07/08/2017 Newsnight


07/08/2017

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines as Venezuelans respond to comments made by Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn. With Evan Davis.


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Transcript


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Corbyn's Venezuela conundrum - he doesn't want to desert his

:00:00.:00:08.

old friends running the country, but he can't avoid acknowledging

:00:09.:00:11.

In the end, he steered a carefully nuanced in-between line,

:00:12.:00:18.

but the Venezuelan opposition tell us he's got it wrong.

:00:19.:00:24.

Maybe the mothers and fathers of those that have been killed would be

:00:25.:00:32.

willing to speak to Jeremy Corbyn to explain and to tell him what the

:00:33.:00:34.

real situation has been. Justin Gatlin was booed

:00:35.:00:38.

for his success at the World His agent explains why

:00:39.:00:40.

the crowd had got it wrong. 80% of Google software

:00:41.:00:46.

engineers are male. Or a sign that women

:00:47.:00:49.

aren't into programming? There's an argument

:00:50.:00:53.

at Google about it. And we'll ask if it's

:00:54.:00:56.

politically incorrect to even Stacey Dooley meets

:00:57.:01:00.

some its supporters. How helpful do you think it is to

:01:01.:01:14.

put these posters on the bonfire? Because they are our enemies. We

:01:15.:01:17.

belong to Britain. We are British. We are British subjects. I hold a

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British passport and I'm proud to say I'm British.

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We don't know what the Venezuelans think of Jeremy Corbyn,

:01:28.:01:31.

but we do now know what Mr Corbyn thinks about Venezuela.

:01:32.:01:34.

He's back from a holiday in Croatia and was under immediate pressure

:01:35.:01:38.

to condemn the socialist government in Venezuela, having given it warm

:01:39.:01:40.

It's not good to be too supportive of a government arresting political

:01:41.:01:48.

opponents in the dead of night, but Mr Corbyn has a good deal

:01:49.:01:52.

of political capital invested in Nicolas Maduro's Venezuela.

:01:53.:01:55.

So how the big question today, was how he would

:01:56.:01:59.

Many of his colleagues are clear, Maduro is to be condemned.

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What I condemn is the violence that's been done by any side,

:02:04.:02:09.

Violence is not going to solve the issue.

:02:10.:02:13.

The issues of Venezuela are partly structural because not enough has

:02:14.:02:16.

been done to diversify the economy away from oil.

:02:17.:02:19.

That has to be a priority for the future.

:02:20.:02:22.

We also have to recognise there have been effective and serious attempts

:02:23.:02:26.

to reduce poverty in Venezuela and improving literacy

:02:27.:02:29.

and improving the lives of many of the poorest people.

:02:30.:02:35.

Earlier this evening, I spoke to Juan Andres Mejia, founding

:02:36.:02:38.

member and National Director of one of the main Venezuelan opposition

:02:39.:02:42.

I asked whether it is right that both sides are responsible

:02:43.:02:48.

I don't think it's fair. What has happened in the past four months in

:02:49.:03:01.

our country is that you have had the majority of Venezuelans protesting,

:03:02.:03:04.

demanding change, demanding free and fair elections and they have been

:03:05.:03:09.

received by the National Guard and the police with tear gas, with

:03:10.:03:15.

rubber bullets and sometimes too with regular bullets with shot guns.

:03:16.:03:18.

More than 120 people have been killed. According to the

:03:19.:03:22.

Attorney-General, this is the person that was not a supporter of the

:03:23.:03:26.

opposition until recently, she has said that more than 90% of those

:03:27.:03:31.

that have been killed are opposition protesters. Especially young people,

:03:32.:03:39.

between the ages of 20 and 30. There has been violence in Venezuela. We

:03:40.:03:42.

condemn all violence. Its not fair to say it has been on both sides.

:03:43.:03:49.

There is one side that has insisted in protesting peacefully and every

:03:50.:03:53.

time that the police or National Guard appears, it ends with people

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being killed. Just tell us about the opposition and who they are. The

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opposition has evolved since it began in Venezuela. Today you have

:04:05.:04:16.

parties from all ideologies. You have leftist parties, such as Accion

:04:17.:04:25.

Democrata. Such as Popular Will, my own party. And you have centre-right

:04:26.:04:30.

parties. The most important fact is that the opposition now has younger

:04:31.:04:37.

leaders, younger members of Congress who want change for all Venezuelans

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and who believe that this change has to happen within democracy. It is

:04:46.:04:52.

more Democrats and those who wish to change the rules by which we have

:04:53.:04:56.

governed this country for the past 50 years. The socialist experiment

:04:57.:05:02.

in Venezuela has failed and it has failed very badly. The economic and

:05:03.:05:07.

political crisis we have is tremendous. There has never been

:05:08.:05:12.

something like. A lot of people are not eating three times a day. Many

:05:13.:05:23.

people are eating from the garbage. Scarcity of basic goods is clear.

:05:24.:05:29.

