Browse content similar to 17/08/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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And yet again, the attacker used a vehicle as his weapon. | :00:00. | :00:12. | |
At least 13 are dead and over a hundred injured | :00:13. | :00:17. | |
in the attack on one of Barcelona's busiest tourist areas. | :00:18. | :00:22. | |
Then I saw it careering down the road, going about 40-50 mph | :00:23. | :00:25. | |
and, you know, if anything, picking up pace. | :00:26. | :00:27. | |
And, you know, I heard people screaming, | :00:28. | :00:29. | |
and I thought immediately, "This is a terrorist attack." | :00:30. | :00:35. | |
We'll discuss what this attack can tell us about | :00:36. | :00:38. | |
Are my allowed to change my results by don't like them?! | :00:39. | :00:47. | |
Also tonight, as A-level students get their results, | :00:48. | :00:49. | |
what kind of higher education system is waiting for them? | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
I don't want to rain on kids' parades today, | :00:54. | :00:55. | |
they're getting their A-level results and, you know, they've done | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
really well, but the bottom line is I think the system is pretty broken. | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
And in the week when we remembered Partition, | :01:04. | :01:05. | |
is history too negative about the British Empire? | :01:06. | :01:07. | |
This man thinks it's time for a reappraisal. | :01:08. | :01:17. | |
Even pointing out that the scenes have become sadly familiar has | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
This is the situation in Barcelona tonight, | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
after it became the latest European city to be hit by the violence | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
to which we have become so grimly accustomed. | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
A van, driven at speed through crowds of tourists | :01:37. | :01:39. | |
and locals on Las Ramblas, the city's most famous boulevard. | :01:40. | :01:42. | |
Spanish police are treating the incident as terrorism and have | :01:43. | :01:47. | |
It is unclear whether either was the driver of the van. | :01:48. | :02:02. | |
Tonight, the so-called Islamic State claimed responsibility. | :02:03. | :02:03. | |
If what happened does turn out to have been inspired | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
by the terror network, it would be the first Islamist plot | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
in Spain since the 2004 Madrid train bombing, | :02:10. | :02:11. | |
We'll be live in Barcelona in a moment. | :02:12. | :02:13. | |
It was just after 4pm when eight the van ploughed into a group of people | :02:14. | :02:33. | |
on the central boulevard that runs through Barcelona. Tourists and | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
local people took shelter in shops and judges as police began hunting | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
for the driver. The authorities quickly said they were dealing with | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
a terrorist attack and shuts down local Metro and train stations. | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
There have been conflicting reports about the number of casualties. | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
Government officials say 13 people have been killed and at least 100 | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
others have been injured. The Las Ramblas area is particularly popular | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
with tourists because of its famous food market, bars and restaurants. | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
It's still unclear how many people were involved in carrying out the | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
attack, but government officials say two suspects have been arrested. | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
Police have named one of the men as Driss Oukabir, who is alleged to | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
have rented the van used in the attack. He's in his 20s and it is | :03:19. | :03:25. | |
understood he was born Morocco. Vehicles have become the terrorist | :03:26. | :03:28. | |
weapon of choice. In June, eight people died when three jihadist Rane | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
van into pedestrians on London Bridge and then stabbed passers-by. | :03:33. | :03:39. | |
12 people were killed in Germany in December 2016 when a Tunisian | :03:40. | :03:42. | |
ploughed a track into a Christmas market. In the last few hours, so | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
called Islamic State have claimed responsibility for the attack | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
through their social media channels. Spanish authorities have been more | :03:53. | :03:55. | |
than aware of the global threat posed by Isis. The 2004 Madrid train | :03:56. | :04:01. | |
bombings remain the deadliest of attacks in Europe so far. 192 people | :04:02. | :04:09. | |
died when an Al-Qaeda inspired cell planted explosive devices on a | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
series of commuter trains. Since then, Spain has worked hard to | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
identify the threaded faces from Islamist terror networks, concluding | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
that another attack was inevitable. In June this year there was a core | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
ward needed anti-terror operation between authorities in the UK, Spain | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
and Germany. Six people were arrested for allegedly recruiting | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
fighters and raising funds. According to documents seen by the | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
El Pais newspaper, more than a thousand people are on the radar of | :04:39. | :04:41. | |
Spanish police, more than 200 people are being investigated by the | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
courts. Despite Spain's efforts to identify the unpredictable nature of | :04:48. | :04:49. | |
international terrorism, tonight and other European city reels from the | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
impact of a deadly attack. With me in the studio | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
is Professor Peter Neumann. He's an expert on radicalisation | :04:56. | :04:58. | |
