30/08/2017 Newsnight


Could Theresa May stay on until the next election? There is also a look at foster care, whether Google is silencing its critics and the 20th anniversary of Princess Diana's death.

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Quote of the day. Is it your intention to lead the Tory party


into the next general election? Yes I am here for the long term and it


is crucial, what me and my government are about is not just


delivering on Brexit, we are delivering a brighter future for the


United Kingdom. The Prime Minister is not a quitter, she says. The


conventional view is that it may not be up to her. Is it possible that


Theresa May could just turn around and carry on Prime


If she delivered Brexit and I think she will,


should you be outraged at a white Christian child being put into the


care of a Muslim family? This kind of small-minded kind


of hysterical reaction to you know, white English child going


to a British Muslim family. I mean, that it could be


so shocking and worthy of so many headlines and such


drama was disappointing. Also tonight: the week


that changed Britain. As the wreaths piled up


outside Kensington Palace the nation renowned for its stiff


upper lip was showing a decidedly Twenty years on, did Diana's


death tip us into a new Or were we right to become more


open about our feelings? Theresa May said something


that is generally considered Speaking to journalists


on her trip to Japan, she said she will be leading


the Tory Party into Now, that's not the conventional


view, which is that the Tories will dump her ignominiously just


as soon as she has taken all the blame for any U-turns


or Brexit chaos that'll be coming the Government's way,


thus leaving a clean But what a statement


for her to make. An attempt to stamp some


authority on the party, Is it conceivable that she will lead


the party for years to come? Or is it just an inevitable


political ritual that Prime Ministers have


to pretend as much? Here's our political


editor, Nick Watt. There must be something magical


about the Alpine air. An emboldened Theresa May has returned from her


summer holiday to reset the dial on her faltering premiership by making


plain, I am not a quitter. Do you intend to fight the next election?


Yes, there's been a lot of speculation about my future which


has no basis in it whatsoever. I am on this for the long-term. There is


real job to be done in the United Kingdom. It's about getting the


Brexit deal right, it's about building that special partnership


with the European Union for the future but it is also about leading


global Britain, trading around the world, yes, dealing with injustices


that remain inside the United Kingdom. The number of votes cast...


All a far cry from the diminished figure who emerged shell-shocked


from the disaster general election campaign. A Prime Minister who


briefly contemplated resigning. And struggled to connect after the


Grenfell Tower disaster. Theresa May's remarks today stand in


contrast to her sheepish declaration to Tory MPs in the early summer that


she would simply serve at their pleasure. Back then the Prime


Minister spoke of her duty to see out the Brexit negotiations, raising


expectations that she would leave shortly after the two-year deadline


in 2019. Now the Prime Minister wants to deliver not just Brexit but


also an ambitious agenda of domestic reforms. One leading Brexiteer


believes the Prime Minister 's holiday has worked wonders. I think


she has a new lease of life, walking in the hills of, or was it


Switzerland, I think she is doing remarkably well. And Peter Bone, who


was recently entertained to some drinks by the Prime Minister at


Chequers believes she is wholeheartedly committed to Brexit.


You know what these meetings are about, it's nice to see the Prime


Minister but I was amazed at the one thing that she was fired up about,


the one thing that will definitely happen is Brexit. Her eyes sparkled


at the thought of it and I thought, Wow, this is just what we need. If


there was anyone who had any doubt, they should have been about beating.


