Browse content similar to 03/08/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Guilty: the top family court judge hands out an excoriating criticism | :00:07. | :00:11. | |
of mental health support for the young. | :00:12. | :00:15. | |
The particular case concerns a suicidal 17-year-old, | :00:16. | :00:24. | |
but it's a worrying sign that many others in a dangerous | :00:25. | :00:26. | |
And when they leave hospital, when they're at their greatest need, | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
at their highest risk of suicide, they don't get the support | :00:32. | :00:34. | |
We'll ask if the judge is right, and if so, | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
Despite the prospect of Brexit, or because of it. | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
Britain's economy is sluggish according to the Bank of England. | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
Is it right to be so pessimistic about the prospects? | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
We may have lost tonight, but everyone's talking | :00:49. | :00:56. | |
The amazing hockey win in Rio, the women's cricket last week, | :00:57. | :01:02. | |
women's rugby just off to the World Cup. | :01:03. | :01:05. | |
We feel that this is a watershed moment for women's sport, really. | :01:06. | :01:16. | |
Every now and then, a judge wants to use the power of the bench | :01:17. | :01:23. | |
to make a point that perhaps goes well beyond the specifics | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
Such is the case today, with Sir James Munby, | :01:27. | :01:31. | |
the president of Family Division of the High Court who uttered | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
scathing words about the treatment options for a suicidal 17 | :01:35. | :01:36. | |
If this is the best we can do for her, and others in similar | :01:37. | :01:42. | |
crisis, what right do we, what right do the system, | :01:43. | :01:44. | |
our society and indeed the state itself, have | :01:45. | :01:46. | |
The honest answer to this question should make us | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
The girl has been in custody for six months, but is due to be released | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
Staff at the unit where she is being held think she will be dead | :01:57. | :02:03. | |
within days of release if supervised care is not found, | :02:04. | :02:05. | |
but no appropriate secure place is available. | :02:06. | :02:07. | |
What right does our society have to call itself civilised given the poor | :02:08. | :02:18. | |
mental health services we provide for young people, that is the | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
question posed by a senior judge, reflecting on the fate of a | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
17-year-old woman known only as X who needs a place in the so-called | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
low secure psychiatric unit, a place that so far can't be found. Sir | :02:35. | :02:41. | |
James Munby's criticism of the government is unusually fierce and | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
he had it sent to the relevant secretaries of state, but facing a | :02:48. | :02:50. | |
case where a young woman was being let down by our mental health | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
services he felt he had no choice but to speak truth to power. | :02:55. | :03:01. | |
Sir James Munby said restraints have to be used on 117 occasions and | :03:02. | :03:08. | |
there have been 102 significant acts of self harm or | :03:09. | :03:19. | |
NHS England hopes tonight that a suitable care package might be found | :03:20. | :03:25. | |
at one of three facilities, but there is a general problem with | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
mental health care for young people. The young people and parents tell us | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
that they have to navigate the gaps in the system themselves and they | :03:34. | :03:36. | |
have to wait ridiculously long periods of time before receiving | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
that treatment, that might even be six months. There is a particular | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
problem for people with eating disorders. Some young people are | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
told their weight is too high to receive care right now, and when | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
they leave hospital at a time of great need them when they are at | :03:53. | :03:55. | |
their highest risk of suicidal but they don't get the support they | :03:56. | :04:01. | |
need. A royal college psych I survey confirms this picture. 89% said they | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
knew of young people being placed into care which is not local, a | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
challenge from local government and families, and 62% reported young | :04:13. | :04:14. | |
people being put into inappropriate settings like adult wards or police | :04:15. | :04:21. | |
cells and 14% reported patients had attempted suicide while awaiting a | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
bed. Respondents also save money has been a problem. The government | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
pledged new money to transform children's mental health and that is | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
welcome but our research last year showed that money was not reaching | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
the front line and in fact half of all commissioners were spending it | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
on other priorities. There is a particular problem around young | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
adults who have left the young People's system and joined the back | :04:47. | :04:53. | |
the adult queue. When you turn 18, literally at midnight you are taken | :04:54. | :04:56. | |
off their system and not given any further support and to be put into | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
adult services counselling you have two self referred to a different | :05:01. | :05:08. | |
