Browse content similar to 07/08/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Corbyn's Venezuela conundrum - he doesn't want to desert his | :00:00. | :00:08. | |
old friends running the country, but he can't avoid acknowledging | :00:09. | :00:11. | |
In the end, he steered a carefully nuanced in-between line, | :00:12. | :00:18. | |
but the Venezuelan opposition tell us he's got it wrong. | :00:19. | :00:24. | |
Maybe the mothers and fathers of those that have been killed would be | :00:25. | :00:32. | |
willing to speak to Jeremy Corbyn to explain and to tell him what the | :00:33. | :00:34. | |
real situation has been. Justin Gatlin was booed | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
for his success at the World His agent explains why | :00:39. | :00:40. | |
the crowd had got it wrong. 80% of Google software | :00:41. | :00:46. | |
engineers are male. Or a sign that women | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
aren't into programming? There's an argument | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
at Google about it. And we'll ask if it's | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
politically incorrect to even Stacey Dooley meets | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
some its supporters. How helpful do you think it is to | :01:01. | :01:14. | |
put these posters on the bonfire? Because they are our enemies. We | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
belong to Britain. We are British. We are British subjects. I hold a | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
British passport and I'm proud to say I'm British. | :01:22. | :01:27. | |
We don't know what the Venezuelans think of Jeremy Corbyn, | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
but we do now know what Mr Corbyn thinks about Venezuela. | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
He's back from a holiday in Croatia and was under immediate pressure | :01:35. | :01:38. | |
to condemn the socialist government in Venezuela, having given it warm | :01:39. | :01:40. | |
It's not good to be too supportive of a government arresting political | :01:41. | :01:48. | |
opponents in the dead of night, but Mr Corbyn has a good deal | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
of political capital invested in Nicolas Maduro's Venezuela. | :01:53. | :01:55. | |
So how the big question today, was how he would | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
Many of his colleagues are clear, Maduro is to be condemned. | :02:00. | :02:03. | |
What I condemn is the violence that's been done by any side, | :02:04. | :02:09. | |
Violence is not going to solve the issue. | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
The issues of Venezuela are partly structural because not enough has | :02:14. | :02:16. | |
been done to diversify the economy away from oil. | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
That has to be a priority for the future. | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
We also have to recognise there have been effective and serious attempts | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
to reduce poverty in Venezuela and improving literacy | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
and improving the lives of many of the poorest people. | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
Earlier this evening, I spoke to Juan Andres Mejia, founding | :02:36. | :02:38. | |
member and National Director of one of the main Venezuelan opposition | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
I asked whether it is right that both sides are responsible | :02:43. | :02:48. | |
I don't think it's fair. What has happened in the past four months in | :02:49. | :03:01. | |
our country is that you have had the majority of Venezuelans protesting, | :03:02. | :03:04. | |
demanding change, demanding free and fair elections and they have been | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
received by the National Guard and the police with tear gas, with | :03:10. | :03:15. | |
rubber bullets and sometimes too with regular bullets with shot guns. | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
More than 120 people have been killed. According to the | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
Attorney-General, this is the person that was not a supporter of the | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
opposition until recently, she has said that more than 90% of those | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
that have been killed are opposition protesters. Especially young people, | :03:32. | :03:39. | |
between the ages of 20 and 30. There has been violence in Venezuela. We | :03:40. | :03:42. | |
condemn all violence. Its not fair to say it has been on both sides. | :03:43. | :03:49. | |
There is one side that has insisted in protesting peacefully and every | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
time that the police or National Guard appears, it ends with people | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
being killed. Just tell us about the opposition and who they are. The | :03:58. | :04:04. | |
opposition has evolved since it began in Venezuela. Today you have | :04:05. | :04:16. | |
parties from all ideologies. You have leftist parties, such as Accion | :04:17. | :04:25. | |
Democrata. Such as Popular Will, my own party. And you have centre-right | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
parties. The most important fact is that the opposition now has younger | :04:31. | :04:37. | |
leaders, younger members of Congress who want change for all Venezuelans | :04:38. | :04:45. | |
and who believe that this change has to happen within democracy. It is | :04:46. | :04:52. | |
more Democrats and those who wish to change the rules by which we have | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
governed this country for the past 50 years. The socialist experiment | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
in Venezuela has failed and it has failed very badly. The economic and | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
political crisis we have is tremendous. There has never been | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
something like. A lot of people are not eating three times a day. Many | :05:13. | :05:23. | |
people are eating from the garbage. Scarcity of basic goods is clear. | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