For most people who are willing to elect a different president, the

:05:30.:05:33.

struggle nowadays is not between two halves, two parts of the country. It

:05:34.:05:36.

is between the majority of the people who want change and those who

:05:37.:05:40.

refuse to allow it. You're a party of the left, we should be clear.

:05:41.:05:44.

Yeah. Are you saying socialism doesn't work and you've seen that in

:05:45.:05:49.

Venezuela. Excuse me when I speak about socialism in such an easy way,

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because when we say socialism in Venezuela we mean more Communist

:05:56.:05:59.

than anything else. In Venezuela this is not a socialist experiment,

:06:00.:06:07.

to be fair. It's more of a leftist, autocratic experiment. There's no

:06:08.:06:12.

freedom of expression. There is no freedom of speech. You have hundreds

:06:13.:06:17.

of political prisoners in our country. So this is not a very

:06:18.:06:24.

socialist experiment. This is a country where those in power have

:06:25.:06:30.

tremendous benefits. They move around the city of Caracas with

:06:31.:06:36.

bodyguards, in bullet-proof cars. They have become an elite

:06:37.:06:40.

themselves, while the rest of the country has been suffering. This is

:06:41.:06:46.

not a socialist government. This is an elite, call themselves

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socialists, but their interest is staying in power forever. Your party

:06:50.:06:53.

Popular Will, is a member of the socialist international, which

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actually means it is affiliated through that to the Labour Party in

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the United Kingdom. I mean, how important is it that foreign left of

:07:05.:07:09.

centre parties support your side of this argument rather than the Maduro

:07:10.:07:14.

side? It is very important because the government has a strong

:07:15.:07:23.

propaganda team. It is not fair, we don't feel supported when

:07:24.:07:27.

governments around the world present the situation here as if it was a

:07:28.:07:32.

conflict between left and right-wing parties. This is a conflict between

:07:33.:07:37.

democracy and dictatorship. This is a conflict between respecting human

:07:38.:07:39.

rights and violating human rights. This is a conflict between the

:07:40.:07:42.

majority of the people who want change and who want to bring that

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change with elections and between a minority who is willing to do

:07:50.:07:52.

anything to stay in power. What do you think when you see Jeremy Corbyn

:07:53.:07:57.

essentially trying to steer a rather fine line between the two sides in

:07:58.:08:00.

this? What I would say to Jeremy Corbyn is that he really has to know

:08:01.:08:05.

what's going on in our country to be able to make a statement. Violence

:08:06.:08:11.

has not been done by both sides. Violence has been promoted by the

:08:12.:08:16.

government. They have armed paramilitary groups that have taken

:08:17.:08:21.

the lives of hundreds of people in Venezuela. Maybe the mothers and

:08:22.:08:26.

fathers of those that have been killed would be willing to speak to

:08:27.:08:31.

Jeremy Corbyn to explain and to tell him what the real situation has

:08:32.:08:39.

been. People such as a 17-year-old teenager, who went out to the

:08:40.:08:42.

streets to protest because he was convinced that he should have a

:08:43.:08:49.

different future. Other people such as a man killed by a gunshot, shot

:08:50.:08:54.

by a member of the National Guard and all he was trying to do was

:08:55.:08:59.

raising his voice for a different country for democracy. I'm pretty

:09:00.:09:04.

sure the family of these people that have been killed are willing to let

:09:05.:09:09.

Jeremy Corbyn know what the real situation has been and how they have

:09:10.:09:12.

been killed during the past four months. Thank you so much. Thanks

:09:13.:09:17.

for your time tonight. No-one says it's easy

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to make spending decisions in the NHS right now,

:09:20.:09:21.

but among the unpleasant choices being made in parts of the country,

:09:22.:09:24.

are cuts in IVF treatments. The NHS standard - set by NICE,

:09:25.:09:27.

the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence -

:09:28.:09:30.

is that women under 40, unable to conceive for two years,

:09:31.:09:33.

should be offered three cycles But, the group Fertility Network UK

:09:34.:09:36.

has found that almost half the areas in England have decided to breech

:09:37.:09:46.

that standard - cutting the three cycles to two or one

:09:47.:09:48.

or none, in some cases. With no NHS IVF, the only option

:09:49.:09:52.

is then to go private. Elaine Dunkley has been to Bristol,

:09:53.:10:00.

where they are consulting on plans This baby is Ellie's dream come

:10:01.:10:15.

true. At 39 and after years of trying to conceive, Ellie's first

:10:16.:10:19.

round of IVF was successful. Ellie was forced to go private and says

:10:20.:10:23.

the system is unfair for those who can't afford to pay. We decided to

:10:24.:10:27.

go private because I was refused by the NHS because I had an early

:10:28.:10:31.

miscarriage. They told me I was subfertile rather than infertile.

:10:32.:10:34.

They wouldn't fund it. Not being able to have a baby was horrendous.

:10:35.:10:39.

I know not all people this is what they want. For me, it was my world.

:10:40.:10:42.

