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At the stroke of the midnight hour, when the world sleeps, India | :00:00. | :00:08. | |
You are free to go to your mosques, or any other place of worship | :00:09. | :00:24. | |
Welcome to this special edition of Newsnight. | :00:25. | :00:27. | |
70 years ago, British India was partitioned. | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
Today was the first day of India's independence | :00:32. | :00:33. | |
and the birth of a new country, Pakistan. | :00:34. | :00:38. | |
It was also the beginning of the end of the British Empire. | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
Tonight, we'll be hearing stories of those who lived | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
through one of the most convulsive moments of the 20th century, | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
exploring the reasons why the political legacy in India | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
and Pakistan is still so troubled, even poisoned. | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
We'll be discussing whether we as a country have come | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
to terms with Empire and how it ended, | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
and asking young British Asians why the split 70 years ago | :01:05. | :01:06. | |
This is Partition, 70 years on - a Newsnight Special. | :01:07. | :01:16. | |
With us is an audience including people who lived | :01:17. | :01:36. | |
through the partition of British India 70 years ago. | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
When the British left hastily and chaotically, | :01:41. | :01:42. | |
and with the drawing of the new borders, millions | :01:43. | :01:49. | |
of lives were changed overnight, and people who had lived together | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
side by side turned against each other. | :01:53. | :01:54. | |
We'll be hearing some shocking stories in a moment. | :01:55. | :01:56. | |
First, a reminder of how events unfolded. | :01:57. | :02:07. | |
Victory in Europe had left the country bombed, | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
With the task of rebuilding an exhaustive nation | :02:13. | :02:24. | |
With the task of rebuilding an exhausted nation | :02:25. | :02:26. | |
and repaying billions of dollars to the United States, | :02:27. | :02:28. | |
running an empire was the last thing the new Labour government needed. | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
In India too, which had supplied 2.5 million soldiers and had | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
geared its economy to the war, there was a new urgency. | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
The decades of nonviolent resistance to British rule, | :02:38. | :02:39. | |
led by the now octogenarian Mahatma Gandhi, had failed. | :02:40. | :02:46. | |
Now he was overshadowed by two men who vied for control | :02:47. | :02:48. | |
Jawaharlal Nehru, the leader of the Congress Party, | :02:49. | :02:55. | |
and Muhammad Ali Jinnah of the Muslim League | :02:56. | :02:57. | |
had different visions of what would come next. | :02:58. | :03:00. | |
Nehru wanted a united India, but Jinnah felt India's | :03:01. | :03:03. | |
100 million Muslims, a quarter of the population, | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
would be marginalised by the Hindu majority. | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
He demanded safeguards, even a separate homeland, | :03:12. | :03:13. | |
Britain had been the dominant power in India for 200 years. | :03:14. | :03:24. | |
Now the proponents of Indian independence found that they were | :03:25. | :03:27. | |
In late 1946, the government of Clement Attlee announced | :03:28. | :03:30. | |
Britain's withdrawal from India by June 1948. | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
But in the face of rising sectarian tensions and violence which had | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
erupted around northern India, in June 1947, the last viceroy, | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
Lord Mountbatten, in agreement with Nehru and Jinnah, | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
decided the country would be partitioned. | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
He brought forward the date for Britain's exit. | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
There would now be just ten weeks to prepare for partition. | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
Jinnah celebrated independence on 14th August in Karachi. | :04:01. | :04:06. | |
Nehru's dream of a united India had failed, but on August 15th, | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
Independence Day, in Delhi he celebrated long-fought | :04:12. | :04:12. | |
At the stroke of the midnight hour, when the world sleeps, | :04:13. | :04:22. | |
India will awake to life and freedom. | :04:23. | :04:32. | |
The provinces of Bengal and Punjab, under the partition plan, | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
For centuries, communities had lived together in relative harmony, | :04:37. | :04:43. | |
making a smooth geographical division near impossible. | :04:44. | :04:51. | |
What followed was mass migration and dreadful violence. | :04:52. | :04:54. | |
It amounted to an attempt at ethnic cleansing. | :04:55. | :05:06. | |
Around 12 million people were on the move... | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
Muslims to Pakistan, Sikhs and Hindus to India. | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
Approximately a million men, women and children died | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
The authorities on both sides were completely unprepared | :05:22. | :05:29. | |
and appealed for calm, but it was too late. | :05:30. | :05:38. | |
The British relinquished responsibility for the region, | :05:39. | :05:41. | |
leaving India divided and their leaders trying | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
to get a grip on the bloody reality of partition. | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
That division had unforeseen consequences, which still shape | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
Joining me now is Gurbakhsh Garcha, Raj Dswani and Iftkahr Ahmed, | :05:52. | :06:01. | |
all of whom witnessed first hand the birth of the two | :06:02. | :06:04. | |
First of all, Gurbakhsh, you were a Sikh boy growing up | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
It was a small village with a population where a quarter | :06:11. | :06:23. | |
were Muslim and the rest were Sikhs, mainly, and a family of Hindus. | :06:24. | :06:30. | |
It was an open village with streets for us to run around in, | :06:31. | :06:39. | |
We could go wherever we liked, | :06:40. | :06:48. | |
and it was a wonderful life as children. | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
We had lots of trees around the village and there wasn't | :06:54. | :06:56. | |
And you celebrated festivals together? | :06:57. | :06:58. | |
At the time of Eid, the Muslim community | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
And when we had Diwali, we sent sweets to their houses. | :07:04. | :07:10. | |
My grandmother was very close friends with a Muslim lady. | :07:11. | :07:21. | |
Iftkahr Ahmed, you were a young Muslim living near Delhi. | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
How did it feel to you when independence was declared? | :07:26. | :07:32. | |
Well, around independence, Delhi was all lit up | :07:33. | :07:34. | |
