17/08/2017 Newsnight


17/08/2017

The latest on the Barcelona attack. On A-level day, is higher education broken? The German far-right. Has Indian Partition coverage been too negative about the British Empire?


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Transcript


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And yet again, the attacker used a vehicle as his weapon.

:00:00.:00:12.

At least 13 are dead and over a hundred injured

:00:13.:00:17.

in the attack on one of Barcelona's busiest tourist areas.

:00:18.:00:22.

Then I saw it careering down the road, going about 40-50 mph

:00:23.:00:25.

and, you know, if anything, picking up pace.

:00:26.:00:27.

And, you know, I heard people screaming,

:00:28.:00:29.

and I thought immediately, "This is a terrorist attack."

:00:30.:00:35.

We'll discuss what this attack can tell us about

:00:36.:00:38.

Are my allowed to change my results by don't like them?!

:00:39.:00:47.

Also tonight, as A-level students get their results,

:00:48.:00:49.

what kind of higher education system is waiting for them?

:00:50.:00:53.

I don't want to rain on kids' parades today,

:00:54.:00:55.

they're getting their A-level results and, you know, they've done

:00:56.:00:58.

really well, but the bottom line is I think the system is pretty broken.

:00:59.:01:03.

And in the week when we remembered Partition,

:01:04.:01:05.

is history too negative about the British Empire?

:01:06.:01:07.

This man thinks it's time for a reappraisal.

:01:08.:01:17.

Even pointing out that the scenes have become sadly familiar has

:01:18.:01:23.

This is the situation in Barcelona tonight,

:01:24.:01:28.

after it became the latest European city to be hit by the violence

:01:29.:01:31.

to which we have become so grimly accustomed.

:01:32.:01:36.

A van, driven at speed through crowds of tourists

:01:37.:01:39.

and locals on Las Ramblas, the city's most famous boulevard.

:01:40.:01:42.

Spanish police are treating the incident as terrorism and have

:01:43.:01:47.

It is unclear whether either was the driver of the van.

:01:48.:02:02.

Tonight, the so-called Islamic State claimed responsibility.

:02:03.:02:03.

If what happened does turn out to have been inspired

:02:04.:02:06.

by the terror network, it would be the first Islamist plot

:02:07.:02:09.

in Spain since the 2004 Madrid train bombing,

:02:10.:02:11.

We'll be live in Barcelona in a moment.

:02:12.:02:13.

It was just after 4pm when eight the van ploughed into a group of people

:02:14.:02:33.

on the central boulevard that runs through Barcelona. Tourists and

:02:34.:02:36.

local people took shelter in shops and judges as police began hunting

:02:37.:02:41.

for the driver. The authorities quickly said they were dealing with

:02:42.:02:45.

a terrorist attack and shuts down local Metro and train stations.

:02:46.:02:49.

There have been conflicting reports about the number of casualties.

:02:50.:02:52.

Government officials say 13 people have been killed and at least 100

:02:53.:02:57.

others have been injured. The Las Ramblas area is particularly popular

:02:58.:03:01.

with tourists because of its famous food market, bars and restaurants.

:03:02.:03:05.

It's still unclear how many people were involved in carrying out the

:03:06.:03:10.

attack, but government officials say two suspects have been arrested.

:03:11.:03:15.

Police have named one of the men as Driss Oukabir, who is alleged to

:03:16.:03:18.

have rented the van used in the attack. He's in his 20s and it is

:03:19.:03:25.

understood he was born Morocco. Vehicles have become the terrorist

:03:26.:03:28.

weapon of choice. In June, eight people died when three jihadist Rane

:03:29.:03:32.

van into pedestrians on London Bridge and then stabbed passers-by.

:03:33.:03:39.

12 people were killed in Germany in December 2016 when a Tunisian

:03:40.:03:42.

ploughed a track into a Christmas market. In the last few hours, so

:03:43.:03:47.

called Islamic State have claimed responsibility for the attack

:03:48.:03:52.

through their social media channels. Spanish authorities have been more

:03:53.:03:55.

than aware of the global threat posed by Isis. The 2004 Madrid train

:03:56.:04:01.

bombings remain the deadliest of attacks in Europe so far. 192 people

:04:02.:04:09.

died when an Al-Qaeda inspired cell planted explosive devices on a

:04:10.:04:12.

series of commuter trains. Since then, Spain has worked hard to

:04:13.:04:16.

identify the threaded faces from Islamist terror networks, concluding

:04:17.:04:21.

that another attack was inevitable. In June this year there was a core

:04:22.:04:25.

ward needed anti-terror operation between authorities in the UK, Spain

:04:26.:04:30.

and Germany. Six people were arrested for allegedly recruiting

:04:31.:04:33.

fighters and raising funds. According to documents seen by the

:04:34.:04:38.

El Pais newspaper, more than a thousand people are on the radar of

:04:39.:04:41.

Spanish police, more than 200 people are being investigated by the

:04:42.:04:47.

courts. Despite Spain's efforts to identify the unpredictable nature of

:04:48.:04:49.

international terrorism, tonight and other European city reels from the

:04:50.:04:52.

impact of a deadly attack. With me in the studio

:04:53.:04:55.

is Professor Peter Neumann. He's an expert on radicalisation

:04:56.:04:58.

and political violence at King's University and

:04:59.:04:59.

has advised the Catalan police on issues around security

:05:00.:05:02.

and terrorism. But first we are joined from

:05:03.:05:13.