system. And there are new queues? Yes, eight months waiting list for | :05:09. | :05:15. | |
them Harriet was admitted to and adult ward which struggled with her | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
needs. I saw the age gap between me and the other patients can quite | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
some distance, 25 years, I would say, and also the gender difference, | :05:26. | :05:28. | |
I was in a ward with around 12 men and three other women. It was gender | :05:29. | :05:35. | |
inappropriate and there were no appropriate activities. Harriet was | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
diagnosed with bipolar disorder and she said there was a lack of nurses. | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
There were not enough of them to look after us individually and when | :05:45. | :05:47. | |
I was attacked by a schizophrenic man on Christmas Day it was another | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
patient who saved me, if you like, before the shift nurse. And there | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
weren't many psychiatrists question up I waited 11 days before I was | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
seen by a psychiatrist and when they see you, they see you for ten | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
minutes. Mental health has had a higher profile in recent years but | :06:07. | :06:09. | |
this is still an area where there are serious systematic problems for | :06:10. | :06:10. | |
children and adults alike. Interestingly, last week, | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
the New York Times carried a long item on mental health provision | :06:15. | :06:17. | |
in England, describing it as "the world's most ambitious | :06:18. | :06:20. | |
effort to treat common mental illnesses", implying that the rest | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
of the world is watching Well, I am joined by the former | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
Minister for Children and Families Tim Loughton and mental | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
health activist Nikki Mattocks. You had many problems going right | :06:36. | :06:44. | |
back to childhood. We have heard one case in that film, how bad was it | :06:45. | :06:54. | |
for you? I became ill when I was about 14 and I struggled to get the | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
help I needed, and I was going to A repeatedly in a state of crisis, | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
I was taking overdoses and self harming and I was struggling with my | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
mental health. I was desperately trying to get help and my family was | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
on my behalf, as welcomer but there was a massive barrier and I could | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
access the help I needed -- the help. Until I took numerous | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
overdoses and I was finally listened to for the what happens when you go | :07:23. | :07:31. | |
to A? What is the spirits? You go there, the staff are generally | :07:32. | :07:34. | |
physical health trained and they don't understand the support and the | :07:35. | :07:41. | |
support you get is it necessarily helpful as you get judged a lot, but | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
you get seen by someone. I sometimes waited 18 hours, sitting there not | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
knowing what was going on, it is not appropriate for a person to go there | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
in crisis but that is where often we are sent to go. Did you ever get a | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
regular, stable consistent therapy of some kind that you needed? I did | :08:00. | :08:05. | |
manage, but from the start when I asked for help until the time when I | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
got the help I needed it took a long time, far too long. If more focus | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
was put into preventative services rather than crisis services it would | :08:16. | :08:18. | |
never have got to the point where it did. Tim is nodding his head. You | :08:19. | :08:27. | |
are trading to be a mental health nurse, so you see the service from | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
the other side stop better or worse now? I think people are trying their | :08:32. | :08:39. | |
best but because the resources are not bear from the government and | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
things, it is a massive struggle for everyone. Thanks for that. Tim, do | :08:43. | :08:49. | |
you agree with what the judge had to say today? I do, I'm afraid. Sir | :08:50. | :08:58. | |
James Munby is a senior and well respected judge, and am afraid what | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
he said is nothing new. And it is one aspect of the shortcomings of | :09:05. | :09:07. | |
mental health services in this country especially for children and | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
young people and vulnerable people, and I agree with everything that was | :09:12. | :09:14. | |
just said, and it is right that she has come forward and will speak up | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
about it. This is a severe wake-up call we have got do much better for | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
children in our country who are suffering these kind of mental | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
illnesses. What will happen to X, the woman involved in the case the | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
judge was talking about. He wants her in a low secure unit where she | :09:34. | :09:42. | |
is not held to stop other -- attacking other people, although she | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
is clearly a danger to herself, but there aren't many beds. What is | :09:47. | :09:49. | |
going to happen if there isn't one of those beds? It looks as though in | :09:50. | :09:56. | |
this case NHS England has come forward and identified the places | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
