28/07/2017 Newsnight

To be deemed safe, cladding systems are meant to survive

Today, we learned Grenfell's lasted just nine.

82 other buildings use a design that's similar

Also tonight, we're used to being on the wing

to Europe in our millions, but when we leave the EU, will we be

forced to go into reverse, or even be grounded?

If we do not have a transitional arrangement and if we are not a

member of the EU as part of that transitional arrangement, then we

have chaos. And ahead of tomorrow's first-ever

Relaxed Prom for people with learning difficulties

and sensory impairments, MUSIC: Flight of the Bumblebee

by Rimsky-Korsakov In the six weeks since

the fire that turned Grenfell Tower into a tinderbox

and killed at least 80 people and injured almost as many again,

there have been a variety of tests on the insulation and cladding

of other buildings. There have been evacuations

from high-rises, and remedial work carried out in buildings

all over the country. But today the government revealed

that the fire test on exactly the combination used

in Grenfell Tower Cladding meant to resist

fire for 40 minutes, in the test, burned

in just nine minutes. There are also 82

buildings with cladding Here's our policy

editor Chris Cook. Over the past weeks what the

government has been doing is not testing cladding, but auditing

cladding and when we hear about hundreds of buildings failing tests

it means the government has ascertained they are buildings where

they need to work out whether they are dangerous because the thing to

know, you might have non-combustible material on the side of the building

that it can be safely used in combination with the right materials

and so the government is running six huge tests where it will mock-up

designs with different combinations of cladding and it works out which

are safe and we started today with a combination used at Grenfell.

We thought we knew what happened at Grenfell. The importance of doing

the test on Grenfell, which was not safe, we ascertained in laboratory

conditions it did not work. It tells us 82 other buildings with similar

designs are flawed. 37 of them privately owned. It tells us it is

implausible that a developer could, following the letter of the law,

could have got the stuff through under the building regulations. We

made a film to help you understand more about the test.

Tbe only way to test the fire safety of a cladding design properly

is to rig up your design and then try to set fire to it.

Last week, Newsnight was permitted to film preparations for such a test

on cladding like that used at Grenfell Tower.

So plastic foam insulation on the inside, aluminium panels

We visited before the aluminium panels had been put up.

So what's underneath those aluminium panels?

Well, first of all, the stuff under the foil here,

In this case, so-called PIR insulation.

It's a plastic foam, it's the kind of stuff

Now, importantly, this stuff here, this yellow stuff, that's

It's supposed to stop the fire from going horizontally

These black strips here, those are intumescent

What happens with these is that if there is a fire

in this bit of insulation, they will heat up, expand

and they will stop the fire from going up the building.

But the thing is, both the horizontal firebreak

and the vertical firebreak rely on the aluminium cladding

on the outside, because otherwise the fire can just go around them.

This really is a system that's being tested, not just a group

Well, we weren't allowed anywhere near and the government hasn't

So here's a graph showing the temperature measured by one

instrument in the cladding as the test wore on.

At three minutes, the scientists noted...

The colour of the panels has changed from white to dark grey.

Sporadic flaming from the top of the rig.

Flaming several metres beyond the top of the rig.

To pass this test, the rig is supposed to last

This result implies the design, not poor insulation or bad luck,

This result implies the design, not poor installation or bad luck,

These materials didn't meet the required standards

How this design got signed off is a critical question

and not just at Grenfell - also in the 82 buildings that have

been told that this test means their cladding

Within the past few minutes, President Trump has announced

on Twitter that he has appointed a new White House chief of staff.

He's the former secretary of homeland security, John F Kelly.

It's not clear whether Mr Kelly's predecessor, Reince Preibus,

It's not clear whether Mr Kelly's predecessor, Reince Priebus,

This follows the apparent failure last night of Republican attempts

Joining me to unpack all this is Politico's Daniel Lippman.

Good evening, within the last few minutes, CNN reports that Reince

Priebus resigned privately yesterday. What do you know about

what has been happening? There are conflicting reports on that. Sources

close to Reince Priebus said he resigned in the White House sources

said he was fired today. He was seen on Air Force One travelling with the

president today and we do not know what happened. The broader issue is

that this underscores that the White House chaos in the west wing has

continued. Reince Priebus, his leaving the White House is not going

to stop that. He was not the biggest problem in the White House. Let's

talk about Priebus. He was the Republicans' point man. An insider,

Republican insider in this slightly strange west wing we have now and

Donald Trump has edged him out. Was there any question it was to do with

the failure to get the affordable care vote repeals last night, which

Priebus was tasked with doing? Even before the health care failure last

night, Reince Priebus was on thin ice, because the President's

advisers, in his family, they were not happy with his performance.

