22/08/2017 Newsnight


22/08/2017

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines. With Kirsty Wark.


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Transcript


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Our troops will fight to win. We will fight to win.

:00:17.:00:23.

Fighting talk from President Trump over Afghanistan.

:00:24.:00:24.

But harsh words too for Pakistan, formally a US ally,

:00:25.:00:27.

for harbouring the Taliban and other terrorists.

:00:28.:00:28.

What does the Afghanistan announcement tell us about who holds

:00:29.:00:34.

We speak to the mercenary boss who had hoped for

:00:35.:00:43.

What does he make of the President's plan?

:00:44.:00:46.

More than 600 people are receiving NHS counselling

:00:47.:00:50.

We'll hear of the slow painful process towards

:00:51.:00:54.

My children did not know what fear was. She knows what fear is now. My

:00:55.:01:16.

child is priceless and their children are priceless. The

:01:17.:01:24.

government said HS three will happen.

:01:25.:01:27.

We'll ask the shadow chief secretary to the treasury

:01:28.:01:29.

if there's cross-party consensus for the scheme.

:01:30.:01:41.

That is now President Trump's battle cry for Afghanistan,

:01:42.:01:45.

a far cry from his pre-election determination that there

:01:46.:01:47.

should be an American withdrawal from the country.

:01:48.:01:51.

Now he has given The Pentagon authority to ramp up troop numbers,

:01:52.:01:54.

and greater autonomy to attack the Taliban.

:01:55.:02:03.

Also in his sights in his Fort Myer speech was Pakistan -

:02:04.:02:06.

with the president calling for Islamabad to stop providing safe

:02:07.:02:08.

Mr Trump said Pakistan had much to gain from partnering

:02:09.:02:11.

with the international effort in Afghanistan and much

:02:12.:02:13.

to lose from harbouring criminals and terrorists.

:02:14.:02:16.

Taking tough on Pakistan is not new, but taking meaningful action

:02:17.:02:18.

to prevent terrorism there has proven difficult.

:02:19.:02:20.

We'll assess what levers Trump has - and how he might make his ire felt.

:02:21.:02:34.

With General Kelly... Donald Trump has appointed more generals to his

:02:35.:02:43.

cabinet than any president since World War II. Perhaps it is

:02:44.:02:47.

unsurprising that after months of infighting he has bowed to the

:02:48.:02:54.

military stands on Afghanistan. Last night, in a dramatic reversal of his

:02:55.:03:02.

isolationist campaign rhetoric, Donald Trump committed the US to a

:03:03.:03:08.

deeper commitment in its longest ever war. We must ensure they have

:03:09.:03:13.

every weapon. Our troops will fight to win. We will fight to win.

:03:14.:03:21.

Currently there are 8000 American troops in the country. Donald Trump

:03:22.:03:30.

refused to discuss numbers but it is expected that they will send an

:03:31.:03:36.

extra 4000. Despite the big talk, this is a tiny proportion of the

:03:37.:03:42.

100,000 in the country at the height of Barack Obama's so-called surge in

:03:43.:03:49.

2009. The secretary of defence has described the Taliban itself as

:03:50.:03:55.

searching. This map shows the extent of their fightback with the

:03:56.:03:58.

government now in control of less than 60% of the country. Perhaps the

:03:59.:04:02.

most striking today were the president's strong words for

:04:03.:04:09.

Pakistan. The US government has long accused Islamabad of failing to do

:04:10.:04:16.

enough. Pakistan has much to gain from partnering with our effort in

:04:17.:04:21.

Afghanistan. It has much to lose eye continuing to harbour criminals and

:04:22.:04:31.

terrorists. He did not make a specific threat but it is thought

:04:32.:04:36.

they are going to increase drone strikes, withdrawing aid, or

:04:37.:04:41.

downgrading Pakistan's status as a major non-NATO ally. I'm not sure

:04:42.:04:46.

the pressure will result in Pakistan backing off, it could well double

:04:47.:04:50.

down on it. What he did add a new element which is rather explicit

:04:51.:04:56.

threat to engage India more heavily in Afghanistan. That will get

:04:57.:05:06.