For most people who are willing to elect a different president, the | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
struggle nowadays is not between two halves, two parts of the country. It | :05:34. | :05:36. | |
is between the majority of the people who want change and those who | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
refuse to allow it. You're a party of the left, we should be clear. | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
Yeah. Are you saying socialism doesn't work and you've seen that in | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
Venezuela. Excuse me when I speak about socialism in such an easy way, | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
because when we say socialism in Venezuela we mean more Communist | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
than anything else. In Venezuela this is not a socialist experiment, | :06:00. | :06:07. | |
to be fair. It's more of a leftist, autocratic experiment. There's no | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
freedom of expression. There is no freedom of speech. You have hundreds | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
of political prisoners in our country. So this is not a very | :06:18. | :06:24. | |
socialist experiment. This is a country where those in power have | :06:25. | :06:30. | |
tremendous benefits. They move around the city of Caracas with | :06:31. | :06:36. | |
bodyguards, in bullet-proof cars. They have become an elite | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
themselves, while the rest of the country has been suffering. This is | :06:41. | :06:46. | |
not a socialist government. This is an elite, call themselves | :06:47. | :06:49. | |
socialists, but their interest is staying in power forever. Your party | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
Popular Will, is a member of the socialist international, which | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
actually means it is affiliated through that to the Labour Party in | :06:58. | :07:04. | |
the United Kingdom. I mean, how important is it that foreign left of | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
centre parties support your side of this argument rather than the Maduro | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
side? It is very important because the government has a strong | :07:15. | :07:23. | |
propaganda team. It is not fair, we don't feel supported when | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
governments around the world present the situation here as if it was a | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
conflict between left and right-wing parties. This is a conflict between | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
democracy and dictatorship. This is a conflict between respecting human | :07:38. | :07:39. | |
rights and violating human rights. This is a conflict between the | :07:40. | :07:42. | |
majority of the people who want change and who want to bring that | :07:43. | :07:49. | |
change with elections and between a minority who is willing to do | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
anything to stay in power. What do you think when you see Jeremy Corbyn | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
essentially trying to steer a rather fine line between the two sides in | :07:58. | :08:00. | |
this? What I would say to Jeremy Corbyn is that he really has to know | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
what's going on in our country to be able to make a statement. Violence | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
has not been done by both sides. Violence has been promoted by the | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
government. They have armed paramilitary groups that have taken | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
the lives of hundreds of people in Venezuela. Maybe the mothers and | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
fathers of those that have been killed would be willing to speak to | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
Jeremy Corbyn to explain and to tell him what the real situation has | :08:32. | :08:39. | |
been. People such as a 17-year-old teenager, who went out to the | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
streets to protest because he was convinced that he should have a | :08:43. | :08:49. | |
different future. Other people such as a man killed by a gunshot, shot | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
by a member of the National Guard and all he was trying to do was | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
raising his voice for a different country for democracy. I'm pretty | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
sure the family of these people that have been killed are willing to let | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
Jeremy Corbyn know what the real situation has been and how they have | :09:10. | :09:12. | |
been killed during the past four months. Thank you so much. Thanks | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
for your time tonight. No-one says it's easy | :09:18. | :09:19. | |
to make spending decisions in the NHS right now, | :09:20. | :09:21. | |
but among the unpleasant choices being made in parts of the country, | :09:22. | :09:24. | |
are cuts in IVF treatments. The NHS standard - set by NICE, | :09:25. | :09:27. | |
the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence - | :09:28. | :09:30. | |
is that women under 40, unable to conceive for two years, | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
should be offered three cycles But, the group Fertility Network UK | :09:34. | :09:36. | |
has found that almost half the areas in England have decided to breech | :09:37. | :09:46. | |
that standard - cutting the three cycles to two or one | :09:47. | :09:48. | |
or none, in some cases. With no NHS IVF, the only option | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
is then to go private. Elaine Dunkley has been to Bristol, | :09:53. | :10:00. | |
where they are consulting on plans This baby is Ellie's dream come | :10:01. | :10:15. | |
true. At 39 and after years of trying to conceive, Ellie's first | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
round of IVF was successful. Ellie was forced to go private and says | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
