04/08/2017 Newsnight


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04/08/2017

With James O'Brien. Can athletics ever be clean again? Does Kenya face another bloody election? Plus an interview with the mother of a man killed fighting IS.


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COMMENTATOR: He's a one-man world superpower, victory for Mo Farah!

:00:09.:00:16.

STUDIO: A victory lap tonight for Mo,

:00:17.:00:20.

but what of the sport As athletics fights

:00:21.:00:23.

to clean up its act, how confident is the head

:00:24.:00:26.

of the world anti-doping agency At the moment, without doubt,

:00:27.:00:28.

the toughest thing that I've ever Also tonight - is Kenya facing

:00:29.:00:32.

another bloody election? We, as supporters,

:00:33.:00:36.

will have to fight And this British man died

:00:37.:00:45.

battling IS alongside His mother joins us to share her

:00:46.:00:50.

thoughts on his legacy. There were familiar scenes

:00:51.:01:05.

at London's Olympic Stadium tonight as Sir Mo Farah won another

:01:06.:01:11.

10,000 metre gold in It's been just five years

:01:12.:01:14.

since Farah made his name as London, world athletics and British

:01:15.:01:19.

brilliance combined to create an Olympic Games that ranked among

:01:20.:01:22.

the most successful in history But since then athletics has been

:01:23.:01:25.

mired in doping scandals which has seen the Russian team excluded

:01:26.:01:34.

from international competitions and Mo Farah has never failed a drugs

:01:35.:01:36.

test. But his coach Alberto Salazar

:01:37.:01:49.

remains the subject of an investigation by US anti

:01:50.:01:50.

doping chiefs - though of course Some in the sport are critical of

:01:51.:01:53.

the speed at which the investigation that could clear them

:01:54.:02:10.

has been conducted. And what will become of the sport

:02:11.:02:11.

once Mo and its other big names like Usain Bolt depart

:02:12.:02:16.

after these games? COMMENTATOR: The women's 1500 metres

:02:17.:02:21.

gets underway. The London Olympics in 2012 was a triumph in semi-ways

:02:22.:02:25.

by doping is casting an ever darker shadow over it -- so many wastrels

:02:26.:02:35.

of this race has been dubbed the dirtiest traceable time, the winner

:02:36.:02:39.

was previously banned for two years from 2004 on two 2006, she has been

:02:40.:02:44.

stripped of the gold medal and has been serving a ban and the silver

:02:45.:02:53.

medallist has also been found guilty of irregularities in her biological

:02:54.:02:59.

passport. The fifth placed runner was later banned for meldonium use

:03:00.:03:04.

but had her suspension overturned. In seventh place, an athlete banned

:03:05.:03:10.

for biological passport abnormalities and in ninth place an

:03:11.:03:14.

athlete who will be banned for two years for the attended use of a

:03:15.:03:19.

prohibited substance or method. The Mail on Sunday calculated that of

:03:20.:03:24.

650 athletes, at track and field finals at London 2012, 87 have had

:03:25.:03:30.

doping violations. It has increased now to 88, a further 188 have doping

:03:31.:03:38.

associations, either their coach or agent or doctor is associated or

:03:39.:03:45.

they have missed or failed a test. The World Championships that started

:03:46.:03:47.

today was supposed to draw a line under the saga, medals are being

:03:48.:03:52.

rewarded and Russia is still not here because of its doping

:03:53.:03:56.

violations. The Russian athletes who are here compete as independents. We

:03:57.:04:06.

can use some Russian close with the Russian flag colours, they are

:04:07.:04:15.

strict rules, so we can use any kind of science on your body and in your

:04:16.:04:20.

hair, with a Russian flag, something even close to this will stop so how

:04:21.:04:27.

confident should we be? It is possible to have a sport where the

:04:28.:04:31.

vast majority of people you are watching our clean and I think that

:04:32.:04:34.

is the case, it is harder for an athlete to cheat and you have got to

:04:35.:04:39.

take the federations usually, to ban a whole country in Russia is a

:04:40.:04:45.

serious step to take. People will be looking at the 2017 World

:04:46.:04:48.

