31/07/2017 Newsnight


31/07/2017

More Trump sackings. Where will the next war come from? The death of Anita Roddick. Kids Company. Diana. With Evan Davis.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 31/07/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

I'm here to serve at the discretion of the President.

:00:00.:00:08.

If he wants me to leave tomorrow, then I'm not

:00:09.:00:10.

There's never a dull moment in this White House, but the sacking

:00:11.:00:16.

of the communications director Anthony Scarramucci,

:00:17.:00:18.

after just ten days in post, could be a sign that the grown-ups

:00:19.:00:22.

are imposing themselves. We'll ask the editor in chief

:00:23.:00:25.

of Slate Magazine if Trump's new Chief of Staff is bringing

:00:26.:00:28.

From Russia.. Without much love.

:00:29.:00:40.

To North Korea with a fair bit of hate.

:00:41.:00:43.

Is it right to think the world is at an unusually

:00:44.:00:47.

We'll take stock tonight and ask the big question -

:00:48.:00:54.

Is it wrong to broadcast the private conversations of Princess Diana?

:00:55.:00:59.

Ten years ago, Anita Roddick, the environmentalist and founder

:01:00.:01:03.

of the Body Shop died, one of the most high-profile victims

:01:04.:01:07.

We hear from her daughter Sam for the first time.

:01:08.:01:13.

She was pretty clear that she got it through

:01:14.:01:17.

I could really hear the vulnerability in her voice, because

:01:18.:01:23.

Well, the story tonight is either that the White House is imploding

:01:24.:01:39.

or that it is getting itself into shape.

:01:40.:01:41.

We won't know for a while, but we do know that Anthony Scarramucci,

:01:42.:01:44.

who had made such a mark in his few days as communications

:01:45.:01:47.

US media reporting that the new Chief of

:01:48.:01:52.

Mr Scarramucci spun it with more grace than had been evident in most

:01:53.:01:58.

He felt it was best to give the new Chief of Staff John Kelly

:01:59.:02:04.

a clean slate and the ability to build his own team,

:02:05.:02:06.

At the end of a turbulent week it does seem that President Trump has

:02:07.:02:12.

yielded to the argument that stability is better than chaos.

:02:13.:02:14.

You're here to stay? We'll see, I'm here to serve at the discretion of

:02:15.:02:23.

the president. If he wants me to leave tomorrow then I'm not going to

:02:24.:02:28.

be here to stay. Anthony Scaramucci is an excommunications director.

:02:29.:02:32.

This interview from the White House was recorded earlier today. So the

:02:33.:02:36.

Chief of Staff was literally sworn in about 52 minutes ago, so he is

:02:37.:02:43.

setting in place the procedures by which he will run the White House

:02:44.:02:47.

internally. Where Anthony fits into that you would have to ask general

:02:48.:02:52.

Kelly. Let's give him more than 52 minutes and find out later in the

:02:53.:02:57.

week. We didn't need that long. I love the president. And I'm very,

:02:58.:03:01.

very loyal to the president. When Mr Scaramucci got the job ten days ago,

:03:02.:03:05.

the White House press secretary, Sean Spicer resigned over that

:03:06.:03:11.

appointment. Then last week, Mr Scaramucci publicly the then White

:03:12.:03:21.

House Chief of Chief of Staff. He was replaced last week. That was

:03:22.:03:28.

seen as a win for Mr Scaramucci. But Mr Priebes's replacement, general

:03:29.:03:32.

John Kelly's demappeded Mr Scaramucci's removal in turn. Mr

:03:33.:03:37.

Scaramucci's attack last week may have made that an easier sale. The

:03:38.:03:42.

president certainly felt that Anthony's comments were

:03:43.:03:46.

inappropriate for a person in that position. He didn't want to burden

:03:47.:03:52.

General Kelly also with that line of succession. Mr Scaramucci was

:03:53.:04:03.

actually the second communications director, following Mike Dubcic who

:04:04.:04:07.

resigned in June. And this is the second National Security Adviser,

:04:08.:04:11.

the first, Mike Flynn, resigned after misleading the Vice President

:04:12.:04:14.

on issues around the Russian influence scandal. Irritation with

:04:15.:04:19.

the investigation into that scandal eventually led to President Trump

:04:20.:04:24.

firing the FBI director, James Comey. We also know the president

:04:25.:04:32.

may about be about to fire his Attorney-General Jeff Sessions

:04:33.:04:35.

because he recuesed himself from that investigation. Maybe General

:04:36.:04:38.

Kelly will make the White House work. But they've had a humiliation

:04:39.:04:42.

on health care in Congress, that Russian links investigation is

:04:43.:04:45.

rumbling on and it's still not a normal White House.

:04:46.:04:53.

Our North America Editor, Jon Sopel joins us now from outside

:04:54.:04:57.

So, how many in DC saw that coming as quickly as that? I would love to

:04:58.:05:09.

tell you that we all saw that coming, the truth is I was in the

:05:10.:05:12.

White House briefing room a few hours ago, and we were sitting

:05:13.:05:15.

around shooting the breeze and saying, you know what, it all

:05:16.:05:18.

suddenly feels a very much great deal calmer, compared to last week.

:05:19.:05:21.