She's going to deliver us Brexit. If she were to deliver Brexit and I


think she will, she will be a national hero. And then why not


carry on? I have not heard a single person of all my backbench


colleagues, saying we have to get rid of the Prime Minister, we have


to get a new leader. It just isn't there. There is no plotting. By the


way I think if plotting was going on I would know about it. A former


adviser to David Cameron with some painful memories of his time in


Downing Street understands tactics in seeking to avoid a lame duck


premiership. No Prime Minister ever wants to get themselves into a


situation where they are setting a date for their departure. My old


boss David Cameron found that to his cost in 2015 when he said he would


not serve term. But Sir Craig Oliver wonders whether the mixed messages


from a Prime Minister who does not command a parliamentary majority


will work. The problem further is that she's basically had a narrative


in Westminster for the last once but you will go after the Brexit


negotiations. It is what has been assumed in the Tory party. Now a lot


of people are going to say, wait a minute, I thought you were going. I


thought we weren't going to be in a position where he would fight the


next election but Wilson is that they will say that that's going to


be a problem for them. The hills are alive with the sound of the Prime


Minister thinking carefully about her future. Theresa May hopes to


have cemented the position in No 10 but she leads a party with a


regicide or streak. Should we take this literally,


seriously? What is going on. What is her game.


A marked shift in tone and substance from the diminished Theresa May we


saw after the election. One thing that is clear is that the Prime


Minister wanted to use this trip to knock on the head or weekend report


that should be gone by August 20 19. Why? Because if you name your


departure date as Tony Blair and David Cameron can tell you, there is


a danger you become a lame duck. Whether that means that she really


will lead the Tory party into the 2022 election I am not too sure. And


I think what she was trying to do was chart this very difficult course


between not doing a Tony Blair and David Cameron, naming that state but


equally not getting into the Thatcher territory, who famously


said before the 1987 election that she would go on and on and on. It is


a perilous and difficult path and we saw that today. We haven't had this


out in public for long, she said it to journalists a bit earlier than it


was put into the public domain, how has it gone down. As we know the


Brexiteers, Peter Bone very happy if she takes the Tories into the 2022


election but one Grandi told me the party was agreed on two things, no


general election for the next five years and anything that causes that


is a bad thing and must be avoided but one that election comes, Theresa


May must not lead the Tory party. This person said to me, there is


disagreement about when she should go. One school of thought says, by


now, another says, wait until 2019, and that school of thought, the 2019


one, is in the ascendancy. Thank you, Nick.


A spotlight has been thrown onto the fostering system


in the last few days, with the case of a five-year-old


girl placed with Muslim foster parents.


The reporting has focused on the distress of the child


at being in an unfamiliar culture, with Arabic often spoken at home.


She has just been taken away from the foster parents and put


Obviously, we can't go into the details of the case,


but the judge overseeing it has made it quite clear the girl's transfer


to her grandmother was nothing to do with the media coverage.


And the judge pointed out that the girl's appointed


as to the child's welfare, and reported that the child


is settled and well cared for by the foster carer.


But the judge did say that when the girl was was originally


placed, no culturally matched foster family was available.


Are enough foster parents out there to offer a choice?


Children who need foster care are amongst the most vulnerable in


At a difficult and disruptive time, the priority is to find


consideration is given to a child's ethnicity,


Today, a judge has ordered an English speaking child placed


into foster care with a mixed-race family whose


reported use of Arabic upset her should live


The local authority involved, the London


Borough of Tower Hamlets, has insisted the girl's


English-speaking, but it has raised questions


around the challenges of


When you do make decisions about placing a child somewhere in


an emergency, if it's not the ideal placement,


you then have to decide kind of what's best really and there


are also issues about their background, their racial heritage,


So there will be a whole number of factors that you would need


to take into consideration when you're


And as I say, the geographical consideration will be quite a


significant one because if a child is being taken out of their family,


you don't want them to have to sort of leave


school and have to make new


friends on top of everything else that's happened to them.


The decision to place a child in foster


care is made by social workers and Children's


Judges can also intervene in the process if it is felt the


Time can be critical in making a decision,


along with the availability of carers.


There is always a shortage of foster carers.


Because, well, apart from anything else, like


everybody else, foster carers retire.


So we are always needing to replace foster carers who already in


the system, but we also have an increasing number


estimates would be that we probably need to recruit


foster carers for England and UK-wide.


To be able to kind of meet the demand that we have.


