30/08/2017 Newsnight


30/08/2017

Could Theresa May stay on until the next election? There is also a look at foster care, whether Google is silencing its critics and the 20th anniversary of Princess Diana's death.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 30/08/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Quote of the day. Is it your intention to lead the Tory party

:00:10.:00:15.

into the next general election? Yes I am here for the long term and it

:00:16.:00:19.

is crucial, what me and my government are about is not just

:00:20.:00:24.

delivering on Brexit, we are delivering a brighter future for the

:00:25.:00:29.

United Kingdom. The Prime Minister is not a quitter, she says. The

:00:30.:00:32.

conventional view is that it may not be up to her. Is it possible that

:00:33.:00:39.

Theresa May could just turn around and carry on Prime

:00:40.:00:46.

If she delivered Brexit and I think she will,

:00:47.:00:48.

should you be outraged at a white Christian child being put into the

:00:49.:00:58.

care of a Muslim family? This kind of small-minded kind

:00:59.:01:00.

of hysterical reaction to you know, white English child going

:01:01.:01:03.

to a British Muslim family. I mean, that it could be

:01:04.:01:05.

so shocking and worthy of so many headlines and such

:01:06.:01:08.

drama was disappointing. Also tonight: the week

:01:09.:01:10.

that changed Britain. As the wreaths piled up

:01:11.:01:11.

outside Kensington Palace the nation renowned for its stiff

:01:12.:01:14.

upper lip was showing a decidedly Twenty years on, did Diana's

:01:15.:01:17.

death tip us into a new Or were we right to become more

:01:18.:01:21.

open about our feelings? Theresa May said something

:01:22.:01:30.

that is generally considered Speaking to journalists

:01:31.:01:33.

on her trip to Japan, she said she will be leading

:01:34.:01:37.

the Tory Party into Now, that's not the conventional

:01:38.:01:40.

view, which is that the Tories will dump her ignominiously just

:01:41.:01:53.

as soon as she has taken all the blame for any U-turns

:01:54.:01:56.

or Brexit chaos that'll be coming the Government's way,

:01:57.:01:58.

thus leaving a clean But what a statement

:01:59.:02:00.

for her to make. An attempt to stamp some

:02:01.:02:03.

authority on the party, Is it conceivable that she will lead

:02:04.:02:05.

the party for years to come? Or is it just an inevitable

:02:06.:02:10.

political ritual that Prime Ministers have

:02:11.:02:12.

to pretend as much? Here's our political

:02:13.:02:14.

editor, Nick Watt. There must be something magical

:02:15.:02:29.

about the Alpine air. An emboldened Theresa May has returned from her

:02:30.:02:33.

summer holiday to reset the dial on her faltering premiership by making

:02:34.:02:40.

plain, I am not a quitter. Do you intend to fight the next election?

:02:41.:02:45.

Yes, there's been a lot of speculation about my future which

:02:46.:02:49.

has no basis in it whatsoever. I am on this for the long-term. There is

:02:50.:02:53.

real job to be done in the United Kingdom. It's about getting the

:02:54.:02:58.

Brexit deal right, it's about building that special partnership

:02:59.:03:01.

with the European Union for the future but it is also about leading

:03:02.:03:06.

global Britain, trading around the world, yes, dealing with injustices

:03:07.:03:09.

that remain inside the United Kingdom. The number of votes cast...

:03:10.:03:16.

All a far cry from the diminished figure who emerged shell-shocked

:03:17.:03:18.

from the disaster general election campaign. A Prime Minister who

:03:19.:03:26.

briefly contemplated resigning. And struggled to connect after the

:03:27.:03:32.

Grenfell Tower disaster. Theresa May's remarks today stand in

:03:33.:03:38.

contrast to her sheepish declaration to Tory MPs in the early summer that

:03:39.:03:42.

she would simply serve at their pleasure. Back then the Prime

:03:43.:03:47.

Minister spoke of her duty to see out the Brexit negotiations, raising

:03:48.:03:51.

expectations that she would leave shortly after the two-year deadline

:03:52.:03:56.

in 2019. Now the Prime Minister wants to deliver not just Brexit but

:03:57.:04:03.

also an ambitious agenda of domestic reforms. One leading Brexiteer

:04:04.:04:08.

believes the Prime Minister 's holiday has worked wonders. I think

:04:09.:04:12.

she has a new lease of life, walking in the hills of, or was it

:04:13.:04:16.

Switzerland, I think she is doing remarkably well. And Peter Bone, who

:04:17.:04:23.

was recently entertained to some drinks by the Prime Minister at

:04:24.:04:25.

Chequers believes she is wholeheartedly committed to Brexit.

:04:26.:04:30.

You know what these meetings are about, it's nice to see the Prime

:04:31.:04:34.

Minister but I was amazed at the one thing that she was fired up about,

:04:35.:04:37.

the one thing that will definitely happen is Brexit. Her eyes sparkled

:04:38.:04:42.

at the thought of it and I thought, Wow, this is just what we need. If

:04:43.:04:47.

there was anyone who had any doubt, they should have been about beating.

:04:48.:04:52.

