

Marriage equality certainly was something I did not

:36:24.:36:25.

What's the lesson on how to campaign?

:36:26.:36:33.

You worked with one of the best, Harvey Milk, who was later

:36:34.:36:36.

assassinated, of course, as a supervisor on the San Francisco City

:36:37.:36:39.

But you saw how you got change through campaigning.

:36:40.:36:48.

One of the things that Harvey kept saying

:36:49.:36:51.

over and over was that everyone had to come out.

:36:52.:36:54.

He was mistrustful of media campaigns.

:36:55.:36:55.

He was a believer in retail politics, going

:36:56.:36:58.

And even today, I work primarily within

:36:59.:37:01.

the labour movement in the United States

:37:02.:37:02.

today and even today, I see

:37:03.:37:04.

the power of storytelling, as we bring together workers

:37:05.:37:12.

of different ethnicities and genders and

:37:13.:37:14.

backgrounds to fight the good fight for the, you know,

:37:15.:37:16.

workers are always there on the marches,

:37:17.:37:21.

The left, of course, captured and supported the cause

:37:22.:37:25.

Has that made you innately left-wing?

:37:26.:37:29.

Is the LGBT cause innately a left-wing one, do you

:37:30.:37:32.

No, I wouldn't say that but I would say that I have always

:37:33.:37:39.

believed in the larger struggle and I have

:37:40.:37:41.

always been grateful that the

:37:42.:37:42.

We had to fight a long time to be included.

:37:43.:37:47.

We had to fight the Democratic party a long time to be included in the

:37:48.:37:51.

platform, so all of these are advances.

:37:52.:37:53.

celebrate every time a Republican comes around.

:37:54.:37:57.

I would say that neither the Liberals nor the

:37:58.:38:00.

Conservatives own this issue or my community.

:38:01.:38:05.

The book, the memoir of your life, you've kept everything

:38:06.:38:07.

You've had a lot of love in your life.

:38:08.:38:12.

People reading it will learn about the train journeys

:38:13.:38:14.

where you meet somebody or walking through the cemetery and you meet

:38:15.:38:17.

What do you think the straights will think when they read

:38:18.:38:20.

just about how many, and how easily you have found it to have

:38:21.:38:24.

Well, I've been delighted by the response from

:38:25.:38:27.

I was a little afraid that the only people who would read

:38:28.:38:36.

it were old, white, gay men who went through it with me.

:38:37.:38:39.

And I think today, people are desperate for

:38:40.:38:43.

strategies and answers and encouragement and hope for their

:38:44.:38:45.

Some of them are finding it in my book and that is just a

:38:46.:38:50.

Do you think the position the LGBT community has

:38:51.:38:53.

arrived at in terms of acceptance in most

:38:54.:38:55.

Western countries now, do you

:38:56.:38:57.

I mean in the United States, President Trump,

:38:58.:39:01.

Honestly, I would have to say that yes, everything LGBT people have won

:39:02.:39:12.

But I would say that that's not even my greatest concern.

:39:13.:39:19.

I think that our president has turned so many things upside down,

:39:20.:39:28.

As a member of the LGBT community I'm concerned

:39:29.:39:34.

but if I was living in Poland or Latvia or Lithuania, I think I

:39:35.:39:37.

We are in uncharted waters and really,

:39:38.:39:43.

quite frankly, I think anything could happen and I find it

:39:44.:39:46.

I hope to continue to change the hearts and minds of ordinary

:39:47.:39:59.

people so that they can, you know, accept and love their children.

:40:00.:40:01.

We still have an appallingly high suicide rate among gay and

:40:02.:40:04.

It makes me very sad because I used to be one of

:40:05.:40:10.

those children and was considering suicide.

:40:11.:40:11.

Do you ever see a day when we won't...

:40:12.:40:17.

When it will be boring to read about a gay struggle?

:40:18.:40:19.

Well, that's why I left all the sex in!

:40:20.:40:22.

Cleve Jones, thank you very much indeed.

:40:23.:40:27.

Before we go, if you watched Doctor Who on Saturday,

:40:28.:40:33.

there were some pretty heavy meta hints that the next

:40:34.:40:36.

Well, you know how I'm usually all about women and...

:40:37.:40:44.

Well, bookies' favourite Phoebe Waller-Bridge of Fleabag fame

:40:45.:41:03.

has denied she's going to be the first female Doctor.

:41:04.:41:06.

But then, Joanna Lumley has already done the role, so that

:41:07.:41:10.

And in a recent interview for Gold Derby on Youtube,

:41:11.:41:14.

Phoebe may already have given the game away.

:41:15.:41:16.

Not allowed to say anything about that one way or the other.

:41:17.:41:28.

Warmer weather spreads over the UK. Parts of southern England getting

:41:29.:41:56.

close to 30. A lot of

:41:57.:41:58.

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