04/09/2017 Newsnight


04/09/2017

With Lord Timothy Bell on the accusations his former firm stirred up racial tensions in South Africa, and UKIP leadership candidates Anne Marie Waters and Peter Whittle.


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Transcript


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Out of the slaughter of the Korean War the first

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Supreme Leader turned a nation into a personality

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The face may have changed but the cult remains the same.

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Except this Supreme Leader has an H bomb thought to be 10 times larger

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The US has accused Kim Jong Un of 'begging for war' but how much do

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we know about Swiss-educated lover of pizza and basketball?

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The chief executive of PR firm Bell Pottinger resigns

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amid accusations the firm stirred up racial tensions in South Africa.

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We speak to the companies founder Lord Bell.

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And they may have had 4 leaders in the last year but it's been

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a few months since the UK Independence Party last

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We'll meet the candidates the bookies think are likeliest

:00:47.:00:49.

In a crisis where language is critical the US Ambassador to the UN

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told a Security Council Meeting today that North Korea's test

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yesterday of a suspected advanced hydrogen bomb showed Kim Jong Un

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Today America and South Korea agreed to scrap a warhead limit

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on South Korea's arsenal enabling it to strike North Korea

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with greater force in the event of a military conflict.

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As if to emphasise the scaling up, South Korea earlier carried out

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a simulated attack on North Korea's nuclear test site.

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The US Defence Secretary James Mattis warned Pyongyang

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Amid the deafening din of international diplomacy,

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what do we know about the 33 year old whom some believe has pushed

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the world the closest it has come in years to nuclear conflict?

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Here's our diplomatic editor Mark Urban on what we know

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Kim Jong-Un, ringmaster of the North Korean circus, but a man who

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apparently has ordered generals who did not applaud enthusiastically

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enough to be executed, killed his own brother and now forges ahead

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with nuclear weapons, even if it threatens to impoverish his nation.

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Yet, and man also, who those who meet, often take two. I know people

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who have met him and they describe an young man, a nice sense of humour

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and easy to be with, very affable in all kinds of ways. Very much a

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family man, devoted to his wife and children, a man who enjoys the nice

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things in life, he entertains personal guests on his luxury yacht,

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usually referred up near a port in the West and he likes nice food and

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drink. He meet foreigners, his father never did. On New Year's Day,

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every foreign ambassador gets to shake his hand. That never happened

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under his father. Emerging from the slaughter of the Korean War, the

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leader does a personality cult around himself. He also began, he

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also Ghana quest for self-reliance. That meant developing national

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industries, avoiding dependence on others, even allies and limiting

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trade. Long-term, one can see in this obsession with national

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independence, a quest that would eventually lead to ballistic missile

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and nuclear weapons development. The succession in 1994 off his son and

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the present leader's father may the dynastic character of the North

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Korean regime clear. And inevitably, that bred up the North Korean regime

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clear. And inevitably, that bred a the occupation eradicating

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challenges, either in the party or within different branches of the

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nearly did not happen at all. It certainly was not a given that the

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leader was going to take over from his father. And there was a long

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gestation and quite a lot of infighting before he got the top

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job. By the time it came to the second transition. It was done in a

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hurry, because Kim Jong Il died quickly of a stroke, we believe, a

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heart attack, a series of medical conditions and did not look like

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there was much time to put in order what we in the West might call an

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succession. It was in the early part of the 21st-century that the pursuit

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of nuclear weapons became in the view of many people looking at it,

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unstoppable. The North Korean saw what happened to Gaddafi after he

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gave up his nuclear weapons programme. They saw what happened to

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Saddam Hussein when he did not have nuclear weapons. They drew the

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conclusion that nuclear weapons are necessary for regime survival. In

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1997, Kim Jong Il sent his son under an assumed name to an international

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school near the Swiss capital of Berne. Kim Jong-Un spent four years

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there, the North Korean ambassador attended parents evenings and

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classmates remember his love of pizza, basketball and American pop.

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Ascending to the leadership in 2010, Kim Jong-Un pursuit his boyhood

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idols, inviting them to visit him in Pyongyang.

