11/08/2017 Newsnight


11/08/2017

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Or if he does anything with respect to Guam, or any place else

:00:00.:00:12.

that's an American territory, or an American ally,

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he will truly regret it, and he will regret it fast.

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The North Korean nuclear crisis keeps roiling away,

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Is all of this making the actual use of nuclear weapons -

:00:25.:00:31.

for so long unthinkable - a real possibility?

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We speak to the man who advised Obama

:00:37.:00:38.

Acid attacks in the UK have more than doubled in three years.

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We've seen it on the streets, thieves on mopeds

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throwing acid at people, now it's happening in people's homes.

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He pulled the bottle out, squeezed acid on my face,

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This man was attacked with acid two and a half years ago.

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And, the green innovation staving off desertification

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I campaign for human rights in my homeland.

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In a generation there has been a catastrophic change

:01:32.:01:34.

Korea and its surrounding region are in a state of high

:01:35.:01:47.

President Trump this morning tweeted that US military options

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North Korea maintains that it intends soon to fire four missiles

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in the direction of Guam, with its American base.

:02:04.:02:07.

But we're also hearing moderating voices.

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James Mattis, the US defence secretary, has stressed that the US

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is dealing with the North Korean threat by diplomatic means.

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And it emerged today that talks are actively taking place

:02:14.:02:17.

between President Trump's Korea envoy and a senior North Korean

:02:18.:02:24.

official at the United Nations in New York.

:02:25.:02:30.

But there are bigger issues here that won't go away.

:02:31.:02:43.

At the end of a week of high bluster, I've been looking

:02:44.:02:46.

into the question of whether the use of nuclear weapons is genuinely

:02:47.:02:49.

There's a real chance of military action between nuclear armed

:02:50.:03:09.

It also comes at a time when many experts feel nuclear war

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During the Cold War, it would have been the soviet union

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and the United States, both with thousands of nuclear

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warheads and God forbid if they'd gone to war,

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the whole planet could have been destroyed.

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Now, if you had, and we must desperately try to prevent one,

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if you had the use of nuclear weapons, either North Korea, India,

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Pakistan or the Middle East, disastrous for these regions,

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but compared to the Cold War, the risks at the time

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of the Cuban missile crisis, it wouldn't threaten the very

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What Korea reminds us of is proliferation and the more

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widespread these weapons are, the greater the scope

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Pakistan and Israel are each believed to have more nuclear

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India has them too and Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria and Libya

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are all believed to have had nuclear weapons programmes,

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The next threat is what experts call lowering the nuclear threshold.

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That means to some, their use is becoming more thinkable,

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in circumstances short of global nuclear war.

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Recent Russian exercises reportedly involved a small scale

:04:45.:04:47.

use of nuclear weapons against European countries.

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In the US, meanwhile, Donald Trump hinted on campaign,

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that they might be used against the Islamic State group.

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Were a conventional conflict to happen again, where North Korea

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could probably inflict a lot of damage, it certainly

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wouldn't be able to prevail in a straightforward,

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Which is where nuclear weapons come in for North Korea in part,

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because those weapons give North Korea what we would call

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Even if wiser heads prevail, what is the scope for

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Several senior Cold War statesman campaign on this issue,

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highlighting concerns about computer glitches or cyber attacks

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And if all that isn't worrying enough, there's the question

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of whether some countries might have cut conventional forces to such

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a degree, that they have few other options.

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Some countries that pursue nuclear weapons, pursue them

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because they are conventionally inferior to their adversaries.

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So nuclear weapons in a conflict scenario might come into play much

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earlier because their incentives to keep the conflict conventional,

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A stable nuclear balance, like the Cold War or the India,

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Pakistan situation is underpinned by large conventional forces.

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That's the anti-imperialist case for proliferation,

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if you like, that buttressed by other forces and

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rational leadership, it can stabilise regions.

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In the case of India and Pakistan, what has happened,

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and it is disturbing and uncomfortable to acknowledge

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They had a real wars three or four times before they both

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And since then that has acted as a discipline, as a constraint.

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That's perhaps the biggest military unknown in this present crisis.

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The US could mount strikes no doubt, but Kim Jong-un has a wide variety

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of retaliatory options, from massive conventional

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attacks to chemical, biological and nuclear weapons.

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No wonder key allies from South Korea to Australia are worried.

