Browse content similar to 04/09/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Out of the slaughter of the Korean War the first | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
Supreme Leader turned a nation into a personality | :00:07. | :00:08. | |
The face may have changed but the cult remains the same. | :00:09. | :00:12. | |
Except this Supreme Leader has an H bomb thought to be 10 times larger | :00:13. | :00:15. | |
The US has accused Kim Jong Un of 'begging for war' but how much do | :00:16. | :00:25. | |
we know about Swiss-educated lover of pizza and basketball? | :00:26. | :00:31. | |
The chief executive of PR firm Bell Pottinger resigns | :00:32. | :00:33. | |
amid accusations the firm stirred up racial tensions in South Africa. | :00:34. | :00:36. | |
We speak to the companies founder Lord Bell. | :00:37. | :00:41. | |
And they may have had 4 leaders in the last year but it's been | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
a few months since the UK Independence Party last | :00:45. | :00:46. | |
We'll meet the candidates the bookies think are likeliest | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
In a crisis where language is critical the US Ambassador to the UN | :00:50. | :01:03. | |
told a Security Council Meeting today that North Korea's test | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
yesterday of a suspected advanced hydrogen bomb showed Kim Jong Un | :01:07. | :01:08. | |
Today America and South Korea agreed to scrap a warhead limit | :01:09. | :01:17. | |
on South Korea's arsenal enabling it to strike North Korea | :01:18. | :01:20. | |
with greater force in the event of a military conflict. | :01:21. | :01:25. | |
As if to emphasise the scaling up, South Korea earlier carried out | :01:26. | :01:28. | |
a simulated attack on North Korea's nuclear test site. | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
The US Defence Secretary James Mattis warned Pyongyang | :01:33. | :01:34. | |
Amid the deafening din of international diplomacy, | :01:35. | :01:40. | |
what do we know about the 33 year old whom some believe has pushed | :01:41. | :01:43. | |
the world the closest it has come in years to nuclear conflict? | :01:44. | :01:49. | |
Here's our diplomatic editor Mark Urban on what we know | :01:50. | :01:51. | |
Kim Jong-Un, ringmaster of the North Korean circus, but a man who | :01:52. | :02:17. | |
apparently has ordered generals who did not applaud enthusiastically | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
enough to be executed, killed his own brother and now forges ahead | :02:21. | :02:26. | |
with nuclear weapons, even if it threatens to impoverish his nation. | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
Yet, and man also, who those who meet, often take two. I know people | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
who have met him and they describe an young man, a nice sense of humour | :02:36. | :02:41. | |
and easy to be with, very affable in all kinds of ways. Very much a | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
family man, devoted to his wife and children, a man who enjoys the nice | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
things in life, he entertains personal guests on his luxury yacht, | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
usually referred up near a port in the West and he likes nice food and | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
drink. He meet foreigners, his father never did. On New Year's Day, | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
every foreign ambassador gets to shake his hand. That never happened | :03:06. | :03:16. | |
under his father. Emerging from the slaughter of the Korean War, the | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
leader does a personality cult around himself. He also began, he | :03:23. | :03:30. | |
also Ghana quest for self-reliance. That meant developing national | :03:31. | :03:37. | |
industries, avoiding dependence on others, even allies and limiting | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
trade. Long-term, one can see in this obsession with national | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
independence, a quest that would eventually lead to ballistic missile | :03:47. | :03:56. | |
and nuclear weapons development. The succession in 1994 off his son and | :03:57. | :04:05. | |
the present leader's father may the dynastic character of the North | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
Korean regime clear. And inevitably, that bred up the North Korean regime | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
clear. And inevitably, that bred a the occupation eradicating | :04:13. | :04:15. | |
challenges, either in the party or within different branches of the | :04:16. | :04:24. | |
nearly did not happen at all. It certainly was not a given that the | :04:25. | :04:27. | |
leader was going to take over from his father. And there was a long | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
gestation and quite a lot of infighting before he got the top | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
job. By the time it came to the second transition. It was done in a | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
hurry, because Kim Jong Il died quickly of a stroke, we believe, a | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
heart attack, a series of medical conditions and did not look like | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
there was much time to put in order what we in the West might call an | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
succession. It was in the early part of the 21st-century that the pursuit | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
of nuclear weapons became in the view of many people looking at it, | :05:03. | :05:08. | |
unstoppable. The North Korean saw what happened to Gaddafi after he | :05:09. | :05:11. | |
gave up his nuclear weapons programme. They saw what happened to | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
Saddam Hussein when he did not have nuclear weapons. They drew the | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
conclusion that nuclear weapons are necessary for regime survival. In | :05:22. | :05:30. | |