Barcelona by Justin Calderon, an American who witnessed the aftermath

:05:14.:05:17.

of the attack today. What can you tell us about what you saw? Today

:05:18.:05:24.

was one of the saddest days in Spanish history recently. I was

:05:25.:05:30.

passed various videos from Catalan friends who witnessed the violence,

:05:31.:05:37.

people were mowed down on Las Ramblas, the most popular tourist

:05:38.:05:44.

avenue in Barcelona. Today is a grim day for Barcelona and for Spain, but

:05:45.:05:49.

many have come out in solidarity, people are donating blood, there are

:05:50.:05:55.

many volunteers lined up at two of the hospitals where the injured have

:05:56.:06:00.

been taken. What did you actually recall seeing, Justin? Myself, I

:06:01.:06:06.

live less than a calamitous away from Las Ramblas. -- less than a

:06:07.:06:15.

kilometre away. It is the most diverse area of Barcelona, there are

:06:16.:06:20.

many Muslims here. Indeed, myself, I went out and I spoke with people,

:06:21.:06:26.

and there was only a state of shock and terror as Las Ramblas quickly

:06:27.:06:33.

got the shutdown, and thereafter the rest of the centre of the city.

:06:34.:06:39.

There are reports that the driver of the van was weaving, trying to

:06:40.:06:43.

deliberately go for as many groups of people, can you give us any

:06:44.:06:50.

narrative on that? I cannot confirm that. What I can confirm is that

:06:51.:06:53.

there were many who were injured, not just in the centre, but on the

:06:54.:07:00.

sidewalks, so it does appear that he was swerving. Lastly, if you can,

:07:01.:07:04.

just briefly give us a pen picture of the area, described the area to

:07:05.:07:10.

viewers. Today it is shutdown, the centre of Barcelona, which is one of

:07:11.:07:15.

the most visited parts of Europe, is on complete shutdown. There is

:07:16.:07:19.

yellow tape across all of the main avenues in the centre part of the

:07:20.:07:27.

city. It is an shutdown. Justin Calderon, thanks for joining us from

:07:28.:07:30.

Barcelona. Professor Peter Neumann, you have worked with these people,

:07:31.:07:35.

why Barcelona, would you say? So Barcelona has been a hub of

:07:36.:07:42.

radicalisation and Saller thirst bridges for many years. There was a

:07:43.:07:47.

big plot in 2008, and that alerted the police to the possibility that

:07:48.:07:53.

this may happen in Catalonia, and they started to prepare themselves

:07:54.:07:57.

for this. They have been expecting this. Expecting it in what way? We

:07:58.:08:03.

go back to 2004, the last time there was an attack, so it has been well

:08:04.:08:08.

over a decade, hasn't it? And that was in Madrid, the Madrid bombings,

:08:09.:08:13.

but we have known for some time that Barcelona in particular has been a

:08:14.:08:20.

centre for jihadist preachers, they have attracted followers, it has

:08:21.:08:25.

also been a connecting tissue between France and North Africa, so

:08:26.:08:28.

a lot of people have been travelling through. There were dozens of

:08:29.:08:33.

arrests over the past at two years, so police was very aware of the

:08:34.:08:39.

possibility that people may be doing something in Barcelona itself, not

:08:40.:08:43.

least because Las Ramblas, during the summer, are such an attractive

:08:44.:08:47.

target. I am sure you have seen how, in other European cities - Brussels

:08:48.:08:53.

and parts of Paris - there has been a virtual lockdown. What has been

:08:54.:08:57.

the situation in the major Spanish cities, would you say? There has not

:08:58.:09:01.

been a major lockdown. In Barcelona at this point we do not know how

:09:02.:09:05.

many people were connected to this. We know about one, possibly two

:09:06.:09:11.

suspects that have been arrested. It is not clear whether this was

:09:12.:09:15.

carried out by a network or buy a very small group of purely inspired

:09:16.:09:18.

people who were acting essentially on their own. And are we seeing an

:09:19.:09:23.

ugly new tactic here? There are shades of the attack we witnessed in

:09:24.:09:29.

London, a suggestion that this was a vehicle veering from side to side,

:09:30.:09:33.

is this one of their new campaigns? Is clearly fits the pattern, and it

:09:34.:09:41.

started in Nice last year with the lorry attack, and Isis has been

:09:42.:09:44.

trying to promote this kind of attack for some time but was never

:09:45.:09:49.

quite successful. The December of 2014, we saw a number of attempted

:09:50.:09:54.

attacks on Christmas market in France which killed one or two

:09:55.:09:59.

people. The Nice happened, killing 86 people, and it caused a lot of

:10:00.:10:04.

enthusiasm amongst jihadist supporters, and it created a dynamic

:10:05.:10:08.

where people work copycat thing that kind of attack, it became very

:10:09.:10:12.

popular. It is because Isis have been pushed back in Raqqa? Now they

:10:13.:10:17.