Championships in London with scepticism which is what athletics

:04:49.:04:52.

deserves given its track record, and there will be dozens of convicted

:04:53.:04:57.

dopers taking part in the championships, that's a matter of

:04:58.:05:02.

public record, people who have taken drugs and come back from bands.

:05:03.:05:08.

Public trust matters. All the athletes you watch running for Great

:05:09.:05:12.

Britain have been subsidised by the National Lottery which has changed

:05:13.:05:17.

the face of athletics. If the public lose faith in athletics, it will be

:05:18.:05:22.

harder to justify lottery spending, and they have got to win medals, as

:05:23.:05:25.

well, and that will get harder without the likes of Mo Farah and

:05:26.:05:30.

Jessica Ennis-Hill and Rutherford not jumping. Athletics will face a

:05:31.:05:39.

challenge as Usain Bolt believes the sport, a paragon of clean living.

:05:40.:05:49.

The fastest 30 times in that event have been run entirely by dopers

:05:50.:05:54.

apart from The Times clock by Usain Bolt. The person who has

:05:55.:06:01.

single-handedly carried the sport, almost, he has transcended the

:06:02.:06:03.

sport, a global superstar but he won't be there after this year. That

:06:04.:06:10.

will be a very big void to fill. The passing of a great may show up the

:06:11.:06:15.

depth of the problems in track and field. Chris Cook, reporting.

:06:16.:06:23.

Sir Craig Reedie is a few months into his second term

:06:24.:06:26.

as President of WADA, the world anti-doping agency,

:06:27.:06:30.

and as such the man ultimately responsible for cleaning

:06:31.:06:32.

Earlier this evening I button-holed him outside his hotel

:06:33.:06:36.

Luckily, we also managed to borrow a couple of chairs

:06:37.:06:40.

I began by asking him how tarnished athletics is now compare to his

:06:41.:06:49.

career as a badminton player. Athletics certainly suffered

:06:50.:06:52.

from the revelations in 2015, when the biggest country

:06:53.:06:56.

in the world was clearly involved in cheating, and secondly

:06:57.:07:02.

when the International Federation I think they are making progress

:07:03.:07:05.

and I encourage them to do that, and we work closely with them

:07:06.:07:16.

as they do that. We have one of our finest athletes,

:07:17.:07:18.

Mo Farah, running in London under His coach, Alberto

:07:19.:07:22.

Salazar, won't be here. There are reports, as you know,

:07:23.:07:29.

of suppression of investigations. So it isn't just the Russians that

:07:30.:07:32.

leave a slightly sour taste. Well, you can remember

:07:33.:07:35.

after the Rio games, the discord and trouble caused

:07:36.:07:39.

by an organisation called the Fancy Bears, who reacted

:07:40.:07:43.

to what they saw as treatment They were, who immediately of course

:07:44.:07:45.

found people who had therapeutic use exemptions who happened to come

:07:46.:07:55.

from Western medal-winning countries Personally, I'm disappointed

:07:56.:08:00.

in that it has taken too long This has been going on for

:08:01.:08:08.

about three years now. I think the United States

:08:09.:08:15.

Anti-Doping Agency would be well served if they reached a decision

:08:16.:08:17.

sooner rather than later. Can the people lining up

:08:18.:08:20.

on the starting line at these games be more confident

:08:21.:08:27.

than they were in Rio, more confident than they were in London,

:08:28.:08:29.

the clean athletes, can they be confident that they're not lining up

:08:30.:08:32.

against doped athletes? Athletics here have pre-games tested

:08:33.:08:35.

any number of athletes. There have been something

:08:36.:08:38.

like 5,000 different urine There will be another 600

:08:39.:08:40.

done in competition. So athletes know that,

:08:41.:08:47.

and it would be foolish for any In addition, they will keep samples

:08:48.:08:50.

from London for a period So if you're so smart that

:08:51.:08:55.

you don't get caught now, the chances are that you will be

:08:56.:09:00.

caught at some date in the future. So I assure you that

:09:01.:09:03.