1997, Kim Jong Il sent his son under an assumed name to an international | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
school near the Swiss capital of Berne. Kim Jong-Un spent four years | :05:36. | :05:41. | |
there, the North Korean ambassador attended parents evenings and | :05:42. | :05:47. | |
classmates remember his love of pizza, basketball and American pop. | :05:48. | :05:55. | |
Ascending to the leadership in 2010, Kim Jong-Un pursuit his boyhood | :05:56. | :05:58. | |
idols, inviting them to visit him in Pyongyang. | :05:59. | :06:05. | |
# Happy birthday to you. # Happy birthday to you. But this | :06:06. | :06:08. | |
youthful leader remained mindful of the threat his older brother, once | :06:09. | :06:15. | |
air apparent, but latterly living discreetly in Macau could pose, last | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
year King Jong Nam was assassinated in Malaysia by killers using an | :06:22. | :06:23. | |
nerve agent. Dispensing with internal challenges, | :06:24. | :06:40. | |
Kim Jong-Un calculated that external threats would be best countered by | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
speeding up the missile and nuclear weapons programme and he ignored | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
friendly Chinese advice, Donald Trump's threats and UN sanctions | :06:51. | :06:56. | |
alike. It is not just a vanity, it is seen as what is necessary to | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
preserve the regime, it is partly a matter of this is what North Korea | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
can do, this is all that North Korea can do, is produce weapons that go | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
boom, in every other field of endeavour, they are way behind the | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
South Koreans and the people of North Korea increasingly know that, | :07:16. | :07:23. | |
be it economic or energy or industry or science. The South Koreans are | :07:24. | :07:26. | |
far ahead. Building nuclear weapons and missiles is something that makes | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
the North Koreans feel that they are in the big leagues, that they can | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
compete with the south and that is a powerful motivation not to give it | :07:37. | :07:47. | |
up. Many now regard nuclear weapons as the indispensable prop of the | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
North Korean regime, but it was not always that way. In the mid-19 90s, | :07:51. | :07:56. | |
they were ready to shelve the whole project as part of an international | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
agreement. So what changed? And American sponsored programme of | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
regime change in the Middle East for one thing, George W Bush was too | :08:06. | :08:13. | |
distracted by Iraq and Al-Qaeda to pursuit the North Korean issue and | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
Barack Obama similarly got fixated on the possibility of a deal with | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
Iran, while the North Korean part boiled away. For a leader is still | :08:25. | :08:31. | |
only 33 years old, pursuit of nuclear weapons has validated his | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
grandfather's ideology of self-reliance and demonstrated the | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
impetus of the United States. The main question now is whether Kim | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
Jong-Un knows how to de-escalate this crisis. | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
As recently as a few weeks ago perceived wisdom in many western | :08:49. | :08:51. | |
capitals was that North Korea was several years away | :08:52. | :08:53. | |
from developing long range nuclear weapons. | :08:54. | :08:54. | |
In the last fortnight Pyongyang has shown it has long range missiles | :08:55. | :08:57. | |
Whether it has yet found the technology to combine | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
But how did they do it so quickly - and why didn't the predecessors | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
of the current administration in Washington spot it was happening? | :09:07. | :09:09. | |
Laura Rosemberger served under President Obama | :09:10. | :09:10. | |
as National Security Council director for China and Korea, | :09:11. | :09:13. | |
Policy on China and the Korean Peninsula. | :09:14. | :09:15. | |
She is also a former Asia expert at the Department of State | :09:16. | :09:18. | |
Good evening. Good evening. Why didn't you see this coming under | :09:19. | :09:36. | |
George W Bush? Was the analysis right, where his eyes to firmly on | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
the Middle East to worry about what Kim Jong-Un was doing and his father | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
was doing? I think that there is a complicated series of dynamics, many | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
of which were highlighted in nappies. I think that the Bush and | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
Clinton administrations, the Obama administration, were focused on this | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
challenge. When I was working at the state Department under the Bush | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
administration, I worked on negotiations with the North Koreans, | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
we had a programme at the time that was beginning to take apart their | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
nuclear complex, that deal fell apart for a variety of reasons. I | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
think one of the reasons that is important to note and was | :10:19. | :10:21. | |
highlighted in the film was the fact that Kim Jong-Un is very different | :10:22. | :10:24. | |
from his father and grandfather. He does not respond in the same ways. | :10:25. | :10:31. | |
In a sense, was US intelligence for not to recognise that and was Obama | :10:32. | :10:37. | |
too soft? I think that the American analysts and many around the world, | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