Reince Priebus has promised to be an establishment figure who could get

Capitol Hill to follow what Trump wanted and even if the health care

bill had passed, Reince Priebus would still probably be out of his

job. I think Reince Priebus did not perform to heroin's expectations

because it is hard to manage a White House like the one President Trump

has. We have a situation where it might look like Steve Bannon has won

but Anthony Scaramucci is coruscating about Steve Bannon, who

according to the New Yorker had an extraordinary conversation with

expletives and denigrating things to say about Priebus. Reince Priebus

never fully meshed with Trump and Scaramucci is kind of a mini Trump.

And is... He has been told by people close to him to quiet down his

media, because generally as communications director for the

White House, you are not supposed to publicly trash fellow advisers and

colleagues at work. Scaramucci was the whole story this week and Trump

does not like being supplanted as the number one media celebrity in

politics in DC. I think Steve Bannon is safer the White House, he will

not get fired or resign because he has a closer relationship with the

president the Reince Priebus ever had. Thanks.

Since we joined the EU, we have enjoyed pretty much unfettered air

travel to European Union destinations - give or take

In fact, the Office of National Statistics reported that,

last year, there was a record total of 14.7 million visits to Spain

alone by UK residents - the vast majority of

But when we exit the EU, if we leave the European

industry and safety bodies - as seems to be the plan -

Here's our business editor Helen Thomas.

For decades, we've been taking flight to an ever-increasing

But as we migrate towards Brexit, there are warnings

If we're not careful, could we find ourselves, well, flightless?

Ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon, it's a great

The boss of Ryanair has been vocal about the risks to our getaways.

There is a real prospect and we need to deal with this,

that there is going to be no flights between the UK and Europe

for a period of weeks, months, beyond March 2019.

He wants the UK to stay in Europe's existing open skies agreement that

He says we're running out of time to negotiate an alternative.

The industry that makes the planes has its worries, too.

Aeromet manufactures 45,000 fuel connectors for Airbus each year.

From here in Rochester they go to Wales to become part of wings,

then on to Toulouse, where the planes are assembled.

The aerospace industry has some familiar concerns.

It wants hassle-free trade with no tariffs or delays for complex

But, there is a more fundamental problem.

The safety regime that underpins everything

from parts to planes, to pilots to maintenance,

And that has the potential to ground the industry.

That safety regime is the work of the European Aviation Safety Agency.

The boss of the UK's aerospace industry body says it's

We are very clear that we wish to remain a member of

the European Aviation Safety Agency and we don't believe

that there is a viable alternative that can be up and running

ADS reckons it could take five to ten years and 300 extra

staff to equip the UK's Civil Aviation Authority

And we may still need a transition period where we stay very

When we cease to be an EU member, we need to have in place a whole

So, for us, the transition period is important and it's important that

during that period we remain an EU member.

Really, it's about providing our international colleagues,

particularly the US, with confidence that

the new regulatory regime that we are going to operate

is capable of meeting the high safety and security

The challenge is we don't know what that is going to look like.

So how complicated is it to secure our freedom to fly?

Countries like Norway or Switzerland are part

of the European safety agency, but outside the EU.

But they also have bilateral agreements with places like the US.

Without a safety regime that is recognised by the rest

of the world, the UK could find itself left on the ground.

This isn't just general griping about the cost

and disruption of Brexit, it's a very specific problem.

And it's not one that can be sold just by the UK and Europe.

It requires input from regulators around the world.

By some estimates, that work could take 18 months to make sure

that we can keep flying after departure from the EU.

And that's even if we stay part of the European safety body.

The clock is most definitely ticking.

The head of America's Federal aviation administration said in June

that discussions with the UK Government had started,

but he added they were complicated and time-consuming

It is important to keep these time constraints in mind and to not get

sidetracked into an uncomfortable situation in which a missed

deadline results in an interruption of service.

Sticking with the European regulator should make these

but staying a member of the European safety agency

The main issue is the financial contribution that would

still need to be made within and into a European establishment.

It is also the issue of oversight of the outer

framework and the rules, which currently sits with other

European institutions and predominantly the ECJ.

This is where aerospace's problems start to sound familiar again.

with European Court of Justice oversight,

a respected European rule book that actually UK

expertise has played a substantial part in devising,

and a deadline to figure out what might or could take its place.

