01/08/2017 Newsnight


01/08/2017

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines. With Kirsty Wark.


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tonight for the violent crackdown in Venezuala.

:00:00.:00:15.

As these opposition leaders are arrested, the UN and the EU

:00:16.:00:18.

the situation, with the help of an opposition senator

:00:19.:00:24.

Fentanyl, an anaesthetic fifty times more powerful than heroin

:00:25.:00:30.

is the drug that killed the rock star Prince.

:00:31.:00:33.

Today we learned that its illicit use has killed at least sixty people

:00:34.:00:36.

already this year in one area of the county alone.

:00:37.:00:40.

We'll ask why did it take so long to realise this was going on?

:00:41.:00:45.

And Ryanair's shy and self effacing boss is warning of severe turbulence

:00:46.:00:48.

The world has finally focussed on the severity of the crisis

:00:49.:01:05.

in Venezuela following Sunday's vote to put more power in the hands

:01:06.:01:08.

of President Maduro.The lethal cocktail of violent crackdown,

:01:09.:01:10.

food shortages, spiralling inflation, rapidly draining

:01:11.:01:11.

The abduction of Opposition leaders in the middle of the night,

:01:12.:01:21.

filmed on the mobile phones of their families, will have

:01:22.:01:23.

been viewed millions of times in the country,

:01:24.:01:25.

and the international response has been overwhelmingly condemnatory.

:01:26.:01:30.

Only Cuba is standing four square behind President Maduro.

:01:31.:01:36.

Following US sanctions imposed yesterday the UN

:01:37.:01:38.

Secretary General Antonio Guterres called for urgent political

:01:39.:01:40.

negotiations between the government and the opposition to curb

:01:41.:01:42.

Vladimir Hernandez is a Venezuelan correspondent for the BBC and has

:01:43.:01:48.

this report on the crisis in his home country.

:01:49.:02:01.

In the middle of last night, in pyjamas, in front of family members,

:02:02.:02:09.

a Venezuelan opposition politician is bundled into a vehicle belonging

:02:10.:02:13.

to the intelligence services. Help, said Antonio Ledezma who has been

:02:14.:02:19.

kept under house arrest for two years for allegedly plotting against

:02:20.:02:26.

President Maduro. This is a dictatorship says this woman while

:02:27.:02:31.

Toby Jones has taken away. But the same time, and other opposition

:02:32.:02:38.

politician, Leopoldo Lopez is also arrested. He is a well-known

:02:39.:02:42.

politician who was recently put under house arrest after being

:02:43.:02:47.

imprisoned since 2015 for supposedly inciting violent acts. For half a

:02:48.:02:55.

century, Venezuela was seen as one of the most stable countries in

:02:56.:02:59.

Latin America but since Hugo Chavez was elected at the

:03:00.:03:02.

turn-of-the-century, increasingly their democratic credentials have

:03:03.:03:07.

been been called into question. The arrest last night, midst of an

:03:08.:03:10.

ongoing political battle between the successor of Hugo Chavez and plans

:03:11.:03:21.

to change the constitution. And the political instability is fuelling

:03:22.:03:25.

social unrest. In the streets, protests have been erupting since

:03:26.:03:29.

April, Venezuelans have long put up with inflation of at least 800%.

:03:30.:03:33.

Severe food and medicine shortages mean that the people are living

:03:34.:03:37.

through the worst year since that Chavez revolution. This is basically

:03:38.:03:47.

collapsed. President Maduro says that the

:03:48.:04:07.

changes to the constitution voted in on Sunday were to restore peace in

:04:08.:04:11.

the country, but here, he is also saying that with these new powers,

:04:12.:04:16.

he will seek to remove the Attorney General, a former government

:04:17.:04:20.

supporter who has now accuse the government of state terrorism, for

:04:21.:04:24.

the way it has dealt with protesters and opposition politicians.

:04:25.:04:42.

Over 100 people have died in these months of anti-government protests.

:04:43.:04:49.

Thousands more have been arrested amid heavy criticism from human

:04:50.:04:54.

rights organisations. This current wave of protests feels very

:04:55.:04:56.

different from those seen in the past years. With hunger and despair

:04:57.:05:05.

are growing, some of those involved in these demonstrations have told me

:05:06.:05:07.

there is not much to lose any more. Will Grant is a BBC

:05:08.:05:12.