have moved to the random sort of attack in European cities? I think

:10:18.:10:22.

it is part of the explanation. Since last year, we have seen Isis saying,

:10:23.:10:26.

don't come to the caliphate anymore. They used to say it was a duty to

:10:27.:10:31.

travel to the caliphate, but now they are saying, stay where you are,

:10:32.:10:35.

hit them where it hurts the most, which is at home. The logic behind

:10:36.:10:41.

it is an asymmetric attack. They are saying, you are attacking us where

:10:42.:10:44.

we are, we will attack you where you are. Peter Neumann, thank you for

:10:45.:10:48.

joining us this evening. It's one of the perennial

:10:49.:10:51.

stories of summer. Each August, A-level results day

:10:52.:10:53.

sparks scenes of joy and disappointment for teenagers

:10:54.:10:55.

across the country, before the scramble

:10:56.:10:57.

for university places begins. But today, things perhaps

:10:58.:10:58.

felt a little different. For one, the debate over tuition

:10:59.:11:00.

fees - at ?9,000 a year - was brought alive before

:11:01.:11:04.

the election, when the Labour Party made ditching them one

:11:05.:11:06.

of its flagship pledges. And today, we heard

:11:07.:11:11.

of an unprecedented buyers' market in clearing, with confirmed places

:11:12.:11:16.

down 2% on last year and many universities

:11:17.:11:19.

seeking students to fill their lecture

:11:20.:11:20.

halls from September. Beyond this, some have asked bigger

:11:21.:11:23.

questions about whether mass access to higher education

:11:24.:11:27.

is really the best thing Helen Thomas has been

:11:28.:11:29.

examining the picture. Results day was once irrelevant -

:11:30.:11:39.

to most of the country, at least. In the 1950s, less than 5% of

:11:40.:11:46.

young people went to university. These days, close to half

:11:47.:11:49.

of 18-year-olds And that's despite growing

:11:50.:11:51.

unease about the system. Fees of ?9,000 a year,

:11:52.:12:03.

interest rates of over 6% back at the centre of

:12:04.:12:07.

the political agenda. True, the total number of students

:12:08.:12:16.

accepted the university today fell slightly last year,

:12:17.:12:18.

but the percentage of English and Scottish 18-year-olds

:12:19.:12:21.

getting a university The simple critique

:12:22.:12:24.

is that high fees discourage people from

:12:25.:12:29.

going to university, and that just doesn't

:12:30.:12:33.

appear to be true. Loans that are only paid back

:12:34.:12:37.

when future earnings hit a certain level have

:12:38.:12:39.

worked in that regard. The bigger question

:12:40.:12:41.

is whether shovelling more and more students into the university system

:12:42.:12:44.

is the right thing to do. Are the students still

:12:45.:12:49.

getting value for money? And are more and more

:12:50.:12:52.

university graduates what the country and the economy

:12:53.:12:57.

really needs? Well, I don't want to rain

:12:58.:12:59.

on kids' parades today. They are getting their

:13:00.:13:02.

A-level results today and they've done really well,

:13:03.:13:04.

but the bottom line is, We've got one in two 18-year-olds

:13:05.:13:06.

now going to university. They are coming out,

:13:07.:13:10.

average debt is about ?57,000. Their chances of

:13:11.:13:12.

getting a job that is going to pay them enough to repay

:13:13.:13:15.

that debt, very small. Very few are going to get graduate

:13:16.:13:19.

level jobs, as we know them. And on top of that, you've

:13:20.:13:22.

got a black hole in the public finances because the

:13:23.:13:25.

Government is lending money It's a system that

:13:26.:13:27.

doesn't work for anyone. The Institute for Fiscal Studies

:13:28.:13:31.

found that graduates do earn more than non-graduates,

:13:32.:13:35.

the so-called graduate premium. And non-graduates were twice

:13:36.:13:40.

as likely to have But they found big

:13:41.:13:42.

differences to those returns between different institutions

:13:43.:13:47.

and between different subjects. The graduate earnings premium

:13:48.:13:52.

continues to be robust and obviously it's an average,

:13:53.:13:56.

and you are right to say, to draw attention to the fact

:13:57.:14:01.

that there are some courses which are not delivering

:14:02.:14:04.

those kind of returns. And that is why as a

:14:05.:14:06.

government, we are working very hard to make sure

:14:07.:14:08.

students have the capacity for informed choices,

:14:09.:14:11.

so they know where the returns are good, they know where

:14:12.:14:13.

graduate outcomes are good. If students need to be

:14:14.:14:15.

more discerning, could the same be said of

:14:16.:14:17.

universities as well? Fees now account for about half

:14:18.:14:21.

of university funding, up from maybe a third before

:14:22.:14:25.

the last hike in fees. That has led to a scramble

:14:26.:14:28.

for some institutions At the moment, universities

:14:29.:14:30.

are really engaged in what has been called

:14:31.:14:33.

a race to the bottom. They are taking students with less

:14:34.:14:36.

than two E grades at A-level, putting them onto

:14:37.:14:39.

university degree courses. And that's just

:14:40.:14:42.

a disaster, because these students

:14:43.:14:45.