and we all got together, Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, | :07:35. | :07:43. | |
we all got together and celebrated on the 15th, Independence Day. | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
We didn't know what would happen tomorrow. | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
We were just one India, Hindustan, and we celebrated together. | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
Because it was a day of huge celebrations. | :07:55. | :07:56. | |
Yeah, we all were together to celebrate on 15th August. | :07:57. | :08:03. | |
Raj, you were a Hindu boy living in Sindh province and overnight, | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
everything changed, it became part of Pakistan | :08:09. | :08:11. | |
Tell me what happened and what that meant to you to leave? | :08:12. | :08:20. | |
From Sindh, 1.2 million people migrated. | :08:21. | :08:27. | |
The day we left was a dark day, we would say. | :08:28. | :08:39. | |
But when you were there as a boy, you had a very close friendship | :08:40. | :08:53. | |
with a young Muslim girl called Jasmine. | :08:54. | :08:56. | |
As my friend said, on Eid and Diwali, we used | :08:57. | :09:07. | |
to exchange sweets and on other festivals, we used to be together. | :09:08. | :09:22. | |
Now, for the brothers in Punjab and brothers of Bengal who suffered, | :09:23. | :09:25. | |
But your personal calamity was because you left your | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
That was also a personal thing, but I am talking of Sindh itself, | :09:29. | :09:39. | |
We didn't get a single inch of the soil. | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
Bengal got half of Bengal, but we were landless. | :09:46. | :09:52. | |
We had to leave our friends, our relatives, our materials. | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
Whatever we had, we just came in our clothes. | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
Iftkahr, it was dangerous for you to be a Muslim in Delhi | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
You got there and then what did you see at Lahore station? | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
I came through and the train was there and I asked | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
one of the soldiers, "Take me with you". | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
He said, "OK, if you're on your own, come over". | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
So I jumped on the train and they hid me. | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
And because for three or four days I hadn't eaten anything, | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
We reached Lahore and the soldier said | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
"There you are, son, you're in Pakistan, | :10:45. | :10:46. | |
Then he got off the train and left me on the platform. | :10:47. | :10:53. | |
Because I hadn't slept for so long, I just put | :10:54. | :10:59. | |
And I woke up about four o'clock in the morning. | :11:00. | :11:06. | |
I heard people talking, and realised that all the platforms | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
There were cut off women's heads, God knows, little babies. | :11:12. | :11:29. | |
And Gurbakhsh, you also saw the horror of corpses on trains, | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
mutilated bodies in the village in Punjab, but also, | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
and this is a particular story, you also saw a moment | :11:39. | :11:41. | |
This was something that happened side by side. | :11:42. | :11:50. | |
There was cruelty on one side and horrible scenes, | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
but on the other side there was compassion, and even love. | :11:56. | :12:05. | |
We saw the train passing by a village, very close. | :12:06. | :12:13. | |
And a woman with two small children fell out, | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
I think she was dreading another massacre. | :12:19. | :12:27. | |
And she was met by people in the village and she was taken | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
to a shed just outside the village and she was given a place to sit. | :12:32. | :12:43. | |
So your family protected her from the possibility | :12:44. | :12:45. | |
Yes, and they brought food and milk for the children, | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
They were really sad to see this happen to just an ordinary woman | :12:50. | :13:02. | |
So the Sikhs protected Muslims in that area. | :13:03. | :13:11. | |
And she was taken to a safe camp afterwards with her children. | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
Many never returned, but Raj, you did return eventually. | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
You went back to Sindh after decades. | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
Actually, when I boarded the aeroplane, I couldn't sleep. | :13:25. | :13:43. | |
I couldn't think of anything but my childhood, which street | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
was where and what were the roads, who were my friends. | :13:49. | :13:51. | |
Now I am returning back to my land, whether those same things | :13:52. | :13:54. | |
So when I landed there, I touched the soil, kissed it. | :13:55. | :14:03. | |
Put down my forehead and went inside. | :14:04. | :14:13. | |
My friends were there who were recent friends. | :14:14. | :14:15. | |
So they took me and I was very happy. | :14:16. | :14:22. | |
I went to my place also, where I used to live. | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
But I couldn't go inside, because I didn't dare to go inside. | :14:27. | :14:33. | |
You thought you would have collapsed because it would have emotionally | :14:34. | :14:39. | |
Iftkahr, as the years have gone past, do you ever | :14:40. | :14:46. | |
close your eyes and visualise where it was as a child? | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
For that reason, I have never told my children my story, | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
because my older son has often said, "Why you never told us?" | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
Because when I look back, the streets were | :15:01. | :15:11. | |
You don't want to remember this sort of thing. | :15:12. | :15:30. | |
Gentlemen, thank you very much indeed. | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
Unlike Raj, millions never saw their homeland again. | :15:37. | :15:39. | |
Even today, there are no direct air links between India | :15:40. | :15:41. | |
That's just one example of the lasting divide and inability | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
of the two nations to forge a modern relationship. | :15:48. | :15:50. | |
And the most obvious place to see this is at the border. | :15:51. | :16:02. | |
You are watching conflict transformed into ritual. | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
Every day, this exquisitely choreographed ballet | :16:07. | :16:09. | |
is played out at the border between India and Pakistan. | :16:10. | :16:17. | |
But the ongoing enmity between the two countries has | :16:18. | :16:19. | |
There are strict restrictions on movement. | :16:20. | :16:30. | |
All trucks have to be offloaded at the border. | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
Twice as much trade goes via Dubai than across the land border | :16:36. | :16:38. | |
It is just too much trouble to trade direct. | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
