Browse content similar to 16/08/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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The unseen border on the island of Ireland | :00:00. | :00:10. | |
is the latest political dividing line in the Brexit battle. | :00:11. | :00:12. | |
Want to see how soft this border is right now? | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
That van is in the Republic, now it's in the UK. | :00:17. | :00:19. | |
The only hint it's gone from one country to another - | :00:20. | :00:22. | |
the speed-limit signs go from metric to Imperial. | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
And as the British Government publishes its post-Brexit | :00:27. | :00:28. | |
vision for the border, we ask Ireland's Foreign Secretary, | :00:29. | :00:30. | |
A president who seems to side with white supremicists? | :00:31. | :00:38. | |
Is Donald Trump a racist or just another politician | :00:39. | :00:40. | |
We ask his former adviser whether he thinks the president | :00:41. | :00:48. | |
And a story straight out of a Nordic drama. | :00:49. | :00:54. | |
Last week, a Danish rocket engineer was arrested and is being kept | :00:55. | :00:56. | |
in custody as police investigate the circumstances around | :00:57. | :00:59. | |
the disappearance of journalist Kim Wall. | :01:00. | :01:02. | |
I mean, it's really bizarre, it's really bizarre. | :01:03. | :01:13. | |
I mean, he's been out there a lot with people, | :01:14. | :01:16. | |
I've been sailing with him in the submarine. | :01:17. | :01:17. | |
Obviously, he had girls out with him sailing and all that, | :01:18. | :01:20. | |
but what happened that particular day, I've absolutely no idea. | :01:21. | :01:37. | |
Today, the Government published another position | :01:38. | :01:39. | |
paper in the long-running Brexit negotiation saga. | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
Buckle up - we with have at least two more years | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
This briefing, following hot on the heels of proposals | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
regarding the customs union, concerns the UK's position | :01:53. | :01:55. | |
on the Irish border and focuses on the need to avoid a hard border. | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
Northern Ireland is the only part of the UK that will share a land | :02:00. | :02:03. | |
The Government stresses that there should be | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
no new physical infrastructure - such as customs posts or CCTV - | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
at the 300 mile-long border, which has about 200 crossing points. | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
Critics have labelled the document as vague on detail | :02:18. | :02:19. | |
and lambasted the plan as a border smugglers' charter. | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
David Grossman has been crossing the border himself today, | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
If you want to see the complexity of the Irish border in action, | :02:28. | :02:40. | |
follow the tourists to the Guinness brewery in Dublin. | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
Although the famous black liquid is brewed here in Dublin, | :02:47. | :02:48. | |
Some of it is then transported two hours north to Belfast to be bottled | :02:49. | :02:56. | |
and canned and then loaded back onto trucks to travel back | :02:57. | :02:59. | |
It's the sort of interwoven supply chain that's replicated | :03:00. | :03:05. | |
And for those companies, a hard border would be a disaster. | :03:06. | :03:13. | |
The Government's position paper, published today, | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
suggests that lorries like this will, in future, | :03:17. | :03:19. | |
be tracked using new technology to create a frictionless border. | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
As we look forward to Brexit, of course, we do want to ensure | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
that we don't see a return to the borders of the past, we don't | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
see a return to a hard border, and that we're able to ensure | :03:33. | :03:35. | |
that the crucial flow of goods and people between Northern Ireland | :03:36. | :03:38. | |
and the Republic of Ireland is able to continue in the future. | :03:39. | :03:41. | |
At the 15 main road border points, 118,000 vehicles cross each day - | :03:42. | :03:48. | |
80 or more smaller crossing points where data isn't collected. | :03:49. | :03:58. | |
The official estimate is that, in total, | :03:59. | :04:00. | |
there are 110 million crossings by people each year. | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
Wants to see how soft this border is right now? | :04:06. | :04:08. | |
That van is in the Republic, now it's in the UK. | :04:09. | :04:10. | |
The only hint it's gone from one country to another - | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
the speed-limit signs go from metric to Imperial. | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
The UK Government says it should stay as soft as this - | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
no border guards, no buildings, no barriers. | :04:24. | :04:24. | |
At the West Belfast office of Sinn Fein, which campaigned | :04:25. | :04:32. | |
against leaving the EU, they're sceptical that this | :04:33. | :04:35. | |
frictionless, technology-enabled border can actually work. | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
They haven't yet indicated how these technical solutions | :04:41. | :04:43. | |
All the people that we're talking to from the business community, | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
from government departments, all argue that any technical | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
solution will still add at least to further bureaucracy and | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
further barriers to trade, movement of people and citizenship rights | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
and so on, so we see no evidence that there are technical solutions | :05:01. | :05:03. | |
which will not create further barriers on the island of Ireland, | :05:04. | :05:06. | |
which is something we will all be determined to avoid and prevent. | :05:07. | :05:13. | |
In 2015, ?2.7 billion worth of goods | :05:14. | :05:15. | |
was sold from Northern Ireland to the Republic. | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
However, this is dwarfed by the 10.7 billion | :05:22. | :05:23. | |