Latin America correspondent First of all can I ask you, or

:05:13.:05:25.

whether you know were people built where the opposition leaders are

:05:26.:05:29.

tonight? And I think he is uncertain as to whether he will be speaking

:05:30.:05:33.

just for a second so we was up to him in a moment.

:05:34.:05:36.

In a moment I'll be speaking to the Venezualuan MP

:05:37.:05:38.

Juan Mekhia, one of the leaders of the country's

:05:39.:05:40.

But first I'm joined here in the studio by Javier Farkhe -

:05:41.:05:44.

he's an activist and journalist who supports the Maduro government.

:05:45.:05:47.

Good evening to you. Thank you for having me. You have prep President

:05:48.:05:56.

Maduro, is he capable of sanctioning torture. He is hugely underestimated

:05:57.:06:01.

in terms of the way he is dealing with the situation. He has been

:06:02.:06:07.

facing protests, looting, violence, strikes, attempts to bring him

:06:08.:06:12.

down... He been arresting people and there has been tear gas, is he

:06:13.:06:20.

capable of ordering torture? No. President Maduro called for the

:06:21.:06:24.

assembly not to change the constitution but he introduced

:06:25.:06:27.

reforms because the institutions could not stay the same. But the

:06:28.:06:31.

power to appoint judges does change and people are protesting and they

:06:32.:06:34.

felt it was removing their democratic rights of the people. The

:06:35.:06:40.

judges were appointed in 2015 with the endorsement of the Attorney

:06:41.:06:44.

General who has turned his back on the government and one of the

:06:45.:06:47.

reasons that she is in trouble is that she denies she has the --

:06:48.:06:53.

anything to do with the appointment of the judges before the government

:06:54.:06:57.

to over the National Assembly. The country is practically on its knees.

:06:58.:07:03.

It is. We have a situation where there is international condemnation

:07:04.:07:08.

of what is going on in Venezuela and particularly from the UN, the

:07:09.:07:13.

bundling into cars last night of two opposition leaders, was that a

:07:14.:07:16.

mistake? It could have been handled in a different way but they had

:07:17.:07:19.

violated the conditions under which they have been put under house

:07:20.:07:23.

arrest. They were in their homes. Should they have been arrested in

:07:24.:07:28.

any case? One of the reasons they were arrested was because they

:07:29.:07:33.

violated -- Michael violated the conditions of their house arrest.

:07:34.:07:37.

First of all they called for protests which was forbidden by the

:07:38.:07:40.

government and they called for violence. There are videos which

:07:41.:07:49.

show... He actually calls for violence? You can quote that?

:07:50.:07:57.

Rebelling against the government is not calling for violence. If you're

:07:58.:08:02.

calling on the Army to do that, you're asking the Army to rebel

:08:03.:08:06.

against the government, then you are calling for a military coup, they

:08:07.:08:10.

have been doing that for a long time, ever since the failed coup of

:08:11.:08:17.

2002. Obviously, notwithstanding the oil price, and the collapse,

:08:18.:08:21.

President Maduro cannot keep a handle on what is going on in his

:08:22.:08:26.

economy, there are food shortages, people cannot move freely around the

:08:27.:08:35.

country any more, a government is not working. The government is

:08:36.:08:37.

working... It is difficult for the government to handle that situation

:08:38.:08:41.

because of low oil prices. There is little hard currency available to

:08:42.:08:45.

buy products not produced in Venezuelan. The accusation is that

:08:46.:08:51.

in the middle of all this hardship there is utter corruption. There is

:08:52.:08:55.

clear evidence in videos and images that show that convoys of food for

:08:56.:09:03.

distribution have been attacked by gangs of opposition motorcyclists.

:09:04.:09:07.

There has been a lot of speculation within the Private sectors that

:09:08.:09:12.

handles the warehouses. Why are you so sure that the combined opposition

:09:13.:09:18.

does not have the policies to relieve the situation? 60% of the

:09:19.:09:22.

people according to an opinion poll, in favour of the government, says

:09:23.:09:26.

that the opposition do not have the capacity. They have been trying to

:09:27.:09:32.

bring down the government. They do not have a clear position on the

:09:33.:09:39.

economy. Can I be clear? You back entirely President Maduro. Not at

:09:40.:09:42.

all. I think the stakes have been made, they could have dealt at

:09:43.:09:46.

better with the issue of the exchange rate, it is a big problem.

:09:47.:09:54.