Economists say if it was made easier, there could be as much | :16:45. | :16:47. | |
as ten times the business between the two countries. | :16:48. | :16:57. | |
Whilst, as Justin says, physical trade between Pakistan | :16:58. | :16:59. | |
and India might be limited, there is a free-flowing cultural | :17:00. | :17:01. | |
exchange between them, most notably Bollywood. | :17:02. | :17:11. | |
Despite past attempts to ban Indian films here, | :17:12. | :17:13. | |
they have always been hugely popular, and many, like this one, | :17:14. | :17:16. | |
now feature Pakistani actors and Pakistani musicians. | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
But a love of Bollywood doesn't mean a love of India. | :17:23. | :17:25. | |
Many here believe India is trying to sabotage Pakistan. | :17:26. | :17:33. | |
TRANSLATION: Most of the Pakistanis like Indian movies | :17:34. | :17:35. | |
because they are good quality and have the best plots. | :17:36. | :17:37. | |
But they think of India as their enemy. | :17:38. | :17:40. | |
Otherwise, the attitude of Pakistanis is always against India. | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
These films cannot change that attitude. | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
All the best scenes, dances and songs, packaged up | :17:53. | :18:00. | |
Bollywood has traditionally been pretty much blind to religion. | :18:01. | :18:12. | |
Despite India's large Hindu majority, some | :18:13. | :18:14. | |
of the most popular stars are Muslims, even Pakistanis. | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
There were calls for a ban on Pakistani actors after a militant | :18:21. | :18:26. | |
in Indian-administered Kashmir last year. | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
India was founded on secular principles, with protection | :18:32. | :18:33. | |
for religious minorities, but many fear that India's secular | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
That's something the Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi denies. | :18:39. | :18:48. | |
But Mr Modi is a Hindu nationalist, and under his government | :18:49. | :18:51. | |
tensions have been growing between communities, | :18:52. | :18:54. | |
heightened by a series of murders of Muslims by Hindus. | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
TRANSLATION: There is some attack on Muslims | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
The only option for us Muslims now is to pick up arms. | :19:05. | :19:10. | |
We will fight to survive, or we will die here. | :19:11. | :19:24. | |
If they want us to leave India, that is not possible. | :19:25. | :19:26. | |
We were born here and it is our right. | :19:27. | :19:33. | |
This isn't something you see every day in Pakistan. | :19:34. | :19:36. | |
Today, over 60 Hindu couples are getting married in a mass | :19:37. | :19:39. | |
ceremony in the southern province of Sindh. | :19:40. | :19:45. | |
Most Hindus left Pakistan during partition, worried about how | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
they would be treated in a Muslim dominated country. | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
But there are still around 2 million living here. | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
Today is a day for celebrations, lots of celebrations. | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
But until recently, Hindu marriages like these were not legally | :20:00. | :20:02. | |
Many in the community complain that they face discrimination. | :20:03. | :20:10. | |
As a result, over the years following partition | :20:11. | :20:13. | |
thousands more Hindus have left Pakistan, many heading to India. | :20:14. | :20:21. | |
TRANSLATION: Around eight to ten people leave every week | :20:22. | :20:23. | |
My relatives left in 1991 after there was communal violence. | :20:24. | :20:36. | |
So 70 years on, the communal tensions that drove partition | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
are still very much alive in both India and Pakistan. | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
So what hope is there of that changing? | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
How many people think there will be a solution | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
between India and Pakistan and there will be peace? | :20:54. | :20:55. | |
Why do you think there is such a conflict? | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
The real power is in the hands of the army. | :21:00. | :21:05. | |
The democracy is nothing to do with terrorism. | :21:06. | :21:08. | |
So the army promotes the terrorism that leads to the death | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
Pakistani pupils are taught that the country was create under | :21:13. | :21:20. | |
the two-nation theory, that Muslims and Hindus are separate | :21:21. | :21:23. | |
What's your understanding of why Pakistan was created? | :21:24. | :21:32. | |
TRANSLATION: There was nothing common between Hindus | :21:33. | :21:35. | |
and Muslims other than the fact that they shared a land. | :21:36. | :21:37. | |
There was a lot of difference between the two, religion-wise, | :21:38. | :21:40. | |
creed-wise, their values, their culture, so that was why | :21:41. | :21:43. | |
a new country was needed to get their rights and to succeed. | :21:44. | :21:51. | |
What do you think could be done to improve the relationship | :21:52. | :21:54. | |
TRANSLATION: If our politicians stopped bashing India | :21:55. | :21:57. | |
just to get votes, that can help improving relations. | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
If cricket matches are allowed to continue between the countries, | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
I am not sure about politics, but that will help improve relations. | :22:07. | :22:09. | |
It would decrease the hatred between ordinary people on both sides. | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
Ultimately, this is really just a story about feuding families, | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
because so much more unites India and Pakistan | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
than divides them, like, for example, the food. | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
The problem is that there are some in both countries who believe | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
it's in their political interest to continue the hostilities. | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
After all, there's nothing like an external enemy | :22:38. | :22:39. | |
So at the moment, it seems there is no sign | :22:40. | :22:45. | |
I'm joined now by Professor Sunil Khilnani from King's College | :22:46. | :22:54. | |
London's India Institute, who has a written number of books | :22:55. | :22:57. | |
on India, including his most recent, Incarnations: India in 50 Lives, | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
and Dr Farzana Shaikh, an academic at Chatham House and the author | :23:03. | :23:05. | |
It is a difficult day because of course it's | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
a celebration, in one way, but it's also a memory | :23:11. | :23:12. | |
And I wonder, first of all, Professor Sunil Khilnani, | :23:13. | :23:19. | |
how does a vision for the nation 70 years ago add up to the reality? | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
Well, I mean, I think what's very interesting about this subcontinent | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
is you really have had two very different views of the | :23:30. | :23:32. | |