If we don't have a transitional arrangement, and if we aren't

a member of the EU as part of that transitional arrangement,

then we have chaos, because we don't have a system to ensure

that our products are safe and secure to fly and a regime

that is acknowledged around the world.

I'm joined now by MEP Jacqueline Foster and by

Good evening to the both of you. Jacqueline, how can we be part of

the open skies regime after we exit the EU, when it is overseen by the

European Court of Justice and Theresa May has made it clear she

did not want to be incumbent by any ruling from the ECJ. Two separate

issues here, open skies are service agreements, what the piece was about

was twofold, it was about the role of the European aviation safety

agency, and how we comply with the rules that are laid down there, and

when we certify the goods from the aerospace manufacturers. And open

skies, where we look at the airlines, is about the arrangements

we will have with countries, dearly for traffic flight, to fly from the

UK, both into Europe and obviously to other countries around the world.

Yes, two separate things, but open skies, open skies are governed by

the European Court of Justice, and so therefore, we are in a situation

where Theresa May says we will not be involved in it, you have two of

I'd buy that to be part of the open skies policy. No, I think you are

wrong here, we are talking about service agreements, and the European

Court of Justice, the reference to the European Court of Justice, is

when we are talking about compliance to the European aviation safety

agency, which does not deal with air service agreements and open skies.

These are two different things. They are separate bodies. The European

aviation safety agency is one thing, but the open skies policy, your

understanding is that it comes under the ECJ. I take everything back to

the customer, the customer need safe aviation and the customer needs

competitive aviation, and dynamic growth of networks in Europe, which

is what 40 years of being involved in Europe has done, brought together

those two elements so that they are not separate. Will be part of open

skies, when we exit the EU? If there was a plan, I would be delighted to

be involved in it, post-election it seems the Department for Transport

has largely closed down communication with organisations

like ERAA in order to have discussions about where you are

going, the only doors for discussion open appear to be doors in Brussels.

We will not automatically be a member of the safety agency, after

EU exit, is that correct? That is my understanding and that is the

understanding of the airlines as well. But it is inevitably's

interests. I have got to challenge him on the is making. It is in

everybody's interests to carry on as tariff free as possible, lots of

other European countries want it to happen, it is not a case of what

them wanting to lock us out. We have had 260 million journeys last year,

which depend upon this freedom and liberalisation. At the same time,

you have got to recognise that the number of seats that the UK has in

Europe are around 12% of the total. There is an 88% that can get on with

its business. Can I put it to you, Jacqueline Foster, we are not

automatically going to be part of the European safety agency. I

disagree, we will remain part of it, because we are not looking to form

some other agency, there are other countries who are part of that

agency, compliant with it, not members of the European Union...

Norway... The fact that we manufactured goods here, the wings

for a bus, Rolls-Royce engines, there will not be a tariff issue

either, and those goods will continue to be certified in the

European aviation safety agency. When we come to the open skies, I am

afraid your other guest is extremely negative, what we need to do, what

we clearly need to do, because we will not be part of the EU in terms

of open skies, we need to have an arrangement, UK EU, then we will

revert back to bilaterals when we are looking at the United States, or

being part of an open skies agreement. We have had bilateral and

multilateral agreements since 1944, under the Chicago Convention, and

therefore, with political will, and there is a lot of discussion, I have

to take on board and challenge the comments your guest has made,

discussions have been taking place, with people like me, I am a

transport spokesman, I specialise in this area, the commission want a

transition, the ministers want a smooth transition, politicians want

a smooth transition. My guest in the studio here in London... Speed is of

the essence. The airline vote with their feet, last week, easyJet has

registered, taken of the UK AOC 100 plus aeroplanes, and put them in and

AOC in Austria, they are not waiting for government decisions, they are

deciding to move business to Europe. -- an AOC.

All week there have been celebrations and commemorations

of the moment 50 years ago when the Sexual Offences Act

decriminalised homosexual acts in private between consenting

What it wasn't was full emancipation, or a magic bullet

that changed attitudes, prejudices and created

That has been a slower and, for many, a painful journey.

Now, LGBT people are more comfortable in their skin.

But to say that homophobia doesn't exist, or that there is

discrimination below the surface would be wrong.

Matthew Todd, the former editor of Attitude magazine, brought

out his book Straight Jacket: How to be Gay and Happy

This is his film for Newsnight about the mental health issues

he says are still crippling too many LGBT people.

VOICEOVER: Decriminalisation, adoption rights, equal marriage,

Britain's LGBT community has come a long way over the past 50 years.