are not going to succeed. Dropout rates at universities

:14:46.:14:47.

are rising and every time a student drops out, that's

:14:48.:14:50.

a personal tragedy. Some think the UK system has just

:14:51.:14:55.

lost sight of the fact that university is not or should

:14:56.:14:58.

not be for everyone. And that other options

:14:59.:15:00.

like vocational courses or apprenticeships have

:15:01.:15:02.

been squeezed out. I don't think as a country, we need

:15:03.:15:09.

more university students, no. I have felt for a long

:15:10.:15:12.

time that we have made a terrible mistake in

:15:13.:15:14.

this Whereas pretty much everyone else

:15:15.:15:15.

in the world has more than one type of higher

:15:16.:15:25.

education institution, we have decided to put all our eggs

:15:26.:15:27.

into a university So basically, if at 18 you want

:15:28.:15:29.

to do some further study, you can go to a university

:15:30.:15:37.

or you can go to university. You can do a three-year

:15:38.:15:39.

degree or you can do a It's something the Government

:15:40.:15:42.

is trying to change, upping both the provision and the prestige

:15:43.:15:46.

of technical and vocational courses. More options could be

:15:47.:15:49.

better for the next generation of students

:15:50.:15:51.

and the David Willets was Universities

:15:52.:15:52.

Minister when the Coalition He's now a Conservative peer

:15:53.:15:55.

and joins us from Southampton. Amatey Doku is Vice Chair

:15:56.:16:02.

of the National Union of Students. And Sir David Bell

:16:03.:16:07.

is the Vice Chancellor He was previously the senior

:16:08.:16:09.

civil servant in the Nick Timothy, the Prime Minister's

:16:10.:16:21.

former Chief of Staff, wrote in the Daily Telegraph today that

:16:22.:16:24.

effectively, this has become a Ponzi scheme. This is not offering value,

:16:25.:16:30.

calling for radical reform and is unsustainable and ultimately

:16:31.:16:35.

Pointless, how accurate is he? I do not agree with Nick and that's

:16:36.:16:38.

because the Government of course does provide money to the students

:16:39.:16:41.

when they go to university and expects them to pay back if they are

:16:42.:16:46.

in well-paid jobs and the economic evidence is still pretty clear that

:16:47.:16:49.

on average, being a graduate is going to earn you more than being a

:16:50.:16:54.

non-graduate. Setting aside economic gains, the broadening of your

:16:55.:16:58.

horizons as the kind of experience you have during those three years

:16:59.:17:01.

that she up for life. I am a believer in more people going to

:17:02.:17:06.

university, it has worked well for Britain and individuals. Of course

:17:07.:17:08.

there have to be a range of other options as well, but Bush and people

:17:09.:17:15.

getting good A-level grades today and going forward university have a

:17:16.:17:18.

good chance of three years to transform their lives for the

:17:19.:17:21.

better. Yes, good luck to them, you say it is good for those people but

:17:22.:17:26.

a recent report shows a third of graduates are in jobs where they did

:17:27.:17:30.

not need the degree in the first place, how'd you justify that?

:17:31.:17:34.

During their 20s, especially since the crash, there has been a slower

:17:35.:17:39.

process of younger people getting promotion and moving on and up in

:17:40.:17:44.

the jobs ladder. However, in eight of the jobs market, it makes going

:17:45.:17:47.

to university and being a graduate even more important -- in a jobs

:17:48.:17:52.

market. Non-graduate jobs, when you look closely, maybe the jobs

:17:53.:17:56.

themselves have become more technically demanding, maybe the

:17:57.:17:59.

regulations have become more own arrest and the level of equipment

:18:00.:18:03.

you have to deal with is more sophisticated. There does seem to be

:18:04.:18:07.

a process around Western countries where jobs do become graduate jobs

:18:08.:18:11.

and that is not necessarily a bad thing and that may tell you

:18:12.:18:15.

something about how economy -- the Comey has advanced. The fees and now

:18:16.:18:22.

?9,000, is the education nine times better and what is the interest

:18:23.:18:26.

charged on the money? I will be frank about this, there were lots of

:18:27.:18:31.

reasons for putting in the fees at 9,000 and I was involved in that. It

:18:32.:18:37.

was partly that we could see that universities had been underfunded

:18:38.:18:40.

and students had been in crowded seminars, in dilapidated building

:18:41.:18:45.

does buildings, with a lack of access to equipment for technical

:18:46.:18:50.

courses and we needed to boost the resource of going to university and

:18:51.:18:54.

no government could do that by putting in more public spending. How

:18:55.:18:57.

comfortable are you with 6%, that is a lot of money? It is not money for

:18:58.:19:02.

the students, they do not pay upfront. But ultimately, come on!

:19:03.:19:08.

What matters is graduates pay back at 9% of their earnings of ?21,000 a

:19:09.:19:14.

year, that is the crucial figure. For many graduates, above a high

:19:15.:19:19.

threshold, their income tax rate which is all taken out, not like a

:19:20.:19:25.

mortgage or a credit card debt, is 29%, not 20%. That is a big change

:19:26.:19:29.

in the British labour market but nothing like young people having

:19:30.:19:33.

overdrafts or credit card debt, it is not that kind of debt. Some of

:19:34.:19:39.

these vice chancellors, they like Premier League football players,

:19:40.:19:44.