that might be able to offer her a bed when she needs it and hopefully | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
offer her the support and care and protection that she needs for as | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
long as it takes, but this is a high-profile problem today but I'm | :10:11. | :10:12. | |
afraid it is something which happens all too often, there is a shortage | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
of beds generally certainly at the severe end. The shortage of beds for | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
those people who need help because they are a harm to themselves | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
potentially but also in some cases they are a harm to others if they | :10:26. | :10:32. | |
are out at large. But also we have got to do much better as was just | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
so, not just crisis management, but early detection and prevention and | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
that means getting more staff in at an earlier stage, early detection | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
and earlier support an effective support and this is not happening in | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
too many cases at the moment. Did you see the piece in the New York | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
Times last week, it was a long piece about England as this pioneering | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
nation in mental health, is that right? Are we doing something? It | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
read a bit strangely with what we know about the treatment here. I did | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
not see that article, and I was surprised by it when you said it, | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
but there are some very good services in this country in all | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
parts of the NHS and in mental health, as well, but the problem is | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
there is not enough of it. To give the government credit, more money | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
has been an ounce, ?1.3 billion and earlier this week Jeremy Hunt said | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
we will be recruiting 23,000, a lot of people, and that will be a big | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
challenge in mental health in the next five years, with the five-year | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
plan. I want to see that come to fruition, but the problem is, there | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
are too many young people now who is mental illness is not picked up | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
early enough. Half of people who have a mental illness problem, that | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
will develop before they reach the age of 14, and if you don't do | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
something about it early, then of course it festers and continues and | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
becomes a much worse illness later on. We have got to detect early and | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
have the people there who can offer all sorts of appropriate therapies | :12:09. | :12:14. | |
inappropriate settings and quickly, and it would be a national scandal | :12:15. | :12:17. | |
if we expected people who have symptoms of cancer to wait six or 12 | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
months before they got specialist treatment and why should it be | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
anything different for someone suffering a mental illness. Everyone | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
agrees with this, but there is a parallel to what we were discussing | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
last night regarding prisons, and we had a Tory former minister saying | :12:38. | :12:43. | |
last night we have not dealt with prisons properly, and now you are | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
saying we have not dealt with children's mental health services | :12:48. | :12:49. | |
properly, so what is the country supposed to do? You have been in | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
government for the last seven years. What is the countrymen to do? We | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
look to you to get this right -- the country meant to do. We don't need | :13:01. | :13:09. | |
to make this a particle -- party political issue, because we have not | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
got this right for many years and this case is not a one-off case by | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
any means. The thing that links the interview last night and this one is | :13:18. | :13:20. | |
mental health because that is a big problem in prisons. There is a | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
mindset still amongst NHS management that mental health is a secondary | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
issue and is not a priority and for all the good words about parity of | :13:32. | :13:37. | |
esteem it is not there in practice and that is why the extra money that | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
is going into mental health, not enough, but at least it is extra | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
money going into mental health, is not getting to the sharp end where | :13:46. | :13:48. | |
is needed and it is being diverted into repairing the hospital roof and | :13:49. | :13:51. | |
other crisis management in other parts of the health service and that | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
has got to stop. We need proper practitioners giving the service at | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
the sharp end when it is needed. Thank you very much to both of you. | :14:02. | :14:07. | |
It's never a quiet day in Washington, and in the last hour | :14:08. | :14:10. | |
