07/08/2017 Newsnight


07/08/2017

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Corbyn's Venezuela conundrum - he doesn't want to desert his

:00:00.:00:08.

old friends running the country, but he can't avoid acknowledging

:00:09.:00:11.

In the end, he steered a carefully nuanced in-between line,

:00:12.:00:18.

but the Venezuelan opposition tell us he's got it wrong.

:00:19.:00:24.

Maybe the mothers and fathers of those that have been killed would be

:00:25.:00:32.

willing to speak to Jeremy Corbyn to explain and to tell him what the

:00:33.:00:34.

real situation has been. Justin Gatlin was booed

:00:35.:00:38.

for his success at the World His agent explains why

:00:39.:00:40.

the crowd had got it wrong. 80% of Google software

:00:41.:00:46.

engineers are male. Or a sign that women

:00:47.:00:49.

aren't into programming? There's an argument

:00:50.:00:53.

at Google about it. And we'll ask if it's

:00:54.:00:56.

politically incorrect to even Stacey Dooley meets

:00:57.:01:00.

some its supporters. How helpful do you think it is to

:01:01.:01:14.

put these posters on the bonfire? Because they are our enemies. We

:01:15.:01:17.

belong to Britain. We are British. We are British subjects. I hold a

:01:18.:01:21.

British passport and I'm proud to say I'm British.

:01:22.:01:27.

We don't know what the Venezuelans think of Jeremy Corbyn,

:01:28.:01:31.

but we do now know what Mr Corbyn thinks about Venezuela.

:01:32.:01:34.

He's back from a holiday in Croatia and was under immediate pressure

:01:35.:01:38.

to condemn the socialist government in Venezuela, having given it warm

:01:39.:01:40.

It's not good to be too supportive of a government arresting political

:01:41.:01:48.

opponents in the dead of night, but Mr Corbyn has a good deal

:01:49.:01:52.

of political capital invested in Nicolas Maduro's Venezuela.

:01:53.:01:55.

So how the big question today, was how he would

:01:56.:01:59.

Many of his colleagues are clear, Maduro is to be condemned.

:02:00.:02:03.

What I condemn is the violence that's been done by any side,

:02:04.:02:09.

Violence is not going to solve the issue.

:02:10.:02:13.

The issues of Venezuela are partly structural because not enough has

:02:14.:02:16.

been done to diversify the economy away from oil.

:02:17.:02:19.

That has to be a priority for the future.

:02:20.:02:22.

We also have to recognise there have been effective and serious attempts

:02:23.:02:26.

to reduce poverty in Venezuela and improving literacy

:02:27.:02:29.

and improving the lives of many of the poorest people.

:02:30.:02:35.

Earlier this evening, I spoke to Juan Andres Mejia, founding

:02:36.:02:38.

member and National Director of one of the main Venezuelan opposition

:02:39.:02:42.

I asked whether it is right that both sides are responsible

:02:43.:02:48.

I don't think it's fair. What has happened in the past four months in

:02:49.:03:01.

our country is that you have had the majority of Venezuelans protesting,

:03:02.:03:04.

demanding change, demanding free and fair elections and they have been

:03:05.:03:09.

received by the National Guard and the police with tear gas, with

:03:10.:03:15.

rubber bullets and sometimes too with regular bullets with shot guns.

:03:16.:03:18.

More than 120 people have been killed. According to the

:03:19.:03:22.

Attorney-General, this is the person that was not a supporter of the

:03:23.:03:26.

opposition until recently, she has said that more than 90% of those

:03:27.:03:31.

that have been killed are opposition protesters. Especially young people,

:03:32.:03:39.

between the ages of 20 and 30. There has been violence in Venezuela. We

:03:40.:03:42.

condemn all violence. Its not fair to say it has been on both sides.

:03:43.:03:49.

There is one side that has insisted in protesting peacefully and every

:03:50.:03:53.

time that the police or National Guard appears, it ends with people

:03:54.:03:57.

being killed. Just tell us about the opposition and who they are. The

:03:58.:04:04.

opposition has evolved since it began in Venezuela. Today you have

:04:05.:04:16.

parties from all ideologies. You have leftist parties, such as Accion

:04:17.:04:25.

Democrata. Such as Popular Will, my own party. And you have centre-right

:04:26.:04:30.

parties. The most important fact is that the opposition now has younger

:04:31.:04:37.

leaders, younger members of Congress who want change for all Venezuelans

:04:38.:04:45.

and who believe that this change has to happen within democracy. It is

:04:46.:04:52.

more Democrats and those who wish to change the rules by which we have

:04:53.:04:56.

governed this country for the past 50 years. The socialist experiment

:04:57.:05:02.

in Venezuela has failed and it has failed very badly. The economic and

:05:03.:05:07.

political crisis we have is tremendous. There has never been

:05:08.:05:12.

something like. A lot of people are not eating three times a day. Many

:05:13.:05:23.

people are eating from the garbage. Scarcity of basic goods is clear.

:05:24.:05:29.

