02/08/2017 Newsnight


02/08/2017

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines. With Evan Davis.


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Transcript


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Violence is reaching a crisis in our prisons,

:00:11.:00:15.

to the point where we need to think about deploying the army

:00:16.:00:18.

Problems at two prisons in recent days,

:00:19.:00:22.

in Wiltshire and Hertfordshire, suggest violence is a new normal.

:00:23.:00:28.

You need extra resources sent into prisons to stabilise them short-term

:00:29.:00:34.

and you could consider using the army for that.

:00:35.:00:39.

We'll ask how bad it is inside, and how we let

:00:40.:00:41.

Turmoil and protest in Venezuela continues.

:00:42.:00:45.

Is it time for the left here, which enthusiastically

:00:46.:00:47.

backed the Venezuelan model, to recant?

:00:48.:00:50.

And it's been a long innings by any measure

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Well, for instance, we had a small yacht which we had to sell.

:00:54.:00:56.

I shall probably have to give up polo fairly

:00:57.:00:58.

On the day he retires, we look back at the career

:00:59.:01:03.

All that and Andrew Scott, too, from Moriaty to Hamlet.

:01:04.:01:13.

If you were in government and thinking about how

:01:14.:01:29.

to cut public spending, prisons would perhaps

:01:30.:01:31.

Prison cuts don't affect many people, and prisoners

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It is that logic that perhaps explains why there are now

:01:36.:01:40.

only 42,000 staff in the National Offender Management

:01:41.:01:45.

Service in England and Wales, while there were 49,000

:01:46.:01:47.

But the logic of cutting prisons has perhaps reached a limit.

:01:48.:01:53.

The pressure of fewer staff in overcrowded jails has

:01:54.:01:55.

seen violence rise - towards staff, other prisoners

:01:56.:01:57.

Bad things are happening in our jails, and it's no

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surprise the president of the Prison Governors Association

:02:06.:02:08.

has written an open letter attacking the government's

:02:09.:02:10.

Violence and rioting, volatility has gripped prisons in England and

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Wales. Run. The pressure in our prison service building for staff

:02:29.:02:36.

and inmates. Get down. A breakdown indoor and order caused by a

:02:37.:02:39.

shortage of staff and a growing prison population -- in law and

:02:40.:02:45.

order. A toxic mix according to the Prison Governors Association.

:02:46.:02:50.

Attacks on prison staff and drugs academic increasing concern around

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mental health and overcrowding, resources and rehabilitation, major

:02:57.:02:59.

issues for the prison service, and many are warning the system is at

:03:00.:03:05.

breaking point. Earlier this week specialist teams known as Tornado

:03:06.:03:12.

units were called into prisons in Hertfordshire following a riot, and

:03:13.:03:17.

it did not stop there, in Wiltshire there was also disturbances which

:03:18.:03:21.

resulted in violence against staff. But I would suggest the Secretary of

:03:22.:03:27.

State does is very sinister consider an appeal to staff who have left

:03:28.:03:33.

recently, experienced staff, through voluntary exit schemes, to create a

:03:34.:03:36.

task force to go back into those prisons causing most concern and get

:03:37.:03:40.

back control and create a regime and create stability. If that is

:03:41.:03:47.

insufficient armour I would suggest that you need extra resources sent

:03:48.:03:51.

into prison, simply to stabilise them short-term and you could

:03:52.:03:54.

consider using the army for that for example. It is a very radical

:03:55.:03:58.

measure, controversial and it carries risk, but the risks of doing

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nothing are simply too high in my view, to not at least consider

:04:03.:04:07.

exceptionally and for initial period time getting resources onto the

:04:08.:04:12.

landing is to restore control. There has been a sharp rise in prison

:04:13.:04:18.

violence the latest figures show nearly 27,000 assaults in prisons in

:04:19.:04:22.

the year to March, 20% more than last year. This includes more than

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7000 attacks on staff equating to 20 each day. There has to be some

:04:28.:04:32.

humility frankly from government to say that we made a catastrophic

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mistake in reducing staff so far so fast, and there is a widespread

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instability in prisons or stop unless it is tackled, I really do

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fear that we are going to see a member of staff killed on duty.