and political violence at King's University and | :04:59. | :04:59. | |
has advised the Catalan police on issues around security | :05:00. | :05:02. | |
and terrorism. But first we are joined from | :05:03. | :05:13. | |
Barcelona by Justin Calderon, an American who witnessed the aftermath | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
of the attack today. What can you tell us about what you saw? Today | :05:18. | :05:24. | |
was one of the saddest days in Spanish history recently. I was | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
passed various videos from Catalan friends who witnessed the violence, | :05:31. | :05:37. | |
people were mowed down on Las Ramblas, the most popular tourist | :05:38. | :05:44. | |
avenue in Barcelona. Today is a grim day for Barcelona and for Spain, but | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
many have come out in solidarity, people are donating blood, there are | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
many volunteers lined up at two of the hospitals where the injured have | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
been taken. What did you actually recall seeing, Justin? Myself, I | :06:01. | :06:06. | |
live less than a calamitous away from Las Ramblas. -- less than a | :06:07. | :06:15. | |
kilometre away. It is the most diverse area of Barcelona, there are | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
many Muslims here. Indeed, myself, I went out and I spoke with people, | :06:21. | :06:26. | |
and there was only a state of shock and terror as Las Ramblas quickly | :06:27. | :06:33. | |
got the shutdown, and thereafter the rest of the centre of the city. | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
There are reports that the driver of the van was weaving, trying to | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
deliberately go for as many groups of people, can you give us any | :06:44. | :06:50. | |
narrative on that? I cannot confirm that. What I can confirm is that | :06:51. | :06:53. | |
there were many who were injured, not just in the centre, but on the | :06:54. | :07:00. | |
sidewalks, so it does appear that he was swerving. Lastly, if you can, | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
just briefly give us a pen picture of the area, described the area to | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
viewers. Today it is shutdown, the centre of Barcelona, which is one of | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
the most visited parts of Europe, is on complete shutdown. There is | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
yellow tape across all of the main avenues in the centre part of the | :07:20. | :07:27. | |
city. It is an shutdown. Justin Calderon, thanks for joining us from | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
Barcelona. Professor Peter Neumann, you have worked with these people, | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
why Barcelona, would you say? So Barcelona has been a hub of | :07:36. | :07:42. | |
radicalisation and Saller thirst bridges for many years. There was a | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
big plot in 2008, and that alerted the police to the possibility that | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
this may happen in Catalonia, and they started to prepare themselves | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
for this. They have been expecting this. Expecting it in what way? We | :07:58. | :08:03. | |
go back to 2004, the last time there was an attack, so it has been well | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
over a decade, hasn't it? And that was in Madrid, the Madrid bombings, | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
but we have known for some time that Barcelona in particular has been a | :08:14. | :08:20. | |
centre for jihadist preachers, they have attracted followers, it has | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
also been a connecting tissue between France and North Africa, so | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
a lot of people have been travelling through. There were dozens of | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
arrests over the past at two years, so police was very aware of the | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
possibility that people may be doing something in Barcelona itself, not | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
least because Las Ramblas, during the summer, are such an attractive | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
target. I am sure you have seen how, in other European cities - Brussels | :08:48. | :08:53. | |
and parts of Paris - there has been a virtual lockdown. What has been | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
the situation in the major Spanish cities, would you say? There has not | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
been a major lockdown. In Barcelona at this point we do not know how | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
many people were connected to this. We know about one, possibly two | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
suspects that have been arrested. It is not clear whether this was | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
carried out by a network or buy a very small group of purely inspired | :09:16. | :09:18. | |
people who were acting essentially on their own. And are we seeing an | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
ugly new tactic here? There are shades of the attack we witnessed in | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
London, a suggestion that this was a vehicle veering from side to side, | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
is this one of their new campaigns? Is clearly fits the pattern, and it | :09:34. | :09:41. | |
started in Nice last year with the lorry attack, and Isis has been | :09:42. | :09:44. | |
trying to promote this kind of attack for some time but was never | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
quite successful. The December of 2014, we saw a number of attempted | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
attacks on Christmas market in France which killed one or two | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
people. The Nice happened, killing 86 people, and it caused a lot of | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
enthusiasm amongst jihadist supporters, and it created a dynamic | :10:05. | :10:08. | |
where people work copycat thing that kind of attack, it became very | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