Islamabad's attention. Figures suggest there have been 428 US drone

:05:07.:05:15.

strikes since 2004. At the peak there 128. That number has fallen to

:05:16.:05:28.

just four. Pakistan would not wish to see the strikes escalate, they

:05:29.:05:29.

view them as illegal. We'll discuss what this

:05:30.:05:32.

means for the Trump presidency in a moment -

:05:33.:05:34.

but first I am joined by Carlotta Gall, who for 12 years

:05:35.:05:37.

Afghanistan and Pakistan Her book 'The Wrong Enemy:

:05:38.:05:39.

America in Afghanistan', argues that America was fighting

:05:40.:05:42.

the wrong enemy in the wrong country and should have instead focused

:05:43.:05:45.

their efforts towards Pakistan. Also with us is Associate

:05:46.:05:51.

Professor Christine Fair from Georgetown University,

:05:52.:05:53.

who served as a political officer Good evening to you both. Is this

:05:54.:06:08.

the right message and the right threat to Pakistan? Undoubtedly. For

:06:09.:06:15.

the first time we've heard some really strong torque. He's talking

:06:16.:06:24.

about them changing. We've got to see what he follows through with.

:06:25.:06:34.

Trump has talked like this for a long time. What do you think should

:06:35.:06:43.

be the first lever on Pakistan? What would hurt it? The first thing

:06:44.:06:51.

they've already done is conditionality of the huge amount of

:06:52.:06:54.

money that they give to Pakistan every year. You can condition that

:06:55.:06:58.

on performance and they've already started that. The secretary of

:06:59.:07:07.

defence held up 50 million not long ago. Then there are drone strikes,

:07:08.:07:22.

like the strike before. Essentially president Trump is building on

:07:23.:07:32.

Barack Obama's attitudes but do you agree it will have more traction

:07:33.:07:39.

this time? We are in complete agreement. I was excited to see her

:07:40.:07:46.

on this segment. We have been consistently saying the real enemy

:07:47.:07:55.

is Pakistan. I would go further. The biggest programme is the coalition

:07:56.:07:59.

support fund. This is where Pakistan gets $1 billion a year to do it as

:08:00.:08:06.

sovereign countries are supposed to do. I think we should get rid of

:08:07.:08:11.

that programme altogether. Paying Pakistan to do what countries are

:08:12.:08:16.

supposed to do actually does violence to that commitment. We

:08:17.:08:22.

should completely re-examine our foreign, military assistance,

:08:23.:08:29.

provide them no access to platforms like F-16s that allow it to continue

:08:30.:08:32.

aggression towards India. We should be willing to provide platforms.

:08:33.:08:43.

Providing them with F-16s is simply preposterous. You cut her off when

:08:44.:08:48.

she was making a really important point that we have made repeatedly,

:08:49.:08:53.

that we need to think about smart sanctions. Not only Visa denials but

:08:54.:09:02.

going after civilians, intelligence operatives, with whom we have

:09:03.:09:10.

reliable information. We are in complete agreement that the way

:09:11.:09:16.

forward is not just denying aid. We need to develop the fortitude to

:09:17.:09:24.

develop sanctions. This is going to quickly run us into the very real

:09:25.:09:29.

concern that every policymaker in Washington raises and that is the

:09:30.:09:32.

nuclear arsenal. They used to blackmail us. Coming back to you, as

:09:33.:09:39.

Trump indicated enough that he would be prepared to lose the special

:09:40.:09:48.

relationship he's got with Pakistan? Should he have gone further? He made

:09:49.:09:56.

the point that the special relationship may be there but they

:09:57.:10:02.

are killing our soldiers. He drew a line that we are amazed that America

:10:03.:10:10.

has not done. What is there to lose? A nuclear strike? He is standing up

:10:11.:10:14.

to that. I think he will call their bluff. He is leaving it to his

:10:15.:10:21.

general to decide where and when. If the signal that you're going to send

:10:22.:10:27.

fewer than 5000 more troops really going to scare the Taliban back from

:10:28.:10:32.

the areas they've been taking recently? That is not the point.

:10:33.:10:41.

They will be doing training and assisting, holding the line. The

:10:42.:10:45.

Taliban are attacking provincial capitals every month and the

:10:46.:10:48.

