24/08/2017 Newsnight


24/08/2017

With Emma Barnett. What do the new migration statistics mean for Theresa May? Plus a look at how well the customs border works between Norway and Sweden and the new GCSE system.


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Transcript


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For years the Government believed many international students

:00:07.:00:07.

Today we find out almost none of them do.

:00:08.:00:13.

So what credibility should we give the migration statistics?

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This new data undermines a lot of what we thought

:00:19.:00:20.

we knew about how many people come to live here.

:00:21.:00:25.

The hottest topic in British politics

:00:26.:00:31.

turns out to be the area in which we've been worst informed.

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We'll ask a leading Brexiteer and a prominent Remainer,

:00:35.:00:36.

if Government policy has long been based on dodgy data.

:00:37.:00:38.

We've been to the border between Norway and Sweden.

:00:39.:00:43.

Ministers here think it's a model for a future frictionless border

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between Northern Ireland and the Republic.

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What you think about the customs here? I think it is completely clap,

:00:48.:01:01.

it takes a long time, it is not easy. -- pony.

:01:02.:01:14.

Hundreds of thousands of teenagers opened their GCSE

:01:15.:01:16.

Do you know what a Grade 4 in maths actually means?

:01:17.:01:19.

And what's the difference between a "good pass"

:01:20.:01:23.

We'll debate the merits of the new marking system.

:01:24.:01:26.

And, shameless cash grab, or the greatest

:01:27.:01:28.

UFC Champion Conor McGregor, and undefeated boxer

:01:29.:01:30.

On the surface today's immigration figures look

:01:31.:01:34.

Net migration has fallen to the lowest level for three years

:01:35.:01:38.

after a surge in the number of EU nationals leaving the UK

:01:39.:01:41.

Net migration, the difference between those entering

:01:42.:01:44.

fell 81,000 to 246,000 in the year to March 2017.

:01:45.:01:47.

from hitting her target to reduce net migration

:01:48.:01:54.

But the figures also reveal that the problem of non EU migrants

:01:55.:01:58.

overstaying their visas is simply not as big an issue

:01:59.:02:01.

Far, far fewer international students end up overstaying

:02:02.:02:08.

their visas than the Home Office has always claimed.

:02:09.:02:13.

Here's our Policy Editor, Chris Cook.

:02:14.:02:26.

VOICEOVER: As Home Secretary, Theresa May picked a fight with

:02:27.:02:34.

universities, in her determination to get net migration down to under

:02:35.:02:38.

100,000 a year, students from outside the EU were a prime target.

:02:39.:02:42.

We welcome students coming to study, but the fact is, too many of them

:02:43.:02:48.

are not returning home as soon as their visa runs out. If they have a

:02:49.:02:53.

graduate job, that is fine, if not, they must return home. So I don't

:02:54.:03:00.

care what university lobbyists say, the rules must be enforced.

:03:01.:03:07.

Students, yes, overstays, no. Overstay as were a critical issue to

:03:08.:03:12.

her, how many of them were there? In migration, the most important data

:03:13.:03:15.

source is the International passenger survey, how we monitor net

:03:16.:03:20.

migration targets. It stations people at ports and airports with

:03:21.:03:24.

clipboard, asking travellers about their duration of stay in Britain

:03:25.:03:27.

and why they came. It is the source of estimates in migration into the

:03:28.:03:33.

country and emigration out of date. When Theresa May gave her speech,

:03:34.:03:36.

the latest figures showed an hundred and 31,009 EU students arriving, but

:03:37.:03:43.

only 38,000 leaving. A gap of 93,000 people. Lots of whom might be

:03:44.:03:50.

overstayers. There was a waiting reason to doubt these numbers, they

:03:51.:03:54.

did not match the sources of data we have, for example, the immigration

:03:55.:03:58.

accords universities have two hold about former students. -- records.

:03:59.:04:03.

These former students also were not showing up in the national Insurance

:04:04.:04:07.

database. -- have to. And they did not show up in surveys like the

:04:08.:04:10.

labour Force survey, where were they? Now we have quite a good

:04:11.:04:15.

answer, new border checks data suggests the international passenger

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survey is simply not very good. The reliability of the international

:04:20.:04:22.

passenger survey depends upon whether people and set accurately to

:04:23.:04:27.

questions on why are you coming here and do you intend to stay for longer

:04:28.:04:31.

than one-year? For many people, especially students, the answers may

:04:32.:04:35.

not be correct, or indeed, may not be known to the person at the time

:04:36.:04:39.

they are asked the question. The new data shows up how bad IPS has been,

:04:40.:04:49.

we know that 181,000 student Visas expired, and 176,000 were known to

:04:50.:04:51.

have left. The number of overstayers, at most, 4600, 2.6%. A

:04:52.:04:59.

review of student migration has now been commissioned from the

:05:00.:05:01.

