16/08/2017 Newsnight


How porous is the border between Northern Ireland and the republic? A former Trump adviser discusses the racism row. The tale of a missing investigative journalist in Copenhagen.

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The unseen border on the island of Ireland


is the latest political dividing line in the Brexit battle.


Want to see how soft this border is right now?


That van is in the Republic, now it's in the UK.


The only hint it's gone from one country to another -


the speed-limit signs go from metric to Imperial.


And as the British Government publishes its post-Brexit


vision for the border, we ask Ireland's Foreign Secretary,


A president who seems to side with white supremicists?


Is Donald Trump a racist or just another politician


We ask his former adviser whether he thinks the president


And a story straight out of a Nordic drama.


Last week, a Danish rocket engineer was arrested and is being kept


in custody as police investigate the circumstances around


the disappearance of journalist Kim Wall.


I mean, it's really bizarre, it's really bizarre.


I mean, he's been out there a lot with people,


I've been sailing with him in the submarine.


Obviously, he had girls out with him sailing and all that,


but what happened that particular day, I've absolutely no idea.


Today, the Government published another position


paper in the long-running Brexit negotiation saga.


Buckle up - we with have at least two more years


This briefing, following hot on the heels of proposals


regarding the customs union, concerns the UK's position


on the Irish border and focuses on the need to avoid a hard border.


Northern Ireland is the only part of the UK that will share a land


The Government stresses that there should be


no new physical infrastructure - such as customs posts or CCTV -


at the 300 mile-long border, which has about 200 crossing points.


Critics have labelled the document as vague on detail


and lambasted the plan as a border smugglers' charter.


David Grossman has been crossing the border himself today,


If you want to see the complexity of the Irish border in action,


follow the tourists to the Guinness brewery in Dublin.


Although the famous black liquid is brewed here in Dublin,


Some of it is then transported two hours north to Belfast to be bottled


and canned and then loaded back onto trucks to travel back


It's the sort of interwoven supply chain that's replicated


And for those companies, a hard border would be a disaster.


The Government's position paper, published today,


suggests that lorries like this will, in future,


be tracked using new technology to create a frictionless border.


As we look forward to Brexit, of course, we do want to ensure


that we don't see a return to the borders of the past, we don't


see a return to a hard border, and that we're able to ensure


that the crucial flow of goods and people between Northern Ireland


and the Republic of Ireland is able to continue in the future.


At the 15 main road border points, 118,000 vehicles cross each day -


80 or more smaller crossing points where data isn't collected.


The official estimate is that, in total,


there are 110 million crossings by people each year.


Wants to see how soft this border is right now?


That van is in the Republic, now it's in the UK.


The only hint it's gone from one country to another -


the speed-limit signs go from metric to Imperial.


The UK Government says it should stay as soft as this -


no border guards, no buildings, no barriers.


At the West Belfast office of Sinn Fein, which campaigned


against leaving the EU, they're sceptical that this


frictionless, technology-enabled border can actually work.


They haven't yet indicated how these technical solutions


All the people that we're talking to from the business community,


from government departments, all argue that any technical


solution will still add at least to further bureaucracy and


further barriers to trade, movement of people and citizenship rights


and so on, so we see no evidence that there are technical solutions


which will not create further barriers on the island of Ireland,


which is something we will all be determined to avoid and prevent.


In 2015, ?2.7 billion worth of goods


was sold from Northern Ireland to the Republic.


However, this is dwarfed by the 10.7 billion


that was sold from Northern Ireland to Great Britain.


This is why the UK Government position paper rejects the idea that


some have come up with of moving the border from where it is now


to the Irish Sea, to allow the island of Ireland


The Government has said that the idea of moving the border


is both constitutionally and economically wrong.


That is music to the ears of the DUP, the party which is now,


to support Theresa May's administration.


We will not accept, and the Government has now said


it will not accept, special status for Northern Ireland


which removes Northern Ireland from the rest of the United Kingdom


And don't forget, it's the Irish Government and the EU


negotiators who have said they do not wish to upset the terms


And the terms of the Good Friday agreement make it quite clear


that the constitutional status of Northern Ireland cannot be


changed unless there is a clear majority in Northern Ireland


So the Guinness, and the thousands of other products,


keep flowing across the border unchallenged for now.


Today's position paper is designed to put pressure on both the EU


and the Irish government to help keep it that way.


But what does the Irish government think of the proposals?