everything is being done, That said, I can't sit here and be

:09:04.:09:06.

complacent in any way. This is an argument that has to go

:09:07.:09:16.

on on a day-to-day basis. And it would also help if we had

:09:17.:09:19.

a bit more money to do it. For me, as a fan of athletics,

:09:20.:09:27.

it's the dope users who pass the tests that are the problem,

:09:28.:09:30.

not the ones who fail the tests, because the technology

:09:31.:09:34.

and the effort, the laboratories we read about, the supplements,

:09:35.:09:38.

the mysterious substances crossing borders in Jiffy bags,

:09:39.:09:41.

the effort that is put into not failing the dope tests

:09:42.:09:45.

is where the attention surely needs People need to understand

:09:46.:09:48.

that this is an ongoing and changing situation,

:09:49.:09:52.

every minute of every day. We have our own investigations

:09:53.:09:57.

department and our own But to run both of these,

:09:58.:09:59.

you need to have large And how you collect that information

:10:00.:10:04.

is time-consuming and expensive, and when you analyse it,

:10:05.:10:14.

you act properly on it. When I say act properly,

:10:15.:10:18.

we are a sports organisation. Sometimes it would help if we had

:10:19.:10:20.

law enforcement more But I refuse to sit here and say

:10:21.:10:24.

either that we have no problem, or even worse, from my point

:10:25.:10:30.

of view, "I'm sorry, I'm so depressed that I'm

:10:31.:10:34.

not prepared to carry It's like that Greek fella pushing

:10:35.:10:36.

the rock up the hill and when he got to the top,

:10:37.:10:42.

it started rolling back down again. It is without doubt the toughest

:10:43.:10:46.

thing I have tried to do in sport. Success looks like a much,

:10:47.:10:50.

much reduced number of athletes being caught cheating

:10:51.:10:58.

by testing positive. We have to be smart

:10:59.:11:03.

in our own research, in our own understanding,

:11:04.:11:07.

that we test for the correct substance in the correct athlete

:11:08.:11:09.

in the correct event, I have a sense that the police,

:11:10.:11:12.

as in many areas of life, many areas of wrongdoing,

:11:13.:11:18.

the police, which is you, are playing catch up

:11:19.:11:21.

with the criminal. Well, I would like to think

:11:22.:11:23.

we are closer to them than you might think,

:11:24.:11:25.

James. David Walsh is chief sports writer

:11:26.:11:29.

for the Sunday Times and was responsible for exposing

:11:30.:11:33.

doping by the cyclist He has also written

:11:34.:11:35.

extensively about athletics It is unfortunate that we have to

:11:36.:11:49.

discuss Mo Farah's swansong in the context of the continuing

:11:50.:11:53.

investigation, how much does this pollute his legacy potentially? It

:11:54.:11:59.

doesn't enhance his legacy, that he has worked with Alberto Salazar, a

:12:00.:12:05.

coach who has a lot of questions to answer at the very least. Both

:12:06.:12:09.

adamant there has been no wrongdoing. Yes, years, but the

:12:10.:12:14.

United States anti-doping agency are still investigating Alberto Salazar

:12:15.:12:19.

and we have testimony from any athletes who worked with him who

:12:20.:12:22.

were unhappy about his methods. That isn't to say that Mo Farah dopes but

:12:23.:12:28.

it would be much better for his credibility if he had no connection

:12:29.:12:33.

with Alberto Salazar. You heard Craig Reedie being interviewed, he

:12:34.:12:39.

talks a good game, do you think that Wada is fit for purpose? It might be

:12:40.:12:46.

if it had sufficient funding. Craig Reedie is in his second term and I

:12:47.:12:52.

have a sense of a man who is only now getting a grip on the problem

:12:53.:12:59.

that exists. He has had a very unimpressive first term. When this

:13:00.:13:04.

