17/08/2017 Newsnight


The latest on the Barcelona attack. On A-level day, is higher education broken? The German far-right. Has Indian Partition coverage been too negative about the British Empire?

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And yet again, the attacker used a vehicle as his weapon.


At least 13 are dead and over a hundred injured


in the attack on one of Barcelona's busiest tourist areas.


Then I saw it careering down the road, going about 40-50 mph


and, you know, if anything, picking up pace.


And, you know, I heard people screaming,


and I thought immediately, "This is a terrorist attack."


We'll discuss what this attack can tell us about


Are my allowed to change my results by don't like them?!


Also tonight, as A-level students get their results,


what kind of higher education system is waiting for them?


I don't want to rain on kids' parades today,


they're getting their A-level results and, you know, they've done


really well, but the bottom line is I think the system is pretty broken.


And in the week when we remembered Partition,


is history too negative about the British Empire?


This man thinks it's time for a reappraisal.


Even pointing out that the scenes have become sadly familiar has


This is the situation in Barcelona tonight,


after it became the latest European city to be hit by the violence


to which we have become so grimly accustomed.


A van, driven at speed through crowds of tourists


and locals on Las Ramblas, the city's most famous boulevard.


Spanish police are treating the incident as terrorism and have


It is unclear whether either was the driver of the van.


Tonight, the so-called Islamic State claimed responsibility.


If what happened does turn out to have been inspired


by the terror network, it would be the first Islamist plot


in Spain since the 2004 Madrid train bombing,


We'll be live in Barcelona in a moment.


It was just after 4pm when eight the van ploughed into a group of people


on the central boulevard that runs through Barcelona. Tourists and


local people took shelter in shops and judges as police began hunting


for the driver. The authorities quickly said they were dealing with


a terrorist attack and shuts down local Metro and train stations.


There have been conflicting reports about the number of casualties.


Government officials say 13 people have been killed and at least 100


others have been injured. The Las Ramblas area is particularly popular


with tourists because of its famous food market, bars and restaurants.


It's still unclear how many people were involved in carrying out the


attack, but government officials say two suspects have been arrested.


Police have named one of the men as Driss Oukabir, who is alleged to


have rented the van used in the attack. He's in his 20s and it is


understood he was born Morocco. Vehicles have become the terrorist


weapon of choice. In June, eight people died when three jihadist Rane


van into pedestrians on London Bridge and then stabbed passers-by.


12 people were killed in Germany in December 2016 when a Tunisian


ploughed a track into a Christmas market. In the last few hours, so


called Islamic State have claimed responsibility for the attack


through their social media channels. Spanish authorities have been more


than aware of the global threat posed by Isis. The 2004 Madrid train


bombings remain the deadliest of attacks in Europe so far. 192 people


died when an Al-Qaeda inspired cell planted explosive devices on a


series of commuter trains. Since then, Spain has worked hard to


identify the threaded faces from Islamist terror networks, concluding


that another attack was inevitable. In June this year there was a core


ward needed anti-terror operation between authorities in the UK, Spain


and Germany. Six people were arrested for allegedly recruiting


fighters and raising funds. According to documents seen by the


El Pais newspaper, more than a thousand people are on the radar of


Spanish police, more than 200 people are being investigated by the


courts. Despite Spain's efforts to identify the unpredictable nature of


international terrorism, tonight and other European city reels from the


impact of a deadly attack. With me in the studio


is Professor Peter Neumann. He's an expert on radicalisation


and political violence at King's University and


has advised the Catalan police on issues around security


and terrorism. But first we are joined from


Barcelona by Justin Calderon, an American who witnessed the aftermath


of the attack today. What can you tell us about what you saw? Today


was one of the saddest days in Spanish history recently. I was


passed various videos from Catalan friends who witnessed the violence,


people were mowed down on Las Ramblas, the most popular tourist


avenue in Barcelona. Today is a grim day for Barcelona and for Spain, but


many have come out in solidarity, people are donating blood, there are


many volunteers lined up at two of the hospitals where the injured have


been taken. What did you actually recall seeing, Justin? Myself, I


live less than a calamitous away from Las Ramblas. -- less than a


kilometre away. It is the most diverse area of Barcelona, there are


many Muslims here. Indeed, myself, I went out and I spoke with people,


and there was only a state of shock and terror as Las Ramblas quickly


got the shutdown, and thereafter the rest of the centre of the city.