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He was the White House Coordinator for Arms Control under

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President Obama and he's now at Harvard's Kennedy

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We will look at some of those big issues on the on thinkable in a

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moment, but let's start off with North Korea, the issue of the

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moment. You have been dealing with this on and off for decades. Where

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do you rank this situation right now, how serious? I continue to

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think the risk of actual war is low because nobody would benefit from

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it. For North Korea, it would be fatal and for the US and its allies,

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it would be costly. But we are seeing posturing and I hope it is a

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prelude to eventually resuming negotiations. A lot will depend on

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Kim Jong-un's calculations. He is demonstrating long-range missile

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capability, but the cost has been more serious economic sanctions,

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which the Chinese have been as serious to support. At some point

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when Kim Jong-un decides he can come back to the bargaining table with a

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strong position and look to see what he can get in return in return for

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accepting a freeze on his nuclear return. We are not there yet, Kim

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Jong-un of thing he cannot be intimidated by the Security Council.

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So I think we will see another round of missile tests but I think they

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will be short range tests. It would be extremely provocative? It would,

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but at the same time with the Trump administration, they are trying to

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manoeuvre towards a resumption of diplomacy. Rex Tillerson has said if

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Kim Jong-un would just pours his testing programme, the US is

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prepared to open talks. We know there are low-level talks going on

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between the State Department and North Koreans and New York. You were

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part of the conversation in the Obama White House. Iran was a big

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priority, there were many other things going on, to what extent do

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you think it is fair to say the North Korean was pushed onto the

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back burner under Obama? The Obama administration took several runs at

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an effort to negotiate with North Korea and they all ended unhappily.

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The first run ended after the sinking of a South Korean vessel and

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the second ended after a league date agreement in February 2012, where

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the US provided humanitarian assistance and the North Koreans

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agreed to suspend testing and freeze their nuclear programme but then Kim

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Jong-un violated the agreement three weeks after it was done. So the

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conclusion was there was no valley in talking to North Korea until more

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luggage was built up. The testing continued and unchecked? You have

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seen two processes happening at the same time. 1-0 has accelerated his

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testing programme and the sanctions have begun to build up. You

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mentioned the likelihood of reverting to the diplomatic to

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approach, you quoted Rex Tillerson, but how do we read the statements

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from President Trump? The others all seemed to be behaving like the

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Washington figures, like yourself that we are used to, but this is

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different, is it dangerous in itself? In substance, Trump is not

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saying anything different that President is always say in that

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America will defend itself and its allies. But Trump is doing it which

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has a locker room quality to it. My concern is, I would hate to see the

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president of the United States putting himself in a place where

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he's being equated with Kim Jong-un. It is important Trump does not go

:11:46.:11:48.

too far in terms of making our allies nervous. There is some value

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in making the Chinese nervous, to get diplomacy started, but if you go

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to bar with that rhetoric... You have spent a lifetime working on

:12:01.:12:03.

proliferation, so is it just delaying the inevitable that other

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countries will get the bomb and then one of them will use it? South

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Africa has given up nuclear weapons programmes, South Korea, Taiwan.

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Other efforts fail, Pakistan, India, North Korea. You never know, when

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you start, whether it will succeed or fail. You have to play out your

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hand and then at the end of the day, you will know. Thank very much.

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Acid attacks are on the rise across the UK.

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There were more than 400 in the six months up

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and the numbers have more than doubled in England since 2014,

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Most reported attacks have taken place in public places,

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but Newsnight has spoken exclusively to one family who were victims

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Elaine Dunkley reports, and her film contains images some

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Where does it hurt, mate, are you all right?

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We're here to try and get water into your eyes.

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Mate, keep your eyes open, keep your eyes open.

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The use of chemicals as a weapon is growing in the UK.

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Victims left physically and mentally scarred by

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I was thinking, I'm not going to see anything after that.

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A common household product widely available and used in the

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Back in April, 20 people were left injured and two

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blinded following an acid attack in this nightclub.

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Thieves on scooters throwing acid and people to steal

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And now it's happening in people's homes.

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Zahadine Barba was attacked in his living room three weeks ago.

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Showed the phone to him and he said yes, I'm

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And grabbed a bottle out from his bag and he just pressed on that

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Twice on my face, and acid comes on my face and I'm

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totally blind, and I know that he attacked me with acid.

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Fortunately Zahadine was able to wash off the acid.

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He has no visible scars and has regained his sight but

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his family has been left traumatised.

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I went to the kitchen and then I saw my dad over there,

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And you know, like putting the water on his face, and

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then I ran off to the garden because I really didn't want to see that

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I never had anything like this before happened

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And how are you now, how are things now for you?

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Recent attacks have brought into focus the urgency in helping

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someone who has been a victim of this sort of crime.

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And although it is still very rare, the Royal

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College of Emergency Medicine is calling for more training of

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This is Newham University Hospital and it's in East London.

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This area has the highest number of acid attakcs in the UK.

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In the past five years there have been 400 cases and that

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We are seeing a case about every day or

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two, especially in this area, it seems to be a lot more frequent.