the system is unfair for those who can't afford to pay. We decided to | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
go private because I was refused by the NHS because I had an early | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
miscarriage. They told me I was subfertile rather than infertile. | :10:32. | :10:34. | |
They wouldn't fund it. Not being able to have a baby was horrendous. | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
I know not all people this is what they want. For me, it was my world. | :10:40. | :10:42. | |
It was everything I wanted. Then to be turned down by the NHS and told | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
they weren't going to help me was absolutely devastating. It's a lot | :10:48. | :10:50. | |
of money. For a lot of people that money isn't available. I was really | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
fortunate that my family was able to help me. But I know not everybody is | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
in that situation. If we have to go for a second round of IVF, we will | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
have to remortgage the house or get a loan. Under guidance by NICE, | :11:03. | :11:10. | |
those aged under 40 with fertility problems should be offered up to | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
three cycles of IVF. Those aged between 40 and 42 should be offered | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
one, if they meet a certain criteria. But this doesn't always | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
happen. A cycle of IVF can cost in excess of ?3,000. Decisions on who | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
is eligible are taken by local clinical commissioning groups. It's | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
becoming a postcode lottery because of the way we commission in the UK. | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
It doesn't have to be in that way, because we have NHS England for | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
example that has a national programme for Jen itics associated | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
with IVF. The commissioning groups are able to not only decide whether | :11:44. | :11:50. | |
they will fund IVF but to provide restrictive elability criteria if | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
they do fund it. Very few people get access to IVF that actually require | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
it. Some describe it as unethical, unfair and discriminatory, but | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
ultimately it comes down to cost and whether the NHS should be funding | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
the desire to become a parent when money is needed in so many other | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
areas. Five areas have now stopped offering IVF. Since the beginning of | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
this year, the number of cycles women are entitled to has been | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
reduced by 12 clinical commissioning groups. And in September, these | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
areas will decide on whether IVF should be restricted to women who | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
are 30 to 35, those most likely to conceive with treatment. One of | :12:28. | :12:34. | |
those areas is in Bristol, the place where the world's first test tube | :12:35. | :12:41. | |
baby was born. Mr Acardi has helped thousands conceive and doesn't | :12:42. | :12:43. | |
believe age should be the only factor. Success rates are very | :12:44. | :12:49. | |
reasonable until the age of 42. So yes, one can take an individual | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
approach and clinics do that all the time. Remember, fertility, | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
infertility itself is classified as a disease. That means there are some | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
couples and some people where without help there is absolutely no | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
way they will be able to achieve a pregnancy. Therefore, they need | :13:09. | :13:15. | |
medical help. Every day the NHS is forced to make difficult decisions | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
over what it can and can't afford. This is little consolation to those | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
who feel time and funding is against them. | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
It's really unfair that people are treated differently across the | :13:30. | :13:32. | |
country, you've got the postcode lottery. I can understand there's | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
funding issues and they need to find ways to restrict it, I think the way | :13:37. | :13:37. | |
they're doing it is really unfair. Well, now we are joined | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
by Professor Robert Winston, a world expert in fertility and one | :13:44. | :13:46. | |
of the early pioneers of IVF, also the freelance journalist | :13:47. | :13:49. | |
Sirena Bergman, who has written in the Independent today that IVF | :13:50. | :13:51. | |
is costly and ineffective and its time to stop offering it | :13:52. | :13:54. | |
on the NHS. You would argue that there shouldn't | :13:55. | :14:07. | |
be a postcode lottery and the NHS should pay. Thank you for putting my | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
argument for me. That's helpful. Explain why. I agree with that. If | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
we have a National Health Service it has to be national. At the moment we | :14:16. | :14:18. | |
have local Health Services because of the reforms in the Health | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
Service. That leads to inequality, inequity. What's the right level to | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
pay? Is it what NICE have specified, three for women at this age? Three | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
cycles is reasonable. There are a number of countries in Europe that | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
offer free IVF and who have a similar cost for their Health | :14:39. | :14:41. | |