For most people who are willing to elect a different president, the

:05:30.:05:33.

struggle nowadays is not between two halves, two parts of the country. It

:05:34.:05:36.

is between the majority of the people who want change and those who

:05:37.:05:40.

refuse to allow it. You're a party of the left, we should be clear.

:05:41.:05:44.

Yeah. Are you saying socialism doesn't work and you've seen that in

:05:45.:05:49.

Venezuela. Excuse me when I speak about socialism in such an easy way,

:05:50.:05:55.

because when we say socialism in Venezuela we mean more Communist

:05:56.:05:59.

than anything else. In Venezuela this is not a socialist experiment,

:06:00.:06:07.

to be fair. It's more of a leftist, autocratic experiment. There's no

:06:08.:06:12.

freedom of expression. There is no freedom of speech. You have hundreds

:06:13.:06:17.

of political prisoners in our country. So this is not a very

:06:18.:06:24.

socialist experiment. This is a country where those in power have

:06:25.:06:30.

tremendous benefits. They move around the city of Caracas with

:06:31.:06:36.

bodyguards, in bullet-proof cars. They have become an elite

:06:37.:06:40.

themselves, while the rest of the country has been suffering. This is

:06:41.:06:46.

not a socialist government. This is an elite, call themselves

:06:47.:06:49.

socialists, but their interest is staying in power forever. Your party

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Popular Will, is a member of the socialist international, which

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actually means it is affiliated through that to the Labour Party in

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the United Kingdom. I mean, how important is it that foreign left of

:07:05.:07:09.

centre parties support your side of this argument rather than the Maduro

:07:10.:07:14.

side? It is very important because the government has a strong

:07:15.:07:23.

propaganda team. It is not fair, we don't feel supported when

:07:24.:07:27.

governments around the world present the situation here as if it was a

:07:28.:07:32.

conflict between left and right-wing parties. This is a conflict between

:07:33.:07:37.

democracy and dictatorship. This is a conflict between respecting human

:07:38.:07:39.

rights and violating human rights. This is a conflict between the

:07:40.:07:42.

majority of the people who want change and who want to bring that

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change with elections and between a minority who is willing to do

:07:50.:07:52.

anything to stay in power. What do you think when you see Jeremy Corbyn

:07:53.:07:57.

essentially trying to steer a rather fine line between the two sides in

:07:58.:08:00.

this? What I would say to Jeremy Corbyn is that he really has to know

:08:01.:08:05.

what's going on in our country to be able to make a statement. Violence

:08:06.:08:11.

has not been done by both sides. Violence has been promoted by the

:08:12.:08:16.

government. They have armed paramilitary groups that have taken

:08:17.:08:21.

the lives of hundreds of people in Venezuela. Maybe the mothers and

:08:22.:08:26.

fathers of those that have been killed would be willing to speak to

:08:27.:08:31.

Jeremy Corbyn to explain and to tell him what the real situation has

:08:32.:08:39.

been. People such as a 17-year-old teenager, who went out to the

:08:40.:08:42.

streets to protest because he was convinced that he should have a

:08:43.:08:49.

different future. Other people such as a man killed by a gunshot, shot

:08:50.:08:54.

by a member of the National Guard and all he was trying to do was

:08:55.:08:59.

raising his voice for a different country for democracy. I'm pretty

:09:00.:09:04.

sure the family of these people that have been killed are willing to let

:09:05.:09:09.

Jeremy Corbyn know what the real situation has been and how they have

:09:10.:09:12.

been killed during the past four months. Thank you so much. Thanks

:09:13.:09:17.

for your time tonight. No-one says it's easy

:09:18.:09:19.

to make spending decisions in the NHS right now,

:09:20.:09:21.

but among the unpleasant choices being made in parts of the country,

:09:22.:09:24.

are cuts in IVF treatments. The NHS standard - set by NICE,

:09:25.:09:27.

the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence -

:09:28.:09:30.

is that women under 40, unable to conceive for two years,

:09:31.:09:33.

should be offered three cycles But, the group Fertility Network UK

:09:34.:09:36.

has found that almost half the areas in England have decided to breech

:09:37.:09:46.

that standard - cutting the three cycles to two or one

:09:47.:09:48.

or none, in some cases. With no NHS IVF, the only option

:09:49.:09:52.

is then to go private. Elaine Dunkley has been to Bristol,

:09:53.:10:00.

where they are consulting on plans This baby is Ellie's dream come

:10:01.:10:15.

true. At 39 and after years of trying to conceive, Ellie's first

:10:16.:10:19.

round of IVF was successful. Ellie was forced to go private and says

:10:20.:10:23.

the system is unfair for those who can't afford to pay. We decided to

:10:24.:10:27.

go private because I was refused by the NHS because I had an early

:10:28.:10:31.

miscarriage. They told me I was subfertile rather than infertile.

:10:32.:10:34.

They wouldn't fund it. Not being able to have a baby was horrendous.

:10:35.:10:39.

I know not all people this is what they want. For me, it was my world.

