30/08/2017 Newsnight

Quote of the day. Is it your intention to lead the Tory party

into the next general election? Yes I am here for the long term and it

is crucial, what me and my government are about is not just

delivering on Brexit, we are delivering a brighter future for the

United Kingdom. The Prime Minister is not a quitter, she says. The

conventional view is that it may not be up to her. Is it possible that

Theresa May could just turn around and carry on Prime

If she delivered Brexit and I think she will,

should you be outraged at a white Christian child being put into the

care of a Muslim family? This kind of small-minded kind

of hysterical reaction to you know, white English child going

to a British Muslim family. I mean, that it could be

so shocking and worthy of so many headlines and such

drama was disappointing. Also tonight: the week

that changed Britain. As the wreaths piled up

outside Kensington Palace the nation renowned for its stiff

upper lip was showing a decidedly Twenty years on, did Diana's

death tip us into a new Or were we right to become more

open about our feelings? Theresa May said something

that is generally considered Speaking to journalists

on her trip to Japan, she said she will be leading

the Tory Party into Now, that's not the conventional

view, which is that the Tories will dump her ignominiously just

as soon as she has taken all the blame for any U-turns

or Brexit chaos that'll be coming the Government's way,

thus leaving a clean But what a statement

for her to make. An attempt to stamp some

authority on the party, Is it conceivable that she will lead

the party for years to come? Or is it just an inevitable

political ritual that Prime Ministers have

to pretend as much? Here's our political

editor, Nick Watt. There must be something magical

about the Alpine air. An emboldened Theresa May has returned from her

summer holiday to reset the dial on her faltering premiership by making

plain, I am not a quitter. Do you intend to fight the next election?

Yes, there's been a lot of speculation about my future which

has no basis in it whatsoever. I am on this for the long-term. There is

real job to be done in the United Kingdom. It's about getting the

Brexit deal right, it's about building that special partnership

with the European Union for the future but it is also about leading

global Britain, trading around the world, yes, dealing with injustices

that remain inside the United Kingdom. The number of votes cast...

All a far cry from the diminished figure who emerged shell-shocked

from the disaster general election campaign. A Prime Minister who

briefly contemplated resigning. And struggled to connect after the

Grenfell Tower disaster. Theresa May's remarks today stand in

contrast to her sheepish declaration to Tory MPs in the early summer that

she would simply serve at their pleasure. Back then the Prime

Minister spoke of her duty to see out the Brexit negotiations, raising

expectations that she would leave shortly after the two-year deadline

in 2019. Now the Prime Minister wants to deliver not just Brexit but

also an ambitious agenda of domestic reforms. One leading Brexiteer

believes the Prime Minister 's holiday has worked wonders. I think

she has a new lease of life, walking in the hills of, or was it

Switzerland, I think she is doing remarkably well. And Peter Bone, who

was recently entertained to some drinks by the Prime Minister at

Chequers believes she is wholeheartedly committed to Brexit.

You know what these meetings are about, it's nice to see the Prime

Minister but I was amazed at the one thing that she was fired up about,

the one thing that will definitely happen is Brexit. Her eyes sparkled

at the thought of it and I thought, Wow, this is just what we need. If

there was anyone who had any doubt, they should have been about beating.