Donald Trump going on holiday at the end of the week for a couple of

:05:22.:05:25.

weeks. It's probably going to be a slight lull now and then probably

:05:26.:05:29.

absolutely nothing to do for a couple of weeks. Then came the flash

:05:30.:05:34.

that Anthony Scaramucci was going, note quite as quiet then. Even, we

:05:35.:05:39.

understand, that Mr Scaramucci was escorted off the premises. Ten days

:05:40.:05:43.

ago, he was seen as the answer to Donald Trump's prayers on

:05:44.:05:47.

communication and press relations. Now gone, departed. Briefly, one

:05:48.:05:52.

should say this is incredibly absorbing. Every minute we're

:05:53.:05:57.

talking about the personnel and comings and going, not talking about

:05:58.:06:01.

health care, defence or global problems, Paris climate deals or

:06:02.:06:05.

anything. I think that's why it is important for General Kelly to have

:06:06.:06:08.

notched up this victory today but for future victories. He wants to

:06:09.:06:12.

bring a sense of order, process, a chain of command, a proper reporting

:06:13.:06:16.

structure into the White House so that when you are dealing with

:06:17.:06:19.

issues like, I don't know, North Korea, or even domestic policy

:06:20.:06:22.

questions, you've got a White House that is pulling in One Direction not

:06:23.:06:26.

going off in different directions with everyone briefing against each

:06:27.:06:30.

other, which has been the hall mark of these past six months. Thank you

:06:31.:06:32.

very much. If you were watching on Wednesday,

:06:33.:06:41.

you would have seen what I think was the only overseas broadcast

:06:42.:06:43.

interview with Anthony Scaramucci in that post. It was our very own emity

:06:44.:06:51.

Matlis who captured that scoop. You had a close up glimpse of the chaos.

:06:52.:06:55.

Even before this happened there was a joke doing the rounds that the

:06:56.:06:59.

former apprentice boss one Donald Trump thought he had to eliminate

:07:00.:07:03.

one person each week, he somehow misunderstood the role of president.

:07:04.:07:08.

Now we're on more than one a week. I spoke to him exclusively for the BBC

:07:09.:07:11.

for Newsnight less than a week ago. There was a certain amount of chaos

:07:12.:07:16.

even then. To put it in context, I was standing pretty much where Jon

:07:17.:07:19.

was, that interview should never have happened. Scaramucci was

:07:20.:07:25.

walking past behind me, taking selfies, as is the want of Trump

:07:26.:07:30.

administration, before that infamous dinner. When I realised who it was,

:07:31.:07:34.

I pulled out my ear piece and I tried to lure him onto Newsnight. It

:07:35.:07:38.

was the thing that any journalist in my position would have done. The

:07:39.:07:41.

curious thing was that he didn't seem to need to refer upwards. He

:07:42.:07:44.

didn't ask me what I was going to ask him about. He didn't need to

:07:45.:07:47.

know how long the interview would be or what it was about. He was

:07:48.:07:50.

flattered. He came on - That's kind of what we like about the guy. As a

:07:51.:07:55.

journalist, he is about as good as it gets. When I asked about the

:07:56.:08:00.

British story of the day, the Brexit deal, chlorination chicken to coin a

:08:01.:08:06.

phrase, he fessed up, "I know nothing about your chicken story. I

:08:07.:08:11.

promise if you come back in a week's time, I will know chicken 100%."

:08:12.:08:15.

Unfortunately that won't happen. There was an impromptu and that is

:08:16.:08:20.

being kind, seat of the pants attitude, not just for me, but for

:08:21.:08:23.

him. The way it's played out, it points to a deeper structural issue

:08:24.:08:27.

about the way the White House runs. This is the curious thing. I talk to

:08:28.:08:30.

members of the Trump administration quite often, not just Scaramucci and

:08:31.:08:34.

the grown ups, shall we say, are keen to point out, they tell me,

:08:35.:08:39.

ignore the schtik. That is their way to say, there is a lot of stuff

:08:40.:08:44.

which is part hysteria, it's noise, it's the tweets, it's the press

:08:45.:08:47.

briefings, it's President Trump making a lot of noise around was

:08:48.:08:51.

going on. He says behind all that, there is actually a strategy. There

:08:52.:08:56.

is something going on smoothly beneath the surface, that the media

:08:57.:08:59.

doesn't see because the rest is entertaining. There is a sense

:09:00.:09:01.

tonight that John Kelly has come in and decided to tighten the ship. One

:09:02.:09:06.

member of the administration told me in confidence, they always get

:09:07.:09:11.

excited when they see "recognisable adult behaviour" from the Trump

:09:12.:09:13.

administration. That equates to a good day for them. Perhaps this is

:09:14.:09:19.

General Kelly's way of saying it is not enough to go round telling me

:09:20.:09:24.

like me to ignore the schtik, we have to shut down the circus, kille

:09:25.:09:30.

clowns, make the fanfare -- kill the clowns and make the fanfare go away

:09:31.:09:34.

and make people know there is a strategy to the White House. Thanks.

:09:35.:09:37.

Joining us now from New York is Jacob Weisberg -

:09:38.:09:39.

editor in chief of the online news site "Slate" and the presenter

:09:40.:09:42.

The big question is - is Kelly going to instil some discipline on this

:09:43.:09:54.

tumultuous White House? Well, first let's pause to savour for a minute

:09:55.:09:58.

what we've just been through. In your wonderful interview last week,

:09:59.:10:02.