Russian controversy broke, his initial reaction was to hope that it

:13:05.:13:10.

would pass without becoming a major controversy. Of course it was going

:13:11.:13:15.

to become a major controversy because we had outstanding

:13:16.:13:24.

whistle-blowers in Russia. Stepanov told us what was going on in Russia,

:13:25.:13:29.

and for the athletes who were competing... Who are competing in

:13:30.:13:33.

this World Championship in London now, it is significant that there

:13:34.:13:36.

are not many Russians here, the Russian team is not there, and that

:13:37.:13:41.

is to athletics credit that they have basically kicked out Russia for

:13:42.:13:46.

the Rio games and they are still out. Chris Cook's film earlier, that

:13:47.:13:54.

was astonishing, to see the women's race in which almost everyone was

:13:55.:13:58.

found to have been in some sort of contravention of the rules. Are you

:13:59.:14:02.

confident that webby happening in London in the next few days? --

:14:03.:14:10.

won't be happening. Yes, I am. The IAAF was corrupt at that time and

:14:11.:14:13.

the people were aiding and abetting doping and some of them were

:14:14.:14:18.

profiting from doping so we have the most appalling situation. Many

:14:19.:14:23.

British people will have great memories of London 2012 but much of

:14:24.:14:29.

what we watched was fraudulent and the legacy has been besmirched by

:14:30.:14:35.

that. I don't think the IAAF is corrupt today in the way it was then

:14:36.:14:39.

and I think there have been great improvements and the fact they have

:14:40.:14:42.

voted to sanction Russia in the way they have. That is to their credit.

:14:43.:14:48.

Will there be any dopers involved in these games? Of course. I don't

:14:49.:14:53.

think you can watch any major event in athletics and in some other

:14:54.:14:58.

sports and not have some dopers but there will be less. One thing we

:14:59.:15:06.

should all remember, the greatest controversy we have seen in terms of

:15:07.:15:12.

doping was enacted at the Winter Olympics where the Russian state

:15:13.:15:15.

conspired to cheat their way to gold medals, what they did was substitute

:15:16.:15:20.

you're in because that was the only where they could beat the tests for

:15:21.:15:25.

the not many countries could do that because that involve huge planning

:15:26.:15:28.

and the involvement of the state police and the former KGB. Many of

:15:29.:15:33.

those agents were involved, and that isn't going to happen in many other

:15:34.:15:38.

places, but the reason Russia did that is because the anti-doping

:15:39.:15:43.

tests do work anti-circumvention MP had to actually substitute -- they

:15:44.:15:50.

actually had to substitute. They could be far more effective than

:15:51.:15:54.

they are and the doping problem would be either would say

:15:55.:15:57.

significantly less if we put enough money into it. Very briefly, with

:15:58.:16:02.

big stars heading off into the sunset like Hussein Barr, is the

:16:03.:16:06.

sport heading into the doldrums? -- Usain Bolt. Athletics is losing its

:16:07.:16:12.

audience, no doubt, and losing Mo Farah and especially Usain Bolt

:16:13.:16:20.

won't help, but sport survives. Golf is used to worry about what would

:16:21.:16:23.

happen when Tiger Woods went into decline, that happened, and golf is

:16:24.:16:26.

still there. Athletics will live long after Mo Farah and Usain Bolt.

:16:27.:16:31.

Thanks for joining us. The incumbent, President Uhuru

:16:32.:16:35.

Kenyatta is up against his old rival Raila Odinga, who's trying

:16:36.:16:40.

for what will be his fourth - and, at 72, possibly his last -

:16:41.:16:43.

attempt to become president. The polls suggest it's close,

:16:44.:16:46.

and given Kenya's recent history, how the election is run,

:16:47.:16:48.

who wins and how the loser takes it, will decide whether the country

:16:49.:16:51.

descends into violence as it did a decade ago, or becomes a champion

:16:52.:16:54.

of African democracy. Tensions are running high -

:16:55.:16:58.

not helped by the brutal abduction, torture and murder this week

:16:59.:17:01.

of the man in charge This from the BBC's

:17:02.:17:03.

