04/08/2017 Newsnight


04/08/2017

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COMMENTATOR: He's a one-man world superpower, victory for Mo Farah!

:00:09.:00:16.

STUDIO: A victory lap tonight for Mo,

:00:17.:00:20.

but what of the sport As athletics fights

:00:21.:00:23.

to clean up its act, how confident is the head

:00:24.:00:26.

of the world anti-doping agency At the moment, without doubt,

:00:27.:00:28.

the toughest thing that I've ever Also tonight - is Kenya facing

:00:29.:00:32.

another bloody election? We, as supporters,

:00:33.:00:36.

will have to fight And this British man died

:00:37.:00:45.

battling IS alongside His mother joins us to share her

:00:46.:00:50.

thoughts on his legacy. There were familiar scenes

:00:51.:01:05.

at London's Olympic Stadium tonight as Sir Mo Farah won another

:01:06.:01:11.

10,000 metre gold in It's been just five years

:01:12.:01:14.

since Farah made his name as London, world athletics and British

:01:15.:01:19.

brilliance combined to create an Olympic Games that ranked among

:01:20.:01:22.

the most successful in history But since then athletics has been

:01:23.:01:25.

mired in doping scandals which has seen the Russian team excluded

:01:26.:01:34.

from international competitions and Mo Farah has never failed a drugs

:01:35.:01:36.

test. But his coach Alberto Salazar

:01:37.:01:49.

remains the subject of an investigation by US anti

:01:50.:01:50.

doping chiefs - though of course Some in the sport are critical of

:01:51.:01:53.

the speed at which the investigation that could clear them

:01:54.:02:10.

has been conducted. And what will become of the sport

:02:11.:02:11.

once Mo and its other big names like Usain Bolt depart

:02:12.:02:16.

after these games? COMMENTATOR: The women's 1500 metres

:02:17.:02:21.

gets underway. The London Olympics in 2012 was a triumph in semi-ways

:02:22.:02:25.

by doping is casting an ever darker shadow over it -- so many wastrels

:02:26.:02:35.

of this race has been dubbed the dirtiest traceable time, the winner

:02:36.:02:39.

was previously banned for two years from 2004 on two 2006, she has been

:02:40.:02:44.

stripped of the gold medal and has been serving a ban and the silver

:02:45.:02:53.

medallist has also been found guilty of irregularities in her biological

:02:54.:02:59.

passport. The fifth placed runner was later banned for meldonium use

:03:00.:03:04.

but had her suspension overturned. In seventh place, an athlete banned

:03:05.:03:10.

for biological passport abnormalities and in ninth place an

:03:11.:03:14.

athlete who will be banned for two years for the attended use of a

:03:15.:03:19.

prohibited substance or method. The Mail on Sunday calculated that of

:03:20.:03:24.

650 athletes, at track and field finals at London 2012, 87 have had

:03:25.:03:30.

doping violations. It has increased now to 88, a further 188 have doping

:03:31.:03:38.

associations, either their coach or agent or doctor is associated or

:03:39.:03:45.

they have missed or failed a test. The World Championships that started

:03:46.:03:47.

today was supposed to draw a line under the saga, medals are being

:03:48.:03:52.

rewarded and Russia is still not here because of its doping

:03:53.:03:56.

violations. The Russian athletes who are here compete as independents. We

:03:57.:04:06.

can use some Russian close with the Russian flag colours, they are

:04:07.:04:15.

strict rules, so we can use any kind of science on your body and in your

:04:16.:04:20.

hair, with a Russian flag, something even close to this will stop so how

:04:21.:04:27.

confident should we be? It is possible to have a sport where the

:04:28.:04:31.

vast majority of people you are watching our clean and I think that

:04:32.:04:34.

is the case, it is harder for an athlete to cheat and you have got to

:04:35.:04:39.

take the federations usually, to ban a whole country in Russia is a

:04:40.:04:45.

serious step to take. People will be looking at the 2017 World

:04:46.:04:48.

