14/08/2017 Newsnight

But tonight the Government's Brexit position, finally,

In something that looks a lot like the Customs Union,

but with Britain able to negotiate free trade agreements with the

We ask whether the proposed transitional arrangement is possible

Map and two days after the event. -- and finally two days after the

event. And those who cause violence

in its name are criminals and thugs. Including the KKK, neo-Nazis,

white supremacists and other hate groups that are repugnant

to everything we hold Trump this evening disavowed the

racists but will this be enough to stem the tide of criticism of how he

handled events in Charlottesville? Also tonight, after one of the most

exciting opening weekends in its 25-year history,

we ask one of the Premier League's architects whether it has changed

British football for the better. And now, disengaged from the shirt,

I saw with wonder and surprise... Not the plaything of a boy,

nor the weapon of a man, The Prime Minister returns this week

from her walking holiday in Europe and her government is keen to show

it's stealing the march on Brexit. Until now the predominant features

of this summer have been Cabinet in-fighting and criticism over

the speed at which they're But tonight a picture is starting

to emerge of what Britain's negotiators will be pushing

for in Brussels. Tomorrow a "future partnership

paper" will lay out the government's aspirations for one particularly

thorny issue - the customs union, how we trade with our

European neighbours. This isn't a formal negotiating

position, that is still to come, but the plans suggest that the UK

wants to put in place a temporary customs union during a transitional

period after we leave the EU This is after the Chancellor

and International Trade Secretaries wrote a joint article

in the Sunday Telegraph making explicit that they want us out

of the customs union the moment We will get full details of the

government's proposals tomorrow. editor Helen Thomas has been looking

at the government's proposals. It is one of the big questions of

Brexit, were Britain step part of the customs union, which allows

goods to flow freely tariff free between the countries. Today the

first glimpse of a real answer from the government. The government wants

an interim period where we keep a close association with the customs

union. Good news for those fearing a hard cliff edge Brexit. And it's

meant to provide certainty to businesses. The government has also

proposed two possible models for what happens in the future after

that. The first is a streamlined customs system that uses technology

and other agreements to remove as many barriers to trade as possible.

The second is a new customs partnership, a spoke arrangement

that enables trade to carry on very much as it does at the moment.

Budget abyss spoke arrangement. That's back up. A customs union is

where a group of countries band together. In the case of the EU it

agrees, no customs duties and borders between states so countries

can be traded between those countries free of charge -- so goods

can be traded free of charge. But if goods coming from other countries

they are charged. Each in the same way, whether it's going into France,

Greece, Italy and any other country in the region. And crucially members

are banned by the EU's Common commercial policy. Which means they

are not able to strike their own trade deals with other countries.