You had the idea of Pakistan, which has been just talked | :23:33. | :23:38. | |
about in the film we just saw, which was you have to | :23:39. | :23:41. | |
have a separate nation for a different religion. | :23:42. | :23:43. | |
In the sense, that's the European idea of a nation. | :23:44. | :23:45. | |
Which is that you have to define a nation by a single religion | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
But then you had the Indian idea of a nation, which was the idea that | :23:50. | :23:55. | |
I think Nehru and Tagore and Gandhi tried to develop which was could you | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
I think he was in the sense that he wanted to build | :24:00. | :24:09. | |
protections for minorities, and that's a very secular | :24:10. | :24:11. | |
But I think he also began to use religion in order to advance | :24:12. | :24:18. | |
Doctor Farzana Shaikh, do you think, of course, | :24:19. | :24:24. | |
That kind of legacy of the empire which was divide and rule, | :24:25. | :24:33. | |
was it ever going to be other than what it has appeared to be, | :24:34. | :24:36. | |
Well, there was nothing inevitable either about partition or indeed | :24:37. | :24:43. | |
But decisions were made at key moments. | :24:44. | :24:51. | |
The consequences of which we are living with today. | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
The decision to divide up India on lines of religion. | :24:56. | :25:04. | |
There were many moments, particularly in the 1940s | :25:05. | :25:12. | |
when leaders on both sides were trying to come to some | :25:13. | :25:15. | |
So, had independence come earlier, say even in the late 30s, | :25:16. | :25:21. | |
this idea of a religious divide would not have been so embedded | :25:22. | :25:23. | |
because it came to be embedded earlier than partition had? | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
One can't say for certain but there was certainly moments | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
when the course of history might have been very different. | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
We are in a situation where we've got the Indian president saying | :25:37. | :25:43. | |
today in his speech there is no to be no attacks on Muslims. | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
There is almost as many Muslims in India as there aren't Pakistan. | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
There seems to be a move to more reconciliation just at the time | :25:53. | :25:55. | |
when you think Hindu nationalism is on the rise. | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
I think there have been cycles of reconciliation and hostility. | :26:00. | :26:02. | |
I think you're absolutely right and I think it is an important point | :26:03. | :26:05. | |
to remember that India is about the second or third | :26:06. | :26:08. | |
largest Muslim country in the world, and that's a very, | :26:09. | :26:10. | |
I think what Prime Minister Modi has said today is a kind of more | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
conciliatory Independence Day speech but, at the same time, | :26:16. | :26:18. | |
he's also spoken from the other side of his mouth or rather not spoken | :26:19. | :26:21. | |
at all, it is his silences in many cases when there's been violent | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
against Muslims and minorities in India which has been telling. | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
But if you look at what is best indeed, for the future both | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
of the nations on a purely economic basis, you saw Justin Rowlett saying | :26:34. | :26:36. | |
there that, actually, more trade goes via Dubai than goes | :26:37. | :26:38. | |
And that's a huge opportunity for both countries, isn't it? | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
But, you know, here history and present-day | :26:43. | :26:50. | |
We have the history, of course, of communal violence. | :26:51. | :26:58. | |
Which marred and scarred millions of families, Hindus | :26:59. | :27:01. | |
We have the unfinished business of Kashmir which, again, | :27:02. | :27:11. | |
remains a burden on the Pakistani side and, of course, | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
the role of the military, whose political fortunes in Pakistan | :27:16. | :27:18. | |
have been built on keeping this conflict alive. | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
We are now in a situation where the last generation who lived | :27:23. | :27:25. | |
together is moving forward and we won't have them in ten years' | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
time but they are also the generation that saw | :27:31. | :27:33. | |
So, does that lead you to believe that there will be... | :27:34. | :27:39. | |
There's never been a process of reconciliation but with | :27:40. | :27:42. | |
the passing of that generation, is it going to make reconciliation | :27:43. | :27:45. | |
Narendra Modi, the Prime Minister of India, is the first | :27:46. | :27:52. | |
Indian Prime Minister who was born after partition. | :27:53. | :27:54. | |
So, already the political class are now moving beyond and don't | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
In a way, I think that can also be much more dangerous. | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
I think the previous Prime Ministers, Manmohan Singh, | :28:04. | :28:06. | |
Atal Bihari Vajpayee, it was really part of their integral | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
being to try and find a reconciliation with Pakistan. | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
I think today politicians in India see religion | :28:15. | :28:17. | |
as something they can play with, really, much more in a way | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
because they haven't had that burning experience of having | :28:22. | :28:23. | |
It is interesting because in this particular anniversary, | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
more than I think ten years ago, we are hearing these voices | :28:29. | :28:31. | |
We are hearing shocking stories now which should, in a sense, | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
give people pause to think we never want to have that kind | :28:37. | :28:39. | |
And I think those stories have a place. | :28:40. | :28:46. | |
But I think we also need to bear in mind the risk of perhaps losing | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
sight of why things turned out the way they did. | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
In other words, why did it happen rather than just what happened. | :28:57. | :29:02. | |
And I think finding the balance is going to be quite a challenge. | :29:03. | :29:09. | |
I think what's happened is that partition is this founding moment | :29:10. | :29:12. | |
of the kind of myths of the two nations today. | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
And so much of what happens in the retelling of the stories | :29:17. | :29:22. | |
of that confirms those stories, that myth, really. | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
So I think until each of these nations starts to think | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
of itself differently, and imagines its possibilities | :29:31. | :29:33. | |
differently, I think you really are not going to be able to see | :29:34. | :29:36. | |
And there's a way in which, unfortunately, each of these | :29:37. | :29:43. | |