news has broken that the special counsel investigating the Trump | :14:11. | :14:12. | |
team's ties to Russia, Robert Mueller, has put together | :14:13. | :14:14. | |
a grand jury that has the right to compel people to give evidence. | :14:15. | :14:17. | |
John Sopel's here to tell us what this all means. | :14:18. | :14:24. | |
Is this a significant development in this special Counsel's actions? Yes, | :14:25. | :14:33. | |
it is significant, but let me add a couple of caveats, does not mean | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
that any prosecution or indictment is imminent, it doesn't mean that | :14:38. | :14:44. | |
there will be any, but a prosecution could not happen without a grand | :14:45. | :14:48. | |
jury being sworn in. If you like, it is the next logical step in the | :14:49. | :14:54. | |
investigation. That said, as you point out, they will be able to take | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
sworn statements from witnesses, subpoena people and documents to the | :15:00. | :15:02. | |
investigation, and to the simple question, does this mean the | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
investigation is winding down... Or ramping up...? Only one conclusion, | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
it is ramping up. Are the proceedings all in public, the grand | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
jury proceedings? Now, a lot of this is going to take place behind closed | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
doors, what will happen is, they are going to follow the evidence | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
wherever it takes them, it means they have great investigative | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
powers, they can compel people to give evidence. Speaking about one of | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
the first meetings they want to look at is the meeting that Donald Trump | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
junior had with the then campaign manager, and Jared Kushner, with the | :15:42. | :15:44. | |
Russians, to get dirt on Hillary Clinton. I should say there has been | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
some reaction from Donald Trump's legal team, the President's legal | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
team have said, the White House favours any that would excel rate | :15:54. | :15:56. | |
the conclusion of this work fairly, the White House is committed to | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
fully cooperating with Robert Mueller, that is very conciliatory. | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
Will those be the sentiments of Donald Trump tonight? I would guess | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
not, I would imagine he is spitting tacks about it! | :16:09. | :16:15. | |
The Bank of England didn't raise interest rates today. | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
And it also published its latest quarterly inflation report, | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
which gave a somewhat Brexit-sceptic view of the economy. | :16:24. | :16:25. | |
The bank's not predicting doom and gloom, but it IS predicting | :16:26. | :16:27. | |
The bank governor didn't use the words "despite Brexit, | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
because of Brexit the economy is not doing so well. | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
Three reasons: in the short term, it's all about us, the consumer. | :16:38. | :16:40. | |
We've already been hit by an effective pay cut thanks | :16:41. | :16:43. | |
to a lower exchange rate, pushing up prices. | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
Households looked through Brexit related uncertainties | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
as the consequences of sterling's fall have shown up in the shops | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
they've cut back on spending, slowing the economy. | :16:58. | :17:03. | |
In the medium term, it's about business investment. | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
Because if consumers spend less, we'd like companies to spend more. | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
they've invested much less aggressively than usual | :17:12. | :17:19. | |
in response to an otherwise very favourable environment. | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
less investment now means less productive capacity into the future. | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
Moreover, prolonged low investment will restrain growth in the capital | :17:28. | :17:29. | |
Indeed, if the MPC's current forecast comes to pass, | :17:30. | :17:37. | |
the level of investment in 2020 is expected to be 20 points | :17:38. | :17:53. | |
below the level which the MPC had projected just | :17:54. | :17:55. | |
That is the banks expert view, but who knows if they are right, | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
or trapped in a Remainer mindset and sticking to an old script? | :18:00. | :18:02. | |
With me now, Gerard Lyons, one of the most prominent Brexit | :18:03. | :18:04. | |
supporting economists, who has worked or works | :18:05. | :18:06. | |
And Ann Pettifor, who is author of the book "The Production | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
of Money" and a member of Labour's economic advisory committee. | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
Do you agree with my interpretation that the bank is taking a Brexit | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
sceptic view? Certainly, clearly one needs to be realistic, because there | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
are challenges, what struck me today was that in his opening statement, | :18:25. | :18:30. | |
the governor was cautious, blamed Brexit for everything, then in the | :18:31. | :18:33. | |
one-hour press conference, in terms of the short-term, he came out with | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
four positives, in my view, if he was balanced, he should have | :18:39. | :18:41. | |
mentioned them at the beginning. Inflation is falling, consumers | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