popular. It is because Isis have been pushed back in Raqqa? Now they | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
have moved to the random sort of attack in European cities? I think | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
it is part of the explanation. Since last year, we have seen Isis saying, | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
don't come to the caliphate anymore. They used to say it was a duty to | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
travel to the caliphate, but now they are saying, stay where you are, | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
hit them where it hurts the most, which is at home. The logic behind | :10:36. | :10:41. | |
it is an asymmetric attack. They are saying, you are attacking us where | :10:42. | :10:44. | |
we are, we will attack you where you are. Peter Neumann, thank you for | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
joining us this evening. It's one of the perennial | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
stories of summer. Each August, A-level results day | :10:52. | :10:53. | |
sparks scenes of joy and disappointment for teenagers | :10:54. | :10:55. | |
across the country, before the scramble | :10:56. | :10:57. | |
for university places begins. But today, things perhaps | :10:58. | :10:58. | |
felt a little different. For one, the debate over tuition | :10:59. | :11:00. | |
fees - at ?9,000 a year - was brought alive before | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
the election, when the Labour Party made ditching them one | :11:05. | :11:06. | |
of its flagship pledges. And today, we heard | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
of an unprecedented buyers' market in clearing, with confirmed places | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
down 2% on last year and many universities | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
seeking students to fill their lecture | :11:20. | :11:20. | |
halls from September. Beyond this, some have asked bigger | :11:21. | :11:23. | |
questions about whether mass access to higher education | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
is really the best thing Helen Thomas has been | :11:28. | :11:29. | |
examining the picture. Results day was once irrelevant - | :11:30. | :11:39. | |
to most of the country, at least. In the 1950s, less than 5% of | :11:40. | :11:46. | |
young people went to university. These days, close to half | :11:47. | :11:49. | |
of 18-year-olds And that's despite growing | :11:50. | :11:51. | |
unease about the system. Fees of ?9,000 a year, | :11:52. | :12:03. | |
interest rates of over 6% back at the centre of | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
the political agenda. True, the total number of students | :12:08. | :12:16. | |
accepted the university today fell slightly last year, | :12:17. | :12:18. | |
but the percentage of English and Scottish 18-year-olds | :12:19. | :12:21. | |
getting a university The simple critique | :12:22. | :12:24. | |
is that high fees discourage people from | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
going to university, and that just doesn't | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
appear to be true. Loans that are only paid back | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
when future earnings hit a certain level have | :12:38. | :12:39. | |
worked in that regard. The bigger question | :12:40. | :12:41. | |
is whether shovelling more and more students into the university system | :12:42. | :12:44. | |
is the right thing to do. Are the students still | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
getting value for money? And are more and more | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
university graduates what the country and the economy | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
really needs? Well, I don't want to rain | :12:58. | :12:59. | |
on kids' parades today. They are getting their | :13:00. | :13:02. | |
A-level results today and they've done really well, | :13:03. | :13:04. | |
but the bottom line is, We've got one in two 18-year-olds | :13:05. | :13:06. | |
now going to university. They are coming out, | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
average debt is about ?57,000. Their chances of | :13:11. | :13:12. | |
getting a job that is going to pay them enough to repay | :13:13. | :13:15. | |
that debt, very small. Very few are going to get graduate | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
level jobs, as we know them. And on top of that, you've | :13:20. | :13:22. | |
got a black hole in the public finances because the | :13:23. | :13:25. | |
Government is lending money It's a system that | :13:26. | :13:27. | |
doesn't work for anyone. The Institute for Fiscal Studies | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
found that graduates do earn more than non-graduates, | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
the so-called graduate premium. And non-graduates were twice | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
as likely to have But they found big | :13:41. | :13:42. | |
differences to those returns between different institutions | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
and between different subjects. The graduate earnings premium | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
continues to be robust and obviously it's an average, | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
and you are right to say, to draw attention to the fact | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
that there are some courses which are not delivering | :14:02. | :14:04. | |
those kind of returns. And that is why as a | :14:05. | :14:06. | |
government, we are working very hard to make sure | :14:07. | :14:08. | |
students have the capacity for informed choices, | :14:09. | :14:11. | |
so they know where the returns are good, they know where | :14:12. | :14:13. | |
graduate outcomes are good. If students need to be | :14:14. | :14:15. | |
more discerning, could the same be said of | :14:16. | :14:17. | |
universities as well? Fees now account for about half | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
of university funding, up from maybe a third before | :14:22. | :14:25. | |
the last hike in fees. That has led to a scramble | :14:26. | :14:28. | |
for some institutions At the moment, universities | :14:29. | :14:30. | |
are really engaged in what has been called | :14:31. | :14:33. | |
a race to the bottom. They are taking students with less | :14:34. | :14:36. | |
than two E grades at A-level, putting them onto | :14:37. | :14:39. | |