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# Happy birthday to you. # Happy birthday to you. But this

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youthful leader remained mindful of the threat his older brother, once

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air apparent, but latterly living discreetly in Macau could pose, last

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year King Jong Nam was assassinated in Malaysia by killers using an

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nerve agent. Dispensing with internal challenges,

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Kim Jong-Un calculated that external threats would be best countered by

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speeding up the missile and nuclear weapons programme and he ignored

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friendly Chinese advice, Donald Trump's threats and UN sanctions

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alike. It is not just a vanity, it is seen as what is necessary to

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preserve the regime, it is partly a matter of this is what North Korea

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can do, this is all that North Korea can do, is produce weapons that go

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boom, in every other field of endeavour, they are way behind the

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South Koreans and the people of North Korea increasingly know that,

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be it economic or energy or industry or science. The South Koreans are

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far ahead. Building nuclear weapons and missiles is something that makes

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the North Koreans feel that they are in the big leagues, that they can

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compete with the south and that is a powerful motivation not to give it

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up. Many now regard nuclear weapons as the indispensable prop of the

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North Korean regime, but it was not always that way. In the mid-19 90s,

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they were ready to shelve the whole project as part of an international

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agreement. So what changed? And American sponsored programme of

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regime change in the Middle East for one thing, George W Bush was too

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distracted by Iraq and Al-Qaeda to pursuit the North Korean issue and

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Barack Obama similarly got fixated on the possibility of a deal with

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Iran, while the North Korean part boiled away. For a leader is still

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only 33 years old, pursuit of nuclear weapons has validated his

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grandfather's ideology of self-reliance and demonstrated the

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impetus of the United States. The main question now is whether Kim

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Jong-Un knows how to de-escalate this crisis.

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As recently as a few weeks ago perceived wisdom in many western

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capitals was that North Korea was several years away

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from developing long range nuclear weapons.

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In the last fortnight Pyongyang has shown it has long range missiles

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Whether it has yet found the technology to combine

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But how did they do it so quickly - and why didn't the predecessors

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of the current administration in Washington spot it was happening?

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Laura Rosemberger served under President Obama

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as National Security Council director for China and Korea,

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Policy on China and the Korean Peninsula.

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She is also a former Asia expert at the Department of State

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Good evening. Good evening. Why didn't you see this coming under

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George W Bush? Was the analysis right, where his eyes to firmly on

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the Middle East to worry about what Kim Jong-Un was doing and his father

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was doing? I think that there is a complicated series of dynamics, many

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of which were highlighted in nappies. I think that the Bush and

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Clinton administrations, the Obama administration, were focused on this

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challenge. When I was working at the state Department under the Bush

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administration, I worked on negotiations with the North Koreans,

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we had a programme at the time that was beginning to take apart their

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nuclear complex, that deal fell apart for a variety of reasons. I

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think one of the reasons that is important to note and was

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highlighted in the film was the fact that Kim Jong-Un is very different

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from his father and grandfather. He does not respond in the same ways.

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In a sense, was US intelligence for not to recognise that and was Obama

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too soft? I think that the American analysts and many around the world,

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took a while to understand how Kim Jong-Un was behaving differently to

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his father and grandfather. He does not respond to the same kind of

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external inducements that his predecessors did. He has been

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focused on attaining this programme and I think there is no question

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that what has been done to date has not worked, we would not be here if

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that were different. That is why think it is so critical that we need

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to get this right at this really dangerous point in time. Who most

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likely to get that right, is it the Chinese? The Chinese absolutely play

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an important role here and they do have a good bit of economic

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leveraged on the North Koreans, but the Chinese interests are always

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going to be different to the US interest, and the interests of Seoul

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and Tokyo and was very European allies, China will only be willing

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to go so far and this is not a problem that can simply be

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outsourced. It requires American leadership and a global Coalition.

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Let me talk to you about the technology, who do you think is

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helping Kim Jong-Un get the technology that is clearly

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developing quickly? Yes. There are details I cannot speak to you about

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but there has been a good bit of reporting about some of the sources

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for a variety of supplies for the nuclear missile programmes,

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including technology coming through and from China. There have been

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conflicting reports about where the engine parts have come from. The

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reality is that North Korea has developed a good bit of this

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internally, using financial support that they have been obtaining from

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different places and I think what is really important is cutting out both

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the money and the materials that are helping to support the growth of

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this programme. In one of the article she wrote earlier in the

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summer, and you talk very firmly about language and you looked at

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language patterns and you looked at the kind of language that Kim

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Jong-Un has used and you also said, asked the question, could Trump

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tweet us into a nuclear war? Trump has inherited this problem, or do

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you have a sense that he is making it worse? I have to credit the

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headline writers with that particular headline. I do think of

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course that language is incredibly important in this kind of scenario.