Championships in London with scepticism which is what athletics

:04:49.:04:52.

deserves given its track record, and there will be dozens of convicted

:04:53.:04:57.

dopers taking part in the championships, that's a matter of

:04:58.:05:02.

public record, people who have taken drugs and come back from bands.

:05:03.:05:08.

Public trust matters. All the athletes you watch running for Great

:05:09.:05:12.

Britain have been subsidised by the National Lottery which has changed

:05:13.:05:17.

the face of athletics. If the public lose faith in athletics, it will be

:05:18.:05:22.

harder to justify lottery spending, and they have got to win medals, as

:05:23.:05:25.

well, and that will get harder without the likes of Mo Farah and

:05:26.:05:30.

Jessica Ennis-Hill and Rutherford not jumping. Athletics will face a

:05:31.:05:39.

challenge as Usain Bolt believes the sport, a paragon of clean living.

:05:40.:05:49.

The fastest 30 times in that event have been run entirely by dopers

:05:50.:05:54.

apart from The Times clock by Usain Bolt. The person who has

:05:55.:06:01.

single-handedly carried the sport, almost, he has transcended the

:06:02.:06:03.

sport, a global superstar but he won't be there after this year. That

:06:04.:06:10.

will be a very big void to fill. The passing of a great may show up the

:06:11.:06:15.

depth of the problems in track and field. Chris Cook, reporting.

:06:16.:06:23.

Sir Craig Reedie is a few months into his second term

:06:24.:06:26.

as President of WADA, the world anti-doping agency,

:06:27.:06:30.

and as such the man ultimately responsible for cleaning

:06:31.:06:32.

Earlier this evening I button-holed him outside his hotel

:06:33.:06:36.

Luckily, we also managed to borrow a couple of chairs

:06:37.:06:40.

I began by asking him how tarnished athletics is now compare to his

:06:41.:06:49.

career as a badminton player. Athletics certainly suffered

:06:50.:06:52.

from the revelations in 2015, when the biggest country

:06:53.:06:56.

in the world was clearly involved in cheating, and secondly

:06:57.:07:02.

when the International Federation I think they are making progress

:07:03.:07:05.

and I encourage them to do that, and we work closely with them

:07:06.:07:16.

as they do that. We have one of our finest athletes,

:07:17.:07:18.

Mo Farah, running in London under His coach, Alberto

:07:19.:07:22.

Salazar, won't be here. There are reports, as you know,

:07:23.:07:29.

of suppression of investigations. So it isn't just the Russians that

:07:30.:07:32.

leave a slightly sour taste. Well, you can remember

:07:33.:07:35.

after the Rio games, the discord and trouble caused

:07:36.:07:39.

by an organisation called the Fancy Bears, who reacted

:07:40.:07:43.

to what they saw as treatment They were, who immediately of course

:07:44.:07:45.

found people who had therapeutic use exemptions who happened to come

:07:46.:07:55.

from Western medal-winning countries Personally, I'm disappointed

:07:56.:08:00.

in that it has taken too long This has been going on for

:08:01.:08:08.

about three years now. I think the United States

:08:09.:08:15.

Anti-Doping Agency would be well served if they reached a decision

:08:16.:08:17.

sooner rather than later. Can the people lining up

:08:18.:08:20.

on the starting line at these games be more confident

:08:21.:08:27.

than they were in Rio, more confident than they were in London,

:08:28.:08:29.

the clean athletes, can they be confident that they're not lining up

:08:30.:08:32.

against doped athletes? Athletics here have pre-games tested

:08:33.:08:35.

any number of athletes. There have been something

:08:36.:08:38.

like 5,000 different urine There will be another 600

:08:39.:08:40.

done in competition. So athletes know that,

:08:41.:08:47.

and it would be foolish for any In addition, they will keep samples

:08:48.:08:50.

from London for a period So if you're so smart that

:08:51.:08:55.

you don't get caught now, the chances are that you will be

:08:56.:09:00.

caught at some date in the future. So I assure you that

:09:01.:09:03.