It was everything I wanted. Then to be turned down by the NHS and told

:10:43.:10:47.

they weren't going to help me was absolutely devastating. It's a lot

:10:48.:10:50.

of money. For a lot of people that money isn't available. I was really

:10:51.:10:54.

fortunate that my family was able to help me. But I know not everybody is

:10:55.:10:58.

in that situation. If we have to go for a second round of IVF, we will

:10:59.:11:02.

have to remortgage the house or get a loan. Under guidance by NICE,

:11:03.:11:10.

those aged under 40 with fertility problems should be offered up to

:11:11.:11:14.

three cycles of IVF. Those aged between 40 and 42 should be offered

:11:15.:11:18.

one, if they meet a certain criteria. But this doesn't always

:11:19.:11:23.

happen. A cycle of IVF can cost in excess of ?3,000. Decisions on who

:11:24.:11:28.

is eligible are taken by local clinical commissioning groups. It's

:11:29.:11:31.

becoming a postcode lottery because of the way we commission in the UK.

:11:32.:11:35.

It doesn't have to be in that way, because we have NHS England for

:11:36.:11:39.

example that has a national programme for Jen itics associated

:11:40.:11:43.

with IVF. The commissioning groups are able to not only decide whether

:11:44.:11:50.

they will fund IVF but to provide restrictive elability criteria if

:11:51.:11:54.

they do fund it. Very few people get access to IVF that actually require

:11:55.:11:58.

it. Some describe it as unethical, unfair and discriminatory, but

:11:59.:12:02.

ultimately it comes down to cost and whether the NHS should be funding

:12:03.:12:05.

the desire to become a parent when money is needed in so many other

:12:06.:12:10.

areas. Five areas have now stopped offering IVF. Since the beginning of

:12:11.:12:14.

this year, the number of cycles women are entitled to has been

:12:15.:12:18.

reduced by 12 clinical commissioning groups. And in September, these

:12:19.:12:22.

areas will decide on whether IVF should be restricted to women who

:12:23.:12:27.

are 30 to 35, those most likely to conceive with treatment. One of

:12:28.:12:34.

those areas is in Bristol, the place where the world's first test tube

:12:35.:12:41.

baby was born. Mr Acardi has helped thousands conceive and doesn't

:12:42.:12:43.

believe age should be the only factor. Success rates are very

:12:44.:12:49.

reasonable until the age of 42. So yes, one can take an individual

:12:50.:12:53.

approach and clinics do that all the time. Remember, fertility,

:12:54.:12:59.

infertility itself is classified as a disease. That means there are some

:13:00.:13:03.

couples and some people where without help there is absolutely no

:13:04.:13:08.

way they will be able to achieve a pregnancy. Therefore, they need

:13:09.:13:15.

medical help. Every day the NHS is forced to make difficult decisions

:13:16.:13:20.

over what it can and can't afford. This is little consolation to those

:13:21.:13:24.

who feel time and funding is against them.

:13:25.:13:29.

It's really unfair that people are treated differently across the

:13:30.:13:32.

country, you've got the postcode lottery. I can understand there's

:13:33.:13:36.

funding issues and they need to find ways to restrict it, I think the way

:13:37.:13:37.

they're doing it is really unfair. Well, now we are joined

:13:38.:13:43.

by Professor Robert Winston, a world expert in fertility and one

:13:44.:13:46.

of the early pioneers of IVF, also the freelance journalist

:13:47.:13:49.

Sirena Bergman, who has written in the Independent today that IVF

:13:50.:13:51.

is costly and ineffective and its time to stop offering it

:13:52.:13:54.

on the NHS. You would argue that there shouldn't

:13:55.:14:07.

be a postcode lottery and the NHS should pay. Thank you for putting my

:14:08.:14:11.

argument for me. That's helpful. Explain why. I agree with that. If

:14:12.:14:15.

we have a National Health Service it has to be national. At the moment we

:14:16.:14:18.

have local Health Services because of the reforms in the Health

:14:19.:14:24.

Service. That leads to inequality, inequity. What's the right level to

:14:25.:14:29.

pay? Is it what NICE have specified, three for women at this age? Three

:14:30.:14:34.

cycles is reasonable. There are a number of countries in Europe that

:14:35.:14:38.

offer free IVF and who have a similar cost for their Health

:14:39.:14:41.

Service that we do. They are investing the same amount. It's not

:14:42.:14:45.

just shortage of money. It is a politically taken decision

:14:46.:14:47.

essentially by most of the commissioners. Why did you write

:14:48.:14:50.

that this shouldn't be a priority for the NHS? I think it's something

:14:51.:14:55.

that I feel very strongly about. The NHS is woefully underfunded. We all

:14:56.:15:00.

know that. The NHS exists to keep us healthy. IVF isn't a cure to an

:15:01.:15:04.

illness. It's a solution for people who feel they're not achieving their

:15:05.:15:08.

life goals. I don't think that is the responsibility of the NHS.

:15:09.:15:16.