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One of the most important things in managing the situation with North

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Korea is our deterrence and it is coupled with reassurance for our

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allies. Both of those depend on credibility, credibility of our

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words, are allies knowing that our commitments are Aaron Pike when we

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say we will defend Seoul or Tokyo if they are attacked. Our credibility

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in our words to Pyongyang that they know that if we say we will act,

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that we will. I worry about the uncoordinated language that we are

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seeing out of this administration, particularly the very heart rhetoric

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from the President, could be sending signals that could be misinterpreted

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and I am worried that could lead to some kind of miscalculation. Thank

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you very much indeed for joining us. The Chief Executive of the PR firm

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Bell Pottinger has resigned following a damning report

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into the company's operation in South Africa for the controversial

:13:53.:13:54.

Indian magnates the Guptas who have It emerged today that

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James Henderson has stood down as the report, by the International

:13:57.:14:00.

law firm Herbert Smith Freehills found that the "oakbay

:14:01.:14:02.

account" for the Guptas, promoted a narrative around

:14:03.:14:04.

the existence of economic apartheid and economic emancipation,

:14:05.:14:07.

using the term "white Newsnight reported in July how

:14:08.:14:08.

Bell Pottinger stood accused of fuelling racial tensions to draw

:14:09.:14:11.

heat from the Guptas relationship Here is a part of Andrew

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Harding's investigation. The Guptas deny any corruption

:14:15.:14:30.

and last year hired a British public relations firm,

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Bell Pottinger to try Bell Pottinger sought

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to distract attention from their clients' troubles,

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by highlighting economic and racial What Bell Pottinger, as a PR agency,

:14:39.:14:40.

managed to do in South Africa They sewed back into our nation

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a very strong racial narrative. With the history of our country

:14:47.:14:50.

that there is, I think that is Today the Huffington Post

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is reporting that Bell Pottinger has been expelled from the UK's PR

:14:54.:15:10.

and Communications Agency. The expulsion will take immediate

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effect and constitutes "the most serious sanction"

:15:13.:15:14.

the PRCA can institute. The founder of Bell Pottinger Tim

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Bell resigned from his firm last Good evening to you. Good evening.

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The company build with your own hands this must be a devastating

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day? It is, very disappointing. What went wrong? I think it can best be

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summed up by Walter Scott, what a tangled web we weave when first we

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practice to deceive. You were the man who went out to South Africa to

:15:45.:15:47.

secure the steel. Two yes... You went out to secure the deal. It

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must be something you are very excited about. It was, to secure the

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deal is the wrong suggestion, I went out there with the suggestion of

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Chris Gane to go and meet the Guptas and discuss if they needed PR help

:16:14.:16:20.

or not. We talked for several hours and had a meeting to discuss what we

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would do and I came back and I said to James Henderson, the chief

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executive, it's an interesting piece of business but we cannot handle it

:16:30.:16:34.

because it's a conflict of interest. You are seeing new came straight

:16:35.:16:41.

back. Straight back. The problem is we have an e-mail you send on the

:16:42.:16:45.

18th of January 2016 in which you said the trip was a great success.

:16:46.:16:50.

It was a great success. We will put forward a deal whereby we will air a

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?100,000 a month plus costs and I will oversee this and make further

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reports. That's direct conflict of what you have said. It is not, it is

:17:00.:17:04.

exactly the same as I have said. This e-mail made it clear you think

:17:05.:17:10.

it is a success and you will oversee the deal. It makes it clear it was a

:17:11.:17:14.

conflict of interest. I said that very clearly. There is no mention of

:17:15.:17:21.

a conflict of interest in this e-mail of the 18th of January, it

:17:22.:17:27.

simply says, it is obvious you are excited about it and it will air on

:17:28.:17:31.

the company a lot of money. That is an e-mail I sent from South Africa

:17:32.:17:38.

before I got back. So when you got back, having said you will oversee

:17:39.:17:44.

it, what did you do? I did absolutely nothing. You came back

:17:45.:17:49.

and did nothing yet the company pursued the deal? No, the company

:17:50.:17:56.

submitted a proposal to the Guptas or the people who represented the

:17:57.:18:01.

Guptas. And basically Bell Pottinger started working on this account and

:18:02.:18:04.

developing the campaign and you will senior figure. Know I wasn't. I was

:18:05.:18:11.

the father figure of the meeting if you like. Meetings you always have

:18:12.:18:14.

to have someone senior go to them and I went to it. When you went to

:18:15.:18:20.

this meeting, you as a founder of Bell Pottinger, you come back and

:18:21.:18:23.

say there is a conflict of interest and nobody listens to you, really?