Scaramucci said he wasn't a back stabber, he was a front stabber. But

:10:03.:10:07.

he didn't go quite so far as to say he would be a front self-stabber

:10:08.:10:13.

with such proefficiency. I mean even in this White House where the shelf

:10:14.:10:19.

life of aides seems to range between milk and yoghurt this was incredibly

:10:20.:10:25.

swift. I think General Kelly has a difficult task before him. I have no

:10:26.:10:31.

doubt that he can function effectively as a gatekeeper for

:10:32.:10:33.

Donald Trump. The question is whether President Trump will allow

:10:34.:10:37.

himself to be gate kept. We know what a strong Chief of Staff looks

:10:38.:10:41.

like in the White House and how they operate. There have been many

:10:42.:10:48.

examples over the past several presidencies. That means the

:10:49.:10:55.

president must not have separate private channels of communication

:10:56.:10:58.

and Trump has shown zero ability to do. Some of his staff has professed

:10:59.:11:03.

it as a philosophy, that chaos is a way of getting things done, smashing

:11:04.:11:07.

systems that are broken and need replacing, this is all part of

:11:08.:11:11.

disruption. Do you think Trump is persuaded, deep down persuaded, that

:11:12.:11:15.

is not the way to get things done, that you need just a bit of

:11:16.:11:20.

traditional governmental competence? No, I don't think he is persuaded. I

:11:21.:11:25.

don't know that chaos is his theory, but it works for him. Creating more

:11:26.:11:30.

chaos at the very least always changes the subject when he's in

:11:31.:11:35.

trouble from one crisis to another. I think you've seen even in the last

:11:36.:11:42.

week, which is by any standard about a chaotic as the White House has

:11:43.:11:45.

gotten. Trump tweeted this morning that there is no White House chaos.

:11:46.:11:51.

What it's done is it's removed the possibility of attention for

:11:52.:11:55.

anything other than Trump. So the Democrats tried to roll out their

:11:56.:12:03.

plan for the mid-terms, senator Schumer and Nancy Pelosi announced

:12:04.:12:07.

their better deal which is their big initiative heading towards the

:12:08.:12:11.

mid-terms. There was no oxygen left for it. I mean it was just a brief

:12:12.:12:17.

flurry because within a few hours, Trump was attacking his own

:12:18.:12:20.

Attorney-General and within a few days, he was bringing in Scaramucci

:12:21.:12:25.

and you know, there's only so much space in the news. No-one was really

:12:26.:12:29.

able to get to anything beyond Trump's chaos. No room for politics

:12:30.:12:35.

as normal. Just in terms of who's up and who's down, which are the

:12:36.:12:39.

different Donald Trumps, if you like, is going to prevail? The big

:12:40.:12:46.

question is Steve Bannon, who has been a bit quiet in the last week.

:12:47.:12:51.

Where is he out of all of this? It's funny Bannon, he got in trouble for

:12:52.:12:56.

appearing on the cover of Time magazine with the headline that

:12:57.:12:59.

suggested he was the real power rather than Trump. There's nothing

:13:00.:13:04.

riskier to do in the Trump White House than claim the lion's share of

:13:05.:13:08.

the attention. I do think Bannon has learned his lesson. I mean, he's

:13:09.:13:11.

been much less visible and prominent. There is an interesting

:13:12.:13:15.

new book about him and Trump out, but he doesn't seem to be making any

:13:16.:13:20.

effort to put himself in front of the cameras the way Anthony

:13:21.:13:22.

Scaramucci obviously was doing all of the time. So I think Bannon has

:13:23.:13:28.

hopes of survival but how he will get along with the new Chief of

:13:29.:13:33.

Staff and the various other officials, it remains to be seen.

:13:34.:13:37.

You wouldn't want to predict longevity for anybody in the White

:13:38.:13:41.

House. You would have to say Kelly is looking pretty indispensable at

:13:42.:13:45.

the moment because Trump, it would be embarrassing to lose Kelly in the

:13:46.:13:48.

next three months and the way they were talking about him at the press

:13:49.:13:52.

briefing this evening as having full authority, new structure and

:13:53.:13:55.

discipline, everybody in the White House is reporting to Kelly, you

:13:56.:13:59.

have to think now, Trump is trusting this guy. I would remain sceptical.

:14:00.:14:04.

I think Trump will do what he wants to do. I think it places limits

:14:05.:14:08.

around Trump's behaviour and probably the most important is it

:14:09.:14:13.

will make it very difficult for Trump to fire the independent

:14:14.:14:18.

counsel Robert Muller. I think Kelly would probably lay down in front of

:14:19.:14:22.

a truck on that one and Trump would be faced with the choice of

:14:23.:14:27.

embarrassingly losing his new Chief of Staff or going through with what

:14:28.:14:30.

he probably does want to do. Thanks very much.

:14:31.:14:34.

As we reflect on the movie of the moment, Dunkirk, and mark the 100th

:14:35.:14:46.

anniversary of Passchendaele, it is possible to be optimist being about

:14:47.:14:50.

the state of the world or pessimistic. Optimist being because

:14:51.:14:53.

we haven't been involved in a war on the scale of the first and Second

:14:54.:14:59.

World War in 70 years. But eeconomists use that term great

:15:00.:15:02.

moderation just before the financial crash. The quiet can foretell the

:15:03.:15:06.

storm. And it is hard not to look at world affairs right now without

:15:07.:15:10.

concern, whether it is the conflicts that have erupted in the Middle

:15:11.:15:13.

