25/08/2017 Newsnight


25/08/2017

With Naga Munchetty. Will the so-called Islamic State's collapse bring more terror? Plus violence in northern India, driverless lorries and could women beat men at the marathon?


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 25/08/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

The battle for Raqqa is raging and the US-backed coalition

:00:08.:00:09.

is closing in on the so-called Islamic State.

:00:10.:00:13.

But as its grip on the caliphate weakens,

:00:14.:00:15.

In the early years of the self-proclaimed caliphate,

:00:16.:00:21.

the message was all about travelling out to Syria to help

:00:22.:00:23.

Now, the message to supporters in the West is to stay away

:00:24.:00:31.

and attack the "kaffir", disbelievers, at home.

:00:32.:00:33.

Violent clashes leave at least 23 dead

:00:34.:00:34.

in Northern India as a religious leader is convicted of rape.

:00:35.:00:37.

We'll hear from an Indian journalist who has followed the case.

:00:38.:00:45.

Also tonight, the Government announces the first

:00:46.:00:47.

steps to self-driving lorries on Britain's roads.

:00:48.:00:55.

So what does the future hold for those who drive for a living?

:00:56.:00:58.

Well, I think it's going to be dangerous.

:00:59.:01:00.

Why not? Well, it might kill somebody.

:01:01.:01:07.

And a study suggests that women have more stamina than men.

:01:08.:01:09.

So could there be female domination at endurance sports?

:01:10.:01:25.

For more than three years, the black flags of so-called

:01:26.:01:29.

Islamic State have cast a dark and bloody shadow

:01:30.:01:31.

But soon they might flutter their last.

:01:32.:01:49.

The battle for Raqqa, IS's defacto capital in Syria,

:01:50.:01:51.

Still, as the self-styled caliphate crumbles, there are fears the group

:01:52.:01:55.

will increase its efforts to terrorise Europe's shores -

:01:56.:01:57.

and concerns about what might happen if its fighters return home.

:01:58.:01:59.

This map shows how IS control in Iraq and Syria peaked in 2016.

:02:00.:02:03.

Since then, its collapse has been swift.

:02:04.:02:04.

This is the territory it controlled at the end of June this year.

:02:05.:02:07.

Data from the Global Terrorism Database at the University

:02:08.:02:09.

of Maryland show that between 2013 and 2016, there were 211

:02:10.:02:12.

terror attacks outside Iraq and Syria by IS

:02:13.:02:21.

Since 2013, five such attacks were in the UK.

:02:22.:02:26.

Security sources say that in the last four years,

:02:27.:02:28.

attack by a man outside Buckingham Palace.

:02:29.:02:55.

Either way it shows that Britain is on high alert. It begs the question,

:02:56.:03:04.

if IS is weakened in Syria, where will it turn attention to next?

:03:05.:03:09.

Slowly but surely, so-called Islamic State's caliphate is being

:03:10.:03:18.

IS is losing battle after battle on the ground.

:03:19.:03:21.

But it's too early to say it's lost the war, because

:03:22.:03:24.

as the state fails, it will continue in other forms.

:03:25.:03:42.

It's a proto-state in Raqqa, and Mosul, and over those areas.

:03:43.:03:44.

It's also an insurgency across Syria and Iraq.

:03:45.:03:46.

And it's a terrorist movement to us here in the West.

:03:47.:03:49.

It occupies all of these three states simultaneously.

:03:50.:03:51.

Just because it's being pushed back as a state, that does nothing

:03:52.:03:54.

So, what does this mean for the UK terror threat?

:03:55.:04:00.

Around 850 jihadists from Britain have gone out

:04:01.:04:02.

Half of the remainder, about 360, have already returned here.

:04:03.:04:07.

But many of these are early adopters and may pose a lesser threat.

:04:08.:04:15.

People who went in 2012 were motivated by very different

:04:16.:04:17.

The drivers of their radicalisation, the pull, the alure,

:04:18.:04:21.

When we talk about returnees in the UK, people who have come

:04:22.:04:36.

back, they are pretty much people who went earlier on.

:04:37.:04:38.

Many of those still in Syria will want to stay and die fighting.

:04:39.:04:41.

And even if they did try to return, security sources have told Newsnight

:04:42.:04:44.

that MI5 knows the identities of most of the 850 British

:04:45.:04:47.

