25/07/2017 Newsnight


25/07/2017

Emily Maitlis is live from Washington as President Trump attacks his own chief law officer. Plus trade minister Liam Fox on chlorinated chicken.


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Transcript


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Good evening and welcome to Washington,

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where tonight the raging storm is a political one.

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This capital city is buzzing tonight

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with vicious intrigue and raw politics.

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The President is at daggers drawn with the man he appointed

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Donald Trump cannot forgive Mr Sessions for recusing himself

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from an FBI inquiry into any Russian meddling in last year's election -

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an inquiry which, if you're looking from the White House,

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Cue a volley of angry tweets from the President

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against a member of his own Cabinet this week,

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calling the Attorney General "weak" and "beleaguered".

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All this on the very day he struggled

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to get a major piece of legislation on reforming health care

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And into this maelstrom walks the British International Trade

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He wants a big international trade agreement with the United States.

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He needs it desperately if Brexit is to be a success.

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President Trump rolled out senior Republicans to meet Dr Fox,

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including the House Speaker, Paul Ryan.

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But when Trump tweets that a UK trade deal is big and exciting,

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Before we came on air, I spoke to Liam Fox

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about Trump, trade and - yes - chicken.

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First, the big picture of what's at stake.

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At 4:16am this morning, the President of the United States's

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Twitter account enthused over Liam Fox's visit.

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"Our special relationship with the UK is going to be even

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better, the US trade representative and UK's Liam Fox met today to begin

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A few hours later, so too did @realDonaldTrump -

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"Working on major trade deal with the United Kingdom,

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could be very big and exciting, JOBS!"

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"The EU is very protectionist with the US, stop!"

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Today there was good economic news for the Government at home.

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BMW announced they will build the fully electric version

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of the Mini at its Cowley plant near Oxford.

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The mood music may be positive, but Washington has long-standing

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gripes with EU restrictions that they'd like rid off.

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First, there's what's been called chlorination chicken.

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The US wants to sell us birds washed in chlorine -

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they insist they do not pose a health risk to consumers.

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Then there's hormone-boosted beef that the US insists

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The US wants to be able to sell us whisky aged less than three years -

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they call the current three-year requirement unwarranted.

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They complain that their corn exports are being hit

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And Washington has UK Government subsidies of Rolls-Royce

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Plenty for the Trade Secretary to consider, and time is pressing.

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I spoke Liam Fox just hours after that President Trump tweet

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about a "big, exciting" trade deal between the UK and the USA.

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I began by asking him which sectors or industries in the UK

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should be excited about a potential trade deal.

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We've been initiating a process of trade and investment working groups

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here, and there are four of them, one on continuity arrangements, that

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party to us by virtue of our membership of the EU, and we have to

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ensure they are replicated to ensure continuity of market access. We have

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been looking at areas where we can make short-term breakthroughs in

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liberalisation while we're still in the EU. In terms of business is all

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sectors, who are you thinking of? The third area is preparation for

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free trade agreements, and we have got working groups looking across

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the normal sectors to see where the opportunities might exist, and then

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our fourth group is looking at where we can work bilaterally to improve

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market access for both the US and the UK and across the global

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markets. So it is not a single focus at this point, it is great to have

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the enthusiasm of the American side in the process, and it has been very

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evident in the warmth with which we have been received here, but we are

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still a long way from being able to set out details of where we think

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the major breakthroughs would come, that is why we have officials. We

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know the Treasury has asked you to show how all this free trade will

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bring more value than any trade that is lost from the EU.

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Well, I don't accept the premise of the question,

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because it makes the assumption that we will lose value from our

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Well, we have to lose either the EU deal or the American deal.

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No, we don't, we don't have to lose anything at all.

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We haven't begun our negotiations with the EU yet on

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a future free trade agreement, and we begin from a very good

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position of zero tariffs and absolute regulatory equivalence.

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So that, technically, removes a lot of the barriers to difficulty.

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We are aiming that we will have a very open

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and comprehensive trading deal with the European Union,

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and our aim is to give all our businesses the same rights

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Now, how possible that will be, we won't know until we begin

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At the same time, we will want to see how we can get increased

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access to other markets, including the United States,

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but perhaps even more crucially how we can work with countries

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like the United States to open up the global economy

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in things like services, which will matter

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But your belief is that no value will be lost?

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Well, I hope that no value will be lost.

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And of course it makes no sense to have an assumption

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that you will be at one end of the spectrum

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rather than the other, so what we're aiming for is an open,

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liberal, comprehensive agreement with the European Union,

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which is in both our interests to have -

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both for European producers as well as British producers.