Americans need to go and help the Afghanistan forces. That is what

:10:49.:11:00.

they are doing. Would be unacceptable to the American people

:11:01.:11:08.

to commit more troops to Afghanistan? Is that out the

:11:09.:11:13.

question? I don't think it is out of the question. To his credit, he laid

:11:14.:11:21.

out wide the Americans need to continue caring about Afghanistan.

:11:22.:11:28.

If there is continued leadership in explaining that Afghanistan and

:11:29.:11:34.

Pakistan is the epicentre of some of the most pressing American national

:11:35.:11:38.

security concerns, Americans will go along with it. There will be

:11:39.:11:43.

bipartisan support. This may be one of the issues where we see

:11:44.:11:48.

bipartisanship. Particularly the idea of bringing in India as a more

:11:49.:11:49.

forceful partner. Back in Washington, some

:11:50.:12:02.

were wondering today what President Trump's foreign

:12:03.:12:04.

policy U-turn might say Last week Mr Trump's

:12:05.:12:06.

former aide Steve Bannon - having been fired from

:12:07.:12:09.

the White House - told the readers of his right wing Breitbart news

:12:10.:12:12.

that the Trump presidency he had Today his website was

:12:13.:12:15.

suitably critical of on the subject is Erik Prince -

:12:16.:12:18.

the founder and former boss Until recently Mr Prince had hoped

:12:19.:12:25.

the president might agree to a plan to withdraw troops from Afghanistan

:12:26.:12:31.

and leave securing peace He says he was invited

:12:32.:12:34.

to the president's Camp David summit to draw up the plans -

:12:35.:12:39.

but following the change in personnel at the White House,

:12:40.:12:42.

the invitation was withdrawn. Mr Prince joins me

:12:43.:12:44.

now from Washington. Good evening to you. You have an

:12:45.:12:59.

history of running mercenary operations. What was the plan you

:13:00.:13:02.

were putting forward to the White House? Blackwater was not a

:13:03.:13:12.

mercenary organisation but we employed Americans serving abroad. I

:13:13.:13:20.

wrote an op-ed that said how we could end the war. I spoke about the

:13:21.:13:28.

need for a Viceroy. It was not to rule Afghanistan. It is to be one

:13:29.:13:36.

leader that would coordinate it. We had the Department of defence and

:13:37.:13:42.

the CAA in Pakistan and Afghanistan. There has been no unity of command.

:13:43.:13:50.

It has been very chaotic. That is why we have spent close to $1

:13:51.:13:55.

trillion in Afghanistan alone. This year, they will consume more than

:13:56.:14:00.

the UK defence budget just in Afghanistan. We are not winning. You

:14:01.:14:13.

concede that it is a loaded term. Was this going to be yourself?

:14:14.:14:24.

Absolutely not. It should be a senior US official, someone with

:14:25.:14:33.

business experience. We've been going round and round for 16 years.

:14:34.:14:41.

We are figuring out a way to tie this off. You might say president

:14:42.:14:50.

Trump, having listened to the generals around him, has shown a

:14:51.:14:56.

certain maturity today in actually doffing his to their views. Is that

:14:57.:15:00.

a mistake? The president campaigned against

:15:01.:15:10.

this notion and resisted it for the first seven months of his

:15:11.:15:15.

presidency. The Pentagon kept coming back to him with just only the

:15:16.:15:18.

option of more troops and more money as we have been doing for the past

:15:19.:15:23.

16 years and it has not worked. I do not think the policy will last long.

:15:24.:15:29.

Even the rules of engagement, the Taliban has had three open-air

:15:30.:15:32.

victory parades in the last three months. That does not require any

:15:33.:15:39.

more troops from the Pentagon, it requires coordination and speed and

:15:40.:15:42.

innovation from the Pentagon to get after them. The Pentagon has become

:15:43.:15:48.

so much of the bureaucracy it cannot operate at the speed of the Taliban.

:15:49.:15:56.

You are saying that the people employed out with the Pentagon and

:15:57.:16:02.

US military would be able to use different methods, such as the

:16:03.:16:08.

people you are engaged with do? Let me clarify, this needs to be a true

:16:09.:16:16.