451,000 for a vice Chancellor at the University of Bath, hundreds of

:19:45.:19:46.

thousands of pounds, is it sustainable and justifiable? I can

:19:47.:19:51.

see that those examples are egregious and I can see the anger

:19:52.:19:57.

that has broken out. But keeping it in proportion, and you are who

:19:58.:20:01.

started this, there is about 100 vice chancellors and Adonis thinks

:20:02.:20:09.

they are each earning too much, that is ?10 million. Fees bring in ?11

:20:10.:20:15.

million a year to educate our students and to deprive them of that

:20:16.:20:20.

because she think ?10 million badly spent, would be letting the tail

:20:21.:20:23.

work the dog, it is not proportionate. How much is too much?

:20:24.:20:29.

Should they be paid more than the Prime Minister? Universities are not

:20:30.:20:33.

part of the public sector, they are charitable institutions and they

:20:34.:20:35.

have to have rigorous assessment of the pay, but the level of vice

:20:36.:20:40.

Chancellor pay is not a reason for changing a system delivering over a

:20:41.:20:45.

million students and bring in billions into our higher system.

:20:46.:20:50.

What figure is egregious? One of the good features of our universities is

:20:51.:20:54.

they are an autonomous body so I will not tell universities. Is

:20:55.:21:02.

?250,000 egregious? A simple yes or no. We do not run them from

:21:03.:21:08.

Whitehall. There are countries where politicians decide pay rates at

:21:09.:21:11.

universities and bank happens England is not one of them. You

:21:12.:21:15.

brought him the word egregious, there must be a figure. Do I go to

:21:16.:21:20.

?300,000 question what people will have a personal view but it is

:21:21.:21:23.

important for universities that the pay rates are determined

:21:24.:21:28.

professionally with remuneration arrangements and it is not for me to

:21:29.:21:36.

tell universities about pay rates. I think universities are autonomous

:21:37.:21:38.

and that should be respected. Thank you for your time. The National

:21:39.:21:44.

Union of Teachers. You believe all fees should be scrapped, am I right?

:21:45.:21:49.

That is a noble initiative. How do we pay for it? First of all, I want

:21:50.:21:55.

to congratulate the students who got A-level results today, they did

:21:56.:21:59.

really good and important they are coming to our universities.

:22:00.:22:02.

Unfortunately, they will be saddled with a lot of debt. As David

:22:03.:22:06.

Willetts made very clear, there was a problem with the underfunding of

:22:07.:22:10.

universities and somebody has to pay for it and it is completely

:22:11.:22:14.

unacceptable to say this has to be forced on the individual student.

:22:15.:22:18.

Generations of young people are thought to be worse off than their

:22:19.:22:21.

parents and it should be paid through progressive taxation. The

:22:22.:22:25.

idea there was no money left was blown open at this election and we

:22:26.:22:28.

saw Theresa May say there was no money left and they found quite a

:22:29.:22:33.

lot of money for the DUP. The conversation has now shifted. A lot

:22:34.:22:37.

of people see young people set of to be worse off than their parents and

:22:38.:22:41.

there are a load of options we can look into. He/she were facing now is

:22:42.:22:45.

the Government is not willing to concede there is a problem with the

:22:46.:22:51.

system -- the issue we are facing. Everything is fine and it is OK

:22:52.:22:56.

young people are coming out of university with higher debt. We do

:22:57.:23:00.

not think that is right and we think society as a whole should pay for

:23:01.:23:07.

higher education is a public good. You vice Chancellor of the

:23:08.:23:11.

University of Reading and it is a buyers' market, you are at the coal

:23:12.:23:15.

face, how accurate is that description? Students have much more

:23:16.:23:21.

choice than ever before and the removal of the numbers of students

:23:22.:23:24.

has made the system more competitive. That is good for

:23:25.:23:27.

students. They have much more choice. Is it good for universities?

:23:28.:23:33.

I think so. I thought there were scrabbling around to get people. It

:23:34.:23:38.

enables universities to think about what it is they offer prospective

:23:39.:23:41.

students, students are more demanding and selective and it is

:23:42.:23:45.

important that we do provide what it is they expect to get a good

:23:46.:23:49.

education. I was trying to get Lord Willetts to talk about a figure that

:23:50.:23:54.

might be egregious. I understand you are paid around ?264,000 per annum,

:23:55.:23:59.

is that egregious? It is not for me to judge, the decisions about my pay

:24:00.:24:04.

made by independent members of the university governing body, the stain

:24:05.:24:08.

-- the same situation applies around the country. It is for them to make

:24:09.:24:14.

the decisions about what is appropriate. But how has it worked

:24:15.:24:20.

out? Reading is a high-flying university, you are 27th, well done.

:24:21.:24:24.

If we look at the pay packets, you are considerably higher up, you

:24:25.:24:28.

Steve Bruce at Aston Villa earning the money of Arsene Wenger at

:24:29.:24:33.