She's going to deliver us Brexit. If she were to deliver Brexit and I

:04:53.:04:56.

think she will, she will be a national hero. And then why not

:04:57.:05:01.

carry on? I have not heard a single person of all my backbench

:05:02.:05:06.

colleagues, saying we have to get rid of the Prime Minister, we have

:05:07.:05:09.

to get a new leader. It just isn't there. There is no plotting. By the

:05:10.:05:14.

way I think if plotting was going on I would know about it. A former

:05:15.:05:19.

adviser to David Cameron with some painful memories of his time in

:05:20.:05:24.

Downing Street understands tactics in seeking to avoid a lame duck

:05:25.:05:28.

premiership. No Prime Minister ever wants to get themselves into a

:05:29.:05:31.

situation where they are setting a date for their departure. My old

:05:32.:05:36.

boss David Cameron found that to his cost in 2015 when he said he would

:05:37.:05:42.

not serve term. But Sir Craig Oliver wonders whether the mixed messages

:05:43.:05:49.

from a Prime Minister who does not command a parliamentary majority

:05:50.:05:52.

will work. The problem further is that she's basically had a narrative

:05:53.:05:57.

in Westminster for the last once but you will go after the Brexit

:05:58.:06:02.

negotiations. It is what has been assumed in the Tory party. Now a lot

:06:03.:06:06.

of people are going to say, wait a minute, I thought you were going. I

:06:07.:06:09.

thought we weren't going to be in a position where he would fight the

:06:10.:06:12.

next election but Wilson is that they will say that that's going to

:06:13.:06:17.

be a problem for them. The hills are alive with the sound of the Prime

:06:18.:06:20.

Minister thinking carefully about her future. Theresa May hopes to

:06:21.:06:26.

have cemented the position in No 10 but she leads a party with a

:06:27.:06:27.

regicide or streak. Should we take this literally,

:06:28.:06:36.

seriously? What is going on. What is her game.

:06:37.:06:40.

A marked shift in tone and substance from the diminished Theresa May we

:06:41.:06:46.

saw after the election. One thing that is clear is that the Prime

:06:47.:06:49.

Minister wanted to use this trip to knock on the head or weekend report

:06:50.:06:54.

that should be gone by August 20 19. Why? Because if you name your

:06:55.:06:58.

departure date as Tony Blair and David Cameron can tell you, there is

:06:59.:07:02.

a danger you become a lame duck. Whether that means that she really

:07:03.:07:06.

will lead the Tory party into the 2022 election I am not too sure. And

:07:07.:07:12.

I think what she was trying to do was chart this very difficult course

:07:13.:07:16.

between not doing a Tony Blair and David Cameron, naming that state but

:07:17.:07:21.

equally not getting into the Thatcher territory, who famously

:07:22.:07:25.

said before the 1987 election that she would go on and on and on. It is

:07:26.:07:31.

a perilous and difficult path and we saw that today. We haven't had this

:07:32.:07:36.

out in public for long, she said it to journalists a bit earlier than it

:07:37.:07:40.

was put into the public domain, how has it gone down. As we know the

:07:41.:07:55.

Brexiteers, Peter Bone very happy if she takes the Tories into the 2022

:07:56.:07:57.

election but one Grandi told me the party was agreed on two things, no

:07:58.:08:00.

general election for the next five years and anything that causes that

:08:01.:08:03.

is a bad thing and must be avoided but one that election comes, Theresa

:08:04.:08:06.

May must not lead the Tory party. This person said to me, there is

:08:07.:08:08.

disagreement about when she should go. One school of thought says, by

:08:09.:08:12.

now, another says, wait until 2019, and that school of thought, the 2019

:08:13.:08:18.

one, is in the ascendancy. Thank you, Nick.

:08:19.:08:21.

A spotlight has been thrown onto the fostering system

:08:22.:08:23.

in the last few days, with the case of a five-year-old

:08:24.:08:26.

girl placed with Muslim foster parents.

:08:27.:08:27.

The reporting has focused on the distress of the child

:08:28.:08:30.

at being in an unfamiliar culture, with Arabic often spoken at home.

:08:31.:08:33.

She has just been taken away from the foster parents and put

:08:34.:08:35.

Obviously, we can't go into the details of the case,

:08:36.:08:42.

but the judge overseeing it has made it quite clear the girl's transfer

:08:43.:08:45.

to her grandmother was nothing to do with the media coverage.

:08:46.:08:52.

And the judge pointed out that the girl's appointed

:08:53.:08:54.

as to the child's welfare, and reported that the child

:08:55.:08:58.

is settled and well cared for by the foster carer.

:08:59.:09:00.

But the judge did say that when the girl was was originally

:09:01.:09:03.

placed, no culturally matched foster family was available.

:09:04.:09:05.

Are enough foster parents out there to offer a choice?

:09:06.:09:10.

Children who need foster care are amongst the most vulnerable in

:09:11.:09:13.

At a difficult and disruptive time, the priority is to find

:09:14.:09:19.

consideration is given to a child's ethnicity,

:09:20.:09:23.

Today, a judge has ordered an English speaking child placed

:09:24.:09:36.

into foster care with a mixed-race family whose

:09:37.:09:40.

reported use of Arabic upset her should live

:09:41.:09:42.

The local authority involved, the London

:09:43.:09:44.

Borough of Tower Hamlets, has insisted the girl's

:09:45.:09:46.