Afghan solution. The Afghans continually resist a foreign

:16:17.:16:19.

occupation force which they've had for 16 years. My concept is to

:16:20.:16:27.

employ long-term contract is that would attach to each battalion, live

:16:28.:16:33.

and train with them, but with them and if necessary fight side-by-side

:16:34.:16:37.

with them. A few foreign professionals to provide structural

:16:38.:16:40.

support for each battalion combined with an air support and you have a

:16:41.:16:45.

very different and higher performing Afghan army. In the days after

:16:46.:16:52.

September 11 you 100 CIA officers and a devastated the Taliban. They

:16:53.:16:58.

can be defeated. You caught the attention of the president and a

:16:59.:17:02.

Steve Bannon and you're now close to Steve Bannon. He has said over the

:17:03.:17:05.

weekend that the Donald Trump presidency that he fought for is

:17:06.:17:13.

over. Do you agree? The president has a lot of different voices in his

:17:14.:17:19.

ears. I believe the President finally caved on this issue with

:17:20.:17:23.

going back to the same plan for the Pentagon really because of the

:17:24.:17:27.

fiasco in Charlottesville, he felt had not politically and he went with

:17:28.:17:32.

it. I do not think it is a decision he will stay with for long. He needs

:17:33.:17:35.

to find a way to do this because of the mid-term elections and the next

:17:36.:17:40.

election the people who voted for him by the people sending their sons

:17:41.:17:46.

and daughters. So you do not think he will stick with this plan for

:17:47.:17:50.

long, due think there is still hope for your plan? What I layout is

:17:51.:17:58.

basic soldiering. It is how the East India company operated. Not trying

:17:59.:18:07.

to develop a colonial force, this is an Afghan solution, professional

:18:08.:18:09.

soldiers attached to the Afghan army. By even the United Nations

:18:10.:18:14.

definition that does not make them mercenaries. Under Afghan rules of

:18:15.:18:20.

engagement and the code of military Justice, it is a much cheaper and

:18:21.:18:26.

much smaller footprint way and proven to be effective over the

:18:27.:18:32.

centuries. To stand on its own against these terrorist

:18:33.:18:35.

organisations resident in Afghanistan. Thank you for joining

:18:36.:18:36.

us. It's little more than two months

:18:37.:18:36.

since the Grenfell disaster, and for many involved,

:18:37.:18:39.

residents, others in the neighbourhood who watched

:18:40.:18:41.

the horror unfold, volunteers, nurses, firefighters,

:18:42.:18:42.

the imprint of that traumatic day will always be with them,

:18:43.:18:44.

and hard to cope with. Only yesterday the head of

:18:45.:18:47.

the London Fire Brigade Dany Cotton revealed she is receiving

:18:48.:18:54.

counselling following the blaze. The

:18:55.:18:56.

NHS has knocked on two and a half thousand doors in Kensington

:18:57.:18:59.

and Chelsea to enquire about mental health and offer

:19:00.:19:01.

advice and counselling. So far six hundred people -

:19:02.:19:03.

one hundred of them children - have been referred for further

:19:04.:19:06.

treatment. The symptoms are many and varied,

:19:07.:19:08.

including guilt that they survived Our special correspondent

:19:09.:19:10.

Katie Razzall has gone back to Grenfell to see how

:19:11.:19:17.

people are coping. You just keep on getting

:19:18.:19:26.

flashbacks to, obviously, the fire and nightmares

:19:27.:19:28.

and sleep talking. This has been the biggest push

:19:29.:19:31.

on mental health in the UK there has ever been in response to one

:19:32.:19:39.

of these events. We had nowhere else

:19:40.:19:44.

to go but look at it. Theresa Griffin has lived

:19:45.:19:50.

beside Grenfell Tower We used to sunbathe on the top

:19:51.:19:59.

of it, years and years ago. They used to have no

:20:00.:20:06.

locks on it then. I was 16 and everyone

:20:07.:20:10.

used to go up there. Yes, that tree wasn't there,

:20:11.:20:13.

there wasn't so much, In this close-knit community it

:20:14.:20:18.

isn't just survivors of the fire Local residents like Theresa

:20:19.:20:28.

watched, powerless to I could see, there was two people

:20:29.:20:33.

there that stood out for me. There was a friend

:20:34.:20:41.

of mine, Tony Disson. And he was talking to

:20:42.:20:43.

people out the window. And there was a woman over

:20:44.:20:50.