I spoke to Simon Coveney, Ireland's Foreign Secretary,


I began by asking whether he welcomed the Government's proposals.


Well, certainly, I think we welcome the publication


of a detailed written document, and we've been calling now for


quite some time for a detailed paper from the British Government


on what their aspirations are in the context


of Ireland and Northern Ireland, for the Brexit negotiations,


There's a lot of good stuff in it from our perspective,


very strong language in terms of protecting the Good Friday


agreement in full, very strong, supportive language around what's


called the common travel area, which for many, many years,


long before we joined the European Union, has allowed


British people in Ireland and Irish people in Britain to enjoy


There has been suggestions, up until now, coming from


some sources of the UK that, look, we can solve


this problem by technology, by putting cameras on the border,


having numberplate recognition systems.


And I've always been very sceptical of that,


and so that why it is very welcome today that the British Government


is saying clearly that there will be no infrastructure


Let's just say your counterparts in Brussels, the 26 other countries,


do not go for this and we end up with no deal, as Theresa May


has said might be the case, and let's say we are in a situation


where the UK allows chlorinated chicken from America -


will that be a circumstance within which


the Irish government will erect some kind of border?


Well, you know, if Britain decide to take an approach


that clearly applies different food safety standards to Britain,


including Northern Ireland, to the common market


in the European Union, then we have a real problem.


There are two partners in this negotiation.


The other happens to represent 27 other countries,


so what we have today from Britain, which is welcome,


is an approach to the negotiations, much of which is very much supported


by the Irish government, but we will have to thrash


through the issues, find compromises, make sure


that we protect the integrity of the European Union in


these negotiations, as well as try to facilitate British ambition.


The idea that Britain is going to be able to negotiate its own free-trade


agreements with countries all over the world and at the same time


expect barrier-free access into the single market,


I don't think that that in itself is realistic.


But if the final deal on the Irish border came back with,


let's say the other 26 members of the European Union wanting


a harder border solution, would you veto the deal?


Well, I'm not going to talk about what ifs at this stage,


we are part of the other negotiating side,


we are part of the EU negotiating team.


Michel Barnier has been very vocal and very protective


of Irish interests to date, because he has made it very clear


that Irish interests are European interests.


This, in many ways, is a test of the European Union in terms


of how it protects small member states, which is exactly what it


needs to do here in the context of the consequences


In your statement today, you said you would be realistic and fair,


but "We will also be stubborn in relation to defending


If you were in a situation where a hard border was favoured


by your fellow members, I presume you would be stubborn


then in vetoing it, that is what I am testing, your resolve.


I don't think we will be in that place, because the EU has already


shown a willingness to show real flexibility to try to accommodate


what are very real vulnerabilities for Ireland in the context of Brexit


- and Britain also in the context of Northern Ireland.


And so we need to work this out and find the political solution


is that, in my view, effectively allows Northern Ireland


to become an extension of the EU customs union,


to create equivalence north and south of the border that can


allow the free movement not only of people but also of goods.


We also need to find a solution for services.


The British Government talks about the need for a common energy


market north and south, because they are totally


So all of these things are part of the complexity


of Brexit, which of course is a consequence of leaving.


And you know, Ireland is a country that had nothing to do


with the decision for Britain to leave the European Union


but is very much now in the middle of the debate to try and ensure


that we protect ourselves in that context.


And that is what I mean when I say that Ireland


will be fair and realistic, but also stubborn.


If we believe that these negotiations are moving


in the wrong direction, if we believe the British


Government is being unreasonable, we will say so.


I mean, I believe that Ireland is actually Britain's closest


friend here in the context of Brexit, and friends need


I think some of the aspirations that I've heard are not realistic -


in the context of the Brexit negotiations -


and I need to be honest about that, but I think a lot of what we've seen


today in the Irish and Northern Ireland paper coming


from the British Government is really good.


The Irish Foreign Minister, Simon Coveney, who I was speaking


or a racial slur from a politician who should know better?


Earlier today, Sarah Champion - the Shadow Women


and Equalities Minister - resigned from Labour's front bench


after a row erupted about an article she penned for the Sun newspaper.


"British Pakistani men are raping and exploiting white girls,


In the opinion piece, she wrote that "We must accept


for gang-related child sexual exploitation, the convictions


have largely been against British Pakistani men."


She has now apologised for the offence caused


by her "extremely poor choice of words".


But does she have anything to say sorry for?


I'm joined now in the studio by Muhbeen Hussain,


the founder of British Muslim Youth, and from Salford by Amina Lone,


from the Social Action and Research Foundation.