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And at the same time to have a good agreement with the United States

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and the reason for that is the global economy is sluggish.

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Global trade is growing at only 1.3% at the present time,

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we must get that up, because we've got to see a more

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open trading environment or our exporters will suffer.

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Trade is abstract, it is complicated, and I know

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that you accuse us, the media, of obsessing over chicken,

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but the reason we talk about chicken is it is tangible,

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people actually understand that as an issue.

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So is it true that we would change our regulations, our food standards,

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We've no intentions of reducing standards, as we said

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on a number of occasions, we think the British standards

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So you would then rule out chlorine-washed chicken?

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Well, there is no health issue with that, the European Union has

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The issue lies around some of the secondary issues of animal welfare,

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and it is perfectly reasonable for people to raise that, but it will

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come much further down the road. We will be looking at those issues much

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further down the road. But this is something people can understand,

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will you say it is fine, we don't need the regulation that the EU

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currently has, we will be prepared to accept whatever the chicken is

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washed in because we believe it is the right way to go, it makes food

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cheaper and it is the right deal with the US? We will want to make

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sure that scientific advice ensures proper protection for British

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consumers, because dropping our standards... Well, it doesn't, the

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EU has a preventative strategy, so it doesn't believe that

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chlorine-washed chicken is the right thing to have in the EU. Will I

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change under Liam Fox's trade deal? I can rule out that we will be

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dropping our standards on consumer protection or environmental

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protection or on animal welfare, these are reasonable things for

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people to look at, but in terms of where we will be on specifics by the

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time we finish a free-trade agreement which could be two or

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three years by the time it is concluded, depending on the rest of

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our relationship with the EU, it is too early say, but as a general

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principle we are not going to be the low regulation alternative that some

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people have suggested. Chicken is just one of a list, and we could

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also be looking at GM crops - will we be accepting GM crops, hormone

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fed beef? You are asking me the same question in a different way. These

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are elements that we will look at further down, these are elements in

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the agricultural section of an agreement. But we could be in a

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process that will now accept GM crops or hormone fed beef. We will

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want to look at what science tells us, what is the best protection for

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our consumers and the environment, and we will look at that across

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government. We are not going to jump to conclusions right now, because

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that would be an inappropriate way to carry out a negotiation. The US

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wants us to stop subsidising Rolls-Royce engines made in Derby,

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will we do that? It is a negotiation, and we want to see what

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we can get from the Americans, they will want to get things from us. We

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will not be giving away things that are detrimental to UK producers, our

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economy or consumers, why would we do that? The whole idea of Brexit,

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the line that we were fed was taking back control - now we are in a

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position where you cannot rule out that we might have chlorine-washed

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chicken, GM crops, hormone fed beef, why are we in a position where we

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seem to be going along with whatever a superpower does, whatever

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principles or standards or lower standards America is suggesting we

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might have to accept? That is the question people want to know, if we

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are taking back control. You are suggesting we have to stick with

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whatever the European Union tells us in terms of legacy. We will make the

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right decisions for the UK, we will decide for the UK what is best, not

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what is best for the US, for the European Union, what is best for the

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UK, and all of those areas... And the US model may be better than EU

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regulations. The British model will be the best model for Britain.

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Back now to the political storm here in Washington itself,

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where the White House is continuing its relentless

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Twitter pounding of the Attorney General, Jeff Sessions.

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Last week, the President said he wished he'd never have appointed

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Mr Sessions if he'd known that he'd recuse himself from

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And this morning at 6am, the social-media assault continued.

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All this as Donald Trump struggled to try and get one of his most

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important pieces of domestic legislation,

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Mark Urban has been watching the events of the day.

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The president of United States... Despite a packed legislative agenda

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and multiple international challenges, the stand-off between

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the president and those investigating him continues. Today,

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he fuelled doubts about the future of his own principal law officer. I

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am disappointed in the Attorney General. He should not have recused

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himself - almost immediately after he took office. And if he was going

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to recused themselves, he should have told me prior to taking office,

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and I would have picked somebody else. So I think that is a bad

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thing, not for the president, but for the presidency. I think it is

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unfair to the presidency. And that is the way I feel. The President at

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least one of his early-morning tweet storms, covering a variety of

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subjects, and attacking his own Attorney General, saying he has

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taken a very weak position on Hillary Clinton crimes, where are

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the leakers? It followed a tweet yesterday where he asked

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rhetorically, why aren't the committees and investigators and of

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course our beleaguered Attorney General looking into crooked

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Hillary's crimes and Russia relations? This is just outright

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bullying of Jeff Sessions at this point, we have seen it for several

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days running, and the president almost appearing to want to force

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him to quit, to resign, rather than be forced into another awkward

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position of demanding his resignation or sending him his

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walking papers. That touched a nerve with many Republicans on The hill,

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where Jeff Sessions served for 20 years as a senator along side men

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like Lindsey Graham, a persistent Republican trump critic who

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responded to the latest tweets with his own sewing...