Independent migration advisory committee. Clearly, the IPS has been

:05:02.:05:07.

considered as the best possible tool that we have got for determining

:05:08.:05:13.

this. I have argued for a long time, indeed before the migration advisory

:05:14.:05:16.

committee was established, that we needed something that was

:05:17.:05:21.

independent of government, that was verifiable in terms of the

:05:22.:05:27.

evidential base. There was more to the students squeeze than

:05:28.:05:30.

overstaying, she wanted fewer students staying on legitimately,

:05:31.:05:35.

too, but overstayers got outsized importance and so this data matters

:05:36.:05:43.

politically. Today's announcements tell us that government has really

:05:44.:05:45.

listened to the university sector, we very strongly welcome the way in

:05:46.:05:50.

which they are now trying to provide an evidence -based account of the

:05:51.:05:52.

role of international students, and we think what that will allow us to

:05:53.:05:59.

do is create a policy in cooperation with government, especially

:06:00.:06:02.

important after Brexit. Some people have suggested the right response to

:06:03.:06:05.

the student migration data problem is to remove students from the

:06:06.:06:09.

migration target, that does not really make sense. This student data

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problem, illustrates that one of two things is write about the remaining

:06:16.:06:19.

international passenger survey: if it is making catastrophic errors

:06:20.:06:23.

about the total number of immigration into Britain or there

:06:24.:06:26.

are other huge offsetting errors in other parts of the survey. The

:06:27.:06:31.

passenger survey makes for a pretty lousy migration measure, it should

:06:32.:06:36.

be replaced, the key question today, why the Home Office and Theresa May

:06:37.:06:39.

put so much weight on it for so long.

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So, if entire chunks of government policy have been crafted around

:06:46.:06:50.

migration figures which are simply inaccurate, as they appear to be,

:06:51.:06:52.

what are the wider ramifications for immigration targets and Brexit?

:06:53.:06:55.

And why has the Home Office, as overseen by Theresa May for 6

:06:56.:06:58.

years, used data that may have painted a misleading picture?

:06:59.:07:00.

Joining me now is the Labour MP and spokesperson for Open Britain

:07:01.:07:03.

that is campaigning against a so called hard-Brexit,

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and the Tory MP and prominent Leaver,

:07:06.:07:13.

Good evening, both of you, Peter, you are in a good mood... I will try

:07:14.:07:25.

not to... I will use facts, if I may, we will come to the bigger

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picture in a moment, as the film showed, the problem of non-EU

:07:30.:07:33.

migrants overstaying in the UK seems to have been widely overstated. What

:07:34.:07:40.

I want to understand is, how are we in a position where the Home Office

:07:41.:07:41.

has been using bogus data? I don't think you can say that,

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there is an enquiry to... They have called an enquiry, the fact that

:07:51.:07:53.

they have done that would point to a problem. It is good to look at it

:07:54.:07:57.

but today's... There must be a problem. We shall see if there is a

:07:58.:08:01.

problem, don't upset me, now(!)... The real point today about the

:08:02.:08:05.

figures is we have seen a huge drop in net migration by 80,000, lowest

:08:06.:08:11.

for three years. Still a lot... I'm going to come to that point, I made

:08:12.:08:16.

that clear, could you address my question, we are aware of the fact

:08:17.:08:19.

there will be an enquiry, you have said that, is it not concerning

:08:20.:08:24.

two-year and to the rest of the UK, that there has been misleading data

:08:25.:08:26.

that has been coming through the Home Office, a big part of Theresa

:08:27.:08:30.

May's standing up and talking to people about these figures has been,

:08:31.:08:34.

that there is an issue, especially with students, they were used

:08:35.:08:38.

regularly, overstaying Visas, we now know it is tiny, the figure is tiny.

:08:39.:08:44.

I don't know where you are saying everyone is talking about students,

:08:45.:08:48.

my constituents were not talking about students... Your leader was.

:08:49.:08:54.

The issue in the country, however much the BBC wants to move away from

:08:55.:08:59.

this, it is a good news story... You don't seem to be able to answer my

:09:00.:09:04.

question, are you not concerned... I have never been concerned about

:09:05.:09:07.

students coming to this country, I cannot be concerned about things

:09:08.:09:10.

that I have never been concerned about. Your leader has been, let me

:09:11.:09:14.

put a different question to you, Home Secretary for six years, good

:09:15.:09:19.

reputation in that job, and... You does. That is not my own opinion,

:09:20.:09:26.

I'm... I'm not here to have views, you are here to answer questions,

:09:27.:09:30.

and I'm trying to ask these questions... These figures,

:09:31.:09:33.

imposition of review, do they not show that Theresa May, looking --

:09:34.:09:45.

she has been looked at in a damaging light, "strong and stable" Home

:09:46.:09:47.

Secretary. I don't know where you got the idea that there was a big

:09:48.:09:51.

issue about student numbers, it was not there in the country, I have

:09:52.:09:55.

been relaxed about it, it is right they are included in the figures

:09:56.:09:58.

because that is how... A figure that has now been shown to be

:09:59.:10:02.

misleading... Which figure has been misleading? Which particular figure?

:10:03.:10:10.

Tell me which particular figure. I will tell you... Because, your

:10:11.:10:13.

party, your government, and some of the press that support you have been

:10:14.:10:16.

saying for many years that about 100,000 people were unwelcome,

:10:17.:10:21.

overstaying, should not be here, and a problem. That has been exposed as

:10:22.:10:26.

an utter falsity, as has much of the campaign that you and others were

:10:27.:10:30.

part of to leave the European Union, you should be ashamed and very

:10:31.:10:33.

worried that Theresa May was so closely associated to something that

:10:34.:10:36.

has been proven to be utter rubbish. -- falsehood. That is the point,

:10:37.:10:43.

what you say? I never campaigned in a disgraceful way about student

:10:44.:10:45.

numbers because I have been very relaxed about the student situation,

:10:46.:10:49.

what the problem has been is free movement from the European Union,

:10:50.:10:53.

that has been the issue and today we have seen in courage in signs about

:10:54.:10:57.

a number Rafael in the number of people. You don't want to address

:10:58.:11:01.

that fact but I will bring kneel onto it, Peter Bone is in a

:11:02.:11:04.

celebratory mood, the majority of the country voted to leave the

:11:05.:11:07.