Have you had children? I don't see how that's relevant. It is very

:15:17.:15:25.

relevant. You don't have to answer the question and I don't mean to be

:15:26.:15:31.

discourteous but I have published hundreds of scientific papers and

:15:32.:15:35.

you have kindly called me a pioneer, but of my achievements my three

:15:36.:15:40.

children are what changed my life because they are the Next Generation

:15:41.:15:44.

and that's what we can contribute to. People who are infertile suffer

:15:45.:15:49.

hugely, they suffer the pain just the same as someone with an

:15:50.:15:55.

arthritic hip. This is not being fully understood and you should know

:15:56.:16:03.

better than that, I think. Sirena, I'm not going to ask whether you

:16:04.:16:06.

have had kids but I'm interested to know whether you accept the feelings

:16:07.:16:10.

people have about whether they can have kids or not are as big to them

:16:11.:16:16.

as they may be for some of the other things the NHS spends money on.

:16:17.:16:20.

Absolutely, the feelings for the individual are incredibly strong and

:16:21.:16:23.

my heart goes out to people who cannot conceive naturally and want

:16:24.:16:28.

to. But we consider the best way to become a parent is by conceiving

:16:29.:16:38.

naturally and giving birth to a child, there are actually a huge

:16:39.:16:40.

amount of options for people who cannot conceive and by putting so

:16:41.:16:42.

much money into IVF and presenting it as the number one auction are not

:16:43.:16:50.

giving alternatives. There is no children shortage. I'm afraid

:16:51.:16:56.

adoption is not a treatment for infertility. Infertility is a

:16:57.:16:59.

symptom of a disease and there are at least 100 different causes. At

:17:00.:17:09.

the moment there is a message -- massive wastage of money. Moreover,

:17:10.:17:16.

IVF is not being costed properly because in some authorities it costs

:17:17.:17:22.

?1000, in others in this country it costs ?6,000 so until the NHS gets

:17:23.:17:26.

its act in order there is a massive problem. The problem is costing in

:17:27.:17:31.

the NHS is completely random. It is a big issue. But Sirena raises the

:17:32.:17:41.

point, why not encourage people to adopt? Because there are less than

:17:42.:17:46.

1000 babies that can be adopted each year and people don't necessarily

:17:47.:17:51.

want to adopt a child that might have had very adverse experiences

:17:52.:17:54.

early in life. Most of the children you are referring to have been in

:17:55.:17:59.

care for years and you cannot adopt them early in life. I think it is a

:18:00.:18:04.

brave person who is prepared to adopt somebody under those

:18:05.:18:13.

circumstances. What is the point of Nice? May come up with a standard,

:18:14.:18:21.

then the authorities go their own way and ignore it. I do think that

:18:22.:18:26.

is a problem. You should know if you are going to be GP you will receive

:18:27.:18:32.

the same care at the point of NHS. I also think it is telling that areas

:18:33.:18:38.

are making these difficult choices, it doesn't reflect well but they

:18:39.:18:42.

know they have to do it because we are facing such a huge crisis. Very

:18:43.:18:48.

briefly, if you had to cut IVF services would you cut the age

:18:49.:18:54.

threshold or the number of cycles? I would do IVF when it is really

:18:55.:19:00.

needed, and at the moment nearly half are unnecessary. The work we

:19:01.:19:03.

are doing now, the research we are doing can reduce the cost and I

:19:04.:19:09.

think that is urgently needed. OK, we will leave it there. Thank you,

:19:10.:19:11.

both. Justin Gatlin won the 100m

:19:12.:19:13.

at the World Athletics If you watched, you could probably

:19:14.:19:15.

tell the crowd was not happy. The booing undoubtedly reflected

:19:16.:19:20.

the fact that Gatlin has served two doping bans and the feeling that,

:19:21.:19:23.

as a result, it was unfortunate that he beat Usain Bolt

:19:24.:19:26.

in this showcase event. But open-mindedness is a virtue,

:19:27.:19:28.

and there are many in the athletics business who think that

:19:29.:19:31.

Justin Gatlin deserves a lot more Among them is Gatlin's

:19:32.:19:33.

agent, Renaldo Nehemiah. I spoke to him earlier,

:19:34.:19:37.

and he told me about The first doping offence happened

:19:38.:19:51.

when Justin Gatlin was a freshman at the University of Tennessee, taking

:19:52.:19:55.

out a role for attention deficit disorder. They recognised he wasn't

:19:56.:20:03.

trying but because of the rulings he was suspended for a year. They

:20:04.:20:10.

didn't want it to reflect on his record, it was in the record that

:20:11.:20:15.

they didn't want it to reflect as a doping offence or that he was

:20:16.:20:20.

doping. The next second offence was some type of cream applied to his

:20:21.:20:26.

skin in early April Spring meeting back in 2006. But he did claim he

:20:27.:20:32.

was effectively sabotaged by a therapist who was actually trying to

:20:33.:20:36.

damage his career because they were in dispute with the management,

:20:37.:20:42.

correct? He had fired that massage therapist the previous fall, against

:20:43.:20:49.

my better judgment we couldn't find any other physios that we could

:20:50.:20:54.

afford at that time. Can you see why the crowds have great anger at

:20:55.:21:00.

people who have doping offences? I can see it back in 2010 when he

:21:01.:21:06.

first returned, 2011, when he was running again, possibly even as

:21:07.:21:14.

early as 2012. He ran in the London Olympic Stadium and won the bronze

:21:15.:21:19.

medal and no one said a word. No one said a word in 2013, 2014 or even

:21:20.:21:28.