But, despite this, LGBT people still suffer with higher levels of

depression, anxiety, addictions and suicide, I know, because I am one of

them. Soho used to be a place I would come to to get out of my head.

Today, in recovery, I am more likely to be here, sipping a cup of herbal

tea. Why is it that so many LGBT people suffer with mental health

problems? In my experience, these problems are never far away. Rob God

was a man I worked with briefly at Attitude magazine, in 2013, aged 34,

he took his own life. -- Rob Goddard. He was massively

gregarious, he was a central part of every social situation. He had

thousands of friends. With those real highs, came the very big lows,

as well. He partied quite heavily, he did recreational drugs, he found

a cert in utopia within that environment, he could just be

himself and nobody would care. -- certain utopia. You said he was not

happy being gay. He was fiercely proud of being gay, he never hid it,

at all. Not from anyone, did he. But I think that had a negative effect

on him. I remember a time when he was sat at the back of a bus, early

hours of the morning, with his boyfriend at the time, his head on

his shoulder, back from a club, something like that, on the bus, on

the way home, laid his head against his shoulder, and he was beaten up

for it. He asked the driver of the bus to step in, the driver of the

bus was very negative towards him. And kind of... Essentially said, if

you put yourself into this position, by being outwardly gay, then you

deserve what you get. Just months before he died, Rob had a psychotic

episode after ingesting window cleaner and other substances, he

ended up breaking his own leg. He was smashing his leg against the

wall, there was blood everywhere, he was in hospital for a while, I did

go to see him. And he was so sorry at what had happened. He said it was

the drugs, he said that it was like fighting an army. In the bedroom.

Powerful drugs like crystal meth and JBL are increasingly popular in the

gay male community. The only LGBT specific drugs and alcohol service,

capital at antidote, has seen a big rise in people seeking help. -- GBL.

Some people would say, they are using drugs, no big deal, not the

end of the world, but it can destroy lives. Lost relationships, lost

homes, lost jobs, not those people, it has a devastating effect on

people's mental health, I think it is important we start looking at

some of those underlying issues that, you know, that people are

using drugs. Low self-esteem, the feeling of not being good enough.

The loneliness and isolation, as well, that some people can feel.

Young people still struggle, staggeringly, Stonewall recently

found that nearly half of young trans people have attempted suicide.

Amy, a 19-year-old from Coventry, was bullied to the point where she

considered taking her own life. Started off with low-level verbal

comments, and then the physical bullying. I was being pushed around,

I was having things thrown at me, because of my gender identity.

Things thrown at me, books, pens, rulers... This behaviour and

bullying was affecting me, and it was not being tackled by the

teacher, and that legitimised it, it gave them the power to do the

actions, we will not get in trouble for it. Legitimised it in my head.

If this is happening and it is not being tackled, then maybe I am not

worth this, maybe I am a lover person. If I could just end it, I

thought, then I would not be able -- would not have to put up with the

abuse and the bullying, it would stop full and if that was the only

thing that I could do to get it to stop, that was the only thing left,

I felt like I could control it. Good evening, and welcome. Talking is

something we have not done enough of, a change of scene is a monthly

discussion group for gay and bisexual men to share life

experiences, often for the first time. You need to be out and proud

and happy, look how fabulous we are, we go out and we have fun. -- A

Change of Scene. There is an image, a general image, within the gay

community, that we feel we have two project. You may ridicule gay men,

but you cannot would it kill my lifestyle... I feel I need to show

something that I am OK to be me, but of course, for me to actually make

so much effort to do that, deep down, of course, there is

insecurity. I don't feel like we have moved beyond the position of

defending our right to exist yet, my experience as a gay man is very much

about proving my right to be who I am, now, still, before having the

luxury to reflect on how I can be a healthy, joyous version of that.

APPLAUSE This is not just a gay issue, when

society fails to support LGBT children, whole families are

devastated, it is time that we all woke up to this mental health

crisis. We're in the midst of Prom season

and tomorrow there's a new treat, It's a concert created for children

and adults with autism and learning disabilities,

and others with sensory impairments. Eva Stewart, piccolo player

for the BBC National Orchestra of Wales, is here to perform

the Flight of the Bumblebee. But she's saving her costume

for tomorrow(!) MUSIC: Flight of the Bumblebee

by Rimsky-Korsakov Hello, again, really is going to be

a mixed bag this weekend, overnight rain in England and Wales moving

through the English Channel by the morning, starting to push north

again, into southern parts of England and Wales, especially

through the afternoon, sleight of dry weather with sunshine and one or

two