took a while to understand how Kim Jong-Un was behaving differently to | :10:43. | :10:45. | |
his father and grandfather. He does not respond to the same kind of | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
external inducements that his predecessors did. He has been | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
focused on attaining this programme and I think there is no question | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
that what has been done to date has not worked, we would not be here if | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
that were different. That is why think it is so critical that we need | :11:04. | :11:06. | |
to get this right at this really dangerous point in time. Who most | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
likely to get that right, is it the Chinese? The Chinese absolutely play | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
an important role here and they do have a good bit of economic | :11:18. | :11:20. | |
leveraged on the North Koreans, but the Chinese interests are always | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
going to be different to the US interest, and the interests of Seoul | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
and Tokyo and was very European allies, China will only be willing | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
to go so far and this is not a problem that can simply be | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
outsourced. It requires American leadership and a global Coalition. | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
Let me talk to you about the technology, who do you think is | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
helping Kim Jong-Un get the technology that is clearly | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
developing quickly? Yes. There are details I cannot speak to you about | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
but there has been a good bit of reporting about some of the sources | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
for a variety of supplies for the nuclear missile programmes, | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
including technology coming through and from China. There have been | :12:04. | :12:06. | |
conflicting reports about where the engine parts have come from. The | :12:07. | :12:13. | |
reality is that North Korea has developed a good bit of this | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
internally, using financial support that they have been obtaining from | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
different places and I think what is really important is cutting out both | :12:22. | :12:24. | |
the money and the materials that are helping to support the growth of | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
this programme. In one of the article she wrote earlier in the | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
summer, and you talk very firmly about language and you looked at | :12:34. | :12:36. | |
language patterns and you looked at the kind of language that Kim | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
Jong-Un has used and you also said, asked the question, could Trump | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
tweet us into a nuclear war? Trump has inherited this problem, or do | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
you have a sense that he is making it worse? I have to credit the | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
headline writers with that particular headline. I do think of | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
course that language is incredibly important in this kind of scenario. | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
One of the most important things in managing the situation with North | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
Korea is our deterrence and it is coupled with reassurance for our | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
allies. Both of those depend on credibility, credibility of our | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
words, are allies knowing that our commitments are Aaron Pike when we | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
say we will defend Seoul or Tokyo if they are attacked. Our credibility | :13:24. | :13:30. | |
in our words to Pyongyang that they know that if we say we will act, | :13:31. | :13:33. | |
that we will. I worry about the uncoordinated language that we are | :13:34. | :13:36. | |
seeing out of this administration, particularly the very heart rhetoric | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
from the President, could be sending signals that could be misinterpreted | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
and I am worried that could lead to some kind of miscalculation. Thank | :13:45. | :13:45. | |
you very much indeed for joining us. The Chief Executive of the PR firm | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
Bell Pottinger has resigned following a damning report | :13:50. | :13:52. | |
into the company's operation in South Africa for the controversial | :13:53. | :13:54. | |
Indian magnates the Guptas who have It emerged today that | :13:55. | :13:56. | |
James Henderson has stood down as the report, by the International | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
law firm Herbert Smith Freehills found that the "oakbay | :14:01. | :14:02. | |
account" for the Guptas, promoted a narrative around | :14:03. | :14:04. | |
the existence of economic apartheid and economic emancipation, | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
using the term "white Newsnight reported in July how | :14:08. | :14:08. | |
Bell Pottinger stood accused of fuelling racial tensions to draw | :14:09. | :14:11. | |
heat from the Guptas relationship Here is a part of Andrew | :14:12. | :14:14. | |
Harding's investigation. The Guptas deny any corruption | :14:15. | :14:30. | |
and last year hired a British public relations firm, | :14:31. | :14:33. | |
Bell Pottinger to try Bell Pottinger sought | :14:34. | :14:34. | |
to distract attention from their clients' troubles, | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
by highlighting economic and racial What Bell Pottinger, as a PR agency, | :14:39. | :14:40. | |