There are reports that the driver of the van was weaving, trying to


deliberately go for as many groups of people, can you give us any


narrative on that? I cannot confirm that. What I can confirm is that


there were many who were injured, not just in the centre, but on the


sidewalks, so it does appear that he was swerving. Lastly, if you can,


just briefly give us a pen picture of the area, described the area to


viewers. Today it is shutdown, the centre of Barcelona, which is one of


the most visited parts of Europe, is on complete shutdown. There is


yellow tape across all of the main avenues in the centre part of the


city. It is an shutdown. Justin Calderon, thanks for joining us from


Barcelona. Professor Peter Neumann, you have worked with these people,


why Barcelona, would you say? So Barcelona has been a hub of


radicalisation and Saller thirst bridges for many years. There was a


big plot in 2008, and that alerted the police to the possibility that


this may happen in Catalonia, and they started to prepare themselves


for this. They have been expecting this. Expecting it in what way? We


go back to 2004, the last time there was an attack, so it has been well


over a decade, hasn't it? And that was in Madrid, the Madrid bombings,


but we have known for some time that Barcelona in particular has been a


centre for jihadist preachers, they have attracted followers, it has


also been a connecting tissue between France and North Africa, so


a lot of people have been travelling through. There were dozens of


arrests over the past at two years, so police was very aware of the


possibility that people may be doing something in Barcelona itself, not


least because Las Ramblas, during the summer, are such an attractive


target. I am sure you have seen how, in other European cities - Brussels


and parts of Paris - there has been a virtual lockdown. What has been


the situation in the major Spanish cities, would you say? There has not


been a major lockdown. In Barcelona at this point we do not know how


many people were connected to this. We know about one, possibly two


suspects that have been arrested. It is not clear whether this was


carried out by a network or buy a very small group of purely inspired


people who were acting essentially on their own. And are we seeing an


ugly new tactic here? There are shades of the attack we witnessed in


London, a suggestion that this was a vehicle veering from side to side,


is this one of their new campaigns? Is clearly fits the pattern, and it


started in Nice last year with the lorry attack, and Isis has been


trying to promote this kind of attack for some time but was never


quite successful. The December of 2014, we saw a number of attempted


attacks on Christmas market in France which killed one or two


people. The Nice happened, killing 86 people, and it caused a lot of


enthusiasm amongst jihadist supporters, and it created a dynamic


where people work copycat thing that kind of attack, it became very


popular. It is because Isis have been pushed back in Raqqa? Now they


have moved to the random sort of attack in European cities? I think


it is part of the explanation. Since last year, we have seen Isis saying,


don't come to the caliphate anymore. They used to say it was a duty to


travel to the caliphate, but now they are saying, stay where you are,


hit them where it hurts the most, which is at home. The logic behind


it is an asymmetric attack. They are saying, you are attacking us where


we are, we will attack you where you are. Peter Neumann, thank you for


joining us this evening. It's one of the perennial


stories of summer. Each August, A-level results day


sparks scenes of joy and disappointment for teenagers


across the country, before the scramble


for university places begins. But today, things perhaps


felt a little different. For one, the debate over tuition


fees - at ?9,000 a year - was brought alive before


the election, when the Labour Party made ditching them one


of its flagship pledges. And today, we heard


of an unprecedented buyers' market in clearing, with confirmed places


down 2% on last year and many universities


seeking students to fill their lecture


halls from September. Beyond this, some have asked bigger


questions about whether mass access to higher education


is really the best thing Helen Thomas has been


examining the picture. Results day was once irrelevant -


to most of the country, at least. In the 1950s, less than 5% of


young people went to university. These days, close to half


of 18-year-olds And that's despite growing


unease about the system. Fees of ?9,000 a year,


interest rates of over 6% back at the centre of


the political agenda. True, the total number of students


accepted the university today fell slightly last year,


but the percentage of English and Scottish 18-year-olds


getting a university The simple critique


is that high fees discourage people from


going to university, and that just doesn't


appear to be true. Loans that are only paid back


when future earnings hit a certain level have


worked in that regard. The bigger question


is whether shovelling more and more students into the university system


is the right thing to do. Are the students still


getting value for money? And are more and more


university graduates what the country and the economy


really needs? Well, I don't want to rain


on kids' parades today. They are getting their


A-level results today and they've done really well,


but the bottom line is, We've got one in two 18-year-olds


now going to university. They are coming out,