And to ensure that we have enough choice really so


that we can provide the best placement


possible for each child that is


There are nearly 53,000 foster carers in England of


Nine local authorities reported having no long-term


foster carers from ethnic minority groups.


And just over a fifth of foster children are from an ethnic


A shortage of ethnic minority foster carers means


white British families often look after children from different


It doesn't happen as much the other way round, but when


it does, it can be seen as controversial.


Well, I think it is more about self image.


Precious Williams spent much of her childhood with


I remember quite clearly in my situation, in my


childhood situation, eventually there came a time


when my mother and stepfather wanted me to come back


and live with them as planned, in a Nigerian household.


And my English family said, no, they are not


And I have actually seen the legal documents from back then


and the judge was very much, his decision was for me to stay with


He was very much saying I can benefit from the


English way of life and being in an English home.


And he was sort of saying basically, that is better


So, we are going back to the 1980s, that was the attitude then.


But unfortunately, this story, it is looking


like that is still the


attitude now, that if a child of colour


is in an English home, they


are being somehow, they are benefiting from that, but when you


And I also think if we are going to talk


about diversity, we need to


realise that diversity works all ways.


Everyone agrees that children should be matched with foster homes that


reflect their needs, faith and background,


there simply aren't always enough carers to make that possible.


The controversy over fostering started on Monday,


when the Times reported details of the Tower Hamlets case.