English-speaking, but it has raised questions

:09:47.:09:49.

around the challenges of

:09:50.:09:50.

When you do make decisions about placing a child somewhere in

:09:51.:09:53.

an emergency, if it's not the ideal placement,

:09:54.:09:55.

you then have to decide kind of what's best really and there

:09:56.:09:58.

are also issues about their background, their racial heritage,

:09:59.:10:01.

So there will be a whole number of factors that you would need

:10:02.:10:07.

to take into consideration when you're

:10:08.:10:09.

And as I say, the geographical consideration will be quite a

:10:10.:10:15.

significant one because if a child is being taken out of their family,

:10:16.:10:20.

you don't want them to have to sort of leave

:10:21.:10:22.

school and have to make new

:10:23.:10:23.

friends on top of everything else that's happened to them.

:10:24.:10:26.

The decision to place a child in foster

:10:27.:10:28.

care is made by social workers and Children's

:10:29.:10:31.

Judges can also intervene in the process if it is felt the

:10:32.:10:36.

Time can be critical in making a decision,

:10:37.:10:40.

along with the availability of carers.

:10:41.:10:43.

There is always a shortage of foster carers.

:10:44.:10:47.

Because, well, apart from anything else, like

:10:48.:10:49.

everybody else, foster carers retire.

:10:50.:10:51.

So we are always needing to replace foster carers who already in

:10:52.:10:56.

the system, but we also have an increasing number

:10:57.:10:58.

estimates would be that we probably need to recruit

:10:59.:11:03.

foster carers for England and UK-wide.

:11:04.:11:11.

To be able to kind of meet the demand that we have.

:11:12.:11:14.

And to ensure that we have enough choice really so

:11:15.:11:16.

that we can provide the best placement

:11:17.:11:18.

possible for each child that is

:11:19.:11:20.

There are nearly 53,000 foster carers in England of

:11:21.:11:23.

Nine local authorities reported having no long-term

:11:24.:11:29.

foster carers from ethnic minority groups.

:11:30.:11:33.

And just over a fifth of foster children are from an ethnic

:11:34.:11:36.

A shortage of ethnic minority foster carers means

:11:37.:11:39.

white British families often look after children from different

:11:40.:11:42.

It doesn't happen as much the other way round, but when

:11:43.:11:45.

it does, it can be seen as controversial.

:11:46.:11:47.

Well, I think it is more about self image.

:11:48.:11:50.

Precious Williams spent much of her childhood with

:11:51.:11:51.

I remember quite clearly in my situation, in my

:11:52.:12:02.

childhood situation, eventually there came a time

:12:03.:12:07.

when my mother and stepfather wanted me to come back

:12:08.:12:10.

and live with them as planned, in a Nigerian household.

:12:11.:12:12.

And my English family said, no, they are not

:12:13.:12:14.

And I have actually seen the legal documents from back then

:12:15.:12:19.

and the judge was very much, his decision was for me to stay with

:12:20.:12:23.

He was very much saying I can benefit from the

:12:24.:12:26.

English way of life and being in an English home.

:12:27.:12:28.

And he was sort of saying basically, that is better

:12:29.:12:31.

So, we are going back to the 1980s, that was the attitude then.

:12:32.:12:35.

But unfortunately, this story, it is looking

:12:36.:12:37.

like that is still the

:12:38.:12:38.

attitude now, that if a child of colour

:12:39.:12:40.

is in an English home, they

:12:41.:12:42.

are being somehow, they are benefiting from that, but when you

:12:43.:12:44.

And I also think if we are going to talk

:12:45.:12:50.

about diversity, we need to

:12:51.:12:51.

realise that diversity works all ways.

:12:52.:12:53.

Everyone agrees that children should be matched with foster homes that

:12:54.:12:58.

reflect their needs, faith and background,

:12:59.:12:59.

there simply aren't always enough carers to make that possible.

:13:00.:13:05.

The controversy over fostering started on Monday,

:13:06.:13:13.

when the Times reported details of the Tower Hamlets case.

:13:14.:13:15.

The newspaper put the story on its front page on

:13:16.:13:18.

The journalist who wrote the stories is Andrew Norfolk,

:13:19.:13:21.

A very good evening to you. A typically problem do you think, and

:13:22.:13:28.

I use the word problem in inverted commas because some may not

:13:29.:13:32.

recognise it as such. A typical dealer think it is? As we have just

:13:33.:13:39.

heard, it is far more common in this country, due to a shortage of foster

:13:40.:13:43.

carers from minority ethnic backgrounds for a non-white child to

:13:44.:13:46.

be placed with white British foster carers. We understand that not only

:13:47.:13:52.

in areas of London but also in other parts of the country there are

:13:53.:13:57.

applications when a white British child is placed with non-white

:13:58.:14:01.

carers. They tend to be older children. It's very unusual for a

:14:02.:14:05.

child aged only five to be placed in that sort of environment. The

:14:06.:14:10.

overwhelming majority of foster carers, whether they are Christian,

:14:11.:14:16.