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So is the Republican caucus fraying? Well, the House Majority Leader was

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today still backing his president. It is up to the president to decide

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on his personnel decisions and any fallout from that, if he has

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concerns about anyone in the administration, I am sure he will

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talk with them directly. Speaker Ryan, like many on the hill, wants

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to try and maintain momentum on the platform he was elected on, with the

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repeal and replacement of President Obama's health-care plan ranking

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high on that agenda. Today, a senator vote so narrow that John

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McCain had to come in from his sick bed carried that forward, delivering

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a fillip for the president. I hope we can continue to depend on each

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other, to learn how to trust each other again, and by so doing better,

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save the people who elected us. Stop listening to the bombastic

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loudmouths on the radio and television and the internet. To hell

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with them! They don't want anything done for the public good. Our

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incapacity is their livelihood. Let's trust each other. Let's return

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to regular order. The motion to proceed on health care has just

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passed... But the legislative game of pass the parcel continues between

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two Republican-controlled chamber is hooked on the rhetoric of repealing

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Obamacare but scared of the consequences of depriving millions

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of their care. This is not the end of the road, it may be a near-term

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win for Trump today, but there are significant differences, this is one

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sixth of the US economy, tens of millions of people poised to lose

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their health care under any form of this bill, and this is proving

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deeply unpopular - this bill only had the support of around 20% of the

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American people, whether or not the Republicans have the calculus right

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today, a lot of people are questioning. That battle will call

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soon for summer's congressional recess, but the rush of probe will

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go one, and tonight the new communications director at the White

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House said the president will soon come to a decision about the future

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of his Attorney General, Jeff Sessions.

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Well, earlier I spoke to one of the few political experts

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who predicted Donald Trump's victory in last year's election,

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Professor Allan Lichtman of the American University

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He got the last nine election is correct and previously stood for the

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Democrats. Nine months later, he's predicting

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the end of the Trump presidency and has written a book

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arguing his position, I began by asking him how he reached

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both his predictions. My prediction of a Donald Trump

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victory was based upon a scientific method, studying all American

:15:33.:15:35.

elections going back to 1860. My prediction of a Donald Trump

:15:36.:15:39.

impeachment, of course, could not be based on a mathematical

:15:40.:15:43.

model, because there haven't been enough examples

:15:44.:15:46.

of impeachment in US history. But my prediction of a Donald Trump

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impeachment, in my book, The Case For Impeachment,

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was based on a deep study of the history of impeachments,

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the basis for impeachments, Donald Trump's record

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as a businessman, and Donald Trump's record during the first two or three

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months of his administration. That was enough to point me

:16:06.:16:11.

towards what seemed to be an inevitable end to the presidency

:16:12.:16:13.

in the first term. And are you suggesting that

:16:14.:16:16.

impeachment is imminent? Let's not forget that

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Bill Clinton wasn't impeached until well into the fifth year

:16:20.:16:27.

of his presidency. Richard Nixon didn't resign

:16:28.:16:34.

until more than five and a half So I wouldn't say impeachment

:16:35.:16:36.

is right around the corner, but I do think it's going to come,

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and when it will come will be when Republicans come to realise

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that this President is a liability The Lichtman rule of politics

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is that the first requisite for any incumbent officeholder is personal

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survival - not loyalty Impeachment, though,

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is not a thing - it is a vote, Impeachment is a vote by a majority

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- not a supermajority - of the US House of Representatives,

:17:08.:17:15.

and, of course, Republicans But it would only take about two

:17:16.:17:17.

dozen Republicans to defect from Donald Trump to get a majority

:17:18.:17:26.

vote on impeachment, that's only about 10%

:17:27.:17:28.

of Republicans in the House. So is there a loyalty

:17:29.:17:33.

still from the Republican Party I think his party

:17:34.:17:36.

stands on a knife edge. On the one hand, they desperately

:17:37.:17:42.

want to support their president, and they don't want to see

:17:43.:17:45.