East, the deteriorating relationship between Russia and the US or the

:15:14.:15:20.

potential for a North Korean ballistic missile to strike the

:15:21.:15:21.

West. Is it time to worry? Passchendaele from the sky after the

:15:22.:15:36.

battles of the First World War. Just 80 miles from Britain, a scene of

:15:37.:15:40.

total devastation of the kind that most of us have not experienced.

:15:41.:15:45.

Today, the shape of Passchendaele is unmistakably the same yet it is now

:15:46.:15:49.

just a pleasant Belgian village, proof that the world can escape the

:15:50.:15:55.

darkness of the past. And yet new darkness can come, the world today

:15:56.:16:00.

is undeniably in a volatile and brutal phase. We will handle North

:16:01.:16:04.

Korea. We will be able to handle them.

:16:05.:16:21.

It will be handled. We handle everything. Thank you very much. No

:16:22.:16:26.

one has worked out a way to deal with the clear and present danger of

:16:27.:16:28.

North Korea, a country led by a single-minded dictator with nuclear

:16:29.:16:30.

weapons. This weekend he tested another ballistic missile, fired it

:16:31.:16:33.

in the direction of Japan and rails against the US. Is this the most

:16:34.:16:35.

foreseeable way to imagine a million or more people dying right now?

:16:36.:16:38.

Making for an unstable backdrop, the jostling of global powers. Trump

:16:39.:16:43.

blames China for not dealing with North Korea and has new problems

:16:44.:16:47.

with Putin. Each leader has something to prove, the world

:16:48.:16:51.

struggles for an equilibrium. Vice President Mike Pence was in Estonia

:16:52.:16:56.

today. No threat looms larger in the Baltic states than the spectre of

:16:57.:17:00.

aggression from your unpredictable neighbour to the east. The Cold War

:17:01.:17:08.

was of course, in the sense simple. What do I mean by that? That you had

:17:09.:17:14.

two great blocks, the Warsaw Pact on the one hand, Nato on the other,

:17:15.:17:21.

where it that compare to today? It is not so simple, it is much more

:17:22.:17:26.

complicated, there are more actors on this difficult stage and

:17:27.:17:37.

therefore, it is, in my view, more difficult to handle. For those in

:17:38.:17:40.

Syria, they're probably already feels like the end of days, conflict

:17:41.:17:44.

that has already lasted longer than world Wars one and two. The medieval

:17:45.:17:49.

violence of so-called Islamic State adds to the sense of desperation. It

:17:50.:17:54.

cannot kill on a nuclear scale but has taken terror well beyond its own

:17:55.:17:59.

territory. And Syria is just one conflict in the region that is

:18:00.:18:03.

fraught with explosive potential. First you have to know what happens

:18:04.:18:08.

when an atomic bomb explodes. Of course in the nuclear age, there

:18:09.:18:11.

have been periods of Basra we have felt that the end is nigh. Usually

:18:12.:18:16.

human beings are capable of stepping from the brink, but the danger is

:18:17.:18:21.

one thing leads to another as it did before the First World War. One

:18:22.:18:27.

problem triggers the next, reaction leads to overreaction. Care must be

:18:28.:18:34.

to ensure that what is relatively minor does not either by some intend

:18:35.:18:43.

some wire or by accident grow into something more serious and more

:18:44.:18:52.

threatening. A BBC war game exercise last year managed to arrive at a

:18:53.:18:56.

scenario of tactical nuclear weapons being used in Europe. The Americans

:18:57.:19:01.

have decided not to take our advice and have used a tactical nuclear

:19:02.:19:07.

weapons to take out a target in Russia. It would be nice to dismiss

:19:08.:19:15.

such outcomes as television talk are not the real world but the worrying

:19:16.:19:20.

thing is that the years of peace in Europe have been historical

:19:21.:19:28.

exception, rather than the norm. Let's reflect on how serious the

:19:29.:19:31.

threat to the west and the world are.

:19:32.:19:33.

James Jeffrey was deputy National Security Advisor and a US

:19:34.:19:35.

ambassador to Iraq - he's in Washington.

:19:36.:19:37.

Brian Lord was the deputy director of GCHQ, responsible for

:19:38.:19:39.

Intelligence and Cyber Operations - he's in Bristol.

:19:40.:19:41.

And Patricia Lewis is a nuclear physicist and arms control expert

:19:42.:19:44.

who is the Research Director for International Security

:19:45.:19:46.

I would like to start at Patricia maybe you can help me, do you the

:19:47.:20:00.

possibility of what one might call a big war between major powers in the

:20:01.:20:04.

world in the next 20 or 30 years? Yes I do. I see it as a possibility

:20:05.:20:09.

if we do not learn the lessons of history. So, the bad news is that it

:20:10.:20:16.

is very complicated and there are two major hotspots and there are

:20:17.:20:20.

other smaller ones. We do not quite, we never know what will Tibet off,

:20:21.:20:25.

but the good news is that we can learn from history. We do know what

:20:26.:20:28.

has happened before and we have learned a great deals of the end of

:20:29.:20:32.

the Second World War, the UN, all of its structures has helped us prevent

:20:33.:20:36.

conflict and we know almost everything we need to prevent

:20:37.:20:38.

conflict, it is a question of having the political

:20:39.:20:59.

will to do it. To people like me who feel it is inconceivable because we

:21:00.:21:02.

are too sensible now to do these silly things and let one thing led

:21:03.:21:05.

to another and trigger a war, what we would surely sit down and sorted

:21:06.:21:08.

out... That is not what human beings do. If you look through history,

:21:09.:21:10.

people make mistakes, people get angry, they often misinterpret, we

:21:11.:21:12.

have seen many occasions were something has happened and there has

:21:13.:21:14.

been an overreaction. James Jeffrey, do you basically agree with Patricia

:21:15.:21:16.

said there? Only partially. The reason we have not seen a return to

:21:17.:21:21.

the first half of the awful 20th century is that during an after

:21:22.:21:28.