managed to do in South Africa They sewed back into our nation | :14:41. | :14:46. | |
a very strong racial narrative. With the history of our country | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
that there is, I think that is Today the Huffington Post | :14:51. | :14:53. | |
is reporting that Bell Pottinger has been expelled from the UK's PR | :14:54. | :15:10. | |
and Communications Agency. The expulsion will take immediate | :15:11. | :15:12. | |
effect and constitutes "the most serious sanction" | :15:13. | :15:14. | |
the PRCA can institute. The founder of Bell Pottinger Tim | :15:15. | :15:16. | |
Bell resigned from his firm last Good evening to you. Good evening. | :15:17. | :15:28. | |
The company build with your own hands this must be a devastating | :15:29. | :15:35. | |
day? It is, very disappointing. What went wrong? I think it can best be | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
summed up by Walter Scott, what a tangled web we weave when first we | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
practice to deceive. You were the man who went out to South Africa to | :15:45. | :15:47. | |
secure the steel. Two yes... You went out to secure the deal. It | :15:48. | :16:00. | |
must be something you are very excited about. It was, to secure the | :16:01. | :16:09. | |
deal is the wrong suggestion, I went out there with the suggestion of | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
Chris Gane to go and meet the Guptas and discuss if they needed PR help | :16:14. | :16:20. | |
or not. We talked for several hours and had a meeting to discuss what we | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
would do and I came back and I said to James Henderson, the chief | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
executive, it's an interesting piece of business but we cannot handle it | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
because it's a conflict of interest. You are seeing new came straight | :16:35. | :16:41. | |
back. Straight back. The problem is we have an e-mail you send on the | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
18th of January 2016 in which you said the trip was a great success. | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
It was a great success. We will put forward a deal whereby we will air a | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
?100,000 a month plus costs and I will oversee this and make further | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
reports. That's direct conflict of what you have said. It is not, it is | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
exactly the same as I have said. This e-mail made it clear you think | :17:05. | :17:10. | |
it is a success and you will oversee the deal. It makes it clear it was a | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
conflict of interest. I said that very clearly. There is no mention of | :17:15. | :17:21. | |
a conflict of interest in this e-mail of the 18th of January, it | :17:22. | :17:27. | |
simply says, it is obvious you are excited about it and it will air on | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
the company a lot of money. That is an e-mail I sent from South Africa | :17:32. | :17:38. | |
before I got back. So when you got back, having said you will oversee | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
it, what did you do? I did absolutely nothing. You came back | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
and did nothing yet the company pursued the deal? No, the company | :17:50. | :17:56. | |
submitted a proposal to the Guptas or the people who represented the | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
Guptas. And basically Bell Pottinger started working on this account and | :18:02. | :18:04. | |
developing the campaign and you will senior figure. Know I wasn't. I was | :18:05. | :18:11. | |
the father figure of the meeting if you like. Meetings you always have | :18:12. | :18:14. | |
to have someone senior go to them and I went to it. When you went to | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
this meeting, you as a founder of Bell Pottinger, you come back and | :18:21. | :18:23. | |
say there is a conflict of interest and nobody listens to you, really? | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
Nobody listens to me, that is why I left the company. You came back in | :18:30. | :18:35. | |
January but we know in April 2016 we have seen a further e-mail in which | :18:36. | :18:38. | |
you are offering further advice so you are still involved. You are | :18:39. | :18:46. | |
saying in April, I had a stroke early Easter and I was away from | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
work for many weeks. I went back to the office occasionally and there | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
are occasions when I joined in the conversation, sometimes I did not. | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
You can attack me all you like but it's not going to work, I had | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
nothing to do with getting this account. But you did have everything | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
to do, you made the initial contact and work in South Africa... You said | :19:08. | :19:14. | |
you were going to oversee this and it seems everybody else takes the | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
blame or is given the blame except you. That's very interesting. I | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
think the exact opposite of the situation. So you don't think James | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
Henderson is to blame at all and he should not have resigned? Of course | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
he is to have blame and he should have resigned. He was directly | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
involved in the deal, he knew of all the conversations and what was | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
involved, he knew them all at the time... You are a popular man | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
tonight obviously. Can I just say, one of the key things said about | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