:10:40.:10:42.

It was everything I wanted. Then to be turned down by the NHS and told

:10:43.:10:47.

they weren't going to help me was absolutely devastating. It's a lot

:10:48.:10:50.

of money. For a lot of people that money isn't available. I was really

:10:51.:10:54.

fortunate that my family was able to help me. But I know not everybody is

:10:55.:10:58.

in that situation. If we have to go for a second round of IVF, we will

:10:59.:11:02.

have to remortgage the house or get a loan. Under guidance by NICE,

:11:03.:11:10.

those aged under 40 with fertility problems should be offered up to

:11:11.:11:14.

three cycles of IVF. Those aged between 40 and 42 should be offered

:11:15.:11:18.

one, if they meet a certain criteria. But this doesn't always

:11:19.:11:23.

happen. A cycle of IVF can cost in excess of ?3,000. Decisions on who

:11:24.:11:28.

is eligible are taken by local clinical commissioning groups. It's

:11:29.:11:31.

becoming a postcode lottery because of the way we commission in the UK.

:11:32.:11:35.

It doesn't have to be in that way, because we have NHS England for

:11:36.:11:39.

example that has a national programme for Jen itics associated

:11:40.:11:43.

with IVF. The commissioning groups are able to not only decide whether

:11:44.:11:50.

they will fund IVF but to provide restrictive elability criteria if

:11:51.:11:54.

they do fund it. Very few people get access to IVF that actually require

:11:55.:11:58.

it. Some describe it as unethical, unfair and discriminatory, but

:11:59.:12:02.

ultimately it comes down to cost and whether the NHS should be funding

:12:03.:12:05.

the desire to become a parent when money is needed in so many other

:12:06.:12:10.

areas. Five areas have now stopped offering IVF. Since the beginning of

:12:11.:12:14.

this year, the number of cycles women are entitled to has been

:12:15.:12:18.

reduced by 12 clinical commissioning groups. And in September, these

:12:19.:12:22.

areas will decide on whether IVF should be restricted to women who

:12:23.:12:27.

are 30 to 35, those most likely to conceive with treatment. One of

:12:28.:12:34.

those areas is in Bristol, the place where the world's first test tube

:12:35.:12:41.

baby was born. Mr Acardi has helped thousands conceive and doesn't

:12:42.:12:43.

believe age should be the only factor. Success rates are very

:12:44.:12:49.

reasonable until the age of 42. So yes, one can take an individual

:12:50.:12:53.

approach and clinics do that all the time. Remember, fertility,

:12:54.:12:59.

infertility itself is classified as a disease. That means there are some

:13:00.:13:03.

couples and some people where without help there is absolutely no

:13:04.:13:08.

way they will be able to achieve a pregnancy. Therefore, they need

:13:09.:13:15.

medical help. Every day the NHS is forced to make difficult decisions

:13:16.:13:20.

over what it can and can't afford. This is little consolation to those

:13:21.:13:24.

who feel time and funding is against them.

:13:25.:13:29.

It's really unfair that people are treated differently across the

:13:30.:13:32.

country, you've got the postcode lottery. I can understand there's

:13:33.:13:36.

funding issues and they need to find ways to restrict it, I think the way

:13:37.:13:37.

they're doing it is really unfair. Well, now we are joined

:13:38.:13:43.

by Professor Robert Winston, a world expert in fertility and one

:13:44.:13:46.

of the early pioneers of IVF, also the freelance journalist

:13:47.:13:49.

Sirena Bergman, who has written in the Independent today that IVF

:13:50.:13:51.

is costly and ineffective and its time to stop offering it

:13:52.:13:54.

on the NHS. You would argue that there shouldn't

:13:55.:14:07.

be a postcode lottery and the NHS should pay. Thank you for putting my

:14:08.:14:11.

argument for me. That's helpful. Explain why. I agree with that. If

:14:12.:14:15.

we have a National Health Service it has to be national. At the moment we

:14:16.:14:18.

have local Health Services because of the reforms in the Health

:14:19.:14:24.

Service. That leads to inequality, inequity. What's the right level to

:14:25.:14:29.

pay? Is it what NICE have specified, three for women at this age? Three

:14:30.:14:34.

cycles is reasonable. There are a number of countries in Europe that

:14:35.:14:38.

offer free IVF and who have a similar cost for their Health

:14:39.:14:41.

Service that we do. They are investing the same amount. It's not

:14:42.:14:45.

just shortage of money. It is a politically taken decision

:14:46.:14:47.

essentially by most of the commissioners. Why did you write

:14:48.:14:50.

that this shouldn't be a priority for the NHS? I think it's something

:14:51.:14:55.

that I feel very strongly about. The NHS is woefully underfunded. We all

:14:56.:15:00.

know that. The NHS exists to keep us healthy. IVF isn't a cure to an

:15:01.:15:04.

illness. It's a solution for people who feel they're not achieving their

:15:05.:15:08.

life goals. I don't think that is the responsibility of the NHS.

:15:09.:15:16.

