25/10/2017 Newsnight


25/10/2017

With Evan Davis. Inside Queen Elizabeth's Hospital in Birmingham as winter approaches, Jared O'Mara, Annie Leibovitz, plus did Clinton dig the dirt on Trump?


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Transcript


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Try not to get sick this winter.

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The NHS is overstretched as it is,

and will struggle to cope

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with too much more.

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The way that things have become

in A&E over the last two years,

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we're at breaking point.

It can't carry on.

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The queues on the corridor

and the situation

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the patients are in, and

the department's in, it's unsafe.

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Tonight, we go inside Queen

Elizabeth Hospital Birmingham

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to see just what

the pressure is now.

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And the chief executive

there is with is to explain

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how bad it might get

as the peak season arrives.

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We've heard a lot about

Trump and the Russians

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allegedly digging the dirt

on Hillary Clinton last year.

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It seems her campaign

was paying for dirt to be

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found on Donald Trump.

Awkward? Or obvious?

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We talk to her trusted

advisor, Sidney Blumenthal.

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And from Trump, to the Queen,

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Annie Leibowitz has

photographed them all.

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I just thought,

"That's my photograph

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of the President and First Lady."

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It was a classic

Helmut Newton-style photograph

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of Melania with Donald Trump,

sort of, as an ornament.

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Hello. We are giving you

a forewarning of something

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important tonight, a possible

impending crisis in the NHS.

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Winter is coming,

and that is the busy season.

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But strange things have been

happening to climate in the NHS,

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there appears to have been

no summer, no quiet season.

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It's operating at full pelt

through the year so we are heading

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into winter without any slack,

and that could be catastrophic

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for waiting times

over the next few months.

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You will see what

I'm talking about in this film

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made by Nick Blakemore,

documenting a slice of life

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at Queen Elizabeth's Hospital in

Birmingham over a four day period.

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Before you watch,

remember that while the NHS is

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a caring human service,

it can also be seen

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as a production line.

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There is a flow of people

in and out of treatment

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and the two have to match.

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If the back end is clogged up,

the effects ripple back

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through the system.

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ED sister, can I help?

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My name's Eve Gillepie,

sisters I'm one of the senior

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sisters in the A&E Department

at the Queen Elizabeth Hospital.

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So you've still got two

empty at the moment? Lovely.

Yeah.

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As soon as we get some

space out here we'll

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think about shoping some

people around, OK?

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The way that things have become

in a A&E over the last two years,

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we are at breaking point.

It can't carry on.

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The queues on the corridor,

and the situation the patients

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are in and the Department's

in, it's unsafe.

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I slipped down the stairs,

and I think I broke my foot.

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I'm in a lot of pain. Very bad.

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You just don't expect to see

so many people, and you know,

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people not having beds,

not being seen to by doctors.

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It just feels like we're

in a third World country,

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to be honest with you.

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We're probably seeing 100 patients

more a day than we were a year ago.

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Two or three patients

used to be stressful,

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but over the last couple of years,

this is just an average day

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that we would have

this many patients

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on the corridor at one time.

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And we're not even in winter yet.

No. No, sorry. Excuse me.

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We're going into the emergency

department to see a gentleman

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who's already been in the emergency

department for over eight hours.

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So where are we going?

We're going to resus.

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He needs to be in a bed

on our medical admissions unit.

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We haven't been able

to find that space for him.

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I think the delay

we've got is because we're

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waiting for a side room.

Yeah, OK.

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So, is he going to be stable

enough to go into a side room?

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He probably is, actually.

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Year, I think if we can get him

a little bit more fluid.

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The NHS is breaking at the seams.

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The amount of people

who need the services

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we can offer is growing,

and we just do not have the resource

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to deal with that.

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Although he's not full

resuscitation, I would expect him

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to recover from this episode,

if that makes sense.

OK.

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Brilliant.

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Thank you, Adam.