World War II, the United States and the European partners added

:21:29.:21:32.

countries around the world and have created a global collective security

:21:33.:21:37.

system with financial trade, role of law and other aspects but at the

:21:38.:21:41.

centre is collective security. By won the Cold War and was dealing

:21:42.:21:46.

with regional problems such as Saddam Hussein since 1989 but now we

:21:47.:21:51.

see the rise of Russia and China who want to challenge that system and to

:21:52.:21:56.

some degree are cooperating with the regional actors such as North Korea

:21:57.:22:00.

and Iran. The whole complex of threats taken together is quite

:22:01.:22:12.

formidable. You are saying that you would link the different things, the

:22:13.:22:14.

North Korea situation, the jostling between the big powers, these are

:22:15.:22:17.

all linked in your view? Not a conspiracy against the West but that

:22:18.:22:21.

people are organising with a mind to weakening the West? There is no

:22:22.:22:27.

overall battleplan that Beijing and Moscow have agreed on, they have a

:22:28.:22:32.

common ally of interest in undercutting the American security

:22:33.:22:35.

system because it stands in the way of their alternative system which

:22:36.:22:39.

you people in Europe understand from the 19th century, it is great

:22:40.:22:42.

powers, expanding their influence until they run into another great

:22:43.:22:47.

power. That is what led to the First World War and the Second World War.

:22:48.:22:52.

We have tried over the past 70 years defied a different way forward and

:22:53.:22:55.

they are challenging that and even though they do not coordinate on

:22:56.:23:02.

every issue, there a high degree of commonality and the UN votes to

:23:03.:23:06.

block action against North Korea and Iran, and they challenge it. Brian

:23:07.:23:13.

Lord, tell us if you believe a big war is a possibility or whether

:23:14.:23:18.

you're on the more optimistic and? I think a single big war is highly

:23:19.:23:24.

unlikely but what we are seeing, I would agree that what we are seeing

:23:25.:23:27.

is a challenge of traditional western approach to the world. All

:23:28.:23:32.

we also are living through, is a world where the rigidity of Borders

:23:33.:23:38.

is being broken down by technology, trade communication, the

:23:39.:23:39.

availability of information is now no longer as controlled as it was.

:23:40.:23:45.

We have an increasingly bellicose North Korea and Russia plane its

:23:46.:23:51.

usual geopolitical games, whether it is a virtual real space or

:23:52.:23:54.

cyberspace and we have a White House which is perceived from the outside

:23:55.:23:57.

to be unusual and certainly unpredictable. What I would say is

:23:58.:24:02.

the risk of a miscalculation is extremely real and a miscalculation

:24:03.:24:07.

is in effect will have the same effect as a real conflict. Patricia

:24:08.:24:13.

made that point as well. War may itself be very different and as an

:24:14.:24:18.

expert on cyber security, one of the things we need to think about is not

:24:19.:24:21.

thinking what it looks like an 20th-century terms but potentially,

:24:22.:24:28.

is cyber the form it takes on the 21st-century? I don't think it is as

:24:29.:24:32.

binary as that, you have the ability for states to be able to use

:24:33.:24:38.

activity online to be able to exert geopolitical effect all the way

:24:39.:24:43.

through to destructive effect. One of the areas for miscalculation is

:24:44.:24:46.

we are looking at an area of the world where there are still no rules

:24:47.:24:49.

of engagement, the ability to confuse is very high and the ability

:24:50.:24:54.

to hide or deceive and put whose ever is' she want an activity is

:24:55.:25:07.

very high understanding by a public of what a cyber attack means, the

:25:08.:25:10.

lack of understanding of the capability of the reserve --

:25:11.:25:12.

adversary is very different. It all plays into this confusion which if

:25:13.:25:14.

people want to make a miscalculation or want to give the impression of

:25:15.:25:16.

making a miscalculation, just continues to increase the risk.

:25:17.:25:20.

Patricia, to me it would look like North Korea is in a different

:25:21.:25:24.

category to all the other risks, more than the Middle East, because

:25:25.:25:28.

North Korea, there is an unaccountable dictator, it is not

:25:29.:25:31.

like the former Soviet Union, there is not a system that he is a part

:25:32.:25:33.

of, it is just what he wants to has got nuclear weapons and

:25:34.:25:59.

ballistic missiles. He is not the only one with nuclear weapons and he

:26:00.:26:02.

does not have them yet, he has ballistic missiles but as far as we

:26:03.:26:05.

are all aware, he is not at the point where he can make the missiles

:26:06.:26:08.

with a warhead. There is still time to play for. North Korea is

:26:09.:26:10.

different as a country, it does not have any friends and it has many

:26:11.:26:13.

enemies. It is very unpredictable and we cannot understand what they

:26:14.:26:15.

will do. In the Middle East it is unpredictable, however and we have

:26:16.:26:18.

the West coming up against Russia, front to front, right in the middle

:26:19.:26:21.

of a battle space. As Brian said, it has got cyberspace in there as well,

:26:22.:26:23.

another set of tools. We have turmoil in the Middle East in the

:26:24.:26:26.