Philip Hammond and Liam Fox this weekend called for a time limited

interim period for transition yet stressed they were agreed that

during this period the UK will be outside the single market and

outside the customs union. Well, on the latest proposals they will

indeed be a period of transition. And it will be time limited. But

what the government seems to be saying is that we would leave the

customs union only to move to separate arrangement as similar to

it as humanly possible. The big difference would be that the UK

wants the right to start negotiating its own trade deals, even if it does

not sign them what could be contentious. We would be leaving the

customs union only to stay as close to it as possible. Firstly there is

a legal problem. As long as you are part of close to the EU customs

union the rules don't let strike your own trade agreements. Secondly

a practical point, other countries like Canada and New Zealand that

might do deals with the UK don't want to negotiate unless they know

what the UK's future relationship with the EU will look like and they

will have to wait some time before they know the answer. So what about

longer-term options. If it is option one which means border checks at

least governments and businesses will have had time to prepare. But

option two, a new type of customs partnership, could mean no

disruptions at the Borders at all. It all comes down to negotiation. Is

the free flow of German cars and Italian press Dzeko important enough

for Michel Barnier wrote to let the UK strike its own trade deals on the

side? And will the UK be prepared to tell enough rules to make that

happen? Helen Thomas there. Full details on this proposal will be

released tomorrow, what we've had is just a preview but there's enough

meat in it to discuss. Joining me now is leading Brexiteer

and Conservative MP John Redwood. Also with me is the Labour MP

Chris Leslie who is a spokesperson for the campaign group Open Britain

which is campaigning Good evening to you. John, if I

could start with you. It is slightly odd, is not that Liam Fox and the

Chancellor got together this weekend, wrote this article in the

Sunday Telegraph and say they want us to be out of the customs union by

March 2019, and then we will have this transitional period where we

are in the customs union for we don't know how long. It is a mess. I

don't think the second part is true. It is good news that

the Chancellor and the trade secretary both agree with the

government 's policy which has been a stated policy for some time but we

are leaving the single market and leaving the customs union. That

isn't just the government's wish. It is the expressed view of Parliament

because we had the important vote on this in the recent Parliament and we

agreed we would leave the single market and the customs union. This

shows the fudging it because you will be in the position where you

want the UK and the customs union, all but in name. It is a fudge. The

document has a couple of options on technical issues about how customs

will work once we have left the customs union. Of course we would

like something smooth and similar to what we have at the moment, it's

easier to replicate things you've already got. But we won't be in the

customs union, will be making our own trade agreements. And we have 19

months before we are likely to leave the European Union. So instead of

concentrating on a transitional arrangement afterwards surely we

should maximise our use of the 19 months. One good thing about this

paper is that it is getting the media and we hope, the EU, to

understand about trade now. You've brought up the EU, it is all very

well to say, we are off but we would like all the same perks until we've

sorted out our next deals. These are not perks. Some people would say

they are. Let me ask you, why on earth would Brussels consent to

this. Because they have much more trade than we do in terms of trade

and volume of trade and particularly value of trade that can attract and

rules. If we go out with no deal which is feasible for Britain and

would be fine, there will be big tariffs on agricultural products. I

don't think everyone agrees it would be fine including Chris. The

government 's line is that no deal is better than a bad deal. Let me

explain. Agricultural products, things that can attract high

tariffs, they can bring in a massive surplus and we don't want that. You

are sure that would be a mess, we are going back to this land of

wanting to have your cake and eat it. Maybe the penny is beginning to

drop somewhere in Whitehall that this idea of leaving the customs

union, we can wait for the single market, we'd like to stay in that as

well, wouldn't be that good for our economy, society, and prosperity

large. The problem is that trying to extricate Britain from what, 57

different trade deals that EU have made over the last 40 years leaves

Britain and in the cold because of Brexit with all of that, to peace

pipe all those jigsaw pieces, how are you going to put those pieces --

two piece back all those pieces, how you going to... Do you see it, Chris

Leslie, as is often in of the position? We thought we were heading

for a so-called hard Brexit and we were leaving the customs union and

going for a deal that is almost exactly the same in all but name do

you know hope this is a softer Brexit. I would hope so and Philip

Hammond seems to be trying to pull the government in that direction. My

worry is that there are so many obstacles that have to be thought

through properly. For instance, how is the UK going to get a fresh free

trade agreement with the EU through all of those national parliaments

across the EU. For instance all of those existing trade deals that we

in the UK enjoy, how do we get those grand fathered, basically, readopted

the UK. We are facing a problem. The Vote Leave guys promised, in the

referendum, John and Vote Leave promised that straight after the

referendum, from day one, we'd be able to negotiate all these trade

deals. But has not happened. Tomorrow's papers are writing this

up as a victory for those who support softer Brexit in the

challenge, a victory for the Chancellor. As an ardent Brexiteer

do you feel in any way you've been sold down the river? I don't agree

with that analysis at all. Government policy is clear that we

leave the single market and the customs union. All this trade

agreements we have with the EU and the rest of the world will translate

to us as well if ourselves in the party wanted, it is nothing to do

with the EU, it's about us. If Iraq that is 57 bilateral deals of all

the countries in the world. When will that happen? It won't be March

2019... Muggy give us date. I see no reason why the trade should not

happen at all. John Redwood, would you prefer Jacob Rhys Mogg to do

this deal instead of Theresa May? I'm happy with Theresa May, she is

the leader, and Mr Rhys Mogg says he isn't running the leader. We are

going to lead in March 20 19. We will leave the single market...

Weirdly, John Redwood is happy and Chris Leslie, you are also happy.

