16/08/2017 Newsnight


16/08/2017

How porous is the border between Northern Ireland and the republic? A former Trump adviser discusses the racism row. The tale of a missing investigative journalist in Copenhagen.


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Transcript


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The unseen border on the island of Ireland

:00:00.:00:10.

is the latest political dividing line in the Brexit battle.

:00:11.:00:12.

Want to see how soft this border is right now?

:00:13.:00:16.

That van is in the Republic, now it's in the UK.

:00:17.:00:19.

The only hint it's gone from one country to another -

:00:20.:00:22.

the speed-limit signs go from metric to Imperial.

:00:23.:00:26.

And as the British Government publishes its post-Brexit

:00:27.:00:28.

vision for the border, we ask Ireland's Foreign Secretary,

:00:29.:00:30.

A president who seems to side with white supremicists?

:00:31.:00:38.

Is Donald Trump a racist or just another politician

:00:39.:00:40.

We ask his former adviser whether he thinks the president

:00:41.:00:48.

And a story straight out of a Nordic drama.

:00:49.:00:54.

Last week, a Danish rocket engineer was arrested and is being kept

:00:55.:00:56.

in custody as police investigate the circumstances around

:00:57.:00:59.

the disappearance of journalist Kim Wall.

:01:00.:01:02.

I mean, it's really bizarre, it's really bizarre.

:01:03.:01:13.

I mean, he's been out there a lot with people,

:01:14.:01:16.

I've been sailing with him in the submarine.

:01:17.:01:17.

Obviously, he had girls out with him sailing and all that,

:01:18.:01:20.

but what happened that particular day, I've absolutely no idea.

:01:21.:01:37.

Today, the Government published another position

:01:38.:01:39.

paper in the long-running Brexit negotiation saga.

:01:40.:01:43.

Buckle up - we with have at least two more years

:01:44.:01:46.

This briefing, following hot on the heels of proposals

:01:47.:01:52.

regarding the customs union, concerns the UK's position

:01:53.:01:55.

on the Irish border and focuses on the need to avoid a hard border.

:01:56.:01:59.

Northern Ireland is the only part of the UK that will share a land

:02:00.:02:03.

The Government stresses that there should be

:02:04.:02:07.

no new physical infrastructure - such as customs posts or CCTV -

:02:08.:02:12.

at the 300 mile-long border, which has about 200 crossing points.

:02:13.:02:17.

Critics have labelled the document as vague on detail

:02:18.:02:19.

and lambasted the plan as a border smugglers' charter.

:02:20.:02:23.

David Grossman has been crossing the border himself today,

:02:24.:02:27.

If you want to see the complexity of the Irish border in action,

:02:28.:02:40.

follow the tourists to the Guinness brewery in Dublin.

:02:41.:02:46.

Although the famous black liquid is brewed here in Dublin,

:02:47.:02:48.

Some of it is then transported two hours north to Belfast to be bottled

:02:49.:02:56.

and canned and then loaded back onto trucks to travel back

:02:57.:02:59.

It's the sort of interwoven supply chain that's replicated

:03:00.:03:05.

And for those companies, a hard border would be a disaster.

:03:06.:03:13.

The Government's position paper, published today,

:03:14.:03:16.

suggests that lorries like this will, in future,

:03:17.:03:19.

be tracked using new technology to create a frictionless border.

:03:20.:03:24.

As we look forward to Brexit, of course, we do want to ensure

:03:25.:03:28.

that we don't see a return to the borders of the past, we don't

:03:29.:03:32.

see a return to a hard border, and that we're able to ensure

:03:33.:03:35.

that the crucial flow of goods and people between Northern Ireland

:03:36.:03:38.

and the Republic of Ireland is able to continue in the future.

:03:39.:03:41.

At the 15 main road border points, 118,000 vehicles cross each day -

:03:42.:03:48.

80 or more smaller crossing points where data isn't collected.

:03:49.:03:58.

The official estimate is that, in total,

:03:59.:04:00.

there are 110 million crossings by people each year.

:04:01.:04:05.

Wants to see how soft this border is right now?

:04:06.:04:08.

That van is in the Republic, now it's in the UK.

:04:09.:04:10.

The only hint it's gone from one country to another -

:04:11.:04:14.

the speed-limit signs go from metric to Imperial.

:04:15.:04:19.

The UK Government says it should stay as soft as this -

:04:20.:04:23.

no border guards, no buildings, no barriers.

:04:24.:04:24.

At the West Belfast office of Sinn Fein, which campaigned

:04:25.:04:32.

against leaving the EU, they're sceptical that this

:04:33.:04:35.

frictionless, technology-enabled border can actually work.

:04:36.:04:40.

They haven't yet indicated how these technical solutions

:04:41.:04:43.

All the people that we're talking to from the business community,

:04:44.:04:49.

from government departments, all argue that any technical

:04:50.:04:52.

solution will still add at least to further bureaucracy and

:04:53.:04:56.

further barriers to trade, movement of people and citizenship rights

:04:57.:05:00.

and so on, so we see no evidence that there are technical solutions

:05:01.:05:03.

which will not create further barriers on the island of Ireland,

:05:04.:05:06.

which is something we will all be determined to avoid and prevent.

:05:07.:05:13.

In 2015, ?2.7 billion worth of goods

:05:14.:05:15.

was sold from Northern Ireland to the Republic.