Muslim, Hindu, or of no faith whatsoever, are trained and go out

:14:17.:14:19.

of their way to make sure that that child is made to feel as much as

:14:20.:14:23.

possible at home and in possession of their own identity, and made to

:14:24.:14:27.

feel that the world that they are entering is not one completely alien

:14:28.:14:33.

them. Right. There's been some concern over the reporting. Come and

:14:34.:14:39.

take a couple of aspects? Because when the judges statement was

:14:40.:14:43.

released today, it did emerge that the appointed guardian had found no

:14:44.:14:45.

problems and had spoken to the child in Private and two other people and

:14:46.:14:50.

found that the child was well cared for. It wasn't mentioned in the

:14:51.:14:54.

pieces, I wondered whether that should have been a material fact

:14:55.:14:56.

incoming to the judgment. You are right and I was viewing the

:14:57.:15:07.

journalist in court and we did reflect the child's guardian had no

:15:08.:15:11.

concerns. We were reporting the concerns of another social services

:15:12.:15:16.

employee from Tower Hamlets and she was reporting what she was observing

:15:17.:15:20.

of the child, of that child's deep distress being returned to the home

:15:21.:15:24.

where that child said she could not understand what they were saying

:15:25.:15:28.

because they did not speak English. It is also worth pointing out that

:15:29.:15:33.

this is a six-month placement we are looking at, she has been with two

:15:34.:15:37.

different foster carers, four monster and two months, and the

:15:38.:15:41.

concerns raised with the initial four months. We understand the

:15:42.:15:45.

statement Tower Hamlets put out and the statement from the Guardian

:15:46.:15:49.

reflects the most recent two months. If you said the Guardian had no

:15:50.:15:55.

concerns, I am sorry, I did not see that. There was another aspect of

:15:56.:15:58.

the coverage which was today, your piece implied that the judge has

:15:59.:16:04.

somehow responded, the headline implied the judge had responded to

:16:05.:16:08.

the media coverage. And to take on the child out of the family and put

:16:09.:16:13.

her with her grandmother. When you read the judge's statement, that is

:16:14.:16:17.

not what happened, it was nothing to do with the media coverage, the

:16:18.:16:20.

council wanted her to go to the grandmother and that had always been

:16:21.:16:23.

on the agenda and it was to do with waiting to see that the grandmother

:16:24.:16:28.

herself was suitable to take her into care. I wonder whether that

:16:29.:16:33.

headline and strapline were appropriate? Again, if anyone read

:16:34.:16:36.

the article we published today, we quoted the judge as saying that the

:16:37.:16:41.

media coverage was no factor in her decision. It was the case that the

:16:42.:16:48.

girl's mother for some months had been asking for the child to be

:16:49.:16:51.

placed in the care of her grandmother and removed from foster

:16:52.:16:54.

care because, as the report reflected, there were concerns about

:16:55.:16:58.

the suitability of that placement. The timing was a matter of

:16:59.:17:05.

coincidence. We were not aware that hearing was coming up when we

:17:06.:17:10.

started reporting this case. The judge did criticise Tower Hamlets

:17:11.:17:15.

for delays which had prevented the decision being made sooner. But

:17:16.:17:18.

certainly, all parties were agreeable to the transfer. Thank you

:17:19.:17:20.

very much. Andy Elvin is the Chief Executive

:17:21.:17:23.

of the Tact fostering And Neil Carmichael is the former

:17:24.:17:25.

Tory MP who, as chair of the Education Select Committee,

:17:26.:17:33.

had been leading an inquiry into foster care, before

:17:34.:17:35.

he lost his seat in June. Good evening. When you read the

:17:36.:17:42.

articles, did you have concerns about what they said about the state

:17:43.:17:47.

of fostering in the UK, Neil? The enquiry you have referred to was

:17:48.:17:52.

focusing on two things. One was making fostering more popular and

:17:53.:17:56.

understanding training needed to be enhanced in certain places and

:17:57.:17:59.

pointing out that being a foster carer is a very good thing. The

:18:00.:18:03.

second thing we wanted to talk about was the need for children's services

:18:04.:18:06.

to be more holistic in their thinking and more joined up in their

:18:07.:18:10.

approach to making decisions you have been talking about. Those are

:18:11.:18:15.

the two points that effectively underpinned this story in terms of

:18:16.:18:19.

what we need to do next. Let's not talk about this particular story. In

:18:20.:18:26.

general, do you think cultural, religious, ethnic fit matters? I

:18:27.:18:29.

think what we have to remember is we live in a Liberal democracy. A mixed

:18:30.:18:35.

cultural experiences part of our society. We do not want to get

:18:36.:18:40.

bogged down in that territory. We want to focus on the outcome for the

:18:41.:18:44.

child who is being cared for by foster carers. And also, the overall

:18:45.:18:50.

ethos we are trying to establish here, which is that young people

:18:51.:18:54.

need the proper support, as appropriate, as Children's Services

:18:55.:18:57.

need to react in that way. And everyone would agree with that.

:18:58.:19:02.

Well, everybody does, but we have to deliver it. Andy, do you think

:19:03.:19:07.

cultural fit matters? How much does that matter? It can matter, it

:19:08.:19:11.

depends on the case. There are many examples of excellent foster carers

:19:12.:19:16.

looking after children not from their communities. There are lot of

:19:17.:19:21.

white carers looking after young people from Afghanistan and Iraq and

:19:22.:19:25.