Have you had children? I don't see how that's relevant. It is very

:15:17.:15:25.

relevant. You don't have to answer the question and I don't mean to be

:15:26.:15:31.

discourteous but I have published hundreds of scientific papers and

:15:32.:15:35.

you have kindly called me a pioneer, but of my achievements my three

:15:36.:15:40.

children are what changed my life because they are the Next Generation

:15:41.:15:44.

and that's what we can contribute to. People who are infertile suffer

:15:45.:15:49.

hugely, they suffer the pain just the same as someone with an

:15:50.:15:55.

arthritic hip. This is not being fully understood and you should know

:15:56.:16:03.

better than that, I think. Sirena, I'm not going to ask whether you

:16:04.:16:06.

have had kids but I'm interested to know whether you accept the feelings

:16:07.:16:10.

people have about whether they can have kids or not are as big to them

:16:11.:16:16.

as they may be for some of the other things the NHS spends money on.

:16:17.:16:20.

Absolutely, the feelings for the individual are incredibly strong and

:16:21.:16:23.

my heart goes out to people who cannot conceive naturally and want

:16:24.:16:28.

to. But we consider the best way to become a parent is by conceiving

:16:29.:16:38.

naturally and giving birth to a child, there are actually a huge

:16:39.:16:40.

amount of options for people who cannot conceive and by putting so

:16:41.:16:42.

much money into IVF and presenting it as the number one auction are not

:16:43.:16:50.

giving alternatives. There is no children shortage. I'm afraid

:16:51.:16:56.

adoption is not a treatment for infertility. Infertility is a

:16:57.:16:59.

symptom of a disease and there are at least 100 different causes. At

:17:00.:17:09.

the moment there is a message -- massive wastage of money. Moreover,

:17:10.:17:16.

IVF is not being costed properly because in some authorities it costs

:17:17.:17:22.

?1000, in others in this country it costs ?6,000 so until the NHS gets

:17:23.:17:26.

its act in order there is a massive problem. The problem is costing in

:17:27.:17:31.

the NHS is completely random. It is a big issue. But Sirena raises the

:17:32.:17:41.

point, why not encourage people to adopt? Because there are less than

:17:42.:17:46.

1000 babies that can be adopted each year and people don't necessarily

:17:47.:17:51.

want to adopt a child that might have had very adverse experiences

:17:52.:17:54.

early in life. Most of the children you are referring to have been in

:17:55.:17:59.

care for years and you cannot adopt them early in life. I think it is a

:18:00.:18:04.

brave person who is prepared to adopt somebody under those

:18:05.:18:13.

circumstances. What is the point of Nice? May come up with a standard,

:18:14.:18:21.

then the authorities go their own way and ignore it. I do think that

:18:22.:18:26.

is a problem. You should know if you are going to be GP you will receive

:18:27.:18:32.

the same care at the point of NHS. I also think it is telling that areas

:18:33.:18:38.

are making these difficult choices, it doesn't reflect well but they

:18:39.:18:42.

know they have to do it because we are facing such a huge crisis. Very

:18:43.:18:48.

briefly, if you had to cut IVF services would you cut the age

:18:49.:18:54.

threshold or the number of cycles? I would do IVF when it is really

:18:55.:19:00.

needed, and at the moment nearly half are unnecessary. The work we

:19:01.:19:03.

are doing now, the research we are doing can reduce the cost and I

:19:04.:19:09.

think that is urgently needed. OK, we will leave it there. Thank you,

:19:10.:19:11.

both. Justin Gatlin won the 100m

:19:12.:19:13.

at the World Athletics If you watched, you could probably

:19:14.:19:15.

tell the crowd was not happy. The booing undoubtedly reflected

:19:16.:19:20.

the fact that Gatlin has served two doping bans and the feeling that,

:19:21.:19:23.

as a result, it was unfortunate that he beat Usain Bolt

:19:24.:19:26.

in this showcase event. But open-mindedness is a virtue,

:19:27.:19:28.

and there are many in the athletics business who think that

:19:29.:19:31.

Justin Gatlin deserves a lot more Among them is Gatlin's

:19:32.:19:33.

agent, Renaldo Nehemiah. I spoke to him earlier,

:19:34.:19:37.

and he told me about The first doping offence happened

:19:38.:19:51.

when Justin Gatlin was a freshman at the University of Tennessee, taking

:19:52.:19:55.

out a role for attention deficit disorder. They recognised he wasn't

:19:56.:20:03.

trying but because of the rulings he was suspended for a year. They

:20:04.:20:10.

didn't want it to reflect on his record, it was in the record that

:20:11.:20:15.

they didn't want it to reflect as a doping offence or that he was

:20:16.:20:20.

doping. The next second offence was some type of cream applied to his

:20:21.:20:26.

skin in early April Spring meeting back in 2006. But he did claim he

:20:27.:20:32.

was effectively sabotaged by a therapist who was actually trying to

:20:33.:20:36.

damage his career because they were in dispute with the management,

:20:37.:20:42.

correct? He had fired that massage therapist the previous fall, against

:20:43.:20:49.

my better judgment we couldn't find any other physios that we could

:20:50.:20:54.

afford at that time. Can you see why the crowds have great anger at

:20:55.:21:00.

people who have doping offences? I can see it back in 2010 when he

:21:01.:21:06.

first returned, 2011, when he was running again, possibly even as

:21:07.:21:14.

early as 2012. He ran in the London Olympic Stadium and won the bronze

:21:15.:21:19.

medal and no one said a word. No one said a word in 2013, 2014 or even

:21:20.:21:28.