:05:16.:05:21.

However, this is dwarfed by the 10.7 billion

:05:22.:05:23.

that was sold from Northern Ireland to Great Britain.

:05:24.:05:28.

This is why the UK Government position paper rejects the idea that

:05:29.:05:32.

some have come up with of moving the border from where it is now

:05:33.:05:35.

to the Irish Sea, to allow the island of Ireland

:05:36.:05:38.

The Government has said that the idea of moving the border

:05:39.:05:44.

is both constitutionally and economically wrong.

:05:45.:05:48.

That is music to the ears of the DUP, the party which is now,

:05:49.:05:51.

to support Theresa May's administration.

:05:52.:05:59.

We will not accept, and the Government has now said

:06:00.:06:02.

it will not accept, special status for Northern Ireland

:06:03.:06:07.

which removes Northern Ireland from the rest of the United Kingdom

:06:08.:06:10.

And don't forget, it's the Irish Government and the EU

:06:11.:06:14.

negotiators who have said they do not wish to upset the terms

:06:15.:06:17.

And the terms of the Good Friday agreement make it quite clear

:06:18.:06:23.

that the constitutional status of Northern Ireland cannot be

:06:24.:06:26.

changed unless there is a clear majority in Northern Ireland

:06:27.:06:28.

So the Guinness, and the thousands of other products,

:06:29.:06:36.

keep flowing across the border unchallenged for now.

:06:37.:06:39.

Today's position paper is designed to put pressure on both the EU

:06:40.:06:43.

and the Irish government to help keep it that way.

:06:44.:06:49.

But what does the Irish government think of the proposals?

:06:50.:06:52.

I spoke to Simon Coveney, Ireland's Foreign Secretary,

:06:53.:06:55.

I began by asking whether he welcomed the Government's proposals.

:06:56.:07:00.

Well, certainly, I think we welcome the publication

:07:01.:07:03.

of a detailed written document, and we've been calling now for

:07:04.:07:07.

quite some time for a detailed paper from the British Government

:07:08.:07:10.

on what their aspirations are in the context

:07:11.:07:15.

of Ireland and Northern Ireland, for the Brexit negotiations,

:07:16.:07:19.

There's a lot of good stuff in it from our perspective,

:07:20.:07:27.

very strong language in terms of protecting the Good Friday

:07:28.:07:31.

agreement in full, very strong, supportive language around what's

:07:32.:07:33.

called the common travel area, which for many, many years,

:07:34.:07:36.

long before we joined the European Union, has allowed

:07:37.:07:38.

British people in Ireland and Irish people in Britain to enjoy

:07:39.:07:41.

There has been suggestions, up until now, coming from

:07:42.:07:44.

some sources of the UK that, look, we can solve

:07:45.:07:47.

this problem by technology, by putting cameras on the border,

:07:48.:07:51.

having numberplate recognition systems.

:07:52.:07:53.

And I've always been very sceptical of that,

:07:54.:07:55.

and so that why it is very welcome today that the British Government

:07:56.:07:58.

is saying clearly that there will be no infrastructure

:07:59.:08:00.

Let's just say your counterparts in Brussels, the 26 other countries,

:08:01.:08:08.

do not go for this and we end up with no deal, as Theresa May

:08:09.:08:12.

has said might be the case, and let's say we are in a situation

:08:13.:08:15.

where the UK allows chlorinated chicken from America -

:08:16.:08:18.

will that be a circumstance within which

:08:19.:08:21.

the Irish government will erect some kind of border?

:08:22.:08:27.

Well, you know, if Britain decide to take an approach

:08:28.:08:31.

that clearly applies different food safety standards to Britain,

:08:32.:08:33.

including Northern Ireland, to the common market

:08:34.:08:36.

in the European Union, then we have a real problem.

:08:37.:08:39.

There are two partners in this negotiation.

:08:40.:08:41.

The other happens to represent 27 other countries,

:08:42.:08:45.

so what we have today from Britain, which is welcome,

:08:46.:08:48.

is an approach to the negotiations, much of which is very much supported

:08:49.:08:52.

by the Irish government, but we will have to thrash

:08:53.:08:55.

through the issues, find compromises, make sure

:08:56.:08:59.

that we protect the integrity of the European Union in

:09:00.:09:02.

these negotiations, as well as try to facilitate British ambition.

:09:03.:09:06.

The idea that Britain is going to be able to negotiate its own free-trade

:09:07.:09:10.

agreements with countries all over the world and at the same time

:09:11.:09:13.

expect barrier-free access into the single market,

:09:14.:09:16.

I don't think that that in itself is realistic.

:09:17.:09:20.

But if the final deal on the Irish border came back with,

:09:21.:09:24.

let's say the other 26 members of the European Union wanting

:09:25.:09:29.

a harder border solution, would you veto the deal?

:09:30.:09:35.

Well, I'm not going to talk about what ifs at this stage,

:09:36.:09:38.

we are part of the other negotiating side,

:09:39.:09:40.

we are part of the EU negotiating team.

:09:41.:09:42.

Michel Barnier has been very vocal and very protective

:09:43.:09:48.

of Irish interests to date, because he has made it very clear

:09:49.:09:51.

that Irish interests are European interests.

:09:52.:09:52.