Service that we do. They are investing the same amount. It's not | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
just shortage of money. It is a politically taken decision | :14:46. | :14:47. | |
essentially by most of the commissioners. Why did you write | :14:48. | :14:50. | |
that this shouldn't be a priority for the NHS? I think it's something | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
that I feel very strongly about. The NHS is woefully underfunded. We all | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
know that. The NHS exists to keep us healthy. IVF isn't a cure to an | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
illness. It's a solution for people who feel they're not achieving their | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
life goals. I don't think that is the responsibility of the NHS. | :15:09. | :15:16. | |
Have you had children? I don't see how that's relevant. It is very | :15:17. | :15:25. | |
relevant. You don't have to answer the question and I don't mean to be | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
discourteous but I have published hundreds of scientific papers and | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
you have kindly called me a pioneer, but of my achievements my three | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
children are what changed my life because they are the Next Generation | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
and that's what we can contribute to. People who are infertile suffer | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
hugely, they suffer the pain just the same as someone with an | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
arthritic hip. This is not being fully understood and you should know | :15:56. | :16:03. | |
better than that, I think. Sirena, I'm not going to ask whether you | :16:04. | :16:06. | |
have had kids but I'm interested to know whether you accept the feelings | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
people have about whether they can have kids or not are as big to them | :16:11. | :16:16. | |
as they may be for some of the other things the NHS spends money on. | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
Absolutely, the feelings for the individual are incredibly strong and | :16:21. | :16:23. | |
my heart goes out to people who cannot conceive naturally and want | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
to. But we consider the best way to become a parent is by conceiving | :16:29. | :16:38. | |
naturally and giving birth to a child, there are actually a huge | :16:39. | :16:40. | |
amount of options for people who cannot conceive and by putting so | :16:41. | :16:42. | |
much money into IVF and presenting it as the number one auction are not | :16:43. | :16:50. | |
giving alternatives. There is no children shortage. I'm afraid | :16:51. | :16:56. | |
adoption is not a treatment for infertility. Infertility is a | :16:57. | :16:59. | |
symptom of a disease and there are at least 100 different causes. At | :17:00. | :17:09. | |
the moment there is a message -- massive wastage of money. Moreover, | :17:10. | :17:16. | |
IVF is not being costed properly because in some authorities it costs | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
?1000, in others in this country it costs ?6,000 so until the NHS gets | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
its act in order there is a massive problem. The problem is costing in | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
the NHS is completely random. It is a big issue. But Sirena raises the | :17:32. | :17:41. | |
point, why not encourage people to adopt? Because there are less than | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
1000 babies that can be adopted each year and people don't necessarily | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
want to adopt a child that might have had very adverse experiences | :17:52. | :17:54. | |
early in life. Most of the children you are referring to have been in | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
care for years and you cannot adopt them early in life. I think it is a | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
brave person who is prepared to adopt somebody under those | :18:05. | :18:13. | |
circumstances. What is the point of Nice? May come up with a standard, | :18:14. | :18:21. | |
then the authorities go their own way and ignore it. I do think that | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
is a problem. You should know if you are going to be GP you will receive | :18:27. | :18:32. | |
the same care at the point of NHS. I also think it is telling that areas | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
are making these difficult choices, it doesn't reflect well but they | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
know they have to do it because we are facing such a huge crisis. Very | :18:43. | :18:48. | |
briefly, if you had to cut IVF services would you cut the age | :18:49. | :18:54. | |
threshold or the number of cycles? I would do IVF when it is really | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
needed, and at the moment nearly half are unnecessary. The work we | :19:01. | :19:03. | |
are doing now, the research we are doing can reduce the cost and I | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
think that is urgently needed. OK, we will leave it there. Thank you, | :19:10. | :19:11. | |
both. Justin Gatlin won the 100m | :19:12. | :19:13. | |
at the World Athletics If you watched, you could probably | :19:14. | :19:15. | |
tell the crowd was not happy. The booing undoubtedly reflected | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
the fact that Gatlin has served two doping bans and the feeling that, | :19:21. | :19:23. | |
as a result, it was unfortunate that he beat Usain Bolt | :19:24. | :19:26. | |
in this showcase event. But open-mindedness is a virtue, | :19:27. | :19:28. | |
and there are many in the athletics business who think that | :19:29. | :19:31. | |
Justin Gatlin deserves a lot more Among them is Gatlin's | :19:32. | :19:33. | |
agent, Renaldo Nehemiah. I spoke to him earlier, | :19:34. | :19:37. | |
and he told me about The first doping offence happened | :19:38. | :19:51. | |
when Justin Gatlin was a freshman at the University of Tennessee, taking | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