this, on the problem with the account as far as you were concerned | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
seems to be there was a conflict of interest because you had other | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
clients in South Africa. The problem was not that you were running a | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
campaign that had dubious morality. That is not what the situation was. | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
We were asked to do a campaign to mod economic empowerment and that is | :20:11. | :20:16. | |
what we were asked to promote. You were talking about white monopoly | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
capital and those things are divisive. Like Monopoly capital was | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
not mentioned by us but other people. Let's be very clear... Let's | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
look at the history of Bell Pottinger during this, a 30-year-old | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
company and the truth is you have represented people from Pinochet to | :20:36. | :20:38. | |
as mar Assad, which makes a suggestion you do not have a model | :20:39. | :20:47. | |
compass. I did the postapartheid elections, I am aware of the | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
problems in South Africa. I am talking about other clients. I did a | :20:52. | :20:58. | |
job for Assad, setting up the first lady 's office. And worked for | :20:59. | :21:05. | |
Pinochet as well. I did not, I worked for the Pinochet foundation | :21:06. | :21:08. | |
and the barrister that represented them. Is this curtains for Bell | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
Pottinger? It is but it's nothing to do with me. The company is a busted | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
flush? I think it's getting close to the end, you can try to rescue it | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
but it will not be very successful. You must take some responsibility? | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
This is 18 months ago, people write stuff 18 months later journalists | :21:31. | :21:36. | |
write stuff 80 months later and I am supposed to react? I resigned from | :21:37. | :21:42. | |
the company in August last year, published my resignation and I said | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
one of the reasons I was leaving was because of the Guptas account. For | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
somebody who is such a senior figure in the industry, you ran the | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
company, it does not strike anyone as possible that you could be | :21:57. | :21:59. | |
innocent in all of this? SHEAMUS' THEME Well I am sorry but I am. I do | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
not care if you believe it or not the fact is is that is the | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
situation. Tim Bell, thank you very much. | :22:08. | :22:10. | |
The fact Ukip has elected and lost two new leaders in the 15 months | :22:11. | :22:13. | |
since Nigel Farage stood down is perhaps proof of the size | :22:14. | :22:16. | |
At the end of the month members will select a new chief | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
in an election which has been described as the battle | :22:22. | :22:24. | |
This evening there was a hustings with several of the contenders | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
in Central London including the bookies' favourite | :22:29. | :22:30. | |
He could be described as the continuity candidate, | :22:31. | :22:33. | |
But on his heels is a woman who founded Sharia Watch | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
and has branded Islam evil, and according to Mr Farage, | :22:38. | :22:39. | |
if elected, could finish the party. Earlier today Anne Marie Waters | :22:40. | :22:42. | |
tweeted that UKIP candidates were trying to silence the voice | :22:43. | :22:44. | |
within the party against Islamicisation. | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
The MEP Mike Hookem has resigned as UKIP's deputy | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
whip over her candidacy, while the chief whip MEP | :22:53. | :22:55. | |
Stuart Agnew is such a fan he's described her as Joan of Arc. | :22:56. | :22:59. | |
She is with me, and so is Peter Whittle. | :23:00. | :23:05. | |
Good evening to both of you. Is not much which divide you is there? You | :23:06. | :23:13. | |
have described you want sharia law, you want sharia court outlawed, | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
nothing much between you? The incredibly important thing is the | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
idea that somehow are talking about Islam is a new thing which is | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
completely untrue. Since I have been in Ukip I have talked about the need | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
for one law for all and indeed therefore we should not have sharia | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
I have talked about FGM and all these issues which are pressing ones | :23:39. | :23:45. | |
for the public. Do you believe as Anne Marie Waters believes, that | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
Islam is evil? I don't and I don't think it's the sort of approach we | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
should be taking. The fact is this is an incredibly important issue | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
which we should actually as a party be taking on but it should not be | :24:00. | :24:05. | |
the only one. Anne Marie Waters, 18 out of 20 NEP's say they will leave | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
the party if you are elected and that could be a disaster. First of | :24:10. | :24:16. | |
all I don't think all of them will leave. There's a lot of | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
misunderstanding and what I am seeing, they think I have two | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
heads... You have said is one is evil. Yes and I don't see why that | :24:27. | :24:30. | |
is such an outrageous thing to say. We ought to be able to say whatever | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