Africa Correspondent It's not just politicians who bring

:17:04.:17:09.

rallies to the slums of Nairobi. If anyone gets upset

:17:10.:17:21.

about the election result, the violence will break out here,

:17:22.:17:26.

and so they're urging Rachel is a feminist

:17:27.:17:28.

and an activist in Mathare, one of the biggest

:17:29.:17:37.

slums in the capital. The march is straddling two wards

:17:38.:17:41.

with different politics. If Kenyans are told

:17:42.:17:46.

the election was free and fair, Even in the slums, as much

:17:47.:17:48.

as they are using words to criminalise us, telling us it's

:17:49.:17:55.

a hotspot, if they know the election is free

:17:56.:17:57.

and fair, they cannot disturb. Rallies have been romping

:17:58.:18:05.

across the country for weeks. This is opposition orange,

:18:06.:18:07.

and green, and blue and white. The National Super Alliance,

:18:08.:18:10.

they're called, Nasa, five opposition parties

:18:11.:18:12.

on one ticket. Raila Odinga is their

:18:13.:18:17.

presidential candidate, Since then, the Odingas have

:18:18.:18:20.

always been in opposition. It's his fourth attempt to get

:18:21.:18:31.

the top job, and at 72, probably his last, and that makes

:18:32.:18:34.

the stakes even higher. "the driver is drunk

:18:35.:18:36.

and the conductor is a thief". Drivers and conductors

:18:37.:18:42.

aside, their alliance Uhuru Kenyatta, son

:18:43.:18:51.

of Kenya's first president. The big political dynasties

:18:52.:18:58.

live on more than 50 The success of this

:18:59.:19:01.

whole ballot depends The Independent Electoral

:19:02.:19:06.

and Boundaries Commission, or IEBC, In a country where vote-rigging has

:19:07.:19:10.

been suspected in the past and is expected in the future,

:19:11.:19:17.

their computerised voting system is the key to free

:19:18.:19:21.

and fair elections. If it works, fixing the result

:19:22.:19:24.

will be an awful lot harder The public demonstration went well,

:19:25.:19:27.

but if the computer system fails, And given what has

:19:28.:19:33.

happened in the past week, Chris Msando was the acting head

:19:34.:19:38.

of IT at the Electoral Commission, "The system's safe with me",

:19:39.:19:45.

he said, but then he disappeared. This time last week,

:19:46.:19:52.

he left the IEBC building and went He was meeting a 21-year-old

:19:53.:19:54.

graduate student known as Carol. What happened over the next few

:19:55.:20:03.

hours is a lot less certain. His Land Rover was seen

:20:04.:20:07.

driving across Nairobi. At one point, four people

:20:08.:20:10.

may have been inside, Elsewhere, he was on the phone

:20:11.:20:15.

looking agitated. First, his car was recovered

:20:16.:20:20.

on one side of town. Then on the other side of the city,

:20:21.:20:27.

two bodies were discovered. Both he and the young

:20:28.:20:30.

graduate, Carol Ngumbu, People jumped to their own

:20:31.:20:35.

conclusions, and it's put A senior Kenyan lawyer wants

:20:36.:20:41.

a commission of inquiry for this and other cases

:20:42.:20:53.

of what he calls Apart from being a chilling effect

:20:54.:20:55.

on the general populace and even other employees of the electoral

:20:56.:20:59.

body, it again just highlights how we have, for too long,

:21:00.:21:04.

left extrajudicial killings Corruption is a huge

:21:05.:21:10.

part of the problem. This footage was filmed

:21:11.:21:16.

by citizen journalists. It's common, and just

:21:17.:21:19.

the tip of the iceberg. The police officer stops,

:21:20.:21:24.

opens the door and grabs something. John-Allan Namu is an investigative

:21:25.:21:29.

journalist for Africa Corruption is endemic

:21:30.:21:31.

in this country. It's taken over very many parts

:21:32.:21:38.

of government operations. A third of our resources

:21:39.:21:40.

are believed to be lost It's driven by a lot

:21:41.:21:42.

of private-sector impunity, Nothing ever gets resolved.

:21:43.:21:49.