out a role for attention deficit disorder. They recognised he wasn't | :19:56. | :20:03. | |
trying but because of the rulings he was suspended for a year. They | :20:04. | :20:10. | |
didn't want it to reflect on his record, it was in the record that | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
they didn't want it to reflect as a doping offence or that he was | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
doping. The next second offence was some type of cream applied to his | :20:21. | :20:26. | |
skin in early April Spring meeting back in 2006. But he did claim he | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
was effectively sabotaged by a therapist who was actually trying to | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
damage his career because they were in dispute with the management, | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
correct? He had fired that massage therapist the previous fall, against | :20:43. | :20:49. | |
my better judgment we couldn't find any other physios that we could | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
afford at that time. Can you see why the crowds have great anger at | :20:55. | :21:00. | |
people who have doping offences? I can see it back in 2010 when he | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
first returned, 2011, when he was running again, possibly even as | :21:07. | :21:14. | |
early as 2012. He ran in the London Olympic Stadium and won the bronze | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
medal and no one said a word. No one said a word in 2013, 2014 or even | :21:20. | :21:28. | |
2015. Then suddenly when he started to challenge Usain Bolt when nobody | :21:29. | :21:31. | |
else could challenge him it became an issue. I don't have a problem | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
with everyone feeling the same way about anti-doping but let's be | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
honest, Justin Gatlin is not the only athlete who has tested | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
positive. He didn't create doping and there will be others after him. | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
It is unfair. There will be others in the stadium this week that have | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
come off doping offences. I cannot speak because they are not winning | :21:54. | :21:59. | |
but he has done his time, made by the rules, the IAAF reinstated him | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
and we should accept that. To put the narrative out that it is just | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
Justin Gatlin and he's the bad guy, it is not fair, it is inhumane, it | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
is not sportsmanlike. How did he feel after he wins the 100m and he's | :22:16. | :22:22. | |
booed? I had prepared him prior to this. We had been talking about a | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
year and a half prior to that not everyone will accept you and you | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
cannot please everyone. He who hasn't done wrong, and he without | :22:33. | :22:39. | |
sin should cast the first stone. You cannot control the viewpoints of | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
anyone, but he has conducted himself in a professional manner. Here is | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
the icing on the cake. He gave Usain Bolt the greatest respect by bowing | :22:50. | :23:01. | |
to him and Usain Bolt hugged him. He has no problem with Justin Gatlin, | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
he's a great competitor, so if it's good for Usain Bolt it should be | :23:07. | :23:14. | |
good for everyone else. Usain Bolt in his graciousness at published | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
that in the press conference. I'm OK with that. If the King, the legend | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
is OK with it, we all should be. What do you think though of the | :23:25. | :23:27. | |
professional commentators, the media, some of those involved in | :23:28. | :23:33. | |
international athletics, even Sebastien Coe and Steve Cram who | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
have taken a very hard line on Justin Gatlin and have done a lot to | :23:38. | :23:43. | |
set opinion about him? Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I take | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
offence to Lord Coe, he's part of the IAAF who set the rules and | :23:50. | :23:53. | |
punishments, and when you do that you are supposed to be reinstated | :23:54. | :24:01. | |
which means athletes who have offended have, and you don't allow | :24:02. | :24:12. | |
them in and still condemned them. We are talking Post 11 years after the | :24:13. | :24:19. | |
ban. Other sports release their own and move past it. I don't have a | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
problem with anyone having any issue with doping, I don't condone it but | :24:24. | :24:29. | |
I don't think Justin Gatlin is the poster child for it. That is fact, | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
and I will always say that. Thank you so much for making that case. | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
An internal memo written by a male employee at Google has caused | :24:39. | :24:41. | |
The author set out the view that some of the gender gap at Google, | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
for example in the numbers of men and women employed as software | :24:47. | :24:49. | |
engineers, may not be as a result of sex discrimination, | :24:50. | :24:51. | |
but simply as a result of biological differences in the way skills | :24:52. | :24:54. | |
and characteristics are distributed between the sexes. | :24:55. | :24:55. | |
His memo has found its way into the public domain | :24:56. | :24:58. | |
and if you want to read it, you can google it obviously, and | :24:59. | :25:01. | |
The memo argues women and men are different. | :25:02. | :25:31. | |
So the main point... Now the writer is at pains to point out you cannot | :25:32. | :25:46. | |
stereotype based on gender but his sharpest critique is of the kind of | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
corporate diversity that Google promotes. | :25:51. | :26:09. | |