we like about religion and the problem we have got is we pussyfoot | :24:36. | :24:40. | |
around, spend so much time agonising over not seeing the wrong thing and | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
this is what is putting the public off. This is how millions of people | :24:45. | :24:47. | |
in the country feel and they are waiting for someone to articulate it | :24:48. | :24:54. | |
for them. But if everybody leaves, will people leave, do people | :24:55. | :25:00. | |
subscribed to that view of Islam? We are looking at this to the wrong | :25:01. | :25:08. | |
prism. It's a straightforward prism. The main priority of people in Ukip | :25:09. | :25:11. | |
at the moment and that includes those standing is Brexit. That is | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
why we were founded and it's the crucial part. That was the one note | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
you dead and so now you are moving on from Brexit... Not at all, we | :25:20. | :25:25. | |
have to save our democracy because at the moment there is a slow | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
betrayal going on in terms of Brexit and negotiations and all these | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
transition deals, that's the crucial priority for anyone who takes over a | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
Ukip now and I think you'll find most of the members think that. If | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
most members think that why are you banging on about Islam? Most of the | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
members may think that a lot of them support me. It is not either or. | :25:49. | :25:56. | |
Ukip cannot survive on Brexit alone. What we have to do is top plainly | :25:57. | :26:00. | |
and openly and honestly with an issue that millions of people, about | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
an issue that millions of people in this country cared about whether we | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
like it or not. It's not up to politicians what issues we deal | :26:09. | :26:11. | |
with, it's up to the public to tell us what we want to deal with. You | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
were a close associate of Tommy Robinson in the EDL, would you | :26:17. | :26:23. | |
welcome him into Ukip? He does not have any interest... But would you | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
welcome him? There is leaders discretion but I would leave it up | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
to party members, for the record I would not lift the ban on groups | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
such as the BNP. Wait a minute, it is clear we are the only party that | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
has the sort of things in our Constitution. We are not the EDL. | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
It's not up to weather the members want him or not it is in the | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
Constitution as simple as that, it's not going to do any good for this | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
party if those people start to join these parties. A lot of people | :26:55. | :26:58. | |
support those sort of people, a lot of people think the same way. And | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
have nobody representing them. The fact they are dismissed in this way | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
and described as those sorts of people... The party which has been | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
discussed here by Anne Marie is this the party you think Ukip is? Ukip | :27:13. | :27:19. | |
was built on getting out of the EU. Upcoming it will still be that issue | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
but there are massive other issues. I have always concentrated on the | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
fact we have got, Kirsty, we have got to rebuild British confidence, | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
British identity, British sense of self. Do you agree there should be a | :27:33. | :27:39. | |
temporary ban on immigration? I do not agree to that. It's not a point | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
of that. We have to impose the right laws we have at the moment, they are | :27:45. | :27:52. | |
not being imposed, we need a strict Australian style points system and | :27:53. | :27:55. | |
we've been quite clear on all those sorts of things but the fact is if | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
we take those kind of positions, the fact is we become if you like more | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
like a campaign group and not a political party. Then let's move | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
away from that, do you support capital punishment? Now I don't. | :28:11. | :28:19. | |
Neither do I. It is criminal laws and it's too complex to leave that | :28:20. | :28:22. | |
decision... And what is the position for either of you, if you win will | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
you serve under Peter, if you win would you want Peter as your deputy? | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
I do not know what I would do after I went, if I win, or if I don't win. | :28:33. | :28:41. | |
Would you have Anne Marie as your deputy? No, this is a party with a | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
potentially big future and the fact is that what we have to put out the | :28:46. | :28:48. | |
public at the moment. Thank you very much indeed. | :28:49. | :28:56. | |
Vladimir Putin claims that 4,000 Russian citizens | :28:57. | :28:58. | |
are fighting in Syria on the side of so-called Islamic State. | :28:59. | :29:00. | |
Many of them are from the Russian republic of Dagestan in the volatile | :29:01. | :29:03. | |
Per head of population, 10 times more men, women | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
and children have left Dagestan for Syria than have left | :29:08. | :29:09. | |
Belgium, which is Europe's jihadi feeder capital. | :29:10. | :29:11. | |
The BBC's Russia correspondent Steve Rosenberg travelled | :29:12. | :29:12. | |