:18:24.:18:29.

Nobody listens to me, that is why I left the company. You came back in

:18:30.:18:35.

January but we know in April 2016 we have seen a further e-mail in which

:18:36.:18:38.

you are offering further advice so you are still involved. You are

:18:39.:18:46.

saying in April, I had a stroke early Easter and I was away from

:18:47.:18:51.

work for many weeks. I went back to the office occasionally and there

:18:52.:18:55.

are occasions when I joined in the conversation, sometimes I did not.

:18:56.:18:59.

You can attack me all you like but it's not going to work, I had

:19:00.:19:03.

nothing to do with getting this account. But you did have everything

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to do, you made the initial contact and work in South Africa... You said

:19:08.:19:14.

you were going to oversee this and it seems everybody else takes the

:19:15.:19:19.

blame or is given the blame except you. That's very interesting. I

:19:20.:19:24.

think the exact opposite of the situation. So you don't think James

:19:25.:19:29.

Henderson is to blame at all and he should not have resigned? Of course

:19:30.:19:32.

he is to have blame and he should have resigned. He was directly

:19:33.:19:37.

involved in the deal, he knew of all the conversations and what was

:19:38.:19:41.

involved, he knew them all at the time... You are a popular man

:19:42.:19:47.

tonight obviously. Can I just say, one of the key things said about

:19:48.:19:52.

this, on the problem with the account as far as you were concerned

:19:53.:19:56.

seems to be there was a conflict of interest because you had other

:19:57.:19:59.

clients in South Africa. The problem was not that you were running a

:20:00.:20:04.

campaign that had dubious morality. That is not what the situation was.

:20:05.:20:10.

We were asked to do a campaign to mod economic empowerment and that is

:20:11.:20:16.

what we were asked to promote. You were talking about white monopoly

:20:17.:20:20.

capital and those things are divisive. Like Monopoly capital was

:20:21.:20:24.

not mentioned by us but other people. Let's be very clear... Let's

:20:25.:20:29.

look at the history of Bell Pottinger during this, a 30-year-old

:20:30.:20:35.

company and the truth is you have represented people from Pinochet to

:20:36.:20:38.

as mar Assad, which makes a suggestion you do not have a model

:20:39.:20:47.

compass. I did the postapartheid elections, I am aware of the

:20:48.:20:51.

problems in South Africa. I am talking about other clients. I did a

:20:52.:20:58.

job for Assad, setting up the first lady 's office. And worked for

:20:59.:21:05.

Pinochet as well. I did not, I worked for the Pinochet foundation

:21:06.:21:08.

and the barrister that represented them. Is this curtains for Bell

:21:09.:21:14.

Pottinger? It is but it's nothing to do with me. The company is a busted

:21:15.:21:20.

flush? I think it's getting close to the end, you can try to rescue it

:21:21.:21:25.

but it will not be very successful. You must take some responsibility?

:21:26.:21:30.

This is 18 months ago, people write stuff 18 months later journalists

:21:31.:21:36.

write stuff 80 months later and I am supposed to react? I resigned from

:21:37.:21:42.

the company in August last year, published my resignation and I said

:21:43.:21:46.

one of the reasons I was leaving was because of the Guptas account. For

:21:47.:21:51.

somebody who is such a senior figure in the industry, you ran the

:21:52.:21:56.

company, it does not strike anyone as possible that you could be

:21:57.:21:59.

innocent in all of this? SHEAMUS' THEME Well I am sorry but I am. I do

:22:00.:22:03.

not care if you believe it or not the fact is is that is the

:22:04.:22:07.

situation. Tim Bell, thank you very much.

:22:08.:22:10.

The fact Ukip has elected and lost two new leaders in the 15 months

:22:11.:22:13.

since Nigel Farage stood down is perhaps proof of the size

:22:14.:22:16.

At the end of the month members will select a new chief

:22:17.:22:21.

in an election which has been described as the battle

:22:22.:22:24.

This evening there was a hustings with several of the contenders

:22:25.:22:28.

in Central London including the bookies' favourite

:22:29.:22:30.

He could be described as the continuity candidate,

:22:31.:22:33.