Which brings us to the response of Danielle Brown, Google's | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
new head of Diversity, Integrity and Governance. | :26:14. | :26:15. | |
She chose not to take on the argument - | :26:16. | :26:17. | |
Well, the memo raises two questions - one is whether the author | :26:18. | :26:28. | |
is right that genders differ in the distribution of attributes. | :26:29. | :26:31. | |
But the other question is whether this should be | :26:32. | :26:33. | |
Is there an authoritarian liberalism, that tries | :26:34. | :26:41. | |
With me are the writer and campaigner Caroline Criado-Perez | :26:42. | :26:48. | |
and the Director of the Institute of Ideas, Claire Fox. | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
Caroline, do you think it is possible the writer is correct to | :26:53. | :26:58. | |
say the reason there are fewer women programmers is because they are not | :26:59. | :27:03. | |
as into programming? There is no evidence to suggest this is a result | :27:04. | :27:07. | |
of biological difference. The idea that having a uterus makes me less | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
predisposed to programming as opposed to the way we bring up boys | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
and girls, for which there is a lot of evidence. I found it interesting | :27:17. | :27:23. | |
reading his blog how much emphasis he put on facts and let's be | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
rational about this and yet provided no citations or evidence. Is it | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
possible he is right? There's no evidence he cites, he says it makes | :27:35. | :27:37. | |
evolutionary sense and says it is true across different cultures... | :27:38. | :27:43. | |
When you look at the actual evidence, so for example there is | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
plenty of evidence showing if you submit two scientific CV is, one | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
with a male name and a female name, exactly the same other than that, | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
the male name gets employed and gets given a higher salary. He makes | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
claims about women not negotiating, actually evidence shows women do | :28:03. | :28:08. | |
negotiate but get penalised for it. This guy is perfectly entitled to | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
his opinion, it's just that I have no respect for it because it's not | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
based on evidence. On the substance of the issue, do you think he has a | :28:17. | :28:22. | |
point or not? I don't agree with his point, but one substantial point he | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
makes which I'm more sympathetic to his he says the reason why there are | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
not as many female programmers for example is not because of sexism in | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
many companies, and I am sympathetic to that because everywhere I look, | :28:36. | :28:41. | |
and there is evidence for this of course, and every institution is | :28:42. | :28:44. | |
bending over backwards to try to do something about diversity and gender | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
imbalance. There is something else going on. The other thing is it's | :28:49. | :28:54. | |
quite interesting because he spoke about psychological differences as | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
well. This is an argument I have with many contemporary feminists, | :29:00. | :29:02. | |
I'm not saying you, but they say what we need is more female MPs and | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
more females on boards because that will lead to a softer, less | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
aggressive atmosphere in Parliament. I think that implies there is some | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
kind of innate femininity that makes you a nicer person so that identity | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
point of what he says is very familiar to us. When it is said by | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
feminists it's greeted as an interesting thought, when it is said | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
by this guy, it is let on, where is your evidence? To be fair to | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
feminists, there is disagreement within feminism and evidence | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
suggests there isn't an innate... There is a fantastic book written by | :29:43. | :29:48. | |
this actually. Studies continue to accumulate showing educated women in | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
industrial democracies when they get choice they opt for socially | :29:53. | :29:58. | |
meaningful work and fewer hours. Women do 75% of the underpaid care | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
and governments to provide good childcare. | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
We might have women choosing for reasons that society organises, | :30:07. | :30:12. | |
doesn't give you enough child care or whatever the reasons, it's | :30:13. | :30:15. | |
society that might mean that women choose to work less hours and so on. | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
That means that they therefore might not be choosing to do things with | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
long hours. It's not Google the sexist company. How free is that | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
choice? I know, but the point... Claire's point is it wouldn't be | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
Google's fault. I'm not suggesting that Google is deliberately - This | :30:36. | :30:38. | |
guy is making the point that's what is said. A great story last year. A | :30:39. | :30:44. | |
point made about a very, very bright young daughter who was equally good | :30:45. | :30:48. | |
as sciences as the arts. She chose to do the arts, she was treated as | :30:49. | :30:54. | |
though she was betraying the sifterhood because she wouldn't -- | :30:55. | :30:59. | |
sisterhood because she wouldn't take up stem subjects. The important | :31:00. | :31:02. | |