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And some members of the public, what should they do if they see someone

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with eyes burning, skin burning, what do you do.

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It's important to stay safe as a bystander, make sure you

:15:59.:16:01.

Other than that if you can help the person

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by rinsing the acid off them and tap water is good for that but you need

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I would recommend using 30, 40 or 50 litres of water to

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get rid of the acid from someone's face.

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This is extremely important, you can make a difference to whether

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someone can walk away from an acid attack with just a superficial burn

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or be blinded for the rest of their lives.

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The problem is reflected across the UK.

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Attacks carried out in the six months up to

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Since 2011 there have been nearly 2000 attacks in the

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There are petitions online to restrict the sale of industrial

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It is cheap, easy to obtain and disguise.

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It is a challenge for those trying to take it out of the

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I think it's far too easy for people to get hold of

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it, whether in a domestic setting or retail setting.

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But one thing that is important to say is that it is

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One of the things we are doing now is, we are

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looking to do pre-emptive testing to identify where people carry that

:17:12.:17:14.

acid, we are also working closely to send

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strong messaging around the

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If you choose to carry acid you can be

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liable for a four-year imprisonment sentence for carrying it is an

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If you use and the courts can sentence you to life

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So the penalties are very severe and it's important that

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anybody that goes out with acid, whether carrying it or whether they

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use it, that they understand that because we will be coming after you.

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Victims want tough words to become a reality.

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For those who have been left scarred, their injuries

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I'm now joined from Truro by Andreas Christopheros.

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He suffered serious burns when a beaker of sulphuric acid

:17:57.:17:59.

It happened on his own doorstep two and a half years ago.

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His attacker, who mistook Andreas for his intended victim,

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was jailed for life, but that sentence has

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Andreas, we are grateful to you for coming in to talk about this. It

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cannot be easy. When you see how much coverage has been attracted by

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this issue of late, do you think the rest of us have been too slow to

:18:31.:18:35.

wake up to the seriousness of this? I think it has become very shocking,

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shocking matter for the country. It is hard to see what the solution

:18:44.:18:49.

should have been but I believe that the real solution at this time is

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tougher sentencing. And with my attacker having his sentence made

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lighter, it seems completely wrong. You have been through so much, and

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trying to get your life back on track, do you feel that anyone who

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says that this is not as serious as I've broken attack is wrong? I would

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have preferred to have been shot or stabbed. On the first might might

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doctor sat down my wife and my mother back and said, we do not

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think he will make it through the night. The difference was that if I

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was shot or stabbed the wounds would heal, the scarring caused by

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sulphuric acid which was what I was attacked with, I will never heal. I

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will have these scars for the rest of my life. I'll will forever have a

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loss of sight. There is no miracle cure for me. I'm sure you have heard

:19:57.:20:04.

in recent months, all sorts of ideas have been put around like stopping

:20:05.:20:09.

people under 18 buying corrosive liquids, saying you have to do it

:20:10.:20:13.

with a credit card, changing sentencing guidelines, which of

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these ideas make the most sense to you? You can buy sulphuric acid in

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such an easy manner. Someone wanting to get their hands on it, they will.

:20:37.:20:41.

And ultimately I think the real deterrent for anyone thinking about

:20:42.:20:46.

committing an acid attack or an attack of any corrosive substance

:20:47.:20:52.

should be the sentencing. You recently met with your MP, who is

:20:53.:20:55.

also a Home Office minister. Do you get the feeling that the government

:20:56.:21:01.

is giving this type of crime the attention it merits? It is nice to

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hear this week the suggestion that any person who does commit an acid

:21:11.:21:14.

attack will receive a life sentence. I think the indicators are there. I

:21:15.:21:20.

feel everyone is on the same page now. It's only in the last week or

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so that I can say I've felt like that. But anyone who commits an acid

:21:25.:21:29.

attack should face life. It is a life sentence for me. They should

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face life, minimum term of 25 years. I will have my injuries until the

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grave so why should they walk the streets? Thank you for putting bad

:21:40.:21:43.

beauty us. Thank you, Andreas. Well, we've been dealing with some

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tough issues tonight, but bear with us, this last story

:21:49.:21:50.

has a more hopeful note. Climate change poses huge challenges

:21:51.:21:53.

and, it's projected, will cause hundreds of millions

:21:54.:21:55.

to become refugees. Desertification in sub-Saharan

:21:56.:21:58.