in the corner and she just shouted She didn't care about herself,

:20:51.:20:58.

she just wanted her kids, I can't find any

:20:59.:21:02.

answers in my faith. The church doesn't give me any

:21:03.:21:09.

solace at all, which is the first time in my life that I've never got

:21:10.:21:12.

any answer from myself, for myself. In this vicinity there are whole

:21:13.:21:17.

families who are traumatised. While younger children can become

:21:18.:21:21.

withdrawn and fearful, older ones react to

:21:22.:21:23.

tragedy more like adults. I have to take my daughter

:21:24.:21:27.

to bed at night. I didn't have to do

:21:28.:21:29.

that when she was six. And this fear that she has

:21:30.:21:35.

of losing, you know, And a child shouldn't

:21:36.:21:37.

feel guilt like that. 14 years of age, you know,

:21:38.:21:43.

she wasn't in the fire, so she feels this terrible

:21:44.:21:45.

weight on her. She lost two really

:21:46.:21:47.

quite close friends. My daughter didn't know what fear

:21:48.:21:50.

was in the true sense of the word. And that you don't always

:21:51.:21:57.

go to bed and get up. And it's something that didn't need

:21:58.:22:04.

to happen, that's the killer, And it's down to a pound note,

:22:05.:22:07.

and that's heartbreaking. My child is priceless,

:22:08.:22:11.

and their children were priceless. Normally major incidents involve

:22:12.:22:25.

people from all over This is a situation where

:22:26.:22:27.

people are in one place. So you've got a big

:22:28.:22:33.

concentration of problems. But also people are networked

:22:34.:22:36.

together so you can both be traumatised yourself and also

:22:37.:22:40.

bereaved, lost friends, and so that makes for a very

:22:41.:22:43.

complicated situation that kind NHS mental health outreach workers

:22:44.:22:45.

have knocked on 2200 This is the UK's largest ever

:22:46.:22:53.

mental health response So far 600 people have been referred

:22:54.:23:00.

for further treatment This woman's flat

:23:01.:23:08.

faces Grenfell Tower. But at the beginning I wasn't

:23:09.:23:28.

able to sleep at all. I hadn't slept for three nights

:23:29.:23:34.

following the incident. Nightmares and sleeplessness

:23:35.:23:37.

are a normal reaction to a trauma. If they endure it can be a sign

:23:38.:23:40.

of psychological problems. Luckily for this woman,

:23:41.:23:44.

her insomnia disappeared. But others haven't

:23:45.:23:52.

been so fortunate. People come and they're

:23:53.:23:55.

having sleep problems. In children there is

:23:56.:23:58.

a lot of bedwetting. People have a heightened

:23:59.:24:01.

state of anxiety. They don't want to

:24:02.:24:05.

talk and communicate. And you can see both ends

:24:06.:24:07.

of the scale in one person You know, we have seen

:24:08.:24:10.

a range of emotions. If I had one wish it would be

:24:11.:24:15.

that people would be But I know that is

:24:16.:24:17.

proving very difficult. But that would be very helpful

:24:18.:24:21.

because one of the problems of you being traumatised

:24:22.:24:23.

is you don't feel safe. And trying to get that safety

:24:24.:24:26.

feeling back is very important. 155 of Grenfell Tower's households

:24:27.:24:32.

are still in emergency Like Paul who lived on the sixth

:24:33.:24:34.

floor of Grenfell and woke up in his smoke-filled flat

:24:35.:24:42.

to the sound of screaming. He has been in this hotel since

:24:43.:24:46.

the fire and says he can't be alone. Friends, NHS clinicians

:24:47.:24:50.

and even his favourite football club Arsenal have been offering

:24:51.:24:52.

support and counselling. It has not got any better

:24:53.:24:57.

at the moment, it has For me I feel it is getting

:24:58.:24:59.

a little bit worse. For me, maybe over time it might go

:25:00.:25:08.

down a bit more with the medication, the sleeping tablets and my friends

:25:09.:25:13.

being around me constantly. I think for me personally it was how

:25:14.:25:18.