everything is being done, That said, I can't sit here and be

:09:04.:09:06.

complacent in any way. This is an argument that has to go

:09:07.:09:16.

on on a day-to-day basis. And it would also help if we had

:09:17.:09:19.

a bit more money to do it. For me, as a fan of athletics,

:09:20.:09:27.

it's the dope users who pass the tests that are the problem,

:09:28.:09:30.

not the ones who fail the tests, because the technology

:09:31.:09:34.

and the effort, the laboratories we read about, the supplements,

:09:35.:09:38.

the mysterious substances crossing borders in Jiffy bags,

:09:39.:09:41.

the effort that is put into not failing the dope tests

:09:42.:09:45.

is where the attention surely needs People need to understand

:09:46.:09:48.

that this is an ongoing and changing situation,

:09:49.:09:52.

every minute of every day. We have our own investigations

:09:53.:09:57.

department and our own But to run both of these,

:09:58.:09:59.

you need to have large And how you collect that information

:10:00.:10:04.

is time-consuming and expensive, and when you analyse it,

:10:05.:10:14.

you act properly on it. When I say act properly,

:10:15.:10:18.

we are a sports organisation. Sometimes it would help if we had

:10:19.:10:20.

law enforcement more But I refuse to sit here and say

:10:21.:10:24.

either that we have no problem, or even worse, from my point

:10:25.:10:30.

of view, "I'm sorry, I'm so depressed that I'm

:10:31.:10:34.

not prepared to carry It's like that Greek fella pushing

:10:35.:10:36.

the rock up the hill and when he got to the top,

:10:37.:10:42.

it started rolling back down again. It is without doubt the toughest

:10:43.:10:46.

thing I have tried to do in sport. Success looks like a much,

:10:47.:10:50.

much reduced number of athletes being caught cheating

:10:51.:10:58.

by testing positive. We have to be smart

:10:59.:11:03.

in our own research, in our own understanding,

:11:04.:11:07.

that we test for the correct substance in the correct athlete

:11:08.:11:09.

in the correct event, I have a sense that the police,

:11:10.:11:12.

as in many areas of life, many areas of wrongdoing,

:11:13.:11:18.

the police, which is you, are playing catch up

:11:19.:11:21.

with the criminal. Well, I would like to think

:11:22.:11:23.

we are closer to them than you might think,

:11:24.:11:25.

James. David Walsh is chief sports writer

:11:26.:11:29.

for the Sunday Times and was responsible for exposing

:11:30.:11:33.

doping by the cyclist He has also written

:11:34.:11:35.

extensively about athletics It is unfortunate that we have to

:11:36.:11:49.

discuss Mo Farah's swansong in the context of the continuing

:11:50.:11:53.

investigation, how much does this pollute his legacy potentially? It

:11:54.:11:59.

doesn't enhance his legacy, that he has worked with Alberto Salazar, a

:12:00.:12:05.

coach who has a lot of questions to answer at the very least. Both

:12:06.:12:09.

adamant there has been no wrongdoing. Yes, years, but the

:12:10.:12:14.

United States anti-doping agency are still investigating Alberto Salazar

:12:15.:12:19.

and we have testimony from any athletes who worked with him who

:12:20.:12:22.

were unhappy about his methods. That isn't to say that Mo Farah dopes but

:12:23.:12:28.

it would be much better for his credibility if he had no connection

:12:29.:12:33.

with Alberto Salazar. You heard Craig Reedie being interviewed, he

:12:34.:12:39.

talks a good game, do you think that Wada is fit for purpose? It might be

:12:40.:12:46.

if it had sufficient funding. Craig Reedie is in his second term and I

:12:47.:12:52.

have a sense of a man who is only now getting a grip on the problem

:12:53.:12:59.

that exists. He has had a very unimpressive first term. When this

:13:00.:13:04.