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The reason we have people queueing

round the corners in the emergency

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department is because the whole

system is stuck. We're congested.

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There's nowhere for anybody to go.

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If I can't discharge people

from the back end of the hospital,

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so people needing the long-term care

because of lack of community

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services, that means there's no beds

that come up on the acute wards.

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Which means there's no beds coming

up on the medical admissions unit,

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and that's why people are

stuck in A&E cubicles or even

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on the corridor

in the emergency department.

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Right, then, Bernard.

How are you feeling?

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I'm knackered all the time.

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I can't use energy up

doing anything else.

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I've been a pain in the arse

on the ward, because I know I am,

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because I'm blocking

a sick person's bed up.

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And I know they can't do

anything else for me.

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And you've been in hospital for,

it's about five weeks this time,

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isn't it?

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And because of you getting

so breathless, that's why we looking

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for you to move into 24-hour care.

Sure, yeah.

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I must have had four

people come to talk to me.

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I've been rejected by

all of them, because of this.

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Because care homes don't normally

have built in oxygen.

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Bernard's told us that

four different places have

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turned him down so far.

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And when I asked him

how that made him feel,

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he pointed out that nobody actually

gives him the direct message

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it's the staff come and assessing,

and they never actually say

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to his face, "We don't want you."

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I ain't bothered

snuffing it tomorrow.

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I wouldn't do anything to help it.

I don't want reviving again.

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I don't want to keep

coming backwards.

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I don't want to live whatever

the rest of my life is like this.

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I'm going to leave you, all right?

Is that still hot?

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Yeah. That's still warm.

That's still hot.

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Can we start moving some people

down into rooms for me,

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the one at the front into two.

The one behind into three.

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And then we'll go in...

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This chappie into two for me.

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And the lady behind into three.

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I've got cancer.

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And what happened today?

I've been very weak.

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And so, I had to get

in touch with relatives.

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Who got in touch with

the doctors, and here I am.

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I phone up every morning,

because we live a bit

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of a way away from Frank.

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And over the past few days,

he's become progressively weaker.

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How do you feel about having

to wait in the corridor?

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It's a sign of our times, isn't it.

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I mean, they're under so much

pressure now from various things.

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It's what you expect, really.

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Ten years ago, I never once

nursed a patient in a corridor.

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Never once had to shuffle people

around, and explained why

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we were sending them out

into the waiting room.

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It was easily managed

within the department.

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Over the years,

especially the last two years.

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The renal colic man can go into six.

It's just dreadful.

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There's just no space for people.

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Walk round and see if there's anyone

that can move out of cubicles,

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so we can off-load the new ones.

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So we asked you to

come here so we can complete

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an assessment on your mother,

who is Vera Yates, yeah?

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Date of birth,

the 30th of August, 1924.

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She's got

advanced vascular dementia.

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I won't be recommending continuing

health care at this moment in time.

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Where does this leave

mum as far as her care?

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It just means now that her care

will not be funded by health.

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So shewill receive

£155.05 per week from the NHS

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towards her care in a nursing home.

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I have 30 beds on this ward.

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Back in January, I had three

or four patients, possibly,

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who had been on here for a few

weeks, most people are on here

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for two or three weeks up the mess.

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Now, I have at least ten patients

who are out on the social services

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computer system waiting

for a long-term placement.

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I'm getting people with

more challenging behavioural

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problems on the ward.

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They're people who find it hard

to find a care home that

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can meet their needs.

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Have you had a cup of tea

this afternoon, mum?

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I think so.

You think so?

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The overall process of moving

from where we are now to where mum

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needs to be during the next

few weeks is just the concern

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we have at the moment.

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SINGING

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She's off now.

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My background is, when you start

the process off, you create

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a deadline, don't you.

I don't know whether that's there.

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And I'm just concerned

that this thing will drag on.

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PHONE RINGS

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QE alert phone.

Hi, trauma desk.

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I'm ringing from A&E.

We're getting a code red through.

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So if we could have...