university degree courses. And that's just | :14:40. | :14:42. | |
a disaster, because these students | :14:43. | :14:45. | |
are not going to succeed. Dropout rates at universities | :14:46. | :14:47. | |
are rising and every time a student drops out, that's | :14:48. | :14:50. | |
a personal tragedy. Some think the UK system has just | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
lost sight of the fact that university is not or should | :14:56. | :14:58. | |
not be for everyone. And that other options | :14:59. | :15:00. | |
like vocational courses or apprenticeships have | :15:01. | :15:02. | |
been squeezed out. I don't think as a country, we need | :15:03. | :15:09. | |
more university students, no. I have felt for a long | :15:10. | :15:12. | |
time that we have made a terrible mistake in | :15:13. | :15:14. | |
this Whereas pretty much everyone else | :15:15. | :15:15. | |
in the world has more than one type of higher | :15:16. | :15:25. | |
education institution, we have decided to put all our eggs | :15:26. | :15:27. | |
into a university So basically, if at 18 you want | :15:28. | :15:29. | |
to do some further study, you can go to a university | :15:30. | :15:37. | |
or you can go to university. You can do a three-year | :15:38. | :15:39. | |
degree or you can do a It's something the Government | :15:40. | :15:42. | |
is trying to change, upping both the provision and the prestige | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
of technical and vocational courses. More options could be | :15:47. | :15:49. | |
better for the next generation of students | :15:50. | :15:51. | |
and the David Willets was Universities | :15:52. | :15:52. | |
Minister when the Coalition He's now a Conservative peer | :15:53. | :15:55. | |
and joins us from Southampton. Amatey Doku is Vice Chair | :15:56. | :16:02. | |
of the National Union of Students. And Sir David Bell | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
is the Vice Chancellor He was previously the senior | :16:08. | :16:09. | |
civil servant in the Nick Timothy, the Prime Minister's | :16:10. | :16:21. | |
former Chief of Staff, wrote in the Daily Telegraph today that | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
effectively, this has become a Ponzi scheme. This is not offering value, | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
calling for radical reform and is unsustainable and ultimately | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
Pointless, how accurate is he? I do not agree with Nick and that's | :16:36. | :16:38. | |
because the Government of course does provide money to the students | :16:39. | :16:41. | |
when they go to university and expects them to pay back if they are | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
in well-paid jobs and the economic evidence is still pretty clear that | :16:47. | :16:49. | |
on average, being a graduate is going to earn you more than being a | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
non-graduate. Setting aside economic gains, the broadening of your | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
horizons as the kind of experience you have during those three years | :16:59. | :17:01. | |
that she up for life. I am a believer in more people going to | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
university, it has worked well for Britain and individuals. Of course | :17:07. | :17:08. | |
there have to be a range of other options as well, but Bush and people | :17:09. | :17:15. | |
getting good A-level grades today and going forward university have a | :17:16. | :17:18. | |
good chance of three years to transform their lives for the | :17:19. | :17:21. | |
better. Yes, good luck to them, you say it is good for those people but | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
a recent report shows a third of graduates are in jobs where they did | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
not need the degree in the first place, how'd you justify that? | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
During their 20s, especially since the crash, there has been a slower | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
process of younger people getting promotion and moving on and up in | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
the jobs ladder. However, in eight of the jobs market, it makes going | :17:45. | :17:47. | |
to university and being a graduate even more important -- in a jobs | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
market. Non-graduate jobs, when you look closely, maybe the jobs | :17:53. | :17:56. | |
themselves have become more technically demanding, maybe the | :17:57. | :17:59. | |
regulations have become more own arrest and the level of equipment | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
you have to deal with is more sophisticated. There does seem to be | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
a process around Western countries where jobs do become graduate jobs | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
and that is not necessarily a bad thing and that may tell you | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
something about how economy -- the Comey has advanced. The fees and now | :18:16. | :18:22. | |
?9,000, is the education nine times better and what is the interest | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
charged on the money? I will be frank about this, there were lots of | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
reasons for putting in the fees at 9,000 and I was involved in that. It | :18:32. | :18:37. | |
was partly that we could see that universities had been underfunded | :18:38. | :18:40. | |
and students had been in crowded seminars, in dilapidated building | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
does buildings, with a lack of access to equipment for technical | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
courses and we needed to boost the resource of going to university and | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
no government could do that by putting in more public spending. How | :18:55. | :18:57. | |
comfortable are you with 6%, that is a lot of money? It is not money for | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
the students, they do not pay upfront. But ultimately, come on! | :19:03. | :19:08. | |
What matters is graduates pay back at 9% of their earnings of ?21,000 a | :19:09. | :19:14. | |
year, that is the crucial figure. For many graduates, above a high | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
threshold, their income tax rate which is all taken out, not like a | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