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Recruitment and retaining prison staff is a major problem. Over the

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last 12 months there has been a net increase of just 25 officers,

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meanwhile the prison population in England and Wales is growing. You

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have worked with prisoners and ex-offenders for more than 20 years,

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how bad is the situation? Possibly the worst it has been, I think, for

:05:09.:05:15.

probably 30 years, also. But Blake is pushing for urgent reform,

:05:16.:05:19.

something he has been calling for since the Strangeways riots in the

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90s and he believes too many are being put behind bars. The violence

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is a symptom of the reductions we have had in prison staff and the

:05:28.:05:31.

amount of time people are being blocked in their cells and the

:05:32.:05:36.

deterioration in terms of mental health that has contributed, we need

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to address the issue of groups of people who are in the system who we

:05:41.:05:47.

can divert elsewhere. We would highlight women, the women's prison

:05:48.:05:51.

population is at an all-time high, for the last 20 years, and people

:05:52.:05:54.

with mental health problems, we need to do much more. How long will

:05:55.:06:00.

prison reform take? From prison staff to the inmates locked away, be

:06:01.:06:03.

problems are clear to see but those caught in a system that leads urgent

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rehabilitation. -- needs. I'm joined now by Paula Harriot,

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who spent four years in jail for supplying drugs -

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and she now works hands on with people in prison for

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the organisation Revolving Doors. How have you seen it change, in the

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last 5-10 years? We have seen the impact of having less staff and more

:06:30.:06:33.

people in prison is Billy impacting on the ability to deliver any

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rehabilitation in prisons, and it has become about warehousing people

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and warehousing people who come into that prison unwell. Mental health

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problems, substance misuse problems. All sorts of challenges for the less

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rehabilitation, what does that mean, more hours in a cell? It means

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locked in a cell. How long? We have seen cases of people being locked up

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the entire weekend because of staff shortages, from Friday until Monday.

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That is simply traumatising for people. Imagine not being able to

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get out at all and how that plays on your ability to cope with the stress

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of the sentence, you can't access the phone to phone anybody. You are

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isolated and how that impacts on your mental health. Some people

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would say, you are in prison what do you expect, that is what you get

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when you go to prison. I agree, but the punishment is being pride of

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your liberty and I don't think it is being placed in a degrading

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situation -- being deprived of your liberty. How does the violence,

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round? A rather stupid question, but people locked in cells are not going

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to be getting up to any violence because there's nothing for them to

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do. The frustration builds and builds and escalate and so when you

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get out the anger and frustration is absolutely at the tipping point, the

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boiling point, and then people flare up over things that generally could

:08:16.:08:19.

be managed. In a more, in a different way. Have you witnessed

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any violence in prisons? I have been working since my own release in

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prison, I've been working constantly in prisons and directly with people

:08:30.:08:34.

who have been recently released from prison, having lots of contact, and

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I can see that the breakdown in communication, the breakdown in

:08:44.:08:46.

access to mental health services and substance misuse services, and

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psychological interventions, how staffing levels mean people can't

:08:52.:08:55.

get to health care. The one substance people are allowed to

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misuse is tobacco, the smoking ban is causing a worry. I think that is

:09:01.:09:10.

misjudged. In my information that I've had recently around the smoking

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ban, it is that people are then using spice. Which is much worse.

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And they are smoking it with tobacco, that is unadulterated and

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the impact of that is that it has escalated people's mental health and

:09:26.:09:31.

violence levels. Very briefly, the public want people to be punished.

:09:32.:09:36.

Supplying drugs, they want you to be punished but you got four years.

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What could we have done to signal disapproval in the way that we have

:09:44.:09:48.

done? I recently spoke to a magistrate about how we can minimise

:09:49.:09:51.

the amount of people that are being sent to prison and her answer was

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that we need a menu of options for magistrates, that sometimes they

:09:58.:10:02.

bail out of options. They run out of options to support people in the

:10:03.:10:05.

community to look at their funding behaviour and they don't have the

:10:06.:10:08.

ability to sentence people to mental health treatment and they don't

:10:09.:10:13.

utilise that as much as they could. They don't have the option to direct

:10:14.:10:18.

people to substance misuse treatment orders, and I think we need to have

:10:19.:10:26.

a much more coherent approach to using community sentencing to divert

:10:27.:10:29.

people out of the criminal justice system. Thanks for joining us.

:10:30.:10:33.

I'm joined now by Philip Wheatley - formerly Director-General

:10:34.:10:35.

of the National Offender Management Service and also a former

:10:36.:10:37.

Director-General of HM Prison Service.

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And the Conservative MP Dominic Grieve,

:10:40.:10:41.

who was Attorney General under the Coalition government.

:10:42.:10:44.