national governments today feeds off each other. | :29:44. | :29:52. | |
And, for me, as an Indian, one of the troubling things is that | :29:53. | :29:55. | |
India is now becoming more like Pakistan in the way that it | :29:56. | :29:58. | |
thinks about the relationship between religion and power | :29:59. | :30:00. | |
And that's a very troubling development. | :30:01. | :30:03. | |
At the moment of independence, the two men who had led | :30:04. | :30:10. | |
the negotiations with the British, Jawaharlal Nehru and | :30:11. | :30:12. | |
Mohammad Ali Jinnah, addressed their people | :30:13. | :30:15. | |
and the world in words of great idealism, | :30:16. | :30:17. | |
Long years ago, we made a tryst with destiny, | :30:18. | :30:26. | |
and now the time comes when we shall redeem our pledge, | :30:27. | :30:32. | |
not wholly or in full measure, but very substantially. | :30:33. | :30:41. | |
At the stroke of the midnight hour, when the world sleeps, India | :30:42. | :30:44. | |
A moment comes which comes but rarely in history when we step | :30:45. | :30:56. | |
out from the old to the new, when an age ends, and when | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
the soul of a nation long suppressed finds utterance. | :31:01. | :31:11. | |
At the dawn of history, India started on her unending quest | :31:12. | :31:17. | |
and trackless centuries have filled with her striving and the grandeur | :31:18. | :31:20. | |
Through good and ill fortune alike, she has never lost sight of that | :31:21. | :31:26. | |
quest or forgotten the ideals which gave her strength. | :31:27. | :31:34. | |
We end today a period of ill fortune, and India | :31:35. | :31:36. | |
The achievement we celebrate today is but a step, | :31:37. | :31:44. | |
an opening of opportunity to the greater triumphs | :31:45. | :31:46. | |
Now, if we want to make this great state of Pakistan | :31:47. | :31:57. | |
happy and prosperous, we should concentrate | :31:58. | :32:00. | |
solely and wholly on the well-being of the people. | :32:01. | :32:06. | |
If you will work in cooperation, forgetting the past, | :32:07. | :32:15. | |
burying the hatchet, you are bound to succeed. | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
If you change your past and work together in a spirit | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
that every one of you, no matter what community he belongs | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
to, no matter what relation he had with you in the past, | :32:30. | :32:41. | |
no matter what his colour, caste or creed, he is first, | :32:42. | :32:44. | |
second and last a citizen of this state. | :32:45. | :32:46. | |
Equal rights, privileges, and obligations. | :32:47. | :32:54. | |
There is no end to the progress that you will make. | :32:55. | :32:57. | |
You are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques. | :32:58. | :33:05. | |
Or any other place of worship in this state of Pakistan. | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
You may belong to any religion or caste or creed. | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
That has nothing to do with the business of the state. | :33:14. | :33:19. | |
We are starting with this fundamental principle | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
that we are all citizens, all equal citizens in the one state. | :33:25. | :33:36. | |
Those speeches signalled the emergence of two new nations | :33:37. | :33:38. | |
and the beginning of the end of British Empire. | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
At its height, it controlled 23% of the world's population, | :33:43. | :33:44. | |
But in the decades since Empire came crashing down, have we ever properly | :33:45. | :33:52. | |
examined its effect and legacy for us all? | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
With me now to discuss this are the historians, Yasmin Khan, | :33:58. | :34:00. | |
Joya Chatterji and Alex von Tunzelmann. | :34:01. | :34:04. | |
But before I speak to them, I'd first like to call | :34:05. | :34:07. | |
upon Dennis Wilde, who was an officer in | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
the British Indian Army in Lahore on the day of partition. | :34:12. | :34:13. | |
What, Dennis Wilde, did the end of the British Empire look like to you? | :34:14. | :34:19. | |
Well, I don't think, as a young army officer, | :34:20. | :34:22. | |
I don't think we were really old enough to think strongly | :34:23. | :34:32. | |
But, having said that, I think we all realised that it | :34:33. | :34:44. | |
It took place in dreadful circumstances, where Sikhs | :34:45. | :34:53. | |
and Hindus murdered Muslims and vice versa. | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
It made an impact on me because I happened to be in Lahore | :34:59. | :35:05. | |
at the time and I couldn't get away back to Burma, | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
And one heard terrible stories of the chaos | :35:10. | :35:17. | |
and the slaughter that had gone on, which was being cleared up | :35:18. | :35:20. | |
while we were sitting, waiting to get a train back | :35:21. | :35:22. | |
You didn't have much of a good word to say about Mountbatten. | :35:23. | :35:36. | |
my opinion, Mountbatten was too precipitate. | :35:37. | :35:49. | |
I think he was a man who had made a huge name for himself. | :35:50. | :36:02. | |
He was the Southeast Asian command supremo, | :36:03. | :36:04. | |
He was approached by Attlee to become the Viceroy of India | :36:05. | :36:10. | |
and speed up the whole process, which she did. | :36:11. | :36:12. | |
I think it all happened too horribly. | :36:13. | :36:15. | |
We're just coming now to look at a talk about Empire. | :36:16. | :36:22. | |
Do you think we've ever really come to terms, Joya, | :36:23. | :36:25. | |
I'm not sure who we are, in your question. | :36:26. | :36:28. | |
Interestingly, I think all of us in different ways, actually. | :36:29. | :36:36. | |
If we're talking about the subjects of British Empire, curiously, | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
I would say to a greater or lesser extent, we have. | :36:41. | :36:42. | |
I think this generation growing up probably doesn't | :36:43. | :36:52. | |
about the issues that bothered us so greatly about colonial | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
When it comes to looking at British people, I think perhaps the answer | :36:57. | :37:04. | |
I think even so, again, here we have to be careful | :37:05. | :37:11. | |
about disaggregating between different sections | :37:12. | :37:12. | |
of British opinion, I would be inclined to say that, | :37:13. | :37:15. | |
no, there hasn't been that much moving on. | :37:16. | :37:18. | |
There's a great deal of nostalgia for an imagined Empire | :37:19. | :37:21. | |
about which people are hugely and strangely ill informed. | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
They are not taught about what it was or what it actually | :37:26. | :37:28. | |
Unwillingness to understand that Empire was not | :37:29. | :37:34. | |
So, actually, one of the ways in which one can think | :37:35. | :37:47. | |
about the meaning of Empire today is to bring up that awful word | :37:48. | :37:53. | |
which you probably don't want me to bring up, | :37:54. | :37:55. | |
When I woke up this morning, or when I woke up on the morning | :37:56. | :38:01. | |
of Brexit, I thought, this is probably what 15th | :38:02. | :38:04. | |
Is there any defence, do you think, of Empire that can be | :38:05. | :38:23. | |
mounted when you hear people saying it was all about infrastructure and, | :38:24. | :38:26. | |