But on his heels is a woman who founded Sharia Watch

:22:34.:22:37.

and has branded Islam evil, and according to Mr Farage,

:22:38.:22:39.

if elected, could finish the party. Earlier today Anne Marie Waters

:22:40.:22:42.

tweeted that UKIP candidates were trying to silence the voice

:22:43.:22:44.

within the party against Islamicisation.

:22:45.:22:48.

The MEP Mike Hookem has resigned as UKIP's deputy

:22:49.:22:52.

whip over her candidacy, while the chief whip MEP

:22:53.:22:55.

Stuart Agnew is such a fan he's described her as Joan of Arc.

:22:56.:22:59.

She is with me, and so is Peter Whittle.

:23:00.:23:05.

Good evening to both of you. Is not much which divide you is there? You

:23:06.:23:13.

have described you want sharia law, you want sharia court outlawed,

:23:14.:23:19.

nothing much between you? The incredibly important thing is the

:23:20.:23:24.

idea that somehow are talking about Islam is a new thing which is

:23:25.:23:29.

completely untrue. Since I have been in Ukip I have talked about the need

:23:30.:23:33.

for one law for all and indeed therefore we should not have sharia

:23:34.:23:38.

I have talked about FGM and all these issues which are pressing ones

:23:39.:23:45.

for the public. Do you believe as Anne Marie Waters believes, that

:23:46.:23:50.

Islam is evil? I don't and I don't think it's the sort of approach we

:23:51.:23:55.

should be taking. The fact is this is an incredibly important issue

:23:56.:23:59.

which we should actually as a party be taking on but it should not be

:24:00.:24:05.

the only one. Anne Marie Waters, 18 out of 20 NEP's say they will leave

:24:06.:24:09.

the party if you are elected and that could be a disaster. First of

:24:10.:24:16.

all I don't think all of them will leave. There's a lot of

:24:17.:24:21.

misunderstanding and what I am seeing, they think I have two

:24:22.:24:26.

heads... You have said is one is evil. Yes and I don't see why that

:24:27.:24:30.

is such an outrageous thing to say. We ought to be able to say whatever

:24:31.:24:35.

we like about religion and the problem we have got is we pussyfoot

:24:36.:24:40.

around, spend so much time agonising over not seeing the wrong thing and

:24:41.:24:44.

this is what is putting the public off. This is how millions of people

:24:45.:24:47.

in the country feel and they are waiting for someone to articulate it

:24:48.:24:54.

for them. But if everybody leaves, will people leave, do people

:24:55.:25:00.

subscribed to that view of Islam? We are looking at this to the wrong

:25:01.:25:08.

prism. It's a straightforward prism. The main priority of people in Ukip

:25:09.:25:11.

at the moment and that includes those standing is Brexit. That is

:25:12.:25:15.

why we were founded and it's the crucial part. That was the one note

:25:16.:25:19.

you dead and so now you are moving on from Brexit... Not at all, we

:25:20.:25:25.

have to save our democracy because at the moment there is a slow

:25:26.:25:30.

betrayal going on in terms of Brexit and negotiations and all these

:25:31.:25:34.

transition deals, that's the crucial priority for anyone who takes over a

:25:35.:25:39.

Ukip now and I think you'll find most of the members think that. If

:25:40.:25:44.

most members think that why are you banging on about Islam? Most of the

:25:45.:25:48.

members may think that a lot of them support me. It is not either or.

:25:49.:25:56.

Ukip cannot survive on Brexit alone. What we have to do is top plainly

:25:57.:26:00.

and openly and honestly with an issue that millions of people, about

:26:01.:26:04.

an issue that millions of people in this country cared about whether we

:26:05.:26:08.

like it or not. It's not up to politicians what issues we deal

:26:09.:26:11.

with, it's up to the public to tell us what we want to deal with. You

:26:12.:26:16.

were a close associate of Tommy Robinson in the EDL, would you

:26:17.:26:23.

welcome him into Ukip? He does not have any interest... But would you

:26:24.:26:27.

welcome him? There is leaders discretion but I would leave it up

:26:28.:26:31.

to party members, for the record I would not lift the ban on groups

:26:32.:26:36.

such as the BNP. Wait a minute, it is clear we are the only party that

:26:37.:26:40.

has the sort of things in our Constitution. We are not the EDL.

:26:41.:26:45.

It's not up to weather the members want him or not it is in the

:26:46.:26:49.