European Union, these figures would say that this is the right direction

:11:08.:11:11.

of travel, surely you see today as a bit of a Democratic victory for

:11:12.:11:17.

those people? I'm not sure what the celebration is for, what Brexit is

:11:18.:11:18.

showing us... Macro Brexodus. Yes, Brexodus, it is

:11:19.:11:30.

damaging, making a contribution to the country, they are leaving...

:11:31.:11:35.

Making a contribution... I want our economy to be the best in the world,

:11:36.:11:40.

more people to contribute to... And I want them to be confident that

:11:41.:11:43.

they can come here. Where British people can be trained and fill

:11:44.:11:49.

roles, absolutely support that. But the simple truth is, in the

:11:50.:11:52.

construction sector, in the leisure sector, in the food and farming

:11:53.:11:56.

sector, there are massive vacancies. Did you or did you not to eat today,

:11:57.:12:03.

kneel, that anti-"Brexit" campaigners are the real patriots...

:12:04.:12:15.

-- tweet. It is not patriotic for them to take jobs away from people

:12:16.:12:19.

there is a finite amount of jobs. You assume that they are taking jobs

:12:20.:12:22.

away from people, I disagree, look at the food and drink Federation

:12:23.:12:26.

report, it shows that one third of their members are worried about

:12:27.:12:29.

having to close as a result of not having British workers to fill...

:12:30.:12:34.

Why don't they pay better, maybe they will get British workers,

:12:35.:12:38.

market forces. The reason I made this Twitter post about being a

:12:39.:12:42.

patriot, I am proud that people want to come to this country to live,

:12:43.:12:46.

study, work, contribute, I'm proud of the contribution they have made

:12:47.:12:50.

to the constituency. I'm very worried about the people leaving and

:12:51.:12:54.

the message they are sending. Because that is the other side of

:12:55.:12:57.

this, to think these are people leaving jobs that will be filled by

:12:58.:13:01.

British people is a mistake, some of them take jobs that will not be

:13:02.:13:05.

replaced. You cannot prove that, that is your take on it. Making

:13:06.:13:17.

Brexodus happen, you are an unpatriotic man. He's entitled to

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his opinion, I have been called a lot of things by the extreme left,

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just another one today... Extreme left, if he is the extreme left,

:13:27.:13:34.

what are you? I'm the centre ground. Great democratic debate, the EU

:13:35.:13:37.

referendum, it was wonderful, and the result at the end was to say

:13:38.:13:41.

that would come out of the UN we want to see immigration reduced.

:13:42.:13:44.

That is what is beginning to happen. We asked LA long way off. You got to

:13:45.:13:49.

the figures in the end, even if you ended up not answering my question.

:13:50.:13:54.

Gentlemen, thank you very much for joining us.

:13:55.:13:59.

One of the most acute challenges of Brexit

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specifically regarding our large land border with the EU in Ireland.

:14:02.:14:06.

There's already been much hand wringing from politicians about how

:14:07.:14:08.

to solve that particular problem and there's plenty more to come

:14:09.:14:11.

Well, one solution that has been floated by the Brexit

:14:12.:14:14.

Secretary David Davis is to mimic the border

:14:15.:14:16.

situation between the EU's Sweden, and Norway,

:14:17.:14:18.

But is it really the holy gail of a frictionless 'soft' border?

:14:19.:14:22.

And a warning, there is some strong language

:14:23.:14:25.

Stretching across 1,000 miles, the border between Sweden and Norway is

:14:26.:14:43.

the largest frontier of the EU and this bridge is by far the busiest

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crossing. It's said to be the most technologically advanced border in

:14:53.:14:57.

the world and is a model for the frictionless customs border between

:14:58.:15:00.

northern and southern Ireland that politicians so desperately want. An

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example of how that might be done, the committee will look at the

:15:05.:15:08.

Norway Sweden border where you have, they're both in the sing Market but

:15:09.:15:14.

they straddle the customs union. It's a very open border. How

:15:15.:15:18.

frictionless is it. What do you think about the customs? It takes a

:15:19.:15:24.

long time. It's not necessary. What does it mean for the areas around

:15:25.:15:32.

the border? We have a lot of the people employed, taking care of

:15:33.:15:34.

administrations made up by this border of course. It's an industry

:15:35.:15:37.

of bureaucracy then? Yes, exactly. In 1995, Sweden joined the EU but

:15:38.:15:52.

Norway didn't. Although Norway is in she thinkle and the single market,

:15:53.:15:59.

it's not in the customs union. And that means different laws and taxes

:16:00.:16:04.

on different imports and exports with inevitable problems. There's no

:16:05.:16:09.

import tax on garlic in Norway but there is import tax on garlic in the

:16:10.:16:14.

EU. So if I was in Norway and I decided I wanted to buy some garlic

:16:15.:16:18.

and then I walked over that bridge without declaring it and tried to

:16:19.:16:22.

sell it in Sweden, I would be breaking the law. The garlic example

:16:23.:16:30.

sounds ridiculous, but garlic smuggling actually happens. In 2013,

:16:31.:16:34.

international arrest warrants were placed on two British men for

:16:35.:16:38.

smuggling ?8 million of Chinese garlic into the EU via Norway. And

:16:39.:16:45.

so, customs checks have to take place between Norway and Sweden.