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Pelvic...

TXO...

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15 minutes...

By land. OK.

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I'll call you back as soon as have

a hostel number and trauma name.

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It's a 30-year-old male...

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We've got no ITU beds

for the code red.

OK.

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Which I'm addressing at the moment.

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I'm going to have to pull someone

out of ITU into the beds...

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To see the NHS as it is now,

I don't see it getting any better.

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I don't know what

the answer is to it.

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But in my eyes,

it's just going to get worse.

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So, he's had agonal breathing,

they're worried cardiovascularly,

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so agonal breathing was agitated.

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It was a push bike.

A code red?

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We've got a code red trauma call

in about 15 minutes.

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A 30-year-old male.

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I feel for the patients.

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How long have we got?

15 minutes.

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I feel for the new nurses

coming through that have to work

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in an emergency department

like this, to never have known it

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how it was, it's a shame.

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It just seems to be acceptable

to treat people on the corridor,

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and you know, it's not dignified,

really, is it.

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It's not the way we want

to treat our patients,

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but we don't have a choice.

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Heroic efforts to cope at Queen

Elizabeth Hospital.

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That's how it feels at one

very large hospital, and we'll talk

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to the chief executive shortly.

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But I'm with our policy editor

Chris Cook, so let's get more

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on the national picture.

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Give us a wider sense of what's

going on in the emergency services

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all over the country.

Birmingham is

not alone, there is a structural

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problem with A&E at the moment. At

the moment, what we look for in

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A&Es, 95% of patients should be done

with within four hours of coming in.

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This is the 95% mine, where they are

supposed to be, 2011-12. On the left

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side of the graph, that is 2011

summer. There is a dip in the

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winter.

They mostly at 95%.

There is

a wobble in the winter and that is

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it. The year after that, 2012-13,

there is a bigger wobble in the

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winter, it takes longer to get back

to the line, but we are up there. In

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the game for 95%. 2015-16 is a

different year. It starts lower. It

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dives deeply, and doesn't really

recover. We lose a chunk of

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performance this year, which we have

never got back. If we draw in the

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line from last year, we can see the

server started lover, died really

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low, pulled it back, but we are

going into this winter a long way

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from where we are supposed to be.

That's A&E, hospitals do more than

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A&E, what is the importance of the

accident and emergency?

Apart from

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the intrinsic and potent as health

providers, what you saw in the film

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was an example of how they are

interconnected to everything else.

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You can't run a good tip to

everything else. You can't run a

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good 2-2 without good social care

and without other hospitals and

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effective GPs. The measure of A&E is

helpful, it is a canary in the coal

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mine, it helps us see the bigger

picture, the health of the health

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system.

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Well, back in February

we showed you a film about

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how they were coping

at Queen Elizabeth Hospital

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in Birmingham.

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And we spoke to Dame Julie Moore,

the woman in charge there.

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She was candid about the problems.

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But that was the end of winter,

so we have her back now

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to see how the management is

coping with the pressure

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we saw in the film.

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Good evening to you. What is your

best case for this winter?

I think

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the film has really said it all,

that A&E is just a part of an

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overall process. I'm slightly more

optimistic this winter because what

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we have done, and this is a

relatively new building at the Queen

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Elizabeth Hospital, is over the

summer, starting at the end of last

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winter, we stripped out all the

nonclinical accommodation around the

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A&E department which is due to open

next week or the week after to

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create additional capacity but the

walls are not elastic, there's very

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little else we can do. Rooms,

offices have all gone.

You've turned

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them into more warts?

More beds and

assessment areas and they will open

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up next week.

OK.

That is one she

bucked the second is staffing. Even

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if we could open up lots more

capacity, A&E is not proving to be a

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popular profession for people any

more because of the pressures we

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have just seen. I worry about how we

will staff them in the future.

It

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does not have to be bad this winter

but what is the worst case because

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we have heard worries about flu from

Australia and these kind of things,

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what might you lose sleep over?