2015. Then suddenly when he started to challenge Usain Bolt when nobody

:21:29.:21:31.

else could challenge him it became an issue. I don't have a problem

:21:32.:21:35.

with everyone feeling the same way about anti-doping but let's be

:21:36.:21:39.

honest, Justin Gatlin is not the only athlete who has tested

:21:40.:21:44.

positive. He didn't create doping and there will be others after him.

:21:45.:21:49.

It is unfair. There will be others in the stadium this week that have

:21:50.:21:53.

come off doping offences. I cannot speak because they are not winning

:21:54.:21:59.

but he has done his time, made by the rules, the IAAF reinstated him

:22:00.:22:04.

and we should accept that. To put the narrative out that it is just

:22:05.:22:09.

Justin Gatlin and he's the bad guy, it is not fair, it is inhumane, it

:22:10.:22:15.

is not sportsmanlike. How did he feel after he wins the 100m and he's

:22:16.:22:22.

booed? I had prepared him prior to this. We had been talking about a

:22:23.:22:28.

year and a half prior to that not everyone will accept you and you

:22:29.:22:32.

cannot please everyone. He who hasn't done wrong, and he without

:22:33.:22:39.

sin should cast the first stone. You cannot control the viewpoints of

:22:40.:22:44.

anyone, but he has conducted himself in a professional manner. Here is

:22:45.:22:49.

the icing on the cake. He gave Usain Bolt the greatest respect by bowing

:22:50.:23:01.

to him and Usain Bolt hugged him. He has no problem with Justin Gatlin,

:23:02.:23:06.

he's a great competitor, so if it's good for Usain Bolt it should be

:23:07.:23:14.

good for everyone else. Usain Bolt in his graciousness at published

:23:15.:23:18.

that in the press conference. I'm OK with that. If the King, the legend

:23:19.:23:24.

is OK with it, we all should be. What do you think though of the

:23:25.:23:27.

professional commentators, the media, some of those involved in

:23:28.:23:33.

international athletics, even Sebastien Coe and Steve Cram who

:23:34.:23:37.

have taken a very hard line on Justin Gatlin and have done a lot to

:23:38.:23:43.

set opinion about him? Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I take

:23:44.:23:49.

offence to Lord Coe, he's part of the IAAF who set the rules and

:23:50.:23:53.

punishments, and when you do that you are supposed to be reinstated

:23:54.:24:01.

which means athletes who have offended have, and you don't allow

:24:02.:24:12.

them in and still condemned them. We are talking Post 11 years after the

:24:13.:24:19.

ban. Other sports release their own and move past it. I don't have a

:24:20.:24:23.

problem with anyone having any issue with doping, I don't condone it but

:24:24.:24:29.

I don't think Justin Gatlin is the poster child for it. That is fact,

:24:30.:24:34.

and I will always say that. Thank you so much for making that case.

:24:35.:24:38.

An internal memo written by a male employee at Google has caused

:24:39.:24:41.

The author set out the view that some of the gender gap at Google,

:24:42.:24:46.

for example in the numbers of men and women employed as software

:24:47.:24:49.

engineers, may not be as a result of sex discrimination,

:24:50.:24:51.

but simply as a result of biological differences in the way skills

:24:52.:24:54.

and characteristics are distributed between the sexes.

:24:55.:24:55.

His memo has found its way into the public domain

:24:56.:24:58.

and if you want to read it, you can google it obviously, and

:24:59.:25:01.

The memo argues women and men are different.

:25:02.:25:31.

So the main point... Now the writer is at pains to point out you cannot

:25:32.:25:46.

stereotype based on gender but his sharpest critique is of the kind of

:25:47.:25:50.

corporate diversity that Google promotes.

:25:51.:26:09.

Which brings us to the response of Danielle Brown, Google's

:26:10.:26:13.

new head of Diversity, Integrity and Governance.

:26:14.:26:15.

She chose not to take on the argument -

:26:16.:26:17.

Well, the memo raises two questions - one is whether the author

:26:18.:26:28.

is right that genders differ in the distribution of attributes.

:26:29.:26:31.

But the other question is whether this should be

:26:32.:26:33.

Is there an authoritarian liberalism, that tries

:26:34.:26:41.

With me are the writer and campaigner Caroline Criado-Perez

:26:42.:26:48.

and the Director of the Institute of Ideas, Claire Fox.

:26:49.:26:52.