an ugly impeachment process. On the other hand, they realise that

:17:46.:17:47.

a president whose approval rating is in the 36-40% range

:17:48.:17:50.

is a liability to their party and could be a liability

:17:51.:17:56.

to their own personal re-election. I don't think Republicans

:17:57.:18:01.

are at impeachment yet, but it wouldn't take all that much

:18:02.:18:05.

to push them over the line. If Jeff Sessions is removed or goes,

:18:06.:18:11.

do you think that will trigger No, I don't think the firing

:18:12.:18:20.

of Jeff Sessions or the pushing of Jeff Sessions out by itself

:18:21.:18:25.

would be enough for the party, the Republicans to move

:18:26.:18:28.

towards impeachment. What might move them

:18:29.:18:29.

towards impeachment would be that if the firing or resignation

:18:30.:18:36.

of Jeff Sessions was a prelude to the firing of the special

:18:37.:18:38.

counsel, Robert Mueller. That could push Republicans over

:18:39.:18:41.

the line, although I'm not even So we are getting back to,

:18:42.:18:43.

essentially, the Russia scandal Is your sense that impeachment

:18:44.:18:47.

would come from treason? I think we are treading close

:18:48.:18:54.

to possible treason. Russia attacked the United States -

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it wasn't a military attack, but it was an attack nonetheless,

:18:58.:19:01.

not only through hacking of Democratic e-mails

:19:02.:19:09.

but through the use of Russian state-controleld media and through

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the use of trolls and bots And if any of Trump's team

:19:12.:19:14.

was involved in colluding with the Russians in that attack,

:19:15.:19:18.

that arguably is treason. If Trump himself knew about it,

:19:19.:19:22.

even if he didn't participate, that's another crime called

:19:23.:19:26.

misprision of treason, the failure to report treason,

:19:27.:19:31.

and if Trump himself was involved, I believe a strong case

:19:32.:19:34.

could be made for treason. And treason is a very serious charge

:19:35.:19:36.

- no sitting high public official of the United States has ever been

:19:37.:19:41.

charged with treason in our history. You write in the book about Trump's

:19:42.:19:46.

vulnerabilities - what do you see I wrote in The Case For Impeachment

:19:47.:19:49.

that a Russian sword of Damocles is hanging over this administration,

:19:50.:19:56.

it's hanging on a very That meeting with Donald Trump

:19:57.:19:59.

Junior, Jared Kushner and Paul Manafort with

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a multiplicity of Russian actors is, in my mind, pretty powerful

:20:05.:20:08.

circumstantial proof of collusion. The purpose of the meeting

:20:09.:20:12.

was to get from the Russian government dirt on Hillary Clinton,

:20:13.:20:15.

their opponent. That alone, the willingness

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the eagerness to take that meeting, is certainly strong circumstantial

:20:23.:20:24.

But people listening to this will be possibly saying,

:20:25.:20:30.

"There is a man who is clearly a Democrat, who is creating,

:20:31.:20:33.

if you like, rumour for political spite."

:20:34.:20:37.

Nonsense - I have been predicting elections since 1980,

:20:38.:20:45.

and I have predicted about as many Republican victories

:20:46.:20:47.

If I was just, you know, a flag for the Democratic Party,

:20:48.:20:52.

In fact, I've lost all my Democratic friends because I predicted

:20:53.:20:58.

Donald Trump's victory - I even got a note from him

:20:59.:21:01.

acknowledging that prediction, saying, "Good call, Professor."

:21:02.:21:05.

In addition, there have been plenty of presidents with whom I have

:21:06.:21:08.

disagreed with their policies, but I've never before

:21:09.:21:10.

predicted a president was going to get impeached.

:21:11.:21:19.

I'm joined now by the Republican strategist Chris Neiweem.

:21:20.:21:25.

Just before we came on air we should tell viewers the US house of

:21:26.:21:33.

representatives had overwhelmingly backed new sanctions against Russia,

:21:34.:21:39.

419-3. The question now is well Donald Trump have to go a long with

:21:40.:21:43.

the overwhelming vote for stronger sanctions or will he resist it? It's

:21:44.:21:49.

always difficult to predict what President Trump does, his behaviour

:21:50.:21:53.

and his actions are always, they come directly from him and sometimes

:21:54.:21:59.

he disagrees with his Republican party, he came to power in a very

:22:00.:22:03.

diverse way. It will restrict some of his capabilities especially in

:22:04.:22:08.

dealing with Russia. I think he will think it over but we could see

:22:09.:22:13.

resistance based on his past actions. Looking at what happened

:22:14.:22:18.

today, the health care, not a bell, a bill about a bill which was

:22:19.:22:22.

essentially about appealing Obamacare, it passed by a whisker.