She's going to deliver us Brexit. If she were to deliver Brexit and I

think she will, she will be a national hero. And then why not

carry on? I have not heard a single person of all my backbench

colleagues, saying we have to get rid of the Prime Minister, we have

to get a new leader. It just isn't there. There is no plotting. By the

way I think if plotting was going on I would know about it. A former

adviser to David Cameron with some painful memories of his time in

Downing Street understands tactics in seeking to avoid a lame duck

premiership. No Prime Minister ever wants to get themselves into a

situation where they are setting a date for their departure. My old

boss David Cameron found that to his cost in 2015 when he said he would

not serve term. But Sir Craig Oliver wonders whether the mixed messages

from a Prime Minister who does not command a parliamentary majority

will work. The problem further is that she's basically had a narrative

in Westminster for the last once but you will go after the Brexit

negotiations. It is what has been assumed in the Tory party. Now a lot

of people are going to say, wait a minute, I thought you were going. I

thought we weren't going to be in a position where he would fight the

next election but Wilson is that they will say that that's going to

be a problem for them. The hills are alive with the sound of the Prime

Minister thinking carefully about her future. Theresa May hopes to

have cemented the position in No 10 but she leads a party with a

regicide or streak. Should we take this literally,

seriously? What is going on. What is her game.

A marked shift in tone and substance from the diminished Theresa May we

saw after the election. One thing that is clear is that the Prime

Minister wanted to use this trip to knock on the head or weekend report

that should be gone by August 20 19. Why? Because if you name your

departure date as Tony Blair and David Cameron can tell you, there is

a danger you become a lame duck. Whether that means that she really

will lead the Tory party into the 2022 election I am not too sure. And

I think what she was trying to do was chart this very difficult course

between not doing a Tony Blair and David Cameron, naming that state but

equally not getting into the Thatcher territory, who famously

said before the 1987 election that she would go on and on and on. It is

a perilous and difficult path and we saw that today. We haven't had this

out in public for long, she said it to journalists a bit earlier than it

was put into the public domain, how has it gone down. As we know the

Brexiteers, Peter Bone very happy if she takes the Tories into the 2022

election but one Grandi told me the party was agreed on two things, no

general election for the next five years and anything that causes that

is a bad thing and must be avoided but one that election comes, Theresa

May must not lead the Tory party. This person said to me, there is

disagreement about when she should go. One school of thought says, by

now, another says, wait until 2019, and that school of thought, the 2019

one, is in the ascendancy. Thank you, Nick.

A spotlight has been thrown onto the fostering system

in the last few days, with the case of a five-year-old

girl placed with Muslim foster parents.

The reporting has focused on the distress of the child

at being in an unfamiliar culture, with Arabic often spoken at home.

She has just been taken away from the foster parents and put

Obviously, we can't go into the details of the case,

but the judge overseeing it has made it quite clear the girl's transfer

to her grandmother was nothing to do with the media coverage.

And the judge pointed out that the girl's appointed

as to the child's welfare, and reported that the child

is settled and well cared for by the foster carer.

But the judge did say that when the girl was was originally

placed, no culturally matched foster family was available.

Are enough foster parents out there to offer a choice?

Children who need foster care are amongst the most vulnerable in

At a difficult and disruptive time, the priority is to find

consideration is given to a child's ethnicity,

Today, a judge has ordered an English speaking child placed

into foster care with a mixed-race family whose

reported use of Arabic upset her should live

The local authority involved, the London

Borough of Tower Hamlets, has insisted the girl's

English-speaking, but it has raised questions

around the challenges of

When you do make decisions about placing a child somewhere in

an emergency, if it's not the ideal placement,

you then have to decide kind of what's best really and there

are also issues about their background, their racial heritage,

So there will be a whole number of factors that you would need

to take into consideration when you're

And as I say, the geographical consideration will be quite a

significant one because if a child is being taken out of their family,

you don't want them to have to sort of leave

school and have to make new

friends on top of everything else that's happened to them.

The decision to place a child in foster

care is made by social workers and Children's

Judges can also intervene in the process if it is felt the

Time can be critical in making a decision,

along with the availability of carers.

There is always a shortage of foster carers.

Because, well, apart from anything else, like

everybody else, foster carers retire.

So we are always needing to replace foster carers who already in

the system, but we also have an increasing number

estimates would be that we probably need to recruit

foster carers for England and UK-wide.

To be able to kind of meet the demand that we have.