Yes. At the same time, when he took office in 2013, that coincided with

:09:55.:09:57.

the drop in oil prices. No government would have been able to

:09:58.:10:03.

handle that situation better. Now we can go to our correspondent in

:10:04.:10:09.

Caracas. Will Grant, ASCII first of all tonight, we saw those pictures

:10:10.:10:12.

of the opposition leaders being bundled into cars last night by

:10:13.:10:17.

security services, we have heard a supporter of President Maduro saying

:10:18.:10:22.

that they violated their curfew at home, what has happened, do you have

:10:23.:10:27.

any idea where they are? It appears that both men are in a prison on the

:10:28.:10:36.

outskirts of Caracas. Very little more than that is known at this

:10:37.:10:40.

stage. Theoretically they need to come before a judge to hear the

:10:41.:10:45.

reasoning for their rearrest. Which, as far as we know, considering a

:10:46.:10:51.

statement was released by the government is for two reasons, one

:10:52.:10:54.

that they broke the terms according to the government of their house

:10:55.:10:59.

arrest, specifically because they released videos around this very

:11:00.:11:04.

controversial vote for a new legislative body, which they said

:11:05.:11:09.

was an appeal to people to take to the streets. Obviously that is a

:11:10.:11:13.

very controversial idea, their lawyers and families deny that, but

:11:14.:11:17.

the other reason put out by the government was that they were trying

:11:18.:11:22.

to flee. The family say that was not the case. Do we know what the mood

:11:23.:11:27.

is like tonight, not just in Caracas but other big cities? The videos of

:11:28.:11:32.

the arrest have gone around the now, presumably? In Caracas, it is

:11:33.:11:40.

extremely tense, people have been setting up barricades on the streets

:11:41.:11:43.

over the past few days, particularly on the day of the vote itself, it

:11:44.:11:49.

was extremely tense, there was a lot of nervousness, there were clashes

:11:50.:11:55.

between the security forces and ordinary people and protesters,

:11:56.:11:57.

journalists were attacked in one part of the city as well. It is an

:11:58.:12:05.

extremely strange... Unique kind of feeling on the streets at the

:12:06.:12:10.

moment. I used to live in Caracas when Hugo Chavez was in power and it

:12:11.:12:16.

is starting to feel like the rule of law is slipping compare to those

:12:17.:12:21.

days. Since then, these two men have been arrested and that adds further

:12:22.:12:26.

to the tension, particularly in areas that are controlled by the

:12:27.:12:29.

opposition. Thank you very much indeed. We had been hoping to speak

:12:30.:12:37.

to a leader of the Venezuelan opposition tonight but we had

:12:38.:12:39.

technical problems and we will return to the story again.

:12:40.:12:42.

In amongst all the claims and counter claims of the impact

:12:43.:12:45.

on our lives of Brexit, in every industry, the future

:12:46.:12:47.

of travel to some of our most loved European destinations aviation

:12:48.:12:50.

is exercising airline owners and passengers alike.

:12:51.:12:52.

And two of the most vocal airline bosses have directly opposing views.

:12:53.:12:55.

Willie Walsh, the boss of BA, insists all flying conditions

:12:56.:12:58.

will be smooth, but Michael O'Leary of Ryanair, is the doom-monger.

:12:59.:13:02.

I'll be speaking to him in a moment but first in case of you need it,

:13:03.:13:06.

Michael O'Leary has long been a pantomime villain. They occasionally

:13:07.:13:24.

foul-mouthed Irishman has never been afraid to ruffle a few feathers. And

:13:25.:13:29.

ruffle feathers is exactly what his airline has done over the last three

:13:30.:13:34.

decades, with humble beginnings and is 51 staff in 1985, it has sought

:13:35.:13:40.

to become the largest airline in Europe carrying 170 million

:13:41.:13:45.

passengers last year. It has also attracted consumer anger,

:13:46.:13:48.

developing, some might say nurturing, a reputation for

:13:49.:13:52.

ruthlessness and uncaring service. Now however, Mr

:13:53.:14:03.

O'Leary is centrestage with dire warnings about the risk of Brexit.

:14:04.:14:06.