in fact, the law in India was well made law, and it was the biggest | :38:27. | :38:30. | |
democracy in the world, and still is one of the biggest | :38:31. | :38:32. | |
democracies in the world, can you mount that kind of defence? | :38:33. | :38:35. | |
Not very convincingly, in all honesty. | :38:36. | :38:37. | |
It wasn't the biggest democracy in the world | :38:38. | :38:38. | |
Yes, but that's got very little to do with the British. | :38:39. | :38:46. | |
In terms of defending the British Empire, I think... | :38:47. | :38:53. | |
Current research really points much less to it being a sort of coherent | :38:54. | :38:56. | |
project and much more to it being very chaotic throughout, | :38:57. | :38:59. | |
Of course, it was begun as a private company, | :39:00. | :39:02. | |
We are in a situation now, and you absolutely make | :39:03. | :39:13. | |
the distinction about who remembers Empire and in what way. | :39:14. | :39:15. | |
Just before I come onto Yasmin, I want to talk about this because, | :39:16. | :39:18. | |
actually, it's not just, as it were, the idea the British | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
It's also the Belgians and the Congo, it's also | :39:23. | :39:26. | |
You know, Empire's something the British just don't | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
I mean, it's lots of different things and I think the confusion | :39:32. | :39:49. | |
sets in when people think it is a moral slur on individuals | :39:50. | :39:52. | |
because there were plenty of people's parents and grandparents | :39:53. | :39:54. | |
who were working as irrigation officers | :39:55. | :39:55. | |
And I think they feel sensitive about that. | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
The thing is, ultimately and fundamentally, it is structured | :40:00. | :40:01. | |
That is the basic premise of Empire, is that one group of people has | :40:02. | :40:05. | |
the right to rule over another and have more responsibilities, | :40:06. | :40:08. | |
And, so, I think when you look at it from a modern perspective | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
of supporting democracy and racial equality, it's just really | :40:14. | :40:15. | |
Britain's littered in strange municipal parks with statues to men | :40:16. | :40:29. | |
of Empire who nobody wants to remember now. | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
I wonder, just bringing Andrews in here, because you've studied | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
all this, the sociology of all this, tell me, when we're looking | :40:40. | :40:42. | |
at Empire, we find it very difficult in this country. | :40:43. | :40:44. | |
I would say white people find it very difficult to imagine | :40:45. | :40:47. | |
what Empire actually has done for them now. | :40:48. | :40:49. | |
What it should be is, it should be a stain | :40:50. | :40:54. | |
Unfortunately, 59% of British people believe it was a good thing | :40:55. | :40:58. | |
because of the deficits in our school system. | :40:59. | :41:00. | |
And I think partition's a really good example | :41:01. | :41:02. | |
So you have that colonial arrogance that you can redraw a map and it | :41:03. | :41:12. | |
doesn't matter if 12 million people have to move, the same way | :41:13. | :41:14. | |
You have the callous disregard for black and brown lives. | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
You see the slave trade, you see it in Africa, | :41:19. | :41:21. | |
you see it in India, and this is what Empire is. | :41:22. | :41:23. | |
This whole idea about drawing lines, there was this great | :41:24. | :41:30. | |
You can also see that in the following year, 1948, | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
Palestine was partitioned, which has also not turned | :41:36. | :41:37. | |
And also, Iraq that year was stuck together, which also hasn't | :41:38. | :41:46. | |
So I think we can probably say on the evidence | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
of that year that this kind of very high level line drawing | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
on map and then run away state building isn't very successful. | :41:56. | :41:57. | |
But, Yasmin, in order to move forward in this country, | :41:58. | :42:02. | |
do we have to address Empire and in a way | :42:03. | :42:04. | |
I think atonement is a different thing but I think it's our history. | :42:05. | :42:12. | |
When people think about British history in segregation from Empire, | :42:13. | :42:24. | |
to me, that's just unthinkable because the institutions of state, | :42:25. | :42:30. | |
the economy and the people who are here living in Britain, | :42:31. | :42:32. | |
We are all children of Empire, so just to put it in a box | :42:33. | :42:38. | |
as somehow a separate subject denies its fundamental | :42:39. | :42:40. | |
importance to the origins of the modern British state. | :42:41. | :42:42. | |
I think we also need to get away from ideas about it | :42:43. | :42:45. | |
We have heard from some people tonight who did experience it. | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
And they may have their own opinions, but very few of us had | :42:51. | :42:53. | |
It's more about trying to understand why it happened, | :42:54. | :42:56. | |
Why do we find it so difficult in this country to talk about Empire? | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
It's something that is 300 years of the way we behaved and, | :43:02. | :43:04. | |
yet, we set it aside because it's too difficult. | :43:05. | :43:06. | |
I mean, I think there are lots of ways one could try | :43:07. | :43:12. | |
and start moving towards discussions about Empire which perhaps focus | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
more on the positive contributions that we see for instance in this | :43:18. | :43:20. | |
room, of diversity, of flows of goods and people. | :43:21. | :43:22. | |
It was partly incoherent, but it was also largely an economic | :43:23. | :43:29. | |
And as we sit today through a moment of deglobalisation, we can | :43:30. | :43:37. | |
reflect in interesting ways on what it was and what it wasn't | :43:38. | :43:40. | |
and what its legacies have been and what they might | :43:41. | :43:43. | |
And also, there is a new narrative now, which is that India | :43:44. | :43:47. | |
And we are actually going to be looking, | :43:48. | :43:52. | |
going as supplicants to India, in a way, for a lot more trade. | :43:53. | :43:55. | |
But there's also, I think, a misapprehension in many minds, | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
at least in terms of what I've seen, about the approach that Britain's | :44:01. | :44:06. | |
When it goes as a supplicant, there is an assumption that Britain | :44:07. | :44:13. | |
is going to be embraced as long lost friends. | :44:14. | :44:17. | |
That is not how Britain is perceived out there. | :44:18. | :44:21. | |
The sooner the British recognise that, the better. | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
But there is some friendliness towards the British. | :44:27. | :44:28. | |
The term global Britain that Theresa May used the term | :44:29. | :44:41. | |
that is her very differently around the world. | :44:42. | :44:48. | |
They remember global Britain differently. | :44:49. | :44:51. | |
I have spoken to some Indians who say, ask me about Europe. | :44:52. | :44:54. | |
They want to deal with big blocks of commercial power. | :44:55. | :44:56. | |
Now, Empire may be long gone, but its legacy is imprinted | :44:57. | :45:12. | |