So, getting back into the UK undetected would be very difficult.

:04:48.:04:51.

Plus Turkey and transit countries are cooperating with intelligence.

:04:52.:05:02.

We know of one case of an individual with IS who did return to the UK,

:05:03.:05:06.

So he travelled through various countries by road, by car,

:05:07.:05:10.

and jumped on a ferry in the end, and came across the UK.

:05:11.:05:13.

When he did, the police had been monitoring him and tracking him

:05:14.:05:16.

the whole way across Europe so as soon as he set foot on these

:05:17.:05:19.

He's been convicted, he is serving a sentence right

:05:20.:05:22.

In Syria, IS's gradual defeat may actually spur supporters in the West

:05:23.:05:31.

Official security sources have told Newsnight has been a marked

:05:32.:05:39.

shift in IS propaganda, and this now is the major

:05:40.:05:41.

threat against the UK, and not from fighters physically

:05:42.:05:43.

Any early years of the self-proclaimed caliphate,

:05:44.:05:49.

the message was all about travelling out to Syria to help

:05:50.:05:51.

Now, the message to supporters in the West is to stay away

:05:52.:06:00.

and attack the "kaffir", the disbelievers, at home.

:06:01.:06:05.

The most recent attacks in Spain illustrate this well.

:06:06.:06:07.

The leader of the plot, a preacher, was blown up

:06:08.:06:09.

There is some evidence he spent time in prison with one of the terrorists

:06:10.:06:16.

responsible for the 2004 Al-Qaeda train bombings in Madrid.

:06:17.:06:27.

But there's no evidence yet of any link with Syria.

:06:28.:06:29.

TRANSLATION: We have no evidence to prove that any of the attackers

:06:30.:06:32.

Most of the attacks we discovered in Catalonia and Spain in the last

:06:33.:06:37.

few years have been inspired by propaganda found online.

:06:38.:06:43.

But it's usually low-key incidents, mainly propaganda and small-scale

:06:44.:06:45.

terrorist financing, or sending recruits

:06:46.:06:46.

So, how do you stop low-tech attacks using trucks or knives?

:06:47.:06:52.

It's become much harder as the threat has diversified.

:06:53.:06:57.

Al-Qaeda plots were relatively sophisticated,

:06:58.:07:03.

There was a chain of command, networks to penetrate,

:07:04.:07:12.

So is a shift in counter-terror tactics today required to combat

:07:13.:07:17.

TRANSLATION: It's important to tackle the threat at all stages,

:07:18.:07:32.

from the process of catching new recruits to Islamic State,

:07:33.:07:35.

dealing with self-starters who are attracted to the propaganda,

:07:36.:07:37.

and police techniques to detect and dismantle these extremist

:07:38.:07:39.

Security sources here in the UK have told Newsnight that

:07:40.:07:48.

when intelligence does not meet the threshold for terrorist

:07:49.:07:50.

prosecutions, then they look for evidence of lesser crimes.

:07:51.:07:52.

Arrests are then made to disrupt networks and plots.

:07:53.:07:59.

A lot of people, myself included, would like to see the authorities

:08:00.:08:04.

being far more disruptive in terms of arrests and prosecutions

:08:05.:08:10.

of people who are engaging with this material, who are engaging

:08:11.:08:13.

with spreading terrorist content, who are looking at that content

:08:14.:08:16.

There needs to be a much tougher and proactive legislative

:08:17.:08:20.

approach towards this, an arrest approach towards this.

:08:21.:08:26.

One former counterterrorism police officer told us that low-level

:08:27.:08:28.

crime often features in terrorist investigations.

:08:29.:08:34.

But he says the UK has preferred to run investigations long,

:08:35.:08:36.

with the aim of securing terrorist convictions.

:08:37.:08:46.

We might find evidence of theft or credit card fraud,

:08:47.:08:48.

So, on terrorism, it's simply the same thing.

:08:49.:08:53.

For many years, I've been saying I don't know why we don't go

:08:54.:08:57.

Given that MI5 has 500 active investigations and

:08:58.:09:00.

six plots have been stopped since the Westminster Bridge attack

:09:01.:09:03.

in June, disruption by prosecuting for low-level offences is likely

:09:04.:09:05.

to become an increasingly vital tool.

:09:06.:09:18.

So what of the hundreds of Britons who joined Isis

:09:19.:09:21.