He argues that it threatens the EU open skies arrangement which

:14:07.:14:08.

guarantees important freedoms to airlines. These freedoms established

:14:09.:14:10.

in 1944 permit for example, airlines belong to one country to fly

:14:11.:14:13.

passengers to and from their country of origin. They also allow air

:14:14.:14:18.

blogger to one country to fly passengers between two different

:14:19.:14:21.

countries or internally within another country. For instance,

:14:22.:14:26.

easyJet, UK airline can fly from London to Paris and back but also

:14:27.:14:30.

from Paris to Rome or from Rome to Milan. With Brexit, these freedoms

:14:31.:14:36.

could be at risk. For one thing, the system operates under the

:14:37.:14:38.

jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice which

:14:39.:14:51.

Britain has vowed to leave. So, will we see a disguise and hundreds of

:14:52.:14:54.

grounded planes at Heathrow and Manchester the day after we leave

:14:55.:14:56.

the EU? With his alarmism dismiss, Mr O'Leary is largely alone in this

:14:57.:14:58.

assessment. He has not been afraid of

:14:59.:15:01.

You're Transport Secretary Chris Grayling, what is your pitch? It is

:15:02.:15:17.

one of concern. The problem with the legislation is if the UK leads the

:15:18.:15:22.

European Union it is automatically leaving Open Skies. As things stand

:15:23.:15:27.

currently there are no flight rights between the UK and the EU and vice

:15:28.:15:31.

versa. That happens at the end of March. UK Government therefore has

:15:32.:15:36.

to negotiate a bilateral knot with individual countries but with the EU

:15:37.:15:41.

27. There is no sign of that being negotiated and no sign of any

:15:42.:15:47.

agreement. You're part of the EU, you're Irish, and a leading

:15:48.:15:52.

businessman. You can go to Michel Barnier, to the 27 and say it is up

:15:53.:15:59.

to you to go faster. We are but the French and Germans are saying Michel

:16:00.:16:05.

Barnier, slow down. If we caused some disruption for a period of

:16:06.:16:09.

months, and aviation comes up six months before Brexit, if we do not

:16:10.:16:17.

have the right to fly will cancel those flights. But it is in

:16:18.:16:23.

everyone's interest... That is the misunderstanding here in the UK. It

:16:24.:16:28.

is not in everyone's interests. It is European interests, said in the

:16:29.:16:33.

European airlines who are lobbying against this to not have an

:16:34.:16:37.

agreement when it will not last for a couple of years but a couple of

:16:38.:16:41.

months. But the British people when booking holidays for the summer of

:16:42.:16:48.

2019 it will be dry or get a very to Scotland or Ireland. You are an

:16:49.:16:54.

outlier on this. Everyone else was in denial. This is reality. There

:16:55.:17:01.

are other legal realities which will come unto. But you attended a

:17:02.:17:06.

meeting at the European Parliament last month and we have a clip of

:17:07.:17:14.

Willie Walsh taking a diametrically opposed views to you. He says it is

:17:15.:17:19.

going to be fine. With policy support it ought to be relatively

:17:20.:17:23.

straightforward to agree a deal on aviation that will be ready when the

:17:24.:17:29.

UK leads the EU. With policy support it should be relatively easy. There

:17:30.:17:33.

is no policy support that is the problem. But when you see Chris

:17:34.:17:38.

Grayling tomorrow? I hope there will be but Chris Grayling and the UK

:17:39.:17:44.

Government have not been able to negotiate the divorce bill, they

:17:45.:17:48.

cannot agree on whether the European Court of Justice governs European

:17:49.:17:54.

citizens here in the UK put up never mind doing the sectoral agreement

:17:55.:17:58.

for aviation. What is different about aviation is there is no

:17:59.:18:02.

fallback position. It is not covered by WTO. The UK is out of Open Skies

:18:03.:18:07.

and must negotiate an agreement. The UK is not yet out of Open Skies and

:18:08.:18:12.

may perhaps at yet negotiate an agreement and also several airlines

:18:13.:18:17.

including the one that controls British Airways will have a base

:18:18.:18:23.

within the European Union. Easyjet will have... Untrue. That will allow

:18:24.:18:28.

them to fly the way they are flying just now. That is incorrect because

:18:29.:18:34.

there are two issues. Ownership restrictions and flight plans. The

:18:35.:18:39.

current ownership setup will not survive Brexit. A Spanish company

:18:40.:18:46.

owning British Airways. No one would like an agreement more than I would.

:18:47.:18:51.

But you're not recognising the reality that continental Europeans

:18:52.:18:54.

see aviation as a means to put pressure on British people around

:18:55.:19:00.