Gulf, we have Israel still, do not forget that, it is very potent. All

:26:27.:26:30.

of these could be the Serbia is, or the triggers. James Jeffrey, I am

:26:31.:26:35.

interested in your take on North Korea, do you see it as slightly

:26:36.:26:38.

different to some of the other risks, because the potential for

:26:39.:26:43.

massive harm is there, if they get the final formula for nuclear

:26:44.:26:49.

weapons. It is the most immediate crisis and it is very very dangerous

:26:50.:26:52.

because it does have nuclear weapons and it can at least strike with

:26:53.:26:57.

nuclear and commercial weapons the civilian population of South Korea.

:26:58.:27:02.

Yes, it is special. On the other hand, it is not something in and of

:27:03.:27:08.

itself, like Saddam Hussein in Iraq or Serbia 1015 years ago, this is a

:27:09.:27:13.

country that is enabled by China. I disagree it does not have friends,

:27:14.:27:19.

its long-range missiles are now mobile, which is very threatening

:27:20.:27:23.

because they are on Chinese trucks. Those trucks are not something they

:27:24.:27:27.

have 30 years ago, they are recent additions, the Chinese are enabling

:27:28.:27:31.

in many different ways, the North Koreans basically to use them as a

:27:32.:27:35.

chess piece against the United States and the western Pacific and

:27:36.:27:39.

that is a real danger to us and to the entire region including

:27:40.:27:42.

ultimately the Chinese. We need to leave it there. Thank you very much

:27:43.:27:45.

indeed. Plenty to worry about. Anita Roddick found international

:27:46.:27:55.

fame as the founder of the Body Shop She before anyone spotted the

:27:56.:27:58.

potential of the ethical economy - business promoting itself as having

:27:59.:28:02.

a mission bigger than making money, She built the company

:28:03.:28:05.

in an unconventional way, and her character played a huge

:28:06.:28:07.

part in its success. But she died a decade ago far

:28:08.:28:09.

too young, having been She had contracted it decades

:28:10.:28:12.

earlier from a contaminated blood transfusion received

:28:13.:28:15.

while giving birth. Well, a couple of weeks ago,

:28:16.:28:16.

the government announced that there will be an inquiry

:28:17.:28:18.

into the scandal of contaminated transfusions, an issue

:28:19.:28:21.

about which the daughter of Anita Roddick

:28:22.:28:23.

understandably feels strongly. Sam Roddick has been

:28:24.:28:25.

speaking to our special You know what, she was one in a

:28:26.:28:43.

million. She challenged the unchallengeable. She challenged the

:28:44.:28:46.

stock market, she challenged business, she challenged her peers

:28:47.:28:50.

and the way business was done and she did it in a way that was braver

:28:51.:28:57.

than whatever is in existence today. Welcome to the video... For 30 years

:28:58.:29:02.

Anita Roddick did not realise she had unknowingly contracted hepatitis

:29:03.:29:05.

C from contaminated blood. Her daughter remembers the moment her

:29:06.:29:09.

mother broke the news and explained the cause was the blood transfusion

:29:10.:29:13.

she received after complications giving birth to Sam. Got through the

:29:14.:29:20.

transfusion when I was born. And you know I could really hear the

:29:21.:29:25.

vulnerability in her voice. Because my mum really feared death. So she

:29:26.:29:31.

had a phrase which was, isn't it amazing, Sam, every year you pass

:29:32.:29:34.

the date of your death and you don't know it. Thousands of people

:29:35.:29:41.

contracted hepatitis C, some got HIV and we know about that now. To step

:29:42.:29:45.

back from it and think, she went into hospital to have a baby and she

:29:46.:29:49.

came out with this disease and did not know about a that time. For her

:29:50.:29:56.

to be able to contract that during something that was such a kind of,

:29:57.:30:03.

and normal procedure, is really sad. The strange thing is, even I felt

:30:04.:30:10.

responsible, like I, somehow, that sense, it is ironic, because you

:30:11.:30:16.

think as a baby, I can protect my mum, she was going on, she was

:30:17.:30:19.

pregnant with me. There is that first level of irrevocable,

:30:20.:30:28.

unconscious guilt, it is just ridiculous, but it still exist. And

:30:29.:30:33.

if she had found out earlier, what would that have meant? She could

:30:34.:30:40.

have had a treatment, really early, possibly at the time, but she could

:30:41.:30:43.

not have it because of her high blood trash -- blood pressure, she

:30:44.:30:49.

could not get a liver transplant, she was literally deteriorating. She

:30:50.:30:53.

was exhausted. She could have got a lot of medical assistance. Good she

:30:54.:30:58.

have survived much longer? I think she could have. Who do you blame?

:30:59.:31:06.

Personally. I love the NHS, I actually think it is the backbone of

:31:07.:31:11.

British society, I would fight for the NHS the whole time. The people

:31:12.:31:17.

who were making money out of this large pharmaceutical corporations,

:31:18.:31:21.

that is who I kind of they are the ones, who really violated good

:31:22.:31:23.

governance. Did your family think about suing?

:31:24.:31:36.