No one ever goes to jail. Ten years ago, terrible

:21:50.:21:54.

post-election ethnic violence killed more than 1,200 people amid claims

:21:55.:22:01.

that it was rigged, International Criminal Court charges

:22:02.:22:04.

against the deputy president and President Kenyatta collapsed

:22:05.:22:12.

when witnesses died mysteriously. At the last election,

:22:13.:22:18.

the computer system failed. Rachel's friends in Mathare

:22:19.:22:20.

are worried it will happen again. We are a bit scared,

:22:21.:22:24.

especially as women. The way things are going,

:22:25.:22:27.

we are all scared. He's saying the main

:22:28.:22:34.

issue we have is She's saying it will be peaceful

:22:35.:22:36.

as long as it is a free, But if it isn't free,

:22:37.:22:45.

fair and credible... This is obviously a group

:22:46.:22:53.

of opposition supporters. We want to live in a peaceful

:22:54.:22:56.

community, but if it happens by mistake, the Jubilee

:22:57.:23:08.

government rigs elections, we, he's saying we as Nasa supporters

:23:09.:23:11.

will have to fight If he loses, but it's a fair

:23:12.:23:14.

election, what happens then? But if it is 50-50,

:23:15.:23:21.

we will not agree on that. So if it's really close, there's

:23:22.:23:38.

more chance of being violence? This is one of the most important

:23:39.:23:40.

elections in Africa, in one What's significant now

:23:41.:23:48.

is not who wins, but how In the three years since the birth

:23:49.:23:52.

of the so-called Islamic State it is believed up to 850 men,

:23:53.:24:02.

women, boys and girls have left Britain to make what for most of us

:24:03.:24:06.

would be the unimaginable journey Many are since believed to have been

:24:07.:24:10.

killed or now find themselves trapped in Raqqa as coalition troops

:24:11.:24:17.

close in to liberate it. Remarkably, some of those

:24:18.:24:20.

confronting Isis across the Syrian battlefields

:24:21.:24:22.

are themselves from Britain. Over the years, dozens have left

:24:23.:24:26.

these shores as civilians Most join regiments

:24:27.:24:29.

from the Kurdish YPG army. One young man, Ryan Lock,

:24:30.:24:38.

was praised this week as a hero by a coroner who heard details

:24:39.:24:41.

of his death. He shot himself to avoid

:24:42.:24:45.

capture after being injured in a gunfight last December -

:24:46.:24:49.

the third Briton Others who have fought have been

:24:50.:24:51.

arrested on their return to Britain. I'm joined now by Vasilika

:24:52.:24:59.

Scurfield, the mother of Eric Scurfield, who was killed

:25:00.:25:01.

in 2015 as he fought with the YPG. I am so sorry for your loss. Why did

:25:02.:25:18.

Eric, or cost, as the family knew him, why was he so keen to get

:25:19.:25:22.

involved in a war that in many ways have nothing to do with him? He felt

:25:23.:25:25.

that since most of the people fighting in Syria for Isis, many of

:25:26.:25:32.

them were British soldiers or most were from other countries, he felt

:25:33.:25:37.

that it was his duty to redress that balance. And he felt that Isis was a

:25:38.:25:42.

threat that if not stopped, would spread. What if Isis had not been

:25:43.:25:47.

stopped by the Kurds? They might have gone on to Jordan, the Greek

:25:48.:25:52.

islands, Albania. They were unstoppable at the time and he felt

:25:53.:25:58.

he had to step up. And I think he was doing his National Service in

:25:59.:26:02.

the Greek army that he formed -- at the time he formed this ambition.

:26:03.:26:06.

Actually, he was in the Royal Marines here in the UK. Part of the

:26:07.:26:10.

reason why he went was disappointment when he was told by

:26:11.:26:14.

his CEOs that there was no chance of him going into recognise the 10,000

:26:15.:26:20.

-- rescue the 10,000 Yazidi people in the mountains. He was disgusted.

:26:21.:26:24.