average debt is about ?57,000. Their chances of


getting a job that is going to pay them enough to repay


that debt, very small. Very few are going to get graduate


level jobs, as we know them. And on top of that, you've


got a black hole in the public finances because the


Government is lending money It's a system that


doesn't work for anyone. The Institute for Fiscal Studies


found that graduates do earn more than non-graduates,


the so-called graduate premium. And non-graduates were twice


as likely to have But they found big


differences to those returns between different institutions


and between different subjects. The graduate earnings premium


continues to be robust and obviously it's an average,


and you are right to say, to draw attention to the fact


that there are some courses which are not delivering


those kind of returns. And that is why as a


government, we are working very hard to make sure


students have the capacity for informed choices,


so they know where the returns are good, they know where


graduate outcomes are good. If students need to be


more discerning, could the same be said of


universities as well? Fees now account for about half


of university funding, up from maybe a third before


the last hike in fees. That has led to a scramble


for some institutions At the moment, universities


are really engaged in what has been called


a race to the bottom. They are taking students with less


than two E grades at A-level, putting them onto


university degree courses. And that's just


a disaster, because these students


are not going to succeed. Dropout rates at universities


are rising and every time a student drops out, that's


a personal tragedy. Some think the UK system has just


lost sight of the fact that university is not or should


not be for everyone. And that other options


like vocational courses or apprenticeships have


been squeezed out. I don't think as a country, we need


more university students, no. I have felt for a long


time that we have made a terrible mistake in


this Whereas pretty much everyone else


in the world has more than one type of higher


education institution, we have decided to put all our eggs


into a university So basically, if at 18 you want


to do some further study, you can go to a university


or you can go to university. You can do a three-year


degree or you can do a It's something the Government


is trying to change, upping both the provision and the prestige


of technical and vocational courses. More options could be


better for the next generation of students


and the David Willets was Universities


Minister when the Coalition He's now a Conservative peer


and joins us from Southampton. Amatey Doku is Vice Chair


of the National Union of Students. And Sir David Bell


is the Vice Chancellor He was previously the senior


civil servant in the Nick Timothy, the Prime Minister's


former Chief of Staff, wrote in the Daily Telegraph today that


effectively, this has become a Ponzi scheme. This is not offering value,


calling for radical reform and is unsustainable and ultimately


Pointless, how accurate is he? I do not agree with Nick and that's


because the Government of course does provide money to the students


when they go to university and expects them to pay back if they are


in well-paid jobs and the economic evidence is still pretty clear that


on average, being a graduate is going to earn you more than being a


non-graduate. Setting aside economic gains, the broadening of your


horizons as the kind of experience you have during those three years


that she up for life. I am a believer in more people going to


university, it has worked well for Britain and individuals. Of course


there have to be a range of other options as well, but Bush and people


getting good A-level grades today and going forward university have a


good chance of three years to transform their lives for the


better. Yes, good luck to them, you say it is good for those people but


a recent report shows a third of graduates are in jobs where they did


not need the degree in the first place, how'd you justify that?


During their 20s, especially since the crash, there has been a slower


process of younger people getting promotion and moving on and up in


the jobs ladder. However, in eight of the jobs market, it makes going


to university and being a graduate even more important -- in a jobs


market. Non-graduate jobs, when you look closely, maybe the jobs


themselves have become more technically demanding, maybe the


regulations have become more own arrest and the level of equipment


you have to deal with is more sophisticated. There does seem to be


a process around Western countries where jobs do become graduate jobs


and that is not necessarily a bad thing and that may tell you


something about how economy -- the Comey has advanced. The fees and now


?9,000, is the education nine times better and what is the interest


charged on the money? I will be frank about this, there were lots of


reasons for putting in the fees at 9,000 and I was involved in that. It


was partly that we could see that universities had been underfunded


and students had been in crowded seminars, in dilapidated building


does buildings, with a lack of access to equipment for technical


courses and we needed to boost the resource of going to university and


no government could do that by putting in more public spending. How


comfortable are you with 6%, that is a lot of money? It is not money for


the students, they do not pay upfront. But ultimately, come on!