into the mountains of Dagestan to find out why. | :29:13. | :29:21. | |
They once believed here that this was the edge of the Earth. | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
Remote, but breathtakingly beautiful. | :29:27. | :29:32. | |
But in these mountains, there is one thing more | :29:33. | :29:39. | |
I've come to this village, to hear one man's story. | :29:40. | :29:52. | |
This man tells me his wife was drawn to radical Islam, and then one day, | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
without telling him, she took their two daughters, | :29:58. | :30:01. | |
ten-year-old Fatima and the three-year-old, | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
and left for Syria to join Islamic State. | :30:06. | :30:11. | |
TRANSLATION: It was my wife's uncle and brother who came around | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
And what right did she have to take my children away like that | :30:15. | :30:26. | |
Artur was determined to get his children back. | :30:27. | :30:35. | |
He borrowed money and flew to Istanbul in Turkey. | :30:36. | :30:41. | |
There he met up with a guide who agreed to smuggle him into Syria. | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
By now, he had received a tip-off by text message, | :30:46. | :30:51. | |
from a relative of his wife, telling him where his children were. | :30:52. | :30:57. | |
A sharia court even granted him custody, but leaving | :30:58. | :31:02. | |
To get home, they would have to escape. | :31:03. | :31:10. | |
Like these people, fleeing Syria by night. | :31:11. | :31:19. | |
TRANSLATION: I took my little girl in my arms and told my | :31:20. | :31:25. | |
As we ran, I tore my trousers on some barbed wire. | :31:26. | :31:28. | |
The Turkish border guards were just 50 metres away | :31:29. | :31:35. | |
We dived into an irrigation ditch and hid there for 20 minutes. | :31:36. | :31:40. | |
We got away from there through long grass. | :31:41. | :31:49. | |
That is when I realised that we were safe. | :31:50. | :31:52. | |
I could see the moon and the cornfields. | :31:53. | :31:54. | |
In Istanbul, the Russian consulate issued the family | :31:55. | :31:57. | |
Father and daughters flew home, but what of his wife? | :31:58. | :32:07. | |
TRANSLATION: I don't know how she is. | :32:08. | :32:09. | |
This spring, my youngest daughter asked me, how come everyone else has | :32:10. | :32:18. | |
But I know the girls are communicating with their | :32:19. | :32:23. | |
I told them not to, but that will not stop them. | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
It is not only from this house, this village, that people | :32:29. | :32:39. | |
Dagestan has become a key recruiting ground for Islamic State. | :32:40. | :32:45. | |
The authorities here say that 1200 people from the area have | :32:46. | :32:47. | |
That means that relative to its population, this part | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
of Russia has produced ten times more jihadists than Belgium, | :32:52. | :32:54. | |
which is Europe's top source of fighters for the caliphate. | :32:55. | :33:05. | |
Why have people been leaving here for Syria? | :33:06. | :33:13. | |
A sense of hopelessness is one reason. | :33:14. | :33:16. | |
This is one of the poorest parts of Russia, with high unemployment | :33:17. | :33:19. | |
It is a fertile soil for extremist ideology. | :33:20. | :33:29. | |
Marat says he had been brainwashed by Islamist | :33:30. | :33:31. | |
He had abandoned his pregnant wife in Dagestan for jihad in Syria. | :33:32. | :33:40. | |
He has now fled ISIS and agreed to talk to me, | :33:41. | :33:42. | |
TRANSLATION: I felt it was my duty to wage holy war against infidels. | :33:43. | :33:53. | |
My wife was against the idea, I told her I was only going for a month. | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
But when I got to Syria, I called her and said, | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
It's not really a holy war, it's just Muslims fighting Muslims. | :34:02. | :34:19. | |
Because he is on the terrorist watch list in Russia, | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
he has gone into hiding here, in Southern Ukraine. | :34:24. | :34:25. | |
He insists he is not a threat to any country. | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
TRANSLATION: I have no intention of carrying out the kind of attacks | :34:31. | :34:33. | |
Running people over with a car or stabbing them. | :34:34. | :34:39. | |
Neither have others like me who left Islamic State. | :34:40. | :34:42. | |
We all came to realise that ISIS was on the wrong path. | :34:43. | :34:48. | |
Recently, ISIS has stepped up attacks in Russia. | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
In Siberia, police shot dead a 19-year-old man, | :34:53. | :34:55. | |
a native of Dagestan after he had gone on a rampage, stabbing | :34:56. | :34:58. | |
A few days later in Dagestan itself, a policeman was stabbed to death. | :34:59. | :35:06. | |
The authorities in Dagestan say they are doing all they can to fight | :35:07. | :35:15. | |
terrorism, but some here believe the methods used are | :35:16. | :35:17. | |
In this town, I am taken to see a mosque. | :35:18. | :35:26. | |
It was used by a fundamentalist brand of Islam until | :35:27. | :35:28. | |
He tells me that police had been monitoring the building. | :35:29. | :35:41. | |
This man used to pray in that mosque. | :35:42. | :35:45. | |
He admits that up to six members of the congregation had left | :35:46. | :35:48. | |
for Syria, but shutting the mosque, he says, is no solution. | :35:49. | :35:55. | |
When the young people are here with us, we can | :35:56. | :35:57. | |
But close down the mosque and the young people leave, | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
who knows where they go and what they are doing? | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
Far from being the edge of the earth, Dagestan | :36:08. | :36:09. | |
It is a battle between different interpretations of Islam. | :36:10. | :36:17. | |
One that preaches tolerance and supports the authorities | :36:18. | :36:19. | |
and a radical Islam, trying to take root here | :36:20. | :36:21. | |
Now - Charles Darwin was a self seeking charlatan - | :36:22. | :36:35. | |