Let me come to you first, Amina, was Sarah champion right to resign from


her post as shadow women and Equalities Minister? No, I don't


think she was, I think she has been punished for a subsequent Collen in


the same paper that referenced her article. And she also said in her


article that the vast majority of convictions are against white men


acting alone. We don't see an outcry from white men. It is understandable


that those crimes are mostly committed by white men in this


country, but she was specific about a certain type of crime from the


community, with cultural differences, and I think she is


being punished and used as a scapegoat because she is an easy


target as a politician. She was very specific about the type of crime she


was talking about, she has been made a scapegoat? The one thing that we


have to be very clear on, it isn't racist to say that Pakistani men are


overrepresented there when it comes to on street grooming, as it is not


racist to say that when you look at the majority of child exploitation,


white men are, in terms of convictions and prosecutions...


Should she have lost their position? I will come to that. She resigned


because she had claimed that she found... She condemned the headline,


she did not agree with it, and what came out from her office manager was


that she was not only accepting of and Budget was thrilled with it.


This is why she resigned. She resigned because of the


contradiction of her own statements. Rather than use saying why she


resigned, I am asking you, should she resign? I think it would have


been a better idea if she apologised... She has apologised.


She apologised six days later. It isn't just about the article, it is


not about stating facts, it is about the language, the rhetoric, the


ramifications of it. One of the ramifications is yes, Trevor


Kavanagh's peas which went on to thank Sarah champion for making it


acceptable to talk about the Muslim problem.


This was a separate piece written by a different writers still employed


by the Sun who quoted Sarah Champion, so you are talking about


the context of that. Which this piece fuelled and we have to


understand language is important and language can fuel. We can understand


that when Sarah Champion was saying that British Pakistanis are raping


white girls, she was not talking about Sajid Javid the Secretary of


State, Sadiq Khan, and she wasn't talking about the vast majority of


Pakistani males. Let me to make this one important point, has anyone


heard about an 81-year-old Yemeni man who was murdered two years ago


and approached by two far-right white extremists and called a


groomer and murdered on the Eve of his second anniversary? Can we stick


with this issue. Can you react to that point that her language fuels


other kinds of hatred and other kinds of prejudice? No, to accuse


Sarah Champion of fuelling racism, it is lazy and it is easy to do. And


if we are going to use, it was clumsy words and she apologised for


those words, but you have to understand that victims of sexual


abuse rarely get heard and believed, they were let down by the system and


the communities. Many faith communities pushed back, the


Catholic Church did when it had its own scandal about sexual


exploitation and understandably, some people in the Muslim community


are doing that. But this is largely men who are very angry about this.


And some of the stuff that I have seen on social media describing the


glee they have got with Sarah Champion resigning is astonishing


and if we are going to talk about language and responsibility, then


that the same argument that people like extremists and Isis use when


they justify what they do from Islamic language so it works both


ways if you use those arguments. One of the issues around many of these


cases to do with gang-related grooming has been, of many, that the


police and authorities involved have been scared to broach the issue


because they are worried about perceived racism. We now in a


situation where we have got an MP who we should say is the MP for


other rum, who has campaigned actively to help those who have been


in these situations and beyond, we in a situation where she has had to


stand down as Meite feel she has the stands down from this post because


she herself cannot talk about this, is that not the problem? That we


make it quite clear, I have supported Sarah Champion and voted


for Sarah Champion. Do you understand that issue? If I can


comment, I voted for her and supported her advocacy work when it


comes to this. But what we have to understand just to say political


correctness is an issue, this is not what the South Yorkshire Police are


saying today. I spoke to the head of South Yorkshire Police and they are


not saying political correctness got in the way and this is why, three


years on, there has not been a single failure from the police or


the social services that has been challenged. Where have the


resignations been, where have the people who have supposedly... Could


you not say this has contributed? Let me finish. We're nearly out of


time. It has contributed to a climate of people being scared to


say what is a real issue? The worst thing about it is that for six days


we talked about critical correctness and race and we have forgotten the


victims that are being brutally abused. And some people would say an


MP is now out of a job, a Shadow Secretary of State, where she had


more power to help. We are not collateral damage. We have not


spoken about Ahmed who was murdered for being called a groomer. We must


stand up for these girls and far right extremists. If that is the


case we must stand up for the girls, the first thing you must do is


believe it... Yes, we have demonstrated against them. You must


create a space within communities where you can talk about it.