Russian controversy broke, his initial reaction was to hope that it

:13:05.:13:10.

would pass without becoming a major controversy. Of course it was going

:13:11.:13:15.

to become a major controversy because we had outstanding

:13:16.:13:24.

whistle-blowers in Russia. Stepanov told us what was going on in Russia,

:13:25.:13:29.

and for the athletes who were competing... Who are competing in

:13:30.:13:33.

this World Championship in London now, it is significant that there

:13:34.:13:36.

are not many Russians here, the Russian team is not there, and that

:13:37.:13:41.

is to athletics credit that they have basically kicked out Russia for

:13:42.:13:46.

the Rio games and they are still out. Chris Cook's film earlier, that

:13:47.:13:54.

was astonishing, to see the women's race in which almost everyone was

:13:55.:13:58.

found to have been in some sort of contravention of the rules. Are you

:13:59.:14:02.

confident that webby happening in London in the next few days? --

:14:03.:14:10.

won't be happening. Yes, I am. The IAAF was corrupt at that time and

:14:11.:14:13.

the people were aiding and abetting doping and some of them were

:14:14.:14:18.

profiting from doping so we have the most appalling situation. Many

:14:19.:14:23.

British people will have great memories of London 2012 but much of

:14:24.:14:29.

what we watched was fraudulent and the legacy has been besmirched by

:14:30.:14:35.

that. I don't think the IAAF is corrupt today in the way it was then

:14:36.:14:39.

and I think there have been great improvements and the fact they have

:14:40.:14:42.

voted to sanction Russia in the way they have. That is to their credit.

:14:43.:14:48.

Will there be any dopers involved in these games? Of course. I don't

:14:49.:14:53.

think you can watch any major event in athletics and in some other

:14:54.:14:58.

sports and not have some dopers but there will be less. One thing we

:14:59.:15:06.

should all remember, the greatest controversy we have seen in terms of

:15:07.:15:12.

doping was enacted at the Winter Olympics where the Russian state

:15:13.:15:15.

conspired to cheat their way to gold medals, what they did was substitute

:15:16.:15:20.

you're in because that was the only where they could beat the tests for

:15:21.:15:25.

the not many countries could do that because that involve huge planning

:15:26.:15:28.

and the involvement of the state police and the former KGB. Many of

:15:29.:15:33.

those agents were involved, and that isn't going to happen in many other

:15:34.:15:38.

places, but the reason Russia did that is because the anti-doping

:15:39.:15:43.

tests do work anti-circumvention MP had to actually substitute -- they

:15:44.:15:50.

actually had to substitute. They could be far more effective than

:15:51.:15:54.

they are and the doping problem would be either would say

:15:55.:15:57.

significantly less if we put enough money into it. Very briefly, with

:15:58.:16:02.

big stars heading off into the sunset like Hussein Barr, is the

:16:03.:16:06.

sport heading into the doldrums? -- Usain Bolt. Athletics is losing its

:16:07.:16:12.

audience, no doubt, and losing Mo Farah and especially Usain Bolt

:16:13.:16:20.

won't help, but sport survives. Golf is used to worry about what would

:16:21.:16:23.

happen when Tiger Woods went into decline, that happened, and golf is

:16:24.:16:26.

still there. Athletics will live long after Mo Farah and Usain Bolt.

:16:27.:16:31.

Thanks for joining us. The incumbent, President Uhuru

:16:32.:16:35.

Kenyatta is up against his old rival Raila Odinga, who's trying

:16:36.:16:40.

for what will be his fourth - and, at 72, possibly his last -

:16:41.:16:43.

attempt to become president. The polls suggest it's close,

:16:44.:16:46.

and given Kenya's recent history, how the election is run,

:16:47.:16:48.

who wins and how the loser takes it, will decide whether the country

:16:49.:16:51.

descends into violence as it did a decade ago, or becomes a champion

:16:52.:16:54.

of African democracy. Tensions are running high -

:16:55.:16:58.

not helped by the brutal abduction, torture and murder this week

:16:59.:17:01.

of the man in charge This from the BBC's

:17:02.:17:03.