This, in many ways, is a test of the European Union in terms

:09:53.:09:57.

of how it protects small member states, which is exactly what it

:09:58.:10:00.

needs to do here in the context of the consequences

:10:01.:10:03.

In your statement today, you said you would be realistic and fair,

:10:04.:10:08.

but "We will also be stubborn in relation to defending

:10:09.:10:11.

If you were in a situation where a hard border was favoured

:10:12.:10:17.

by your fellow members, I presume you would be stubborn

:10:18.:10:19.

then in vetoing it, that is what I am testing, your resolve.

:10:20.:10:24.

I don't think we will be in that place, because the EU has already

:10:25.:10:28.

shown a willingness to show real flexibility to try to accommodate

:10:29.:10:30.

what are very real vulnerabilities for Ireland in the context of Brexit

:10:31.:10:33.

- and Britain also in the context of Northern Ireland.

:10:34.:10:36.

And so we need to work this out and find the political solution

:10:37.:10:40.

is that, in my view, effectively allows Northern Ireland

:10:41.:10:43.

to become an extension of the EU customs union,

:10:44.:10:46.

to create equivalence north and south of the border that can

:10:47.:10:50.

allow the free movement not only of people but also of goods.

:10:51.:10:52.

We also need to find a solution for services.

:10:53.:10:55.

The British Government talks about the need for a common energy

:10:56.:10:59.

market north and south, because they are totally

:11:00.:11:04.

So all of these things are part of the complexity

:11:05.:11:09.

of Brexit, which of course is a consequence of leaving.

:11:10.:11:11.

And you know, Ireland is a country that had nothing to do

:11:12.:11:14.

with the decision for Britain to leave the European Union

:11:15.:11:17.

but is very much now in the middle of the debate to try and ensure

:11:18.:11:20.

that we protect ourselves in that context.

:11:21.:11:22.

And that is what I mean when I say that Ireland

:11:23.:11:25.

will be fair and realistic, but also stubborn.

:11:26.:11:27.

If we believe that these negotiations are moving

:11:28.:11:29.

in the wrong direction, if we believe the British

:11:30.:11:35.

Government is being unreasonable, we will say so.

:11:36.:11:38.

I mean, I believe that Ireland is actually Britain's closest

:11:39.:11:41.

friend here in the context of Brexit, and friends need

:11:42.:11:43.

I think some of the aspirations that I've heard are not realistic -

:11:44.:11:48.

in the context of the Brexit negotiations -

:11:49.:11:50.

and I need to be honest about that, but I think a lot of what we've seen

:11:51.:11:54.

today in the Irish and Northern Ireland paper coming

:11:55.:11:57.

from the British Government is really good.

:11:58.:12:04.

The Irish Foreign Minister, Simon Coveney, who I was speaking

:12:05.:12:06.

or a racial slur from a politician who should know better?

:12:07.:12:13.

Earlier today, Sarah Champion - the Shadow Women

:12:14.:12:17.

and Equalities Minister - resigned from Labour's front bench

:12:18.:12:21.

after a row erupted about an article she penned for the Sun newspaper.

:12:22.:12:24.

"British Pakistani men are raping and exploiting white girls,

:12:25.:12:28.

In the opinion piece, she wrote that "We must accept

:12:29.:12:36.

for gang-related child sexual exploitation, the convictions

:12:37.:12:39.

have largely been against British Pakistani men."

:12:40.:12:45.

She has now apologised for the offence caused

:12:46.:12:47.

by her "extremely poor choice of words".

:12:48.:12:49.

But does she have anything to say sorry for?

:12:50.:12:51.

I'm joined now in the studio by Muhbeen Hussain,

:12:52.:12:54.

the founder of British Muslim Youth, and from Salford by Amina Lone,

:12:55.:12:57.

from the Social Action and Research Foundation.

:12:58.:13:03.

Let me come to you first, Amina, was Sarah champion right to resign from

:13:04.:13:11.

her post as shadow women and Equalities Minister? No, I don't

:13:12.:13:15.

think she was, I think she has been punished for a subsequent Collen in

:13:16.:13:19.

the same paper that referenced her article. And she also said in her

:13:20.:13:24.

article that the vast majority of convictions are against white men

:13:25.:13:28.

acting alone. We don't see an outcry from white men. It is understandable

:13:29.:13:34.

that those crimes are mostly committed by white men in this

:13:35.:13:38.

country, but she was specific about a certain type of crime from the

:13:39.:13:41.

community, with cultural differences, and I think she is

:13:42.:13:44.

being punished and used as a scapegoat because she is an easy

:13:45.:13:49.

target as a politician. She was very specific about the type of crime she

:13:50.:13:54.

was talking about, she has been made a scapegoat? The one thing that we

:13:55.:13:57.

have to be very clear on, it isn't racist to say that Pakistani men are

:13:58.:14:03.

overrepresented there when it comes to on street grooming, as it is not

:14:04.:14:06.

racist to say that when you look at the majority of child exploitation,

:14:07.:14:12.

white men are, in terms of convictions and prosecutions...

:14:13.:14:16.

Should she have lost their position? I will come to that. She resigned

:14:17.:14:22.

because she had claimed that she found... She condemned the headline,

:14:23.:14:26.

she did not agree with it, and what came out from her office manager was

:14:27.:14:31.

that she was not only accepting of and Budget was thrilled with it.