And how worried should we be about the changing threat?

:09:22.:09:25.

I'm joined by Tasnime Akunjee - he's a criminal lawyer who has

:09:26.:09:27.

specialised in terror cases and represented the families

:09:28.:09:29.

of three schoolgirls from Bethnal Green who fled to Syria.

:09:30.:09:34.

With us from Dubai is Aimon Deen, he's a former extremist who joined

:09:35.:09:37.

Al-Qaeda before leaving the group and becoming an informant for Mi5.

:09:38.:09:45.

What we know so far is that one of those schoolgirls is believed to be

:09:46.:09:51.

dead and the other two unknown. Watching that report, what you think

:09:52.:09:59.

would motivate someone considering IS's caliphate shrinking, and the

:10:00.:10:08.

state of its presence in Syria now, what would motivate somebody to

:10:09.:10:12.

stay? A few things, number one, their inability to leave, that would

:10:13.:10:16.

cause them to stay. I would imagine, they would be concerned about what

:10:17.:10:22.

would be like -- what life would be like should they return. The

:10:23.:10:27.

prospect of coming back to a European country from which they may

:10:28.:10:31.

have originated, knowing they may well be detected, probably being

:10:32.:10:35.

aware that they are on the radar, from interactions with the

:10:36.:10:37.

authorities and their families since they left, then it is not an

:10:38.:10:41.

attractive prospect. And also, they have the problem of trying to get

:10:42.:10:46.

across a war zone into Turkey, whose shutters have come down some time

:10:47.:10:51.

ago in terms of the porous and is of its borders. And the short to kill

:10:52.:10:57.

-- shoot to kill policy on the border with Turkey. There are high

:10:58.:11:01.

hurdles for somebody to actually... I mentioned you represented the

:11:02.:11:07.

three families of the girls from Bethnal green, we understand, the

:11:08.:11:10.

understanding is, that one of them may be dead, it is not known, the

:11:11.:11:15.

fate of the other two. If they are alive, could they be motivated to

:11:16.:11:18.

come home? What could motivate them? In terms of the girl who was

:11:19.:11:25.

reportedly killed, there was an active attempt to bring her back,

:11:26.:11:29.

she wanted to leave, but the final straw that stopped her in gauging in

:11:30.:11:35.

that attack was the brutal murder of a 16-year-old Austrian girl, who had

:11:36.:11:40.

tried to leave the week before, she had been caught and beaten to death,

:11:41.:11:44.

publicly, for that attempt, and that is what stopped the attempt to

:11:45.:11:55.

leave. You work for Al-Qaeda between 1998 and 2006, part of the currency

:11:56.:11:58.

which helped you come home was that you knew you had associations with

:11:59.:12:05.

Osama bin Laden. How easy was it for you to return? At the time, it was

:12:06.:12:14.

easy, because I was going out of Afghanistan for a medical treatment,

:12:15.:12:18.

my intention was basically to leave, because it was in the aftermath of

:12:19.:12:23.

the East Africa bombings. I decided that it was not a path I wanted to

:12:24.:12:28.

continue with. During that medical leave, let's put it this way, I was

:12:29.:12:33.

then approached by MI6 at the time, and I was persuaded to continue

:12:34.:12:39.

working for Al-Qaeda, but passing information back to London. That is

:12:40.:12:45.

what happened. It was an environment which allowed me to go, which

:12:46.:12:52.

allowed me to leave. Not as paranoid as IS right now stop what we have

:12:53.:12:57.

been talking about the state of IS's control over Raqqa, and how the

:12:58.:13:03.

caliphate may be weakened, when you compare IS with Al-Qaeda... In terms

:13:04.:13:06.

of what they are able to do with terrorism... Is IS is strong with or

:13:07.:13:14.

without a physical state? Well, let us a member that between 2009, up

:13:15.:13:21.

until 2013, IS had no territory whatsoever. They were more or less

:13:22.:13:29.

an underground group, armed with a considerable amount of cash, and a

:13:30.:13:34.

network of businesses from Baghdad to Mosul to Ramadi and other places,

:13:35.:13:39.

and they were able to use this network of businesses, including

:13:40.:13:44.

cafes and restaurants, farms, transportation companies, in order

:13:45.:13:48.

to infiltrate the security services and the government headquarters in

:13:49.:13:53.