Constitution as simple as that, it's not going to do any good for this

:26:50.:26:54.

party if those people start to join these parties. A lot of people

:26:55.:26:58.

support those sort of people, a lot of people think the same way. And

:26:59.:27:02.

have nobody representing them. The fact they are dismissed in this way

:27:03.:27:07.

and described as those sorts of people... The party which has been

:27:08.:27:12.

discussed here by Anne Marie is this the party you think Ukip is? Ukip

:27:13.:27:19.

was built on getting out of the EU. Upcoming it will still be that issue

:27:20.:27:23.

but there are massive other issues. I have always concentrated on the

:27:24.:27:29.

fact we have got, Kirsty, we have got to rebuild British confidence,

:27:30.:27:32.

British identity, British sense of self. Do you agree there should be a

:27:33.:27:39.

temporary ban on immigration? I do not agree to that. It's not a point

:27:40.:27:44.

of that. We have to impose the right laws we have at the moment, they are

:27:45.:27:52.

not being imposed, we need a strict Australian style points system and

:27:53.:27:55.

we've been quite clear on all those sorts of things but the fact is if

:27:56.:28:00.

we take those kind of positions, the fact is we become if you like more

:28:01.:28:05.

like a campaign group and not a political party. Then let's move

:28:06.:28:10.

away from that, do you support capital punishment? Now I don't.

:28:11.:28:19.

Neither do I. It is criminal laws and it's too complex to leave that

:28:20.:28:22.

decision... And what is the position for either of you, if you win will

:28:23.:28:27.

you serve under Peter, if you win would you want Peter as your deputy?

:28:28.:28:32.

I do not know what I would do after I went, if I win, or if I don't win.

:28:33.:28:41.

Would you have Anne Marie as your deputy? No, this is a party with a

:28:42.:28:45.

potentially big future and the fact is that what we have to put out the

:28:46.:28:48.

public at the moment. Thank you very much indeed.

:28:49.:28:56.

Vladimir Putin claims that 4,000 Russian citizens

:28:57.:28:58.

are fighting in Syria on the side of so-called Islamic State.

:28:59.:29:00.

Many of them are from the Russian republic of Dagestan in the volatile

:29:01.:29:03.

Per head of population, 10 times more men, women

:29:04.:29:07.

and children have left Dagestan for Syria than have left

:29:08.:29:09.

Belgium, which is Europe's jihadi feeder capital.

:29:10.:29:11.

The BBC's Russia correspondent Steve Rosenberg travelled

:29:12.:29:12.

into the mountains of Dagestan to find out why.

:29:13.:29:21.

They once believed here that this was the edge of the Earth.

:29:22.:29:26.

Remote, but breathtakingly beautiful.

:29:27.:29:32.

But in these mountains, there is one thing more

:29:33.:29:39.

I've come to this village, to hear one man's story.

:29:40.:29:52.

This man tells me his wife was drawn to radical Islam, and then one day,

:29:53.:29:57.

without telling him, she took their two daughters,

:29:58.:30:01.

ten-year-old Fatima and the three-year-old,

:30:02.:30:05.

and left for Syria to join Islamic State.

:30:06.:30:11.

TRANSLATION: It was my wife's uncle and brother who came around

:30:12.:30:14.

And what right did she have to take my children away like that

:30:15.:30:26.

Artur was determined to get his children back.

:30:27.:30:35.

He borrowed money and flew to Istanbul in Turkey.

:30:36.:30:41.

There he met up with a guide who agreed to smuggle him into Syria.

:30:42.:30:45.

By now, he had received a tip-off by text message,

:30:46.:30:51.

from a relative of his wife, telling him where his children were.

:30:52.:30:57.

A sharia court even granted him custody, but leaving

:30:58.:31:02.

To get home, they would have to escape.

:31:03.:31:10.

Like these people, fleeing Syria by night.

:31:11.:31:19.

TRANSLATION: I took my little girl in my arms and told my

:31:20.:31:25.

As we ran, I tore my trousers on some barbed wire.

:31:26.:31:28.

The Turkish border guards were just 50 metres away

:31:29.:31:35.

We dived into an irrigation ditch and hid there for 20 minutes.

:31:36.:31:40.

We got away from there through long grass.

:31:41.:31:49.

That is when I realised that we were safe.

:31:50.:31:52.

I could see the moon and the cornfields.

:31:53.:31:54.

In Istanbul, the Russian consulate issued the family

:31:55.:31:57.

Father and daughters flew home, but what of his wife?

:31:58.:32:07.