bending will grow in line with income, therefore there will not be | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
a rise in debt, he said the balance of the economy is going to improve, | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
exports and investment picking up. And also he talked about the fact | :18:55. | :18:57. | |
that the world economy will improve. Why Frankie, even though he was | :18:58. | :19:03. | |
cautious, in the one-hour press conference, you had to squeeze out | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
of ten reasons to be optimistic. Clearly there are challenges, no one | :19:08. | :19:14. | |
denies that. -- well, frankly. The bank has been optimistic for a long | :19:15. | :19:17. | |
time, about wage rights, investment, all kinds of things, and proven | :19:18. | :19:24. | |
wrong. It was pessimistic about Brexit, there was a lot more going | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
to go wrong band did go wrong. This time last year, Mark Carney said, | :19:29. | :19:34. | |
plan is better than no plans. Fully a year later, no plans. -- there was | :19:35. | :19:41. | |
a lot more going to go wrong than did go wrong. Lets remember that one | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
year ago, the Bank of England and the Treasury said that by now, we | :19:47. | :19:49. | |
would have half a mini and people unemployed because of the leave | :19:50. | :19:51. | |
vote, what has happened, unemployment is at a 42 yellow. | :19:52. | :19:58. | |
There are challenges, wages are not picking up, the governor seemed to | :19:59. | :20:02. | |
suggest that was because of Brexit. -- unemployment is at a 42 year low. | :20:03. | :20:08. | |
That is what is scary, the global economy, despite what Gerrit says | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
about the positive aspects, the global economy is weakening. | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
Inflation is falling. Everyone has been warning about rises in | :20:18. | :20:20. | |
inflation, and members of the Bank of England, they are willing to put | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
up interest rates, at a time when the consumer is quite vulnerable. -- | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
Gerard. We are very dependent upon consumers. And high levels of debt. | :20:30. | :20:36. | |
I don't think it is half as positive. Is it your view that there | :20:37. | :20:43. | |
is a groupthink, a confirmation bias, some kind of cognitive process | :20:44. | :20:48. | |
that is gripping the economic establishment and the Bank of | :20:49. | :20:51. | |
England in particular? Economic has been gripped by groupthink for ages, | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
when I said the Lawson boom was going to become a bust, I was told I | :20:56. | :20:58. | |
was wrong, I was told I was wrong that if we left the way it is a good | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
thing. There is groupthink. Today what is interesting, over and above | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
groupthink, something and has touched upon, it is about longer | :21:08. | :21:10. | |
term deep-rooted structural problems, what was underlying the | :21:11. | :21:16. | |
bank's pessimism was not Brexit, it was a lack of investment and low | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
productivity. Add Brexit to that, lack of planning, a government that | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
is paranoid, and... They certainly should plan more, no doubt. Do you | :21:26. | :21:33. | |
buy this figure, in 2020, 20% dollar investment, then there would be. -- | :21:34. | :21:39. | |
20% lull investments. That is very possible, deep lack of confidence, | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
the big thing that is missing is that the private sector is over | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
indebted, worried, lacking in confidence. -- 20% lower | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
investments. The government should be stepping in but instead, it is | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
opposed to investment, that will not even move the needle. -- proposed. | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
More infrastructure, things like that. The government has to step in | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
because the private sector is so weak, despite interest rates. Do you | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
buy this figure, do you accept that by 2020, investment may be 20% | :22:13. | :22:21. | |
lower. Yes. Today, the governor said, the supply is down to one and | :22:22. | :22:24. | |
three quarters percent, but in the press conference, he said they have | :22:25. | :22:27. | |
been cutting it for the last nine yes, what we need is investment, | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
infrastructure spending and more innovation. The three Is. If we have | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
Brexit and we do it properly, we will not only protect workers' | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
rights, we will have more innovation from the small medium-sized business | :22:41. | :22:47. | |
sector. This is far too delusional, honestly, you cannot... There are | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
challenges, I agree. Brexit is going to be utterly destructive and we | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
have no plan for it, short-term, medium-term, long-term plan, for | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
what will happen to this complex network of relationships, trading | :23:01. | :23:02. | |
relationships we have with European partners, we have no plan, no proper | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
transitional plan. And that is terrifying. And that is why we have | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
low-level is of investment, low-level is... Why we will continue | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
to have... You must accept that Brexit has at least put a lot of | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
company's decisions on hold, so maybe there will be a spurt when... | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