Iraq will stop then they were able to use that as an intelligence

:13:54.:13:56.

gathering network, then they took over a quarter of the country in

:13:57.:14:02.

lightning speed, using the fact that a neighbouring country there was a

:14:03.:14:07.

civil war, Syria. So, now, if they lose that territory, it does not

:14:08.:14:11.

matter because they have now a considerable amount of cash, as well

:14:12.:14:17.

as a considerable business network in neighbouring Turkey and in

:14:18.:14:21.

Kurdish regions, in northern Iraq, as well as the fact they have a

:14:22.:14:24.

network of sympathisers across the world. Which they never had

:14:25.:14:29.

2009-2013. So, they are perhaps an even greater threat than they were

:14:30.:14:36.

between 2009-2013. Is Europe more at risk, now the state is weakening, we

:14:37.:14:43.

have called it the endgame, in Raqqa? It is advising followers and

:14:44.:14:49.

supporters to make damage, to make terror where they are.

:14:50.:14:57.

Since they lost the border with Turkey, and the Turkish border

:14:58.:15:01.

became inaccessible in terms of smuggling people who are coming from

:15:02.:15:05.

Europe and other parts of the world, it became clear that they are

:15:06.:15:11.

telling would-be recruits, you know, potential recruits, to stay where

:15:12.:15:15.

they are, in Europe, Australia and North America, and to wage jihad

:15:16.:15:20.

wherever they are. The fact of the matter is that they themselves

:15:21.:15:24.

adopted this, almost since 15 months ago, telling people to stay where

:15:25.:15:27.

they are and wage jihad where they are. Because now, Isis is moving

:15:28.:15:34.

from being a proto- state into a transnational terrorist

:15:35.:15:38.

organisation. What do you think? Do you think you have seen more people,

:15:39.:15:41.

if people are being urged to stay in Europe, do you think there is also

:15:42.:15:47.

that motivation, however difficult it is, to return? I think being

:15:48.:15:52.

urged to stay is just a soft power projection statement by Isis,

:15:53.:15:55.

suggesting they have some control over the fact when they don't.

:15:56.:16:01.

People can't leave the UK. I know, I mean supporter staying in Europe,

:16:02.:16:06.

not going to Syria? Again, it is still a soft power issue. If any

:16:07.:16:10.

attack happens inside of Europe, Isis will claim it is on the basis

:16:11.:16:13.

that they made that edict, rather than the fact that, physically, they

:16:14.:16:18.

could not, the individual couldn't move. More importantly, the reason

:16:19.:16:23.

why Isis is more dangerous is not because it has a network, it is

:16:24.:16:30.

because it is now a franchise. If somebody was to get news headlines,

:16:31.:16:33.

they just have to do something that is crazy, pick up a knife or drive a

:16:34.:16:36.

car into somebody, which actually happens quite a lot, our prisons are

:16:37.:16:41.

filled with criminals, but to get front page on that you just say you

:16:42.:16:45.

did it in the name of Isis. Thank you very much. Thank you for your

:16:46.:16:49.

time. Curfews are in place and thousands

:16:50.:16:51.

of soldiers are on the streets in cities across five of India's

:16:52.:16:54.

northern states - this after violence erupted

:16:55.:16:56.

after the conviction Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh was found

:16:57.:16:58.

guilty of raping two women at the headquarters

:16:59.:17:04.

of his Dera Sacha Sauda sect, which claims to have

:17:05.:17:07.

60 million followers. At least 23 people were killed

:17:08.:17:11.

in clashes after the hearing The violence later spread

:17:12.:17:16.

to the capital Delhi. The convictions have halted

:17:17.:17:23.

the superstar lifestyle of the self-styled religious leader,

:17:24.:17:24.

who starred in rock concerts and movies as was known

:17:25.:17:27.

as the culture of bling. His conviction ends years of

:17:28.:17:39.

controversy over his conduct. Earlier, I spoke to an Indian

:17:40.:17:44.

journalist who has reported on Singh and his sect for more than a decade.

:17:45.:17:48.

I began by asking what the situation is in India tonight. We just

:17:49.:17:54.

received information that the death count, the mayhem that followed the

:17:55.:18:01.

arrest of Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh has resulted in the death of more

:18:02.:18:08.

than 50 people, including in Punjab. So, the situation is pretty tense.

:18:09.:18:13.