What matters is graduates pay back at 9% of their earnings of ?21,000 a


year, that is the crucial figure. For many graduates, above a high


threshold, their income tax rate which is all taken out, not like a


mortgage or a credit card debt, is 29%, not 20%. That is a big change


in the British labour market but nothing like young people having


overdrafts or credit card debt, it is not that kind of debt. Some of


these vice chancellors, they like Premier League football players,


451,000 for a vice Chancellor at the University of Bath, hundreds of


thousands of pounds, is it sustainable and justifiable? I can


see that those examples are egregious and I can see the anger


that has broken out. But keeping it in proportion, and you are who


started this, there is about 100 vice chancellors and Adonis thinks


they are each earning too much, that is ?10 million. Fees bring in ?11


million a year to educate our students and to deprive them of that


because she think ?10 million badly spent, would be letting the tail


work the dog, it is not proportionate. How much is too much?


Should they be paid more than the Prime Minister? Universities are not


part of the public sector, they are charitable institutions and they


have to have rigorous assessment of the pay, but the level of vice


Chancellor pay is not a reason for changing a system delivering over a


million students and bring in billions into our higher system.


What figure is egregious? One of the good features of our universities is


they are an autonomous body so I will not tell universities. Is


?250,000 egregious? A simple yes or no. We do not run them from


Whitehall. There are countries where politicians decide pay rates at


universities and bank happens England is not one of them. You


brought him the word egregious, there must be a figure. Do I go to


?300,000 question what people will have a personal view but it is


important for universities that the pay rates are determined


professionally with remuneration arrangements and it is not for me to


tell universities about pay rates. I think universities are autonomous


and that should be respected. Thank you for your time. The National


Union of Teachers. You believe all fees should be scrapped, am I right?


That is a noble initiative. How do we pay for it? First of all, I want


to congratulate the students who got A-level results today, they did


really good and important they are coming to our universities.


Unfortunately, they will be saddled with a lot of debt. As David


Willetts made very clear, there was a problem with the underfunding of


universities and somebody has to pay for it and it is completely


unacceptable to say this has to be forced on the individual student.


Generations of young people are thought to be worse off than their


parents and it should be paid through progressive taxation. The


idea there was no money left was blown open at this election and we


saw Theresa May say there was no money left and they found quite a


lot of money for the DUP. The conversation has now shifted. A lot


of people see young people set of to be worse off than their parents and


there are a load of options we can look into. He/she were facing now is


the Government is not willing to concede there is a problem with the


system -- the issue we are facing. Everything is fine and it is OK


young people are coming out of university with higher debt. We do


not think that is right and we think society as a whole should pay for


higher education is a public good. You vice Chancellor of the


University of Reading and it is a buyers' market, you are at the coal


face, how accurate is that description? Students have much more


choice than ever before and the removal of the numbers of students


has made the system more competitive. That is good for


students. They have much more choice. Is it good for universities?


I think so. I thought there were scrabbling around to get people. It


enables universities to think about what it is they offer prospective


students, students are more demanding and selective and it is


important that we do provide what it is they expect to get a good


education. I was trying to get Lord Willetts to talk about a figure that


might be egregious. I understand you are paid around ?264,000 per annum,


is that egregious? It is not for me to judge, the decisions about my pay


made by independent members of the university governing body, the stain


-- the same situation applies around the country. It is for them to make


the decisions about what is appropriate. But how has it worked


out? Reading is a high-flying university, you are 27th, well done.