Good evening. Would you say it is crisis level in terms of violence

:10:45.:10:55.

and inability to looked after prisons the way you meant? I think

:10:56.:11:00.

it is a crisis in the way that you have seen a tripling in the level of

:11:01.:11:04.

assaults on staff since I left in 2010, it is difficult for staff to

:11:05.:11:08.

do their job safely on properly and that makes them likely to back off

:11:09.:11:15.

in the face of that aggression and it makes it difficult to run prisons

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safely. The level of assaults between prisoners and the extent to

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which spice has become the drug of choice, and is difficult to deal

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with, and now a series of incidents, master sword, that genuinely should

:11:28.:11:34.

be caught a crisis -- mass disorder. And we also have suicide which has

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doubled since I left and that means prisons are not safe for prisoners

:11:40.:11:45.

and staff and by not doing the job they should be doing in terms of

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reducing reoffending. We have heard that the state of things, do you

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recognise that is the state of jails in England and Wales? Yes, I do, the

:11:55.:12:00.

evidence is overwhelming and the problem is we have an overcrowded

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prison system and we have failed consistently to face up to that and

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to accept we have either got to reduce the prison population or

:12:09.:12:13.

provide more prisons and more prison officers, and while leadership in

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good prisons can do a great deal to reduce some of those issues, even if

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you have a shortage of staff, there comes a point where you can't go on

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doing that. And the message I think the government has got to take,

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either there has to be more investment and money being spent or

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we have got to find alternatives to prison is to reduce the prison

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population. We have failed to face up to this, and I get bombarded by

:12:41.:12:44.

people asking for prison sentences to be increased or for new offences

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to be created, which will lead to people being sent to prison, we have

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a knack in this country of seeing prison as the final destination for

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criminals and insisting that is where they should go, we have one of

:12:59.:13:02.

the highest prison populations in Europe per head. And we don't have

:13:03.:13:06.

the resources invested in order to do that. This is quite an indictment

:13:07.:13:13.

of your party in government, they have been there seven years and they

:13:14.:13:16.

have been talking the talk. Michael Gove said this is appalling, no

:13:17.:13:22.

point trying to minimise attention from the problems, but it hasn't

:13:23.:13:28.

been dealt with, why not? It is an indictment of every single

:13:29.:13:30.

government that has been in office was long as I have been in

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Parliament. This is a long-standing problem and in fairness, the present

:13:35.:13:41.

Justice Secretary who is a wise and sensible person has understood some

:13:42.:13:45.

of these issues and in the decisions that have been taken in getting more

:13:46.:13:49.

prison officers back, that is a step in the right direction, but it can

:13:50.:13:54.

only be a step, and we put people into prison and unless we have

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proper training and education programmes, what we're actually

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doing is putting a group of people with serious problems and a tendency

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towards criminality all together in one place. Should we be surprised in

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those circumstances if we can't deliver the programmes, but in fact

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they end up misbehaving within the prison system itself? We heard

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Philip Aitchison basically saying if you can't get the resources, you

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need to have the army ready whenever there is disruption, and he thinks

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there will be quite a bit, are the ready to step in, have we reached

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that point? -- are the army. That would make the situation worse, in

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my view, and the prison's ability to handle disorder and two ended

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without injury is quite considerable, they are skilled in

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doing it and they have succeeded in doing that, but the army are not

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trained for that. To deploy them in that role would be folly and to

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deploy them to supervise wings, when they have had no training, that

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would be folly, there training is in using lethal force, not in

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persuading people to do things, and that would make the situation was,

:15:07.:15:09.

but there is a crisis and we do have to deal with it. They have announced

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there will be more prison officers, 3000 extra prison officers in

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England and Wales. Will that make the difference that is required?

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It will help if they can recruit them. Part of the problem is that

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the pay for police officers has been forced down. They earn less than

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they used to when I was there. That is making the job unattractive in

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the south-east, where the economy is running hot and we have full

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employment. It is getting difficult to recruit. It is running just short

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of 10% of staff a year of turnover, so you have to recruit hard to stand

:15:57.:16:00.

still. We have to do something about both the attraction and the

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retention strategy, and talking doggedly about the government pay

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strategy looks like it's getting in the way of that, particularly in the

:16:10.:16:14.

south-east. What happens if we don't put in the extra resources and

:16:15.:16:23.

recruit more prison officers? What happens if we do nothing? It will

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continue to be a chaotic situation. The rehabilitation we want from the

:16:31.:16:35.

prison system, that the vast majority of inmates will be coming

:16:36.:16:39.

out after reasonably short periods of time, is going to be lost. It is

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in our interests to get this right. Coming back to my original point.

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The greatest driver is overcrowding. As long as we cannot get a grip on

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this as a society, we will constantly be behind the curve. We

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are not going to be able to address this issue. I have taken an interest

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in this subject for 20 years, as long as I've been in Parliament, and

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in that time, these problems have been in the background continuously.