Caroline, do you think it is possible the writer is correct to

:26:53.:26:58.

say the reason there are fewer women programmers is because they are not

:26:59.:27:03.

as into programming? There is no evidence to suggest this is a result

:27:04.:27:07.

of biological difference. The idea that having a uterus makes me less

:27:08.:27:12.

predisposed to programming as opposed to the way we bring up boys

:27:13.:27:16.

and girls, for which there is a lot of evidence. I found it interesting

:27:17.:27:23.

reading his blog how much emphasis he put on facts and let's be

:27:24.:27:29.

rational about this and yet provided no citations or evidence. Is it

:27:30.:27:34.

possible he is right? There's no evidence he cites, he says it makes

:27:35.:27:37.

evolutionary sense and says it is true across different cultures...

:27:38.:27:43.

When you look at the actual evidence, so for example there is

:27:44.:27:48.

plenty of evidence showing if you submit two scientific CV is, one

:27:49.:27:52.

with a male name and a female name, exactly the same other than that,

:27:53.:27:57.

the male name gets employed and gets given a higher salary. He makes

:27:58.:28:02.

claims about women not negotiating, actually evidence shows women do

:28:03.:28:08.

negotiate but get penalised for it. This guy is perfectly entitled to

:28:09.:28:12.

his opinion, it's just that I have no respect for it because it's not

:28:13.:28:16.

based on evidence. On the substance of the issue, do you think he has a

:28:17.:28:22.

point or not? I don't agree with his point, but one substantial point he

:28:23.:28:26.

makes which I'm more sympathetic to his he says the reason why there are

:28:27.:28:31.

not as many female programmers for example is not because of sexism in

:28:32.:28:35.

many companies, and I am sympathetic to that because everywhere I look,

:28:36.:28:41.

and there is evidence for this of course, and every institution is

:28:42.:28:44.

bending over backwards to try to do something about diversity and gender

:28:45.:28:48.

imbalance. There is something else going on. The other thing is it's

:28:49.:28:54.

quite interesting because he spoke about psychological differences as

:28:55.:28:59.

well. This is an argument I have with many contemporary feminists,

:29:00.:29:02.

I'm not saying you, but they say what we need is more female MPs and

:29:03.:29:07.

more females on boards because that will lead to a softer, less

:29:08.:29:12.

aggressive atmosphere in Parliament. I think that implies there is some

:29:13.:29:17.

kind of innate femininity that makes you a nicer person so that identity

:29:18.:29:22.

point of what he says is very familiar to us. When it is said by

:29:23.:29:27.

feminists it's greeted as an interesting thought, when it is said

:29:28.:29:33.

by this guy, it is let on, where is your evidence? To be fair to

:29:34.:29:37.

feminists, there is disagreement within feminism and evidence

:29:38.:29:42.

suggests there isn't an innate... There is a fantastic book written by

:29:43.:29:48.

this actually. Studies continue to accumulate showing educated women in

:29:49.:29:52.

industrial democracies when they get choice they opt for socially

:29:53.:29:58.

meaningful work and fewer hours. Women do 75% of the underpaid care

:29:59.:30:02.

and governments to provide good childcare.

:30:03.:30:06.

We might have women choosing for reasons that society organises,

:30:07.:30:12.

doesn't give you enough child care or whatever the reasons, it's

:30:13.:30:15.

society that might mean that women choose to work less hours and so on.

:30:16.:30:20.

That means that they therefore might not be choosing to do things with

:30:21.:30:25.

long hours. It's not Google the sexist company. How free is that

:30:26.:30:30.

choice? I know, but the point... Claire's point is it wouldn't be

:30:31.:30:35.

Google's fault. I'm not suggesting that Google is deliberately - This

:30:36.:30:38.

guy is making the point that's what is said. A great story last year. A

:30:39.:30:44.

point made about a very, very bright young daughter who was equally good

:30:45.:30:48.

as sciences as the arts. She chose to do the arts, she was treated as

:30:49.:30:54.

though she was betraying the sifterhood because she wouldn't --

:30:55.:30:59.

sisterhood because she wouldn't take up stem subjects. The important

:31:00.:31:02.

thing is that women are going to be the engineers of the future, they

:31:03.:31:05.

say. Brilliant. I love things like code first girls an the work they

:31:06.:31:08.

do. I like all that stuff. But I think it has to be that they choose.

:31:09.:31:13.

There is a danger, this is what this guy argues, that what happens is

:31:14.:31:17.

that women who don't choose to take up stem issues get accused of not

:31:18.:31:21.

being pioneers in the science and technology issues. Do you, would you

:31:22.:31:27.

say that - you know people draw generalisations about left and right

:31:28.:31:31.

handed people. Studies will say left handed people are better at maths,

:31:32.:31:35.

because of right brain dominance. Do you reject all this afternoon and

:31:36.:31:40.

just think it's nonsense? I mean, you know, I'm not going to be

:31:41.:31:44.

completely dogmatic about it and say that there is no way in any future

:31:45.:31:49.

there will be some kind of - but I would say that whatever we find will

:31:50.:31:55.

be so minuscule as to be fairly irrelevant and will not demonstrate

:31:56.:31:58.

any way enough of a difference between the sexes to show why we

:31:59.:32:03.