2015. Then suddenly when he started to challenge Usain Bolt when nobody

:21:29.:21:31.

else could challenge him it became an issue. I don't have a problem

:21:32.:21:35.

with everyone feeling the same way about anti-doping but let's be

:21:36.:21:39.

honest, Justin Gatlin is not the only athlete who has tested

:21:40.:21:44.

positive. He didn't create doping and there will be others after him.

:21:45.:21:49.

It is unfair. There will be others in the stadium this week that have

:21:50.:21:53.

come off doping offences. I cannot speak because they are not winning

:21:54.:21:59.

but he has done his time, made by the rules, the IAAF reinstated him

:22:00.:22:04.

and we should accept that. To put the narrative out that it is just

:22:05.:22:09.

Justin Gatlin and he's the bad guy, it is not fair, it is inhumane, it

:22:10.:22:15.

is not sportsmanlike. How did he feel after he wins the 100m and he's

:22:16.:22:22.

booed? I had prepared him prior to this. We had been talking about a

:22:23.:22:28.

year and a half prior to that not everyone will accept you and you

:22:29.:22:32.

cannot please everyone. He who hasn't done wrong, and he without

:22:33.:22:39.

sin should cast the first stone. You cannot control the viewpoints of

:22:40.:22:44.

anyone, but he has conducted himself in a professional manner. Here is

:22:45.:22:49.

the icing on the cake. He gave Usain Bolt the greatest respect by bowing

:22:50.:23:01.

to him and Usain Bolt hugged him. He has no problem with Justin Gatlin,

:23:02.:23:06.

he's a great competitor, so if it's good for Usain Bolt it should be

:23:07.:23:14.

good for everyone else. Usain Bolt in his graciousness at published

:23:15.:23:18.

that in the press conference. I'm OK with that. If the King, the legend

:23:19.:23:24.

is OK with it, we all should be. What do you think though of the

:23:25.:23:27.

professional commentators, the media, some of those involved in

:23:28.:23:33.

international athletics, even Sebastien Coe and Steve Cram who

:23:34.:23:37.

have taken a very hard line on Justin Gatlin and have done a lot to

:23:38.:23:43.

set opinion about him? Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I take

:23:44.:23:49.

offence to Lord Coe, he's part of the IAAF who set the rules and

:23:50.:23:53.

punishments, and when you do that you are supposed to be reinstated

:23:54.:24:01.

which means athletes who have offended have, and you don't allow

:24:02.:24:12.

them in and still condemned them. We are talking Post 11 years after the

:24:13.:24:19.

ban. Other sports release their own and move past it. I don't have a

:24:20.:24:23.

problem with anyone having any issue with doping, I don't condone it but

:24:24.:24:29.

I don't think Justin Gatlin is the poster child for it. That is fact,

:24:30.:24:34.

and I will always say that. Thank you so much for making that case.

:24:35.:24:38.

An internal memo written by a male employee at Google has caused

:24:39.:24:41.

The author set out the view that some of the gender gap at Google,

:24:42.:24:46.

for example in the numbers of men and women employed as software

:24:47.:24:49.

engineers, may not be as a result of sex discrimination,

:24:50.:24:51.

but simply as a result of biological differences in the way skills

:24:52.:24:54.

and characteristics are distributed between the sexes.

:24:55.:24:55.

His memo has found its way into the public domain

:24:56.:24:58.

and if you want to read it, you can google it obviously, and

:24:59.:25:01.

The memo argues women and men are different.

:25:02.:25:31.

So the main point... Now the writer is at pains to point out you cannot

:25:32.:25:46.

stereotype based on gender but his sharpest critique is of the kind of

:25:47.:25:50.

corporate diversity that Google promotes.

:25:51.:26:09.

Which brings us to the response of Danielle Brown, Google's

:26:10.:26:13.

new head of Diversity, Integrity and Governance.

:26:14.:26:15.

She chose not to take on the argument -

:26:16.:26:17.

Well, the memo raises two questions - one is whether the author

:26:18.:26:28.

is right that genders differ in the distribution of attributes.

:26:29.:26:31.

But the other question is whether this should be

:26:32.:26:33.

Is there an authoritarian liberalism, that tries

:26:34.:26:41.

With me are the writer and campaigner Caroline Criado-Perez

:26:42.:26:48.

and the Director of the Institute of Ideas, Claire Fox.

:26:49.:26:52.