And to ensure that we have enough choice really so

that we can provide the best placement

possible for each child that is

There are nearly 53,000 foster carers in England of

Nine local authorities reported having no long-term

foster carers from ethnic minority groups.

And just over a fifth of foster children are from an ethnic

A shortage of ethnic minority foster carers means

white British families often look after children from different

It doesn't happen as much the other way round, but when

it does, it can be seen as controversial.

Well, I think it is more about self image.

Precious Williams spent much of her childhood with

I remember quite clearly in my situation, in my

childhood situation, eventually there came a time

when my mother and stepfather wanted me to come back

and live with them as planned, in a Nigerian household.

And my English family said, no, they are not

And I have actually seen the legal documents from back then

and the judge was very much, his decision was for me to stay with

He was very much saying I can benefit from the

English way of life and being in an English home.

And he was sort of saying basically, that is better

So, we are going back to the 1980s, that was the attitude then.

But unfortunately, this story, it is looking

like that is still the

attitude now, that if a child of colour

is in an English home, they

are being somehow, they are benefiting from that, but when you

And I also think if we are going to talk

about diversity, we need to

realise that diversity works all ways.

Everyone agrees that children should be matched with foster homes that

reflect their needs, faith and background,

there simply aren't always enough carers to make that possible.

The controversy over fostering started on Monday,

when the Times reported details of the Tower Hamlets case.