In 1948, the government passed an act allowing all citizens | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
of the former colonies to live and work in Britain and help | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
rebuild after the ravages of the Second World War, | :45:22. | :45:24. | |
That open invitation lasted until the early 1960s, | :45:25. | :45:32. | |
and these British citizens that came from South Asia were among those | :45:33. | :45:35. | |
who began the transformation of the way Britain looks today. | :45:36. | :45:41. | |
Canon Roden, what did you know about what happened? | :45:42. | :45:50. | |
Well, I was at secondary school in the 70s, and I learned | :45:51. | :45:55. | |
about Clive of India, and I learned about | :45:56. | :45:57. | |
And then I learned about Gandhi by watching the film. | :45:58. | :46:05. | |
That was the sum total of my historical knowledge. | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
So you decided to do something about it. | :46:10. | :46:11. | |
I thought, I am sure my children, who were at school, I am sure | :46:12. | :46:20. | |
they will be learning all about India and Pakistan | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
and Bangladesh in their history, and then I realised | :46:25. | :46:27. | |
they were learning less than I was learning. | :46:28. | :46:32. | |
The sticking point seemed to be the terribly sad story | :46:33. | :46:37. | |
And that was making teachers very shy of teaching Indian history. | :46:38. | :46:45. | |
So we then tried to set about a method by which we might be | :46:46. | :46:49. | |
able to try and put the Indian history into the school curriculum, | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
And when you tried to educate people, what was the response? | :46:54. | :47:03. | |
Well, I think people would say, "We just didn't know this stuff." | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
At the moment, the history curriculum is Hitler and the Henrys, | :47:09. | :47:10. | |
essentially, and it's not good enough. | :47:11. | :47:14. | |
We have millions of people of South Asian descent in this | :47:15. | :47:17. | |
country, and it's not serving us well. | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
So if partition is the most difficult thing that is stopping us | :47:23. | :47:28. | |
telling the South Asian story, the key thing seemed to be to find | :47:29. | :47:31. | |
So we have been using drama, a very fine play written | :47:32. | :47:37. | |
We got various children in from Luton to watch the play, | :47:38. | :47:48. | |
and then we got the Runnymede Trust in to evaluate how that went. | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
Luckily, we got an Arts Council grant and that play | :47:53. | :48:03. | |
But, really, the government ought to shove this onto the National | :48:04. | :48:09. | |
And to discuss this further, I'm joined by the composer | :48:10. | :48:22. | |
Nitin Sawhney, Shelina Jan-mohamed, author of Generation M and Love | :48:23. | :48:26. | |
in a Headscarf and the writer and broadcaster Sarfraz Manzoor. | :48:27. | :48:31. | |
These narratives that we have about partition in British Asian | :48:32. | :48:39. | |
I think it is partly about whether they get heard. | :48:40. | :48:48. | |
One of the interesting things about the 70th anniversary is that | :48:49. | :48:50. | |
My mum's 84 and never talked about any of this stuff. | :48:51. | :48:54. | |
I think part of it is these stories are so traumatic people didn't | :48:55. | :48:57. | |
want to talk about it but also I don't think there's as much | :48:58. | :49:00. | |
of this oral tradition, in a way, of storytelling so, | :49:01. | :49:07. | |
the only way you can sort of own the part is if you know it. | :49:08. | :49:11. | |
At the moment, I don't feel kids are taught it in schools, | :49:12. | :49:14. | |
and for a long time they haven't been taught it in | :49:15. | :49:16. | |
It's interesting you're saying your mum's talked | :49:17. | :49:19. | |
Has that been very difficult for her? | :49:20. | :49:22. | |
What has been quite interesting, in a way, is that often you see... | :49:23. | :49:25. | |
One of the things that's been interesting about the Radio 4 | :49:26. | :49:28. | |
documentary and these programmes, and some of the people you can see, | :49:29. | :49:31. | |
you see these people, they look old, and they look like if you just | :49:32. | :49:34. | |
walked past them, you might just think they are sort of, you know, | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
And you hear their stories, you see there is horror and pain | :49:38. | :49:46. | |
When I listen to my mum, it made me think about her as a 13-year-old | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
girl and seeing all this stuff and hearing these kinds of things. | :49:52. | :49:54. | |
In a way, you're brought back to what these people | :49:55. | :49:56. | |
were like as children rather than as old people. | :49:57. | :49:59. | |
Nitin Sawhney, these stories in your family must | :50:00. | :50:00. | |
I mean, my dad was 20 during the time partition. | :50:01. | :50:05. | |
He came down from Lahore at that time into India and my mum was 11. | :50:06. | :50:08. | |
And they do have very dark and awful stories of bloodshed, and so on. | :50:09. | :50:12. | |
But, at the same time, I think they came to England | :50:13. | :50:15. | |
And I guess one of the legacies is that there is a real sense | :50:16. | :50:21. | |
of resisting racism, to be honest, which I think | :50:22. | :50:24. | |
they passed down to us, to actually really understand | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
Shelina, there is an issue with conversations between the different | :50:29. | :50:34. | |
British Asian communities to discuss this. | :50:35. | :50:37. | |
I've really felt over the last week or so with all this coverage | :50:38. | :50:40. | |
of partition that actually the barometer's felt very emotional. | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
I've sat in front of the TV and cried tears at some | :50:45. | :50:47. | |
of these stories and, actually, what other side, | :50:48. | :50:50. | |
whatever country, origin you're from, your heritage, | :50:51. | :50:52. | |
there's been something about loss and heartbreak that has brought | :50:53. | :50:55. | |
people together and, actually, I think that's rather | :50:56. | :50:57. | |
poignant and ironic given that, actually, we talk about partition | :50:58. | :51:01. | |
but, actually, we ought to talk more about independence. | :51:02. | :51:05. | |
Because this ought to have been a moment of great joy for people | :51:06. | :51:08. | |
And it's very interesting in the UK we talk so much | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
about partition and we don't talk about independence. | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
In a way, that's part of the discussion of trying to think | :51:17. | :51:19. | |
about Empire as this benevolent good thing. | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
Actually, when independence was granted, it could have been done | :51:24. | :51:25. | |
in a completely different way but instead we talk about partition | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
as a sort of trouble of the colonised that made it all go | :51:30. | :51:33. | |
wrong when the seeds of this terrible man-made disaster | :51:34. | :51:35. | |
were in the way that independence was granted. | :51:36. | :51:37. | |
It is good now to have this particular anniversary | :51:38. | :51:44. | |