Africa plays a big part in that. And that in turn feeds into Europe's

:21:59.:22:14.

unfolding migrant crisis. Inna Modja is a Malian singer

:22:15.:22:16.

and activist who has been to Senegal for Newsnight to witness

:22:17.:22:19.

a pan-African initiative, It aims to improve livelihoods

:22:20.:22:21.

in the Sahel region, reverse desertification,

:22:22.:22:28.

and break the cycle of exodus. Stretching across the width

:22:29.:22:30.

of Africa, the southern reaches of the Sahara desert are known

:22:31.:22:39.

as the Sahel. It's a zone between sand

:22:40.:22:43.

and productive land, which has been severely degraded

:22:44.:22:47.

in recent years by climate change But here in northern Senegal,

:22:48.:22:50.

the Sahel is starting to come back to life again,

:22:51.:22:57.

thanks to a little-known pan-African initiative called

:22:58.:23:02.

the Great Green Wall. Launched in 2007, it hopes

:23:03.:23:06.

to provide a new way of thinking I'm Inna Modja, a musician

:23:07.:23:10.

and activist from Mali. I perform my music around the world

:23:11.:23:18.

and campaign for human rights The Great Green Wall was initially

:23:19.:23:22.

conceived as an ambitious plan to plant a natural 8,000 kilometres

:23:23.:24:05.

wall of trees and plants stretching from Senegal to Djibouti,

:24:06.:24:11.

but that hasn't happened and the grand idea of a continuous

:24:12.:24:13.

wall of trees has gradually faded. Critics argued that a wall promoted

:24:14.:24:18.

the idea of a barrier against the desert, when in fact

:24:19.:24:22.

it's a much greater region So, the wall has evolved

:24:23.:24:28.

into a vision to green the areas surrounding the Sahara with a mosaic

:24:29.:24:34.

of trees and small developments, This has been a shared

:24:35.:24:37.

political vision of African Notably Thomas Sankara,

:24:38.:25:16.

Burkina Faso's revolutionary Now 20 countries across the region

:25:17.:25:19.

have come together to $8 billion have been

:25:20.:25:30.

given or pledged so far, mostly coming from international

:25:31.:25:35.

partners, such as the World Bank with some funding from beneficiary

:25:36.:25:38.

countries and the African union. People here live on the very front

:25:39.:25:43.

line of climate change, But in their day-to-day lives,

:25:44.:25:46.

they feel the effects of climate change, they feel

:25:47.:26:01.

the effects of desertification. This project really aims to redress

:26:02.:26:03.

this by creating food security And it's not just about food,

:26:04.:26:05.

every day we see the wider impact The Mediterranean migrant crisis,

:26:06.:26:10.

the Boko Haram massacres in the Chad region and terrorist

:26:11.:26:15.

attacks in Mali and Burkina Faso. At their root, all of this can be

:26:16.:26:19.

traced to a cycle of poverty and lack of opportunity

:26:20.:26:22.

that is fuelled by a decline In a generation, there's been

:26:23.:26:24.

a catastrophic change The Great Green Wall aims to provide

:26:25.:26:44.

new opportunities for communities, not just to survive,

:26:45.:27:25.

but to thrive here once more. Places like this in Senegal are

:27:26.:27:54.

known as the villages with no men. There's a gaping hole

:27:55.:28:01.

in the local demographic. The young men have left

:28:02.:28:06.

to seek jobs elsewhere, It's driving the young away

:28:07.:28:08.

from their communities to seek I can see that you have

:28:09.:28:15.

henna on your fingers, This lady has not heard

:28:16.:28:26.

from her son for years. He was the major breadwinner

:28:27.:28:30.

for the family before he left. How does that affect

:28:31.:28:34.

you economically? It only takes a walk

:28:35.:29:09.

through the dusty street here to see whose relatives have made it

:29:10.:29:14.

to Europe and whose haven't. The homes of successful migrants

:29:15.:29:22.

are large properties made The others are wood

:29:23.:29:24.

and straw with thatched This is the pull factor that drives

:29:25.:29:36.

many towards the perilous boat In west Africa up to 80% of

:29:37.:29:40.

the population live in rural areas. Youth unemployment is a huge problem

:29:41.:29:58.

across the Sahel and a massive By 2030, the project aims to restore

:29:59.:30:01.

100 million hectares of land, sequester 250 million tonnes

:30:02.:30:32.

of carbon and generate more Although it's not clear exactly how

:30:33.:30:34.

these numbers will be achieved. It's definitely small beginnings,

:30:35.:30:45.

with the hope of building The Great Green Wall is a powerful

:30:46.:30:47.

symbol to focus global attention It remains to be seen how successful

:30:48.:31:00.

it will be in breaking Fascinating, that is all from us

:31:01.:31:20.

tonight, we are back on Monday, have a great weekend.

:31:21.:31:27.

Good evening after disappointing weather this week the weekend is

:31:28.:31:33.

shaping up nicely, not altogether dry

:31:34.:31:34.

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