mortgage or a credit card debt, is 29%, not 20%. That is a big change | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
in the British labour market but nothing like young people having | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
overdrafts or credit card debt, it is not that kind of debt. Some of | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
these vice chancellors, they like Premier League football players, | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
451,000 for a vice Chancellor at the University of Bath, hundreds of | :19:45. | :19:46. | |
thousands of pounds, is it sustainable and justifiable? I can | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
see that those examples are egregious and I can see the anger | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
that has broken out. But keeping it in proportion, and you are who | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
started this, there is about 100 vice chancellors and Adonis thinks | :20:02. | :20:09. | |
they are each earning too much, that is ?10 million. Fees bring in ?11 | :20:10. | :20:15. | |
million a year to educate our students and to deprive them of that | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
because she think ?10 million badly spent, would be letting the tail | :20:21. | :20:23. | |
work the dog, it is not proportionate. How much is too much? | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
Should they be paid more than the Prime Minister? Universities are not | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
part of the public sector, they are charitable institutions and they | :20:34. | :20:35. | |
have to have rigorous assessment of the pay, but the level of vice | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
Chancellor pay is not a reason for changing a system delivering over a | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
million students and bring in billions into our higher system. | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
What figure is egregious? One of the good features of our universities is | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
they are an autonomous body so I will not tell universities. Is | :20:55. | :21:02. | |
?250,000 egregious? A simple yes or no. We do not run them from | :21:03. | :21:08. | |
Whitehall. There are countries where politicians decide pay rates at | :21:09. | :21:11. | |
universities and bank happens England is not one of them. You | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
brought him the word egregious, there must be a figure. Do I go to | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
?300,000 question what people will have a personal view but it is | :21:21. | :21:23. | |
important for universities that the pay rates are determined | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
professionally with remuneration arrangements and it is not for me to | :21:29. | :21:36. | |
tell universities about pay rates. I think universities are autonomous | :21:37. | :21:38. | |
and that should be respected. Thank you for your time. The National | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
Union of Teachers. You believe all fees should be scrapped, am I right? | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
That is a noble initiative. How do we pay for it? First of all, I want | :21:50. | :21:55. | |
to congratulate the students who got A-level results today, they did | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
really good and important they are coming to our universities. | :22:00. | :22:02. | |
Unfortunately, they will be saddled with a lot of debt. As David | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
Willetts made very clear, there was a problem with the underfunding of | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
universities and somebody has to pay for it and it is completely | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
unacceptable to say this has to be forced on the individual student. | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
Generations of young people are thought to be worse off than their | :22:19. | :22:21. | |
parents and it should be paid through progressive taxation. The | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
idea there was no money left was blown open at this election and we | :22:26. | :22:28. | |
saw Theresa May say there was no money left and they found quite a | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
lot of money for the DUP. The conversation has now shifted. A lot | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
of people see young people set of to be worse off than their parents and | :22:38. | :22:41. | |
there are a load of options we can look into. He/she were facing now is | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
the Government is not willing to concede there is a problem with the | :22:46. | :22:51. | |
system -- the issue we are facing. Everything is fine and it is OK | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
young people are coming out of university with higher debt. We do | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
not think that is right and we think society as a whole should pay for | :23:01. | :23:07. | |
higher education is a public good. You vice Chancellor of the | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
University of Reading and it is a buyers' market, you are at the coal | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
face, how accurate is that description? Students have much more | :23:16. | :23:21. | |
choice than ever before and the removal of the numbers of students | :23:22. | :23:24. | |
has made the system more competitive. That is good for | :23:25. | :23:27. | |
students. They have much more choice. Is it good for universities? | :23:28. | :23:33. | |
I think so. I thought there were scrabbling around to get people. It | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
enables universities to think about what it is they offer prospective | :23:39. | :23:41. | |
students, students are more demanding and selective and it is | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
important that we do provide what it is they expect to get a good | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
education. I was trying to get Lord Willetts to talk about a figure that | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
might be egregious. I understand you are paid around ?264,000 per annum, | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
is that egregious? It is not for me to judge, the decisions about my pay | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