TRANSLATION: I don't know how she is.

:32:08.:32:09.

This spring, my youngest daughter asked me, how come everyone else has

:32:10.:32:18.

But I know the girls are communicating with their

:32:19.:32:23.

I told them not to, but that will not stop them.

:32:24.:32:28.

It is not only from this house, this village, that people

:32:29.:32:39.

Dagestan has become a key recruiting ground for Islamic State.

:32:40.:32:45.

The authorities here say that 1200 people from the area have

:32:46.:32:47.

That means that relative to its population, this part

:32:48.:32:51.

of Russia has produced ten times more jihadists than Belgium,

:32:52.:32:54.

which is Europe's top source of fighters for the caliphate.

:32:55.:33:05.

Why have people been leaving here for Syria?

:33:06.:33:13.

A sense of hopelessness is one reason.

:33:14.:33:16.

This is one of the poorest parts of Russia, with high unemployment

:33:17.:33:19.

It is a fertile soil for extremist ideology.

:33:20.:33:29.

Marat says he had been brainwashed by Islamist

:33:30.:33:31.

He had abandoned his pregnant wife in Dagestan for jihad in Syria.

:33:32.:33:40.

He has now fled ISIS and agreed to talk to me,

:33:41.:33:42.

TRANSLATION: I felt it was my duty to wage holy war against infidels.

:33:43.:33:53.

My wife was against the idea, I told her I was only going for a month.

:33:54.:33:57.

But when I got to Syria, I called her and said,

:33:58.:34:01.

It's not really a holy war, it's just Muslims fighting Muslims.

:34:02.:34:19.

Because he is on the terrorist watch list in Russia,

:34:20.:34:23.

he has gone into hiding here, in Southern Ukraine.

:34:24.:34:25.

He insists he is not a threat to any country.

:34:26.:34:30.

TRANSLATION: I have no intention of carrying out the kind of attacks

:34:31.:34:33.

Running people over with a car or stabbing them.

:34:34.:34:39.

Neither have others like me who left Islamic State.

:34:40.:34:42.

We all came to realise that ISIS was on the wrong path.

:34:43.:34:48.

Recently, ISIS has stepped up attacks in Russia.

:34:49.:34:52.

In Siberia, police shot dead a 19-year-old man,

:34:53.:34:55.

a native of Dagestan after he had gone on a rampage, stabbing

:34:56.:34:58.

A few days later in Dagestan itself, a policeman was stabbed to death.

:34:59.:35:06.

The authorities in Dagestan say they are doing all they can to fight

:35:07.:35:15.

terrorism, but some here believe the methods used are

:35:16.:35:17.

In this town, I am taken to see a mosque.

:35:18.:35:26.

It was used by a fundamentalist brand of Islam until

:35:27.:35:28.

He tells me that police had been monitoring the building.

:35:29.:35:41.

This man used to pray in that mosque.

:35:42.:35:45.

He admits that up to six members of the congregation had left

:35:46.:35:48.

for Syria, but shutting the mosque, he says, is no solution.

:35:49.:35:55.

When the young people are here with us, we can

:35:56.:35:57.

But close down the mosque and the young people leave,

:35:58.:36:02.

who knows where they go and what they are doing?

:36:03.:36:07.

Far from being the edge of the earth, Dagestan

:36:08.:36:09.

It is a battle between different interpretations of Islam.

:36:10.:36:17.

One that preaches tolerance and supports the authorities

:36:18.:36:19.

and a radical Islam, trying to take root here

:36:20.:36:21.

Now - Charles Darwin was a self seeking charlatan -

:36:22.:36:35.

that's the basic premise of a new biography, not

:36:36.:36:37.

by someone steeped in science, but by the writer, critic and lover

:36:38.:36:40.

His contention was that his theory of evolution -

:36:41.:36:43.

the survival of the fittest - was not a scientific certainty

:36:44.:36:46.

but rather a form of religion itself which which espouses

:36:47.:36:49.

Damning with faint praise AN Wilson describes Darwin

:36:50.:36:59.

as "among the foremost experts on the earthworm".

:37:00.:37:01.

"There is no evidence he believed

:37:02.:37:03.

And for good measure, he adds his belief that

:37:04.:37:12.

"Darwin was a direct and disastrous influence."

:37:13.:37:17.

Reviewers - including some scientists -

:37:18.:37:18.

have been highly critical of the book.

:37:19.:37:20.