that was sold from Northern Ireland to Great Britain. | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
This is why the UK Government position paper rejects the idea that | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
some have come up with of moving the border from where it is now | :05:33. | :05:35. | |
to the Irish Sea, to allow the island of Ireland | :05:36. | :05:38. | |
The Government has said that the idea of moving the border | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
is both constitutionally and economically wrong. | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
That is music to the ears of the DUP, the party which is now, | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
to support Theresa May's administration. | :05:52. | :05:59. | |
We will not accept, and the Government has now said | :06:00. | :06:02. | |
it will not accept, special status for Northern Ireland | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
which removes Northern Ireland from the rest of the United Kingdom | :06:08. | :06:10. | |
And don't forget, it's the Irish Government and the EU | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
negotiators who have said they do not wish to upset the terms | :06:15. | :06:17. | |
And the terms of the Good Friday agreement make it quite clear | :06:18. | :06:23. | |
that the constitutional status of Northern Ireland cannot be | :06:24. | :06:26. | |
changed unless there is a clear majority in Northern Ireland | :06:27. | :06:28. | |
So the Guinness, and the thousands of other products, | :06:29. | :06:36. | |
keep flowing across the border unchallenged for now. | :06:37. | :06:39. | |
Today's position paper is designed to put pressure on both the EU | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
and the Irish government to help keep it that way. | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
But what does the Irish government think of the proposals? | :06:50. | :06:52. | |
I spoke to Simon Coveney, Ireland's Foreign Secretary, | :06:53. | :06:55. | |
I began by asking whether he welcomed the Government's proposals. | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
Well, certainly, I think we welcome the publication | :07:01. | :07:03. | |
of a detailed written document, and we've been calling now for | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
quite some time for a detailed paper from the British Government | :07:08. | :07:10. | |
on what their aspirations are in the context | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
of Ireland and Northern Ireland, for the Brexit negotiations, | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
There's a lot of good stuff in it from our perspective, | :07:20. | :07:27. | |
very strong language in terms of protecting the Good Friday | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
agreement in full, very strong, supportive language around what's | :07:32. | :07:33. | |
called the common travel area, which for many, many years, | :07:34. | :07:36. | |
long before we joined the European Union, has allowed | :07:37. | :07:38. | |
British people in Ireland and Irish people in Britain to enjoy | :07:39. | :07:41. | |
There has been suggestions, up until now, coming from | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
some sources of the UK that, look, we can solve | :07:45. | :07:47. | |
this problem by technology, by putting cameras on the border, | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
having numberplate recognition systems. | :07:52. | :07:53. | |
And I've always been very sceptical of that, | :07:54. | :07:55. | |
and so that why it is very welcome today that the British Government | :07:56. | :07:58. | |
is saying clearly that there will be no infrastructure | :07:59. | :08:00. | |
Let's just say your counterparts in Brussels, the 26 other countries, | :08:01. | :08:08. | |
do not go for this and we end up with no deal, as Theresa May | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
has said might be the case, and let's say we are in a situation | :08:13. | :08:15. | |
where the UK allows chlorinated chicken from America - | :08:16. | :08:18. | |
will that be a circumstance within which | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
the Irish government will erect some kind of border? | :08:22. | :08:27. | |
Well, you know, if Britain decide to take an approach | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
that clearly applies different food safety standards to Britain, | :08:32. | :08:33. | |
including Northern Ireland, to the common market | :08:34. | :08:36. | |
in the European Union, then we have a real problem. | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
There are two partners in this negotiation. | :08:40. | :08:41. | |
The other happens to represent 27 other countries, | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
so what we have today from Britain, which is welcome, | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
is an approach to the negotiations, much of which is very much supported | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
by the Irish government, but we will have to thrash | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
through the issues, find compromises, make sure | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
that we protect the integrity of the European Union in | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
these negotiations, as well as try to facilitate British ambition. | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
The idea that Britain is going to be able to negotiate its own free-trade | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
agreements with countries all over the world and at the same time | :09:11. | :09:13. | |
expect barrier-free access into the single market, | :09:14. | :09:16. | |
I don't think that that in itself is realistic. | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
But if the final deal on the Irish border came back with, | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
let's say the other 26 members of the European Union wanting | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
a harder border solution, would you veto the deal? | :09:30. | :09:35. | |
Well, I'm not going to talk about what ifs at this stage, | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
we are part of the other negotiating side, | :09:39. | :09:40. | |
we are part of the EU negotiating team. | :09:41. | :09:42. | |
Michel Barnier has been very vocal and very protective | :09:43. | :09:48. | |
of Irish interests to date, because he has made it very clear | :09:49. | :09:51. | |