Syria and doing a fantastic job the cultural capital the young people

:19:26.:19:28.

need to respect their background is available in many places in the UK,

:19:29.:19:33.

especially in places like London. It does not as the parents are

:19:34.:19:37.

understanding of the child's background? You want a safe and

:19:38.:19:40.

stable home to meet the needs of the child and that is with the most

:19:41.:19:44.

important thing. In this case, one issue that shocked a lot of people

:19:45.:19:49.

and it is disputed, talking hypothetically, was language, that

:19:50.:19:51.

the foster parents apparently spoke Arabic a lot of the time and the

:19:52.:19:55.

child did not. Whether or not that is that surely would not be a good

:19:56.:20:00.

end? It would not, this case was a nonsense, it was a complete lie that

:20:01.:20:04.

that was the case. To be a foster carer, you have to have a long

:20:05.:20:08.

assessment and have good spoken and written English so in Bishoo spoken

:20:09.:20:12.

in all foster homes around the UK and to suggest otherwise is

:20:13.:20:18.

incorrect. Does it matter to you, is it any different whether it is a

:20:19.:20:24.

Muslim child in a Christian family or Christian child in a Muslim

:20:25.:20:28.

family, is it entirely symmetrical? Yes, I think so, we are a tolerant

:20:29.:20:34.

and Liberal society and those principles have to be maintained.

:20:35.:20:37.

Our attitude must be about the quality of the care and the nature

:20:38.:20:43.

of the decisions around who is going to look after the child. That is the

:20:44.:20:47.

important point. That is why we need to talk about Children's Services as

:20:48.:20:51.

much as foster carers. Is the basic problem that we do not have enough

:20:52.:20:55.

foster carers to make the choices? This was the case here, there was

:20:56.:21:00.

not the cultural fit? There are not enough carers for teenagers and

:21:01.:21:03.

sibling groups and we welcome more foster carers to apply and a lot of

:21:04.:21:06.

people ruled themselves out, they've think they cannot do it because they

:21:07.:21:11.

are single or the wrong religion or they are too old or too young or the

:21:12.:21:15.

wrong sexuality. Foster carers from all backgrounds and they are

:21:16.:21:18.

fantastic. They do with wonderful job in this country. We need to be

:21:19.:21:24.

very grateful and we need more. We definitely need more. I was going to

:21:25.:21:29.

say that. Before we let you go, we need to ask you about the top story

:21:30.:21:33.

today, Theresa May going on and on until the next election. You lost

:21:34.:21:38.

your seat at the last election and on a harsh day, you may say that is

:21:39.:21:43.

her fault, maybe you blame yourself or her, what is the reaction to her

:21:44.:21:47.

leading the party to the next election? We do not know when the

:21:48.:21:51.

next election is going to be, we are in a minority situation and we have

:21:52.:21:54.

difficult decisions to make over Brexit so this is a tabular time. I

:21:55.:21:59.

suppose it is wise for the captain of the ship to point out she is

:22:00.:22:04.

still holding on -- a turbulent time. Would you welcome her being

:22:05.:22:08.

Greider? I thought she was the right choice in the beginning when she

:22:09.:22:13.

first became Prime Minister. I was taken aback at the decision to have

:22:14.:22:18.

a general election when she did. I was also surprised to read the

:22:19.:22:21.

manifesto and I can see you smiling! But I am sure if she were to read us

:22:22.:22:27.

to the next general election, she would focus on the economy first of

:22:28.:22:34.

all. As a key issue. And I cannot imagine any mention of fox hunting!

:22:35.:22:40.

Those lessons to learn. Sorry to digress, thank you, both.

:22:41.:22:44.

Google is being accused today of trying to close down public

:22:45.:22:46.

The story is that a think tank in the US, to which it has given

:22:47.:23:00.

a lot of financial support, published a press release critical

:23:01.:23:03.

of Google, and supporting the EU in fining it recently.

:23:04.:23:05.

Then, mysteriously, the think tank took the offending press

:23:06.:23:08.

release off its website, and exiled the team that had been

:23:09.:23:10.

Had Google got cross at the criticism and threatened

:23:11.:23:13.

The think tank categorically denies it was about Google

:23:14.:23:17.

threatening anything, as does Google.

:23:18.:23:18.

But the sacked Google critic Barry Lynn joins us

:23:19.:23:20.

Good evening. Mr Lynn, what evidence to you have that your separation

:23:21.:23:32.

from the think tank was to do with Google's intervention? There are a

:23:33.:23:40.

number of points of evidence. For instance, the day that we put up a

:23:41.:23:45.

notice, there was a conversation immediately after that with

:23:46.:23:49.

Anne-Marie Slaughter, ahead of the think tank, in which she said, I got

:23:50.:23:55.

off the phone with Google, with Eric Schmidt, and they are polling all of

:23:56.:24:00.

their support including the support for your group. And there is other

:24:01.:24:06.

evidence as well. This is a pattern. It has taken place over a period of

:24:07.:24:10.

a couple of years. In fairness, there is a difference between trying

:24:11.:24:16.

to censor public debate which is your charge, you said Google is

:24:17.:24:19.

trying to censor journalists and researchers. There is a difference

:24:20.:24:23.

between trying to censor you in deciding they do not want to pay

:24:24.:24:25.

view, that is quite a big difference. Google does not pay for

:24:26.:24:29.

me. They were paying for the think tank. They pay for parts of the

:24:30.:24:37.

think tank, to which I am attached. My unit was independent. We raise

:24:38.:24:43.

our money from foundations, from foundations that support public

:24:44.:24:46.

interest work. That is what we have been doing for 15 years. So I have

:24:47.:24:52.

been in New America for a long time and doing this work for a long time.