The newspaper put the story on its front page on

The journalist who wrote the stories is Andrew Norfolk,

A very good evening to you. A typically problem do you think, and

I use the word problem in inverted commas because some may not

recognise it as such. A typical dealer think it is? As we have just

heard, it is far more common in this country, due to a shortage of foster

carers from minority ethnic backgrounds for a non-white child to

be placed with white British foster carers. We understand that not only

in areas of London but also in other parts of the country there are

applications when a white British child is placed with non-white

carers. They tend to be older children. It's very unusual for a

child aged only five to be placed in that sort of environment. The

overwhelming majority of foster carers, whether they are Christian,

Muslim, Hindu, or of no faith whatsoever, are trained and go out

of their way to make sure that that child is made to feel as much as

possible at home and in possession of their own identity, and made to

feel that the world that they are entering is not one completely alien

them. Right. There's been some concern over the reporting. Come and

take a couple of aspects? Because when the judges statement was

released today, it did emerge that the appointed guardian had found no

problems and had spoken to the child in Private and two other people and

found that the child was well cared for. It wasn't mentioned in the

pieces, I wondered whether that should have been a material fact

incoming to the judgment. You are right and I was viewing the

journalist in court and we did reflect the child's guardian had no

concerns. We were reporting the concerns of another social services

employee from Tower Hamlets and she was reporting what she was observing

of the child, of that child's deep distress being returned to the home

where that child said she could not understand what they were saying

because they did not speak English. It is also worth pointing out that

this is a six-month placement we are looking at, she has been with two

different foster carers, four monster and two months, and the

concerns raised with the initial four months. We understand the

statement Tower Hamlets put out and the statement from the Guardian

reflects the most recent two months. If you said the Guardian had no

concerns, I am sorry, I did not see that. There was another aspect of

the coverage which was today, your piece implied that the judge has

somehow responded, the headline implied the judge had responded to

the media coverage. And to take on the child out of the family and put

her with her grandmother. When you read the judge's statement, that is

not what happened, it was nothing to do with the media coverage, the

council wanted her to go to the grandmother and that had always been

on the agenda and it was to do with waiting to see that the grandmother

herself was suitable to take her into care. I wonder whether that

headline and strapline were appropriate? Again, if anyone read

the article we published today, we quoted the judge as saying that the

media coverage was no factor in her decision. It was the case that the

girl's mother for some months had been asking for the child to be

placed in the care of her grandmother and removed from foster

care because, as the report reflected, there were concerns about

the suitability of that placement. The timing was a matter of

coincidence. We were not aware that hearing was coming up when we

started reporting this case. The judge did criticise Tower Hamlets

for delays which had prevented the decision being made sooner. But

certainly, all parties were agreeable to the transfer. Thank you

very much. Andy Elvin is the Chief Executive

of the Tact fostering And Neil Carmichael is the former

Tory MP who, as chair of the Education Select Committee,

had been leading an inquiry into foster care, before

he lost his seat in June. Good evening. When you read the

articles, did you have concerns about what they said about the state

of fostering in the UK, Neil? The enquiry you have referred to was

focusing on two things. One was making fostering more popular and

understanding training needed to be enhanced in certain places and

pointing out that being a foster carer is a very good thing. The

second thing we wanted to talk about was the need for children's services

to be more holistic in their thinking and more joined up in their

approach to making decisions you have been talking about. Those are

the two points that effectively underpinned this story in terms of

what we need to do next. Let's not talk about this particular story. In

general, do you think cultural, religious, ethnic fit matters? I

think what we have to remember is we live in a Liberal democracy. A mixed

cultural experiences part of our society. We do not want to get

bogged down in that territory. We want to focus on the outcome for the

child who is being cared for by foster carers. And also, the overall

ethos we are trying to establish here, which is that young people

need the proper support, as appropriate, as Children's Services

need to react in that way. And everyone would agree with that.

Well, everybody does, but we have to deliver it. Andy, do you think

cultural fit matters? How much does that matter? It can matter, it

depends on the case. There are many examples of excellent foster carers

looking after children not from their communities. There are lot of

white carers looking after young people from Afghanistan and Iraq and

Syria and doing a fantastic job the cultural capital the young people

need to respect their background is available in many places in the UK,

especially in places like London. It does not as the parents are

understanding of the child's background? You want a safe and

stable home to meet the needs of the child and that is with the most

important thing. In this case, one issue that shocked a lot of people

and it is disputed, talking hypothetically, was language, that

the foster parents apparently spoke Arabic a lot of the time and the

child did not. Whether or not that is that surely would not be a good

end? It would not, this case was a nonsense, it was a complete lie that

that was the case. To be a foster carer, you have to have a long

assessment and have good spoken and written English so in Bishoo spoken

in all foster homes around the UK and to suggest otherwise is

incorrect. Does it matter to you, is it any different whether it is a

Muslim child in a Christian family or Christian child in a Muslim

family, is it entirely symmetrical? Yes, I think so, we are a tolerant

and Liberal society and those principles have to be maintained.

Our attitude must be about the quality of the care and the nature

of the decisions around who is going to look after the child. That is the

important point. That is why we need to talk about Children's Services as

much as foster carers. Is the basic problem that we do not have enough

foster carers to make the choices? This was the case here, there was

not the cultural fit? There are not enough carers for teenagers and

sibling groups and we welcome more foster carers to apply and a lot of

people ruled themselves out, they've think they cannot do it because they

are single or the wrong religion or they are too old or too young or the

wrong sexuality. Foster carers from all backgrounds and they are

fantastic. They do with wonderful job in this country. We need to be

very grateful and we need more. We definitely need more. I was going to

say that. Before we let you go, we need to ask you about the top story

today, Theresa May going on and on until the next election. You lost

your seat at the last election and on a harsh day, you may say that is

her fault, maybe you blame yourself or her, what is the reaction to her

leading the party to the next election? We do not know when the

next election is going to be, we are in a minority situation and we have

difficult decisions to make over Brexit so this is a tabular time. I

suppose it is wise for the captain of the ship to point out she is

still holding on -- a turbulent time. Would you welcome her being

Greider? I thought she was the right choice in the beginning when she

first became Prime Minister. I was taken aback at the decision to have

a general election when she did. I was also surprised to read the

manifesto and I can see you smiling! But I am sure if she were to read us

to the next general election, she would focus on the economy first of

all. As a key issue. And I cannot imagine any mention of fox hunting!