that Irish interests are European interests. | :09:52. | :09:52. | |
This, in many ways, is a test of the European Union in terms | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
of how it protects small member states, which is exactly what it | :09:58. | :10:00. | |
needs to do here in the context of the consequences | :10:01. | :10:03. | |
In your statement today, you said you would be realistic and fair, | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
but "We will also be stubborn in relation to defending | :10:09. | :10:11. | |
If you were in a situation where a hard border was favoured | :10:12. | :10:17. | |
by your fellow members, I presume you would be stubborn | :10:18. | :10:19. | |
then in vetoing it, that is what I am testing, your resolve. | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
I don't think we will be in that place, because the EU has already | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
shown a willingness to show real flexibility to try to accommodate | :10:29. | :10:30. | |
what are very real vulnerabilities for Ireland in the context of Brexit | :10:31. | :10:33. | |
- and Britain also in the context of Northern Ireland. | :10:34. | :10:36. | |
And so we need to work this out and find the political solution | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
is that, in my view, effectively allows Northern Ireland | :10:41. | :10:43. | |
to become an extension of the EU customs union, | :10:44. | :10:46. | |
to create equivalence north and south of the border that can | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
allow the free movement not only of people but also of goods. | :10:51. | :10:52. | |
We also need to find a solution for services. | :10:53. | :10:55. | |
The British Government talks about the need for a common energy | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
market north and south, because they are totally | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
So all of these things are part of the complexity | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
of Brexit, which of course is a consequence of leaving. | :11:10. | :11:11. | |
And you know, Ireland is a country that had nothing to do | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
with the decision for Britain to leave the European Union | :11:15. | :11:17. | |
but is very much now in the middle of the debate to try and ensure | :11:18. | :11:20. | |
that we protect ourselves in that context. | :11:21. | :11:22. | |
And that is what I mean when I say that Ireland | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
will be fair and realistic, but also stubborn. | :11:26. | :11:27. | |
If we believe that these negotiations are moving | :11:28. | :11:29. | |
in the wrong direction, if we believe the British | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
Government is being unreasonable, we will say so. | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
I mean, I believe that Ireland is actually Britain's closest | :11:39. | :11:41. | |
friend here in the context of Brexit, and friends need | :11:42. | :11:43. | |
I think some of the aspirations that I've heard are not realistic - | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
in the context of the Brexit negotiations - | :11:49. | :11:50. | |
and I need to be honest about that, but I think a lot of what we've seen | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
today in the Irish and Northern Ireland paper coming | :11:55. | :11:57. | |
from the British Government is really good. | :11:58. | :12:04. | |
The Irish Foreign Minister, Simon Coveney, who I was speaking | :12:05. | :12:06. | |
or a racial slur from a politician who should know better? | :12:07. | :12:13. | |
Earlier today, Sarah Champion - the Shadow Women | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
and Equalities Minister - resigned from Labour's front bench | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
after a row erupted about an article she penned for the Sun newspaper. | :12:22. | :12:24. | |
"British Pakistani men are raping and exploiting white girls, | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
In the opinion piece, she wrote that "We must accept | :12:29. | :12:36. | |
for gang-related child sexual exploitation, the convictions | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
have largely been against British Pakistani men." | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
She has now apologised for the offence caused | :12:46. | :12:47. | |
by her "extremely poor choice of words". | :12:48. | :12:49. | |
But does she have anything to say sorry for? | :12:50. | :12:51. | |
I'm joined now in the studio by Muhbeen Hussain, | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
the founder of British Muslim Youth, and from Salford by Amina Lone, | :12:55. | :12:57. | |
from the Social Action and Research Foundation. | :12:58. | :13:03. | |
Let me come to you first, Amina, was Sarah champion right to resign from | :13:04. | :13:11. | |
her post as shadow women and Equalities Minister? No, I don't | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
think she was, I think she has been punished for a subsequent Collen in | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
the same paper that referenced her article. And she also said in her | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
article that the vast majority of convictions are against white men | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
acting alone. We don't see an outcry from white men. It is understandable | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
that those crimes are mostly committed by white men in this | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
country, but she was specific about a certain type of crime from the | :13:39. | :13:41. | |
community, with cultural differences, and I think she is | :13:42. | :13:44. | |
being punished and used as a scapegoat because she is an easy | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
target as a politician. She was very specific about the type of crime she | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
was talking about, she has been made a scapegoat? The one thing that we | :13:55. | :13:57. | |
have to be very clear on, it isn't racist to say that Pakistani men are | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
overrepresented there when it comes to on street grooming, as it is not | :14:04. | :14:06. | |
racist to say that when you look at the majority of child exploitation, | :14:07. | :14:12. | |
white men are, in terms of convictions and prosecutions... | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