It's a reversal of the whole of the Brexit process and I think we could

still go in that direction. Thank you very much. Brexit back on the

agenda. Elsewhere, President Trump this

evening condemned the neo-Nazis, KKK members and activists from other

hate groups who sparked the violence this weekend

in Charlottesville, Virginia - one of America's largest

recent public gatherings The trouble led to the

death of anti-fascist campaigner Heather Heyer

and left 19 others injured. Today's remarks were,

you might think, a standard presidential statement

under the circumstances, yet it took Mr Trump two

days to reach a position where he was prepared to speak out

against the far-right elements whose support some believe helped him

into the White House. How significant is the extreme

right in America - and has Trump created the conditions

in which the movement might grow? Gabriel Gatehouse has been examining

the aftermath of a shocking weekend. This report contains some strong

language. They came to Charlottesville

prepared for confrontation. The Unite the Right protesters

included neo-Nazis and members They brought shields

and helmets, clubs and guns. By mid-afternoon, one woman

was dead, killed by a speeding car, allegedly driven by a man described

as having an interest White supremacists were condemned

by nearly everybody We condemn in the strongest possible

terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence,

on many sites. -- of hatred, bigotry

and violence, on many sides. A neo-Nazi website interpreted this

statement as a tacit What might have been a tragic

but isolated incident of political violence has become an existential

question about where The far right that we're talking

about here believes that white people in the United States

are being "dispossessed". So when they heard Trump talk

about building a wall, when they heard him talk

about Mexicans being criminals and rapists, when he retweeted

somebody whose account, their Twitter handle

was called "White Genocide", these were all things that thrilled

them, that energised them, that made them believe that

Donald Trump was one of them This has been declared

unlawful assembly. The authorities in Charlottesville

were taken aback by how fast The governor of Virginia said

the right-wing protesters The counterdemonstrators

seemed less well armed, but no less angry and,

say witnesses on the right, Look out there yourself for footage

of these rallies and these marches That doesn't excuse any behaviour,

on either side, that's But I'm saying that if we want

to have a full and frank conversation about this,

we have to realise that these The protest in Charlottesville

was sensibly called in defence of a statue

to a Confederate general. Their torchlit procession

was reminiscent of the Klan America has changed since then,

but not, perhaps, as much as eight years of an Obama

presidency might suggest. Black quarterbacks on the team

of white supremacy hasn't helped us. On the eve of Donald Trump's

inauguration I met Silky Slim, a community activist in Baton Rouge,

Louisiana. The KKK, he told me then,

had never really gone away. Even so, today he's taken

aback by the vehemence When we talked to you back then,

when you came here, one of the things we really didn't

understand, the language where people were asking us,

when they came from England, France and other places,

do you think this is going to be a race war, we were like no,

we're fighting against injustice. But now, we definitely see a race

war on the horizon here in America. They aren't even hiding

behind their hoods any more. With Trump in office,

they think this is something that they can bring to the forefront

and America has to accept it. It's a very crazy time right

here in America now. Under pressure, Donald Trump today

condemned white supremacy more And those who cause violence

in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK,

neo-Nazis, white supremacists and other hate groups that

are repugnant to everything But in Charlottesville

and elsewhere, there are those who fear his presidency has

unleashed forces many thought consigned to history,

and opened wounds that the passage Joining me now from New York

are the conservative commentator Ann Coulter and Ellis Cose,

a fellow of the American Civil Liberties Union and author

of multiple books exploring Thank you for joining us. Donald

Trump called a press conference today in which he explicitly

condemned members of the KKK, neo-Nazis, he knew that he had done

something wrong in not explicitly condemning the groups before, didn't

he? No, I don't think so. I think that there were different factions

that were so heavily... The Republican party in Washington hates

Trump and were pushing him to do it, I don't think he should have. To

give your view a more accurate description of what happened, the

New York Times report, one of the most liberal reporters here, said

that the violence was coming from both sides. In fact it was New York

militia members doing a better job than the police, who were told to

stand down by Democrats. This country has been ruled by left-wing

violence for more than a year now. If I can just interrupt, it is a

false equivalence to say left-wing violence was the same as fascist

white supremacists coming together, walking in jack boots, holding guns,

saying that you will not defeat us, dues will not replace us, shouting

all sorts of hateful slogans, they started the rally and created the

rally and it is the largest group of white supremacist with their faces

shown. It isn't the same as antifascist protesters coming

together. Absolutely wrong, the "Antifascist", the labels you put on

them, those protesters burned down Berkeley twice to prevent me and

others from speaking, they shut down a Rose Parade in Portland that has

gone on for years because the local Republicans were going to March. No

Conservative can speak at a college campus because the "anti-fascists"