:16:46.:16:55.

These ladies are head of customs on the Norwegian side of the border.

:16:56.:16:59.

This is a Polish lorry? Yes. That is right. You are interested in what is

:17:00.:17:05.

inside it? Yes. He has declared some goods. We have the paper for it and

:17:06.:17:09.

now we have to look if there is something else. To check what is

:17:10.:17:16.

actually in there? Yes. It's doors and windows on the trailers, so I

:17:17.:17:19.

can't see anything other than what he has declared. Quite a lot of work

:17:20.:17:25.

to find out what is in all of these lorries? Yes. This camera helps us a

:17:26.:17:32.

lot. Not all the lorries are scanned, but of those that do, not

:17:33.:17:38.

everyone behaves themselves. Yes. This is all the things... Alcohol

:17:39.:17:43.

and cigarettes are considerably cheaper in Sweden and taxes are

:17:44.:17:48.

lower on things like textiles. So if you haven't declared them, they get

:17:49.:17:54.

confiscated. Norway and Sweden collaborate closely and the customs

:17:55.:17:57.

process is almost completely automated. You can even download an

:17:58.:18:01.

app so that you can declare your goods on your phone. But truckers

:18:02.:18:07.

still have to stop for between five and ten minutes, and much longer if

:18:08.:18:11.

there are queues. Some truckers are fine with that. What do you think

:18:12.:18:14.

about the trucker process? It's not a problem for me, I'm from Sweden so

:18:15.:18:19.

it's fine. Others are less enthusiastic. The people here say it

:18:20.:18:25.

takes about ten minutes? That's not correct. If you come here on a

:18:26.:18:32.

Sunday evening, first I have to wait two hours. So the queue takes a long

:18:33.:18:34.

time? Yes. They say they've tried to prioritise

:18:35.:18:54.

things here, according to the Mayor. We have this year managed to get rid

:18:55.:19:00.

of two or three more of them. When we first joined the European Union,

:19:01.:19:09.

the ambulance in Sweden had to go via the custom control in Norway.

:19:10.:19:16.

And they were supposed to pay for the different drugs and equipment

:19:17.:19:18.

they had in the ambulance and they'll have the money back when

:19:19.:19:23.

they returned. But carrying a sick person, it wasn't possible to go via

:19:24.:19:30.

the custom control. That wasn't an easy thing to solve because it was

:19:31.:19:33.

obvious to everyone that you can't have it like that. But there's one

:19:34.:19:38.

key detail that makes this border so attractive to British politicians -

:19:39.:19:43.

that a bridge just down the river from this crossing helpfully

:19:44.:19:46.

illustrates. You may notice something different on this bridge

:19:47.:19:50.

between Sweden which is just over there and Norway behind me. And that

:19:51.:19:54.

is that there aren't any trucks or lorries on it. And that's for a

:19:55.:20:00.

reason. There are ten customs checks between Norway and Sweden and

:20:01.:20:05.

traders have to use these routes. Other crossings don't have customs

:20:06.:20:11.

checks and are monitored by cameras. Last week, Newsnight's David

:20:12.:20:15.

Grossman illustrated the soft border Ireland currently has. Wanna see how

:20:16.:20:19.

soft this border is right now? That is van is in the republic, now it's

:20:20.:20:23.

in the UK. The only hint it's gone from one country to another, the

:20:24.:20:28.

speed limit signs go from metric to imperial. If the UK were to emulate

:20:29.:20:35.

the Swedish Norwegian model for a normal punter not in the import

:20:36.:20:38.

export business, they really won't notice much of a difference. For

:20:39.:20:42.

truckers, it's a different story. There is hope for a true

:20:43.:20:48.

frictionless border though. Sweden and Norway intend to pilot next year

:20:49.:20:53.

using number plate recognition in order to automatically approve some

:20:54.:20:57.

vehicles. Can it be done technically, can something scan the

:20:58.:21:01.

lorries? Yes, they can scan the lorries and the registration plates.

:21:02.:21:06.

And that technology exists? The technology is there already. It's

:21:07.:21:11.

not implemented, it's not installed. To implement this technology, Martin

:21:12.:21:15.

says, means changing legislation which Norway, Sweden and the EU

:21:16.:21:25.

needs to approve. Not an easy task. David Davis is right to say that the

:21:26.:21:29.

Swedish Norwegian border is something to look at. But is it

:21:30.:21:31.

frictionless? Well, not quite. This year 16-year-olds could be

:21:32.:21:36.

forgiven for feeling like they need an extra GCSE

:21:37.:21:43.

to understand their exam results. This morning students in England

:21:44.:21:46.

received a mixture of numbers Numbers from one to nine

:21:47.:21:49.

for English and Maths and the traditional A,

:21:50.:21:53.