Should she have lost their position? I will come to that. She resigned | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
because she had claimed that she found... She condemned the headline, | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
she did not agree with it, and what came out from her office manager was | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
that she was not only accepting of and Budget was thrilled with it. | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
This is why she resigned. She resigned because of the | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
contradiction of her own statements. Rather than use saying why she | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
resigned, I am asking you, should she resign? I think it would have | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
been a better idea if she apologised... She has apologised. | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
She apologised six days later. It isn't just about the article, it is | :14:55. | :14:57. | |
not about stating facts, it is about the language, the rhetoric, the | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
ramifications of it. One of the ramifications is yes, Trevor | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
Kavanagh's peas which went on to thank Sarah champion for making it | :15:08. | :15:10. | |
acceptable to talk about the Muslim problem. | :15:11. | :15:13. | |
This was a separate piece written by a different writers still employed | :15:14. | :15:20. | |
by the Sun who quoted Sarah Champion, so you are talking about | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
the context of that. Which this piece fuelled and we have to | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
understand language is important and language can fuel. We can understand | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
that when Sarah Champion was saying that British Pakistanis are raping | :15:33. | :15:35. | |
white girls, she was not talking about Sajid Javid the Secretary of | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
State, Sadiq Khan, and she wasn't talking about the vast majority of | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
Pakistani males. Let me to make this one important point, has anyone | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
heard about an 81-year-old Yemeni man who was murdered two years ago | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
and approached by two far-right white extremists and called a | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
groomer and murdered on the Eve of his second anniversary? Can we stick | :16:01. | :16:06. | |
with this issue. Can you react to that point that her language fuels | :16:07. | :16:09. | |
other kinds of hatred and other kinds of prejudice? No, to accuse | :16:10. | :16:16. | |
Sarah Champion of fuelling racism, it is lazy and it is easy to do. And | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
if we are going to use, it was clumsy words and she apologised for | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
those words, but you have to understand that victims of sexual | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
abuse rarely get heard and believed, they were let down by the system and | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
the communities. Many faith communities pushed back, the | :16:35. | :16:37. | |
Catholic Church did when it had its own scandal about sexual | :16:38. | :16:40. | |
exploitation and understandably, some people in the Muslim community | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
are doing that. But this is largely men who are very angry about this. | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
And some of the stuff that I have seen on social media describing the | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
glee they have got with Sarah Champion resigning is astonishing | :16:53. | :16:55. | |
and if we are going to talk about language and responsibility, then | :16:56. | :16:58. | |
that the same argument that people like extremists and Isis use when | :16:59. | :17:05. | |
they justify what they do from Islamic language so it works both | :17:06. | :17:09. | |
ways if you use those arguments. One of the issues around many of these | :17:10. | :17:16. | |
cases to do with gang-related grooming has been, of many, that the | :17:17. | :17:19. | |
police and authorities involved have been scared to broach the issue | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
because they are worried about perceived racism. We now in a | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
situation where we have got an MP who we should say is the MP for | :17:28. | :17:30. | |
other rum, who has campaigned actively to help those who have been | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
in these situations and beyond, we in a situation where she has had to | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
stand down as Meite feel she has the stands down from this post because | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
she herself cannot talk about this, is that not the problem? That we | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
make it quite clear, I have supported Sarah Champion and voted | :17:49. | :17:50. | |
for Sarah Champion. Do you understand that issue? If I can | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
comment, I voted for her and supported her advocacy work when it | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
comes to this. But what we have to understand just to say political | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
correctness is an issue, this is not what the South Yorkshire Police are | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
saying today. I spoke to the head of South Yorkshire Police and they are | :18:09. | :18:11. | |
not saying political correctness got in the way and this is why, three | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
years on, there has not been a single failure from the police or | :18:16. | :18:18. | |
the social services that has been challenged. Where have the | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
resignations been, where have the people who have supposedly... Could | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
you not say this has contributed? Let me finish. We're nearly out of | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
time. It has contributed to a climate of people being scared to | :18:34. | :18:36. | |