made by independent members of the university governing body, the stain | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
-- the same situation applies around the country. It is for them to make | :24:09. | :24:14. | |
the decisions about what is appropriate. But how has it worked | :24:15. | :24:20. | |
out? Reading is a high-flying university, you are 27th, well done. | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
If we look at the pay packets, you are considerably higher up, you | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
Steve Bruce at Aston Villa earning the money of Arsene Wenger at | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
Arsenal, why? It is not for me to judge what is an appropriate level, | :24:34. | :24:37. | |
that is for the independent members of university governing bodies and | :24:38. | :24:40. | |
they will take account of a variety of factors including the relative | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
pay of vice chancellors compared to others around the world, they will | :24:46. | :24:48. | |
take account of the responsibilities we have. And we are running a major | :24:49. | :24:54. | |
enterprises. Finally, we have studied the courses available, | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
?9,000 to study food marketing at Reading University, what will a | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
student loan? They learnt a lot that is valuable. The food industry in | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
this country employs over 2.5 million people and their great jobs | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
available in marketing around the food industry. That is something I | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
want to bring to you in on, we heard from Lord Willetts that with the | :25:16. | :25:18. | |
pressure now in the job market, young people have to and get these | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
degrees or they are really handicapping themselves. You are at | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
the coal face of that, would you agree? I would encourage a lot of | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
people to go to university but it is about options. National union of | :25:31. | :25:36. | |
students represents over 7 million students. Across higher education | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
and further education. Further education are in the majority and I | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
think many people within NUS would agree they are not often seen on a | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
par with higher education and it is really important young people come | :25:48. | :25:50. | |
out of school and they have options which are valued by society is | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
equal. Student struggling in some cases to pay these fees and these | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
loans, are you going to give me a figure that is egregious? Should | :26:01. | :26:03. | |
vice chancellors be making this sort of money? I am not going to get | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
drawn into this. Why will nobody give me this? It is quite difficult | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
for students to see these high figures at a time when they are | :26:13. | :26:15. | |
having to take on a lot of debt, at a time when the vice chancellors | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
have done little to prevent is going down this road. That issue needs to | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
be dealt with, but it is not the only issue and it will not solve the | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
current funding crisis in our education. Thank you and good luck | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
with your students, and good luck with getting the students into your | :26:31. | :26:31. | |
university. The German election | :26:32. | :26:33. | |
is a little over a month away. At this stage, it looks | :26:34. | :26:36. | |
like Angela Merkel is probably on course to win her fourth term | :26:37. | :26:38. | |
as Chancellor and for her CDU Party But it has been a turbulent few | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
years for Mrs Merkel. Her decision to open the borders | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
in 2015 saw more than a million refugees enter Germany, | :26:47. | :26:49. | |
putting her under pressure and sparking a debate on how | :26:50. | :26:50. | |
to handle the crisis. In the background, a new threat | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
for the centre-right CDU has emerged from the populist right Alternative | :26:56. | :26:58. | |
for Germany Party. Formed in 2013, support | :26:59. | :27:01. | |
for its hardline, anti-immigration messages allowed it to win seats | :27:02. | :27:04. | |
at local elections at the height Recent infighting and a row | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
over how to remember the Nazis has pushed it back, | :27:08. | :27:14. | |
but a poll this week suggested the AfD might win as much as 10% | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
of the vote in September - enough to make it the third biggest | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
party in parliament. Gabriel Gatehouse has been | :27:24. | :27:25. | |
in Hamburg to ask what's This isn't the kind of place you'd | :27:26. | :27:27. | |
expect a political crime mystery. But there have been sinister | :27:28. | :27:46. | |
goings-on in this little village, population 800-odd, about an hour's | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
drive north of Hamburg. Last September, the Mayor called | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
a meeting of the local council. He suggested they house a refugee | :27:56. | :28:01. | |
family in the village. So, everyone was inside the village | :28:02. | :28:03. | |
hall for this meeting, including some police officers, | :28:04. | :28:09. | |
because the Mayor had already Now, he popped out to get his laptop | :28:10. | :28:11. | |
from his car, which was parked round the corner here, | :28:12. | :28:19. | |
and that's where the attacker The Mayor was struck from behind | :28:20. | :28:21. | |
with a blunt object. He later recovered, but couldn't | :28:22. | :28:29. | |
identify the assailant. The residents of | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