Tell us about Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh. To you, he is a well-known

:18:14.:18:17.

name. But very little is known about him here. Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh is

:18:18.:18:24.

the chief of a set called Dera Sacha Sauda. He is known to have too much

:18:25.:18:32.

power in India because of his close proximity with the ruling and

:18:33.:18:38.

opposition parties. The city from where he operates, he is virtually

:18:39.:18:43.

the king of the city. The city is divided into two halves, one is run

:18:44.:18:48.

by Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh and he has a following of millions. There

:18:49.:18:55.

are accusations against him ranging from sexual exploitation, murder,

:18:56.:18:58.

castration and other illegal activities. He was evading the law

:18:59.:19:02.

since 2002, because of his connections with higher-ups in state

:19:03.:19:06.

machinery and political parties. Take us back to the beginning of

:19:07.:19:11.

this man's life. How has he managed to amass such a huge following,

:19:12.:19:17.

millions of people adoring him? People in the upper caste of India,

:19:18.:19:25.

they were looking for something where they can get a certain kind of

:19:26.:19:28.

equality in the social system. The other thing was, Gurmeet Ram Rahim

:19:29.:19:34.

Singh was known to have good connections in the ruling parties.

:19:35.:19:43.

This am a nation of power, and realisation that, OK, there is

:19:44.:19:46.

somebody giving us a space in society. Because of his close

:19:47.:19:50.

connection with bureaucracy and politicians, he was able to get work

:19:51.:19:54.

done, people had faith in him that he was somebody that was a God. That

:19:55.:20:01.

was the time when he started exploiting his disciples. You will

:20:02.:20:05.

be surprised to know, in the process of the investigation, we chanced

:20:06.:20:10.

upon a witness who has given a statement, that how everyday he

:20:11.:20:25.

wanted a new woman in his chamber, and rules for this to be provided

:20:26.:20:31.

for him. In 2002, one of his disciples, then Prime Minister of

:20:32.:20:35.

India, an anonymous letter stated how she was sexually exploited by

:20:36.:20:42.

Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh. Now that these accusations have come, now

:20:43.:20:47.

that his reputation is in tatters, what will happen to his followers? I

:20:48.:20:55.

am sure that this outburst, this will not last long. The death of

:20:56.:21:03.

more than 28, 30 people, it has really exposed him. I know that

:21:04.:21:08.

these supporters were completely dependent on him. The man was

:21:09.:21:14.

getting their dirty work done, the man was like a god for them. I think

:21:15.:21:20.

in a matter of a few days, things will be under control. The

:21:21.:21:23.

supporters that were supporting them, whatever job they were doing,

:21:24.:21:27.

whatever things they were doing, they have to go back to their normal

:21:28.:21:29.

life. Platoons of driverless lorries,

:21:30.:21:32.

thundering down our motorways. That vision came closer today

:21:33.:21:34.

after the government gave the green light to test runs of self-driving

:21:35.:21:39.

trucks on Britain's clogged roads. For now only some of the functions

:21:40.:21:42.

will be performed by the machines - there will still be drivers

:21:43.:21:45.

in each vehicle. But the announcement

:21:46.:21:47.

raises questions about the future of travel -

:21:48.:21:49.

and of professional drivers. Is the traditional trucker,

:21:50.:21:53.

or the cheerful cabbie, When the world - and Newsnight -

:21:54.:21:56.

was a little more carefree than it is now, Stephen Smith

:21:57.:22:04.

was our Motorway Man. The poorer old lorry drivers come in

:22:05.:22:20.

for some affectionate ribbing over the years. But we would miss him if

:22:21.:22:24.

he wasn't there. # I like trucking!

:22:25.:22:35.

But what's this? Replaced by a smoothie with a tablet? Look, no

:22:36.:22:47.

hands. A computer has taken over the tedious chore of actually driving.

:22:48.:22:56.

In this test run, the speed of the second wagon is set by the League 1.

:22:57.:23:00.

The pair of them are linked by Wi-Fi, something called platooning.

:23:01.:23:11.

Yellow marker 10% less fuel, that is money of our shopping bills. Less

:23:12.:23:16.

CO2, we will be helping the planet. If we get platooning, vehicles

:23:17.:23:19.

moving smoother together, we won't get the traffic jams. Finally,

:23:20.:23:23.

safety, robots and sensors not making mistakes.