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And the prison population has gone up by a third. Thank you both very

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much. More news breaking tonight

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on the tests into building cladding and insulation in the wake

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of the fire at Grenfell. Chris Cook has been

:17:26.:17:27.

following this whole issue Chris, just bring us up to speed

:17:28.:17:37.

with the tests. We heard a lot about test failures in the last few weeks.

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What the government was doing when they had all these failures was

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auditing the building, trying to work out what combustible materials

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were on buildings across England. They didn't know which combination

:17:52.:17:55.

of materials could be used together safely, because a lot of it will be

:17:56.:18:00.

OK because it will be installed in such a way to ensure that fire can't

:18:01.:18:07.

get to it. They are doing six tests to work out what combinations of

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materials can safely be used. So these are the big six. Forget

:18:14.:18:18.

everything else. What are these tests showing? We have a grid

:18:19.:18:23.

showing what these tests are. Down the left-hand side are the types of

:18:24.:18:30.

cladding they are testing. Limited combustibility cladding is the most

:18:31.:18:34.

fireproof stuff. Fire retardant cladding is slightly less. The last

:18:35.:18:43.

one is quite combustible. They are doing big tests with those installed

:18:44.:18:48.

alongside plastic foam, for one test, and mineral ball, the

:18:49.:18:55.

insulation. We had the Grenfell Tower combination last week, and

:18:56.:18:59.

that was a complete failure. What we learned tonight is polyethylene core

:19:00.:19:06.

cladding and mineral ball also failed the test. That polyethylene

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core cladding is gone, basically. The 193 tall buildings across

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England that have some kind of polyethylene core cladding on them

:19:22.:19:26.

will have to be taken down, realistically, because even when you

:19:27.:19:31.

have the safest type of installation, it cannot withstand

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the fire tests. We have four other boxes to look forward to. In

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exactly, and we don't know what they are going to say. They might say

:19:40.:19:43.

that's just a little bit has to be changed. Thank you very much.

:19:44.:19:47.

The constituent assembly elected - controversially - over the weekend,

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However, the company that provided the electronic voting

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system used in the vote said it thinks the government's

:19:56.:19:58.

claims on the huge turnout were exaggerated.

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Given the opposition were boycotting the vote,

:20:00.:20:01.

it was upon turnout that the legitimacy

:20:02.:20:03.

You'll have seen last night that opposition leaders have been

:20:04.:20:06.

arrested and detained, the EU is thinking

:20:07.:20:08.

about its response - probably not sanctions

:20:09.:20:10.

But protests in the country continue as it slides into disorder.

:20:11.:20:16.

We can speak to BBC correspondent Will Grant in Caracas.

:20:17.:20:28.

What is the latest, particularly on the swearing in of this constituent

:20:29.:20:34.

assembly, which I believe has been a bit late? That's right. It has been

:20:35.:20:40.

another one of these chaotic, ad hoc days in Venezuela, when you wake up

:20:41.:20:45.

and the news moves faster than ordinary people can keep up with.

:20:46.:20:49.

The announcement you mentioned in London by the company that runs the

:20:50.:20:53.

electronic voting system will have had real shock waves here, because

:20:54.:20:57.

of course the opposition will say that the numbers were inflated, but

:20:58.:21:02.

to have those claims are supported by the very people who are operating

:21:03.:21:07.

those systems gives credibility to them and not to the government. Mr

:21:08.:21:12.

Maduro is carrying on regardless, both with swearing in, and also with

:21:13.:21:20.

the socialist project more generally, everything that is

:21:21.:21:23.

happening in terms of sanctions against him personally and against

:21:24.:21:28.

his top leadership, he is wearing that as a badge of honour if

:21:29.:21:33.

anything, saying that it shows he's taking the right response to

:21:34.:21:38.

Washington, puffing out his chest at Donald Trump. This has a long way to

:21:39.:21:44.

go. There are more demonstrations, more conflict, and most ordinary

:21:45.:21:49.

Venezuelans caught in the middle and hoping it doesn't turn bloody. Thank

:21:50.:21:51.

you very much. At one time, Venezuela looked to be

:21:52.:21:53.

a country that could cock a snook at the global establishment

:21:54.:21:57.

and neo-liberalism. A left populist country,

:21:58.:21:58.

it attracted the attention of left-leaning politicians

:21:59.:22:00.

in this country. Veneuzuela was pioneering

:22:01.:22:01.

an alternative path. "Showing another way is possible",

:22:02.:22:03.

as Diane Abbott said five years ago. So as it falls into disrepair,

:22:04.:22:06.

what is the left's Jeremy Corbyn is under pressure

:22:07.:22:08.