where we are hearing, as you say, so many more stories. | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
But I wonder, I'm now going to go to the audience | :51:49. | :51:53. | |
You are a Hindu woman married to a Muslim in this country | :51:54. | :52:04. | |
and still the communities, on many levels, are still entirely | :52:05. | :52:07. | |
separate and lots of people within the communities themselves, | :52:08. | :52:09. | |
I wonder what your story is and how your family dealt with it. | :52:10. | :52:16. | |
So, my story is my mother was 17 when she left Lahore. | :52:17. | :52:23. | |
And I guess the genesis of who I chose to marry is the seeds | :52:24. | :52:26. | |
are there in her story, which is that her life was saved | :52:27. | :52:29. | |
by a Muslim neighbour, so he was her brother. | :52:30. | :52:35. | |
He enabled my grandmother and my mother and her sister to escape, | :52:36. | :52:39. | |
The train after everyone was slaughtered. | :52:40. | :52:44. | |
They arrived where they were sheltered by Sikh family, | :52:45. | :52:47. | |
and then she was harassed by Hindu men for being on her own. | :52:48. | :52:50. | |
What she showed me was the complexity of conflict and violence. | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
So she kind of stepped away from saying Muslims do | :52:56. | :52:58. | |
this, or reducing people to their identity, and she spoke | :52:59. | :53:01. | |
of horror, but she also spoke of compassion. | :53:02. | :53:05. | |
And, in a sense, was that a way in which you felt at ease | :53:06. | :53:08. | |
It is a very clear message in any Hindu-Sikh household, | :53:09. | :53:18. | |
do not marry somebody who comes from a Muslim background. | :53:19. | :53:20. | |
It's the whole history of Hinduism, Islam in India, seekers. | :53:21. | :53:28. | |
So, the idea is that partition still reverberates in the lives | :53:29. | :53:34. | |
One of the things I think is very interesting about the potential | :53:35. | :53:42. | |
ripples through it are one of the things when you hear | :53:43. | :53:44. | |
people talk pre-47, you hear people saying, | :53:45. | :53:46. | |
as you've heard, Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus barely | :53:47. | :53:48. | |
knew what their faith was when they turned up to each | :53:49. | :53:51. | |
Pre-9/11, and definitely pre the Iranian revolution, | :53:52. | :53:58. | |
there was a sense of migrant communities basically being Asian. | :53:59. | :54:02. | |
What's happened since 9/11 and after 7/7 is there has been that | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
increased fragmentation and identification by religion, | :54:07. | :54:08. | |
which is exactly what happened after '47, | :54:09. | :54:11. | |
so there are these parallels of identification by | :54:12. | :54:13. | |
The way that we frame the story of independence and partition is... | :54:14. | :54:22. | |
And I speak as somebody who's of Indian heritage, | :54:23. | :54:25. | |
that India is seen as the great inheritor of the greater India | :54:26. | :54:28. | |
and somehow Pakistan and Bangladesh, which, | :54:29. | :54:30. | |
by the way, hasn't been mentioned today. | :54:31. | :54:32. | |
They are somehow the problem children. | :54:33. | :54:37. | |
They're seen as the problem children and that reflects back | :54:38. | :54:44. | |
on the way that we talk about subcontinental communities. | :54:45. | :54:48. | |
This week the Sun published a column about the Muslim problem. | :54:49. | :54:51. | |
So these echoes have regenerated through the years. | :54:52. | :54:55. | |
One of the youngest numbers of the audience is here. | :54:56. | :54:58. | |
You're going to be very honest and I'm going to ask you, what did | :54:59. | :55:01. | |
you actually know about the homeland that your family inhabited? | :55:02. | :55:09. | |
I only knew when I was eight years old that | :55:10. | :55:11. | |
my grandmother came from India to Pakistan. | :55:12. | :55:17. | |
Before then, I had no idea that they were one country before. | :55:18. | :55:20. | |
And I didn't know anything about empire. | :55:21. | :55:22. | |
No one taught it to me, so I didn't learn about it until I was eight. | :55:23. | :55:26. | |
And your family never talked about the idea that they had come | :55:27. | :55:29. | |
from one country and that it had been divided? | :55:30. | :55:34. | |
Well, they might have done, but I probably wasn't | :55:35. | :55:38. | |
It is not taught in schools, Nitin, and I wonder if the divisions exist | :55:39. | :55:45. | |
because many families don't talk about it to their children and they | :55:46. | :55:51. | |
think, all I know is that I am not to marry a Muslim. | :55:52. | :55:54. | |
My parents were very complimentary about other religions. | :55:55. | :56:06. | |
But at the same time, they always said, you should embrace all | :56:07. | :56:11. | |
religions and all different ways of thinking. | :56:12. | :56:13. | |
And I grew up listening to great music like Ravi Shankar and lots | :56:14. | :56:18. | |
As somebody mentioned earlier, food is something we all have in common, | :56:19. | :56:28. | |
but music is also a great celebration of life. | :56:29. | :56:33. | |
So, do you think that divisions in the British Asian | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
community can be closed without a reconciliation | :56:38. | :56:39. | |
I personally think that this amnesia or ignorance that people | :56:40. | :56:47. | |
have, partly through education, I think there is an opportunity there | :56:48. | :56:51. | |
as well, because if people realise that there was a time pre-1947 when | :56:52. | :56:55. | |
they were together, if people realise the role that the British | :56:56. | :57:02. | |
had in creating some of those problems, | :57:03. | :57:04. | |
if they also realise the ties that bind Britain | :57:05. | :57:07. | |
perhaps some of the existential issues of identity facing the second | :57:08. | :57:11. | |
and third generation could be alleviated. | :57:12. | :57:14. | |
We were talking about the idea of the | :57:15. | :57:16. | |
Indians having this idea of a greater Indian. | :57:17. | :57:18. | |
Coming from Pakistani heritage, there is an | :57:19. | :57:20. | |
existential crisis of, how do you feel loyal to a country | :57:21. | :57:23. | |
How can you feel proud about something which is | :57:24. | :57:30. | |
So there are existential questions on that side as well. | :57:31. | :57:36. | |
Do you think this is a defining moment and that the trauma | :57:37. | :57:39. | |
of partition will never go away, but there is something in this | :57:40. | :57:42. | |
I think there is an opportunity because of the way these human | :57:43. | :57:47. | |
It doesn't matter which side of the divide your family came from, | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
There was huge trauma, and that trauma continues | :57:53. | :57:56. | |
It is important when we have the conversation about, | :57:57. | :58:02. | |
what was empire, that the broader British community is in that. | :58:03. | :58:06. | |
This is a discussion that everybody needs to have with honesty. | :58:07. | :58:12. | |
We have to understand that actually, the place we are in today | :58:13. | :58:16. | |
and recognising our place in the world depends | :58:17. | :58:18. | |
That's it from the Radio Theatre at Broadcasting House. | :58:19. | :58:34. | |
From all our guests both on the stage and in our audience, | :58:35. | :58:37. | |
Weather-wise, August is the month that keeps on giving. A cool and | :58:38. | :59:49. | |
fresh start Wednesday morning after a chilly night, but at least lots of | :59:50. | :59:50. |