Well, it came out in the film that

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one of the things that has really

changed in the past couple of years

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is patients who are delayed in

hospital who no longer needed acute

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medical care but can't get out into

the social care system or into other

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NHS provision. Both of those are

causing delayed transfers that those

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patients and we have seen that go

from average about 20 patients three

0:15:340:15:38

or four years ago to now in excess

of 71 and last year we lost 25,000

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bed days to patients who don't need

to be there. I'm a bit more

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optimistic at the moment because we

have a change in approach from the

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executive leadership of our local

authority who are making good

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strides, whether it will be enough

and in time, but it seems positive

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moves about how we can help people

get to the right place more quickly.

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This is about providing good care,

not just about beds.

Let's focused

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on the delayed transfer of care

because when we spoke to in February

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it was clearly a huge issue and the

government says it has provided £2

0:16:100:16:14

billion additional funding for

social care. Are you confident it

0:16:140:16:17

will make a difference, at least on

the blockage at the end of the

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system?

Well, what we have seen, we

work with quite a lot of local

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authorities, mainly Birmingham and

Solihull, and Solihull has gone from

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over 400 days lost to delayed

transfers of care in June to fewer

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than 11 in September. With a

concentrated effort you can do that

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and that has been magnificent, and

Birmingham, it started a bit later

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because the new leadership team came

in later but they are doing similar

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things so I'm confident we will see

some movement happening but I would

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also want like to look at what the

NHS does.

There is a care issue in

0:16:500:16:55

the NHS as well.

Something called

continuing health care where people

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have health care needs which are

assessed as belonging to the NHS and

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one of the things that has been

particularly upsetting I think is

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that when people want to go home to

die, they are assessed as needing

0:17:050:17:10

continuing health care and put on a

fast track system but in the past

0:17:100:17:13

six months alone, 75 people have

died in one of the hospitals I'm

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responsible for, waiting for that

continuing health care.

So they have

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died in hospital?

Rather than a

time.

So the fast track system are

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taking months?

Sometimes it does,

yes.

There's a story in the Guardian

0:17:260:17:31

today suggesting the government will

pay people £1000 a month to take

0:17:310:17:35

someone in, to take them out of

hospital for recuperation. Does that

0:17:350:17:39

work, putting them in my spare

bedroom?

I'm not sure, it is

0:17:390:17:44

certainly an idea which has been

touted run before and people have

0:17:440:17:47

concerns about how you get the

individuals and check up on progress

0:17:470:17:50

and how you would monitor that but

at the moment, anything is worth a

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try.

Do you think we ever get back

to the A&E times of 95%? Basically

0:17:540:18:00

we are way off the target, 95% of

people seen in four hours is the

0:18:000:18:04

sign of a system that is working and

we are way off it.

One of the things

0:18:040:18:10

that is quite difficult is how you

measure this so if you bring in a

0:18:100:18:13

system to improve care for patients,

for example, we saw patients coming

0:18:130:18:17

through the emergency department who

could have more appropriately gone

0:18:170:18:19

to someone else so the man who came

in and said he had cancer, we've set

0:18:190:18:24

up an acute oncology units are

people bypass the emergency

0:18:240:18:27

department and go straight to the

ward. You can't count those in the

0:18:270:18:30

numbers going through the emergency

department and if you start trying

0:18:300:18:33

to count in all the other pathways

you put in to try to speed things up

0:18:330:18:41

a patience, you get closer to it but

we don't consistently measure it. If

0:18:410:18:44

you provide care outside of

hospital, so people don't come

0:18:440:18:45

through the emergency department,

again... We are not always measuring

0:18:450:18:48

the same thing.

OK. We have talked

about people coming out of the

0:18:480:18:52

system into care or whatever they

need. The numbers coming in is

0:18:520:18:56

another part of the problem your

staff were talking about. There are

0:18:560:19:00

more people coming in. Is it a

problem with GPs or population

0:19:000:19:05

growth or what?