Oersdorf are on edge. Beyond Oersdorf, the towns | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
of Schleswig-Holstein are home to a relatively small number | :28:39. | :29:07. | |
of refugees, compared Chancellor Merkel has backed away | :29:08. | :29:10. | |
from her open-door policy. But the effects of that summer | :29:11. | :29:17. | |
are still felt today. The biggest political winner has | :29:18. | :29:27. | |
been Alternative For Germany, or AfD, a right-wing party founded | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
only four years ago that could become the third-largest | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
in the Bundestag. They invited us to one | :29:36. | :29:41. | |
of their events, with their deputy leader, | :29:42. | :29:43. | |
Beatrix von Storch. Frau von Storch is descended | :29:44. | :29:50. | |
from European aristocracy and, if enough British Royals suddenly | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
dropped dead, could conceivably move But behind the sausages | :29:56. | :29:57. | |
and the joviality, their posters tell a different story, | :29:58. | :30:07. | |
with barely concealed nationalistic references to German | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
ethnicity and homeland. This may look pretty tame, | :30:13. | :30:14. | |
but it's hard to overstate how radical it feels in the German | :30:15. | :30:20. | |
context to have these kinds of placards - | :30:21. | :30:22. | |
the words Deutschland, Heimat, homeland - | :30:23. | :30:25. | |
at a political rally. Germany's always footing | :30:26. | :30:33. | |
the bill, they say. But most of all, they talk | :30:34. | :30:40. | |
about Islam and immigration. When did you start getting | :30:41. | :30:46. | |
interested in this party? Oh, it was when Mrs Merkel | :30:47. | :30:49. | |
opened the borders. She thinks she's the Queen | :30:50. | :30:53. | |
of Germany, or what. Beatrix von Storch has, in the past, | :30:54. | :31:01. | |
suggested using armed force against child migrants | :31:02. | :31:12. | |
at Germany's borders. I put it to her that her party's | :31:13. | :31:16. | |
posters were dog whistles Er, we are saying Islam does | :31:17. | :31:19. | |
not belong to Germany, which is a historical fact, | :31:20. | :31:24. | |
and we're making very clear we don't want to move towards a society | :31:25. | :31:27. | |
which is more and more I don't think you can call | :31:28. | :31:29. | |
that the way you just called it. You have got to posters, one says | :31:30. | :31:51. | |
our homeland, the other says new Germans, we will make them | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
ourselves, a very obviously pregnant white woman. How is that not hinting | :31:57. | :32:04. | |
at a much darker slogan from a previous era, which was blood and | :32:05. | :32:05. | |
soil? I mean, it's very normal | :32:06. | :32:07. | |
what we're saying. And I'm just saying we don't | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
want to have the reproduction of our country done only by others, | :32:12. | :32:13. | |
or by migration, And can you understand why, given | :32:14. | :32:25. | |
generally's history, some people are worried about that? | :32:26. | :32:26. | |
Because you can't ask us to not be linked to our country. | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
Or to ask us to - you have to give up your sovereignty, | :32:31. | :32:33. | |
you have to take in migration, millions and even more millions | :32:34. | :32:36. | |
to come because of your history, you have to give up your culture. | :32:37. | :32:39. | |
Any kind of win for the AfD would be unprecedented for Germany, | :32:40. | :32:49. | |
the first time since the end of the Nazi era that an overtly | :32:50. | :32:52. | |
nationalist party has a presence in the German Parliament. | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
Those who support the AfD are not necessarily those who are, | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
um, socially deprived, but those who are anxious | :33:02. | :33:04. | |
The idea that voters, that they have no influence | :33:05. | :33:14. | |
in politics and that they cannot trust the political establishment | :33:15. | :33:17. | |
in Germany, and that the AfD - as the name suggests - | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
The day after the rally, we went to see Jutta Brendel - | :33:22. | :33:27. | |
at her home in a commuters' suburb of Hamburg. | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
She and her husband once voted for the centre-left. | :33:33. | :33:35. | |
Now they say all the mainstream parties are the same. | :33:36. | :33:39. | |
But she admits her support for the right-wing AfD is not | :33:40. | :33:42. | |
without its qualms about the darkest chapter in German history - | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
There are still, still people in Germany, | :33:47. | :33:54. | |
they have brown suits in the cellar. Sure. | :33:55. | :34:03. | |
If you are acknowledged that there are people in the AFP, maybe not all | :34:04. | :34:11. | |
but some, who want to pull Germany back in this Nazi direction, doesn't | :34:12. | :34:14. | |
that make you feel very uncomfortable? | :34:15. | :34:15. | |
But, you see, um, I have no other chance in this | :34:16. | :34:18. | |
Not all Germans are fearful of refugees and migrants. | :34:19. | :34:29. | |
The AfD knows it'll not end up in government, | :34:30. | :34:35. | |
no matter what happens in the election, but with seats | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
in Parliament, it will be in a strong position | :34:40. | :34:41. | |
to shift the German political mainstream to the right. | :34:42. | :34:47. | |
It was the 70th anniversary of Partition earlier this week. | :34:48. | :34:49. | |
You may have noticed - the BBC produced a lot of output | :34:50. | :34:52. | |
about the events which preceded and followed the decision in 1947 | :34:53. | :34:55. | |
to split British India into the separate nations | :34:56. | :34:58. | |
Newsnight dedicated its entire programme to the subject on Tuesday, | :34:59. | :35:06. | |
but since then, some have questioned whether too much emphasis | :35:07. | :35:09. | |
has been put on the negative aspects of empire. | :35:10. | :35:11. | |
Writing in the Daily Mail today, the columnist Stephen Glover | :35:12. | :35:14. | |
accused Newsnight of indulging in an "orgy of self-flaggelation" | :35:15. | :35:17. | |
and of failing to reflect the good that British rule did. | :35:18. | :35:21. | |
So is our memory of history clouded by an over-eagerness | :35:22. | :35:23. | |