Unfortunately, there is still a culture of the blue around sexual


exploitation, Asian girls get bailed systematically by the community


because they get ostracised. So let's talk about it. Do not say, I


supported Sarah Champion... I am sorry, we have to leave that there,


thank you very much. Is Donald Trump a racist,


or just another politician That's what's being asked


across America and around Only 24 hours after the US President


explicitly condemned white supremacists and neo-Nazis


over their violent protest in Charlottesville, Virginia -


having being condemned for not doing so earlier - Donald Trump has


back-pedalled, saying there was "blame on both sides"


and not all marchers Theresa May made her position clear


today, saying it was important to condemn far-right views "wherever


we hear them". So what was Donald Trump


trying to say and why did I asked Sam Nunberg,


former political adviser I think it was unnecessary for the


President yesterday during his press conference to leave it up to


reinterpretation about his initial two statements. If you go over the


choreography of the first two, his initial statement says there is


violence on both sides, I condemn it, I end Tiley condemn it and it is


not excusable -- I entirely. Sam, surely it is a very easy thing


for a President to stand there, just like people on the Republican


side have done, the Bushes... The Bushes have come out now


and said, we need to unilaterally just condemn and reject bigotry


and violence and just say that, in reference to the KKK members


and the white supremacists. The President did,


in his second statement. But he seems to have undone some


of that work with his comments, And what I'm trying to understand


from you, as someone who's worked for him,


is, does he actually hold prejudiced views,


or is he just trying OK, so first of all, he does not


hold any prejudices at all. We can go into it, I can tell


you about it from my own But I also just want to take


the premise of your question, His base is not neo-Nazis,


his base is not the KKK. His base are Republicans


and blue-collar white - predominantly - Democrats


and self-described Independents, and they came out and


they voted for him. If you say Trump holds no racist


or prejudiced views, is one of the reasons why he is kind


of fudging it a bit because he doesn't want to offend


that part of his base? What it is, and this


is where I find it offensive, We feel that the entire base,


that this movement and this organic movement that came out that we have


not seen since the '80s, that got him into office,


where he won states such as Michigan, Wisconsin,


Pennsylvania, that Republicans have not won in over 35 years,


we feel that it is completely delegitimised by parts of the media


when they have incidents like this that you then want to say -


well, they're just a bunch of KKK, they're just a bunch of white


nationalists and they're just Has Donald Trump done


himself a disservice, then, by muddying the waters


and getting defensive? He certainly left it


up to interpretation that his opponents, or others,


or any neutral observers frankly can run with, and he left it up


to an interpretation that his political enemies


can use against him. But by no means is he a racist,


or by no means is he an anti-Semite. I worked for him


from 2011 to mid-2015. I worked for him when people


in my industry would laugh at me when I said, this guy can be elected


President. I worked hundreds of hours


a week for him, nobody would take my phone calls,


we were laughed at, he was called a birther,


he was called a joke. People in the elite


said he had no chance. And subsequently, people leaked


out an eight-year-old Nevertheless, I took responsibility


for it and I was forgiven Yes, Sam, if I may,


just to remind people. You put up this post and you did use


the N word and that was For a racially charged


Facebook post. Even after I was forgiven


by Reverend Sharpton. So, if anything, it shows that


Trump is not a racist, he doesn't want to be


associated with them. And that was after being with me


for five and a half years and knowing that I don't