Africa Correspondent It's not just politicians who bring

:17:04.:17:09.

rallies to the slums of Nairobi. If anyone gets upset

:17:10.:17:21.

about the election result, the violence will break out here,

:17:22.:17:26.

and so they're urging Rachel is a feminist

:17:27.:17:28.

and an activist in Mathare, one of the biggest

:17:29.:17:37.

slums in the capital. The march is straddling two wards

:17:38.:17:41.

with different politics. If Kenyans are told

:17:42.:17:46.

the election was free and fair, Even in the slums, as much

:17:47.:17:48.

as they are using words to criminalise us, telling us it's

:17:49.:17:55.

a hotspot, if they know the election is free

:17:56.:17:57.

and fair, they cannot disturb. Rallies have been romping

:17:58.:18:05.

across the country for weeks. This is opposition orange,

:18:06.:18:07.

and green, and blue and white. The National Super Alliance,

:18:08.:18:10.

they're called, Nasa, five opposition parties

:18:11.:18:12.

on one ticket. Raila Odinga is their

:18:13.:18:17.

presidential candidate, Since then, the Odingas have

:18:18.:18:20.

always been in opposition. It's his fourth attempt to get

:18:21.:18:31.

the top job, and at 72, probably his last, and that makes

:18:32.:18:34.

the stakes even higher. "the driver is drunk

:18:35.:18:36.

and the conductor is a thief". Drivers and conductors

:18:37.:18:42.

aside, their alliance Uhuru Kenyatta, son

:18:43.:18:51.

of Kenya's first president. The big political dynasties

:18:52.:18:58.

live on more than 50 The success of this

:18:59.:19:01.

whole ballot depends The Independent Electoral

:19:02.:19:06.

and Boundaries Commission, or IEBC, In a country where vote-rigging has

:19:07.:19:10.

been suspected in the past and is expected in the future,

:19:11.:19:17.

their computerised voting system is the key to free

:19:18.:19:21.

and fair elections. If it works, fixing the result

:19:22.:19:24.

will be an awful lot harder The public demonstration went well,

:19:25.:19:27.

but if the computer system fails, And given what has

:19:28.:19:33.

happened in the past week, Chris Msando was the acting head

:19:34.:19:38.

of IT at the Electoral Commission, "The system's safe with me",

:19:39.:19:45.

he said, but then he disappeared. This time last week,

:19:46.:19:52.

he left the IEBC building and went He was meeting a 21-year-old

:19:53.:19:54.

graduate student known as Carol. What happened over the next few

:19:55.:20:03.

hours is a lot less certain. His Land Rover was seen

:20:04.:20:07.

driving across Nairobi. At one point, four people

:20:08.:20:10.

may have been inside, Elsewhere, he was on the phone

:20:11.:20:15.

looking agitated. First, his car was recovered

:20:16.:20:20.

on one side of town. Then on the other side of the city,

:20:21.:20:27.

two bodies were discovered. Both he and the young

:20:28.:20:30.

graduate, Carol Ngumbu, People jumped to their own

:20:31.:20:35.

conclusions, and it's put A senior Kenyan lawyer wants

:20:36.:20:41.

a commission of inquiry for this and other cases

:20:42.:20:53.

of what he calls Apart from being a chilling effect

:20:54.:20:55.

on the general populace and even other employees of the electoral

:20:56.:20:59.

body, it again just highlights how we have, for too long,

:21:00.:21:04.

left extrajudicial killings Corruption is a huge

:21:05.:21:10.

part of the problem. This footage was filmed

:21:11.:21:16.

by citizen journalists. It's common, and just

:21:17.:21:19.

the tip of the iceberg. The police officer stops,

:21:20.:21:24.

opens the door and grabs something. John-Allan Namu is an investigative

:21:25.:21:29.

journalist for Africa Corruption is endemic

:21:30.:21:31.

in this country. It's taken over very many parts

:21:32.:21:38.

of government operations. A third of our resources

:21:39.:21:40.

are believed to be lost It's driven by a lot

:21:41.:21:42.

of private-sector impunity, Nothing ever gets resolved.

:21:43.:21:49.