thing is that women are going to be the engineers of the future, they | :31:03. | :31:05. | |
say. Brilliant. I love things like code first girls an the work they | :31:06. | :31:08. | |
do. I like all that stuff. But I think it has to be that they choose. | :31:09. | :31:13. | |
There is a danger, this is what this guy argues, that what happens is | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
that women who don't choose to take up stem issues get accused of not | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
being pioneers in the science and technology issues. Do you, would you | :31:22. | :31:27. | |
say that - you know people draw generalisations about left and right | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
handed people. Studies will say left handed people are better at maths, | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
because of right brain dominance. Do you reject all this afternoon and | :31:36. | :31:40. | |
just think it's nonsense? I mean, you know, I'm not going to be | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
completely dogmatic about it and say that there is no way in any future | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
there will be some kind of - but I would say that whatever we find will | :31:50. | :31:55. | |
be so minuscule as to be fairly irrelevant and will not demonstrate | :31:56. | :31:58. | |
any way enough of a difference between the sexes to show why we | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
have such a big difference. The science isn't 100% there to | :32:04. | :32:06. | |
determine whether it's biology or society. It's legitimate to make the | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
point. He can make whatever point he wants. And not get the sack. I don't | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
care what he believes he's just wrong. No, but this is very | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
important. He wrote this actually largely about how diversity has | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
become an ideology in Google. Hiring policies have been re-organised | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
around Diversity ends rather than hiring people who are best for the | :32:29. | :32:32. | |
job. I think that does no-one a service, certainly not women for | :32:33. | :32:38. | |
whom it is patronising. This guy is now getting absolutely | :32:39. | :32:40. | |
internationally pillaried and hammered for being anti-women. He | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
isn't. He raises an important illiberalism. I'm so sorry - The | :32:45. | :32:50. | |
best person for the job, because Diversity can lead to being the best | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
person for the job. It doesn't guarantee it. We need to leave it. | :32:55. | :32:57. | |
There -- to leave it there. Thanks both | :32:58. | :32:59. | |
very much. The DUP may be the most successful | :33:00. | :33:00. | |
electoral force in Northern Ireland, but in the rest of the UK the party | :33:01. | :33:03. | |
has something of an image problem. It is often seen as stuck | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
in the past, too religiously conservative, and sometimes | :33:08. | :33:09. | |
illiberal, or even bigoted. A party for old people, | :33:10. | :33:12. | |
not the young. So, is that image fair, | :33:13. | :33:17. | |
or simply a reflection of people making too little effort to get | :33:18. | :33:20. | |
to know the DUP and its supporters? Well, Stacey Dooley makes | :33:21. | :33:23. | |
documentaries for BBC Three, which is of course primarily aimed | :33:24. | :33:25. | |
at the younger audiences, and Stacey has been | :33:26. | :33:27. | |
to Northern Ireland to meet some of the party's supporters to get | :33:28. | :33:30. | |
to know the DUP better. Right now, I am on my way | :33:31. | :33:37. | |
to go and have a chat Ruth is a DUP supporter | :33:38. | :33:41. | |
and I think she actually campaigns for them as well, | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
so heavily involved. She's 19, so just | :33:46. | :33:47. | |
started voting really. My dad is Ian Paisley Jr's election | :33:48. | :33:59. | |
agent, so this was in 2010 when Dr Paisley was | :34:00. | :34:13. | |
helping Ian canvas. I agree with all their views, | :34:14. | :34:18. | |
but also things in Northern Ireland, it's more than just | :34:19. | :34:27. | |
like the political views on gay marriage and stuff, | :34:28. | :34:29. | |
it's about, like, keeping Sinn Fein out and they have very real | :34:30. | :34:33. | |
terrorist links in the past. What are your thoughts | :34:34. | :34:36. | |
on gay couples? I believe it's wrong, there's no | :34:37. | :34:38. | |
easy way about that, but... I have been called a homophobe | :34:39. | :34:44. | |
before, which is not true, because I have simply said | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
there that I disagree. Tell me what is so wrong when a man | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
kisses another man or has You can't have sex like, erm, | :34:54. | :34:56. | |
you can't have children with two males, you can't have children | :34:57. | :35:09. | |
with two women. Do you ever feel for Ruth | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
because her opinions are sometimes seen as being very extreme | :35:14. | :35:29. | |
or radical, controversial? Do you think it difficult for Ruth | :35:30. | :35:32. | |
at 19 to sort of stick her heels in? I think it probably is, because I | :35:33. | :35:36. | |
think there's an expectation amongst people in general, | :35:37. | :35:39. | |
and particularly for young people that they should be liberal | :35:40. | :35:41. | |
in their outlook. But I think you have to do what's | :35:42. | :35:44. | |
right, especially if you feel you're standing before God, that | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
you have to be right before him. And I don't think being very | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
conservative with a small C necessarily means that you, | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
you know, there shouldn't be a hatred towards people that | :35:59. | :36:01. | |
you don't agree with. Whereas I feel that's coming | :36:02. | :36:04. | |
the other way at the moment. I think that's the reason | :36:05. | :36:06. | |
possibly while you are here. Because there is that feeling | :36:07. | :36:12. | |