have such a big difference. The science isn't 100% there to

:32:04.:32:06.

determine whether it's biology or society. It's legitimate to make the

:32:07.:32:11.

point. He can make whatever point he wants. And not get the sack. I don't

:32:12.:32:15.

care what he believes he's just wrong. No, but this is very

:32:16.:32:20.

important. He wrote this actually largely about how diversity has

:32:21.:32:24.

become an ideology in Google. Hiring policies have been re-organised

:32:25.:32:28.

around Diversity ends rather than hiring people who are best for the

:32:29.:32:32.

job. I think that does no-one a service, certainly not women for

:32:33.:32:38.

whom it is patronising. This guy is now getting absolutely

:32:39.:32:40.

internationally pillaried and hammered for being anti-women. He

:32:41.:32:44.

isn't. He raises an important illiberalism. I'm so sorry - The

:32:45.:32:50.

best person for the job, because Diversity can lead to being the best

:32:51.:32:54.

person for the job. It doesn't guarantee it. We need to leave it.

:32:55.:32:57.

There -- to leave it there. Thanks both

:32:58.:32:59.

very much. The DUP may be the most successful

:33:00.:33:00.

electoral force in Northern Ireland, but in the rest of the UK the party

:33:01.:33:03.

has something of an image problem. It is often seen as stuck

:33:04.:33:07.

in the past, too religiously conservative, and sometimes

:33:08.:33:09.

illiberal, or even bigoted. A party for old people,

:33:10.:33:12.

not the young. So, is that image fair,

:33:13.:33:17.

or simply a reflection of people making too little effort to get

:33:18.:33:20.

to know the DUP and its supporters? Well, Stacey Dooley makes

:33:21.:33:23.

documentaries for BBC Three, which is of course primarily aimed

:33:24.:33:25.

at the younger audiences, and Stacey has been

:33:26.:33:27.

to Northern Ireland to meet some of the party's supporters to get

:33:28.:33:30.

to know the DUP better. Right now, I am on my way

:33:31.:33:37.

to go and have a chat Ruth is a DUP supporter

:33:38.:33:41.

and I think she actually campaigns for them as well,

:33:42.:33:45.

so heavily involved. She's 19, so just

:33:46.:33:47.

started voting really. My dad is Ian Paisley Jr's election

:33:48.:33:59.

agent, so this was in 2010 when Dr Paisley was

:34:00.:34:13.

helping Ian canvas. I agree with all their views,

:34:14.:34:18.

but also things in Northern Ireland, it's more than just

:34:19.:34:27.

like the political views on gay marriage and stuff,

:34:28.:34:29.

it's about, like, keeping Sinn Fein out and they have very real

:34:30.:34:33.

terrorist links in the past. What are your thoughts

:34:34.:34:36.

on gay couples? I believe it's wrong, there's no

:34:37.:34:38.

easy way about that, but... I have been called a homophobe

:34:39.:34:44.

before, which is not true, because I have simply said

:34:45.:34:49.

there that I disagree. Tell me what is so wrong when a man

:34:50.:34:53.

kisses another man or has You can't have sex like, erm,

:34:54.:34:56.

you can't have children with two males, you can't have children

:34:57.:35:09.

with two women. Do you ever feel for Ruth

:35:10.:35:13.

because her opinions are sometimes seen as being very extreme

:35:14.:35:29.

or radical, controversial? Do you think it difficult for Ruth

:35:30.:35:32.

at 19 to sort of stick her heels in? I think it probably is, because I

:35:33.:35:36.

think there's an expectation amongst people in general,

:35:37.:35:39.

and particularly for young people that they should be liberal

:35:40.:35:41.

in their outlook. But I think you have to do what's

:35:42.:35:44.

right, especially if you feel you're standing before God, that

:35:45.:35:48.

you have to be right before him. And I don't think being very

:35:49.:35:53.

conservative with a small C necessarily means that you,

:35:54.:35:58.

you know, there shouldn't be a hatred towards people that

:35:59.:36:01.

you don't agree with. Whereas I feel that's coming

:36:02.:36:04.

the other way at the moment. I think that's the reason

:36:05.:36:06.

possibly while you are here. Because there is that feeling

:36:07.:36:12.

that the DUP are extreme. Jackie and Ruth aren't the only DUP

:36:13.:36:17.

voters I meet who believe the party has been treated unfairly

:36:18.:36:21.

following the deal. Young unionists in Northern Ireland

:36:22.:36:26.

show their loyalty to Britain How do you think the DUP

:36:27.:36:30.

are being perceived back in England? They are being made out

:36:31.:36:46.

as if they are so against gays and they are really against abortion

:36:47.:36:53.

and all, but it is the inner beliefs of the party and that's really,

:36:54.:36:57.

for me anyway, that's Do you blame the DUP for turning

:36:58.:37:01.

the screw on Theresa May? No, I don't blame Arlene Foster

:37:02.:37:07.

for saying, right, you want to play If they were in the DUP's shoes,

:37:08.:37:10.