The newspaper put the story on its front page on


The journalist who wrote the stories is Andrew Norfolk,


A very good evening to you. A typically problem do you think, and


I use the word problem in inverted commas because some may not


recognise it as such. A typical dealer think it is? As we have just


heard, it is far more common in this country, due to a shortage of foster


carers from minority ethnic backgrounds for a non-white child to


be placed with white British foster carers. We understand that not only


in areas of London but also in other parts of the country there are


applications when a white British child is placed with non-white


carers. They tend to be older children. It's very unusual for a


child aged only five to be placed in that sort of environment. The


overwhelming majority of foster carers, whether they are Christian,


Muslim, Hindu, or of no faith whatsoever, are trained and go out


of their way to make sure that that child is made to feel as much as


possible at home and in possession of their own identity, and made to


feel that the world that they are entering is not one completely alien


them. Right. There's been some concern over the reporting. Come and


take a couple of aspects? Because when the judges statement was


released today, it did emerge that the appointed guardian had found no


problems and had spoken to the child in Private and two other people and


found that the child was well cared for. It wasn't mentioned in the


pieces, I wondered whether that should have been a material fact


incoming to the judgment. You are right and I was viewing the


journalist in court and we did reflect the child's guardian had no


concerns. We were reporting the concerns of another social services


employee from Tower Hamlets and she was reporting what she was observing


of the child, of that child's deep distress being returned to the home


where that child said she could not understand what they were saying


because they did not speak English. It is also worth pointing out that


this is a six-month placement we are looking at, she has been with two


different foster carers, four monster and two months, and the


concerns raised with the initial four months. We understand the


statement Tower Hamlets put out and the statement from the Guardian


reflects the most recent two months. If you said the Guardian had no


concerns, I am sorry, I did not see that. There was another aspect of


the coverage which was today, your piece implied that the judge has


somehow responded, the headline implied the judge had responded to


the media coverage. And to take on the child out of the family and put


her with her grandmother. When you read the judge's statement, that is


not what happened, it was nothing to do with the media coverage, the


council wanted her to go to the grandmother and that had always been


on the agenda and it was to do with waiting to see that the grandmother


herself was suitable to take her into care. I wonder whether that


headline and strapline were appropriate? Again, if anyone read


the article we published today, we quoted the judge as saying that the


media coverage was no factor in her decision. It was the case that the


girl's mother for some months had been asking for the child to be


placed in the care of her grandmother and removed from foster


care because, as the report reflected, there were concerns about


the suitability of that placement. The timing was a matter of


coincidence. We were not aware that hearing was coming up when we


started reporting this case. The judge did criticise Tower Hamlets


for delays which had prevented the decision being made sooner. But


certainly, all parties were agreeable to the transfer. Thank you


very much. Andy Elvin is the Chief Executive


of the Tact fostering And Neil Carmichael is the former


Tory MP who, as chair of the Education Select Committee,


had been leading an inquiry into foster care, before


he lost his seat in June. Good evening. When you read the


articles, did you have concerns about what they said about the state


of fostering in the UK, Neil? The enquiry you have referred to was


focusing on two things. One was making fostering more popular and


understanding training needed to be enhanced in certain places and


pointing out that being a foster carer is a very good thing. The


second thing we wanted to talk about was the need for children's services


to be more holistic in their thinking and more joined up in their


approach to making decisions you have been talking about. Those are


the two points that effectively underpinned this story in terms of


what we need to do next. Let's not talk about this particular story. In


general, do you think cultural, religious, ethnic fit matters? I


think what we have to remember is we live in a Liberal democracy. A mixed


cultural experiences part of our society. We do not want to get


bogged down in that territory. We want to focus on the outcome for the


child who is being cared for by foster carers. And also, the overall


ethos we are trying to establish here, which is that young people


need the proper support, as appropriate, as Children's Services


need to react in that way. And everyone would agree with that.


Well, everybody does, but we have to deliver it. Andy, do you think


cultural fit matters? How much does that matter? It can matter, it


depends on the case. There are many examples of excellent foster carers


looking after children not from their communities. There are lot of


white carers looking after young people from Afghanistan and Iraq and


Syria and doing a fantastic job the cultural capital the young people


need to respect their background is available in many places in the UK,


especially in places like London. It does not as the parents are


understanding of the child's background? You want a safe and


stable home to meet the needs of the child and that is with the most


important thing. In this case, one issue that shocked a lot of people


and it is disputed, talking hypothetically, was language, that


the foster parents apparently spoke Arabic a lot of the time and the


child did not. Whether or not that is that surely would not be a good


end? It would not, this case was a nonsense, it was a complete lie that


that was the case. To be a foster carer, you have to have a long


assessment and have good spoken and written English so in Bishoo spoken


in all foster homes around the UK and to suggest otherwise is


incorrect. Does it matter to you, is it any different whether it is a


Muslim child in a Christian family or Christian child in a Muslim


family, is it entirely symmetrical? Yes, I think so, we are a tolerant


and Liberal society and those principles have to be maintained.


Our attitude must be about the quality of the care and the nature


of the decisions around who is going to look after the child. That is the


important point. That is why we need to talk about Children's Services as


much as foster carers. Is the basic problem that we do not have enough


foster carers to make the choices? This was the case here, there was


not the cultural fit? There are not enough carers for teenagers and


sibling groups and we welcome more foster carers to apply and a lot of


people ruled themselves out, they've think they cannot do it because they


are single or the wrong religion or they are too old or too young or the


wrong sexuality. Foster carers from all backgrounds and they are


fantastic. They do with wonderful job in this country. We need to be


very grateful and we need more. We definitely need more. I was going to


say that. Before we let you go, we need to ask you about the top story


today, Theresa May going on and on until the next election. You lost


your seat at the last election and on a harsh day, you may say that is


her fault, maybe you blame yourself or her, what is the reaction to her


leading the party to the next election? We do not know when the


next election is going to be, we are in a minority situation and we have


difficult decisions to make over Brexit so this is a tabular time. I


suppose it is wise for the captain of the ship to point out she is


still holding on -- a turbulent time. Would you welcome her being


Greider? I thought she was the right choice in the beginning when she


first became Prime Minister. I was taken aback at the decision to have


a general election when she did. I was also surprised to read the


manifesto and I can see you smiling! But I am sure if she were to read us


to the next general election, she would focus on the economy first of


all. As a key issue. And I cannot imagine any mention of fox hunting!