Mr Wilson is here, and I'm also joined by Doctor Simon Underdown,

:37:21.:37:23.

a research fellow in biological anthropology at Oxford

:37:24.:37:25.

Good evening to both of you. Controversy sells books. But

:37:26.:37:44.

deliberately are controversial in order to get this flying off the

:37:45.:37:48.

book shelves. It did not cross my mind that I would depart from more

:37:49.:37:55.

or less the orthodoxy that prevails in the British and American

:37:56.:37:58.

universities. It was only as I came to read about the subject that I

:37:59.:38:04.

realise there is tremendous divergence of opinion between

:38:05.:38:08.

scientist. I did not say he was a charlatan... That was my word. I do

:38:09.:38:12.

not think he was a charlatan, I think he was a great naturalist,

:38:13.:38:17.

probably the greatest since plainly. I do think some of his ideas,

:38:18.:38:24.

particularly when they are transferred into social aspects of

:38:25.:38:28.

the survival of the fittest has had a disastrous history. I know you

:38:29.:38:32.

write about this Simon and you defend him, he was profoundly

:38:33.:38:37.

racist, his great grandfather Mayday... During the campaign to

:38:38.:38:45.

apologist Avery, am I not a man and a brother, of an African man in

:38:46.:38:51.

chains? I think Charles Darwin has never answer would have been no. It

:38:52.:38:56.

is perfectly possible for someone who is not a scientist to have a

:38:57.:39:00.

rational view? I am not entirely sure where to begin. We could

:39:01.:39:04.

sharpen -- start of the assertion that he was a racist, there is

:39:05.:39:08.

nothing in his written documentation to back that up. He does make a

:39:09.:39:17.

couple of statements in his journals which could be regarded in modern

:39:18.:39:21.

light is somewhat controversial, but what we see with Darwin is his

:39:22.:39:25.

progression of ideas that change over time and suggest that if he was

:39:26.:39:29.

presented with that question, he would say no... In the descent of

:39:30.:39:38.

man, Darwin quite clearly states that savages, brown people, people

:39:39.:39:44.

such as the human beings that he met do not have a proper language, he

:39:45.:39:48.

says they have hardly any vocabulary. When their missionaries

:39:49.:39:51.

went there, they discovered a complex language. That is an

:39:52.:40:01.

interesting point. The missionaries he refers to, did find a complex

:40:02.:40:06.

language but Darwin's ideas... They were very juvenile. They changed

:40:07.:40:10.

over time. When you look at the science that changes, you see a man

:40:11.:40:14.

whose ideas are incredibly sophisticated, they change and the

:40:15.:40:18.

beauty of his work, which Andrew has not come to grips with in the book,

:40:19.:40:23.

he is suffering from profound misunderstanding of the way

:40:24.:40:27.

evolution works, his ideas are based on testable data, all of the

:40:28.:40:31.

components of natural selection can be taken apart and tested and put

:40:32.:40:38.

back together. The great appeal of Darwin, the theory of natural

:40:39.:40:42.

selection is its simplicity. To say I have not understood it is absurd.

:40:43.:40:46.

It is terribly easy to understand, the trouble with it, Darwin himself

:40:47.:40:54.

says that the existence of complex forms, cannot really be explained by

:40:55.:40:59.

his theory and if his theory cannot be shown to demonstrate... For

:41:00.:41:07.

example, how and I comes into being, then the whole theory collapses.

:41:08.:41:10.

That is really what has happened. If it is not evolution... Of course

:41:11.:41:18.

evolution takes place, of course it does, but it takes place within

:41:19.:41:23.

species and the idea that one species is evolved into another is

:41:24.:41:29.

simply not demonstrated. Durrant talks about, this is another point

:41:30.:41:35.

he has misunderstood. He talks about the way that variations build-up.

:41:36.:41:40.

Because you do not believe something, does not mean you

:41:41.:41:43.

misunderstood it. Thank you both very much indeed.

:41:44.:41:45.

Good evening. Expect a humid start to your day, particularly across

:41:46.:42:04.

much of England and Wales but this weather front that will bring a

:42:05.:42:09.

change, marks a change to pressure conditions. We will see sunshine and

:42:10.:42:12.

by the middle of the afternoon across

:42:13.:42:13.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.

Lord Timothy Bell on the accusations his former firm stirred up racial tensions in South Africa, UKIP leadership candidates Anne Marie Waters and Peter Whittle, and Mark Urban looks at what we really know about Kim Jong Un.