Caroline, do you think it is possible the writer is correct to

:26:53.:26:58.

say the reason there are fewer women programmers is because they are not

:26:59.:27:03.

as into programming? There is no evidence to suggest this is a result

:27:04.:27:07.

of biological difference. The idea that having a uterus makes me less

:27:08.:27:12.

predisposed to programming as opposed to the way we bring up boys

:27:13.:27:16.

and girls, for which there is a lot of evidence. I found it interesting

:27:17.:27:23.

reading his blog how much emphasis he put on facts and let's be

:27:24.:27:29.

rational about this and yet provided no citations or evidence. Is it

:27:30.:27:34.

possible he is right? There's no evidence he cites, he says it makes

:27:35.:27:37.

evolutionary sense and says it is true across different cultures...

:27:38.:27:43.

When you look at the actual evidence, so for example there is

:27:44.:27:48.

plenty of evidence showing if you submit two scientific CV is, one

:27:49.:27:52.

with a male name and a female name, exactly the same other than that,

:27:53.:27:57.

the male name gets employed and gets given a higher salary. He makes

:27:58.:28:02.

claims about women not negotiating, actually evidence shows women do

:28:03.:28:08.

negotiate but get penalised for it. This guy is perfectly entitled to

:28:09.:28:12.

his opinion, it's just that I have no respect for it because it's not

:28:13.:28:16.

based on evidence. On the substance of the issue, do you think he has a

:28:17.:28:22.

point or not? I don't agree with his point, but one substantial point he

:28:23.:28:26.

makes which I'm more sympathetic to his he says the reason why there are

:28:27.:28:31.

not as many female programmers for example is not because of sexism in

:28:32.:28:35.

many companies, and I am sympathetic to that because everywhere I look,

:28:36.:28:41.

and there is evidence for this of course, and every institution is

:28:42.:28:44.

bending over backwards to try to do something about diversity and gender

:28:45.:28:48.

imbalance. There is something else going on. The other thing is it's

:28:49.:28:54.

quite interesting because he spoke about psychological differences as

:28:55.:28:59.

well. This is an argument I have with many contemporary feminists,

:29:00.:29:02.

I'm not saying you, but they say what we need is more female MPs and

:29:03.:29:07.

more females on boards because that will lead to a softer, less

:29:08.:29:12.

aggressive atmosphere in Parliament. I think that implies there is some

:29:13.:29:17.

kind of innate femininity that makes you a nicer person so that identity

:29:18.:29:22.

point of what he says is very familiar to us. When it is said by

:29:23.:29:27.

feminists it's greeted as an interesting thought, when it is said

:29:28.:29:33.

by this guy, it is let on, where is your evidence? To be fair to

:29:34.:29:37.

feminists, there is disagreement within feminism and evidence

:29:38.:29:42.

suggests there isn't an innate... There is a fantastic book written by

:29:43.:29:48.

this actually. Studies continue to accumulate showing educated women in

:29:49.:29:52.

industrial democracies when they get choice they opt for socially

:29:53.:29:58.

meaningful work and fewer hours. Women do 75% of the underpaid care

:29:59.:30:02.

and governments to provide good childcare.

:30:03.:30:06.

We might have women choosing for reasons that society organises,

:30:07.:30:12.

doesn't give you enough child care or whatever the reasons, it's

:30:13.:30:15.

society that might mean that women choose to work less hours and so on.

:30:16.:30:20.

That means that they therefore might not be choosing to do things with

:30:21.:30:25.

long hours. It's not Google the sexist company. How free is that

:30:26.:30:30.

choice? I know, but the point... Claire's point is it wouldn't be

:30:31.:30:35.

Google's fault. I'm not suggesting that Google is deliberately - This

:30:36.:30:38.

guy is making the point that's what is said. A great story last year. A

:30:39.:30:44.

point made about a very, very bright young daughter who was equally good

:30:45.:30:48.

as sciences as the arts. She chose to do the arts, she was treated as

:30:49.:30:54.

though she was betraying the sifterhood because she wouldn't --

:30:55.:30:59.

sisterhood because she wouldn't take up stem subjects. The important

:31:00.:31:02.

thing is that women are going to be the engineers of the future, they

:31:03.:31:05.

say. Brilliant. I love things like code first girls an the work they

:31:06.:31:08.

do. I like all that stuff. But I think it has to be that they choose.

:31:09.:31:13.