:14:32.:14:35.

This is why she resigned. She resigned because of the

:14:36.:14:39.

contradiction of her own statements. Rather than use saying why she

:14:40.:14:44.

resigned, I am asking you, should she resign? I think it would have

:14:45.:14:49.

been a better idea if she apologised... She has apologised.

:14:50.:14:54.

She apologised six days later. It isn't just about the article, it is

:14:55.:14:57.

not about stating facts, it is about the language, the rhetoric, the

:14:58.:15:03.

ramifications of it. One of the ramifications is yes, Trevor

:15:04.:15:07.

Kavanagh's peas which went on to thank Sarah champion for making it

:15:08.:15:10.

acceptable to talk about the Muslim problem.

:15:11.:15:13.

This was a separate piece written by a different writers still employed

:15:14.:15:20.

by the Sun who quoted Sarah Champion, so you are talking about

:15:21.:15:24.

the context of that. Which this piece fuelled and we have to

:15:25.:15:28.

understand language is important and language can fuel. We can understand

:15:29.:15:32.

that when Sarah Champion was saying that British Pakistanis are raping

:15:33.:15:35.

white girls, she was not talking about Sajid Javid the Secretary of

:15:36.:15:39.

State, Sadiq Khan, and she wasn't talking about the vast majority of

:15:40.:15:44.

Pakistani males. Let me to make this one important point, has anyone

:15:45.:15:50.

heard about an 81-year-old Yemeni man who was murdered two years ago

:15:51.:15:55.

and approached by two far-right white extremists and called a

:15:56.:16:00.

groomer and murdered on the Eve of his second anniversary? Can we stick

:16:01.:16:06.

with this issue. Can you react to that point that her language fuels

:16:07.:16:09.

other kinds of hatred and other kinds of prejudice? No, to accuse

:16:10.:16:16.

Sarah Champion of fuelling racism, it is lazy and it is easy to do. And

:16:17.:16:21.

if we are going to use, it was clumsy words and she apologised for

:16:22.:16:24.

those words, but you have to understand that victims of sexual

:16:25.:16:29.

abuse rarely get heard and believed, they were let down by the system and

:16:30.:16:34.

the communities. Many faith communities pushed back, the

:16:35.:16:37.

Catholic Church did when it had its own scandal about sexual

:16:38.:16:40.

exploitation and understandably, some people in the Muslim community

:16:41.:16:44.

are doing that. But this is largely men who are very angry about this.

:16:45.:16:48.

And some of the stuff that I have seen on social media describing the

:16:49.:16:52.

glee they have got with Sarah Champion resigning is astonishing

:16:53.:16:55.

and if we are going to talk about language and responsibility, then

:16:56.:16:58.

that the same argument that people like extremists and Isis use when

:16:59.:17:05.

they justify what they do from Islamic language so it works both

:17:06.:17:09.

ways if you use those arguments. One of the issues around many of these

:17:10.:17:16.

cases to do with gang-related grooming has been, of many, that the

:17:17.:17:19.

police and authorities involved have been scared to broach the issue

:17:20.:17:23.

because they are worried about perceived racism. We now in a

:17:24.:17:27.

situation where we have got an MP who we should say is the MP for

:17:28.:17:30.

other rum, who has campaigned actively to help those who have been

:17:31.:17:35.

in these situations and beyond, we in a situation where she has had to

:17:36.:17:39.

stand down as Meite feel she has the stands down from this post because

:17:40.:17:43.

she herself cannot talk about this, is that not the problem? That we

:17:44.:17:48.

make it quite clear, I have supported Sarah Champion and voted

:17:49.:17:50.

for Sarah Champion. Do you understand that issue? If I can

:17:51.:17:56.

comment, I voted for her and supported her advocacy work when it

:17:57.:18:00.

comes to this. But what we have to understand just to say political

:18:01.:18:04.

correctness is an issue, this is not what the South Yorkshire Police are

:18:05.:18:08.

saying today. I spoke to the head of South Yorkshire Police and they are

:18:09.:18:11.

not saying political correctness got in the way and this is why, three

:18:12.:18:15.

years on, there has not been a single failure from the police or

:18:16.:18:18.

the social services that has been challenged. Where have the

:18:19.:18:23.

resignations been, where have the people who have supposedly... Could

:18:24.:18:27.

you not say this has contributed? Let me finish. We're nearly out of

:18:28.:18:33.

time. It has contributed to a climate of people being scared to

:18:34.:18:36.

say what is a real issue? The worst thing about it is that for six days

:18:37.:18:41.

we talked about critical correctness and race and we have forgotten the

:18:42.:18:45.

victims that are being brutally abused. And some people would say an

:18:46.:18:51.

MP is now out of a job, a Shadow Secretary of State, where she had

:18:52.:18:57.

more power to help. We are not collateral damage. We have not

:18:58.:19:04.

spoken about Ahmed who was murdered for being called a groomer. We must

:19:05.:19:08.

stand up for these girls and far right extremists. If that is the

:19:09.:19:13.

case we must stand up for the girls, the first thing you must do is

:19:14.:19:17.

believe it... Yes, we have demonstrated against them. You must

:19:18.:19:20.

create a space within communities where you can talk about it.

:19:21.:19:25.