from some of his own MPs to condemn Joining me now from Derby

:22:09.:22:12.

is the Shadow Home Office Minister, And from Glasgow, the Telegraph

:22:13.:22:19.

commentator and former Chris Williamson, you either have to

:22:20.:22:33.

face it that Maduro is in the right now, or you were in the wrong to

:22:34.:22:37.

support him earlier. What is the position of the left now? That is an

:22:38.:22:45.

unfair characterisation, if I might say so, because the circumstances

:22:46.:22:49.

have changed substantially in Venezuela in recent years. The

:22:50.:22:54.

collapse in the oil price and these violent protests, which have been

:22:55.:22:59.

aided and abetted by the USA, who have been funding opposition groups

:23:00.:23:04.

and have a very shady record going back many decades of interfering in

:23:05.:23:09.

Latin America, right back to Chile where President Nixon said he was

:23:10.:23:17.

going to make the opposition scream. We have had factory owners stopping

:23:18.:23:24.

production of products to cause shortages in the shops, the same

:23:25.:23:31.

tactics used in 1973 in Chile. So your response to seeing opposition

:23:32.:23:35.

leaders bundled out in the night and taken away and arrested is to

:23:36.:23:40.

condemn the United States? Is that your response? Not at all. That is

:23:41.:23:47.

unfair. Human rights are inalienable and universal. I am not an apologist

:23:48.:23:54.

for the Venezuelan government. Clearly, they made mistakes and

:23:55.:23:58.

didn't do enough to diversify the economy. They are under incredible

:23:59.:24:03.

pressure, and there is a very one-sided view of the situation

:24:04.:24:07.

there very often in the British media. I have yet to criticise any

:24:08.:24:14.

-- I had yet to hear any criticism of the opposition or of the United

:24:15.:24:19.

States. There is a reluctance to impose sanctions on the country. It

:24:20.:24:25.

would be better to bring the sides together in talks, and to encourage

:24:26.:24:28.

the right-wing opposition to stop these protests on the street. Just

:24:29.:24:33.

imagine if this was happening in this country, or in the USA. Many

:24:34.:24:39.

people involved in those protests would be facing long prison terms.

:24:40.:24:46.

Tom Harris, do you think that Jeremy Corbyn should recant his own views

:24:47.:24:51.

and saying he should condemn what Maduro is doing? I think he should.

:24:52.:24:56.

There are two very different positions in the Labour Party. Since

:24:57.:25:02.

the Second World War, Labour Party has been the party of Watson and

:25:03.:25:11.

Blair. They have managed to distance themselves effectively from some of

:25:12.:25:16.

these Marxist outfits. Jeremy Corbyn and the hard left have never met a

:25:17.:25:21.

banana republic they didn't like. When Jeremy Corbyn started talking

:25:22.:25:24.

about Venezuelan being an example that Britain should follow, nobody

:25:25.:25:30.

really paid attention, because he was an anonymous backbencher who

:25:31.:25:35.

often said strange things. Now he is the leader of the party, we have an

:25:36.:25:40.

absolute right to know whether he regrets or recants what he said. It

:25:41.:25:45.

would be a sign of political maturity to come out of hiding and

:25:46.:25:50.

say that he got it wrong. Do you think he will do that? There are

:25:51.:25:55.

things that the Venezuelan government has got wrong, but I'm

:25:56.:26:00.

not sure what Tom is saying here. He is a free marketeer. What was the

:26:01.:26:05.

situation like in Venezuelan before Hugo Chavez came to power? Chaotic,

:26:06.:26:11.

great inequality, grow test poverty... Do you think you are

:26:12.:26:19.

closer to Chappers and Maduro in your political philosophy, or Tony

:26:20.:26:33.

Blair? -- to Hugo Chavez and Maduro? That is quite a question! Can you

:26:34.:26:40.

not answer it? When a government is doing good things, as they certainly

:26:41.:26:46.

were under Hugo Chavez, a huge reduction in poverty and investment

:26:47.:26:51.

in health care, that is surely a thing we should celebrate. Putting

:26:52.:26:57.

up a false dichotomy of asking who I am closer to is an irrelevant

:26:58.:27:03.

question. I have to give five seconds, the last word. I'm sorry.

:27:04.:27:11.

Tom, I'm sorry. We have given far too little time. In a few words,

:27:12.:27:15.

would you not say there is hypocrisy all over the place? The important

:27:16.:27:23.

point is that nobody in the Labour Party, or no Saudi -- has looked at

:27:24.:27:34.