Arsenal, why? It is not for me to judge what is an appropriate level,

:24:34.:24:37.

that is for the independent members of university governing bodies and

:24:38.:24:40.

they will take account of a variety of factors including the relative

:24:41.:24:45.

pay of vice chancellors compared to others around the world, they will

:24:46.:24:48.

take account of the responsibilities we have. And we are running a major

:24:49.:24:54.

enterprises. Finally, we have studied the courses available,

:24:55.:24:58.

?9,000 to study food marketing at Reading University, what will a

:24:59.:25:02.

student loan? They learnt a lot that is valuable. The food industry in

:25:03.:25:07.

this country employs over 2.5 million people and their great jobs

:25:08.:25:11.

available in marketing around the food industry. That is something I

:25:12.:25:15.

want to bring to you in on, we heard from Lord Willetts that with the

:25:16.:25:18.

pressure now in the job market, young people have to and get these

:25:19.:25:22.

degrees or they are really handicapping themselves. You are at

:25:23.:25:26.

the coal face of that, would you agree? I would encourage a lot of

:25:27.:25:30.

people to go to university but it is about options. National union of

:25:31.:25:36.

students represents over 7 million students. Across higher education

:25:37.:25:39.

and further education. Further education are in the majority and I

:25:40.:25:43.

think many people within NUS would agree they are not often seen on a

:25:44.:25:47.

par with higher education and it is really important young people come

:25:48.:25:50.

out of school and they have options which are valued by society is

:25:51.:25:54.

equal. Student struggling in some cases to pay these fees and these

:25:55.:26:00.

loans, are you going to give me a figure that is egregious? Should

:26:01.:26:03.

vice chancellors be making this sort of money? I am not going to get

:26:04.:26:07.

drawn into this. Why will nobody give me this? It is quite difficult

:26:08.:26:12.

for students to see these high figures at a time when they are

:26:13.:26:15.

having to take on a lot of debt, at a time when the vice chancellors

:26:16.:26:19.

have done little to prevent is going down this road. That issue needs to

:26:20.:26:23.

be dealt with, but it is not the only issue and it will not solve the

:26:24.:26:27.

current funding crisis in our education. Thank you and good luck

:26:28.:26:30.

with your students, and good luck with getting the students into your

:26:31.:26:31.

university. The German election

:26:32.:26:33.

is a little over a month away. At this stage, it looks

:26:34.:26:36.

like Angela Merkel is probably on course to win her fourth term

:26:37.:26:38.

as Chancellor and for her CDU Party But it has been a turbulent few

:26:39.:26:42.

years for Mrs Merkel. Her decision to open the borders

:26:43.:26:46.

in 2015 saw more than a million refugees enter Germany,

:26:47.:26:49.

putting her under pressure and sparking a debate on how

:26:50.:26:50.

to handle the crisis. In the background, a new threat

:26:51.:26:55.

for the centre-right CDU has emerged from the populist right Alternative

:26:56.:26:58.

for Germany Party. Formed in 2013, support

:26:59.:27:01.

for its hardline, anti-immigration messages allowed it to win seats

:27:02.:27:04.

at local elections at the height Recent infighting and a row

:27:05.:27:07.

over how to remember the Nazis has pushed it back,

:27:08.:27:14.

but a poll this week suggested the AfD might win as much as 10%

:27:15.:27:19.

of the vote in September - enough to make it the third biggest

:27:20.:27:23.

party in parliament. Gabriel Gatehouse has been

:27:24.:27:25.

in Hamburg to ask what's This isn't the kind of place you'd

:27:26.:27:27.

expect a political crime mystery. But there have been sinister

:27:28.:27:46.

goings-on in this little village, population 800-odd, about an hour's

:27:47.:27:50.

drive north of Hamburg. Last September, the Mayor called

:27:51.:27:55.

a meeting of the local council. He suggested they house a refugee

:27:56.:28:01.

family in the village. So, everyone was inside the village

:28:02.:28:03.

hall for this meeting, including some police officers,

:28:04.:28:09.

because the Mayor had already Now, he popped out to get his laptop

:28:10.:28:11.

from his car, which was parked round the corner here,

:28:12.:28:19.

and that's where the attacker The Mayor was struck from behind

:28:20.:28:21.

with a blunt object. He later recovered, but couldn't

:28:22.:28:29.

identify the assailant. The residents of

:28:30.:28:34.

Oersdorf are on edge. Beyond Oersdorf, the towns

:28:35.:28:38.

of Schleswig-Holstein are home to a relatively small number

:28:39.:29:07.

of refugees, compared Chancellor Merkel has backed away

:29:08.:29:10.

from her open-door policy. But the effects of that summer

:29:11.:29:17.

are still felt today. The biggest political winner has

:29:18.:29:27.

been Alternative For Germany, or AfD, a right-wing party founded

:29:28.:29:31.

only four years ago that could become the third-largest

:29:32.:29:35.

in the Bundestag. They invited us to one

:29:36.:29:41.

of their events, with their deputy leader,

:29:42.:29:43.