Unfortunately, there is still a culture of the blue around sexual

:19:26.:19:31.

exploitation, Asian girls get bailed systematically by the community

:19:32.:19:33.

because they get ostracised. So let's talk about it. Do not say, I

:19:34.:19:40.

supported Sarah Champion... I am sorry, we have to leave that there,

:19:41.:19:42.

thank you very much. Is Donald Trump a racist,

:19:43.:19:45.

or just another politician That's what's being asked

:19:46.:19:47.

across America and around Only 24 hours after the US President

:19:48.:19:50.

explicitly condemned white supremacists and neo-Nazis

:19:51.:19:54.

over their violent protest in Charlottesville, Virginia -

:19:55.:20:00.

having being condemned for not doing so earlier - Donald Trump has

:20:01.:20:02.

back-pedalled, saying there was "blame on both sides"

:20:03.:20:04.

and not all marchers Theresa May made her position clear

:20:05.:20:07.

today, saying it was important to condemn far-right views "wherever

:20:08.:20:16.

we hear them". So what was Donald Trump

:20:17.:20:23.

trying to say and why did I asked Sam Nunberg,

:20:24.:20:25.

former political adviser I think it was unnecessary for the

:20:26.:20:39.

President yesterday during his press conference to leave it up to

:20:40.:20:43.

reinterpretation about his initial two statements. If you go over the

:20:44.:20:47.

choreography of the first two, his initial statement says there is

:20:48.:20:50.

violence on both sides, I condemn it, I end Tiley condemn it and it is

:20:51.:20:57.

not excusable -- I entirely. Sam, surely it is a very easy thing

:20:58.:21:00.

for a President to stand there, just like people on the Republican

:21:01.:21:03.

side have done, the Bushes... The Bushes have come out now

:21:04.:21:06.

and said, we need to unilaterally just condemn and reject bigotry

:21:07.:21:09.

and violence and just say that, in reference to the KKK members

:21:10.:21:11.

and the white supremacists. The President did,

:21:12.:21:14.

in his second statement. But he seems to have undone some

:21:15.:21:27.

of that work with his comments, And what I'm trying to understand

:21:28.:21:30.

from you, as someone who's worked for him,

:21:31.:21:33.

is, does he actually hold prejudiced views,

:21:34.:21:35.

or is he just trying OK, so first of all, he does not

:21:36.:21:37.

hold any prejudices at all. We can go into it, I can tell

:21:38.:21:41.

you about it from my own But I also just want to take

:21:42.:21:45.

the premise of your question, His base is not neo-Nazis,

:21:46.:21:49.

his base is not the KKK. His base are Republicans

:21:50.:21:55.

and blue-collar white - predominantly - Democrats

:21:56.:21:57.

and self-described Independents, and they came out and

:21:58.:21:58.

they voted for him. If you say Trump holds no racist

:21:59.:22:06.

or prejudiced views, is one of the reasons why he is kind

:22:07.:22:08.

of fudging it a bit because he doesn't want to offend

:22:09.:22:12.

that part of his base? What it is, and this

:22:13.:22:14.

is where I find it offensive, We feel that the entire base,

:22:15.:22:19.

that this movement and this organic movement that came out that we have

:22:20.:22:25.

not seen since the '80s, that got him into office,

:22:26.:22:28.

where he won states such as Michigan, Wisconsin,

:22:29.:22:33.

Pennsylvania, that Republicans have not won in over 35 years,

:22:34.:22:35.

we feel that it is completely delegitimised by parts of the media

:22:36.:22:40.

when they have incidents like this that you then want to say -

:22:41.:22:48.

well, they're just a bunch of KKK, they're just a bunch of white

:22:49.:22:52.

nationalists and they're just Has Donald Trump done

:22:53.:22:55.

himself a disservice, then, by muddying the waters

:22:56.:22:59.

and getting defensive? He certainly left it

:23:00.:23:00.

up to interpretation that his opponents, or others,

:23:01.:23:03.

or any neutral observers frankly can run with, and he left it up

:23:04.:23:06.

to an interpretation that his political enemies

:23:07.:23:08.

can use against him. But by no means is he a racist,

:23:09.:23:12.

or by no means is he an anti-Semite. I worked for him

:23:13.:23:15.

from 2011 to mid-2015. I worked for him when people

:23:16.:23:21.

in my industry would laugh at me when I said, this guy can be elected

:23:22.:23:25.

President. I worked hundreds of hours

:23:26.:23:27.

a week for him, nobody would take my phone calls,

:23:28.:23:29.

we were laughed at, he was called a birther,

:23:30.:23:31.

he was called a joke. People in the elite

:23:32.:23:36.

said he had no chance. And subsequently, people leaked

:23:37.:23:39.

out an eight-year-old Nevertheless, I took responsibility

:23:40.:23:41.

for it and I was forgiven Yes, Sam, if I may,

:23:42.:23:46.

just to remind people. You put up this post and you did use

:23:47.:23:52.

the N word and that was For a racially charged

:23:53.:23:55.

Facebook post. Even after I was forgiven

:23:56.:24:14.

by Reverend Sharpton. So, if anything, it shows that

:24:15.:24:19.