:22:23.:22:27.

That after ruling out poor John McCain who has just undergone brain

:22:28.:22:32.

surgery, this is not a man who looks in control at the moment. I think

:22:33.:22:38.

that would be correct, it's a thin margin and we expected that. The

:22:39.:22:43.

health care legislation affects every state different, the United

:22:44.:22:46.

States sent by design was supposed to be more deliberate. I win is a

:22:47.:22:51.

win so if they can get over the threshold and get it it's all that

:22:52.:22:57.

matters. When I heard from the Independent Senator Angus King this

:22:58.:23:00.

morning he said let me give you a brief synopsis of what we understand

:23:01.:23:03.

the health care bill this afternoon and he paused and that was it.

:23:04.:23:08.

Nobody understood what they were even voting on. That is a tragic

:23:09.:23:13.

position for a new president to be in six months in. It's definitely a

:23:14.:23:19.

very interesting political dynamic. Also remember the United States

:23:20.:23:23.

Senate when you look at procedures and boats, voting to proceed to the

:23:24.:23:27.

vote, we need to see the final vote on the text. I think it's going to

:23:28.:23:33.

be close but ultimately this is why lawmaking is hard. He is calling on

:23:34.:23:38.

the loyalty of the party right now at the same time he is trying to

:23:39.:23:43.

fire his own Attorney General, and man who's he appointed just six

:23:44.:23:47.

months ago, one of his earliest and most loyal followers who gave up the

:23:48.:23:51.

good Senate position to be there. How do we understand what is going

:23:52.:23:55.

on in that dynamic and what other Republicans should make of it?

:23:56.:23:59.

Trying to guess the behaviour of President Trump is very difficult.

:24:00.:24:05.

Don't guess or predict that then, tell me how people should behave in

:24:06.:24:09.

terms of their loyalty within the party? Everyone needs to think with

:24:10.:24:14.

their priorities and what they think should happen and their own

:24:15.:24:18.

integrity but this president does have a business negotiation

:24:19.:24:21.

background, he is high standards and wants to see things a certain way.

:24:22.:24:27.

He was being cautious and if he had nothing to hide let those

:24:28.:24:30.

investigations go on and fall where they fall, I think it was peculiar

:24:31.:24:34.

but that is where we are right now and we'll have to see where it plays

:24:35.:24:38.

out and if he retains the Attorney General. At the moment it seems like

:24:39.:24:44.

he will. There must be people like you, Republicans and critically

:24:45.:24:47.

people in the Senate and the house who are asking themselves in all

:24:48.:24:51.

faith how much longer can we support a president whose actions we might

:24:52.:24:57.

not even understand let alone support. If Jeff Sessions is fired

:24:58.:25:04.

or encouraged to go is that tipping point? It's an interesting case

:25:05.:25:09.

study in American politics and democracy because this president

:25:10.:25:12.

went to the people and that is where he got his mandate and that is who

:25:13.:25:16.

elected him. Before the election he was beating up Republicans and

:25:17.:25:20.

Democrats with both hands and won. It comes down to if the people

:25:21.:25:24.

continue to support him and if you will continue to have a working

:25:25.:25:28.

relationship to get the agenda through. I have never seen this

:25:29.:25:34.

political dynamic, it's very unique and makes for interesting analysis

:25:35.:25:41.

at least we can say that. So when a distinguished professor like Allan

:25:42.:25:43.

Lichtman who has called the last nine presidential wins says that he

:25:44.:25:52.

imagines the impeachment of Donald Trump not imminently, not September,

:25:53.:25:57.

but down the line, you have to listen to that presumably? I think

:25:58.:26:00.

you need to listen to it and look at it but with everyone in the universe

:26:01.:26:04.

looking for something on Russian collusion we'll find out whether it

:26:05.:26:08.

is collusion delusion or substantial and that talk about if there is

:26:09.:26:16.

something there. The government has to get things done legislatively.

:26:17.:26:20.

Chris Neiweem, thank you for coming in. Good to be with you.

:26:21.:26:24.

Let's just pause the discussion about Donald Trump here

:26:25.:26:26.

in the United States for just a moment

:26:27.:26:28.

and take a look at American policy towards the fight

:26:29.:26:30.

Pepfar is the multibillion-dollar US fund which

:26:31.:26:33.

has saved thousands, if not millions, of lives

:26:34.:26:35.