September, October of 2018 because there will be no agreement. The

:19:01.:19:04.

business of ownership, Ryanair has a big issue. In order to have the

:19:05.:19:10.

ability to fly from one destination to another in the European Union 50%

:19:11.:19:20.

plus the company has to be owned and controlled by EU nationals. Ryanair

:19:21.:19:26.

is not, it is that 38%. We are at 40%. That is too low. We are buying

:19:27.:19:34.

back 5% of our stock every year. That is not a challenge for me. So

:19:35.:19:39.

you take money out of UK pension funds supporting Ryanair? We are

:19:40.:19:45.

buying back our own shares. At the moment you do not comply with the

:19:46.:19:49.

regulations which will allow you to fly between cities in the European

:19:50.:19:54.

Union. At the moment we do because British shareholders are treated as

:19:55.:19:59.

EU citizens. I accept that. In a hard Brexit if the UK leads we will

:20:00.:20:04.

have two forced UK shareholders to sell but the Easyjet structure will

:20:05.:20:08.

also have to be sold out. Easyjet cannot own and Austrian company and

:20:09.:20:15.

British Airways will not be allowed... You have an Austrian

:20:16.:20:19.

company 50% owned by European nationals. But Easyjet only own a

:20:20.:20:26.

majority. They do not control it either. You're missing the point. At

:20:27.:20:30.

the moment you can do this but after Brexit unless you can, unless

:20:31.:20:40.

Ryanair is owned 50 plus percent by EU nationals, you cannot fly city to

:20:41.:20:46.

city. That is not a difficulty. What I will not be able to do in a hard

:20:47.:20:51.

Brexit is fly from Europe to the UK or from the UK and Europe. The

:20:52.:20:56.

flight rights is the major challenge, not ownership. If I had

:20:57.:21:00.

to buy back another 10% of my stock that is what I plan to do anyway, we

:21:01.:21:06.

will be fine. But who will fly between the UK and the EU if the

:21:07.:21:09.

British Government does not negotiate an agreement in about 12

:21:10.:21:13.

months' time. And they had no idea how to negotiate that agreement.

:21:14.:21:18.

Let's look at Ryanair. You said you would change the culture, if I'd

:21:19.:21:24.

known being nice to customers was going to work so well I would have

:21:25.:21:27.

done it ages ago. So why have you got this new policy of different

:21:28.:21:35.

pricing between middle, window and aisle seats. Therefore if you are an

:21:36.:21:39.

adult fly with a child that should be sitting beside you one of those

:21:40.:21:45.

seats is more expensive than the other. The child seat is free. There

:21:46.:21:52.

is a supplement. It is free, it is the adult who pays to reserve a

:21:53.:21:56.

seat. The adult pays the extra. Yes. And that sounds like sophistry to

:21:57.:22:03.

me. It is taking place at the moment and we have more than 50% of people

:22:04.:22:10.

now selecting reserved seats when we are reducing our fair is about 4

:22:11.:22:15.

euros per seat. We would be reporting July numbers tomorrow, the

:22:16.:22:20.

low factor is 97%. Our flights are full. I'm not suggesting there are

:22:21.:22:25.

not full. People love the service and they adore the prices. What you

:22:26.:22:35.

have been reporting in the papers, with the random nature of algorithms

:22:36.:22:39.

and everything else, you end up splitting up families. We have never

:22:40.:22:43.

split a family, that is just not true. I have spoken to someone who

:22:44.:22:47.

has been split up. If the child is under 12 cannot be split up, they

:22:48.:22:53.

must together. Well we may get a lot of messages on Twitter after this.

:22:54.:22:58.

And children coming along with luggage, you are also unhappy about

:22:59.:23:04.

that. We are delighted. We have so few free seats. The thing I'm

:23:05.:23:08.

concerned about is whether any children will fly with us from the

:23:09.:23:13.

UK to Europe in April 2000 19. Thank you very much.

:23:14.:23:16.

Carne Ross is a former diplomat who worked for the Foreign Office

:23:17.:23:20.

Here's his take on why - after years working

:23:21.:23:24.

for the government - he now believes in anarchism.

:23:25.:25:28.

And if you want to know more about his journey from diplomat

:25:29.:25:33.

to anarchist then you can find him in a Storyville documentary

:25:34.:25:36.

on the iplayer now - look for Accidental Anarchist.

:25:37.:25:40.

When drug dealers want to get the edge on the competition

:25:41.:25:42.

and produce ever more extreme highs addicts end up taking

:25:43.:25:45.