Trump is not a racist, he doesn't want to be

:24:20.:24:24.

associated with them. And that was after being with me

:24:25.:24:28.

for five and a half years and knowing that I don't

:24:29.:24:32.

have a racist bone I mentioned the Bushes have come out

:24:33.:24:34.

and said there should be no equivocation about the condemnation

:24:35.:24:38.

of racism, bigotry. And we've also heard only

:24:39.:24:40.

a few hours ago that Donald Trump has closed down

:24:41.:24:43.

the Manufacturing Council as well, with regards to the people

:24:44.:24:46.

around him and the people who are having to sit around him,

:24:47.:24:48.

because some of them were also very aggrieved by his comments,

:24:49.:24:52.

or lack of comments, Is he going to be

:24:53.:24:53.

feeling isolated now? I'm sure he will do an interview,

:24:54.:25:00.

or he will speak to the American people, and he'll start going back

:25:01.:25:07.

on the agenda. At the end of the day,

:25:08.:25:09.

Donald Trump will live or die If the economy is doing well,

:25:10.:25:12.

the world seems secure, If it is not and he cannot

:25:13.:25:16.

get an agenda through, he cannot pass tax reform,

:25:17.:25:22.

he can't fix health care, he will have trouble

:25:23.:25:25.

getting re-elected. Sam, thank you very much

:25:26.:25:33.

for talking to us today. It's like a script straight out

:25:34.:25:36.

of a Nordic thriller. Last week, a Danish rocket

:25:37.:25:39.

engineer was arrested and is being kept in custody,

:25:40.:25:41.

as police investigate the circumstances around

:25:42.:25:43.

the disappearance of the journalist She was interviewing him aboard a

:25:44.:25:45.

submarine. On Thursday night, off a small dock

:25:46.:25:53.

to the south of Copenhagen, journalist Kim Wall departed

:25:54.:26:15.

with celebrity engineer and rocket scientist Peter Madsen

:26:16.:26:17.

in his self-designed submarine. 17 hours later, Madsen

:26:18.:26:21.

was rescued by locals after his submarine had sunk,

:26:22.:26:31.

without Kim Wall. What happened in those 17 hours

:26:32.:26:38.

has been the subject Madsen's account of the night's

:26:39.:26:41.

events given to the police has been This is the rather gloomy looking

:26:42.:26:49.

dock that Peter Madsen claims to have dropped off Kim Wall

:26:50.:26:53.

at about 10:30pm on Thursday. Now, it's 10:30pm tonight and,

:26:54.:26:58.

as you can probably see, But helpfully for the police,

:26:59.:27:01.

a local bar owner here claims to have the whole area covered

:27:02.:27:09.

with CCTV, and we're Right, so, there's loads

:27:10.:27:11.

of CCTV here, clearly. And it's all looking out over this

:27:12.:27:16.

dock, where Peter Madsen claims So you have this information,

:27:17.:27:27.

but you're not going to even try No, what I'm saying is that

:27:28.:27:44.

I have bits and pieces I don't in any way think

:27:45.:27:49.

I can comment on what On Thursday night, workers around

:27:50.:27:54.

the south of the dock were helping You were here on Thursday

:27:55.:28:02.

night until when? So, Peter Madsen claimed that he had

:28:03.:28:08.

brought the submarine back... We saw the submarine over here like,

:28:09.:28:21.

the days before, but not... Excuse me, madam,

:28:22.:28:34.

we're from the BBC. We were wondering, I wanted

:28:35.:28:36.

to quickly ask you, do Yeah, actually, I was here,

:28:37.:28:44.

but I didn't see anything. Kim Wall grew up in the small

:28:45.:28:53.

Swedish town of Trelleborg and is a talented journalist,

:28:54.:29:04.

writing in the New York Times We knew her since she was

:29:05.:29:07.

a small kid, Kim Wall, There are lots of people knowing

:29:08.:29:14.

the family, and so...and also her. Peter Madsen's submarine

:29:15.:29:25.

sank in Koge Bay, 30 miles from Copenhagen -

:29:26.:29:49.

he says because of One of the first people to locate

:29:50.:29:51.

Peter Madsen's submarine was and he told me that as he approached

:29:52.:29:56.

the submarine, it began to sink. Police now think he may have

:29:57.:30:08.

scuttled his own sub. Peter Madsen is well-known

:30:09.:30:14.

here in Denmark. He calls himself

:30:15.:30:17.

an invent-repreneur, with a goal of putting

:30:18.:30:19.

people into space. His submarine is said to be one

:30:20.:30:22.

of the biggest of its kind in the world, and it's something

:30:23.:30:25.

he was deeply proud of. I mean, he's been out

:30:26.:30:28.

there a lot with people. I've been sailing with him

:30:29.:30:44.

on that submarine. Obviously, he had girls

:30:45.:30:46.

out with him sailing and all that, but what happened

:30:47.:30:49.

that particular day? I mean, obviously, it's strange

:30:50.:30:52.

that he sank his U-boat. That's what the police said,

:30:53.:30:57.

he sunk it on purpose, It's like, he...

:30:58.:31:03.

He, er... It was such a huge effort

:31:04.:31:14.

to build this boat. And it was such a big part

:31:15.:31:16.

of him and his life, so... Some of Peter Madsen's story raises

:31:17.:31:20.

more questions than answers and, as a result, the focus automatically

:31:21.:31:28.

shifts to Kim Wall. What was she doing in

:31:29.:31:33.