B, C letters for everything else. Grade 4 itself is

:21:54.:21:56.

a deemed as a 'pass'. Grade 5 is said to be

:21:57.:22:01.

a 'strong pass' splitting And for the brightest students -

:22:02.:22:04.

the old 'A star' and 'A' grades Grade 9 is the very top mark -

:22:05.:22:09.

and only achieved by a very The new system will be rolled

:22:10.:22:16.

out across all subjects The government claims this

:22:17.:22:19.

it is designed to make GCSEs harder, will drive up standards -

:22:20.:22:25.

but will the reforms And which students could risk

:22:26.:22:28.

getting lost in a new setup, already facing criticism

:22:29.:22:32.

for favouring the most able pupils? Joining me now are the outgoing head

:22:33.:22:36.

of Bedford Free School, Mark Lehain who is leaving to persue

:22:37.:22:39.

a career in education policy. Laura McInerney, Editor

:22:40.:22:43.

of Schoolsweek who used to be And Francis Gilbert -

:22:44.:22:47.

a teacher for 20 years and was one of the founders of the Local Schools

:22:48.:22:55.

Network. Is it worth the bother to have this

:22:56.:23:02.

complete change of the system? I think in the end it will be

:23:03.:23:05.

actually. I've been up since early because it was results day at my

:23:06.:23:09.

school and it's been a really, really positive buzzy day and

:23:10.:23:14.

there's been lots of lovely news to share with our students. From our

:23:15.:23:17.

students and talking to colleagues in other schools, students have got

:23:18.:23:20.

their head around the fact that they have a mixture of grades this year

:23:21.:23:23.

and it will be the same again next sun ever. -- summer. We are good at

:23:24.:23:30.

getting ourade around the system. But what is the benefit to the

:23:31.:23:35.

change? I'm also a maths teacher as well as a head teacher so I've

:23:36.:23:41.

taught the big fat massive GCSE and I've loved it. The students have

:23:42.:23:46.

done the foundation paper, grappling topics they might not have seen

:23:47.:23:48.

before. More challenging? Absolutely. And students have been

:23:49.:23:53.

getting stuck in, the top end. Let's talk about those in the middle.

:23:54.:23:58.

Papers will be filled with the eights, nines, but what about people

:23:59.:24:01.

around the four and five mark, Laura, does the new system hurt them

:24:02.:24:06.

more? This is where we have got a slightly strange situation because

:24:07.:24:09.

the Government have said the four is a standard pass and the five is a

:24:10.:24:13.

strong pass and it's not clear what that means. There is a concern that

:24:14.:24:16.

around one in five children who last year would have got a C which was

:24:17.:24:20.

just considered a pass and would get you into university and could get

:24:21.:24:23.

you into a job for example. Or an apprenticeship? Yes, which require a

:24:24.:24:28.

C. Now if those people ask for a five, there's one in five this year

:24:29.:24:31.

who got a four that might miss out. So we have a slightly odd situation

:24:32.:24:37.

in the middle and the Government haven't done a lot to clear that up.

:24:38.:24:41.

Employers have already said they're confused by this. They're left in

:24:42.:24:46.

limbo? Employers have always been confused. When you look at the

:24:47.:24:50.

surveys, they weren't clear on GCSEs either. But they're OK now going

:24:51.:24:55.

into college but we don't know what university is going to do.

:24:56.:25:01.

16-year-olds today might feel OK but in two years' time they might face a

:25:02.:25:06.

barrier. That is what is confusing. Do you see any merit in being

:25:07.:25:10.

ambitious and making the exams tougher and splitting the grade at

:25:11.:25:13.

the top and sometimes lower down because actually we need to

:25:14.:25:15.

understand where people are coming in? I would Dispute they're not

:25:16.:25:25.

tougher at all. I would say this massive concentration in on teaching

:25:26.:25:29.

in a test in a few hours on the other hand measures someone's

:25:30.:25:32.

ability over their whole school career is really troubling. I would

:25:33.:25:37.

get rid of the GCSEs completely and have us rethink the whole system

:25:38.:25:41.

because all students now go on to stay until 18 and we need to give

:25:42.:25:46.

them a rounded creative education which these GCSEs are not doing. I

:25:47.:25:51.

specialise in English and I certainly know that I've seen too

:25:52.:25:55.

many classes where it's just teaching to the test and the

:25:56.:25:58.

teachers aren't to blame for this, it's because central Government have

:25:59.:26:01.

got an obsession with the league tables. But that's not just come

:26:02.:26:06.

about with this system? No, it was there before. This Government have

:26:07.:26:10.

put rocket boosters on that. Mark, do you recognise any of that,

:26:11.:26:13.

teaching to test, it's not a full education now, it's all about the

:26:14.:26:16.

exam? No, of course I would dispute that. That's not why we go into the

:26:17.:26:21.

profession. But it might be the system... It's exam factories up and

:26:22.:26:27.

town the countries, the teachers aren't to blame, it's the

:26:28.:26:29.

politicians. Let him come back on that. Exam factories? We have always

:26:30.:26:34.

had the challenge about making sure you get the results at the end. That

:26:35.:26:37.

is nothing to do with the new grade systems. For me, the joy has been

:26:38.:26:42.

walking into the classes in my school. We are a new school so we

:26:43.:26:45.

have had to switch from getting our head around the old system to the

:26:46.:26:48.

new system in a short time. The joys has been going into the lessons and

:26:49.:26:54.

seeing my colleagues step up. What about creative subjects, drama,

:26:55.:26:58.

music, being cut back for the ex-tense of... No, no. The obsession

:26:59.:27:03.

with these kind of other... With respect, that's a leadership

:27:04.:27:05.

decision within a school. We have increased the art. That

:27:06.:27:21.

won't better GCSEs. It has everything to do with the way the

:27:22.:27:26.