The laboratory drug Fentanyl, a pain reliever and anaesthetic,

:25:46.:25:51.

is fifty times more potent than heroin and taking it illicity

:25:52.:25:54.

mixed with heroin is described as being like like Russian Roulette.

:25:55.:25:58.

Today the National Crime Agency said that it is responsible

:25:59.:26:04.

for the deaths of at least 60 drug users in Engand and Wales

:26:05.:26:07.

since the beginning of the year and may be implicated

:26:08.:26:10.

Its killing potential is evidence by the figures in America

:26:11.:26:18.

where the 19% rise in drug deaths last year - to 59,000 -

:26:19.:26:21.

We'll assess in a moment what Britain can do

:26:22.:26:26.

But first, I spoke earlier to Assistant Secretary

:26:27.:26:29.

of State William Brownfield - he's responsible for anti-narcotics

:26:30.:26:31.

I started by asking him how the problem with Fentanyl

:26:32.:26:35.

Here in the United States in the late 1990s there was a demand

:26:36.:26:43.

by patients on their doctors and the medical community to provide

:26:44.:26:47.

The doctors, trying to be responsive to their patients,

:26:48.:26:53.

asked for support and help from the American

:26:54.:26:55.

pharmaceutical industry who produced opioids.

:26:56.:26:59.

Not surprisingly as we moved into the 21st century,

:27:00.:27:05.

the prescriptions and growing numbers of people that

:27:06.:27:07.

were regularly using opioids developed eventually

:27:08.:27:11.

into a dependency and an addiction problem.

:27:12.:27:16.

And then as criminal enterprises realised that by using heroin

:27:17.:27:20.

to short-circuit and provide a much cheaper hit than diverted opioids,

:27:21.:27:28.

heroine then came into the market supplanting most of the opioids.

:27:29.:27:32.

And then what we have discovered over the last two or three years

:27:33.:27:36.

is that that same industry discovered that by adding a very

:27:37.:27:39.

inexpensive and easily manipulable product such as Fentanyl

:27:40.:27:50.

into the mix, they can at almost no additional cost to provide a much

:27:51.:27:53.

more effective buzz or high and Bob's your uncle,

:27:54.:27:57.

we have a first-class heroine opioids Fentanyl crisis

:27:58.:27:59.

The likes of which we have not seen for more than 40 years.

:28:00.:28:17.

I want to ask you about this, just to get to grips with it is

:28:18.:28:21.

I mean, the example I use is a business sized envelope.

:28:22.:28:26.

Into which you can easily insert enough Fentanyl that would provide

:28:27.:28:29.

And if you assume perhaps he is getting ten bucks,

:28:30.:28:32.

$10 per hit, you have $10,000 worth of merchandise in a business sized

:28:33.:28:37.

envelope that you can mail at least here in the United States for 49

:28:38.:28:41.

cents, somewhere in the vicinity I suppose of about 30p

:28:42.:28:43.

Now the Home Secretary, our Home Secretary has been talking

:28:44.:28:51.

about this today because obviously these figures have come out today.

:28:52.:28:55.

But what can we do to counter it before it gets to

:28:56.:28:58.

I will tell you some of the lessons we have learned from here.

:28:59.:29:06.

That in less than two years entire cities go from having no experience

:29:07.:29:11.

with Fentanyl whatsoever to an inundation.

:29:12.:29:15.

Second, education is exceptionally important.

:29:16.:29:18.

Most human beings actually do not wish to kill

:29:19.:29:21.

themselves with a product that they are ingesting,

:29:22.:29:24.

inhaling, or in some way inserting into their system.

:29:25.:29:31.

And education can be tremendously helpful.

:29:32.:29:40.

Education includes by the way how little of the product of the product

:29:41.:29:43.

is Fentanyl or other analogues, can actually kill you.

:29:44.:29:47.

Third you have to have some sort of intelligence system,

:29:48.:29:50.

law enforcement intelligence is geared towards the

:29:51.:29:51.

It does not come from the same production line that

:29:52.:29:55.

produces the heroine, the morphine, or the

:29:56.:29:57.

It comes from a different production line today dominated mostly

:29:58.:30:04.

by the Chinese pharmaceutical industry and to get on top of this

:30:05.:30:09.

you need to have an intelligence network with local law enforcement

:30:10.:30:12.

William Brownfield, thank you very much.

:30:13.:30:22.