say what is a real issue? The worst thing about it is that for six days | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
we talked about critical correctness and race and we have forgotten the | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
victims that are being brutally abused. And some people would say an | :18:46. | :18:51. | |
MP is now out of a job, a Shadow Secretary of State, where she had | :18:52. | :18:57. | |
more power to help. We are not collateral damage. We have not | :18:58. | :19:04. | |
spoken about Ahmed who was murdered for being called a groomer. We must | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
stand up for these girls and far right extremists. If that is the | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
case we must stand up for the girls, the first thing you must do is | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
believe it... Yes, we have demonstrated against them. You must | :19:18. | :19:20. | |
create a space within communities where you can talk about it. | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
Unfortunately, there is still a culture of the blue around sexual | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
exploitation, Asian girls get bailed systematically by the community | :19:32. | :19:33. | |
because they get ostracised. So let's talk about it. Do not say, I | :19:34. | :19:40. | |
supported Sarah Champion... I am sorry, we have to leave that there, | :19:41. | :19:42. | |
thank you very much. Is Donald Trump a racist, | :19:43. | :19:45. | |
or just another politician That's what's being asked | :19:46. | :19:47. | |
across America and around Only 24 hours after the US President | :19:48. | :19:50. | |
explicitly condemned white supremacists and neo-Nazis | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
over their violent protest in Charlottesville, Virginia - | :19:55. | :20:00. | |
having being condemned for not doing so earlier - Donald Trump has | :20:01. | :20:02. | |
back-pedalled, saying there was "blame on both sides" | :20:03. | :20:04. | |
and not all marchers Theresa May made her position clear | :20:05. | :20:07. | |
today, saying it was important to condemn far-right views "wherever | :20:08. | :20:16. | |
we hear them". So what was Donald Trump | :20:17. | :20:23. | |
trying to say and why did I asked Sam Nunberg, | :20:24. | :20:25. | |
former political adviser I think it was unnecessary for the | :20:26. | :20:39. | |
President yesterday during his press conference to leave it up to | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
reinterpretation about his initial two statements. If you go over the | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
choreography of the first two, his initial statement says there is | :20:48. | :20:50. | |
violence on both sides, I condemn it, I end Tiley condemn it and it is | :20:51. | :20:57. | |
not excusable -- I entirely. Sam, surely it is a very easy thing | :20:58. | :21:00. | |
for a President to stand there, just like people on the Republican | :21:01. | :21:03. | |
side have done, the Bushes... The Bushes have come out now | :21:04. | :21:06. | |
and said, we need to unilaterally just condemn and reject bigotry | :21:07. | :21:09. | |
and violence and just say that, in reference to the KKK members | :21:10. | :21:11. | |
and the white supremacists. The President did, | :21:12. | :21:14. | |
in his second statement. But he seems to have undone some | :21:15. | :21:27. | |
of that work with his comments, And what I'm trying to understand | :21:28. | :21:30. | |
from you, as someone who's worked for him, | :21:31. | :21:33. | |
is, does he actually hold prejudiced views, | :21:34. | :21:35. | |
or is he just trying OK, so first of all, he does not | :21:36. | :21:37. | |
hold any prejudices at all. We can go into it, I can tell | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
you about it from my own But I also just want to take | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
the premise of your question, His base is not neo-Nazis, | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
his base is not the KKK. His base are Republicans | :21:50. | :21:55. | |
and blue-collar white - predominantly - Democrats | :21:56. | :21:57. | |
and self-described Independents, and they came out and | :21:58. | :21:58. | |
they voted for him. If you say Trump holds no racist | :21:59. | :22:06. | |
or prejudiced views, is one of the reasons why he is kind | :22:07. | :22:08. | |
of fudging it a bit because he doesn't want to offend | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
that part of his base? What it is, and this | :22:13. | :22:14. | |
is where I find it offensive, We feel that the entire base, | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
that this movement and this organic movement that came out that we have | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
not seen since the '80s, that got him into office, | :22:26. | :22:28. | |
where he won states such as Michigan, Wisconsin, | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
Pennsylvania, that Republicans have not won in over 35 years, | :22:34. | :22:35. | |
we feel that it is completely delegitimised by parts of the media | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
when they have incidents like this that you then want to say - | :22:41. | :22:48. | |
well, they're just a bunch of KKK, they're just a bunch of white | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
nationalists and they're just Has Donald Trump done | :22:53. | :22:55. | |
himself a disservice, then, by muddying the waters | :22:56. | :22:59. | |
and getting defensive? He certainly left it | :23:00. | :23:00. | |
up to interpretation that his opponents, or others, | :23:01. | :23:03. | |
or any neutral observers frankly can run with, and he left it up | :23:04. | :23:06. | |
to an interpretation that his political enemies | :23:07. | :23:08. | |
can use against him. But by no means is he a racist, | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
or by no means is he an anti-Semite. I worked for him | :23:13. | :23:15. | |
from 2011 to mid-2015. I worked for him when people | :23:16. | :23:21. | |
in my industry would laugh at me when I said, this guy can be elected | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
President. I worked hundreds of hours | :23:26. | :23:27. | |
a week for him, nobody would take my phone calls, | :23:28. | :23:29. | |
we were laughed at, he was called a birther, | :23:30. | :23:31. | |
he was called a joke. People in the elite | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
said he had no chance. And subsequently, people leaked | :23:37. | :23:39. | |