No, we aren't people who sue. The best thing we can serve is by

:31:37.:31:40.

highlighting this issue and appealing for people to come forward

:31:41.:31:43.

if they've needed or had the procedure of a blood transfusion

:31:44.:31:48.

during the dates that have been highlighted and to get tested. I

:31:49.:31:53.

personally think that anybody who has been affected who doesn't come

:31:54.:31:57.

from my financial background should sue. There has been a huge law suit

:31:58.:32:07.

in America of Bayer and a number of corporations held responsible. I

:32:08.:32:10.

mean, in the billions got paid out. The Prime Minister announced an

:32:11.:32:13.

inquiry recently into this, what was your reaction to that? There needs

:32:14.:32:18.

to be a true independent inquiry. I think it is now about stepping

:32:19.:32:23.

forward and really trying to put the pieces together about why and how

:32:24.:32:30.

this occurred and those responsible should be held accountable. I

:32:31.:32:33.

definitely believe when you actually look at the significant amount of

:32:34.:32:37.

contaminated blood, it seems impossible for there not to be an

:32:38.:32:41.

enormous number of people that this touches. It must have been

:32:42.:32:44.

incredibly painful to watch your mother deteriorate. Yeah, it was

:32:45.:32:49.

incredibly painful. It was incredibly painful to see somebody

:32:50.:32:55.

so powerful, so effective, so energetic, somebody who has a lust

:32:56.:33:00.

for life really have to face her limitations at a time where it was

:33:01.:33:06.

cut short. Like, you know, our family had a huge loss. But the

:33:07.:33:10.

world had a huge loss too. She was the first company to open up a

:33:11.:33:14.

creche in her factory, so people could breast-feed and continue on

:33:15.:33:17.

caring for their children during lunch time. I think that was, shows

:33:18.:33:22.

how she loved her workforce and wanted to create a humane

:33:23.:33:28.

environment. The fact that she changed EU law and got the Anirban

:33:29.:33:35.

of animal testing -- got the ban of animal testing in the EU showed how

:33:36.:33:39.

complished she was when she put her mind to do. All her campaigns were

:33:40.:33:43.

phenomenal, the recycling, the sourcing. She was the first person

:33:44.:33:49.

to take Fairtrade out of the charity sector and put it into the

:33:50.:33:51.

commercial environment. You don't seem to be either bitter or angry,

:33:52.:33:56.

but maybe that's just... I'm not angry. I'm sad. There's bitterness

:33:57.:34:02.

which will eat at your own soul. A part of my utilising my anger is by

:34:03.:34:08.

being available to highlight this issue and trying to encourage and

:34:09.:34:14.

support people to make those accountable be accountable. That's a

:34:15.:34:19.

really healthy way to channel your, my anger any way. Presumably you

:34:20.:34:23.

miss her every day, do you? Oh, yeah, I miss her every day.

:34:24.:34:28.

The directors of the collapsed Kids Company - including

:34:29.:34:31.

Camilla Batmangelidge and Alan Yentob - have been told

:34:32.:34:34.

that they face proceedings to bar them from serving

:34:35.:34:36.

Any such disqualification does have to be tested in the courts.

:34:37.:34:42.

Chris Cook broke the story of problems at Kids Company,

:34:43.:34:45.

What did we learn exactly today. We know that the eight final directors

:34:46.:34:55.

at kids company, plus Camilla Batmangelidge, who wasn't director

:34:56.:34:59.

at the time, will be all considered culpable for the collapse of the

:35:00.:35:02.

charity and way it was run. They face between two-and-a-half and six

:35:03.:35:07.

years, if the process goes through, disqualified from being able to hold

:35:08.:35:10.

offices of responsibility in relation to companies. It's quite a

:35:11.:35:15.

serious process. If they get someone to act on their behalf, that person

:35:16.:35:22.

can get disqualified. It reflects the serious problems at the charity.

:35:23.:35:25.

If you look down the list of things you can be disqualified for, there

:35:26.:35:29.

are a few things you can tick off. Terrible record keeping. They

:35:30.:35:36.

claimed to have 15,000 clients. We still only have records of around

:35:37.:35:41.

2,000. They used to run what they referred to as the bully strategy,

:35:42.:35:47.

telling people if you don't put us money we'll collapse and what will

:35:48.:35:52.

happen to the children. The gap between the trading while insolvent,

:35:53.:35:55.

which gets you disqualified is pretty thin. Is it normal for

:35:56.:36:00.

Charity Trustees or directors to be told they can't run companies? Is it

:36:01.:36:04.

fair take someone running a charity and apply this sanction? If we want

:36:05.:36:07.

charities to have real responsibility it probably is fair.

:36:08.:36:10.

You can't have a situation where people are allowed to do this as a

:36:11.:36:14.

hobby job and it has no consequences. The charities do

:36:15.:36:17.

really matter. You think large charities like kids company, which

:36:18.:36:21.

got ?47 million of public money, this is not a trivial thing. The

:36:22.:36:25.

role it played in people's lives isn't trivial. The trustees have to

:36:26.:36:28.

take it seriously. Thank you very much.

:36:29.:36:30.

Is it right that details of the sexual relations of Charles

:36:31.:36:33.

Channel 4 is controversially poised to play recordings

:36:34.:36:36.

of Diana talking in detail about the breakdown of her marriage

:36:37.:36:40.

Diana was preparing for her interview on Panorama,

:36:41.:36:46.

but the tapes go further than the programme itself.

:36:47.:36:48.

But is Diana entitled to some kind of privacy in death,

:36:49.:36:51.

of a kind that she was rarely accorded in life?