:23:24.:23:31.

But handing over the wheel to a robot would surely be too much to

:23:32.:23:41.

bear for the lorry drivers of Great Britain? We pulled into the London

:23:42.:23:48.

Gateway services on the M1, to dunk a dipstick in the emotions of the

:23:49.:23:56.

freighter fraternity. Think it's going to be dangerous. I don't think

:23:57.:24:05.

it'll work. Why not? Well, it might kill somebody. I think it is a death

:24:06.:24:08.

trap, to be honest with you. Definitely. Without somebody behind

:24:09.:24:14.

the wheel, to grab it. I don't know, maybe it is a good idea, for the

:24:15.:24:24.

traffic. I don't know. It could see people and stop. The trucker is the

:24:25.:24:29.

master of his vehicle, a connection we weaken at our peril, say some.

:24:30.:24:32.

The real difficulty comes with computers trying to respond to

:24:33.:24:38.

unexpected circumstances, a cat running into the middle-of-the-road,

:24:39.:24:43.

or having to take an immediate left turn because something has happened,

:24:44.:24:49.

there is and obstruction. It is the 1% of stuff, the tail end risk.

:24:50.:24:53.

Computers have not managed to figure all of that out. Even if you have a

:24:54.:24:58.

leading truck that is still effectively being looked after by a

:24:59.:25:02.

human, there is still the concern, with automated technology, that the

:25:03.:25:07.

driver himself might be a little bit complacent. 98% of everything we

:25:08.:25:11.

have, eat and consume, comes on the back avail or you. Brett's Supply

:25:12.:25:15.

chain is vital to the economy. Also vital to that economy are the

:25:16.:25:21.

drivers who drive the trucks. The job doesn't just begin and end with

:25:22.:25:25.

driving, they also have all of these other duties to do with unloading,

:25:26.:25:27.

form filling and so on. It's not only lorry drivers that

:25:28.:25:35.

could be on the road to nowhere if the machines take over. Mind if I

:25:36.:25:43.

hop in and talk about driverless cabs? They don't have the knowledge

:25:44.:25:46.

that you have with a human, you know? Some people don't like to

:25:47.:25:51.

talk, some people do, they like to know the history of London and the

:25:52.:25:55.

UK. They like to know what football team is winning or losing. They want

:25:56.:25:59.

to know where they can get a pint of milk from. Lorry drivers of Britain,

:26:00.:26:08.

we salute you. After all those years of not nodding off at the wheel,

:26:09.:26:11.

computers mean you cannot last get 40 winks -- can at last get 40

:26:12.:26:16.

winks. So, to the battle of the sexes -

:26:17.:26:18.

it's a subject many enjoy Well, researchers at the University

:26:19.:26:21.

of British Columbia in Canada say that men may be physically

:26:22.:26:28.

bigger and more powerful - Specifically, their study found

:26:29.:26:31.

that the female of the species is less physically exhausted

:26:32.:26:37.

after repetitive gruelling tasks and so naturally better

:26:38.:26:40.

at endurance events, to such an extent that they

:26:41.:26:42.

could soon regularly Here's one example of extreme female

:26:43.:26:44.

endurance achievements. Quoted in much of the reporting

:26:45.:26:54.

of this study today is that of cyclist Lael Wilcox,

:26:55.:26:58.

who stunned her male competition last year to become the first woman

:26:59.:27:01.

to win the 4,300 mile Trans Am She joins us now via

:27:02.:27:04.

Skype from Alaska. she's a sports nutritionist

:27:05.:27:14.

and performance coach who has worked She has also run ultra-marathons

:27:15.:27:19.

and joins us from Bristol. Lael, Renee, welcome to you both.

:27:20.:27:36.