have a racist bone I mentioned the Bushes have come out


and said there should be no equivocation about the condemnation


of racism, bigotry. And we've also heard only


a few hours ago that Donald Trump has closed down


the Manufacturing Council as well, with regards to the people


around him and the people who are having to sit around him,


because some of them were also very aggrieved by his comments,


or lack of comments, Is he going to be


feeling isolated now? I'm sure he will do an interview,


or he will speak to the American people, and he'll start going back


on the agenda. At the end of the day,


Donald Trump will live or die If the economy is doing well,


the world seems secure, If it is not and he cannot


get an agenda through, he cannot pass tax reform,


he can't fix health care, he will have trouble


getting re-elected. Sam, thank you very much


for talking to us today. It's like a script straight out


of a Nordic thriller. Last week, a Danish rocket


engineer was arrested and is being kept in custody,


as police investigate the circumstances around


the disappearance of the journalist She was interviewing him aboard a


submarine. On Thursday night, off a small dock


to the south of Copenhagen, journalist Kim Wall departed


with celebrity engineer and rocket scientist Peter Madsen


in his self-designed submarine. 17 hours later, Madsen


was rescued by locals after his submarine had sunk,


without Kim Wall. What happened in those 17 hours


has been the subject Madsen's account of the night's


events given to the police has been This is the rather gloomy looking


dock that Peter Madsen claims to have dropped off Kim Wall


at about 10:30pm on Thursday. Now, it's 10:30pm tonight and,


as you can probably see, But helpfully for the police,


a local bar owner here claims to have the whole area covered


with CCTV, and we're Right, so, there's loads


of CCTV here, clearly. And it's all looking out over this


dock, where Peter Madsen claims So you have this information,


but you're not going to even try No, what I'm saying is that


I have bits and pieces I don't in any way think


I can comment on what On Thursday night, workers around


the south of the dock were helping You were here on Thursday


night until when? So, Peter Madsen claimed that he had


brought the submarine back... We saw the submarine over here like,


the days before, but not... Excuse me, madam,


we're from the BBC. We were wondering, I wanted


to quickly ask you, do Yeah, actually, I was here,


but I didn't see anything. Kim Wall grew up in the small


Swedish town of Trelleborg and is a talented journalist,


writing in the New York Times We knew her since she was


a small kid, Kim Wall, There are lots of people knowing


the family, and so...and also her. Peter Madsen's submarine


sank in Koge Bay, 30 miles from Copenhagen -


he says because of One of the first people to locate


Peter Madsen's submarine was and he told me that as he approached


the submarine, it began to sink. Police now think he may have


scuttled his own sub. Peter Madsen is well-known


here in Denmark. He calls himself


an invent-repreneur, with a goal of putting


people into space. His submarine is said to be one


of the biggest of its kind in the world, and it's something


he was deeply proud of. I mean, he's been out


there a lot with people. I've been sailing with him


on that submarine. Obviously, he had girls


out with him sailing and all that, but what happened


that particular day? I mean, obviously, it's strange


that he sank his U-boat. That's what the police said,


he sunk it on purpose, It's like, he...


He, er... It was such a huge effort


to build this boat. And it was such a big part


of him and his life, so... Some of Peter Madsen's story raises


more questions than answers and, as a result, the focus automatically


shifts to Kim Wall. What was she doing in


Peter Madsen's submarine? Was she investigating him,


or did something just go One of the possibilities


is that this is murder, and, obviously, then you need


to look for a motive. Are there journalists that sort of


do investigations on Peter Madsen? Has that been done before?