Those lessons to learn. Sorry to digress, thank you, both.

Google is being accused today of trying to close down public

The story is that a think tank in the US, to which it has given

a lot of financial support, published a press release critical

of Google, and supporting the EU in fining it recently.

Then, mysteriously, the think tank took the offending press

release off its website, and exiled the team that had been

Had Google got cross at the criticism and threatened

The think tank categorically denies it was about Google

threatening anything, as does Google.

But the sacked Google critic Barry Lynn joins us

Good evening. Mr Lynn, what evidence to you have that your separation

from the think tank was to do with Google's intervention? There are a

number of points of evidence. For instance, the day that we put up a

notice, there was a conversation immediately after that with

Anne-Marie Slaughter, ahead of the think tank, in which she said, I got

off the phone with Google, with Eric Schmidt, and they are polling all of

their support including the support for your group. And there is other

evidence as well. This is a pattern. It has taken place over a period of

a couple of years. In fairness, there is a difference between trying

to censor public debate which is your charge, you said Google is

trying to censor journalists and researchers. There is a difference

between trying to censor you in deciding they do not want to pay

view, that is quite a big difference. Google does not pay for

me. They were paying for the think tank. They pay for parts of the

think tank, to which I am attached. My unit was independent. We raise

our money from foundations, from foundations that support public

interest work. That is what we have been doing for 15 years. So I have

been in New America for a long time and doing this work for a long time.

We have never had any problems. That is a very interesting point, you

have been doing it for a long time and Google Parliament they gush

apparently tolerating a campaign against Google dominated capitalism

or whatever you have been researching, but perhaps you cross

the line with the last press release which did not even have a report to

back it up, it was a reaction to the EU fining Google and sing great

news. It was ensuring we have political diversity. And in which

power is not concentrated. Our unit has focused on ensuring there is

going to be, that we are not going to see a massive concentration of

power of the political economy of the United States in the hands of

private individuals. That is what we have been doing for the union and

that is what we will continue to do. What, are, as far as to tell, but

what Google move on. Doing this 20 years ago, we will would probably be

campaigning about Microsoft. Ten years ago, it could have been

MySpace, the monopoly of that. These things do, and go? Well, they come

and go only if there is a trust enforcement. And one think you

mentioned, the Microsoft case was a case in which the Department of

Justice in the United States brought an action against Microsoft and

created a space for writing new companies including Google. OK,

thank you very much. We invited New America

and Google to join us tonight, As I've said, New America has denied

dropping him as a direct result In a statement, the organisation

said it had sacked Mr Lynn because he had shown

insufficient 'institutional Google issued its own statement,

in which it said the company supports hundreds of organisations

and doesn't agree with each of them all the time,

but that it respects Tonight marks exactly 20

years since the death A lot has already been said this

month in the build-up to the anniversary of that death,

including the reflections of the two Princes in an ITV

television documentary. Today, William and Harry

remembered their late mother with a visit to a memorial garden -

the White Garden - It was pretty wet out

there earlier today, but they also took a look

at the bouquets left at the gates of the palace,

a faint echo of the acres of flowers Those of us who are old enough

will never forget that week. We knew it was an

extraordinary moment. It felt like a turning point

in national character. We became more outwardly emotional,

and vocal about it, demanding Newsnight ran nothing

other than Diana coverage in the week after her death,

and even back then asked whether the effect would be

permanent or temporary. So what better time to re-visit

that question than now? We'll discuss it shortly, but first,

the journalist Mariella Frostrup has been looking back for us at how

the nation changed. The seeds of British reserves were

sown in the parlours and public schools of the Victorians, and

confirmed by our resilience and humour in the face of war. We were

stoic, our lips never trembled, we barely emotive and certainly never

wept. A young officer had his head blown right Ofcom he is as stiff as

cardboard! The stiff upper lip is the greatest act of spin in British

history. All it took was one young girl unwilling to toe the line to

see that facade crumbled. This is BBC radio news from London. The

death has been announced Diana Princess of Wales. In the days after

Diana died, Kensington Gardens became a pilgrimage site. When I

grudgingly agreed to visit on the Eve of a funeral, it was a warm's

summers night and the air was thick with wax and balloons, candlelit

vigils were taking place all over the lawns and an eerie silence was

broken only by gentle sobbing and the occasional whisper.