Those lessons to learn. Sorry to digress, thank you, both.


Google is being accused today of trying to close down public


The story is that a think tank in the US, to which it has given


a lot of financial support, published a press release critical


of Google, and supporting the EU in fining it recently.


Then, mysteriously, the think tank took the offending press


release off its website, and exiled the team that had been


Had Google got cross at the criticism and threatened


The think tank categorically denies it was about Google


threatening anything, as does Google.


But the sacked Google critic Barry Lynn joins us


Good evening. Mr Lynn, what evidence to you have that your separation


from the think tank was to do with Google's intervention? There are a


number of points of evidence. For instance, the day that we put up a


notice, there was a conversation immediately after that with


Anne-Marie Slaughter, ahead of the think tank, in which she said, I got


off the phone with Google, with Eric Schmidt, and they are polling all of


their support including the support for your group. And there is other


evidence as well. This is a pattern. It has taken place over a period of


a couple of years. In fairness, there is a difference between trying


to censor public debate which is your charge, you said Google is


trying to censor journalists and researchers. There is a difference


between trying to censor you in deciding they do not want to pay


view, that is quite a big difference. Google does not pay for


me. They were paying for the think tank. They pay for parts of the


think tank, to which I am attached. My unit was independent. We raise


our money from foundations, from foundations that support public


interest work. That is what we have been doing for 15 years. So I have


been in New America for a long time and doing this work for a long time.


We have never had any problems. That is a very interesting point, you


have been doing it for a long time and Google Parliament they gush


apparently tolerating a campaign against Google dominated capitalism


or whatever you have been researching, but perhaps you cross


the line with the last press release which did not even have a report to


back it up, it was a reaction to the EU fining Google and sing great


news. It was ensuring we have political diversity. And in which


power is not concentrated. Our unit has focused on ensuring there is


going to be, that we are not going to see a massive concentration of


power of the political economy of the United States in the hands of


private individuals. That is what we have been doing for the union and


that is what we will continue to do. What, are, as far as to tell, but


what Google move on. Doing this 20 years ago, we will would probably be


campaigning about Microsoft. Ten years ago, it could have been


MySpace, the monopoly of that. These things do, and go? Well, they come


and go only if there is a trust enforcement. And one think you


mentioned, the Microsoft case was a case in which the Department of


Justice in the United States brought an action against Microsoft and


created a space for writing new companies including Google. OK,


thank you very much. We invited New America


and Google to join us tonight, As I've said, New America has denied


dropping him as a direct result In a statement, the organisation


said it had sacked Mr Lynn because he had shown


insufficient 'institutional Google issued its own statement,


in which it said the company supports hundreds of organisations


and doesn't agree with each of them all the time,


but that it respects Tonight marks exactly 20


years since the death A lot has already been said this


month in the build-up to the anniversary of that death,


including the reflections of the two Princes in an ITV


television documentary. Today, William and Harry


remembered their late mother with a visit to a memorial garden -


the White Garden - It was pretty wet out


there earlier today, but they also took a look


at the bouquets left at the gates of the palace,


a faint echo of the acres of flowers Those of us who are old enough


will never forget that week. We knew it was an


extraordinary moment. It felt like a turning point


in national character. We became more outwardly emotional,


and vocal about it, demanding Newsnight ran nothing


other than Diana coverage in the week after her death,


and even back then asked whether the effect would be


permanent or temporary. So what better time to re-visit


that question than now? We'll discuss it shortly, but first,


the journalist Mariella Frostrup has been looking back for us at how


the nation changed. The seeds of British reserves were


sown in the parlours and public schools of the Victorians, and


confirmed by our resilience and humour in the face of war. We were


stoic, our lips never trembled, we barely emotive and certainly never


wept. A young officer had his head blown right Ofcom he is as stiff as


cardboard! The stiff upper lip is the greatest act of spin in British


history. All it took was one young girl unwilling to toe the line to


see that facade crumbled. This is BBC radio news from London. The


death has been announced Diana Princess of Wales. In the days after


Diana died, Kensington Gardens became a pilgrimage site. When I


grudgingly agreed to visit on the Eve of a funeral, it was a warm's


summers night and the air was thick with wax and balloons, candlelit


vigils were taking place all over the lawns and an eerie silence was


broken only by gentle sobbing and the occasional whisper.