Peter Madsen's submarine? Was she investigating him,

:31:34.:31:36.

or did something just go One of the possibilities

:31:37.:31:41.

is that this is murder, and, obviously, then you need

:31:42.:31:50.

to look for a motive. Are there journalists that sort of

:31:51.:31:52.

do investigations on Peter Madsen? Has that been done before?

:31:53.:31:55.

No, not in this kind of way. I've never seen an

:31:56.:31:58.

investigation into that. And I must say that I think

:31:59.:31:59.

that I'm the journalist that by far has written the most about him,

:32:00.:32:03.

so I would know that. I see him as a very nice and loving

:32:04.:32:06.

person, with very sound core values. He was obviously a man that had

:32:07.:32:10.

fights with a lot of people. I mean, he has a whole water

:32:11.:32:19.

of people behind him that he has been in fights with,

:32:20.:32:25.

er, and I have been in arguments with him myself, but I've never

:32:26.:32:28.

experienced an unstable man - in the sense that

:32:29.:32:31.

I am afraid of him. Madsen denies the charges

:32:32.:32:35.

against him and says he's innocent, As the days draw out, hope

:32:36.:32:38.

of finding her alive diminishes. It starts with -

:32:39.:32:45.

something has happened, but we hope that there

:32:46.:32:52.

will be some end of it. So we know how this, yeah, sad thing

:32:53.:33:02.

- or good thing - will end up. That was James Clayton,

:33:03.:33:10.

with filmmaker Jamie Bowles. Now, you know the difference

:33:11.:33:14.

between the two statistics the Government uses to measure

:33:15.:33:17.

inflation - the RPI and the CPI. But just in case -

:33:18.:33:20.

both the retail price index and the consumer price index look

:33:21.:33:26.

at how much prices are increasing. But they are calculated

:33:27.:33:29.

in different ways, and that means

:33:30.:33:32.

the RPI is generally higher. Well, rail fares are going up 3.6%

:33:33.:33:35.

in January, and the interest rate

:33:36.:33:41.

on student loans has risen to 6.1%. These are both linked

:33:42.:33:47.

to the higher RPI rate of inflation, and some believe it's

:33:48.:33:54.

a way for the Government to rip off you, the

:33:55.:34:00.

consumer - but is it? It was created in 1947,

:34:01.:34:02.

when rationing was in But to many economists,

:34:03.:34:07.

the retail prices index and to most consumers

:34:08.:34:13.

it's just a few letters. Replace the R with C, and it becomes

:34:14.:34:20.

the consumer prices index. Both track the rise in prices

:34:21.:34:27.

of a basket of goods and services, but there's good reason

:34:28.:34:31.

to take an interest Commuters should care -

:34:32.:34:35.

the Government links rises in regulated rail fares to RPI,

:34:36.:34:40.

which, in July, was 3.6%. Students should care too - interest

:34:41.:34:45.

on their loans is linked to RPI. is that RPI is widely seen

:34:46.:34:51.

as a flawed measure. The RPI lost its status

:34:52.:34:57.

as a national statistic in 2013, and there were a number

:34:58.:35:01.

of weaknesses identified that means that RPI tends to be higher

:35:02.:35:06.

than other measures of inflation. So overall we do not see the RPI

:35:07.:35:11.

as a good measure of inflation, and we strongly discourage people

:35:12.:35:15.

from using it. This line shows the difference

:35:16.:35:20.

between RPI and CPI. In the financial crisis,

:35:21.:35:24.

as interest rates were slashed, But otherwise RPI has

:35:25.:35:28.

consistently been higher, and that could leave the nation's

:35:29.:35:36.

commuters and students There may only be one letter in it,

:35:37.:35:39.

but actually there are three big The first is how

:35:40.:35:47.

they measure housing costs. RPI, for example, includes

:35:48.:35:52.

mortgage interest payments, RPI exclude some of the highest

:35:53.:35:56.

earners and some of the poorest households, whereas CPI

:35:57.:36:05.

effectively covers everyone. But the third one is

:36:06.:36:11.

the big one - the formula. The two are just worked

:36:12.:36:13.

out differently. To produce the price index,

:36:14.:36:17.

the Government has to collect, I think, about 250,000

:36:18.:36:19.

prices every month. The method that they use for some

:36:20.:36:23.

parts of the retail price index is known to create an upward bias,

:36:24.:36:27.

things go up by more than they come down, and for that reason

:36:28.:36:35.

the International Labour Office, which offers international

:36:36.:36:37.

guidelines on how to compile price indices, has been saying for decades

:36:38.:36:39.

that this measure shouldn't be used. Despite this, the Government says it

:36:40.:36:45.

has no plans to change its policies. But why not, given that the

:36:46.:36:49.