smashed windows and beat people up. The one actual legal difference as

opposed to a label that you're going to put on them is that these alleged

Nazis, some work, someone not, there were a few Nazis, I'm not one of

them, they had a permit to speak and they were not allowed to speak. The

anti-fascists disrupted a legal gathering. Donald Trump has clearly

condemned the KKK today, perhaps late, you would say, but has he done

enough? Has he done enough? He's done all I think. I think it's right

to say they had a permit and one reason for that is because the ACLU

stood up for them to get a permit. We have to separate the question of

freedom of speech from what the speech entailed and what they

encouraged and what they created. The problem is that we had a group

of white racists who wanted a race riot, basically. There's no way

around that. And the fact that the president took two days to speak to

it is ridiculous. It's a movement like Witness or anyone who season

something, instead of making an immediate statement, speaking two

days after being beaten up and finally saying OK, I'll do it...

Even when he spoke out he mixed up his message by saying he was

thinking of pardoning a sheriff in Arizona who was convicted of racial

profiling and slamming the black CEO who resigned, dating to his lack of

fortitude in speaking about this before. Clearly Donald Trump has a

problem when it comes to associating himself from virulent racism in

America, and no president should have that problem that they are such

a big part of his face that he must accommodate them -- a big part of

his base. A former KKK leader who was at the March said that "We are

going to fulfil the promises of Donald Trump. " Why are they doing

it in Donald Trump's name and is that the reason he refused to risk

this elite condemned them in the immediate aftermath of the Wyatt? --

he refused to explicitly condemned them in the aftermath of the riot.

If we're talking about how long it takes for a condemnation, the Black

Lives Matter activists are responsible for killing ten cops

last year. Five in Louisiana. How many black people lost their lives

in America last year...? Why wasn't president Obama asked to denounce

that. That is a smear, Black Lives Matter did not kill ten cops, that

is an incorrect slur, it is a lie. Neither did the clan. The man who

drove a car did not... You don't even know if this was... It is a

flat out live. It isn't. -- a flat out lie. These are people who are

part of Donald Trump's base so he has a lot of trouble associating

himself. Hillary had Black Lives Matter speakers at her convention.

Donald Trump is not going to have David Duke at his convention. In a

freedom of speech and expression you are both speaking at the same time.