I got out of the building, what I saw coming out

:25:19.:25:21.

of that building. The fact that eventually

:25:22.:25:24.

when I did get out, how lucky And I know quite a few people that

:25:25.:25:31.

have obviously lost their lives, people who were very,

:25:32.:25:37.

very close, I would see them Raymond Barnard, who

:25:38.:25:39.

was on the 23rd floor. He watched me grow up,

:25:40.:25:46.

held me when I was a little kid. And he was one of the first

:25:47.:25:49.

people I thought of, that I was praying that they've

:25:50.:25:52.

got out alive. But he was one of the first people

:25:53.:25:54.

to be confirmed dead. I go and see my mental health sort

:25:55.:25:57.

of nurse at least once or twice. But she calls me up

:25:58.:26:03.

on a day-to-day basis to check up And I have another mental

:26:04.:26:06.

health support worker. Paul has been offered a temporary

:26:07.:26:09.

flat, but he has been clear that he won't move in until the fire

:26:10.:26:12.

brigade has checked it, After Grenfell he doesn't trust

:26:13.:26:15.

the housing association's fire Even in this building here I have

:26:16.:26:19.

asked quite a few times what is the fire procedure

:26:20.:26:25.

for the building, for this sort And obviously the room I'm in now

:26:26.:26:28.

as well, which is good for me, I feel a bit more safe,

:26:29.:26:35.

is the fact that I'm literally one It's a little over two

:26:36.:26:38.

months since the fire. A very short time for a community

:26:39.:26:44.

to come to terms with All our community wants

:26:45.:26:47.

to do is get the answers It's not dwindling onto

:26:48.:26:53.

it or wanting to hold I just want to get over

:26:54.:26:59.

it and I want to feel, I want to wake up in the morning

:27:00.:27:05.

and like where I used to live. For now though, respite

:27:06.:27:09.

comes in small gestures. I go over every day,

:27:10.:27:12.

I light the candles at night time. At the place where

:27:13.:27:16.

all the tributes are? Yes, where all the tributes

:27:17.:27:18.

are and the flowers. I put fresh water in

:27:19.:27:21.

the flowers, trim back I just feel a little

:27:22.:27:23.

bit better at the end They haven't got

:27:24.:27:27.

their kids any more. And if you or anyone

:27:28.:27:53.

you know are affected by any of the issues raised in her film

:27:54.:27:58.

then there is a dedicated Grenfell So how long does it take to recover

:27:59.:28:01.

from something like this? Tony Thompson was a Superintendent

:28:02.:28:16.

with the British Transport Police and was one of the police officers

:28:17.:28:20.

who dealt with the Paddington Rail crash in October 1999 in which 31

:28:21.:28:23.

people died and more He is currently chair

:28:24.:28:26.

of the Emergency Planning Society, which advises government

:28:27.:28:41.

on disasters such as Grenfell, You were there on that dreadful day

:28:42.:28:53.

in 1999. When you hear the voices in that film about Grenfell Tower and

:28:54.:28:57.

the range of the trauma that people are suffering, doesn't resonate with

:28:58.:29:02.

you? Absolutely. We heard some people saying gradually coming to

:29:03.:29:08.

terms with it. It is a long process, that will go on for many months and

:29:09.:29:12.

years and different people will deal with it in different ways. Your

:29:13.:29:20.

involvement at the epicentre of that crash, he went to the carriages, you

:29:21.:29:25.

stayed for 11 days. Did that have a long-term effect on you?

:29:26.:29:32.

Unfortunately my experience of rail crashes goes back to the Clapham

:29:33.:29:39.

crash on the 12th of December, 1988, and I remember that as vividly as I

:29:40.:29:48.

do the Ladbroke Grove crash. You cope with it in different ways but

:29:49.:29:53.

it never goes away. Some will cope with it better than others but this

:29:54.:30:00.

is a long process. In your experience, how important is it for

:30:01.:30:03.

people to receive help as soon as possible? To have their mental state

:30:04.:30:08.

attended to as soon as possible rather than letting them beyond

:30:09.:30:14.

their own virtue long. -- for too long. The approach we take is, the

:30:15.:30:20.

first few weeks, we try to provide people with what we call practical

:30:21.:30:23.

and emotional support. By the time we get to 12 weeks, some people will

:30:24.:30:31.

make progress, others may need counselling in the true sense and

:30:32.:30:35.

clearly, the NHS and others are trying to identify people at risk.