that the DUP are extreme. Jackie and Ruth aren't the only DUP | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
voters I meet who believe the party has been treated unfairly | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
following the deal. Young unionists in Northern Ireland | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
show their loyalty to Britain How do you think the DUP | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
are being perceived back in England? They are being made out | :36:31. | :36:46. | |
as if they are so against gays and they are really against abortion | :36:47. | :36:53. | |
and all, but it is the inner beliefs of the party and that's really, | :36:54. | :36:57. | |
for me anyway, that's Do you blame the DUP for turning | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
the screw on Theresa May? No, I don't blame Arlene Foster | :37:02. | :37:07. | |
for saying, right, you want to play If they were in the DUP's shoes, | :37:08. | :37:10. | |
they would have done 1.5 billion, that will be hopefully | :37:11. | :37:19. | |
poured into your communities. Well, I hope the government stays | :37:20. | :37:25. | |
as long as it can, like. I've been brought up being British, | :37:26. | :37:31. | |
don't know anything else. Where are they, Sinn Fein | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
and you say the others are Catholics and all, | :37:36. | :37:41. | |
they want just to wipe us When they say they want | :37:42. | :37:43. | |
the British out of Ireland, I need to meet the other side | :37:44. | :37:47. | |
that seem so threatening The second largest political party | :37:48. | :37:54. | |
in Northern Ireland is Sinn Fein. I'm meeting Dominic and Tam, | :37:55. | :38:03. | |
two of their supporters, They have said, you know, with every | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
inch of themselves they would never ever in a million years entertain | :38:09. | :38:15. | |
the idea of not being British As far as I'm concerned, | :38:16. | :38:20. | |
a united Ireland is inevitable. And I think the more they sit down | :38:21. | :38:27. | |
and engage about it and actually discuss what it would be | :38:28. | :38:30. | |
like within it rather than a blinkered approach | :38:31. | :38:34. | |
of never, never, never. I don't think it's a pipe dream, | :38:35. | :38:36. | |
I think it's something I definitely It's this faith that | :38:37. | :38:39. | |
Ireland will become united In Protestant areas, | :38:40. | :38:45. | |
they're building bonfires to commemorate a 320-year-old battle | :38:46. | :38:51. | |
won by a Protestant king. I've come to the Cragar Estate to | :38:52. | :38:56. | |
understand more about the DUP vote. Gwen is the community worker | :38:57. | :39:01. | |
who is in charge of safety Let me ask you this, | :39:02. | :39:04. | |
Gwen, do you think... How useful, how helpful do | :39:05. | :39:10. | |
you think it is to put these We are British, we | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
are British subjects. I own a British passport and I am | :39:16. | :39:23. | |
proud to say I'm British. Sinn Fein want the united Ireland, | :39:24. | :39:26. | |
that is the way they brought That is their main aim, and they | :39:27. | :39:29. | |
will do it through any means. I actually believe that we are more | :39:30. | :39:35. | |
British than the English are, Why do so many people | :39:36. | :39:38. | |
vote for the DUP here? We are sort of forced | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
to vote for DUP, bringing Do you agree with everything | :39:43. | :39:44. | |
the DUP stand for? With same-sex marriage | :39:45. | :39:51. | |
and things, we don't care. We have people in here that are gay | :39:52. | :39:55. | |
and we don't have a problem I suppose I came here assuming that | :39:56. | :39:58. | |
I would be spending time with people who were intolerant towards same-sex | :39:59. | :40:07. | |
relationships, same-sex Actually on the ground, | :40:08. | :40:10. | |
so many people here aren't intolerant toward their neighbours, | :40:11. | :40:17. | |
the nationalists. Because the Prime Minister | :40:18. | :40:25. | |
is relying on the DUP, it's hard for her to be | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
seen as truly neutral The danger is that Theresa May's | :40:31. | :40:33. | |
deal with the DUP will deepen That was Stacey Dooley, | :40:34. | :40:42. | |
and a longer version of her BBC Three film, | :40:43. | :40:54. | |
Stacey Dooley Meets DUP Voters, Now, before we go, | :40:55. | :40:58. | |
although we like to think we've been able to provide you with a whole | :40:59. | :41:07. | |
40-minute programme full of serious news, some of our colleagues | :41:08. | :41:10. | |
in other outlets have been, shall we say, struggling | :41:11. | :41:12. | |
with the news drought Here's the News | :41:13. | :41:14. | |
Channel's Simon McCoy. Just bear in mind, it is August. | :41:15. | :41:26. | |
This does not look like a walk in the park. Dog owners and their pets | :41:27. | :41:31. | |
in California have hit the waves in the second annual world dog surfing | :41:32. | :41:34. | |
Championships. Here are the pictures. There's confidence, | :41:35. | :41:41. | |
there's the size of the waves. Some events have big waves, some small. | :41:42. | :41:44. | |
There's style and technique. It's really interesting. The competitors' | :41:45. | :41:52. | |
main challenge is to stay afloat on the board. This is near San | :41:53. | :41:58. | |
Francisco. There are prizes for the best dressed and tandem surfing | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
dogs, the winner being crowned top dog. | :42:04. | :42:07. | |
That's a shame, we've run out of pictures. | :42:08. | :42:10. | |
I would like to have seen the extra pictures. | :42:11. | :42:11. | |
Maybe he should have taken a leaf out of another news anchor's book. | :42:12. | :42:14. | |
What you're about to see is a Channel 4 news exclusive. This is | :42:15. | :42:23. | |
Nutty the squirrel. He's three years old. How about that! That squirrel | :42:24. | :42:34. | |
can water-ski! That's hillarious. Hello, Tuesday is shaping up to be a | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
rather disappointing day again for the greater part of England and | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
Wales. It may not start | :42:43. | :42:43. |