Government's obsessively focussed on a few narrow subjects. I won't get

:27:27.:27:30.

you to agree on this, but Laura, you would like to see a return to

:27:31.:27:36.

O-levels wouldn't you and another system entirely? We have had a lot

:27:37.:27:41.

of change already so anything where we say rip everything up won't go

:27:42.:27:44.

down well. It would save millions of pounds. Let her finish. The original

:27:45.:27:50.

plan Michael Gove wanted was to reform things at the top end, we

:27:51.:27:53.

needed to get that differentiation for children who were very, very

:27:54.:27:57.

bright. What got missed was his plan to do something at the bottom end

:27:58.:28:02.

which is that children get very, very low grades. Some will have got

:28:03.:28:06.

a three, two or one and it's being considered a fail. Michael Gove's

:28:07.:28:10.

original plan was almost to split GCSEs in half and to enable some

:28:11.:28:14.

students to do more deeper but less content, if you like, so they could

:28:15.:28:18.

learn maybe two topics in history instead of four, do those over the

:28:19.:28:24.

two years and get one half of the GCSEs, then get the other half

:28:25.:28:29.

between the age of 16-18. These reforms are only helped the

:28:30.:28:32.

brightest and we have left the rest without any reform at all. Let me

:28:33.:28:37.

bring you back in, Mark. I know you have set up this school, you are

:28:38.:28:41.

leaving it to do other things but staying within education. It's very

:28:42.:28:45.

well you saying it's been a lovely day with celebrations, but parents

:28:46.:28:48.

and students will be watching who it wasn't a lovely day for. What are

:28:49.:28:53.

you doing to support those who now have no idea whether their four or

:28:54.:28:58.

five means they can get to the new stage because nobody really knows

:28:59.:29:01.

what it means? You can never know what the future holds but in the

:29:02.:29:05.

end, we have been really good at addressing changes we have had in

:29:06.:29:08.

the past. What have you said to those pupils today? Just as we have

:29:09.:29:11.

seen universities this year, just what they have been asking students

:29:12.:29:15.

in order they can fill their courses, it's inevitable you will

:29:16.:29:18.

find universities are not the answer. These pupils are the Guinea

:29:19.:29:22.

pigs and there's been a lot of change. Regardless of your view, we

:29:23.:29:27.

have had three Education Ministers in a matter of years and there's

:29:28.:29:30.

been huge changes. What have you said to pupil who is 're in limbo?

:29:31.:29:34.

The most important thing they can do now is to make sure that what they

:29:35.:29:40.

do next they do really, really well, be it an apprenticeship, A-levels or

:29:41.:29:47.

something else. Everyone has to stay in training until they're 18. If

:29:48.:29:53.

they haven't achieved the grade they need, they have a year or two to

:29:54.:29:58.

sort it out. I have to say, we have got to give our profession, students

:29:59.:30:00.

and families the credit because they've stepped up to the challenge

:30:01.:30:05.

when other things have happen and we are really good on that. Thank you

:30:06.:30:06.

very much. teacher! Spirited debate. Six hundred thousand of us visit

:30:07.:30:16.

Morocco on holiday every year. But there is a dark side

:30:17.:30:19.

to the country that most of us just associate with sun

:30:20.:30:22.

and seaside and soukhs. Last week a group of teenagers

:30:23.:30:24.

collectively raped a 24-year-old in a bus in broad

:30:25.:30:26.

daylight in Casablanca. No one stopped them

:30:27.:30:29.

and the woman did not report it. The attack was filmed and put

:30:30.:30:32.

on social media sparking outrage. And yesterday protests took place

:30:33.:30:34.

across the country in solidarity Amnesty International's Fadwa

:30:35.:30:37.

Elbooamrawee joins us from Rabat. Good evening. How big a problem...

:30:38.:31:01.

This... And how big a problem is sexual violence against women in

:31:02.:31:10.

Morocco? Indeed, this is not a first-time issue, as you mentioned,

:31:11.:31:14.

this is part of a widespread phenomenon that has been happening

:31:15.:31:18.

in this country for years now. As a human rights organisation, along

:31:19.:31:23.

with the other national and international organisations, we have

:31:24.:31:26.

been calling for years for the government is to be more proactive

:31:27.:31:30.

and find real solutions to put an end to its violence against women.

:31:31.:31:35.

And girls, especially in the public space. So far, we are still quite

:31:36.:31:39.

disappointed with the way things have been going on, with, you know,

:31:40.:31:46.

the governmentgovernment's work on this issue, as we have seen over the

:31:47.:31:48.

latest reaction from the government on this video and rape incidents on

:31:49.:31:58.

the bus, we are still disappointed. They have been mentioned vaguely, in

:31:59.:32:00.

clear terms that the government will be working on a strategy, and a

:32:01.:32:04.

mechanism to put an end to all of this. But then again, the

:32:05.:32:09.

government, through unclear statements, does not clarify

:32:10.:32:13.

exactly, you know, how it is supposed to work on this. They are

:32:14.:32:18.

not clarifying the nature of the strategy. And so... We are still...

:32:19.:32:26.