Beatrix von Storch. Frau von Storch is descended

:29:44.:29:50.

from European aristocracy and, if enough British Royals suddenly

:29:51.:29:55.

dropped dead, could conceivably move But behind the sausages

:29:56.:29:57.

and the joviality, their posters tell a different story,

:29:58.:30:07.

with barely concealed nationalistic references to German

:30:08.:30:12.

ethnicity and homeland. This may look pretty tame,

:30:13.:30:14.

but it's hard to overstate how radical it feels in the German

:30:15.:30:20.

context to have these kinds of placards -

:30:21.:30:22.

the words Deutschland, Heimat, homeland -

:30:23.:30:25.

at a political rally. Germany's always footing

:30:26.:30:33.

the bill, they say. But most of all, they talk

:30:34.:30:40.

about Islam and immigration. When did you start getting

:30:41.:30:46.

interested in this party? Oh, it was when Mrs Merkel

:30:47.:30:49.

opened the borders. She thinks she's the Queen

:30:50.:30:53.

of Germany, or what. Beatrix von Storch has, in the past,

:30:54.:31:01.

suggested using armed force against child migrants

:31:02.:31:12.

at Germany's borders. I put it to her that her party's

:31:13.:31:16.

posters were dog whistles Er, we are saying Islam does

:31:17.:31:19.

not belong to Germany, which is a historical fact,

:31:20.:31:24.

and we're making very clear we don't want to move towards a society

:31:25.:31:27.

which is more and more I don't think you can call

:31:28.:31:29.

that the way you just called it. You have got to posters, one says

:31:30.:31:51.

our homeland, the other says new Germans, we will make them

:31:52.:31:56.

ourselves, a very obviously pregnant white woman. How is that not hinting

:31:57.:32:04.

at a much darker slogan from a previous era, which was blood and

:32:05.:32:05.

soil? I mean, it's very normal

:32:06.:32:07.

what we're saying. And I'm just saying we don't

:32:08.:32:11.

want to have the reproduction of our country done only by others,

:32:12.:32:13.

or by migration, And can you understand why, given

:32:14.:32:25.

generally's history, some people are worried about that?

:32:26.:32:26.

Because you can't ask us to not be linked to our country.

:32:27.:32:30.

Or to ask us to - you have to give up your sovereignty,

:32:31.:32:33.

you have to take in migration, millions and even more millions

:32:34.:32:36.

to come because of your history, you have to give up your culture.

:32:37.:32:39.

Any kind of win for the AfD would be unprecedented for Germany,

:32:40.:32:49.

the first time since the end of the Nazi era that an overtly

:32:50.:32:52.

nationalist party has a presence in the German Parliament.

:32:53.:32:56.

Those who support the AfD are not necessarily those who are,

:32:57.:33:01.

um, socially deprived, but those who are anxious

:33:02.:33:04.

The idea that voters, that they have no influence

:33:05.:33:14.

in politics and that they cannot trust the political establishment

:33:15.:33:17.

in Germany, and that the AfD - as the name suggests -

:33:18.:33:21.

The day after the rally, we went to see Jutta Brendel -

:33:22.:33:27.

at her home in a commuters' suburb of Hamburg.

:33:28.:33:32.

She and her husband once voted for the centre-left.

:33:33.:33:35.

Now they say all the mainstream parties are the same.

:33:36.:33:39.

But she admits her support for the right-wing AfD is not

:33:40.:33:42.

without its qualms about the darkest chapter in German history -

:33:43.:33:46.

There are still, still people in Germany,

:33:47.:33:54.

they have brown suits in the cellar. Sure.

:33:55.:34:03.

If you are acknowledged that there are people in the AFP, maybe not all

:34:04.:34:11.

but some, who want to pull Germany back in this Nazi direction, doesn't

:34:12.:34:14.

that make you feel very uncomfortable?

:34:15.:34:15.

But, you see, um, I have no other chance in this

:34:16.:34:18.

Not all Germans are fearful of refugees and migrants.

:34:19.:34:29.

The AfD knows it'll not end up in government,

:34:30.:34:35.

no matter what happens in the election, but with seats

:34:36.:34:39.

in Parliament, it will be in a strong position

:34:40.:34:41.

to shift the German political mainstream to the right.

:34:42.:34:47.

It was the 70th anniversary of Partition earlier this week.

:34:48.:34:49.

You may have noticed - the BBC produced a lot of output

:34:50.:34:52.

about the events which preceded and followed the decision in 1947

:34:53.:34:55.

to split British India into the separate nations

:34:56.:34:58.

Newsnight dedicated its entire programme to the subject on Tuesday,

:34:59.:35:06.

but since then, some have questioned whether too much emphasis

:35:07.:35:09.

has been put on the negative aspects of empire.

:35:10.:35:11.

Writing in the Daily Mail today, the columnist Stephen Glover

:35:12.:35:14.

accused Newsnight of indulging in an "orgy of self-flaggelation"

:35:15.:35:17.

and of failing to reflect the good that British rule did.

:35:18.:35:21.

So is our memory of history clouded by an over-eagerness

:35:22.:35:23.

that some believe came with the rough?

:35:24.:35:31.

And also back with us is Professor Joya Chatterji,

:35:32.:35:34.

one of the historians from our panel on Tuesday.

:35:35.:35:41.

Stephen, thank you for coming in. Why would have you been so upset

:35:42.:35:47.

with how the Empire has been portrayed not just here about Don

:35:48.:35:53.