And of course, the government at the time was keen to offer support to

:26:25.:26:27.

precisely the sort of militias that he ended up fighting with. They lost

:26:28.:26:31.

a Parliamentary vote, which makes it all the more remarkable that the

:26:32.:26:35.

status of fighters like your son is, well, how would you describe it? It

:26:36.:26:39.

is a sort of legal limbo. It is worse than that. They are often

:26:40.:26:45.

criminalised when they come back. So these are guys fighting with

:26:46.:26:50.

coalition forces. They are getting our support from coalition forces.

:26:51.:26:55.

They are getting treated, if they are lucky enough, in special forces

:26:56.:27:02.

field hospitals, for example. So they are working closely with

:27:03.:27:04.

coalition forces and they are being treated as terrorists when they come

:27:05.:27:08.

back. I understand that we have to question them to check which side

:27:09.:27:14.

they are fighting for and make sure they have not committed a crime. But

:27:15.:27:18.

after that, you find some of them are let go and some of them are

:27:19.:27:21.

criminalised and put on bail, where they have to present themselves

:27:22.:27:25.

three times a week for six months at a time. Their families are treated

:27:26.:27:32.

disrespectfully. I know there is a sort of covert network of families,

:27:33.:27:36.

but you have to be careful City reasons. The first is the Islamic

:27:37.:27:44.

State's vigilance on computer networks being unknowable. Secondly,

:27:45.:27:47.

you have to shield your family members' activities from the British

:27:48.:27:52.

government? It is more about privacy. For a lot of parents, it is

:27:53.:27:57.

a shock, but it is those things as well. They are soft targets for any

:27:58.:28:01.

maniac who might want to go after them. And they are at risk from

:28:02.:28:07.

being treated disrespectfully by the British government. I have no

:28:08.:28:12.

complaints about the way I was treated, and I don't see why other

:28:13.:28:15.

parents should not benefit from the same treatment. What would you like

:28:16.:28:21.

the government to do formally? I think they should be stopped at the

:28:22.:28:25.

airport when they come in. When they establish from their phones and the

:28:26.:28:28.

evidence that they were fighting from the YPG, they should as a

:28:29.:28:34.

minimum just be let go. They don't have a policy across the UK to say

:28:35.:28:37.

everybody will be treated the same way. Half of them coming and are not

:28:38.:28:41.

bothered, and half of them are criminalised. It seems to be a lucky

:28:42.:28:47.

dip. How many British people do you think are out there? It would be a

:28:48.:28:51.

complete guess. We are told there are up to 200 foreign volunteers

:28:52.:28:57.

from all countries, 12 Greeks, some Chinese, people from all over

:28:58.:29:03.

Europe, the USA, Canada, maybe up to 50 Brits? And at least one of them

:29:04.:29:09.

is a woman. Did you try to stop him going? Of course I did. The whole of

:29:10.:29:14.

the might of the British military tried to stop him going, but there

:29:15.:29:18.

was no way we could. He was determined to go. It may be that

:29:19.:29:26.

every answer is different to this question, but what do they have in

:29:27.:29:29.

common, do you think, the men and woman that have gone out there?

:29:30.:29:36.

Courage. And the strength of their convictions. Many thanks.

:29:37.:29:41.

I should say that we asked the Home Office whether all Britons

:29:42.:29:44.

who go to fight against Isis were at risk of prosecution.

:29:45.:29:47.

In a statement they said anyone who returns from the conflict

:29:48.:29:50.

in Syria or Iraq should expect to be reviewed by the police and that

:29:51.:29:53.

charges would be considered on a case by case basis.

:29:54.:29:56.

Before we go, if you're about to head off abroad and fancy

:29:57.:30:00.

some inspiration for your holiday snaps, why not head

:30:01.:30:03.

to the University of Greenwich for an exhibition of some

:30:04.:30:05.

to the Travel Photographer of the Year Awards?

:30:06.:30:09.

If you can't make it, here's a taste.

:30:10.:30:41.

# Ever since I put your picture in a frame #.

:30:42.:30:52.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines. With James O'Brien.

Can athletics ever be clean again? Does Kenya face another bloody election? Plus an interview with the mother of a man killed fighting IS.