Baroness Molly Meacher is a cross bench peer and the chair

:30:23.:30:29.

of the all party parliamentary group on drug use.

:30:30.:30:31.

Professor Sir John Strang is one of Britain's leading experts

:30:32.:30:33.

on addiction and heads the addictions department

:30:34.:30:35.

The evening. I think for many people they will not have heard of this,

:30:36.:30:49.

they will have heard of cocaine and heroin but not Fentanyl but it seems

:30:50.:30:55.

to be utterly deadly. Let us be clear what it is, it is an opioid

:30:56.:31:01.

drug, it is a drug whose effects are very similar to heroin and morphine

:31:02.:31:08.

and those classes of drugs. The particular problem with Fentanyl

:31:09.:31:12.

which is the same as the problem with heroin is that if a slug of the

:31:13.:31:20.

drug is taken, it turns off your respiratory drive, that bit of your

:31:21.:31:26.

brain that sends signals to breathe. You're looking at the science and

:31:27.:31:31.

the addiction together. I wonder if you think that a lot of addicts in

:31:32.:31:35.

this country have sufficient knowledge of the possible impact of

:31:36.:31:41.

Fentanyl when a single grain of this drug could kill you? You're

:31:42.:31:46.

absolutely right. One of the key features of Fentanyl is the small

:31:47.:31:50.

amount that is required to have that effect. In medical practice, that

:31:51.:31:59.

has not been a problem. Fentanyl has been used for around 30 years as a

:32:00.:32:03.

painkiller and anaesthetic because if you are needing to adjust the

:32:04.:32:08.

minute dose in medical practice, you can do so. The problem comes,

:32:09.:32:15.

particularly if you have illicit manufacture. With people who do not

:32:16.:32:21.

know the strength of what they are putting in, that is the problem and

:32:22.:32:25.

that is why it is described as Russian roulette in America. Perhaps

:32:26.:32:29.

they do not care. Illegal drug dealers are trying to make big

:32:30.:32:35.

money. They are not trying to kill their clients, but half the time,

:32:36.:32:40.

they do not realise how dangerous it is. How did this creep up by mass?

:32:41.:32:47.

We have had these laws for 60 years that ban all these. How did Fentanyl

:32:48.:32:58.

as a component creep up on us? The Chinese are exporting it. It comes

:32:59.:33:03.

from China and as we introduced a law about one year ago banning a

:33:04.:33:08.

whole pile of psychoactive substances. These substances are

:33:09.:33:13.

purchased online from China to get around the law, it is impossible to

:33:14.:33:18.

police substances coming in from China directly to the homes of

:33:19.:33:24.

people. The government seems to think... All you have to do is ban

:33:25.:33:28.

things and that is fine but we have to be a great deal more intelligent

:33:29.:33:34.

about the strokes. Interestingly, I wonder if you think that dealers to

:33:35.:33:45.

know how to do this properly. When we saw police covered in outfits,

:33:46.:33:52.

but we watched two policemen in America who were not covered and

:33:53.:33:56.

became sick from inhaling it. The potency of it and the way they mix,

:33:57.:33:59.

it must be under controlled conditions. We can learn a lot by

:34:00.:34:07.

looking at the experience in the US. Very clearly, the product that is

:34:08.:34:12.

put out there in the marketplace, is not carefully titrated. If it was

:34:13.:34:18.

that there was the fine tuning of the dosing, then you would still

:34:19.:34:21.

have your problem of the heroin addiction and its equivalent but you

:34:22.:34:24.

would not have the death rate that comes with it. It is worth pointing

:34:25.:34:33.

out, for those people and those families with a son or daughter

:34:34.:34:38.

involved in this, let us be clear about the partially protective

:34:39.:34:42.

effect of being in treatment. We already know both with heroin

:34:43.:34:48.

overdose and Fentanyl over those that a move into treatment massively

:34:49.:34:53.

reduces your risk of dying. You would hope this would scare people

:34:54.:34:58.

into seeking treatment. It is a hugely important point but then you

:34:59.:35:02.

ask the question about having the capacity to respond and retain

:35:03.:35:06.

people in treatment and the evidence on the whole is that treatment has

:35:07.:35:12.

become less available and more difficult to hold people in

:35:13.:35:15.

treatment. My understanding is that these figures are very start because

:35:16.:35:20.

it is only July and at least 60 with another possible 70 but it is

:35:21.:35:26.

because the wait up -- the toxicology was examined, Fentanyl

:35:27.:35:29.

could have been something that has been growing over the last two or

:35:30.:35:33.

three years. Further products will come out as well. We must not just

:35:34.:35:39.

assume there is just this one. The Chinese are producing new and ever

:35:40.:35:44.

stronger and more complex compounds. How do you stop them getting it into

:35:45.:35:49.

the country? In my view, we have to regulate the way we do these things.