Mike Butt across the spectrum? It is British India we are talking about,

:35:54.:35:56.

and again and again it is suggested that the British were primarily, if

:35:57.:36:02.

not exclusively responsible for the millions odd people who died after

:36:03.:36:05.

Partition, when in fact the British are tried. Years to broker a deal

:36:06.:36:10.

between the Muslim league and the Hindu dominated Congress. And the

:36:11.:36:20.

head of the Muslim league did not want to come to an agreement. The

:36:21.:36:28.

major politicians did not want Partition to happen, and the British

:36:29.:36:31.

were left on the sidelines. You don't believe it was a nation that

:36:32.:36:37.

was in any way subjugated, then? It had been subjugated. In quite brutal

:36:38.:36:46.

fashion. The Buccaneers who started it would not have been recognised by

:36:47.:36:52.

the rather high-minded incorruptible officials who put it to bed. So when

:36:53.:36:57.

you talk about the Empire, you talk about a huge, diverse enterprise

:36:58.:37:02.

involving many people, but in the end I don't think in the instead

:37:03.:37:06.

feel subjugated, no. Another thing to remember is that only about

:37:07.:37:10.

100,000 British officials and soldiers were present in the country

:37:11.:37:15.

of well over 300 million people, and many Indians never saw a white face.

:37:16.:37:24.

Professor, any thing positive about the British in India? I don't want

:37:25.:37:30.

to reduce it into that kind positive or negative, railways and cricket

:37:31.:37:36.

against subjugation, it is more complex than that. I take on board

:37:37.:37:41.

the point is that Stephen Glover has made, that there wasn't necessarily

:37:42.:37:45.

always and intent on the part of Britons to do evil things to

:37:46.:37:49.

Indians. That there was a great deal of Indian involvement in certain

:37:50.:37:55.

ranks with the project of empire. Where does the blame live for the

:37:56.:37:58.

deaths that happened after Partition, the hands of the British?

:37:59.:38:07.

I think it is divided. The fact that there was an ignominious scuttle for

:38:08.:38:12.

which not adequate preparation was made has to be recognised and is

:38:13.:38:16.

widely recognised by historians. You did write that in your article, the

:38:17.:38:22.

Viceroy raised through it too quickly. Yes, he arrived in India in

:38:23.:38:27.

March, and it was independent four or five months later. It did happen

:38:28.:38:35.

too quickly. There was tremendous pressure from the Congress party,

:38:36.:38:39.

they wanted to get on with it. But there is no question the British

:38:40.:38:44.

were moving too quickly. Coming back to you, professor, is

:38:45.:38:51.

there too much ignorance about the role of the British in India? Too

:38:52.:38:54.

much like of knowledge among British schoolchildren? Absolutely. I think

:38:55.:39:00.

that is part of the reason why we are having this sort of debate, in

:39:01.:39:09.

which we are actually having a pro versus con Empire debate. We need to

:39:10.:39:12.

have a better understanding in which young British people can face up to

:39:13.:39:15.

what this is Terry was... Can they be proud of the Empire? I would not

:39:16.:39:25.

say that, no. I have kind of got to do that point! Stephen? There are

:39:26.:39:31.

lots of positives, and negatives as well, but as I said in that piece,

:39:32.:39:37.

George Orwell, who was no friend of the empire at all, noted in the

:39:38.:39:41.

1930s that if you look at a map of Asia, most of the railways were in

:39:42.:39:46.

India, and when we left, the British left, there were about 40,000 miles

:39:47.:39:51.

of railways, there was a democratic apparatus, a free and robust

:39:52.:39:56.

press... You are shaking your head. And quite a robust economy, India

:39:57.:40:02.

was a major economy. Cluttering your eyes, Professor! First of all, those

:40:03.:40:06.

railways were paid for by Indian taxpayers in their entirety, built

:40:07.:40:14.

to serve British interests, and they were not useful for the... After

:40:15.:40:22.

independence. They were not useful for the Indian economy, which was

:40:23.:40:26.

subjugated to British interests, absolutely not, and the point is

:40:27.:40:30.

that the idea that India was turned into this flourishing economy could

:40:31.:40:37.

not be further from the truth. From 1867, between 1867 and 1900, you

:40:38.:40:41.

have 20 million deaths from famine. I must leave the words to you,

:40:42.:40:46.

Stephen, do you feel proud of the British Empire and British India?

:40:47.:40:51.

The British have some reason to feel pride for what they did, and I think

:40:52.:40:54.

a lot of Indians recognised that, and India is on its way to being a

:40:55.:41:01.

superpower. We should be happy about that too. No famines since

:41:02.:41:06.

independence! But a lot of starvation. That is it for tonight.

:41:07.:41:09.

But before we go, we've been marking the Proms season with some live

:41:10.:41:12.

Tonight, it's the BBC Singers with conductor Sofi Jeannin

:41:13.:41:15.

They'll be at the Royal Albert Hall on Sunday.

:41:16.:41:19.

We're going to get some wet weather developing overnight and pushing

:41:20.:43:03.

across northern parts of the UK, quite a wet start in Scotland, that

:43:04.:43:07.

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