:30:36.:30:39.

It is quite normal in the first days and weeks to suffer from nightmares,

:30:40.:30:44.

flashbacks, you've got that awful shell of a tower as a stark

:30:45.:30:51.

reminder. I've been in the area a number of times and wherever you

:30:52.:30:56.

look it is there. A lot of other disasters. Normally we remove the

:30:57.:31:06.

wreckage. With Grenfell it will be there quite some time before it is

:31:07.:31:10.

ultimately removed. Do you think there is a difference between people

:31:11.:31:15.

having individual tragedies, the experience of their own, and

:31:16.:31:24.

tragedies like Paddington, Grenfell. Is it a different way of dealing

:31:25.:31:31.

with things? You have people about you. Does that reinforce it? What is

:31:32.:31:44.

the difference in approach? Well, absolutely. If you are suffering on

:31:45.:31:52.

your own, death is a death. If you're part of a wider tragedy, you

:31:53.:31:59.

can share your concerns, if it is your own personal tragedy, you share

:32:00.:32:07.

it with your immediate family. There are advantages and disadvantages to

:32:08.:32:15.

both. I lost a close person through murder. I know what it is like. It

:32:16.:32:20.

does not go away. You learn to cope with it better in small moments. I

:32:21.:32:28.

wondered if you could tell me, because of your experience, what

:32:29.:32:35.

message do you have? For a lot of people it will get better over time.

:32:36.:32:42.

You will never forget the people who lost their lives. Slowly, slowly, it

:32:43.:32:51.

may be help from friends. Gradually, it should get better. It will be

:32:52.:32:58.

more challenging for some people. I'm talking about it getting better

:32:59.:33:09.

for years. The key is to talk. Thank you so much.

:33:10.:33:14.

Ahead of a Northern Powerhouse summit in Leeds tomorrow,

:33:15.:33:16.

George Osborne, in a mischievous flourish, ended his opinion piece

:33:17.:33:18.

in today's FT by saying that Theresa May could "relaunch her

:33:19.:33:21.

premiership" this autumn by backing Northern Powerhouse Rail

:33:22.:33:23.

which would plug the Northern cities into HS2, making it

:33:24.:33:27.

The government responded by saying that they would go ahead with it.

:33:28.:33:47.

How does Labour respond? Does Labour back the idea of a track which goes

:33:48.:34:02.

from Liverpool- Hull? We do. It is part of decentralisation. For too

:34:03.:34:19.

long we've had a need to chill out. You're giving no help to a lot of

:34:20.:34:27.

the smaller communities. They want help for retraining. That is much

:34:28.:34:41.

more valuable. That assumes that they are mutually exclusive. There's

:34:42.:34:49.

no reason why you cannot do both. It could boost the Northern economy. It

:34:50.:35:07.

has a knock-on effect. We've set aside ?25 billion for investment.

:35:08.:35:13.

These things cannot be taken as individual items. You've got ?25

:35:14.:35:25.

billion for education plans. What about the electrification of the

:35:26.:35:33.

Transpennine Express to mark the interesting thing, the government

:35:34.:35:39.

pulling away from that upset the apple cart. There needs to be a

:35:40.:35:53.

proactive plan for investment in the infrastructure. This is no use.

:35:54.:36:01.

Especially when it is direct from London. London and the government

:36:02.:36:06.

have got to chill out in regard to this control over everything that

:36:07.:36:12.

goes on. This is the way forward and that is what the leaders meeting in

:36:13.:36:16.

Leeds will be sending a message about. There is no point in doing

:36:17.:36:30.

this unless there are Spurs which will bring people in Newcastle into

:36:31.:36:37.

economic regeneration and that won't help them. Of course but this is a

:36:38.:36:43.

progressive process. Across the area from Liverpool- Hull, you're talking

:36:44.:36:54.

about 10 million people across that corridor, not taking into account

:36:55.:37:03.

Cheshire, Lancashire. It is the opportunity for them all to share in

:37:04.:37:14.

the prosperity. You are happy to subscribe to something that will be

:37:15.:37:18.

seen as a Tory success? It's not a question of being a Tory success. It

:37:19.:37:23.

has been on the cards for years and I will not start getting partisan if

:37:24.:37:27.

this will be beneficial for communities across the North, bring

:37:28.:37:28.

it on. Thank you. Literary festivals occasionally -

:37:29.:37:32.

almost inadvertently - And that's exactly what

:37:33.:37:33.

happened at Edinburgh when the Booker Prize winning writer

:37:34.:37:36.