But doctors are warning that they face a difficult choice.

:26:36.:26:39.

American policy now prohibits funding of such schemes

:26:40.:26:41.

if they might have anything to do with abortion.

:26:42.:26:43.

It's become known as the "global gag" rule, as Karen Allen reports.

:26:44.:26:53.

A little over 20 years since the dawn of democracy,

:26:54.:26:57.

South Africa projects the image of a country on the move.

:26:58.:27:02.

But it has the largest number of people in the world

:27:03.:27:06.

living with HIV AIDS - 7 million of them.

:27:07.:27:10.

Yet the disease is no longer a death sentence

:27:11.:27:13.

that it was for previous generations, thanks in part

:27:14.:27:15.

to millions of dollars of US government aid.

:27:16.:27:20.

You and I slept without condoms so all your exes are pretty much

:27:21.:27:23.

One of the great success stories of how that US money

:27:24.:27:27.

What is the point of this clinic if you can't help me?

:27:28.:27:33.

But if the storyline strays into reproductive

:27:34.:27:38.

health or abortion issues, the producers have to look

:27:39.:27:41.

It's all about complying with tight US funding rules and those rules

:27:42.:27:46.

With the stroke of a pen President Trump has enacted what's

:27:47.:28:00.

It means that millions of dollars of US money for HIV is potentially

:28:01.:28:07.

at risk if it's linked in any way to abortion.

:28:08.:28:12.

HIV prevalence in South Africa is high.

:28:13.:28:14.

There is a lot of work that goes towards it.

:28:15.:28:16.

And this is work that we want to continue happening.

:28:17.:28:21.

So I think this is where the main problem is,

:28:22.:28:23.

that we are going to have to choose one, you know?

:28:24.:28:26.

Are we going to choose to keep fighting HIV in the country,

:28:27.:28:29.

or are we going to choose to give women the rights that they have

:28:30.:28:32.

Unlike many other countries in Africa, abortion

:28:33.:28:38.

But with high levels of stigma almost half of all terminations

:28:39.:28:44.

There is anecdotal evidence that the pills used to induce

:28:45.:28:53.

an abortion are stolen from state hospitals by members of staff then

:28:54.:28:56.

With the introduction of the US rules, there's a fear

:28:57.:29:01.

about a contraction of services here, forcing more women to seek

:29:02.:29:04.

Here in Johannesburg you don't have to be a detective to discover

:29:05.:29:13.

where to purchase abortion drugs on the black market.

:29:14.:29:18.

We've taken our hidden cameras, with an actress posing as a client,

:29:19.:29:22.

Watch the character in the dark jacket, he's the dealer.

:29:23.:29:37.

He tries to steer her into a shop to hand over the pills.

:29:38.:29:48.

It then emerges that the man sitting down is in fact his accomplice.

:29:49.:29:53.

They just want to make the sale so he slips the drug

:29:54.:29:56.

from up his sleeve and then in minutes the pair are gone.

:29:57.:30:06.

The actress hands us the packet of five pills,

:30:07.:30:09.

which she was instructed to take all at once.

:30:10.:30:11.

We took the drugs to an accredited abortion clinic.

:30:12.:30:19.

These are the pills that we picked up on the street, 500 Rand, ?30.

:30:20.:30:22.

Yes they are the right drugs but the dosage, no, it's not.

:30:23.:30:29.

We give clients four pills and this being five is an overdose.

:30:30.:30:38.

Campaigners worry that with the shadow cast over funding

:30:39.:30:41.

for all areas of health, including family planning,

:30:42.:30:45.

more unwanted pregnancies and more terminations are inevitable.

:30:46.:30:49.

Botched abortions are one of the biggest causes

:30:50.:30:51.

The new global gag rule is only likely to make that worse.

:30:52.:30:56.

And for HIV AIDS, which still claims millions of lives each

:30:57.:30:59.

year, there could also be unintended consequences.

:31:00.:31:06.

Even though I tested HIV-positive, I don't think it's a barrier for me

:31:07.:31:10.

This woman, an aspiring young businesswoman,

:31:11.:31:17.

owns her survival in part to the billions of US tax dollars

:31:18.:31:20.

The US contributes two thirds of all bilateral funding worldwide.

:31:21.:31:28.

I come draw blood every six months and collect my medication

:31:29.:31:31.

But the money to keep her healthy now has conditions attached.

:31:32.:31:37.

It cannot be traced to abortion services in any shape or form.

:31:38.:31:43.