out an eight-year-old Nevertheless, I took responsibility | :23:40. | :23:41. | |
for it and I was forgiven Yes, Sam, if I may, | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
just to remind people. You put up this post and you did use | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
the N word and that was For a racially charged | :23:53. | :23:55. | |
Facebook post. Even after I was forgiven | :23:56. | :24:14. | |
by Reverend Sharpton. So, if anything, it shows that | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
Trump is not a racist, he doesn't want to be | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
associated with them. And that was after being with me | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
for five and a half years and knowing that I don't | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
have a racist bone I mentioned the Bushes have come out | :24:33. | :24:34. | |
and said there should be no equivocation about the condemnation | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
of racism, bigotry. And we've also heard only | :24:39. | :24:40. | |
a few hours ago that Donald Trump has closed down | :24:41. | :24:43. | |
the Manufacturing Council as well, with regards to the people | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
around him and the people who are having to sit around him, | :24:47. | :24:48. | |
because some of them were also very aggrieved by his comments, | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
or lack of comments, Is he going to be | :24:53. | :24:53. | |
feeling isolated now? I'm sure he will do an interview, | :24:54. | :25:00. | |
or he will speak to the American people, and he'll start going back | :25:01. | :25:07. | |
on the agenda. At the end of the day, | :25:08. | :25:09. | |
Donald Trump will live or die If the economy is doing well, | :25:10. | :25:12. | |
the world seems secure, If it is not and he cannot | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
get an agenda through, he cannot pass tax reform, | :25:17. | :25:22. | |
he can't fix health care, he will have trouble | :25:23. | :25:25. | |
getting re-elected. Sam, thank you very much | :25:26. | :25:33. | |
for talking to us today. It's like a script straight out | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
of a Nordic thriller. Last week, a Danish rocket | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
engineer was arrested and is being kept in custody, | :25:40. | :25:41. | |
as police investigate the circumstances around | :25:42. | :25:43. | |
the disappearance of the journalist She was interviewing him aboard a | :25:44. | :25:45. | |
submarine. On Thursday night, off a small dock | :25:46. | :25:53. | |
to the south of Copenhagen, journalist Kim Wall departed | :25:54. | :26:15. | |
with celebrity engineer and rocket scientist Peter Madsen | :26:16. | :26:17. | |
in his self-designed submarine. 17 hours later, Madsen | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
was rescued by locals after his submarine had sunk, | :26:22. | :26:31. | |
without Kim Wall. What happened in those 17 hours | :26:32. | :26:38. | |
has been the subject Madsen's account of the night's | :26:39. | :26:41. | |
events given to the police has been This is the rather gloomy looking | :26:42. | :26:49. | |
dock that Peter Madsen claims to have dropped off Kim Wall | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
at about 10:30pm on Thursday. Now, it's 10:30pm tonight and, | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
as you can probably see, But helpfully for the police, | :26:59. | :27:01. | |
a local bar owner here claims to have the whole area covered | :27:02. | :27:09. | |
with CCTV, and we're Right, so, there's loads | :27:10. | :27:11. | |
of CCTV here, clearly. And it's all looking out over this | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
dock, where Peter Madsen claims So you have this information, | :27:17. | :27:27. | |
but you're not going to even try No, what I'm saying is that | :27:28. | :27:44. | |
I have bits and pieces I don't in any way think | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
I can comment on what On Thursday night, workers around | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
the south of the dock were helping You were here on Thursday | :27:55. | :28:02. | |
night until when? So, Peter Madsen claimed that he had | :28:03. | :28:08. | |
brought the submarine back... We saw the submarine over here like, | :28:09. | :28:21. | |
the days before, but not... Excuse me, madam, | :28:22. | :28:34. | |
we're from the BBC. We were wondering, I wanted | :28:35. | :28:36. | |
to quickly ask you, do Yeah, actually, I was here, | :28:37. | :28:44. | |
but I didn't see anything. Kim Wall grew up in the small | :28:45. | :28:53. | |
Swedish town of Trelleborg and is a talented journalist, | :28:54. | :29:04. | |
writing in the New York Times We knew her since she was | :29:05. | :29:07. | |
a small kid, Kim Wall, There are lots of people knowing | :29:08. | :29:14. | |
the family, and so...and also her. Peter Madsen's submarine | :29:15. | :29:25. | |
sank in Koge Bay, 30 miles from Copenhagen - | :29:26. | :29:49. | |
he says because of One of the first people to locate | :29:50. | :29:51. | |
Peter Madsen's submarine was and he told me that as he approached | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
the submarine, it began to sink. Police now think he may have | :29:57. | :30:08. | |
scuttled his own sub. Peter Madsen is well-known | :30:09. | :30:14. | |
here in Denmark. He calls himself | :30:15. | :30:17. | |
an invent-repreneur, with a goal of putting | :30:18. | :30:19. | |
people into space. His submarine is said to be one | :30:20. | :30:22. | |
of the biggest of its kind in the world, and it's something | :30:23. | :30:25. | |
he was deeply proud of. I mean, he's been out | :30:26. | :30:28. | |
there a lot with people. I've been sailing with him | :30:29. | :30:44. | |
on that submarine. Obviously, he had girls | :30:45. | :30:46. | |
out with him sailing and all that, but what happened | :30:47. | :30:49. | |
that particular day? I mean, obviously, it's strange | :30:50. | :30:52. | |
that he sank his U-boat. That's what the police said, | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
he sunk it on purpose, It's like, he... | :30:58. | :31:03. | |
He, er... It was such a huge effort | :31:04. | :31:14. | |
to build this boat. And it was such a big part | :31:15. | :31:16. | |
of him and his life, so... Some of Peter Madsen's story raises | :31:17. | :31:20. | |
more questions than answers and, as a result, the focus automatically | :31:21. | :31:28. | |