that some believe came with the rough? | :35:24. | :35:31. | |
And also back with us is Professor Joya Chatterji, | :35:32. | :35:34. | |
one of the historians from our panel on Tuesday. | :35:35. | :35:41. | |
Stephen, thank you for coming in. Why would have you been so upset | :35:42. | :35:47. | |
with how the Empire has been portrayed not just here about Don | :35:48. | :35:53. | |
Mike Butt across the spectrum? It is British India we are talking about, | :35:54. | :35:56. | |
and again and again it is suggested that the British were primarily, if | :35:57. | :36:02. | |
not exclusively responsible for the millions odd people who died after | :36:03. | :36:05. | |
Partition, when in fact the British are tried. Years to broker a deal | :36:06. | :36:10. | |
between the Muslim league and the Hindu dominated Congress. And the | :36:11. | :36:20. | |
head of the Muslim league did not want to come to an agreement. The | :36:21. | :36:28. | |
major politicians did not want Partition to happen, and the British | :36:29. | :36:31. | |
were left on the sidelines. You don't believe it was a nation that | :36:32. | :36:37. | |
was in any way subjugated, then? It had been subjugated. In quite brutal | :36:38. | :36:46. | |
fashion. The Buccaneers who started it would not have been recognised by | :36:47. | :36:52. | |
the rather high-minded incorruptible officials who put it to bed. So when | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
you talk about the Empire, you talk about a huge, diverse enterprise | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
involving many people, but in the end I don't think in the instead | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
feel subjugated, no. Another thing to remember is that only about | :37:07. | :37:10. | |
100,000 British officials and soldiers were present in the country | :37:11. | :37:15. | |
of well over 300 million people, and many Indians never saw a white face. | :37:16. | :37:24. | |
Professor, any thing positive about the British in India? I don't want | :37:25. | :37:30. | |
to reduce it into that kind positive or negative, railways and cricket | :37:31. | :37:36. | |
against subjugation, it is more complex than that. I take on board | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
the point is that Stephen Glover has made, that there wasn't necessarily | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
always and intent on the part of Britons to do evil things to | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
Indians. That there was a great deal of Indian involvement in certain | :37:50. | :37:55. | |
ranks with the project of empire. Where does the blame live for the | :37:56. | :37:58. | |
deaths that happened after Partition, the hands of the British? | :37:59. | :38:07. | |
I think it is divided. The fact that there was an ignominious scuttle for | :38:08. | :38:12. | |
which not adequate preparation was made has to be recognised and is | :38:13. | :38:16. | |
widely recognised by historians. You did write that in your article, the | :38:17. | :38:22. | |
Viceroy raised through it too quickly. Yes, he arrived in India in | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
March, and it was independent four or five months later. It did happen | :38:28. | :38:35. | |
too quickly. There was tremendous pressure from the Congress party, | :38:36. | :38:39. | |
they wanted to get on with it. But there is no question the British | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
were moving too quickly. Coming back to you, professor, is | :38:45. | :38:51. | |
there too much ignorance about the role of the British in India? Too | :38:52. | :38:54. | |
much like of knowledge among British schoolchildren? Absolutely. I think | :38:55. | :39:00. | |
that is part of the reason why we are having this sort of debate, in | :39:01. | :39:09. | |
which we are actually having a pro versus con Empire debate. We need to | :39:10. | :39:12. | |
have a better understanding in which young British people can face up to | :39:13. | :39:15. | |
what this is Terry was... Can they be proud of the Empire? I would not | :39:16. | :39:25. | |
say that, no. I have kind of got to do that point! Stephen? There are | :39:26. | :39:31. | |
lots of positives, and negatives as well, but as I said in that piece, | :39:32. | :39:37. | |
George Orwell, who was no friend of the empire at all, noted in the | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
1930s that if you look at a map of Asia, most of the railways were in | :39:42. | :39:46. | |
India, and when we left, the British left, there were about 40,000 miles | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
of railways, there was a democratic apparatus, a free and robust | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
press... You are shaking your head. And quite a robust economy, India | :39:57. | :40:02. | |
was a major economy. Cluttering your eyes, Professor! First of all, those | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
railways were paid for by Indian taxpayers in their entirety, built | :40:07. | :40:14. | |
to serve British interests, and they were not useful for the... After | :40:15. | :40:22. | |
independence. They were not useful for the Indian economy, which was | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
subjugated to British interests, absolutely not, and the point is | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
that the idea that India was turned into this flourishing economy could | :40:31. | :40:37. | |
not be further from the truth. From 1867, between 1867 and 1900, you | :40:38. | :40:41. | |
have 20 million deaths from famine. I must leave the words to you, | :40:42. | :40:46. | |
Stephen, do you feel proud of the British Empire and British India? | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
The British have some reason to feel pride for what they did, and I think | :40:52. | :40:54. | |
a lot of Indians recognised that, and India is on its way to being a | :40:55. | :41:01. | |
superpower. We should be happy about that too. No famines since | :41:02. | :41:06. | |
independence! But a lot of starvation. That is it for tonight. | :41:07. | :41:09. | |
But before we go, we've been marking the Proms season with some live | :41:10. | :41:12. | |
Tonight, it's the BBC Singers with conductor Sofi Jeannin | :41:13. | :41:15. | |
They'll be at the Royal Albert Hall on Sunday. | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
We're going to get some wet weather developing overnight and pushing | :41:20. | :43:03. | |
across northern parts of the UK, quite a wet start in Scotland, that | :43:04. | :43:07. |