There is a danger, this is what this guy argues, that what happens is

:31:14.:31:17.

that women who don't choose to take up stem issues get accused of not

:31:18.:31:21.

being pioneers in the science and technology issues. Do you, would you

:31:22.:31:27.

say that - you know people draw generalisations about left and right

:31:28.:31:31.

handed people. Studies will say left handed people are better at maths,

:31:32.:31:35.

because of right brain dominance. Do you reject all this afternoon and

:31:36.:31:40.

just think it's nonsense? I mean, you know, I'm not going to be

:31:41.:31:44.

completely dogmatic about it and say that there is no way in any future

:31:45.:31:49.

there will be some kind of - but I would say that whatever we find will

:31:50.:31:55.

be so minuscule as to be fairly irrelevant and will not demonstrate

:31:56.:31:58.

any way enough of a difference between the sexes to show why we

:31:59.:32:03.

have such a big difference. The science isn't 100% there to

:32:04.:32:06.

determine whether it's biology or society. It's legitimate to make the

:32:07.:32:11.

point. He can make whatever point he wants. And not get the sack. I don't

:32:12.:32:15.

care what he believes he's just wrong. No, but this is very

:32:16.:32:20.

important. He wrote this actually largely about how diversity has

:32:21.:32:24.

become an ideology in Google. Hiring policies have been re-organised

:32:25.:32:28.

around Diversity ends rather than hiring people who are best for the

:32:29.:32:32.

job. I think that does no-one a service, certainly not women for

:32:33.:32:38.

whom it is patronising. This guy is now getting absolutely

:32:39.:32:40.

internationally pillaried and hammered for being anti-women. He

:32:41.:32:44.

isn't. He raises an important illiberalism. I'm so sorry - The

:32:45.:32:50.

best person for the job, because Diversity can lead to being the best

:32:51.:32:54.

person for the job. It doesn't guarantee it. We need to leave it.

:32:55.:32:57.

There -- to leave it there. Thanks both

:32:58.:32:59.

very much. The DUP may be the most successful

:33:00.:33:00.

electoral force in Northern Ireland, but in the rest of the UK the party

:33:01.:33:03.

has something of an image problem. It is often seen as stuck

:33:04.:33:07.

in the past, too religiously conservative, and sometimes

:33:08.:33:09.

illiberal, or even bigoted. A party for old people,

:33:10.:33:12.

not the young. So, is that image fair,

:33:13.:33:17.

or simply a reflection of people making too little effort to get

:33:18.:33:20.

to know the DUP and its supporters? Well, Stacey Dooley makes

:33:21.:33:23.

documentaries for BBC Three, which is of course primarily aimed

:33:24.:33:25.

at the younger audiences, and Stacey has been

:33:26.:33:27.

to Northern Ireland to meet some of the party's supporters to get

:33:28.:33:30.

to know the DUP better. Right now, I am on my way

:33:31.:33:37.

to go and have a chat Ruth is a DUP supporter

:33:38.:33:41.

and I think she actually campaigns for them as well,

:33:42.:33:45.

so heavily involved. She's 19, so just

:33:46.:33:47.

started voting really. My dad is Ian Paisley Jr's election

:33:48.:33:59.

agent, so this was in 2010 when Dr Paisley was

:34:00.:34:13.

helping Ian canvas. I agree with all their views,

:34:14.:34:18.

but also things in Northern Ireland, it's more than just

:34:19.:34:27.

like the political views on gay marriage and stuff,

:34:28.:34:29.

it's about, like, keeping Sinn Fein out and they have very real

:34:30.:34:33.

terrorist links in the past. What are your thoughts

:34:34.:34:36.

on gay couples? I believe it's wrong, there's no

:34:37.:34:38.

easy way about that, but... I have been called a homophobe

:34:39.:34:44.

before, which is not true, because I have simply said

:34:45.:34:49.

there that I disagree. Tell me what is so wrong when a man

:34:50.:34:53.

kisses another man or has You can't have sex like, erm,

:34:54.:34:56.

you can't have children with two males, you can't have children

:34:57.:35:09.

with two women. Do you ever feel for Ruth

:35:10.:35:13.

because her opinions are sometimes seen as being very extreme

:35:14.:35:29.

or radical, controversial? Do you think it difficult for Ruth

:35:30.:35:32.

at 19 to sort of stick her heels in? I think it probably is, because I

:35:33.:35:36.

think there's an expectation amongst people in general,

:35:37.:35:39.

and particularly for young people that they should be liberal

:35:40.:35:41.

in their outlook. But I think you have to do what's

:35:42.:35:44.

right, especially if you feel you're standing before God, that

:35:45.:35:48.

you have to be right before him. And I don't think being very

:35:49.:35:53.

conservative with a small C necessarily means that you,

:35:54.:35:58.

you know, there shouldn't be a hatred towards people that

:35:59.:36:01.

you don't agree with. Whereas I feel that's coming

:36:02.:36:04.

the other way at the moment. I think that's the reason

:36:05.:36:06.

possibly while you are here. Because there is that feeling

:36:07.:36:12.

that the DUP are extreme. Jackie and Ruth aren't the only DUP

:36:13.:36:17.

voters I meet who believe the party has been treated unfairly

:36:18.:36:21.

following the deal. Young unionists in Northern Ireland

:36:22.:36:26.

show their loyalty to Britain How do you think the DUP

:36:27.:36:30.

are being perceived back in England? They are being made out

:36:31.:36:46.

as if they are so against gays and they are really against abortion

:36:47.:36:53.

and all, but it is the inner beliefs of the party and that's really,

:36:54.:36:57.

for me anyway, that's Do you blame the DUP for turning

:36:58.:37:01.