I don't see how people can sit in Washington and think

:31:44.:31:46.

they can then influence me on that micro level.

:31:47.:31:48.

I am restricted in terms of giving you health information

:31:49.:31:52.

that you have a right to for you to make informed choice.

:31:53.:31:55.

So it interferes with the doctor-patient

:31:56.:31:56.

relationship in a very, very, very negative manner.

:31:57.:31:59.

The problem with singling out abortion is that modern day health

:32:00.:32:02.

care is all integrated, whether it's children's

:32:03.:32:04.

Activists warn they could all be affected by this rule simply

:32:05.:32:12.

With a children's clinic here and reproductive health and HIV

:32:13.:32:20.

services down the corridor, this one-stop shop is the gold

:32:21.:32:24.

standard that international health agencies are trying to promote.

:32:25.:32:28.

But there is a fear that the global gag rule could impose guilt

:32:29.:32:31.

by association for services that have got nothing

:32:32.:32:34.

Thousands of miles from here President Trump's signed into law

:32:35.:32:41.

rules which some view as an assault on South Africa's sovereignty.

:32:42.:32:46.

But turning the country's back on the biggest donor

:32:47.:32:48.

The taxpayers in the United States have a right.

:32:49.:32:58.

And the health care workers in South Africa and the women

:32:59.:33:00.

in South Africa have a right to also attain their highest level of care

:33:01.:33:04.

Many believe the US is overstepping the mark, threatening to damage

:33:05.:33:13.

sweeping gains made to improving the health of millions

:33:14.:33:16.

Self-sufficiency still beyond the horizons of many African states.

:33:17.:33:30.

I'm joined now by two seasoned Trump watchers -

:33:31.:33:35.

Susan Glasser from the news website Politico

:33:36.:33:37.

and James Kirchick from the Brookings Institute.

:33:38.:33:42.

Very nice to have both of you. If I could start with you, we have heard

:33:43.:33:50.

a lot this week about Russia, we have had Jared Kushner two days

:33:51.:33:55.

running in those hearings, we will be hearing from Paul Manafort the

:33:56.:33:58.

former communications director, tomorrow. Allan Lichtman was telling

:33:59.:34:03.

me that Trump could be the first president found guilty of treason. I

:34:04.:34:08.

think that is a really great charge to be throwing around. Treason is a

:34:09.:34:12.

very specific definition in the United States, you have to be aiding

:34:13.:34:16.

and abetting an enemy of the United States with whom we are at war.

:34:17.:34:20.

Russia is an enemy of this country, but we're not at war with them, so I

:34:21.:34:24.

think the rush to that sort of conclusion, the use that language is

:34:25.:34:27.

really ill tempered and inaccurate. I not trying to defend Donald Trump,

:34:28.:34:32.

his position on Russia and what the campaign did. I thought what we saw

:34:33.:34:37.

during the campaign, Trump speaking of his admiration for Vladimir

:34:38.:34:41.

Putin, calling on the Russians to hack Hillary Clinton, it was

:34:42.:34:44.

abominable, unpatriotic, un-American, but it does not rise to

:34:45.:34:49.

the level of treason. Susan Glasser, over to you, do you think his

:34:50.:34:54.

critics are getting carried away on this one? Smoke with no fire? Well,

:34:55.:35:00.

look, first of all, we are at the beginning stage of multiple

:35:01.:35:04.

different investigations, including, most seriously, the FBI and special

:35:05.:35:08.

counsel investigation headed by Bob Muller. Jamie makes an important

:35:09.:35:11.

point, to throw around words like that is probably not constructive

:35:12.:35:16.

for opponents of President Trump. The impeachment word has been used

:35:17.:35:21.

almost since noon on January the 20th, when Donald Trump became

:35:22.:35:26.

president, and the bottom line is, even if that were to be the outcome,

:35:27.:35:30.

we're talking about years of investigations and a very difficult

:35:31.:35:33.

political process on Capitol Hill before anything of that kind would

:35:34.:35:37.

happen. You get the sense from talking to lots of people who are

:35:38.:35:41.

understandably confused, they think, when will impeachment happen? Next

:35:42.:35:48.

month or something? Democrats are confused as to why Republicans are

:35:49.:35:53.

not more outraged by any sense of collusion or dealings with Russia,

:35:54.:35:57.

let's say, watched you make of that? As someone who has been very

:35:58.:36:01.

critical of the Republicans and the stance they have taken over the past

:36:02.:36:05.

year and a hard, really, Russia, I have to say that they are partly

:36:06.:36:10.

right to be a little sceptical of the outrage being expressed by

:36:11.:36:14.