If we look at the pay packets, you are considerably higher up, you


Steve Bruce at Aston Villa earning the money of Arsene Wenger at


Arsenal, why? It is not for me to judge what is an appropriate level,


that is for the independent members of university governing bodies and


they will take account of a variety of factors including the relative


pay of vice chancellors compared to others around the world, they will


take account of the responsibilities we have. And we are running a major


enterprises. Finally, we have studied the courses available,


?9,000 to study food marketing at Reading University, what will a


student loan? They learnt a lot that is valuable. The food industry in


this country employs over 2.5 million people and their great jobs


available in marketing around the food industry. That is something I


want to bring to you in on, we heard from Lord Willetts that with the


pressure now in the job market, young people have to and get these


degrees or they are really handicapping themselves. You are at


the coal face of that, would you agree? I would encourage a lot of


people to go to university but it is about options. National union of


students represents over 7 million students. Across higher education


and further education. Further education are in the majority and I


think many people within NUS would agree they are not often seen on a


par with higher education and it is really important young people come


out of school and they have options which are valued by society is


equal. Student struggling in some cases to pay these fees and these


loans, are you going to give me a figure that is egregious? Should


vice chancellors be making this sort of money? I am not going to get


drawn into this. Why will nobody give me this? It is quite difficult


for students to see these high figures at a time when they are


having to take on a lot of debt, at a time when the vice chancellors


have done little to prevent is going down this road. That issue needs to


be dealt with, but it is not the only issue and it will not solve the


current funding crisis in our education. Thank you and good luck


with your students, and good luck with getting the students into your


university. The German election


is a little over a month away. At this stage, it looks


like Angela Merkel is probably on course to win her fourth term


as Chancellor and for her CDU Party But it has been a turbulent few


years for Mrs Merkel. Her decision to open the borders


in 2015 saw more than a million refugees enter Germany,


putting her under pressure and sparking a debate on how


to handle the crisis. In the background, a new threat


for the centre-right CDU has emerged from the populist right Alternative


for Germany Party. Formed in 2013, support


for its hardline, anti-immigration messages allowed it to win seats


at local elections at the height Recent infighting and a row


over how to remember the Nazis has pushed it back,


but a poll this week suggested the AfD might win as much as 10%


of the vote in September - enough to make it the third biggest


party in parliament. Gabriel Gatehouse has been


in Hamburg to ask what's This isn't the kind of place you'd


expect a political crime mystery. But there have been sinister


goings-on in this little village, population 800-odd, about an hour's


drive north of Hamburg. Last September, the Mayor called


a meeting of the local council. He suggested they house a refugee


family in the village. So, everyone was inside the village


hall for this meeting, including some police officers,


because the Mayor had already Now, he popped out to get his laptop


from his car, which was parked round the corner here,


and that's where the attacker The Mayor was struck from behind


with a blunt object. He later recovered, but couldn't


identify the assailant. The residents of


Oersdorf are on edge. Beyond Oersdorf, the towns


of Schleswig-Holstein are home to a relatively small number


of refugees, compared Chancellor Merkel has backed away


from her open-door policy. But the effects of that summer


are still felt today. The biggest political winner has


been Alternative For Germany, or AfD, a right-wing party founded


only four years ago that could become the third-largest


in the Bundestag. They invited us to one


of their events, with their deputy leader,


Beatrix von Storch. Frau von Storch is descended


from European aristocracy and, if enough British Royals suddenly


dropped dead, could conceivably move But behind the sausages


and the joviality, their posters tell a different story,


with barely concealed nationalistic references to German


ethnicity and homeland. This may look pretty tame,


but it's hard to overstate how radical it feels in the German


context to have these kinds of placards -


the words Deutschland, Heimat, homeland -


at a political rally. Germany's always footing


the bill, they say. But most of all, they talk


about Islam and immigration. When did you start getting


interested in this party? Oh, it was when Mrs Merkel


opened the borders. She thinks she's the Queen


of Germany, or what. Beatrix von Storch has, in the past,


suggested using armed force against child migrants


at Germany's borders. I put it to her that her party's


posters were dog whistles Er, we are saying Islam does


not belong to Germany, which is a historical fact,


and we're making very clear we don't want to move towards a society


which is more and more I don't think you can call


that the way you just called it. You have got to posters, one says


our homeland, the other says new Germans, we will make them


ourselves, a very obviously pregnant white woman. How is that not hinting


at a much darker slogan from a previous era, which was blood and


soil? I mean, it's very normal


what we're saying. And I'm just saying we don't


want to have the reproduction of our country done only by others,


or by migration, And can you understand why, given


generally's history, some people are worried about that?


Because you can't ask us to not be linked to our country.


Or to ask us to - you have to give up your sovereignty,


you have to take in migration, millions and even more millions


to come because of your history, you have to give up your culture.


Any kind of win for the AfD would be unprecedented for Germany,


the first time since the end of the Nazi era that an overtly


nationalist party has a presence in the German Parliament.


Those who support the AfD are not necessarily those who are,


um, socially deprived, but those who are anxious


The idea that voters, that they have no influence


in politics and that they cannot trust the political establishment


in Germany, and that the AfD - as the name suggests -


The day after the rally, we went to see Jutta Brendel -


at her home in a commuters' suburb of Hamburg.


She and her husband once voted for the centre-left.


Now they say all the mainstream parties are the same.


But she admits her support for the right-wing AfD is not


without its qualms about the darkest chapter in German history -


There are still, still people in Germany,


they have brown suits in the cellar. Sure.


If you are acknowledged that there are people in the AFP, maybe not all


but some, who want to pull Germany back in this Nazi direction, doesn't


that make you feel very uncomfortable?