No one ever goes to jail. Ten years ago, terrible

:21:50.:21:54.

post-election ethnic violence killed more than 1,200 people amid claims

:21:55.:22:01.

that it was rigged, International Criminal Court charges

:22:02.:22:04.

against the deputy president and President Kenyatta collapsed

:22:05.:22:12.

when witnesses died mysteriously. At the last election,

:22:13.:22:18.

the computer system failed. Rachel's friends in Mathare

:22:19.:22:20.

are worried it will happen again. We are a bit scared,

:22:21.:22:24.

especially as women. The way things are going,

:22:25.:22:27.

we are all scared. He's saying the main

:22:28.:22:34.

issue we have is She's saying it will be peaceful

:22:35.:22:36.

as long as it is a free, But if it isn't free,

:22:37.:22:45.

fair and credible... This is obviously a group

:22:46.:22:53.

of opposition supporters. We want to live in a peaceful

:22:54.:22:56.

community, but if it happens by mistake, the Jubilee

:22:57.:23:08.

government rigs elections, we, he's saying we as Nasa supporters

:23:09.:23:11.

will have to fight If he loses, but it's a fair

:23:12.:23:14.

election, what happens then? But if it is 50-50,

:23:15.:23:21.

we will not agree on that. So if it's really close, there's

:23:22.:23:38.

more chance of being violence? This is one of the most important

:23:39.:23:40.

elections in Africa, in one What's significant now

:23:41.:23:48.

is not who wins, but how In the three years since the birth

:23:49.:23:52.

of the so-called Islamic State it is believed up to 850 men,

:23:53.:24:02.

women, boys and girls have left Britain to make what for most of us

:24:03.:24:06.

would be the unimaginable journey Many are since believed to have been

:24:07.:24:10.

killed or now find themselves trapped in Raqqa as coalition troops

:24:11.:24:17.

close in to liberate it. Remarkably, some of those

:24:18.:24:20.

confronting Isis across the Syrian battlefields

:24:21.:24:22.

are themselves from Britain. Over the years, dozens have left

:24:23.:24:26.

these shores as civilians Most join regiments

:24:27.:24:29.

from the Kurdish YPG army. One young man, Ryan Lock,

:24:30.:24:38.

was praised this week as a hero by a coroner who heard details

:24:39.:24:41.

of his death. He shot himself to avoid

:24:42.:24:45.

capture after being injured in a gunfight last December -

:24:46.:24:49.

the third Briton Others who have fought have been

:24:50.:24:51.

arrested on their return to Britain. I'm joined now by Vasilika

:24:52.:24:59.

Scurfield, the mother of Eric Scurfield, who was killed

:25:00.:25:01.

in 2015 as he fought with the YPG. I am so sorry for your loss. Why did

:25:02.:25:18.

Eric, or cost, as the family knew him, why was he so keen to get

:25:19.:25:22.

involved in a war that in many ways have nothing to do with him? He felt

:25:23.:25:25.

that since most of the people fighting in Syria for Isis, many of

:25:26.:25:32.

them were British soldiers or most were from other countries, he felt

:25:33.:25:37.

that it was his duty to redress that balance. And he felt that Isis was a

:25:38.:25:42.

threat that if not stopped, would spread. What if Isis had not been

:25:43.:25:47.

stopped by the Kurds? They might have gone on to Jordan, the Greek

:25:48.:25:52.

islands, Albania. They were unstoppable at the time and he felt

:25:53.:25:58.

he had to step up. And I think he was doing his National Service in

:25:59.:26:02.

the Greek army that he formed -- at the time he formed this ambition.

:26:03.:26:06.

Actually, he was in the Royal Marines here in the UK. Part of the

:26:07.:26:10.

reason why he went was disappointment when he was told by

:26:11.:26:14.

his CEOs that there was no chance of him going into recognise the 10,000

:26:15.:26:20.

-- rescue the 10,000 Yazidi people in the mountains. He was disgusted.

:26:21.:26:24.