This study, it says because of women's abilities to do frequent,

:27:37.:27:41.

repetitive movements for longer, it shows we have more endurance. Does

:27:42.:27:46.

this surprise you? No, not at all. The style of racing that I do is

:27:47.:27:51.

ultra-distance. It takes about a couple of weeks to complete the

:27:52.:27:56.

race. It is really all about recovery. In terms of recovery, is

:27:57.:28:01.

that just being sensible, psychological, just the fact that

:28:02.:28:05.

physically women are able to recover better? For me, it is really

:28:06.:28:10.

physical. Day after day, I feel pretty good. Usually during these

:28:11.:28:15.

races I sleep for four five hours, and I wake up the next day post I am

:28:16.:28:19.

in some pain, but able to continue. I think it is pretty physical. In

:28:20.:28:26.

your races, have you beaten men? Yes, last summer I beat the entire

:28:27.:28:31.

field. I finished in 18 days. I caught the first placed man in the

:28:32.:28:41.

final night. Renee, do you think the fastest woman in the world, talking

:28:42.:28:46.

ultra marathons, could be a woman? Without a doubt. I think this study

:28:47.:28:52.

is great in terms of bringing to light some of the things we have

:28:53.:28:54.

already known for a while, that women are better suited to

:28:55.:29:01.

ultra-distance events. A lot of that seems to be related to hormonal and

:29:02.:29:09.

biochemical processes in our body. I think it is great that we are

:29:10.:29:13.

getting more investigations into this particular area. How do you

:29:14.:29:18.

explain, Renee, this statistic, which amazed us in the office. Paula

:29:19.:29:24.

Radcliffe's a world marathon time is two hours 15.25, set in the London

:29:25.:29:29.

Marathon. It is 30 minutes faster than the women's record in the

:29:30.:29:33.

mid-70s. If you look at the similar data over men's Times, the

:29:34.:29:40.

improvement is only five minutes. One of the things we need more

:29:41.:29:47.

research into, one of the things that is clear is that female

:29:48.:29:51.

physiology is to these events. The studies that have been done, it's

:29:52.:29:56.

shown that women fare better in events that are 26.2 miles and

:29:57.:30:00.

above. I think a lot of that is related to the fact that we tend to

:30:01.:30:08.

burn fat a lot better than men. So, we naturally have a higher reserve.

:30:09.:30:13.

We have a bigger tank of fat stores, because women generally do have. On

:30:14.:30:17.

top of that, we have a better ability to use that for fuel.

:30:18.:30:21.

Particularly in these ultra events, we know that at some point you are

:30:22.:30:24.

going to run out of your carbohydrate stores. Even fold

:30:25.:30:32.

glycogen stores only last 60 to 90 minutes. You will need topping up.

:30:33.:30:36.

But even that will not be enough. Having the better efficiency of

:30:37.:30:42.

using fat for fuel is one of the critical things that makes us so

:30:43.:30:48.

good at running these longer events. Lael, the scientific evidence seems

:30:49.:30:51.

to point that women could have the upper hand when it comes to these

:30:52.:30:54.

ultra marathons, these longer events. Do you think there are any

:30:55.:30:57.

other sports where the barriers could be broken down, or the

:30:58.:31:01.

competitive edge could be broken down? I think there is definitely

:31:02.:31:04.

room for improvement in all sports for women. There is definitely a lot

:31:05.:31:09.

less encouragement. We are seeing a change, but there is still a lot of

:31:10.:31:16.

room for that to build. Speaking about results changing so

:31:17.:31:18.

dramatically from the 70s, there were very few women competing in the

:31:19.:31:22.

marathon in the 70s. Many more now, but I still feel like its many fewer

:31:23.:31:28.

than men competing. So, that will change and we will see improved

:31:29.:31:36.

results. Renee similar question, when we look at sports like

:31:37.:31:40.

football, where short bursts of energy are needed, or tennis, do

:31:41.:31:48.

women compare with men? Absolutely. I think a lot of the athletes I work

:31:49.:31:54.

with, there is no difference between men and women in how they train.

:31:55.:31:57.

They train the same, they put the same effort in, they get the same

:31:58.:32:04.

sports science support. I think football is an interesting one,

:32:05.:32:10.

because it is now emerging and the women's squads are getting a lot

:32:11.:32:14.

more support now. Prior to the last few years, this wasn't something

:32:15.:32:21.

that was actually very clear. I think with the right wraparound and

:32:22.:32:25.

the right direction, yes, we can definitely see a huge improvement in

:32:26.:32:32.

women making their ground. Renee, Lael, thank you very much for your

:32:33.:32:33.

time this evening. That's almost it for tonight,

:32:34.:32:36.

but before we go, you might Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson

:32:37.:32:41.

was in Libya this week, where he was welcomed by a Libyan

:32:42.:32:43.

military band giving a tuneful At least, we think it's

:32:44.:32:46.

the national anthem.

:32:47.:32:50.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS