28/07/2017 Newsnight


In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines. With Kirsty Wark.

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To be deemed safe, cladding systems are meant to survive


Today, we learned Grenfell's lasted just nine.


82 other buildings use a design that's similar


Also tonight, we're used to being on the wing


to Europe in our millions, but when we leave the EU, will we be


forced to go into reverse, or even be grounded?


If we do not have a transitional arrangement and if we are not a


member of the EU as part of that transitional arrangement, then we


have chaos. And ahead of tomorrow's first-ever


Relaxed Prom for people with learning difficulties


and sensory impairments, MUSIC: Flight of the Bumblebee


by Rimsky-Korsakov In the six weeks since


the fire that turned Grenfell Tower into a tinderbox


and killed at least 80 people and injured almost as many again,


there have been a variety of tests on the insulation and cladding


of other buildings. There have been evacuations


from high-rises, and remedial work carried out in buildings


all over the country. But today the government revealed


that the fire test on exactly the combination used


in Grenfell Tower Cladding meant to resist


fire for 40 minutes, in the test, burned


in just nine minutes. There are also 82


buildings with cladding Here's our policy


editor Chris Cook. Over the past weeks what the


government has been doing is not testing cladding, but auditing


cladding and when we hear about hundreds of buildings failing tests


it means the government has ascertained they are buildings where


they need to work out whether they are dangerous because the thing to


know, you might have non-combustible material on the side of the building


that it can be safely used in combination with the right materials


and so the government is running six huge tests where it will mock-up


designs with different combinations of cladding and it works out which


are safe and we started today with a combination used at Grenfell.


We thought we knew what happened at Grenfell. The importance of doing


the test on Grenfell, which was not safe, we ascertained in laboratory


conditions it did not work. It tells us 82 other buildings with similar


designs are flawed. 37 of them privately owned. It tells us it is


implausible that a developer could, following the letter of the law,


could have got the stuff through under the building regulations. We


made a film to help you understand more about the test.


Tbe only way to test the fire safety of a cladding design properly


is to rig up your design and then try to set fire to it.


Last week, Newsnight was permitted to film preparations for such a test


on cladding like that used at Grenfell Tower.


So plastic foam insulation on the inside, aluminium panels


We visited before the aluminium panels had been put up.


So what's underneath those aluminium panels?


Well, first of all, the stuff under the foil here,


In this case, so-called PIR insulation.


It's a plastic foam, it's the kind of stuff


Now, importantly, this stuff here, this yellow stuff, that's


It's supposed to stop the fire from going horizontally


These black strips here, those are intumescent


What happens with these is that if there is a fire


in this bit of insulation, they will heat up, expand


and they will stop the fire from going up the building.


But the thing is, both the horizontal firebreak


and the vertical firebreak rely on the aluminium cladding


on the outside, because otherwise the fire can just go around them.


This really is a system that's being tested, not just a group


Well, we weren't allowed anywhere near and the government hasn't


So here's a graph showing the temperature measured by one


instrument in the cladding as the test wore on.


At three minutes, the scientists noted...


The colour of the panels has changed from white to dark grey.


Sporadic flaming from the top of the rig.


Flaming several metres beyond the top of the rig.


To pass this test, the rig is supposed to last


This result implies the design, not poor insulation or bad luck,


This result implies the design, not poor installation or bad luck,


These materials didn't meet the required standards


How this design got signed off is a critical question


and not just at Grenfell - also in the 82 buildings that have


been told that this test means their cladding


Within the past few minutes, President Trump has announced


on Twitter that he has appointed a new White House chief of staff.


He's the former secretary of homeland security, John F Kelly.


It's not clear whether Mr Kelly's predecessor, Reince Preibus,


It's not clear whether Mr Kelly's predecessor, Reince Priebus,


This follows the apparent failure last night of Republican attempts


Joining me to unpack all this is Politico's Daniel Lippman.


Good evening, within the last few minutes, CNN reports that Reince


Priebus resigned privately yesterday. What do you know about


what has been happening? There are conflicting reports on that. Sources


close to Reince Priebus said he resigned in the White House sources


said he was fired today. He was seen on Air Force One travelling with the


president today and we do not know what happened. The broader issue is


that this underscores that the White House chaos in the west wing has


continued. Reince Priebus, his leaving the White House is not going


to stop that. He was not the biggest problem in the White House. Let's


talk about Priebus. He was the Republicans' point man. An insider,


Republican insider in this slightly strange west wing we have now and


Donald Trump has edged him out. Was there any question it was to do with


the failure to get the affordable care vote repeals last night, which


Priebus was tasked with doing? Even before the health care failure last


night, Reince Priebus was on thin ice, because the President's


advisers, in his family, they were not happy with his performance.


Reince Priebus has promised to be an establishment figure who could get


Capitol Hill to follow what Trump wanted and even if the health care


bill had passed, Reince Priebus would still probably be out of his


job. I think Reince Priebus did not perform to heroin's expectations


because it is hard to manage a White House like the one President Trump


has. We have a situation where it might look like Steve Bannon has won


but Anthony Scaramucci is coruscating about Steve Bannon, who


according to the New Yorker had an extraordinary conversation with


expletives and denigrating things to say about Priebus. Reince Priebus


never fully meshed with Trump and Scaramucci is kind of a mini Trump.


And is... He has been told by people close to him to quiet down his


media, because generally as communications director for the


White House, you are not supposed to publicly trash fellow advisers and


colleagues at work. Scaramucci was the whole story this week and Trump


does not like being supplanted as the number one media celebrity in


politics in DC. I think Steve Bannon is safer the White House, he will


not get fired or resign because he has a closer relationship with the


president the Reince Priebus ever had. Thanks.


Since we joined the EU, we have enjoyed pretty much unfettered air


travel to European Union destinations - give or take


In fact, the Office of National Statistics reported that,


last year, there was a record total of 14.7 million visits to Spain


alone by UK residents - the vast majority of


But when we exit the EU, if we leave the European


industry and safety bodies - as seems to be the plan -


Here's our business editor Helen Thomas.


For decades, we've been taking flight to an ever-increasing


But as we migrate towards Brexit, there are warnings


If we're not careful, could we find ourselves, well, flightless?


Ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon, it's a great


The boss of Ryanair has been vocal about the risks to our getaways.


There is a real prospect and we need to deal with this,


that there is going to be no flights between the UK and Europe


for a period of weeks, months, beyond March 2019.


He wants the UK to stay in Europe's existing open skies agreement that


He says we're running out of time to negotiate an alternative.


The industry that makes the planes has its worries, too.


Aeromet manufactures 45,000 fuel connectors for Airbus each year.


From here in Rochester they go to Wales to become part of wings,


then on to Toulouse, where the planes are assembled.


The aerospace industry has some familiar concerns.


It wants hassle-free trade with no tariffs or delays for complex


But, there is a more fundamental problem.


The safety regime that underpins everything


from parts to planes, to pilots to maintenance,


And that has the potential to ground the industry.


That safety regime is the work of the European Aviation Safety Agency.


The boss of the UK's aerospace industry body says it's


We are very clear that we wish to remain a member of


the European Aviation Safety Agency and we don't believe


that there is a viable alternative that can be up and running


ADS reckons it could take five to ten years and 300 extra


staff to equip the UK's Civil Aviation Authority


And we may still need a transition period where we stay very


When we cease to be an EU member, we need to have in place a whole


So, for us, the transition period is important and it's important that


during that period we remain an EU member.


Really, it's about providing our international colleagues,


particularly the US, with confidence that


the new regulatory regime that we are going to operate


is capable of meeting the high safety and security


The challenge is we don't know what that is going to look like.


So how complicated is it to secure our freedom to fly?


Countries like Norway or Switzerland are part


of the European safety agency, but outside the EU.


But they also have bilateral agreements with places like the US.


Without a safety regime that is recognised by the rest


of the world, the UK could find itself left on the ground.


This isn't just general griping about the cost


and disruption of Brexit, it's a very specific problem.


And it's not one that can be sold just by the UK and Europe.


It requires input from regulators around the world.


By some estimates, that work could take 18 months to make sure


that we can keep flying after departure from the EU.


And that's even if we stay part of the European safety body.


The clock is most definitely ticking.


The head of America's Federal aviation administration said in June


that discussions with the UK Government had started,


but he added they were complicated and time-consuming


It is important to keep these time constraints in mind and to not get


sidetracked into an uncomfortable situation in which a missed


deadline results in an interruption of service.


Sticking with the European regulator should make these


but staying a member of the European safety agency


The main issue is the financial contribution that would


still need to be made within and into a European establishment.


It is also the issue of oversight of the outer


framework and the rules, which currently sits with other


European institutions and predominantly the ECJ.


This is where aerospace's problems start to sound familiar again.


with European Court of Justice oversight,


a respected European rule book that actually UK


expertise has played a substantial part in devising,


and a deadline to figure out what might or could take its place.


If we don't have a transitional arrangement, and if we aren't


a member of the EU as part of that transitional arrangement,


then we have chaos, because we don't have a system to ensure


that our products are safe and secure to fly and a regime


that is acknowledged around the world.


I'm joined now by MEP Jacqueline Foster and by


Good evening to the both of you. Jacqueline, how can we be part of


the open skies regime after we exit the EU, when it is overseen by the


European Court of Justice and Theresa May has made it clear she


did not want to be incumbent by any ruling from the ECJ. Two separate


issues here, open skies are service agreements, what the piece was about


was twofold, it was about the role of the European aviation safety


agency, and how we comply with the rules that are laid down there, and


when we certify the goods from the aerospace manufacturers. And open


skies, where we look at the airlines, is about the arrangements


we will have with countries, dearly for traffic flight, to fly from the


UK, both into Europe and obviously to other countries around the world.


Yes, two separate things, but open skies, open skies are governed by


the European Court of Justice, and so therefore, we are in a situation


where Theresa May says we will not be involved in it, you have two of


I'd buy that to be part of the open skies policy. No, I think you are


wrong here, we are talking about service agreements, and the European


Court of Justice, the reference to the European Court of Justice, is


when we are talking about compliance to the European aviation safety


agency, which does not deal with air service agreements and open skies.


These are two different things. They are separate bodies. The European


aviation safety agency is one thing, but the open skies policy, your


understanding is that it comes under the ECJ. I take everything back to


the customer, the customer need safe aviation and the customer needs


competitive aviation, and dynamic growth of networks in Europe, which


is what 40 years of being involved in Europe has done, brought together


those two elements so that they are not separate. Will be part of open


skies, when we exit the EU? If there was a plan, I would be delighted to


be involved in it, post-election it seems the Department for Transport


has largely closed down communication with organisations


like ERAA in order to have discussions about where you are


going, the only doors for discussion open appear to be doors in Brussels.


We will not automatically be a member of the safety agency, after


EU exit, is that correct? That is my understanding and that is the


understanding of the airlines as well. But it is inevitably's


interests. I have got to challenge him on the is making. It is in


everybody's interests to carry on as tariff free as possible, lots of


other European countries want it to happen, it is not a case of what


them wanting to lock us out. We have had 260 million journeys last year,


which depend upon this freedom and liberalisation. At the same time,


you have got to recognise that the number of seats that the UK has in


Europe are around 12% of the total. There is an 88% that can get on with


its business. Can I put it to you, Jacqueline Foster, we are not


automatically going to be part of the European safety agency. I


disagree, we will remain part of it, because we are not looking to form


some other agency, there are other countries who are part of that


agency, compliant with it, not members of the European Union...


Norway... The fact that we manufactured goods here, the wings


for a bus, Rolls-Royce engines, there will not be a tariff issue


either, and those goods will continue to be certified in the


European aviation safety agency. When we come to the open skies, I am


afraid your other guest is extremely negative, what we need to do, what


we clearly need to do, because we will not be part of the EU in terms


of open skies, we need to have an arrangement, UK EU, then we will


revert back to bilaterals when we are looking at the United States, or


being part of an open skies agreement. We have had bilateral and


multilateral agreements since 1944, under the Chicago Convention, and


therefore, with political will, and there is a lot of discussion, I have


to take on board and challenge the comments your guest has made,


discussions have been taking place, with people like me, I am a


transport spokesman, I specialise in this area, the commission want a


transition, the ministers want a smooth transition, politicians want


a smooth transition. My guest in the studio here in London... Speed is of


the essence. The airline vote with their feet, last week, easyJet has


registered, taken of the UK AOC 100 plus aeroplanes, and put them in and


AOC in Austria, they are not waiting for government decisions, they are


deciding to move business to Europe. -- an AOC.


All week there have been celebrations and commemorations


of the moment 50 years ago when the Sexual Offences Act


decriminalised homosexual acts in private between consenting


What it wasn't was full emancipation, or a magic bullet


that changed attitudes, prejudices and created


That has been a slower and, for many, a painful journey.


Now, LGBT people are more comfortable in their skin.


But to say that homophobia doesn't exist, or that there is


discrimination below the surface would be wrong.


Matthew Todd, the former editor of Attitude magazine, brought


out his book Straight Jacket: How to be Gay and Happy


This is his film for Newsnight about the mental health issues


he says are still crippling too many LGBT people.


VOICEOVER: Decriminalisation, adoption rights, equal marriage,


Britain's LGBT community has come a long way over the past 50 years.