Democrats. If you look at the record of the Obama administration on

:36:15.:36:17.

Russia over the last eight years, starting with the recent policy that

:36:18.:36:20.

began only six months after Russia invaded Georgia, we had a procession

:36:21.:36:26.

of moves that were basically feckless in dealing with Russia. In

:36:27.:36:31.

2012, Barack Obama mocked Mitt Romney, the presidential candidate,

:36:32.:36:35.

forcing Russia was our number one geopolitical threat, and now lots of

:36:36.:36:38.

Republicans are looking at Democrats, who laughed at them four

:36:39.:36:43.

years ago is for being these retrograde cold warriors, lecturing

:36:44.:36:46.

conservatives and Republicans that they are all pawns of Vladimir

:36:47.:36:49.

Putin. A lot of conservatives are very sceptical. Would you agree

:36:50.:36:57.

that, actually, the ill ease started with a Obama, and all the

:36:58.:37:01.

concessions, or all the weakness that Goodin saw in him? I think you

:37:02.:37:07.

have to go back much farther than that, the bottom line is that George

:37:08.:37:10.

W Bush first encountered Vladimir Putin as president back in 2001 and

:37:11.:37:16.

said he was a man he could do business with. There has been a long

:37:17.:37:22.

arc of four presidents, because Bill Clinton also had a brief opening up

:37:23.:37:28.

with Vladimir Putin. It is fair to say that both Democratic and

:37:29.:37:31.

Republican presidents have come in believing that they could work more

:37:32.:37:35.

closely with Russia, that we had national interests that would

:37:36.:37:37.

converge on key issues around the world, and all of them have found

:37:38.:37:42.

themselves disillusioned. Donald Trump is a huge outlier in that he

:37:43.:37:47.

is the only one of them who has come in fawning over Vladimir Putin's

:37:48.:37:52.

anti-democratic tendencies, fawning over Putin as a leader, and

:37:53.:37:56.

basically saying that he admires him and wants to work with him. Inside

:37:57.:38:01.

United States, in a partisan sense, it is both Democrats and Republicans

:38:02.:38:05.

who have an enormous amount of hypocrisy to go around, both have

:38:06.:38:08.

switched their positions based on nothing to do with Russia but having

:38:09.:38:12.

to do with the partisan politics of Russia changing in the United

:38:13.:38:15.

States, so that does make it, I think, very congregated in trying to

:38:16.:38:21.

sort through, but both parties have enough hypocrisy to go around on

:38:22.:38:25.

this issue. We're running out of time, so big picture, Jamie, six

:38:26.:38:30.

months into the Trump presidency, if someone said to you, how is it going

:38:31.:38:34.

now, I talk to members of the administration who say, ignore the

:38:35.:38:39.

tweets, the bombastic side of Trump, he is getting on with the job and it

:38:40.:38:44.

is working - is that how it seems from inside Washington? In

:38:45.:38:48.

Washington, things can seem worse than they do out in the country.

:38:49.:38:53.

That said, Donald Trump has not really accomplished any major pieces

:38:54.:38:59.

of legislation so far. He is attacking his own Attorney General,

:39:00.:39:02.

there are rumours now that his Secretary of State, Rex Tillerson,

:39:03.:39:05.

might be resigning some time before the end of the year. So it is not

:39:06.:39:10.

going very good for him. I am not going to say impeachment is on the

:39:11.:39:13.

horizon, that is being hysterical, but it is not going well for him.

:39:14.:39:16.

Thank you both very much indeed. After Sean Spicer's departure

:39:17.:39:18.

from the White House last week, we leave you with President Trump's

:39:19.:39:22.

new director of communication, the former Goldman Sachs investment

:39:23.:39:24.

manager Anthony Scaramucchi, The President's fake news media

:39:25.:39:26.

enemies are already trying to make None more so than the

:39:27.:39:35.

Daily Show's Trevor Noah, who may just have worked out

:39:36.:39:38.

his secret sauce. If you thought Donald Trump

:39:39.:39:40.

was inimitable, take a look. A spell of wetter and windy weather

:39:41.:39:42.

coming our way tomorrow, but there will be some brighter

:39:43.:40:06.

parts to pick out, and if you're in eastern areas, it's

:40:07.:40:09.

the morning, the best

:40:10.:40:12.

Emily Maitlis is live from Washington as President Trump attacks his own chief law officer. Plus trade minister Liam Fox on chlorinated chicken.


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