As the wreaths piled up outside Kensington Palace the nation


renowned for its stiff upper lip was showing a decidedly wobbly lower


one. Although Diana would never be Queen of England have fresh


portrayal of a modern royal and her open affection for her children and


subjects had crowned her the Queen of hearts. In death she was elevated


to martyrdom is an upsurge of hysterical grief paralysed the


nation. It could have come from the pages of a master like Marquez,


entitled perhaps, the state of sorrow, as the entire country


overnight... That was not a dry eye from lands end to John O'Groats as


millions of strangers mourned a woman who had become as much a part


of the nation's daily life as the tabloid papers that image had been a


staple of. That sense of loss took on enormous proportions and inland


in the park around her home became a magnet for the breast, the


distraught, and the downright curious. The levels of mourning


Nationwide took cynics like myself and allegedly the Queen by surprise.


In the moment and indeed with the benefit of hindsight, it is hard to


imagine the depths of devastation that Diana's death initiated and the


impact it had on her greater supporters, the people -- greatest


supporters. We felt like a better, more sympathetic nation for some


time afterwards, her empathy for the underdog, their embrace of victims


from everything from leprosy to AIDS, her understanding of human


need and the compassion she displayed for causes she cared about


seemed to thought us. Had allowed us to grieve for what we'd lost but


also to come together and embrace the sense of unity have abandoned


during the seismic ruptures of the Thatcher revolution. After decades


of the iron Lady and her followers, the sustaining notion of community,


we were ready to draw together around a sad figure of this lonely,


imperfect one man, and the tangible tragedy of her short life. She


became a symbol of possibility won her public battle with the


centuries-old monarchy out of touch with the nation was won in death.


Her greatest triumph may be yet to come as her soul baring adult boys


with their eagerness to be seen as down-to-earth expose the fallibility


of hereditary elevation. So many hopes and dreams died with Diana,


and so many more were born. It was impossible to see the epidemic of


sadness provoked as simply the direct result of her death. The


connection to this Queen of hearts for some people felt intensely


personal yet for many others it was simply a conduit connecting their


losses to the national state of sorrow. So what did we learn.


Probably nothing we did not know already. There was elevated to great


heights haven't even mightier way to fall and even princesses are mortal.


But there is no such thing as a fairy tale ending and that


expressing your emotions can be cut Karthik even if you don't know what


you are grieving for. -- cathartic. The Princess, from the moment she


rode the carriage down the mole on her wedding day was emblematic of so


much more than that fleeting romance. She was the underdog who


revolutionised the monarchy, obliterated our national reputation


for maintaining a stiff upper lip and took celebrity soul baring too


dizzying new heights. Her legacy remains in the fervour with which


she is remembered but despite the god like status thrust on her young


shoulders, Diana revealed herself to be mortal, flawed and eager to be


loved. Just like the rest of us. Mariella Frostrup.


Lots of different things are bound up in the claim


that we changed that week - more emotional,


perhaps less deferential, sometimes less rational.