No, not in this kind of way. I've never seen an


investigation into that. And I must say that I think


that I'm the journalist that by far has written the most about him,


so I would know that. I see him as a very nice and loving


person, with very sound core values. He was obviously a man that had


fights with a lot of people. I mean, he has a whole water


of people behind him that he has been in fights with,


er, and I have been in arguments with him myself, but I've never


experienced an unstable man - in the sense that


I am afraid of him. Madsen denies the charges


against him and says he's innocent, As the days draw out, hope


of finding her alive diminishes. It starts with -


something has happened, but we hope that there


will be some end of it. So we know how this, yeah, sad thing


- or good thing - will end up. That was James Clayton,


with filmmaker Jamie Bowles. Now, you know the difference


between the two statistics the Government uses to measure


inflation - the RPI and the CPI. But just in case -


both the retail price index and the consumer price index look


at how much prices are increasing. But they are calculated


in different ways, and that means


the RPI is generally higher. Well, rail fares are going up 3.6%


in January, and the interest rate


on student loans has risen to 6.1%. These are both linked


to the higher RPI rate of inflation, and some believe it's


a way for the Government to rip off you, the


consumer - but is it? It was created in 1947,


when rationing was in But to many economists,


the retail prices index and to most consumers


it's just a few letters. Replace the R with C, and it becomes


the consumer prices index. Both track the rise in prices


of a basket of goods and services, but there's good reason


to take an interest Commuters should care -


the Government links rises in regulated rail fares to RPI,


which, in July, was 3.6%. Students should care too - interest


on their loans is linked to RPI. is that RPI is widely seen


as a flawed measure. The RPI lost its status


as a national statistic in 2013, and there were a number


of weaknesses identified that means that RPI tends to be higher


than other measures of inflation. So overall we do not see the RPI


as a good measure of inflation, and we strongly discourage people


from using it. This line shows the difference


between RPI and CPI. In the financial crisis,


as interest rates were slashed, But otherwise RPI has


consistently been higher, and that could leave the nation's


commuters and students There may only be one letter in it,


but actually there are three big The first is how


they measure housing costs. RPI, for example, includes


mortgage interest payments, RPI exclude some of the highest


earners and some of the poorest households, whereas CPI


effectively covers everyone. But the third one is


the big one - the formula. The two are just worked


out differently. To produce the price index,


the Government has to collect, I think, about 250,000


prices every month. The method that they use for some


parts of the retail price index is known to create an upward bias,


things go up by more than they come down, and for that reason


the International Labour Office, which offers international


guidelines on how to compile price indices, has been saying for decades


that this measure shouldn't be used. Despite this, the Government says it


has no plans to change its policies. But why not, given that the


Government itself also gets stung? It pays interest on hundreds


of billions of pounds' worth Those interest payments


are also linked to RPI. Meanwhile,


the Office of National Statistics We are required by law


to publish the retail prices index, but we also know that there are


a number of long-term contracts, many signed a long time ago,


that use the retail prices index, so stopping it would simply


not be practical. Our approach has been instead


to develop other measures that that people can use


instead of the RPI. My sense is that if anything,


the problems with the retail prices index are going to get worse,


rather than better, as shopping habits change,


and I think it would be much better for the Government to address


and resolve the problem than for the Government,


the British Government, to carry on publishing a statistic


which is known to be flawed. Rail companies, bond investors,


the student loans market while the taxpayer


could stand to benefit. Perhaps it's time


to consign RPI to history. an economist


from the Royal Statistical Society, and Ben Southwood from


the Adam Smith Institute. If I could come due first, Ben,


consumers are going to be laid end in our pocket if they are being hit


by rail price increases, are they being ripped off by the Government?


In a sense, they are. As was adequately shown there, RPI is a bad


measure of true inflation, although true inflation is an abstract


concept and all we have measures. Because RPI comes in slightly high,


it has allowed the Government to achieve a couple of political goals,


shifting the burden of rail onto those who use it, and not the


general taxpayer, lightening the burden on the general taxpayer,


going up from 50% of a ticket paid by the person who uses the train to


65%. And students? Students pay about 55% of their loans, and the


Government pays about 45%. Now, if we charged them less, the Government


would pick up more of the cost of the education. There is a reasonable


case for that, but a student who benefits from a degree, there is a


reasonable case for them paying for that. Is it time for the Government


to retire RPI? It can't retire RPI for a number of reasons, because it


is used in many contracts, private and public. It is not always as bad


as it is painted. There are advantage is to it. For example, it


was designed to measure inflation as experienced by households, whereas


CPI was designed for macroeconomic purposes. So CPI is very good, for


example, as the target rate for the Bank of England, but not so good if


you want to actually measure the impact of inflation on households.


But at the end of the day, people don't care about how things are


indexed, they care about the bottom line in their bank balance, and if


they hear about the benefit of paying off debts, people paying


those bills are actually using those services, if you agree with that,


the idea that they are being ripped off does not make people happy. That


is absolutely right, and I think the Government is fairly shameless in


the way it uses RPI and CPI, because it tends to use CPI when it is


paying out money, for example on some benefits, public sector


pensions, and it off when users RPI when people are paying out money, as


with rail fares, student loans and a number of other things. How can you


feel OK with that? I think if I was at home, I would be shaking my best


at the television. I don't think it makes much of a difference. If you


had student loans set as RPI plus some number, if it always comes in


at 0.5% above CPI, to make the same bank balance for the Government, the


same balance between taxpayers and users of the service, added the 0.5%


onto the arbiter in number, it doesn't really matter which one you


use. The decision is a political one of who bears the burden. I think it


is dishonest. The other thing is that it is inefficient, because the


difference between RPI and CPI, as your graph showed, is not constant,


and at times RPI has been lower than CPI. But in future we cannot change


it? The others for national statistics as to keep on publishing


RPI. -- the office for national statistics. For legal reasons, it is


difficult to correct the overestimation, although it would be


possible technically, so we are in a bit of a bind, which is one reason


that the ONS is creating a new index, yet another. That is the


household costs index. We will talk about that another time. That is all


we have time for this evening. Good night.


We have got rain moving eastwards at the moment, there will still be some


to clear away in the morning from southern and eastern England, it


shouldn't last long, cloud will take longer to break up before there is


sunshine and showers further north. I think we will catch showers in


Northern Ireland, on and off, heavier ones towards the north, and


a few


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