And of course, the government at the time was keen to offer support to

:26:25.:26:27.

precisely the sort of militias that he ended up fighting with. They lost

:26:28.:26:31.

a Parliamentary vote, which makes it all the more remarkable that the

:26:32.:26:35.

status of fighters like your son is, well, how would you describe it? It

:26:36.:26:39.

is a sort of legal limbo. It is worse than that. They are often

:26:40.:26:45.

criminalised when they come back. So these are guys fighting with

:26:46.:26:50.

coalition forces. They are getting our support from coalition forces.

:26:51.:26:55.

They are getting treated, if they are lucky enough, in special forces

:26:56.:27:02.

field hospitals, for example. So they are working closely with

:27:03.:27:04.

coalition forces and they are being treated as terrorists when they come

:27:05.:27:08.

back. I understand that we have to question them to check which side

:27:09.:27:14.

they are fighting for and make sure they have not committed a crime. But

:27:15.:27:18.

after that, you find some of them are let go and some of them are

:27:19.:27:21.

criminalised and put on bail, where they have to present themselves

:27:22.:27:25.

three times a week for six months at a time. Their families are treated

:27:26.:27:32.

disrespectfully. I know there is a sort of covert network of families,

:27:33.:27:36.

but you have to be careful City reasons. The first is the Islamic

:27:37.:27:44.

State's vigilance on computer networks being unknowable. Secondly,

:27:45.:27:47.

you have to shield your family members' activities from the British

:27:48.:27:52.

government? It is more about privacy. For a lot of parents, it is

:27:53.:27:57.

a shock, but it is those things as well. They are soft targets for any

:27:58.:28:01.

maniac who might want to go after them. And they are at risk from

:28:02.:28:07.

being treated disrespectfully by the British government. I have no

:28:08.:28:12.

complaints about the way I was treated, and I don't see why other

:28:13.:28:15.

parents should not benefit from the same treatment. What would you like

:28:16.:28:21.

the government to do formally? I think they should be stopped at the

:28:22.:28:25.

airport when they come in. When they establish from their phones and the

:28:26.:28:28.

evidence that they were fighting from the YPG, they should as a

:28:29.:28:34.

minimum just be let go. They don't have a policy across the UK to say

:28:35.:28:37.

everybody will be treated the same way. Half of them coming and are not

:28:38.:28:41.

bothered, and half of them are criminalised. It seems to be a lucky

:28:42.:28:47.

dip. How many British people do you think are out there? It would be a

:28:48.:28:51.

complete guess. We are told there are up to 200 foreign volunteers

:28:52.:28:57.

from all countries, 12 Greeks, some Chinese, people from all over

:28:58.:29:03.

Europe, the USA, Canada, maybe up to 50 Brits? And at least one of them

:29:04.:29:09.

is a woman. Did you try to stop him going? Of course I did. The whole of

:29:10.:29:14.

the might of the British military tried to stop him going, but there

:29:15.:29:18.

was no way we could. He was determined to go. It may be that

:29:19.:29:26.

every answer is different to this question, but what do they have in

:29:27.:29:29.

common, do you think, the men and woman that have gone out there?

:29:30.:29:36.

Courage. And the strength of their convictions. Many thanks.

:29:37.:29:41.

I should say that we asked the Home Office whether all Britons

:29:42.:29:44.

who go to fight against Isis were at risk of prosecution.

:29:45.:29:47.

In a statement they said anyone who returns from the conflict

:29:48.:29:50.

in Syria or Iraq should expect to be reviewed by the police and that

:29:51.:29:53.

charges would be considered on a case by case basis.

:29:54.:29:56.

Before we go, if you're about to head off abroad and fancy

:29:57.:30:00.

some inspiration for your holiday snaps, why not head

:30:01.:30:03.

to the University of Greenwich for an exhibition of some

:30:04.:30:05.

to the Travel Photographer of the Year Awards?

:30:06.:30:09.

If you can't make it, here's a taste.

:30:10.:30:41.

# Ever since I put your picture in a frame #.

:30:42.:30:52.

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