Isabel Hilton wrote at the time that she felt alienated by the outpouring


of emotion, Paris was nine years old when the Princess died and became an


adult in the post nine to 97 Britain. Isabel, what are your


memories of that week. You say you did not shed any tears. Clearly the


event was a shock but I found it became oppressive very quickly. We


happened to be driving, the day that her death was announced, from


Scotland to London, a long drive, listening to Radio 4. By the time we


got to London I thought if one more person was going to be asked how


they felt I might scream! What were they supposed to say, I feel great,


how do you feel? It was a meaningless enactment of emotion


rather than real emotion. Paris, how much do you remember of it. I do


remember because I was on holiday with my grandma the night she died


and the show had been cancelled just because Princess Diana had died and


we were really shocked, looking back now I just think, why did the show


have to be cancelled. It was a bit over the top. I remember people


being really upset, my mum being really upset, I remember going to


some kind of gathering in Nottingham city centre, and just this great


sadness being around, really. You have spent a lot of your life


fighting against rigid straitjacket that society puts on you. Was she


too prior to your era to become someone who was an inspiration, an


icon, a role model? No, I'm as addicted as anyone looking at the


old panorama interviews on YouTube, clearly there was something about


that resonated with people. An adult, now, I have been dismissed as


the crazy ex-girlfriend before, and I can see why so many women found


something to identify with, she's almost archetypal neurotic woman who


had been wronged by the ultimate patriarchal institution, the Royal


family. It wasn't just about her as an individual. Obviously she was a


special person but thing she tapped into our feelings about the way


young women are treated in this society and it's not always fairly.


Isabel, did it change bit for good, did we become more sentimental? I


look at my Facebook timeline, it is full of sentimental slush most of


the time. Does that go back to Diana or is it different. I think I am as


the cause of change is overstated. I do think that the stiff upper lip


myth, historically, it was pretty short lived. It comes into being in


the late 19th century because we needed a stiff upper lip to run an


empire. You don't want your district officer in Peshawar in motoring. We


want him to be hanging in there. -- not in motoring. Back in the 18th


century the British were promoting all over the place. Really? This is


not new now? They were not known as Chile, there were known as morose,


violent, grumpy but certainly not emotionally buttoned up. Things like


The Man Of Feeling there is weeping in every page of this 18th-century


novel and people loved it. By mid-Victorian times people find it


hard to deal with. I think we are reverting, these things were always


there. Paris, has it gone a bit far, do you find life sentimental now? I


can't compel it to the pre-Diana world but remember there was this,


there was Geri Halliwell leaving the Spice Girls, Jack dying in Titanic,


a lot of dramatic stuff when I was a kid! People would make a distinction


between those things. Social media is all about feeling, isn't it. And


there's not enough of judge this and think about it, it is all about feel


it. I guess so. It is interesting what we label as emotional. We don't


generally labelled Donald Trump as emotional and yet anger is an


emotion. Women's emotions get labelled emotional but if a man is


violent and fights we don't say, he's emotional. There has always


been emotion expressed in society, it is which ones with police. I


think it's good that we have a more open society, society can feel cold


and uncaring for lots of people and if anything I think we need more


caring because she wasn't just expressing pure emotion, Diana's


whole thing was empathy and connecting with other peoples


emotions. I think we need more of to be honest. How far do you agree with


what you have just heard? At the empathy is very important but it is,


of whom do we demand emotional display. That is the tricky bit.


Because actually I don't want, if people are in extreme situations


they don't want their first responders or policeman to be


emotional, they want them to be cool. Theresa May goes to Grenfell


Tower... Shouldn't empathise. -- she didn't empathise. She didn't weep,


she didn't make the victims, she didn't empathise and at moments of


national trauma like that you want the leader to show that they


empathise, not that they are weak themselves. I don't want judges and


politicians to weep. I want them to mediate between different emotions


and make rational and effective decisions. I don't want them crying.


Seuk-hyun Baek I think one leader, Jeremy Corbyn, was very empathic.


Being empathetic is fine. And we have drawn that distinction. Thank


you both very much. And before we go, there's just time


to bring you the latest instalment in our series of Proms


performances playouts. Tonight, the Elias String Quartet,


who will be playing Schubert's String Quartet


at Cadogan Hall on For now though, they'll be


leaving us with an extract of Mendelssohn's String Quartet No.2


in A minor.