that's the basic premise of a new biography, not | :36:36. | :36:37. | |
by someone steeped in science, but by the writer, critic and lover | :36:38. | :36:40. | |
His contention was that his theory of evolution - | :36:41. | :36:43. | |
the survival of the fittest - was not a scientific certainty | :36:44. | :36:46. | |
but rather a form of religion itself which which espouses | :36:47. | :36:49. | |
Damning with faint praise AN Wilson describes Darwin | :36:50. | :36:59. | |
as "among the foremost experts on the earthworm". | :37:00. | :37:01. | |
"There is no evidence he believed | :37:02. | :37:03. | |
And for good measure, he adds his belief that | :37:04. | :37:12. | |
"Darwin was a direct and disastrous influence." | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
Reviewers - including some scientists - | :37:18. | :37:18. | |
have been highly critical of the book. | :37:19. | :37:20. | |
Mr Wilson is here, and I'm also joined by Doctor Simon Underdown, | :37:21. | :37:23. | |
a research fellow in biological anthropology at Oxford | :37:24. | :37:25. | |
Good evening to both of you. Controversy sells books. But | :37:26. | :37:44. | |
deliberately are controversial in order to get this flying off the | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
book shelves. It did not cross my mind that I would depart from more | :37:49. | :37:55. | |
or less the orthodoxy that prevails in the British and American | :37:56. | :37:58. | |
universities. It was only as I came to read about the subject that I | :37:59. | :38:04. | |
realise there is tremendous divergence of opinion between | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
scientist. I did not say he was a charlatan... That was my word. I do | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
not think he was a charlatan, I think he was a great naturalist, | :38:13. | :38:17. | |
probably the greatest since plainly. I do think some of his ideas, | :38:18. | :38:24. | |
particularly when they are transferred into social aspects of | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
the survival of the fittest has had a disastrous history. I know you | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
write about this Simon and you defend him, he was profoundly | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
racist, his great grandfather Mayday... During the campaign to | :38:38. | :38:45. | |
apologist Avery, am I not a man and a brother, of an African man in | :38:46. | :38:51. | |
chains? I think Charles Darwin has never answer would have been no. It | :38:52. | :38:56. | |
is perfectly possible for someone who is not a scientist to have a | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
rational view? I am not entirely sure where to begin. We could | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
sharpen -- start of the assertion that he was a racist, there is | :39:05. | :39:08. | |
nothing in his written documentation to back that up. He does make a | :39:09. | :39:17. | |
couple of statements in his journals which could be regarded in modern | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
light is somewhat controversial, but what we see with Darwin is his | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
progression of ideas that change over time and suggest that if he was | :39:26. | :39:29. | |
presented with that question, he would say no... In the descent of | :39:30. | :39:38. | |
man, Darwin quite clearly states that savages, brown people, people | :39:39. | :39:44. | |
such as the human beings that he met do not have a proper language, he | :39:45. | :39:48. | |
says they have hardly any vocabulary. When their missionaries | :39:49. | :39:51. | |
went there, they discovered a complex language. That is an | :39:52. | :40:01. | |
interesting point. The missionaries he refers to, did find a complex | :40:02. | :40:06. | |
language but Darwin's ideas... They were very juvenile. They changed | :40:07. | :40:10. | |
over time. When you look at the science that changes, you see a man | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
whose ideas are incredibly sophisticated, they change and the | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
beauty of his work, which Andrew has not come to grips with in the book, | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
he is suffering from profound misunderstanding of the way | :40:24. | :40:27. | |
evolution works, his ideas are based on testable data, all of the | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
components of natural selection can be taken apart and tested and put | :40:32. | :40:38. | |
back together. The great appeal of Darwin, the theory of natural | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
selection is its simplicity. To say I have not understood it is absurd. | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
It is terribly easy to understand, the trouble with it, Darwin himself | :40:47. | :40:54. | |
says that the existence of complex forms, cannot really be explained by | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
his theory and if his theory cannot be shown to demonstrate... For | :41:00. | :41:07. | |
example, how and I comes into being, then the whole theory collapses. | :41:08. | :41:10. | |
That is really what has happened. If it is not evolution... Of course | :41:11. | :41:18. | |
evolution takes place, of course it does, but it takes place within | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
species and the idea that one species is evolved into another is | :41:24. | :41:29. | |
simply not demonstrated. Durrant talks about, this is another point | :41:30. | :41:35. | |
he has misunderstood. He talks about the way that variations build-up. | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
Because you do not believe something, does not mean you | :41:41. | :41:43. | |
misunderstood it. Thank you both very much indeed. | :41:44. | :41:45. | |
Good evening. Expect a humid start to your day, particularly across | :41:46. | :42:04. | |
much of England and Wales but this weather front that will bring a | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
change, marks a change to pressure conditions. We will see sunshine and | :42:10. | :42:12. | |
by the middle of the afternoon across | :42:13. | :42:13. |