shifts to Kim Wall. What was she doing in | :31:29. | :31:33. | |
Peter Madsen's submarine? Was she investigating him, | :31:34. | :31:36. | |
or did something just go One of the possibilities | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
is that this is murder, and, obviously, then you need | :31:42. | :31:50. | |
to look for a motive. Are there journalists that sort of | :31:51. | :31:52. | |
do investigations on Peter Madsen? Has that been done before? | :31:53. | :31:55. | |
No, not in this kind of way. I've never seen an | :31:56. | :31:58. | |
investigation into that. And I must say that I think | :31:59. | :31:59. | |
that I'm the journalist that by far has written the most about him, | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
so I would know that. I see him as a very nice and loving | :32:04. | :32:06. | |
person, with very sound core values. He was obviously a man that had | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
fights with a lot of people. I mean, he has a whole water | :32:11. | :32:19. | |
of people behind him that he has been in fights with, | :32:20. | :32:25. | |
er, and I have been in arguments with him myself, but I've never | :32:26. | :32:28. | |
experienced an unstable man - in the sense that | :32:29. | :32:31. | |
I am afraid of him. Madsen denies the charges | :32:32. | :32:35. | |
against him and says he's innocent, As the days draw out, hope | :32:36. | :32:38. | |
of finding her alive diminishes. It starts with - | :32:39. | :32:45. | |
something has happened, but we hope that there | :32:46. | :32:52. | |
will be some end of it. So we know how this, yeah, sad thing | :32:53. | :33:02. | |
- or good thing - will end up. That was James Clayton, | :33:03. | :33:10. | |
with filmmaker Jamie Bowles. Now, you know the difference | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
between the two statistics the Government uses to measure | :33:15. | :33:17. | |
inflation - the RPI and the CPI. But just in case - | :33:18. | :33:20. | |
both the retail price index and the consumer price index look | :33:21. | :33:26. | |
at how much prices are increasing. But they are calculated | :33:27. | :33:29. | |
in different ways, and that means | :33:30. | :33:32. | |
the RPI is generally higher. Well, rail fares are going up 3.6% | :33:33. | :33:35. | |
in January, and the interest rate | :33:36. | :33:41. | |
on student loans has risen to 6.1%. These are both linked | :33:42. | :33:47. | |
to the higher RPI rate of inflation, and some believe it's | :33:48. | :33:54. | |
a way for the Government to rip off you, the | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
consumer - but is it? It was created in 1947, | :34:01. | :34:02. | |
when rationing was in But to many economists, | :34:03. | :34:07. | |
the retail prices index and to most consumers | :34:08. | :34:13. | |
it's just a few letters. Replace the R with C, and it becomes | :34:14. | :34:20. | |
the consumer prices index. Both track the rise in prices | :34:21. | :34:27. | |
of a basket of goods and services, but there's good reason | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
to take an interest Commuters should care - | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
the Government links rises in regulated rail fares to RPI, | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
which, in July, was 3.6%. Students should care too - interest | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
on their loans is linked to RPI. is that RPI is widely seen | :34:46. | :34:51. | |
as a flawed measure. The RPI lost its status | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
as a national statistic in 2013, and there were a number | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
of weaknesses identified that means that RPI tends to be higher | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
than other measures of inflation. So overall we do not see the RPI | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
as a good measure of inflation, and we strongly discourage people | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
from using it. This line shows the difference | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
between RPI and CPI. In the financial crisis, | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
as interest rates were slashed, But otherwise RPI has | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
consistently been higher, and that could leave the nation's | :35:29. | :35:36. | |
commuters and students There may only be one letter in it, | :35:37. | :35:39. | |
but actually there are three big The first is how | :35:40. | :35:47. | |
they measure housing costs. RPI, for example, includes | :35:48. | :35:52. | |
mortgage interest payments, RPI exclude some of the highest | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
earners and some of the poorest households, whereas CPI | :35:57. | :36:05. | |
effectively covers everyone. But the third one is | :36:06. | :36:11. | |
the big one - the formula. The two are just worked | :36:12. | :36:13. | |
out differently. To produce the price index, | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
the Government has to collect, I think, about 250,000 | :36:18. | :36:19. | |
prices every month. The method that they use for some | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
parts of the retail price index is known to create an upward bias, | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
things go up by more than they come down, and for that reason | :36:28. | :36:35. | |
the International Labour Office, which offers international | :36:36. | :36:37. | |
guidelines on how to compile price indices, has been saying for decades | :36:38. | :36:39. | |
that this measure shouldn't be used. Despite this, the Government says it | :36:40. | :36:45. | |
has no plans to change its policies. But why not, given that the | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
Government itself also gets stung? It pays interest on hundreds | :36:50. | :36:54. | |
of billions of pounds' worth Those interest payments | :36:55. | :36:57. | |
are also linked to RPI. Meanwhile, | :36:58. | :37:05. | |
the Office of National Statistics We are required by law | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
to publish the retail prices index, but we also know that there are | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
a number of long-term contracts, many signed a long time ago, | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
that use the retail prices index, so stopping it would simply | :37:19. | :37:24. | |