:24:53.:24:58.

We have never had any problems. That is a very interesting point, you

:24:59.:25:01.

have been doing it for a long time and Google Parliament they gush

:25:02.:25:07.

apparently tolerating a campaign against Google dominated capitalism

:25:08.:25:11.

or whatever you have been researching, but perhaps you cross

:25:12.:25:15.

the line with the last press release which did not even have a report to

:25:16.:25:23.

back it up, it was a reaction to the EU fining Google and sing great

:25:24.:25:32.

news. It was ensuring we have political diversity. And in which

:25:33.:25:38.

power is not concentrated. Our unit has focused on ensuring there is

:25:39.:25:44.

going to be, that we are not going to see a massive concentration of

:25:45.:25:47.

power of the political economy of the United States in the hands of

:25:48.:25:51.

private individuals. That is what we have been doing for the union and

:25:52.:25:55.

that is what we will continue to do. What, are, as far as to tell, but

:25:56.:26:02.

what Google move on. Doing this 20 years ago, we will would probably be

:26:03.:26:06.

campaigning about Microsoft. Ten years ago, it could have been

:26:07.:26:13.

MySpace, the monopoly of that. These things do, and go? Well, they come

:26:14.:26:21.

and go only if there is a trust enforcement. And one think you

:26:22.:26:27.

mentioned, the Microsoft case was a case in which the Department of

:26:28.:26:34.

Justice in the United States brought an action against Microsoft and

:26:35.:26:38.

created a space for writing new companies including Google. OK,

:26:39.:26:39.

thank you very much. We invited New America

:26:40.:26:42.

and Google to join us tonight, As I've said, New America has denied

:26:43.:26:45.

dropping him as a direct result In a statement, the organisation

:26:46.:26:49.

said it had sacked Mr Lynn because he had shown

:26:50.:26:53.

insufficient 'institutional Google issued its own statement,

:26:54.:26:54.

in which it said the company supports hundreds of organisations

:26:55.:27:00.

and doesn't agree with each of them all the time,

:27:01.:27:02.

but that it respects Tonight marks exactly 20

:27:03.:27:04.

years since the death A lot has already been said this

:27:05.:27:07.

month in the build-up to the anniversary of that death,

:27:08.:27:18.

including the reflections of the two Princes in an ITV

:27:19.:27:21.

television documentary. Today, William and Harry

:27:22.:27:24.

remembered their late mother with a visit to a memorial garden -

:27:25.:27:26.

the White Garden - It was pretty wet out

:27:27.:27:29.

there earlier today, but they also took a look

:27:30.:27:33.

at the bouquets left at the gates of the palace,

:27:34.:27:35.

a faint echo of the acres of flowers Those of us who are old enough

:27:36.:27:38.

will never forget that week. We knew it was an

:27:39.:27:44.

extraordinary moment. It felt like a turning point

:27:45.:27:48.

in national character. We became more outwardly emotional,

:27:49.:27:52.

and vocal about it, demanding Newsnight ran nothing

:27:53.:27:55.

other than Diana coverage in the week after her death,

:27:56.:27:59.

and even back then asked whether the effect would be

:28:00.:28:02.

permanent or temporary. So what better time to re-visit

:28:03.:28:06.

that question than now? We'll discuss it shortly, but first,

:28:07.:28:08.

the journalist Mariella Frostrup has been looking back for us at how

:28:09.:28:11.

the nation changed. The seeds of British reserves were

:28:12.:28:27.

sown in the parlours and public schools of the Victorians, and

:28:28.:28:29.

confirmed by our resilience and humour in the face of war. We were

:28:30.:28:35.

stoic, our lips never trembled, we barely emotive and certainly never

:28:36.:28:42.

wept. A young officer had his head blown right Ofcom he is as stiff as

:28:43.:28:47.

cardboard! The stiff upper lip is the greatest act of spin in British

:28:48.:28:50.

history. All it took was one young girl unwilling to toe the line to

:28:51.:28:57.

see that facade crumbled. This is BBC radio news from London. The

:28:58.:29:01.

death has been announced Diana Princess of Wales. In the days after

:29:02.:29:08.

Diana died, Kensington Gardens became a pilgrimage site. When I

:29:09.:29:14.

grudgingly agreed to visit on the Eve of a funeral, it was a warm's

:29:15.:29:20.

summers night and the air was thick with wax and balloons, candlelit

:29:21.:29:23.

vigils were taking place all over the lawns and an eerie silence was

:29:24.:29:27.

broken only by gentle sobbing and the occasional whisper.

:29:28.:29:33.