Can I just... I want to bring to the audience's attention, I did not know

:32:27.:32:31.

this, only in 2014, a matter of three years ago, has it become

:32:32.:32:38.

against the law to rape an underage girl, and get out of prosecution by

:32:39.:32:41.

marrying her! Have attitudes changed since the law was amended? Not much,

:32:42.:32:48.

to be honest, this is again another issue that we have to deal with and

:32:49.:32:54.

we are still trying to work on this, we are talking about a very

:32:55.:32:58.

conservative society that puts, you know, higher priority on the honour

:32:59.:33:05.

of the family. That puts priority on the honour of the girl of the family

:33:06.:33:10.

and society in general. We are not considering a woman as an equal

:33:11.:33:15.

citizen, and, again, when we talk about mentalities, regarding sexual

:33:16.:33:23.

harassment, rape, there is a taboo that goes into it, this is a

:33:24.:33:26.

patriarchal society, and the fact that since 2014, as an organisation

:33:27.:33:31.

we have been working through a global campaign on putting an end to

:33:32.:33:37.

violence. The one thing that is still very clear is that we are

:33:38.:33:42.

still a long way ahead in terms of changing mentalities, and creating

:33:43.:33:47.

actual real awareness about the issues. Thank you very much for

:33:48.:33:54.

talking to us and giving us that perspective from Amnesty

:33:55.:33:55.

International, talking about Morocco and it is an interesting insight and

:33:56.:33:58.

a sad one. South Africa's main opposition party

:33:59.:34:05.

is claiming that a major UK public relations firm has been found

:34:06.:34:07.

in breach of an industry code of conduct following a controversial

:34:08.:34:10.

social media campaign. As we reported a few weeks ago,

:34:11.:34:12.

Bell Pottinger has been accused of inflaming racial tensions

:34:13.:34:15.

in the country with the aim of boosting the image

:34:16.:34:17.

of the President, Jacob Zuma. Manvine Rana has been

:34:18.:34:19.

following the story. Good evening. Give us the background

:34:20.:34:28.

to all of this and what have we specifically learnt today? So, a

:34:29.:34:35.

disciplinary hearing heard on this on Friday, according to the

:34:36.:34:40.

published timetable, if it had been accelerated we would have known

:34:41.:34:41.

today, that has not happened, work in South Africa,

:34:42.:34:58.

hired by the Gupta family, who have made millions in the last couple of

:34:59.:35:03.

decades. This action was ruled by the opposition, it has become a huge

:35:04.:35:08.

politically totemic action, it is a proxy war against president Jacob

:35:09.:35:11.

Zuma himself, he is very close to this family, gather they are accused

:35:12.:35:16.

in South Africa of corruption and political influence on such an epic

:35:17.:35:21.

scale that it is called state capture, buying up a state to get

:35:22.:35:25.

government contract. Bell Pottinger Were brought in to bring attention

:35:26.:35:29.

away from this, by launching a racially divisive campaign,

:35:30.:35:33.

basically encouraging South Africans to blame their economic woes not on

:35:34.:35:37.

the president, and his policies, but on Wightman Okoli capital, the white

:35:38.:35:41.

businesses who have always operated in the country. What impact, from

:35:42.:35:46.

what we have learnt today, will it have on Bell Pottinger? -- but on

:35:47.:35:56.

white minority capital. They will announce sanctions they will take on

:35:57.:36:01.

September four, a couple of actions, they could expel them from the body

:36:02.:36:05.

from itself, they could suspend them, they could still work in the

:36:06.:36:09.

industry but since the scandal has broken, they have lost a number of

:36:10.:36:13.

clients. I interviewed this year, he admitted as much then, they are

:36:14.:36:17.

losing even more now, once found guilty by the industry body, it

:36:18.:36:21.

becomes hard for... Why do you think they may have been found guilty by

:36:22.:36:25.

the industry body? It has become so politically toxic, to be honest,

:36:26.:36:29.

since the interview I did with the CEO, I have been contacted by a

:36:30.:36:32.

number of people in the industry who saw this as looking so bad for the

:36:33.:36:37.

PR industry at large, they want to detox altogether, and they feel that

:36:38.:36:42.

if nothing is in to be done, the PR industry starts to look very bad.

:36:43.:36:45.

Now, there has been remiss in the last two days that the CEO has

:36:46.:36:50.

resigned, he denies it, we will wait and see, being a PR firm, if you

:36:51.:36:54.

would resign, you would probably wait... Thank you very much.

:36:55.:37:03.

Newsnight doesn't usually cover much sport.

:37:04.:37:10.

Frankly, we know our strengths, but the most hyped

:37:11.:37:13.

and possibly most absurd, sporting event of the year

:37:14.:37:15.

takes place this weekend so we're giving it a go.

:37:16.:37:19.

The undefeated 40-year-old Floyd Mayweather has come out of

:37:20.:37:27.

retirement to take on the ultimate fighting Champion, Ireland's Conor

:37:28.:37:28.

McGregor. -- The undefeated 40-year-old world

:37:29.:37:45.

champion Floyd Mayweather has come out of retirement to meet not a

:37:46.:37:48.

fellow boxer, but an Ultimate Fighting Champion. Ireland's

:37:49.:37:49.

29-year-old Conor McGregor. For the uninitiated, UFC was once described

:37:50.:37:51.

as no-holds barred human cock-fighting, but mixed martial

:37:52.:37:53.

artist Conor McGregor looks to be the tournament's first fighter to

:37:54.:37:55.

gain the recognition and respectability of mainstream boxing.

:37:56.:37:57.

Saturday night's fight will be McGregor's boxing debut, but that

:37:58.:38:02.

has not held back the hype and the trash talk.