At the moment they are saying, we had better wait and see. A year ago | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
I was on this programme and I thought the economy would do well | :23:29. | :23:33. | |
over the last year, it did do, I called it a Nike swoosh, that there | :23:34. | :23:39. | |
might be an impact on uncertainty, there is a reaction between policy | :23:40. | :23:43. | |
and competence, the most difficult to predict is confidence, if the | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
leaders start to talk us into an unnecessary downturn, then those | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
people, those companies, the ability to spend or not spend, what I'm | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
saying is, we need more balance in the debate, Brexit has challenges | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
but great opportunities. If we have a unplanned Brexit and a weakening | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
economy, that is the worst of all worlds, that is terrifying for most | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
people involved, both in the public and private sector. The debate | :24:10. | :24:11. | |
remains unresolved. Paul Kagame has been the President | :24:12. | :24:22. | |
of Rwanda since 2000, but has had a dominant role | :24:23. | :24:24. | |
in running the country right back to the time | :24:25. | :24:27. | |
of the civil war of the 90s, when his rebels brought | :24:28. | :24:29. | |
an end to the genocide. he faces the voters again tomorrow | :24:30. | :24:32. | |
in a national election. Although pundits have | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
got a lot of electoral predictions wrong recently, | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
no-one has much doubt that Kagame will still be | :24:42. | :24:42. | |
in power after the ballot. For one thing, at the last election | :24:43. | :24:45. | |
in 2010, he got 93 % of the vote. And anyway, three potential | :24:46. | :24:48. | |
opponents were disqualified from standing by the electoral | :24:49. | :24:50. | |
commission there. But Kagame is a complex | :24:51. | :24:52. | |
character, and arouses very | :24:53. | :24:53. | |
different reactions. Here he is speaking | :24:54. | :24:54. | |
in 1999 about the genocide Well, you can imagine, | :24:55. | :24:57. | |
somebody, an orphan, no father, the mother, | :24:58. | :24:59. | |
no sisters, no relatives. We need to get together, | :25:00. | :25:01. | |
we need to understand our history, we need to educate our people | :25:02. | :25:15. | |
how to overcome that, but those who were responsible | :25:16. | :25:24. | |
for the genocide For some, he's just another African | :25:25. | :25:26. | |
dictator, albeit a smooth talker. For others, he's a force | :25:27. | :25:29. | |
for stability despite any flaws. a former aide to President Kagame | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
who is now in exile in Canada. What was it that made you leave? | :25:34. | :25:56. | |
Well, my issue, actually, was more about statistical manipulations, he | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
always wanted... He would basically dictate the percentages that | :26:02. | :26:10. | |
economic growth had achieved. I was always uncomfortable, and I started | :26:11. | :26:20. | |
to oppose him, and that would have been 2009. As we were getting closer | :26:21. | :26:26. | |
to the elections, that we just mentioned, the place started to get | :26:27. | :26:32. | |
a lot more violence... I decided that was not for me. I fled and I | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
went to South Africa. There will be an election tomorrow, you obviously | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
will not be voting, you are in ex-aisle. We are certain he wins, is | :26:42. | :26:48. | |
it a free and fair election? No, it cannot be a fair election because | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
the people who could have challenged him have been blocked from | :26:54. | :27:00. | |
competing. Almost all the political parties are behind him. And he | :27:01. | :27:06. | |
himself announced a few days ago that he will win by 100%. So that is | :27:07. | :27:14. | |
exact to what will happen, the opposition, in early elections, some | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
of the opposition leaders were imprisoned. They remain in prison. | :27:19. | :27:26. | |
One of them was killed. And others have fled into ex-aisle. I would be | :27:27. | :27:31. | |
surprised indeed if he does not get 100%. He seems to have a way with a | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
lot of foreign leaders, Bill Clinton called him one of the great leaders | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
of our time. What is it that you think makes him so impressive to | :27:42. | :27:50. | |
many others? Basically, he has developed a brand about himself, he | :27:51. | :28:00. | |
has branded himself as kind of a equivalent to the premiere of | :28:01. | :28:03. | |
Singapore, developing reminder, and he has argued there is a trade-off. | :28:04. | :28:12. | |
What has to be done now is economic development, human rights and | :28:13. | :28:15. | |
democracy can wait. A lot of people have bought into that. Plus, there | :28:16. | :28:23. | |
was a bit of sympathy, given to the way that the UN moralists abandoned | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
reminder during the genocide. So people have turned a blind eye. -- | :28:28. | :28:37. | |
abandoned Rwanda. The price isn't too high, when you look at the total | :28:38. | :28:44. | |
suppression of the population. Despite this economic miracle. The | :28:45. | :28:52. | |
UK aid programme, we give aid to Rwanda and you think it is wrong to | :28:53. | :28:57. | |
do that. Yes, the British aid is the worst age, because basically, | :28:58. | :29:03. | |
Britain dumps taxpayer money into Paul Kagame's budget, and he is the | :29:04. | :29:09. | |
only one that decides what happens. What happens to British aid? You | :29:10. | :29:14. | |
will never know, at least other countries... Yes? I need to move | :29:15. | :29:17. | |