Zadie Smith revealed that she limits the time her seven year old daughter

:37:37.:37:39.

can spend in front of the mirror each day to 15 minutes,

:37:40.:37:42.

after explaining to her that she was Whether she was actually applying

:37:43.:37:47.

make up the whole time Zadie Smith didn't make clear, but she alluded

:37:48.:37:50.

to the huge YouTube industry even for pre-teens, with demonstrations

:37:51.:37:53.

of how to contour and apply strobe An endeavour that, she said,

:37:54.:37:55.

can take an hour and a half. So does make-up imprison young women

:37:56.:37:59.

or can it empower them? Claire Coleman is a journalist

:38:00.:38:02.

and make-up brand consultant. Madeleine Spencer is beauty editor

:38:03.:38:06.

of InBeauty magazine. Good evening to you both. Let's deal

:38:07.:38:23.

first of all the children. The idea. I watched these YouTube videos of

:38:24.:38:28.

four -year-olds doing contouring. Where does this come from? It comes

:38:29.:38:36.

from the way that from a younger and younger age children are exposed to

:38:37.:38:40.

much more of these influences that show them their idols. It seems to

:38:41.:38:52.

be a natural progression. I don't think they need to know how to

:38:53.:39:01.

contour. They don't need to know but the application of make-up can be

:39:02.:39:07.

done, and I wanted to know exactly how Kylie Minogue did her make up. I

:39:08.:39:15.

think it is absurd but the idea of wanting to emulate something is

:39:16.:39:22.

totally ingrained. But the idea that unless you do this it will not be

:39:23.:39:27.

acceptable, a lot of seven-year-olds actually do not have a complete

:39:28.:39:33.

sense of their own physicality, they don't need it to know how pretty

:39:34.:39:41.

they could be! It is up to the parents. I don't think limiting that

:39:42.:39:46.

time does that. But they need to say you have plenty of other attributes

:39:47.:39:54.

other than the way that you look. It worries me. We need to take a stand

:39:55.:39:58.

on this sort of thing. We're going to have so much time where we worry

:39:59.:40:02.

about how we look and concern ourselves. We are looking at

:40:03.:40:07.

worrying about how people perceive us. To concern ourselves, it is

:40:08.:40:26.

absolutely wrong. Essentially, if somebody wants to spend an hour and

:40:27.:40:30.

a half in front of the mirror, it doesn't mean they are stupid, it

:40:31.:40:35.

just means that aspect of their life is important to them. Absolutely

:40:36.:40:45.

not. The idea that we have this at one end of the spectrum is something

:40:46.:40:51.

we need to get over. As a feminist I'm never going to dictate to any

:40:52.:40:54.

woman how we should be spending our time. What we are talking about is a

:40:55.:41:05.

wider societal issue where women are judged if they are not making an

:41:06.:41:13.

effort. Men have a similar pressure. It is worse for women because they

:41:14.:41:20.

have pressured to look a certain way. But the idea that looking a

:41:21.:41:26.

certain way is just for women I don't think is true. There's an

:41:27.:41:32.

expectation to look certain way. It is across the board. As a society

:41:33.:41:39.

what do we expect of people? Are we too concerned with how we look? It

:41:40.:41:50.

is motivation. For somebody who enjoys make up, that is as much

:41:51.:42:02.

pleasure as painting canvas. I agree that the ritual of make-up is

:42:03.:42:06.

important to them but I rail against the idea that men and women are

:42:07.:42:10.

judged on the same way. Women are judged much more harshly. Thank you

:42:11.:42:11.

so much. That is it for tonight. Before we go, we've been

:42:12.:42:15.

marking Proms season Tonight we have trumpeter

:42:16.:42:17.

Christian Scott, with his take on the track Celia by jazz legend

:42:18.:42:20.

Charles Mingus. Good evening. A weather front will

:42:21.:44:10.

bring heavy rain through the night across Scotland and still be

:44:11.:44:12.

lingering first thing tomorrow

:44:13.:44:13.