:35:50.:35:54.

Sir John Baird some excellent research into heroin treatment

:35:55.:36:00.

centres, in Switzerland, there are wonderful centres were heroin users

:36:01.:36:04.

get the clean heroin illegally in special treatment centres and

:36:05.:36:08.

through consumption rooms and Durham Police are doing something similar.

:36:09.:36:13.

If we do that, people get their heroin clean, not with Fentanyl edit

:36:14.:36:17.

on the whole thing becomes much more safer. Thank you very much indeed.

:36:18.:36:21.

Apart from the occasional burst of banter over Brexit,

:36:22.:36:23.

politics seems to have packed up its bags and disappeared

:36:24.:36:26.

The snap election was only in June but feels to some

:36:27.:36:29.

But today memories of it were evoked by the publication

:36:30.:36:33.

of a piece of analysis by the British Election Survey team

:36:34.:36:36.

For three decades they've been monitoring the reasons people

:36:37.:36:39.

And today's findings shed some new light on what was going

:36:40.:36:43.

on behind the scenes of that extraordinary election.

:36:44.:36:45.

Our policy editor Chris Cook is here.

:36:46.:36:49.

Chris, what with the surprises? I think one of the things that sheds

:36:50.:36:56.

light on this, it understands the position of Labour on Brexit in

:36:57.:37:00.

particular. We have got a graphic here which is about to pop up which

:37:01.:37:08.

shows the 100 blogs on the left in red representing Labour voters at

:37:09.:37:13.

the 2017 general election, the blue blobs represent the Tory voters. Let

:37:14.:37:22.

us look, using the data, how they voted in the 2016 referendum. What

:37:23.:37:28.

it shows you is that roughly, about 70% of Labour voters voted Remain

:37:29.:37:35.

and 70% of Tory voters voted Leave in the referendum. There is a

:37:36.:37:39.

pleasing symmetry and that leaves people saying why aren't Labour

:37:40.:37:43.

being more assiduous and trying to basically lock picks it? The British

:37:44.:37:50.

election -- but the British Election Survey on thickness. The question as

:37:51.:37:56.

it is what is almost important thing to you and people have to write in

:37:57.:37:59.

what they think the top issue is and what we can do is sweep away all the

:38:00.:38:03.

blogs by people on the screen who did not say break that was the top

:38:04.:38:08.

issue. It shows you that basically there is a huge enthusiasm gap. You

:38:09.:38:15.

bring up the numbers, about 18% of Labour voters are hardline Remain

:38:16.:38:19.

voters and make Brexit is the most important issue compared to 30% of

:38:20.:38:26.

Tory voters. 70% of Labour voters were Remain voters but only a small

:38:27.:38:29.

portion of those still pick it is the most important issue. What is

:38:30.:38:35.

the most important issue? Tuition fees, fox hunting? The amazing thing

:38:36.:38:38.

about this study is there is no silver bullet that explains the

:38:39.:38:42.

election. It is amazing that you would not know from the study that

:38:43.:38:46.

tuition fees even came up or fox hunting, the best we can say is that

:38:47.:38:51.

those things, if they were important, they were important to

:38:52.:38:55.

secondary issues that supported the broader issues and broader images of

:38:56.:39:00.

the two major parties. So was an election that never really was in

:39:01.:39:04.

terms of sparks and passion. There was lots of passion but no clear

:39:05.:39:10.

thrust that damaged fatally or it saved one of the parties. Like very

:39:11.:39:16.

much indeed. A quick look at the front pages. The Guardian revealed

:39:17.:39:24.

that tycoon 's own 652 empty homes in the Grenfell area and there is

:39:25.:39:27.

the new Vogue editor on his first day in the job, the first man to

:39:28.:39:35.

edit the magazine. The Telegraph, green tax ends home energy bills.

:39:36.:39:41.

The Daily Mirror, greedy British Gas boss revealed that cars have gone

:39:42.:39:42.

down but he is putting up prices.

:39:43.:39:46.

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