But, you see, um, I have no other chance in this


Not all Germans are fearful of refugees and migrants.


The AfD knows it'll not end up in government,


no matter what happens in the election, but with seats


in Parliament, it will be in a strong position


to shift the German political mainstream to the right.


It was the 70th anniversary of Partition earlier this week.


You may have noticed - the BBC produced a lot of output


about the events which preceded and followed the decision in 1947


to split British India into the separate nations


Newsnight dedicated its entire programme to the subject on Tuesday,


but since then, some have questioned whether too much emphasis


has been put on the negative aspects of empire.


Writing in the Daily Mail today, the columnist Stephen Glover


accused Newsnight of indulging in an "orgy of self-flaggelation"


and of failing to reflect the good that British rule did.


So is our memory of history clouded by an over-eagerness


that some believe came with the rough?


And also back with us is Professor Joya Chatterji,


one of the historians from our panel on Tuesday.


Stephen, thank you for coming in. Why would have you been so upset


with how the Empire has been portrayed not just here about Don


Mike Butt across the spectrum? It is British India we are talking about,


and again and again it is suggested that the British were primarily, if


not exclusively responsible for the millions odd people who died after


Partition, when in fact the British are tried. Years to broker a deal


between the Muslim league and the Hindu dominated Congress. And the


head of the Muslim league did not want to come to an agreement. The


major politicians did not want Partition to happen, and the British


were left on the sidelines. You don't believe it was a nation that


was in any way subjugated, then? It had been subjugated. In quite brutal


fashion. The Buccaneers who started it would not have been recognised by


the rather high-minded incorruptible officials who put it to bed. So when


you talk about the Empire, you talk about a huge, diverse enterprise


involving many people, but in the end I don't think in the instead


feel subjugated, no. Another thing to remember is that only about


100,000 British officials and soldiers were present in the country


of well over 300 million people, and many Indians never saw a white face.


Professor, any thing positive about the British in India? I don't want


to reduce it into that kind positive or negative, railways and cricket


against subjugation, it is more complex than that. I take on board


the point is that Stephen Glover has made, that there wasn't necessarily


always and intent on the part of Britons to do evil things to


Indians. That there was a great deal of Indian involvement in certain


ranks with the project of empire. Where does the blame live for the


deaths that happened after Partition, the hands of the British?


I think it is divided. The fact that there was an ignominious scuttle for


which not adequate preparation was made has to be recognised and is


widely recognised by historians. You did write that in your article, the


Viceroy raised through it too quickly. Yes, he arrived in India in


March, and it was independent four or five months later. It did happen


too quickly. There was tremendous pressure from the Congress party,


they wanted to get on with it. But there is no question the British


were moving too quickly. Coming back to you, professor, is


there too much ignorance about the role of the British in India? Too


much like of knowledge among British schoolchildren? Absolutely. I think


that is part of the reason why we are having this sort of debate, in


which we are actually having a pro versus con Empire debate. We need to


have a better understanding in which young British people can face up to


what this is Terry was... Can they be proud of the Empire? I would not


say that, no. I have kind of got to do that point! Stephen? There are


lots of positives, and negatives as well, but as I said in that piece,


George Orwell, who was no friend of the empire at all, noted in the


1930s that if you look at a map of Asia, most of the railways were in


India, and when we left, the British left, there were about 40,000 miles


of railways, there was a democratic apparatus, a free and robust


press... You are shaking your head. And quite a robust economy, India


was a major economy. Cluttering your eyes, Professor! First of all, those


railways were paid for by Indian taxpayers in their entirety, built


to serve British interests, and they were not useful for the... After


independence. They were not useful for the Indian economy, which was


subjugated to British interests, absolutely not, and the point is


that the idea that India was turned into this flourishing economy could


not be further from the truth. From 1867, between 1867 and 1900, you


have 20 million deaths from famine. I must leave the words to you,


Stephen, do you feel proud of the British Empire and British India?


The British have some reason to feel pride for what they did, and I think


a lot of Indians recognised that, and India is on its way to being a


superpower. We should be happy about that too. No famines since


independence! But a lot of starvation. That is it for tonight.


But before we go, we've been marking the Proms season with some live


Tonight, it's the BBC Singers with conductor Sofi Jeannin


They'll be at the Royal Albert Hall on Sunday.


We're going to get some wet weather developing overnight and pushing


across northern parts of the UK, quite a wet start in Scotland, that


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