onto Andrew Mitchell, but your point has been well made. | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
And joining me now is former International Development | :29:22. | :29:22. | |
Do you buy this criticism of aid, we were suspending aid, you were the | :29:23. | :29:30. | |
Secretary of State who came in and said, turn on the tap, give him the | :29:31. | :29:36. | |
cash. I suspended it and then restored it, and indeed, it has been | :29:37. | :29:39. | |
restored not as general budget support, David is wrong on that | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
point, but as specific support to agriculture and education. We know | :29:45. | :29:48. | |
that in Rwanda, the quality of the way our money is spent is yielding | :29:49. | :29:53. | |
quite remarkable results, for example, in the last three or four | :29:54. | :29:56. | |
is, Rwanda has managed to lift more than 1 million people out of | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
poverty, remarkable success story. -- in the last three or four years. | :30:02. | :30:07. | |
David says that the statistics have been made up, so we know that from | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
our own statistics. It is followed very carefully by that department, | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
and it is in Rwanda. David says that a lot of people take the view, | :30:17. | :30:20. | |
trample over human rights if you can get the economy right, is that your | :30:21. | :30:23. | |
view of how develop and sometimes work? It is not, because I think we | :30:24. | :30:27. | |
are right to press with reminder that they open up the political | :30:28. | :30:31. | |
space more, open of the media space more. -- with Rwanda. But they have | :30:32. | :30:37. | |
made remarkable progress since this terrible genocide took place and the | :30:38. | :30:40. | |
country was destroyed. The truth is, president Paul Kagame rescued his | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
country while the world looked the other way and has built a stable and | :30:45. | :30:49. | |
strong state, and if you are a waitress, working there tonight, you | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
can walk home safely, for people like that, that is the first and | :30:55. | :30:57. | |
most important human rights, that the terrible violence in Rwanda was | :30:58. | :31:02. | |
ended. Will the election be free and fair? Yes. | :31:03. | :31:08. | |
I suspect he will win, although the numbers will go down because the | :31:09. | :31:17. | |
space has opened up, but the previous elections were marred by | :31:18. | :31:19. | |
violence and that hasn't happened this time for the day last two | :31:20. | :31:25. | |
elections were over 90%, was that a true reflection of public support? I | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
think it is, this is a country that was destroyed by Buydens but he has | :31:31. | :31:33. | |
stopped that and he has built an economy that is strong -- destroyed | :31:34. | :31:40. | |
by violence. We have got to be careful in the West, not judging | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
ways to a Westminster lens, and I say this, although previous | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
elections were marred by elements of violence, this election so far has | :31:50. | :31:53. | |
been entirely peaceful and it has been more peaceful than the British | :31:54. | :31:56. | |
election which took place a few months ago. But the Electoral | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
Commission has banned some of the most credible opponents. There was | :32:02. | :32:07. | |
one opponent who did not have the correct number of supporters on her | :32:08. | :32:10. | |
nomination paper and in Britain, if we stand in an election we have to | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
have a certain number of supporters who are on the register in our | :32:16. | :32:18. | |
constituencies, and she was in breach of that. If I had been in | :32:19. | :32:22. | |
breach of that at the last election I would not STUDIO: -- I would | :32:23. | :32:30. | |
have been struck off the register, as well. I am listening to your | :32:31. | :32:36. | |
critic but I hear these criticisms of the Labour Party regarding | :32:37. | :32:42. | |
Venezuelan politics at the moment, but you seem to be taking a rather | :32:43. | :32:49. | |
ambivalent view of Paul Kagame. Are you starry eye? I have been there | :32:50. | :32:57. | |
before, I will be taking a project there, we know the country very | :32:58. | :33:00. | |
well, and we know what is happening there, and I have not said anything | :33:01. | :33:06. | |
about the Labour Party and Venezuela, but I would say that they | :33:07. | :33:11. | |
are completely different, Rwanada and byes. Rwanda is much better run. | :33:12. | :33:17. | |
Thanks for joining us. So in the women's European | :33:18. | :33:22. | |
football championships tonight, England lost | :33:23. | :33:24. | |
to the Netherlands, 3-0. Sadly failing to make their way | :33:25. | :33:27. | |
to the final of the tournament. The viewing figures for the match | :33:28. | :33:31. | |
are not in yet, obviously, but the audience for Sunday's | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
quarter final game on Channel 4 In fact, that England France game | :33:36. | :33:38. | |
was even watched by a million The money for womens' football may | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
be small, the entire revenue for the tournament is probably | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
a tenth of Neymar's transfer fee, but as everybody keeps saying, | :33:47. | :33:49. | |
there is unprecedented interest Our culture editor, Stephen Smith | :33:50. | :33:51. | |
has jumped on the bandwagon. COMMENTATOR: Three | :33:52. | :34:02. | |
in the penalty area. It was a decisive win | :34:03. | :34:04. | |
for the Lionesses. But alas, for fans of | :34:05. | :34:13. | |
England's women, that turned out to be the nickname | :34:14. | :34:15. | |
of the Dutch team as well as ours. But even though England have been | :34:16. | :34:18. | |
dumped out of the semis, the consolation for the losers | :34:19. | :34:24. | |