Saudi Arabia and said it is an example to follow. It has been said

:27:35.:27:42.

that using the example of Venezuelan is something for Great Britain to

:27:43.:27:47.

follow. This is an opposition -- government that is killing people

:27:48.:27:54.

and locking them up. The CIA are not forcing Maduro's government to

:27:55.:27:59.

torture and imprison people, and they should be outraged. I'm so

:28:00.:28:03.

sorry. We are out of time. Thank you.

:28:04.:28:06.

It seems as though we get a new Hamlet on the West End stage

:28:07.:28:10.

almost as often as a new head of media in the White House.

:28:11.:28:13.

Benedict Cumberbatch has played the Prince of Denmark,

:28:14.:28:15.

Tom Hiddleston will take on the role later this year - but currently

:28:16.:28:18.

winning golden opinions in the part is the Irish actor Andrew Scott,

:28:19.:28:21.

who you may know as Moriarty in the hit series Sherlock.

:28:22.:28:23.

His Hamlet has deliberately been pitched to younger audiences,

:28:24.:28:28.

with 300 seats a night on sale to the Under-30s.

:28:29.:28:30.

Stephen Smith has been to the Harold Pinter Theatre to meet him.

:28:31.:28:33.

Tis sweet and commendable in your nature, Hamlet.

:28:34.:28:36.

To give these morning duties to your father.

:28:37.:28:38.

Andrew Scott's Hamlet wears his fencing gear almost

:28:39.:28:41.

He says the production he leads looks at Hamlet's plight

:28:42.:28:50.

The thing that feels the most timely is the relationship

:28:51.:28:55.

It's a story about a young man whose father has just died and everybody

:28:56.:29:01.

in his family is saying, move on, move on, you're the Prince,

:29:02.:29:04.

And so because he is at the centre of the state, something rotten

:29:05.:29:13.

I don't think you can play Hamlet in the sense,

:29:14.:29:23.

you can't just put on this antic position and make it is apparent

:29:24.:29:28.

to everybody that your lunatic in inverted commas because that's

:29:29.:29:30.

not the way mental health presents itself.

:29:31.:29:32.

People can relate to what grieving is.

:29:33.:29:38.

I think we're on a very exciting time in the world

:29:39.:29:40.

about what we understand in mental health and our attitude

:29:41.:29:45.

towards being ashamed of sometimes being a little bit ill.

:29:46.:29:50.

Do you draw on anything particular for that?

:29:51.:29:52.

I think grief can manifest itself in a lot of different ways,

:29:53.:30:02.

You have to bring an awful lot of yourself to the park.

:30:03.:30:10.

Tis an unweeded garden grown to seed.

:30:11.:30:12.

So excellent, a king, it was, was, to this.

:30:13.:30:29.

One of the things I really wanted to do was to be able to speak

:30:30.:30:32.

Not to kind of pretend that they're not there.

:30:33.:30:35.

But actually you're live and and you're going,

:30:36.:30:38.

So if someone does sneeze or laugh too loud or sometimes the rain comes

:30:39.:30:44.

You can't pretend that that's not happening.

:30:45.:30:55.

And that is what I think keeps it live and present, people say,

:30:56.:30:59.

Robert Icke's production of Hamlet has consciously appealed to younger

:31:00.:31:07.

audiences with discounts for the under 30s.

:31:08.:31:09.

It's this fear mongering that goes on, that young people that watch

:31:10.:31:17.

Sherlock aren't going to be able to watch Hamlet without snapchatting

:31:18.:31:20.

If they are going to be watching Shakespeare for the first time,

:31:21.:31:30.

it's our job to make it as interesting as a box set.

:31:31.:31:35.

Rob, our director, he says it shouldn't be

:31:36.:31:42.

You know, do your Shakespeare, like kind of chore.

:31:43.:31:48.

They say that about Newsnight, by the way.

:31:49.:31:50.

I can still prove that you created an entirely false identity.

:31:51.:31:58.

Oh just kill yourself, it's a lot less effort.

:31:59.:32:00.

Scott is probably best known as the suave but

:32:01.:32:02.

dastardly Moriarty in the hugely successful Sherlock.

:32:03.:32:12.

What prospect of more cases for the sleuth of Baker Street?

:32:13.:32:21.

I'm afraid to say, don't expect much.

:32:22.:32:30.

I don't think the door is ever fully closed.

:32:31.:32:37.

I think it definitely could do with a bit of

:32:38.:32:40.

Mark Gatiss says it is the Fawlty Towers thing.

:32:41.:32:44.

I think everybody is busy doing their thing.

:32:45.:32:53.

I don't have much to report on that front.

:32:54.:32:55.

You're not going to pop up in a Christmas special?

:32:56.:33:01.