:36:52.:36:54.

With me now are the historian and biographer, Tracy Borman,

:36:55.:36:57.

and the Guardian columnist Dawn Foster.

:36:58.:37:01.

I think you think Channel 4 are right to basically show these tapes

:37:02.:37:07.

and give us the full story. Why do you think so? I think first of all,

:37:08.:37:11.

there's a really huge public interest in Diana. We saw that in

:37:12.:37:17.

19le 7. -- 1987. We see it now. People are fascinated by her, by

:37:18.:37:21.

what happened to her in life and also, exactly how different she was

:37:22.:37:26.

to the Royals. I think for me and many other people she felt stage

:37:27.:37:33.

managed in life. She felt really cloistered and bound by the Royal

:37:34.:37:37.

Family. This gives us a chance to learn more about her and what she

:37:38.:37:42.

maybe would like to have said, if she hadn't been in such a - Are

:37:43.:37:46.

people trying to stop Channel 4 doing it, are they the ones trying

:37:47.:37:51.

to control the media? Or trying to control Diana, or does it matter

:37:52.:37:55.

what Diana thought would happen to these tapes when she recorded them

:37:56.:37:58.

or what she wanted at the time? I think it's very difficult to say

:37:59.:38:03.

what she may have wanted to be put out there. In death obviously we

:38:04.:38:08.

have a huge interest in her. Equally, there's so much we don't

:38:09.:38:11.

know about her that maybe people want to know. I think the fact she

:38:12.:38:15.

was speaking to somebody else about it, preparing for Panorama and

:38:16.:38:18.

clearly wanted to get some of this out there, is maybe a hint that she

:38:19.:38:22.

wanted more of her personal life out there. Let's be honest, NBC have

:38:23.:38:27.

shown a lot of this in the States. You can track it down if you want

:38:28.:38:32.

to. It's not quite as unknown as it might be. Do you see any historical

:38:33.:38:37.

significance or anything that we'll learn from watching this Channel 4

:38:38.:38:41.

programme? As Dawn said, there isn't much new in terms of revelations.

:38:42.:38:47.

But I think the point is that they weren't necessarily intended for

:38:48.:38:51.

broadcast. I do think that it's inappropriate. Certainly when you

:38:52.:38:55.

look at them as historical documents, the National Archives

:38:56.:38:59.

wouldn't release anything unless sensitivity checks had been carried

:39:00.:39:03.

out, including the effect on living persons. Of course, there are still

:39:04.:39:08.

some significant others of Diana who this will affect deeply I think.

:39:09.:39:12.

You're thinking of the children or Charles? I'm thinking of the

:39:13.:39:18.

children more. I understand that there was talk of making a

:39:19.:39:21.

documentary of this ten years ago, it was Sheffield. The BBC --

:39:22.:39:27.

shelved. The BBC was going to look at this and then backed out when

:39:28.:39:30.

they saw the minefield it was. Does it matter to you the brother, the

:39:31.:39:34.

kids, basically everybody who does speak for Diana, who might say they

:39:35.:39:39.

do because they're nuclear family, not royalty, if they say we don't

:39:40.:39:42.

want this stuff aired in public, does that not matter in I think

:39:43.:39:48.

public interest is key here. The family themselves can protect

:39:49.:39:51.

themselves from it. Equally, when I was at university, I read James

:39:52.:39:55.

Joyce's salacious letters to his wife. He probably didn't want them

:39:56.:39:58.

to be in the public domain. But they are. They form part of what we think

:39:59.:40:03.

of Joyce as a character and a public figure. Often, what we don't expect

:40:04.:40:07.

to be in the public domain will be afterwards because there is so much

:40:08.:40:10.

public interest in people. Is there a time theme here? The national

:40:11.:40:17.

archive say there's a 30-year rule. But only when sensitivity checks are

:40:18.:40:21.

carried out. We have more and more restrictive, I mean when you look at

:40:22.:40:24.

the history of private life, the Tudors for example, they laid it all

:40:25.:40:30.

bare and gladly so. They wanted to boast about their marital relations.

:40:31.:40:33.

Like Scaramucci, say what we think. Very topical. They would have wanted

:40:34.:40:38.

their subjects to take an interest in their love lives in all forms. I

:40:39.:40:44.

wonder whether we, you keep saying public interest, it's the

:40:45.:40:47.

distinction between interest of the public and the public interest isn't

:40:48.:40:53.

it and whether there is a public interest in this. For many Diana

:40:54.:41:03.

symbolised a sea change in British history. Moving to a more open, you

:41:04.:41:07.

know tied in with the Advent of Blair. People are very interested in

:41:08.:41:10.

how she stood at the crux of history. We're going to leave it

:41:11.:41:14.

there, thank you very much for coming in.

:41:15.:41:18.

That's all for tonight. Let's finish by returning to Passchendaele. We

:41:19.:41:22.

saw a little earlier, we end with a closer up and sometimes gruesome

:41:23.:41:26.

look at what that battlefield really looked like in the summer and Autumn

:41:27.:41:31.

of 1917. The pictures are accompanied by the firemen of the

:41:32.:41:35.

town of Ypres sounding the Last Post. Good night.

:41:36.:42:27.

Hello. Get ready for more heavy showers across the UK tomorrow. Some

:42:28.:42:33.

places that stayed dry today will not tomorrow. The showers will

:42:34.:42:36.

become more widespread as

:42:37.:42:38.