the screw on Theresa May? No, I don't blame Arlene Foster

:37:02.:37:07.

for saying, right, you want to play If they were in the DUP's shoes,

:37:08.:37:10.

they would have done 1.5 billion, that will be hopefully

:37:11.:37:19.

poured into your communities. Well, I hope the government stays

:37:20.:37:25.

as long as it can, like. I've been brought up being British,

:37:26.:37:31.

don't know anything else. Where are they, Sinn Fein

:37:32.:37:35.

and you say the others are Catholics and all,

:37:36.:37:41.

they want just to wipe us When they say they want

:37:42.:37:43.

the British out of Ireland, I need to meet the other side

:37:44.:37:47.

that seem so threatening The second largest political party

:37:48.:37:54.

in Northern Ireland is Sinn Fein. I'm meeting Dominic and Tam,

:37:55.:38:03.

two of their supporters, They have said, you know, with every

:38:04.:38:08.

inch of themselves they would never ever in a million years entertain

:38:09.:38:15.

the idea of not being British As far as I'm concerned,

:38:16.:38:20.

a united Ireland is inevitable. And I think the more they sit down

:38:21.:38:27.

and engage about it and actually discuss what it would be

:38:28.:38:30.

like within it rather than a blinkered approach

:38:31.:38:34.

of never, never, never. I don't think it's a pipe dream,

:38:35.:38:36.

I think it's something I definitely It's this faith that

:38:37.:38:39.

Ireland will become united In Protestant areas,

:38:40.:38:45.

they're building bonfires to commemorate a 320-year-old battle

:38:46.:38:51.

won by a Protestant king. I've come to the Cragar Estate to

:38:52.:38:56.

understand more about the DUP vote. Gwen is the community worker

:38:57.:39:01.

who is in charge of safety Let me ask you this,

:39:02.:39:04.

Gwen, do you think... How useful, how helpful do

:39:05.:39:10.

you think it is to put these We are British, we

:39:11.:39:15.

are British subjects. I own a British passport and I am

:39:16.:39:23.

proud to say I'm British. Sinn Fein want the united Ireland,

:39:24.:39:26.

that is the way they brought That is their main aim, and they

:39:27.:39:29.

will do it through any means. I actually believe that we are more

:39:30.:39:35.

British than the English are, Why do so many people

:39:36.:39:38.

vote for the DUP here? We are sort of forced

:39:39.:39:42.

to vote for DUP, bringing Do you agree with everything

:39:43.:39:44.

the DUP stand for? With same-sex marriage

:39:45.:39:51.

and things, we don't care. We have people in here that are gay

:39:52.:39:55.

and we don't have a problem I suppose I came here assuming that

:39:56.:39:58.

I would be spending time with people who were intolerant towards same-sex

:39:59.:40:07.

relationships, same-sex Actually on the ground,

:40:08.:40:10.

so many people here aren't intolerant toward their neighbours,

:40:11.:40:17.

the nationalists. Because the Prime Minister

:40:18.:40:25.

is relying on the DUP, it's hard for her to be

:40:26.:40:30.

seen as truly neutral The danger is that Theresa May's

:40:31.:40:33.

deal with the DUP will deepen That was Stacey Dooley,

:40:34.:40:42.

and a longer version of her BBC Three film,

:40:43.:40:54.

Stacey Dooley Meets DUP Voters, Now, before we go,

:40:55.:40:58.

although we like to think we've been able to provide you with a whole

:40:59.:41:07.

40-minute programme full of serious news, some of our colleagues

:41:08.:41:10.

in other outlets have been, shall we say, struggling

:41:11.:41:12.

with the news drought Here's the News

:41:13.:41:14.

Channel's Simon McCoy. Just bear in mind, it is August.

:41:15.:41:26.

This does not look like a walk in the park. Dog owners and their pets

:41:27.:41:31.

in California have hit the waves in the second annual world dog surfing

:41:32.:41:34.

Championships. Here are the pictures. There's confidence,

:41:35.:41:41.

there's the size of the waves. Some events have big waves, some small.

:41:42.:41:44.

There's style and technique. It's really interesting. The competitors'

:41:45.:41:52.

main challenge is to stay afloat on the board. This is near San

:41:53.:41:58.

Francisco. There are prizes for the best dressed and tandem surfing

:41:59.:42:03.

dogs, the winner being crowned top dog.

:42:04.:42:07.

That's a shame, we've run out of pictures.

:42:08.:42:10.

I would like to have seen the extra pictures.

:42:11.:42:11.

Maybe he should have taken a leaf out of another news anchor's book.

:42:12.:42:14.

What you're about to see is a Channel 4 news exclusive. This is

:42:15.:42:23.

Nutty the squirrel. He's three years old. How about that! That squirrel

:42:24.:42:34.

can water-ski! That's hillarious. Hello, Tuesday is shaping up to be a

:42:35.:42:38.

rather disappointing day again for the greater part of England and

:42:39.:42:42.

Wales. It may not start

:42:43.:42:43.

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