they would have done 1.5 billion, that will be hopefully

:37:11.:37:19.

poured into your communities. Well, I hope the government stays

:37:20.:37:25.

as long as it can, like. I've been brought up being British,

:37:26.:37:31.

don't know anything else. Where are they, Sinn Fein

:37:32.:37:35.

and you say the others are Catholics and all,

:37:36.:37:41.

they want just to wipe us When they say they want

:37:42.:37:43.

the British out of Ireland, I need to meet the other side

:37:44.:37:47.

that seem so threatening The second largest political party

:37:48.:37:54.

in Northern Ireland is Sinn Fein. I'm meeting Dominic and Tam,

:37:55.:38:03.

two of their supporters, They have said, you know, with every

:38:04.:38:08.

inch of themselves they would never ever in a million years entertain

:38:09.:38:15.

the idea of not being British As far as I'm concerned,

:38:16.:38:20.

a united Ireland is inevitable. And I think the more they sit down

:38:21.:38:27.

and engage about it and actually discuss what it would be

:38:28.:38:30.

like within it rather than a blinkered approach

:38:31.:38:34.

of never, never, never. I don't think it's a pipe dream,

:38:35.:38:36.

I think it's something I definitely It's this faith that

:38:37.:38:39.

Ireland will become united In Protestant areas,

:38:40.:38:45.

they're building bonfires to commemorate a 320-year-old battle

:38:46.:38:51.

won by a Protestant king. I've come to the Cragar Estate to

:38:52.:38:56.

understand more about the DUP vote. Gwen is the community worker

:38:57.:39:01.

who is in charge of safety Let me ask you this,

:39:02.:39:04.

Gwen, do you think... How useful, how helpful do

:39:05.:39:10.

you think it is to put these We are British, we

:39:11.:39:15.

are British subjects. I own a British passport and I am

:39:16.:39:23.

proud to say I'm British. Sinn Fein want the united Ireland,

:39:24.:39:26.

that is the way they brought That is their main aim, and they

:39:27.:39:29.

will do it through any means. I actually believe that we are more

:39:30.:39:35.

British than the English are, Why do so many people

:39:36.:39:38.

vote for the DUP here? We are sort of forced

:39:39.:39:42.

to vote for DUP, bringing Do you agree with everything

:39:43.:39:44.

the DUP stand for? With same-sex marriage

:39:45.:39:51.

and things, we don't care. We have people in here that are gay

:39:52.:39:55.

and we don't have a problem I suppose I came here assuming that

:39:56.:39:58.

I would be spending time with people who were intolerant towards same-sex

:39:59.:40:07.

relationships, same-sex Actually on the ground,

:40:08.:40:10.

so many people here aren't intolerant toward their neighbours,

:40:11.:40:17.

the nationalists. Because the Prime Minister

:40:18.:40:25.

is relying on the DUP, it's hard for her to be

:40:26.:40:30.

seen as truly neutral The danger is that Theresa May's

:40:31.:40:33.

deal with the DUP will deepen That was Stacey Dooley,

:40:34.:40:42.

and a longer version of her BBC Three film,

:40:43.:40:54.

Stacey Dooley Meets DUP Voters, Now, before we go,

:40:55.:40:58.

although we like to think we've been able to provide you with a whole

:40:59.:41:07.

40-minute programme full of serious news, some of our colleagues

:41:08.:41:10.

in other outlets have been, shall we say, struggling

:41:11.:41:12.

with the news drought Here's the News

:41:13.:41:14.

Channel's Simon McCoy. Just bear in mind, it is August.

:41:15.:41:26.

This does not look like a walk in the park. Dog owners and their pets

:41:27.:41:31.

in California have hit the waves in the second annual world dog surfing

:41:32.:41:34.

Championships. Here are the pictures. There's confidence,

:41:35.:41:41.

there's the size of the waves. Some events have big waves, some small.

:41:42.:41:44.

There's style and technique. It's really interesting. The competitors'

:41:45.:41:52.

main challenge is to stay afloat on the board. This is near San

:41:53.:41:58.

Francisco. There are prizes for the best dressed and tandem surfing

:41:59.:42:03.

dogs, the winner being crowned top dog.

:42:04.:42:07.

That's a shame, we've run out of pictures.

:42:08.:42:10.

I would like to have seen the extra pictures.

:42:11.:42:11.

Maybe he should have taken a leaf out of another news anchor's book.

:42:12.:42:14.

What you're about to see is a Channel 4 news exclusive. This is

:42:15.:42:23.

Nutty the squirrel. He's three years old. How about that! That squirrel

:42:24.:42:34.

can water-ski! That's hillarious. Hello, Tuesday is shaping up to be a

:42:35.:42:38.

rather disappointing day again for the greater part of England and

:42:39.:42:42.

Wales. It may not start

:42:43.:42:43.

Venezuelans respond to comments made by Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn. Plus Justin Gatlin's agent on doping, the IVF postcode lottery, Google's diversity memo, and Stacey Dooley on the DUP. With Evan Davis.