007, I'd like you to meet Max Denby, the head of the joint

:33:02.:33:07.

It's a pleasure to finally meet you, 007.

:33:08.:33:09.

Congratulations on your new appointment.

:33:10.:33:13.

Scott almost did for another great British hero, James Bond, as a

:33:14.:33:26.

We are going to bring British intelligence out of

:33:27.:33:31.

A gay James Bond, female Doctor Who,

:33:32.:33:35.

It's almost impossible to speak of those things

:33:36.:33:39.

Because two straight people and two black people

:33:40.:33:44.

and two gay people can be completely distinct

:33:45.:33:46.

from each other, given the attributes, and those

:33:47.:33:50.

are the things that you play, you play those attributes and not

:33:51.:33:52.

Andrew Scott, talking to Steven Smith.

:33:53.:34:22.

It has been Prince Phillip's day - the day of his last

:34:23.:34:27.

He greeted Royal Marines involved in a 1,600 mile charity race -

:34:28.:34:31.

And it has been quite a marathon for the Duke in his 65 years

:34:32.:34:35.

22,219 solo engagements, including 5,490 speeches.

:34:36.:34:38.

I've not been counting, but that's the reported totals.

:34:39.:34:40.

And of course there are many, many more occasions at which

:34:41.:34:43.

The solo engagement count comes in at 340 per year, which is quite

:34:44.:34:49.

reasonably regarded as a good strike rate, getting on for one a day,

:34:50.:34:52.

Just before we came on air, I spoke to Martin Palmer.

:34:53.:34:58.

Spiritual adviser and long time friend of Prince Phillip.

:34:59.:35:00.

And to Arthur Edwards - the Sun's veteran Royal photographer.

:35:01.:35:04.

First I asked Martin if he found the Duke easy to get along with.

:35:05.:35:07.

Yes, very, as long as you don't catch him on a bad

:35:08.:35:10.

Mornings are not his best time, especially early morning.

:35:11.:35:18.

I remember, we were on Mount Athos and I had to get him up at three

:35:19.:35:23.

to go to a service and then we had to leave to take the

:35:24.:35:26.

We actually cleared the deck of an entire ship, leaving

:35:27.:35:33.

from Mount Athos back to the mainland of Greece

:35:34.:35:36.

because we had a flaming row about something.

:35:37.:35:38.

When I went downstairs, they said, are you going to be executed?

:35:39.:35:42.

You could have a row with him, could you?

:35:43.:35:52.

I would just talk to him like I'm talking to you.

:35:53.:35:58.

You would say Philip? No, not usually.

:35:59.:36:02.

He would always say, if I went, now, Sir, he would go, OK,

:36:03.:36:05.

what am I being asked to do that I should not do.

:36:06.:36:08.

If I didn't bother to say that, we would just have a conversation.

:36:09.:36:11.

Because otherwise it gets in the way, I have to say.

:36:12.:36:14.

Arthur, similarly informal and pleasant?

:36:15.:36:15.

No, he treated the media like telegraph poles.

:36:16.:36:17.

They were there and he walked round them.

:36:18.:36:19.

I never had one conversation, except when I met him

:36:20.:36:21.

And after photographing him for ten years, there was a press reception

:36:22.:36:27.

in Washington and I was introduced, Arthur Edwards from The Sun.

:36:28.:36:30.

And he said, is that the Baltimore Sun?

:36:31.:36:32.

I thought, God, I'd been there ten years.

:36:33.:36:34.

We've got some of your pictures. Let's have a look at this first one.

:36:35.:36:39.

Arthur, tell us what we're looking at.

:36:40.:36:41.

This is a picture where Prince Charles has just

:36:42.:36:43.

And Lord Mountbatten and Prince Philip,

:36:44.:36:46.

And they are just congratulating him.

:36:47.:36:48.

What I love about that picture, Lord Mountbatten was hugely close

:36:49.:36:54.

to the Prince of Wales and just having his arm on his shoulder

:36:55.:36:57.

And a year later, of course, he was killed in Ireland.

:36:58.:37:01.

We went back there a couple of years ago with the Prince

:37:02.:37:04.

There was a time when I think he saw himself as the patriarchy

:37:05.:37:10.

of the family and the Queen would be the matriarch of the

:37:11.:37:13.

I think putting it simply, he wore the trousers

:37:14.:37:18.

within the household, in order that she could wear

:37:19.:37:20.

And that really was important to him.

:37:21.:37:25.

He was there to support her, he ran the family, the family

:37:26.:37:33.

business side of things and that was the first priority,

:37:34.:37:35.

Let's look at the next picture, Arthur.