But, despite this, LGBT people still suffer with higher levels of


depression, anxiety, addictions and suicide, I know, because I am one of


them. Soho used to be a place I would come to to get out of my head.


Today, in recovery, I am more likely to be here, sipping a cup of herbal


tea. Why is it that so many LGBT people suffer with mental health


problems? In my experience, these problems are never far away. Rob God


was a man I worked with briefly at Attitude magazine, in 2013, aged 34,


he took his own life. -- Rob Goddard. He was massively


gregarious, he was a central part of every social situation. He had


thousands of friends. With those real highs, came the very big lows,


as well. He partied quite heavily, he did recreational drugs, he found


a cert in utopia within that environment, he could just be


himself and nobody would care. -- certain utopia. You said he was not


happy being gay. He was fiercely proud of being gay, he never hid it,


at all. Not from anyone, did he. But I think that had a negative effect


on him. I remember a time when he was sat at the back of a bus, early


hours of the morning, with his boyfriend at the time, his head on


his shoulder, back from a club, something like that, on the bus, on


the way home, laid his head against his shoulder, and he was beaten up


for it. He asked the driver of the bus to step in, the driver of the


bus was very negative towards him. And kind of... Essentially said, if


you put yourself into this position, by being outwardly gay, then you


deserve what you get. Just months before he died, Rob had a psychotic


episode after ingesting window cleaner and other substances, he


ended up breaking his own leg. He was smashing his leg against the


wall, there was blood everywhere, he was in hospital for a while, I did


go to see him. And he was so sorry at what had happened. He said it was


the drugs, he said that it was like fighting an army. In the bedroom.


Powerful drugs like crystal meth and JBL are increasingly popular in the


gay male community. The only LGBT specific drugs and alcohol service,


capital at antidote, has seen a big rise in people seeking help. -- GBL.


Some people would say, they are using drugs, no big deal, not the


end of the world, but it can destroy lives. Lost relationships, lost


homes, lost jobs, not those people, it has a devastating effect on


people's mental health, I think it is important we start looking at


some of those underlying issues that, you know, that people are


using drugs. Low self-esteem, the feeling of not being good enough.


The loneliness and isolation, as well, that some people can feel.


Young people still struggle, staggeringly, Stonewall recently


found that nearly half of young trans people have attempted suicide.


Amy, a 19-year-old from Coventry, was bullied to the point where she


considered taking her own life. Started off with low-level verbal


comments, and then the physical bullying. I was being pushed around,


I was having things thrown at me, because of my gender identity.


Things thrown at me, books, pens, rulers... This behaviour and


bullying was affecting me, and it was not being tackled by the


teacher, and that legitimised it, it gave them the power to do the


actions, we will not get in trouble for it. Legitimised it in my head.


If this is happening and it is not being tackled, then maybe I am not


worth this, maybe I am a lover person. If I could just end it, I


thought, then I would not be able -- would not have to put up with the


abuse and the bullying, it would stop full and if that was the only


thing that I could do to get it to stop, that was the only thing left,


I felt like I could control it. Good evening, and welcome. Talking is


something we have not done enough of, a change of scene is a monthly


discussion group for gay and bisexual men to share life


experiences, often for the first time. You need to be out and proud


and happy, look how fabulous we are, we go out and we have fun. -- A


Change of Scene. There is an image, a general image, within the gay


community, that we feel we have two project. You may ridicule gay men,


but you cannot would it kill my lifestyle... I feel I need to show


something that I am OK to be me, but of course, for me to actually make


so much effort to do that, deep down, of course, there is


insecurity. I don't feel like we have moved beyond the position of


defending our right to exist yet, my experience as a gay man is very much


about proving my right to be who I am, now, still, before having the


luxury to reflect on how I can be a healthy, joyous version of that.


APPLAUSE This is not just a gay issue, when


society fails to support LGBT children, whole families are


devastated, it is time that we all woke up to this mental health


crisis. We're in the midst of Prom season


and tomorrow there's a new treat, It's a concert created for children


and adults with autism and learning disabilities,


and others with sensory impairments. Eva Stewart, piccolo player


for the BBC National Orchestra of Wales, is here to perform


the Flight of the Bumblebee. But she's saving her costume


for tomorrow(!) MUSIC: Flight of the Bumblebee


by Rimsky-Korsakov Hello, again, really is going to be


a mixed bag this weekend, overnight rain in England and Wales moving


through the English Channel by the morning, starting to push north


again, into southern parts of England and Wales, especially


through the afternoon, sleight of dry weather with sunshine and one or




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