:38:03.:38:14.

Mayweather is also gambling a lot in the ring,

:38:15.:38:16.

he will surpass fellow American Rocky Marciano's perfect

:38:17.:38:18.

record of 49 fights without defeat if he beats McGregor.

:38:19.:38:20.

But they both also have a lot to gain.

:38:21.:38:22.

McGregor's in line for a $100 million payday

:38:23.:38:24.

and Mayweather as much as $200 million.

:38:25.:38:27.

And they aren't the only ones raking in the cash, the broadcasters

:38:28.:38:33.

are set to profit as well, the fight's expected

:38:34.:38:35.

to break the record of 4.6 million pay-per-view buys set

:38:36.:38:41.

by Mayweather when he defeated Manny Pacquiao two years ago.

:38:42.:38:43.

So is this just a shameless cash grab, or will it be the greatest

:38:44.:38:46.

Joining me now from Las Vegas is Dan Hardy, a former ultimate

:38:47.:38:57.

fighter and now a Sky commentator for Saturday night's

:38:58.:39:00.

show, alongside the Editor of Boxing News magazine,

:39:01.:39:05.

Are you expecting great things? I am, we are already experiencing

:39:06.:39:16.

great things, breaking records left, right and centre, the fanfare, the

:39:17.:39:20.

hysteria, something we have never seen, certainly in mixed martial

:39:21.:39:23.

arts and not in boxing either, it is a special occasion.

:39:24.:39:25.

It will bring the best out of these fighters. Conor McGregor's first

:39:26.:39:32.

ever boxing match is this, against Floyd Mayweather, undefeated, he is

:39:33.:39:37.

not a professional boxer...? Has been thrown in at the deep end but

:39:38.:39:41.

this is where Conor McGregor's thrives, he has come through mixed

:39:42.:39:44.

martial arts and rewritten the rules around self-promotion, around

:39:45.:39:49.

performances inside the arena as well. The is a special athlete and

:39:50.:39:53.

they do not come along very often, when you have a person like Conor

:39:54.:39:57.

McGregor, he transcends the sport, he can step outside the octagon and

:39:58.:40:01.

step into the boxing ring. We have to give him a chance. Nothing to do

:40:02.:40:04.

with smelling the money, of course(!) LAUGHTER

:40:05.:40:08.

Do you think the boxing world has underestimated Conor McGregor? You

:40:09.:40:12.

have heard he's pretty special. I don't think we have, actually, he

:40:13.:40:18.

certainly has something about him, magnetic personality, fantastic

:40:19.:40:21.

fight in his own discipline, we know he has had a bit of boxing

:40:22.:40:24.

experience as a youngster, he has been training exceptionally hard,

:40:25.:40:27.

there has been good reports from his training camp. To make the jump to

:40:28.:40:31.

fight somebody who has been boxing since three years old is arguably

:40:32.:40:35.

one of the greatest fighters of all time and one of the best defensive

:40:36.:40:38.

fighters of all time, that is a humongous, almost ludicrous leap. A

:40:39.:40:43.

huge amount of hype about this, surely good for the boxing world?

:40:44.:40:48.

There is certainly a lot of hype about it but my concern is... Where

:40:49.:40:53.

does this spectacle appeal stop? Just because lots of people want to

:40:54.:40:57.

see something, does not make it OK, where do we go next? What if Conor

:40:58.:41:02.

McGregor wins, for example, and decides he wants to fight Anthony

:41:03.:41:04.

Joshua, and because everybody wants to see that fight, have we got to

:41:05.:41:12.

make it, even though it is insane... Coming back, boxing is hardly... You

:41:13.:41:15.

could hardly say it is noble, Floyd Mayweather's nickname is money, it

:41:16.:41:20.

is hardly as if people get into it for the noble art, isn't it. --

:41:21.:41:25.

"Money". Know, and I did not suggest that is the case at all, no one

:41:26.:41:30.

could deny that the vast majority of Floyd Mayweather's career has been

:41:31.:41:33.

fuelled by his need and desire for riches. So they are pretty evenly

:41:34.:41:40.

matched, then, maybe. Evenly matched, bank balance, they could

:41:41.:41:44.

have a good fight! In terms of boxing, absolutely not evenly

:41:45.:41:48.

matched. Your money is on Floyd? Yes, my money is on Floyd, my money

:41:49.:41:58.

is on "Money". I'm commentating for Sky Sports, I have to stay

:41:59.:42:01.

impartial... I'm here to its blame basically, there is a chance for

:42:02.:42:06.

Conor, cannot count him out, Floyd Mayweather is great but he's 40, out

:42:07.:42:10.

of the sport for two years, 49 training camps will take it out of

:42:11.:42:14.

you. And problems, not necessarily the hardest puncher. His technique,

:42:15.:42:19.

defensive boxing, is excellent. The reason people are tuning in is

:42:20.:42:23.

because of Conor McGregor, no boxer in the world would have brought

:42:24.:42:25.

Floyd "Money" Mayweather out of retirement. No other UFC fighter

:42:26.:42:31.

could generate as much money as this. It will be on five live.

:42:32.:42:37.

That is all that we have time for. Naga Muchetty will be here tomorrow

:42:38.:42:43.

night. I'll see you soon. Goodnight. Weather feels like it is stuck in a

:42:44.:42:57.

rut, very similar whether

:42:58.:42:58.