As the wreaths piled up outside Kensington Palace the nation

renowned for its stiff upper lip was showing a decidedly wobbly lower

one. Although Diana would never be Queen of England have fresh

portrayal of a modern royal and her open affection for her children and

subjects had crowned her the Queen of hearts. In death she was elevated

to martyrdom is an upsurge of hysterical grief paralysed the

nation. It could have come from the pages of a master like Marquez,

entitled perhaps, the state of sorrow, as the entire country

overnight... That was not a dry eye from lands end to John O'Groats as

millions of strangers mourned a woman who had become as much a part

of the nation's daily life as the tabloid papers that image had been a

staple of. That sense of loss took on enormous proportions and inland

in the park around her home became a magnet for the breast, the

distraught, and the downright curious. The levels of mourning

Nationwide took cynics like myself and allegedly the Queen by surprise.

In the moment and indeed with the benefit of hindsight, it is hard to

imagine the depths of devastation that Diana's death initiated and the

impact it had on her greater supporters, the people -- greatest

supporters. We felt like a better, more sympathetic nation for some

time afterwards, her empathy for the underdog, their embrace of victims

from everything from leprosy to AIDS, her understanding of human

need and the compassion she displayed for causes she cared about

seemed to thought us. Had allowed us to grieve for what we'd lost but

also to come together and embrace the sense of unity have abandoned

during the seismic ruptures of the Thatcher revolution. After decades

of the iron Lady and her followers, the sustaining notion of community,

we were ready to draw together around a sad figure of this lonely,

imperfect one man, and the tangible tragedy of her short life. She

became a symbol of possibility won her public battle with the

centuries-old monarchy out of touch with the nation was won in death.

Her greatest triumph may be yet to come as her soul baring adult boys

with their eagerness to be seen as down-to-earth expose the fallibility

of hereditary elevation. So many hopes and dreams died with Diana,

and so many more were born. It was impossible to see the epidemic of

sadness provoked as simply the direct result of her death. The

connection to this Queen of hearts for some people felt intensely

personal yet for many others it was simply a conduit connecting their

losses to the national state of sorrow. So what did we learn.

Probably nothing we did not know already. There was elevated to great

heights haven't even mightier way to fall and even princesses are mortal.

But there is no such thing as a fairy tale ending and that

expressing your emotions can be cut Karthik even if you don't know what

you are grieving for. -- cathartic. The Princess, from the moment she

rode the carriage down the mole on her wedding day was emblematic of so

much more than that fleeting romance. She was the underdog who

revolutionised the monarchy, obliterated our national reputation

for maintaining a stiff upper lip and took celebrity soul baring too

dizzying new heights. Her legacy remains in the fervour with which

she is remembered but despite the god like status thrust on her young

shoulders, Diana revealed herself to be mortal, flawed and eager to be

loved. Just like the rest of us. Mariella Frostrup.

Lots of different things are bound up in the claim

that we changed that week - more emotional,

perhaps less deferential, sometimes less rational.