is that their run in the tournament has put the game | :34:25. | :34:27. | |
in the spotlight at home. ARCHIVE VOICOVER: Girls | :34:28. | :34:35. | |
will be girls, and as football is a man's game, | :34:36. | :34:37. | |
girls have to play it. And take a look at the way these | :34:38. | :34:40. | |
Darlington girls dress for the game. The women's game hasn't always | :34:41. | :34:43. | |
basked in the unalloyed respect of the men who attended to report | :34:44. | :34:46. | |
on it and administered it. You never saw such fast | :34:47. | :34:48. | |
girls in your life. At least the 10,000 | :34:49. | :34:51. | |
spectators think so. Altogether there is | :34:52. | :34:52. | |
a lot of pretty play. Despite the sizeable crowd drawn | :34:53. | :34:54. | |
to this fixture, the FA frowned on women's football | :34:55. | :34:57. | |
for a while as unladylike. I think if you talk to these | :34:58. | :34:59. | |
players, of course they want to earn a living, and so they should, | :35:00. | :35:02. | |
playing the game they love, but what makes them special | :35:03. | :35:05. | |
and what is very visible when you work with them, | :35:06. | :35:07. | |
is they haven't lost the feeling Someone who had to battle through | :35:08. | :35:10. | |
life to be the best you could be. And I think we want that | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
sort of Olympian spirit, Shot-stopping practice | :35:16. | :35:17. | |
for the London Bees, putting in some preseason | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
training this evening. They are semiprofessional | :35:23. | :35:25. | |
players, earning several They are linked to the second | :35:26. | :35:26. | |
division men's side Barnet. The women play to crowds | :35:27. | :35:36. | |
of up to 700 supporters. There is clearly not as much money | :35:37. | :35:41. | |
in the game so you probably have more female players who are just | :35:42. | :35:45. | |
in it for the love of the game. I think there's a few of the girls | :35:46. | :35:48. | |
already who are full-time in the top women's league but I think it needs | :35:49. | :35:56. | |
to progress throughout the top couple of women's leagues for it | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
to really push on and progress. Because if we have our full-time | :36:01. | :36:04. | |
jobs and then we're coming to training until 1030 at night, | :36:05. | :36:08. | |
then we have got to be in our jobs the next day | :36:09. | :36:11. | |
it is quite hard mentally. Are there still misconceptions, | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
things that people say to you that Yes, there will always be people | :36:16. | :36:17. | |
who compare men's and women's football but to be honest | :36:18. | :36:23. | |
they are two completely Yes, I wouldn't compare them, | :36:24. | :36:25. | |
there is different skill sets You don't have to choose to support | :36:26. | :36:33. | |
a men's team or a woman's team. I can imagine some football fans | :36:34. | :36:44. | |
spit died on the Wall St, if it's a choice between a good men's game and | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
a good women's game, I would go for the former -- died in the wall. | :36:49. | :36:55. | |
Football is a game of opinions and everyone is entitled to their | :36:56. | :36:57. | |
opinion and I know everyone who comes to watch a women's game gets | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
full value and more. The ticket prices in the men's game have gone | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
up and up and if you want to take your family and friends to a game it | :37:07. | :37:10. | |
is increasingly more difficult, but you can guarantee value for money | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
when you do come to a women's football game, whether it is | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
international or the national teams. And there is the whistle. Back in | :37:19. | :37:25. | |
the Netherlands, the sad truth for England is that the Dutch were very | :37:26. | :37:30. | |
good value for their win. It wasn't Alan Knight, things did not go our | :37:31. | :37:34. | |
way, and they are a good team. -- it wasn't our night. Tough crowd to | :37:35. | :37:40. | |
play in front of and we are disappointed but it wasn't Alan | :37:41. | :37:43. | |
Knight. The rude health of women's football will not be on the other | :37:44. | :37:46. | |
minds of England's players who are as sick as a parrot tonight. | :37:47. | :37:52. | |
We can have a quick look at the papers, the Financial Times is | :37:53. | :37:59. | |
leading on that Bank of England and Brexit, Mark Carney warning Brexit | :38:00. | :38:02. | |
uncertainty is choking business investment. The Times, NHS must cut | :38:03. | :38:11. | |
waste if it wants more cash. There is a picture of someone who stole | :38:12. | :38:17. | |
?1000 of goods from Harrods and was given a conditional discharge by a | :38:18. | :38:20. | |
magistrate who praised her considerable talents and there will | :38:21. | :38:25. | |
be follow up to that. Daily Mail front page, get to the airport three | :38:26. | :38:31. | |
hours early, advice for British holiday-makers returning from | :38:32. | :38:35. | |
Europe, to do with them imposing border controls of some kind. | :38:36. | :38:39. | |
Before we go, today came the sad news of the death | :38:40. | :38:42. | |
He was best known as Siegfried in All Creatures Great and Small, or - | :38:43. | :38:52. | |
to a younger audience - as Cornelius Fudge in | :38:53. | :38:54. | |
But it may well be his acclaimed portrayal of Winston Churchill - | :38:55. | :39:02. | |
a part he played in five different films - that will be | :39:03. | :39:05. | |
Here's a taste from 1981's The Wilderness Years, | :39:06. | :39:08. | |
I don't suppose that this is the end. | :39:09. | :39:16. | |
This is only the beginning of the reckoning. | :39:17. | :39:18. | |
This is only the first sip, the first foretaste of a bitter cup. | :39:19. | :39:21. | |
It will be proffered to us year by year unless... | :39:22. | :39:29. | |
Unless, by a supreme recovery of martial vigour we arise again | :39:30. | :39:32. | |
More downpour dodging to be done over the next few days, sunshine and | :39:33. | :39:51. | |
showers again | :39:52. | :39:53. |