:37:36.:37:38.

They have just been looking at the terracotta warriors and that,

:37:39.:37:50.

you thought, would have been the picture of the day,

:37:51.:37:53.

Because the Prince was speaking to some students and he said,

:37:54.:37:57.

The kids were saying they were bored.

:37:58.:38:00.

He said, you will end up with slitty eyes.

:38:01.:38:03.

A very intrepid reporter called Harry Arnold from The Sun got that,

:38:04.:38:06.

and before you know it, it was the splash.

:38:07.:38:08.

And we splashed on that story two days running.

:38:09.:38:10.

I remember the headline, "Philip gets it all wong".

:38:11.:38:14.

And the next day was, "Queen velly velly angry".

:38:15.:38:17.

We've never splashed on the Queen two days running

:38:18.:38:19.

on a royal tour ever, but that story...

:38:20.:38:21.

I was asked for some advice on this because China is my area.

:38:22.:38:25.

I have to say, we've brought a lot of Chinese

:38:26.:38:28.

to see him because we work with all the major religions.

:38:29.:38:30.

He has a great affection for the Taoists of China.

:38:31.:38:37.

And they're always bemused that The Sun would think

:38:38.:38:39.

this was a great story, because they just thought

:38:40.:38:41.

They didn't know how insulting it is?

:38:42.:38:46.

No, because, remember, the Chinese refer to us

:38:47.:38:48.

People who haven't been properly reincarnated.

:38:49.:38:52.

despite the good efforts of your make-up people.

:38:53.:39:00.

For them, that kind of humour, almost slapstick humour, it's fine.

:39:01.:39:04.

It was the uptight Brits who had a problem with it, not the Chinese.

:39:05.:39:07.

Some in the diplomatic service were absolutely...

:39:08.:39:09.

I think just the idea that he has these gaffes every now and then.

:39:10.:39:21.

I think that's when it became a thing, really.

:39:22.:39:23.

Yes, and also, you know, I'm delighted he did have the gaffes.

:39:24.:39:28.

He was only playing jokes with people, that was the thing.

:39:29.:39:32.

In fact, he castigated us once for reporting them,

:39:33.:39:35.

and he did admit to the slitty eyes, and he did admit that he said

:39:36.:39:38.

to aboriginals, "You're chucking spears at each other."

:39:39.:39:41.

But, he said, "You were not supposed to hear that.

:39:42.:39:43.

It's also this problem - if it's the 1000th person

:39:44.:39:51.

you've met this week, and I've seen the most

:39:52.:39:54.

incredibly intelligent, bright, active people

:39:55.:39:57.

OK, sometimes fairly heavily, but he is Navy, to sort of just

:39:58.:40:08.

This is bringing us much closer to the present.

:40:09.:40:19.

I mean, I have to tell people - it's the Duke of Edinburgh.

:40:20.:40:24.

It's at Windsor Horse Show, and it's pouring with rain.

:40:25.:40:27.

It's really a miserable day, but he brought carriage driving

:40:28.:40:30.

to prominence in Britain when he took part in it, and I think

:40:31.:40:33.

And when he's retired, he'll carry on doing it

:40:34.:40:45.

and when he goes for it, when he's in competition,

:40:46.:40:47.

So, I didn't like him for years, but ended up loving him, because...

:40:48.:40:53.

I thought he was very rude to the press.

:40:54.:40:57.

But, slowly over the years, I've got to love him.

:40:58.:41:00.

Now, when we go on an engagement, we won't be saying, "What colour do

:41:01.:41:04.

you reckon the Queen will be wearing today?".

:41:05.:41:09.

We'll be saying, "Do you think the Duke will come today?".

:41:10.:41:12.

We have a 92nd retrospective of his career on Twitter which we did not

:41:13.:41:26.

have time to run in the programme -- 90 seconds.

:41:27.:41:31.

That is just about it for tonight but we're not leaving yet -

:41:32.:41:34.

because we have another of our Proms Playouts now -

:41:35.:41:36.

tomorrow at the Albert Hall is a Brahms and Mozart night

:41:37.:41:39.

and on the programme is the hugely acclaimed young Norwegian

:41:40.:41:41.

Tomorrow she'll be playing Mozart, but tonight, for us,

:41:42.:41:44.

she is playing a piece from her new album.

:41:45.:41:46.

It is Estrellita by the Mexican composer, Manuel Ponce.

:41:47.:41:49.

Vilde is accompanied on the piano by Gamal Khamis.

:41:50.:41:51.

Southern areas bore the brunt of the wet weather today, tomorrow the

:41:52.:44:19.

wettest conditions will

:44:20.:44:21.

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