not be practical. Our approach has been instead | :37:25. | :37:27. | |
to develop other measures that that people can use | :37:28. | :37:30. | |
instead of the RPI. My sense is that if anything, | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
the problems with the retail prices index are going to get worse, | :37:36. | :37:38. | |
rather than better, as shopping habits change, | :37:39. | :37:41. | |
and I think it would be much better for the Government to address | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
and resolve the problem than for the Government, | :37:47. | :37:49. | |
the British Government, to carry on publishing a statistic | :37:50. | :37:52. | |
which is known to be flawed. Rail companies, bond investors, | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
the student loans market while the taxpayer | :37:58. | :38:00. | |
could stand to benefit. Perhaps it's time | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
to consign RPI to history. an economist | :38:06. | :38:11. | |
from the Royal Statistical Society, and Ben Southwood from | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
the Adam Smith Institute. If I could come due first, Ben, | :38:16. | :38:27. | |
consumers are going to be laid end in our pocket if they are being hit | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
by rail price increases, are they being ripped off by the Government? | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
In a sense, they are. As was adequately shown there, RPI is a bad | :38:39. | :38:41. | |
measure of true inflation, although true inflation is an abstract | :38:42. | :38:48. | |
concept and all we have measures. Because RPI comes in slightly high, | :38:49. | :38:51. | |
it has allowed the Government to achieve a couple of political goals, | :38:52. | :38:55. | |
shifting the burden of rail onto those who use it, and not the | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
general taxpayer, lightening the burden on the general taxpayer, | :39:00. | :39:04. | |
going up from 50% of a ticket paid by the person who uses the train to | :39:05. | :39:12. | |
65%. And students? Students pay about 55% of their loans, and the | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
Government pays about 45%. Now, if we charged them less, the Government | :39:18. | :39:22. | |
would pick up more of the cost of the education. There is a reasonable | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
case for that, but a student who benefits from a degree, there is a | :39:28. | :39:30. | |
reasonable case for them paying for that. Is it time for the Government | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
to retire RPI? It can't retire RPI for a number of reasons, because it | :39:36. | :39:40. | |
is used in many contracts, private and public. It is not always as bad | :39:41. | :39:48. | |
as it is painted. There are advantage is to it. For example, it | :39:49. | :39:53. | |
was designed to measure inflation as experienced by households, whereas | :39:54. | :39:56. | |
CPI was designed for macroeconomic purposes. So CPI is very good, for | :39:57. | :40:02. | |
example, as the target rate for the Bank of England, but not so good if | :40:03. | :40:05. | |
you want to actually measure the impact of inflation on households. | :40:06. | :40:09. | |
But at the end of the day, people don't care about how things are | :40:10. | :40:12. | |
indexed, they care about the bottom line in their bank balance, and if | :40:13. | :40:19. | |
they hear about the benefit of paying off debts, people paying | :40:20. | :40:22. | |
those bills are actually using those services, if you agree with that, | :40:23. | :40:27. | |
the idea that they are being ripped off does not make people happy. That | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
is absolutely right, and I think the Government is fairly shameless in | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
the way it uses RPI and CPI, because it tends to use CPI when it is | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
paying out money, for example on some benefits, public sector | :40:42. | :40:44. | |
pensions, and it off when users RPI when people are paying out money, as | :40:45. | :40:51. | |
with rail fares, student loans and a number of other things. How can you | :40:52. | :40:54. | |
feel OK with that? I think if I was at home, I would be shaking my best | :40:55. | :40:57. | |
at the television. I don't think it makes much of a difference. If you | :40:58. | :41:04. | |
had student loans set as RPI plus some number, if it always comes in | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
at 0.5% above CPI, to make the same bank balance for the Government, the | :41:10. | :41:13. | |
same balance between taxpayers and users of the service, added the 0.5% | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
onto the arbiter in number, it doesn't really matter which one you | :41:18. | :41:23. | |
use. The decision is a political one of who bears the burden. I think it | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
is dishonest. The other thing is that it is inefficient, because the | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
difference between RPI and CPI, as your graph showed, is not constant, | :41:34. | :41:36. | |
and at times RPI has been lower than CPI. But in future we cannot change | :41:37. | :41:45. | |
it? The others for national statistics as to keep on publishing | :41:46. | :41:51. | |
RPI. -- the office for national statistics. For legal reasons, it is | :41:52. | :41:54. | |
difficult to correct the overestimation, although it would be | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
possible technically, so we are in a bit of a bind, which is one reason | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
that the ONS is creating a new index, yet another. That is the | :42:03. | :42:09. | |
household costs index. We will talk about that another time. That is all | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
we have time for this evening. Good night. | :42:14. | :42:24. | |
We have got rain moving eastwards at the moment, there will still be some | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
to clear away in the morning from southern and eastern England, it | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
shouldn't last long, cloud will take longer to break up before there is | :42:34. | :42:39. | |
sunshine and showers further north. I think we will catch showers in | :42:40. | :42:42. | |
Northern Ireland, on and off, heavier ones towards the north, and | :42:43. | :42:44. | |
a few | :42:45. | :42:46. |