Thank you for joining us. Saudi Arabia - a key ally

of the UK and America - has been ruled as an absolute

monarchy since its foundation. Any opposition in the country

is often brutally oppressed - even it seems when the dissent comes

from within the reigning Al Saud royal family,

which has more than 10,000 members. BBC Arabic has been investigating

allegations that the Saudi monarchy has operated a system of illegal

abduction and capture of dissident Princes who have

criticised the government, including evidence of Princes

kidnapped in Europe and forced back to Saudi Arabia,

where they've not been He's one of the grandsons

of King Abdulaziz ibn Saud, He is also a fierce critic

of the ruling elite in the kingdom. In January 2016 he was preparing

to travel to Cairo on a private jet offered to him by the Saudi

consulate in Paris. Two of his staff told us

what happened on that flight. Their identities are

hidden to protect them. It wasn't until just before

we landed that we realised As soon as the Prince realised

where we were he got up without his walker and was trying

to get towards the door. We looked out the window and we just

saw a bunch of people get out with their rifles slung

over their chests and The soldiers and cabin crew dragged

Sultan from the plane. He was screaming at his team

to call the US embassy. A Saudi prince and his team

of European and American nationals were kidnapped and taken to Saudi

Arabia. The foreigners were allowed

to leave three days later. Sultan has not been

heard from since. Other dissident princes have also

gone missing since 2015. Our investigation gathered evidence

of the kidnapping and illegal rendition of family members who'd

criticised the Saudi rulers. I'm meeting Prince Khalid

Bin Farhan al-Saud. His branch of the family fell

out of favour long ago, and more recently he began

to question the Saudi Eventually he fled to Germany

and claimed asylum. According to Prince Khalid,

the fate of the dissident princes is decided at the very top

of the Saudi government. This is Prince Turki

bin Bandar al-Saud. He was once a major in the Saudi

police force, with access to highly The bitter inheritance

dispute with the family On his release he fled to Paris

where he lived in this apartment. In June 2012 he began posting videos

on YouTube in which he calls I've spent months tracking down

people in Paris who knew Turki. Most are reluctant to speak,

saying they fear retribution This man is a blogger and activist

who was a friend of Turki's. I searched the international

media for news of Turki. I found this article

in a Moroccan newspaper. It says Turki was about to leave

Morocco for France when he was Then, following a request

from the Saudi authorities, he was deported, with the approval

of a Moroccan court. If the article is accurate,

it looks as if the Moroccan authorities may have colluded

with the Saudis in We put these allegations

to the government of Morocco. I'd heard about yet another Saudi

prince who had disappeared. Saud bin Saif al-Nasr

was a relatively minor royal. A playboy with a liking for Europe's

casinos and expensive hotels. But in 2014 he began tweeting

attacks on the Saudi monarchy. To those who say I'm criticising

people from my family, I say it's obligatory

to state the truth. In September 2015 an anonymous Suadi

price wrote asking for a coup. The letters went online

and were read by millions. This was an astonishing

display of opposition. Prince Saud was the only royal

to endorse the letters. This was tantamount to treason

and may have sealed his fate. A few days later, his Twitter

account fell silent. This tweet on September

10th 2015 was his last. I call for the nation to turn

the content of the letters Although there is no definitive

proof, Prince Khalid and two other sources believe he may have fallen

into an elaborate trap. For one of the Princess, Sultan,

2016 was not the first time in 2003 and placed under

house arrest in Saudi. After his health deteriorated,

he was allowed to leave Saudi in 2014 to seek medical treatment

in the United States. He later placed a criminal complaint

against his cousin and a Saudi official, accusing them

of the 2003 abduction. His lawyer informed the Swiss

authorities about the most recent kidnapping, hoping something might

be done about the first. In my understanding of Swiss

laws, you have 15 years 15 years from that June date in 2003

and it is a lengthy process, going So effectively by suspending

the prosecution, it's really defeating the ability in a timely

manner to pursue the prosecution. According to Swiss law the legal

action against Sultan's alleged We tried to contact the three

Princes, without success. When we asked the government

of Saudi Arabia to respond to the allegations in this film,

it declined to comment. Meanwhile, Prince Khalid,

still exiled in Germany, fears he also may face

the same fate as Sultan. Some have called it the best opening

weekend in the 25 years 31 goals have already been

scored since the season When the league launched

in 1992 it was described as the big bang moment that

would transform the game. Since then TV fees, player salaries

and ticket prices have soared. Many believe the standard

of the football has skyrocketed 25 years on, has the Premier League

done what it set out to do, We'll discuss all that in just

a moment, but first here are some MUSIC: Alive and Kicking

by Simple Minds Fashion and hairstyles aren't

the only things to have moved on in the 25 years since English

football's First Division broke away Only 13 foreign players appeared

in the Premier League's opening Uefa's latest report

on European football said the Premier League

now had the highest proportion

of foreign players of the 75 It also topped the league

for foreign coaches, at 75%. Match day attendances are up,

but TV has been where the real Sky paid ?191 million to air live

matches for five years, At the last auction,

Sky and BT paid a combined ?5.1 billion for just three seasons

of match rights. That money has then

flowed to the clubs. Despite that, tickets have got

pricier, with fans taking the hit. One estimate puts the 1992 average

ticket price at about ?7.50. Adjusted for inflation,

that would be ?14.25 last year. Last season's average

ticket price, according So, are spectators getting more bang

for their extra buck? Well, on average there were just

0.15 more goals per game last year All that money, it seems,

doesn't necessarily make Well, one of the people

who negotiated the deal that created the Premier League was its first

Chief Executive, Rick Parry. Also with us is Henry Winter, the

Chief Football Writer at The Times. Rick Parry, good evening, let me

come to your first. As one of the architects of the Premier League has

it worked out? Unquestionably. It is arguably the most popular

professional sporting contest on the planet, watched in more than 200

countries. Popular in many respects, it has certainly done what it set

out to do. I think there are challenges. Nothing is perfect and I

think in particular at the moment it is disappointing that our teams are

not doing well in Europe in the five years up to 2009, we were on the top

of the pile, the number one ranked nation, now we are number three.