As the wreaths piled up outside Kensington Palace the nation

:29:34.:29:38.

renowned for its stiff upper lip was showing a decidedly wobbly lower

:29:39.:29:44.

one. Although Diana would never be Queen of England have fresh

:29:45.:29:47.

portrayal of a modern royal and her open affection for her children and

:29:48.:29:51.

subjects had crowned her the Queen of hearts. In death she was elevated

:29:52.:29:56.

to martyrdom is an upsurge of hysterical grief paralysed the

:29:57.:30:02.

nation. It could have come from the pages of a master like Marquez,

:30:03.:30:06.

entitled perhaps, the state of sorrow, as the entire country

:30:07.:30:13.

overnight... That was not a dry eye from lands end to John O'Groats as

:30:14.:30:17.

millions of strangers mourned a woman who had become as much a part

:30:18.:30:23.

of the nation's daily life as the tabloid papers that image had been a

:30:24.:30:28.

staple of. That sense of loss took on enormous proportions and inland

:30:29.:30:32.

in the park around her home became a magnet for the breast, the

:30:33.:30:34.

distraught, and the downright curious. The levels of mourning

:30:35.:30:39.

Nationwide took cynics like myself and allegedly the Queen by surprise.

:30:40.:30:44.

In the moment and indeed with the benefit of hindsight, it is hard to

:30:45.:30:49.

imagine the depths of devastation that Diana's death initiated and the

:30:50.:30:54.

impact it had on her greater supporters, the people -- greatest

:30:55.:30:59.

supporters. We felt like a better, more sympathetic nation for some

:31:00.:31:03.

time afterwards, her empathy for the underdog, their embrace of victims

:31:04.:31:08.

from everything from leprosy to AIDS, her understanding of human

:31:09.:31:12.

need and the compassion she displayed for causes she cared about

:31:13.:31:16.

seemed to thought us. Had allowed us to grieve for what we'd lost but

:31:17.:31:19.

also to come together and embrace the sense of unity have abandoned

:31:20.:31:24.

during the seismic ruptures of the Thatcher revolution. After decades

:31:25.:31:27.

of the iron Lady and her followers, the sustaining notion of community,

:31:28.:31:33.

we were ready to draw together around a sad figure of this lonely,

:31:34.:31:37.

imperfect one man, and the tangible tragedy of her short life. She

:31:38.:31:43.

became a symbol of possibility won her public battle with the

:31:44.:31:46.

centuries-old monarchy out of touch with the nation was won in death.

:31:47.:31:52.

Her greatest triumph may be yet to come as her soul baring adult boys

:31:53.:31:57.

with their eagerness to be seen as down-to-earth expose the fallibility

:31:58.:32:05.

of hereditary elevation. So many hopes and dreams died with Diana,

:32:06.:32:09.

and so many more were born. It was impossible to see the epidemic of

:32:10.:32:14.

sadness provoked as simply the direct result of her death. The

:32:15.:32:20.

connection to this Queen of hearts for some people felt intensely

:32:21.:32:24.

personal yet for many others it was simply a conduit connecting their

:32:25.:32:29.

losses to the national state of sorrow. So what did we learn.

:32:30.:32:34.

Probably nothing we did not know already. There was elevated to great

:32:35.:32:42.

heights haven't even mightier way to fall and even princesses are mortal.

:32:43.:32:46.

But there is no such thing as a fairy tale ending and that

:32:47.:32:49.

expressing your emotions can be cut Karthik even if you don't know what

:32:50.:32:56.

you are grieving for. -- cathartic. The Princess, from the moment she

:32:57.:33:00.

rode the carriage down the mole on her wedding day was emblematic of so

:33:01.:33:03.

much more than that fleeting romance. She was the underdog who

:33:04.:33:10.

revolutionised the monarchy, obliterated our national reputation

:33:11.:33:13.

for maintaining a stiff upper lip and took celebrity soul baring too

:33:14.:33:18.

dizzying new heights. Her legacy remains in the fervour with which

:33:19.:33:22.

she is remembered but despite the god like status thrust on her young

:33:23.:33:26.

shoulders, Diana revealed herself to be mortal, flawed and eager to be

:33:27.:33:34.

loved. Just like the rest of us. Mariella Frostrup.

:33:35.:33:37.

Lots of different things are bound up in the claim

:33:38.:33:39.

that we changed that week - more emotional,

:33:40.:33:45.

perhaps less deferential, sometimes less rational.

:33:46.:33:49.

Isabel Hilton wrote at the time that she felt alienated by the outpouring

:33:50.:33:57.

of emotion, Paris was nine years old when the Princess died and became an

:33:58.:34:01.

adult in the post nine to 97 Britain. Isabel, what are your

:34:02.:34:06.

memories of that week. You say you did not shed any tears. Clearly the

:34:07.:34:11.

event was a shock but I found it became oppressive very quickly. We

:34:12.:34:16.

happened to be driving, the day that her death was announced, from

:34:17.:34:21.