Government itself also gets stung? It pays interest on hundreds

:36:50.:36:54.

of billions of pounds' worth Those interest payments

:36:55.:36:57.

are also linked to RPI. Meanwhile,

:36:58.:37:05.

the Office of National Statistics We are required by law

:37:06.:37:10.

to publish the retail prices index, but we also know that there are

:37:11.:37:14.

a number of long-term contracts, many signed a long time ago,

:37:15.:37:18.

that use the retail prices index, so stopping it would simply

:37:19.:37:24.

not be practical. Our approach has been instead

:37:25.:37:27.

to develop other measures that that people can use

:37:28.:37:30.

instead of the RPI. My sense is that if anything,

:37:31.:37:35.

the problems with the retail prices index are going to get worse,

:37:36.:37:38.

rather than better, as shopping habits change,

:37:39.:37:41.

and I think it would be much better for the Government to address

:37:42.:37:46.

and resolve the problem than for the Government,

:37:47.:37:49.

the British Government, to carry on publishing a statistic

:37:50.:37:52.

which is known to be flawed. Rail companies, bond investors,

:37:53.:37:57.

the student loans market while the taxpayer

:37:58.:38:00.

could stand to benefit. Perhaps it's time

:38:01.:38:05.

to consign RPI to history. an economist

:38:06.:38:11.

from the Royal Statistical Society, and Ben Southwood from

:38:12.:38:15.

the Adam Smith Institute. If I could come due first, Ben,

:38:16.:38:27.

consumers are going to be laid end in our pocket if they are being hit

:38:28.:38:32.

by rail price increases, are they being ripped off by the Government?

:38:33.:38:38.

In a sense, they are. As was adequately shown there, RPI is a bad

:38:39.:38:41.

measure of true inflation, although true inflation is an abstract

:38:42.:38:48.

concept and all we have measures. Because RPI comes in slightly high,

:38:49.:38:51.

it has allowed the Government to achieve a couple of political goals,

:38:52.:38:55.

shifting the burden of rail onto those who use it, and not the

:38:56.:38:59.

general taxpayer, lightening the burden on the general taxpayer,

:39:00.:39:04.

going up from 50% of a ticket paid by the person who uses the train to

:39:05.:39:12.

65%. And students? Students pay about 55% of their loans, and the

:39:13.:39:17.

Government pays about 45%. Now, if we charged them less, the Government

:39:18.:39:22.

would pick up more of the cost of the education. There is a reasonable

:39:23.:39:27.

case for that, but a student who benefits from a degree, there is a

:39:28.:39:30.

reasonable case for them paying for that. Is it time for the Government

:39:31.:39:35.

to retire RPI? It can't retire RPI for a number of reasons, because it

:39:36.:39:40.

is used in many contracts, private and public. It is not always as bad

:39:41.:39:48.

as it is painted. There are advantage is to it. For example, it

:39:49.:39:53.

was designed to measure inflation as experienced by households, whereas

:39:54.:39:56.

CPI was designed for macroeconomic purposes. So CPI is very good, for

:39:57.:40:02.

example, as the target rate for the Bank of England, but not so good if

:40:03.:40:05.

you want to actually measure the impact of inflation on households.

:40:06.:40:09.

But at the end of the day, people don't care about how things are

:40:10.:40:12.

indexed, they care about the bottom line in their bank balance, and if

:40:13.:40:19.

they hear about the benefit of paying off debts, people paying

:40:20.:40:22.

those bills are actually using those services, if you agree with that,

:40:23.:40:27.

the idea that they are being ripped off does not make people happy. That

:40:28.:40:32.

is absolutely right, and I think the Government is fairly shameless in

:40:33.:40:36.

the way it uses RPI and CPI, because it tends to use CPI when it is

:40:37.:40:41.

paying out money, for example on some benefits, public sector

:40:42.:40:44.

pensions, and it off when users RPI when people are paying out money, as

:40:45.:40:51.

with rail fares, student loans and a number of other things. How can you

:40:52.:40:54.

feel OK with that? I think if I was at home, I would be shaking my best

:40:55.:40:57.

at the television. I don't think it makes much of a difference. If you

:40:58.:41:04.

had student loans set as RPI plus some number, if it always comes in

:41:05.:41:09.

at 0.5% above CPI, to make the same bank balance for the Government, the

:41:10.:41:13.

same balance between taxpayers and users of the service, added the 0.5%

:41:14.:41:17.

onto the arbiter in number, it doesn't really matter which one you

:41:18.:41:23.

use. The decision is a political one of who bears the burden. I think it

:41:24.:41:28.

is dishonest. The other thing is that it is inefficient, because the

:41:29.:41:33.

difference between RPI and CPI, as your graph showed, is not constant,

:41:34.:41:36.

and at times RPI has been lower than CPI. But in future we cannot change

:41:37.:41:45.

it? The others for national statistics as to keep on publishing

:41:46.:41:51.

RPI. -- the office for national statistics. For legal reasons, it is

:41:52.:41:54.

difficult to correct the overestimation, although it would be

:41:55.:41:58.

possible technically, so we are in a bit of a bind, which is one reason

:41:59.:42:02.

that the ONS is creating a new index, yet another. That is the

:42:03.:42:09.

household costs index. We will talk about that another time. That is all

:42:10.:42:13.

we have time for this evening. Good night.

:42:14.:42:24.

We have got rain moving eastwards at the moment, there will still be some

:42:25.:42:29.

to clear away in the morning from southern and eastern England, it

:42:30.:42:33.

shouldn't last long, cloud will take longer to break up before there is

:42:34.:42:39.

sunshine and showers further north. I think we will catch showers in

:42:40.:42:42.

Northern Ireland, on and off, heavier ones towards the north, and

:42:43.:42:44.

a few

:42:45.:42:46.

How porous is the border between Northern Ireland and the republic? A former Trump adviser discusses the racism row. The mysterious tale of a missing investigative journalist in Copenhagen.


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