Isabel Hilton wrote at the time that she felt alienated by the outpouring

of emotion, Paris was nine years old when the Princess died and became an

adult in the post nine to 97 Britain. Isabel, what are your

memories of that week. You say you did not shed any tears. Clearly the

event was a shock but I found it became oppressive very quickly. We

happened to be driving, the day that her death was announced, from

Scotland to London, a long drive, listening to Radio 4. By the time we

got to London I thought if one more person was going to be asked how

they felt I might scream! What were they supposed to say, I feel great,

how do you feel? It was a meaningless enactment of emotion

rather than real emotion. Paris, how much do you remember of it. I do

remember because I was on holiday with my grandma the night she died

and the show had been cancelled just because Princess Diana had died and

we were really shocked, looking back now I just think, why did the show

have to be cancelled. It was a bit over the top. I remember people

being really upset, my mum being really upset, I remember going to

some kind of gathering in Nottingham city centre, and just this great

sadness being around, really. You have spent a lot of your life

fighting against rigid straitjacket that society puts on you. Was she

too prior to your era to become someone who was an inspiration, an

icon, a role model? No, I'm as addicted as anyone looking at the

old panorama interviews on YouTube, clearly there was something about

that resonated with people. An adult, now, I have been dismissed as

the crazy ex-girlfriend before, and I can see why so many women found

something to identify with, she's almost archetypal neurotic woman who

had been wronged by the ultimate patriarchal institution, the Royal

family. It wasn't just about her as an individual. Obviously she was a

special person but thing she tapped into our feelings about the way

young women are treated in this society and it's not always fairly.

Isabel, did it change bit for good, did we become more sentimental? I

look at my Facebook timeline, it is full of sentimental slush most of

the time. Does that go back to Diana or is it different. I think I am as

the cause of change is overstated. I do think that the stiff upper lip

myth, historically, it was pretty short lived. It comes into being in

the late 19th century because we needed a stiff upper lip to run an

empire. You don't want your district officer in Peshawar in motoring. We

want him to be hanging in there. -- not in motoring. Back in the 18th

century the British were promoting all over the place. Really? This is

not new now? They were not known as Chile, there were known as morose,

violent, grumpy but certainly not emotionally buttoned up. Things like

The Man Of Feeling there is weeping in every page of this 18th-century

novel and people loved it. By mid-Victorian times people find it

hard to deal with. I think we are reverting, these things were always

there. Paris, has it gone a bit far, do you find life sentimental now? I

can't compel it to the pre-Diana world but remember there was this,

there was Geri Halliwell leaving the Spice Girls, Jack dying in Titanic,

a lot of dramatic stuff when I was a kid! People would make a distinction

between those things. Social media is all about feeling, isn't it. And

there's not enough of judge this and think about it, it is all about feel

it. I guess so. It is interesting what we label as emotional. We don't

generally labelled Donald Trump as emotional and yet anger is an

emotion. Women's emotions get labelled emotional but if a man is

violent and fights we don't say, he's emotional. There has always

been emotion expressed in society, it is which ones with police. I

think it's good that we have a more open society, society can feel cold

and uncaring for lots of people and if anything I think we need more

caring because she wasn't just expressing pure emotion, Diana's

whole thing was empathy and connecting with other peoples

emotions. I think we need more of to be honest. How far do you agree with

what you have just heard? At the empathy is very important but it is,

of whom do we demand emotional display. That is the tricky bit.

Because actually I don't want, if people are in extreme situations

they don't want their first responders or policeman to be

emotional, they want them to be cool. Theresa May goes to Grenfell

Tower... Shouldn't empathise. -- she didn't empathise. She didn't weep,

she didn't make the victims, she didn't empathise and at moments of

national trauma like that you want the leader to show that they

empathise, not that they are weak themselves. I don't want judges and

politicians to weep. I want them to mediate between different emotions

and make rational and effective decisions. I don't want them crying.

Seuk-hyun Baek I think one leader, Jeremy Corbyn, was very empathic.

Being empathetic is fine. And we have drawn that distinction. Thank

you both very much. And before we go, there's just time

to bring you the latest instalment in our series of Proms

performances playouts. Tonight, the Elias String Quartet,

who will be playing Schubert's String Quartet

at Cadogan Hall on For now though, they'll be

leaving us with an extract of Mendelssohn's String Quartet No.2

in A minor.