Scotland to London, a long drive, listening to Radio 4. By the time we

:34:22.:34:25.

got to London I thought if one more person was going to be asked how

:34:26.:34:30.

they felt I might scream! What were they supposed to say, I feel great,

:34:31.:34:36.

how do you feel? It was a meaningless enactment of emotion

:34:37.:34:40.

rather than real emotion. Paris, how much do you remember of it. I do

:34:41.:34:44.

remember because I was on holiday with my grandma the night she died

:34:45.:34:49.

and the show had been cancelled just because Princess Diana had died and

:34:50.:34:53.

we were really shocked, looking back now I just think, why did the show

:34:54.:34:58.

have to be cancelled. It was a bit over the top. I remember people

:34:59.:35:03.

being really upset, my mum being really upset, I remember going to

:35:04.:35:07.

some kind of gathering in Nottingham city centre, and just this great

:35:08.:35:11.

sadness being around, really. You have spent a lot of your life

:35:12.:35:15.

fighting against rigid straitjacket that society puts on you. Was she

:35:16.:35:22.

too prior to your era to become someone who was an inspiration, an

:35:23.:35:29.

icon, a role model? No, I'm as addicted as anyone looking at the

:35:30.:35:33.

old panorama interviews on YouTube, clearly there was something about

:35:34.:35:38.

that resonated with people. An adult, now, I have been dismissed as

:35:39.:35:42.

the crazy ex-girlfriend before, and I can see why so many women found

:35:43.:35:49.

something to identify with, she's almost archetypal neurotic woman who

:35:50.:35:56.

had been wronged by the ultimate patriarchal institution, the Royal

:35:57.:36:02.

family. It wasn't just about her as an individual. Obviously she was a

:36:03.:36:06.

special person but thing she tapped into our feelings about the way

:36:07.:36:10.

young women are treated in this society and it's not always fairly.

:36:11.:36:16.

Isabel, did it change bit for good, did we become more sentimental? I

:36:17.:36:20.

look at my Facebook timeline, it is full of sentimental slush most of

:36:21.:36:25.

the time. Does that go back to Diana or is it different. I think I am as

:36:26.:36:31.

the cause of change is overstated. I do think that the stiff upper lip

:36:32.:36:35.

myth, historically, it was pretty short lived. It comes into being in

:36:36.:36:41.

the late 19th century because we needed a stiff upper lip to run an

:36:42.:36:45.

empire. You don't want your district officer in Peshawar in motoring. We

:36:46.:36:51.

want him to be hanging in there. -- not in motoring. Back in the 18th

:36:52.:36:55.

century the British were promoting all over the place. Really? This is

:36:56.:37:02.

not new now? They were not known as Chile, there were known as morose,

:37:03.:37:05.

violent, grumpy but certainly not emotionally buttoned up. Things like

:37:06.:37:13.

The Man Of Feeling there is weeping in every page of this 18th-century

:37:14.:37:16.

novel and people loved it. By mid-Victorian times people find it

:37:17.:37:21.

hard to deal with. I think we are reverting, these things were always

:37:22.:37:26.

there. Paris, has it gone a bit far, do you find life sentimental now? I

:37:27.:37:31.

can't compel it to the pre-Diana world but remember there was this,

:37:32.:37:37.

there was Geri Halliwell leaving the Spice Girls, Jack dying in Titanic,

:37:38.:37:42.

a lot of dramatic stuff when I was a kid! People would make a distinction

:37:43.:37:47.

between those things. Social media is all about feeling, isn't it. And

:37:48.:37:52.

there's not enough of judge this and think about it, it is all about feel

:37:53.:37:57.

it. I guess so. It is interesting what we label as emotional. We don't

:37:58.:38:01.

generally labelled Donald Trump as emotional and yet anger is an

:38:02.:38:06.

emotion. Women's emotions get labelled emotional but if a man is

:38:07.:38:09.

violent and fights we don't say, he's emotional. There has always

:38:10.:38:15.

been emotion expressed in society, it is which ones with police. I

:38:16.:38:18.

think it's good that we have a more open society, society can feel cold

:38:19.:38:25.

and uncaring for lots of people and if anything I think we need more

:38:26.:38:28.

caring because she wasn't just expressing pure emotion, Diana's

:38:29.:38:32.

whole thing was empathy and connecting with other peoples

:38:33.:38:36.

emotions. I think we need more of to be honest. How far do you agree with

:38:37.:38:43.

what you have just heard? At the empathy is very important but it is,

:38:44.:38:47.

of whom do we demand emotional display. That is the tricky bit.

:38:48.:38:53.

Because actually I don't want, if people are in extreme situations

:38:54.:38:56.

they don't want their first responders or policeman to be

:38:57.:38:59.

emotional, they want them to be cool. Theresa May goes to Grenfell

:39:00.:39:08.

Tower... Shouldn't empathise. -- she didn't empathise. She didn't weep,

:39:09.:39:13.

she didn't make the victims, she didn't empathise and at moments of

:39:14.:39:16.

national trauma like that you want the leader to show that they

:39:17.:39:20.

empathise, not that they are weak themselves. I don't want judges and

:39:21.:39:25.

politicians to weep. I want them to mediate between different emotions

:39:26.:39:29.

and make rational and effective decisions. I don't want them crying.

:39:30.:39:34.

Seuk-hyun Baek I think one leader, Jeremy Corbyn, was very empathic.

:39:35.:39:41.

Being empathetic is fine. And we have drawn that distinction. Thank

:39:42.:39:42.

you both very much. And before we go, there's just time

:39:43.:39:46.

to bring you the latest instalment in our series of Proms

:39:47.:39:52.

performances playouts. Tonight, the Elias String Quartet,

:39:53.:39:54.

who will be playing Schubert's String Quartet

:39:55.:39:56.

at Cadogan Hall on For now though, they'll be

:39:57.:39:57.

leaving us with an extract of Mendelssohn's String Quartet No.2

:39:58.:40:01.

in A minor.

:40:02.:40:04.