There is a chasm between the Premier League and the football league.

Wider than ever before, that is an issue. And perennially national team

still is not doing what we all hope it would do and steps can be taken

there. Will come onto some of those points in a moment. Henry Winter,

you speak to a lot of fans and right on behalf of them, many feel price

tag. I think one year ago you saw Liverpool fans holding up that

banner which said enough is enough, echoing the views of fans all over

the country, not simply in the Premier League, some of the prices

being asked of fans, it was unconscionable for many in the

difficult economic climate. Certainly the more intelligent clubs

like Stoke City are addressing the price issue. It's not simply that

the cost for home fans, it's a fans as well forget the atmosphere going

on many occasions, finally I think now clubs have finally realised that

ticket prices have been too much, the football supporters Federation

who have led this campaign together with their counterparts at

Liverpool, they want and ?20 fall away tickets, this 20 is bloody

campaign. As Rick said the huge amounts of money flowing into the

games and clubs through sponsorship and revenue, they have to start

bringing down their prices even more. Sharing the wealth, should

more money go from the Premier League to invest in the grassroots

of football, it's only 100 million that has been pledged, when you

think of the figures involved. ?100 million in terms of the Premier

League is a significant sum, in terms of grassroots, of course more

can always be done... That's two players from Manchester City, in

compared to the cost of the TV rights. Or less than half a player

in the case of PSG. The Premier League for its greatness has not let

the cash flow around in the right way and has denied its fans access.

Unquestionably there are some issues that needs to be addressed, it's

been a success on many, many levels but I think there are some

challenges ahead, and neglecting fans, that is huge mistake because

at the end of the day it is atmosphere that is of paramount

importance. Fans absolutely part of the event, and without traditional

fans, the spectacle is not what it should be. Many fans of an older

profile, due to their age, Henry, only 13 foreign players in the

Premier League started, your entire career has been about covering the

Premier League. The now - know the majority of foreign players, how

much of an issue has this been for England's national team. My career

has almost been learning new languages with the welter of foreign

players coming in! It's a huge issue for the team, your statistic of 67%

of foreign players impinges on the opportunities, the pathway of these

good kids but we've got being developed at the academies, they are

not able to force their way into first team squad is because coaches,

many of whom are foreign and don't necessarily have any affiliation to

the England team, because of the pressure on them to win trophies,

they are not going to risk it with young kids. There are exceptions,

Mauricio Pochettino at Spurs does give kids a chance as we saw at the

weekend. There are some managers who are enlightened on this. But too

Fisher. It's huge for the national team because we saw this summer the

England age group teams are doing well, the under 19 groups, the under

20s, what has happened to the senior teams, they are struggling to get of

the group stage of tournaments because too few of these players are

getting opportunities. A big challenge. In 25 years maybe we will

be talking about 50 years of the Premier League. Rick Parry, Henry

Winter, thank you. That's all we've got

time for tonight. But before we go, it emerged over

the weekend that the 18th century erotic classic,

Fanny Hill, had been removed from a university reading

list for being too racy. We didn't want any students who'd

hoped to read it to feel So here's the editor of The Amorist,

Rowan Pelling, with a passage. And now, disengaged from the shirt,

I saw with wonder and surprise... Not the plaything of a boy,

nor the weapon of a man, but a maypole of so enormous

a standard that, had proportions been observed,

it must have belonged Its prodigious size made me shrink

again, yet it could not, without pleasure, behold,

and even venture to feel such a length and breadth of animated

ivory, perfectly well The proud stiffness

of which distended its skin, whose smooth polish and velvet

softness might vie with that of the most delicate of our sex,

and whose exquisite whiteness