I don't think it is

so much a problem with GPs because a

0:19:050:19:08

lot of the patients there really

needed to be in, it is not something

0:19:080:19:11

GPs could necessarily deal with. It

is a symptom of we are living

0:19:110:19:16

longer, longer with more diseases

and we have seen a 16% rise in the

0:19:160:19:19

emergency departments at the Queen

Elizabeth in the past two years

0:19:190:19:23

which is a massive increase by

anyone's imagination. As I said at

0:19:230:19:27

the start, the walls are not elastic

and we don't have all the staff in

0:19:270:19:30

the world so we will do what we can

to do that but we have do have the

0:19:300:19:34

whole hospital system working

together.

What would it take to go

0:19:340:19:37

back to the good old days? Chris

showed us the picture when there was

0:19:370:19:40

a bit of a dip in winter but it was

basically 95%. What would it take?

0:19:400:19:46

So far, you have not presented is

usually grim picture of this winter,

0:19:460:19:50

actually rather better than some

other doctors I have heard talking

0:19:500:19:54

about the prospects. But what would

it take to go back to a kind of well

0:19:540:19:58

functioning system that met the

targets?

We have not got enough

0:19:580:20:02

capacity, bedsore staff and that is

what we need to focus on.

0:20:020:20:06

Alternatives to hospital care are

great and we need to do that but at

0:20:060:20:09

the moment, a lot of the patients

need to be in hospital. We need to

0:20:090:20:13

train a lot more staff as well. One

of the other problems, why there are

0:20:130:20:17

problems with delayed transfers of

care is it is quite difficult to

0:20:170:20:20

staff the nursing homes and

certainly for us to be able to

0:20:200:20:23

afford the nursing homes, to get

people to provide care at home. We

0:20:230:20:27

don't value caring as an occupation

very much in this country. Often,

0:20:270:20:31

some of the carers are paid minimum

wage or just above when actually, it

0:20:310:20:35

is one of the most important jobs

you can do and we need to value it

0:20:350:20:38

far more highly.

Dame Julie Moore,

they give very much and thank you

0:20:380:20:42

for letting us into film in the

hospital. -- thank you very much.

0:20:420:20:46

The Labour MP Jared O'Mara has been

suspended by the party while it

0:20:460:20:49

investigates numerous allegations

of misogyny and homophobia,

0:20:490:20:51

mostly but not all rather old.

0:20:510:20:53

The question the Labour Party has

found itself asking today though,

0:20:530:20:55

is less about O'Mara himself,

more about its procedures

0:20:550:20:58

for selecting candidates.

0:20:580:20:59

I'm joined by Nick Watt,

our political editor.

0:20:590:21:04

We should say, he was not expecting

to win, he was kind of what they

0:21:040:21:09

call a paper candidate, shoved on

the ballot, never dreams of winning

0:21:090:21:12

and ending up in Westminster.

It's

imported to say white Labour

0:21:120:21:18

suspended in today because a website

revealed he'd made some really

0:21:180:21:21

offensive remarks this year and the

significance of that is in a lengthy

0:21:210:21:24

apology to the Parliamentary Labour

Party, on Monday night he said he'd

0:21:240:21:28

make those kind of remarks many

years ago and he'd been on a journey

0:21:280:21:30

but what is interesting is that

Labour's National executive

0:21:300:21:35

committee is looking at how they

selected Jarrod O'Mara. As you say,

0:21:350:21:39

it was last minute, snap election

and the National executive committee

0:21:390:21:42

in those circumstances use the rules

where you select by-election

0:21:420:21:45

candidates and they run the process.

They did not interview him.

Know?

0:21:450:21:51

Know and there was a cursory look at

his social media and they are

0:21:510:21:57

essentially saying, how can we make

sure we don't do this again? For

0:21:570:22:00

example, Newsnight understands they

will be selecting 75 Labour

0:22:000:22:02

candidates between now and Christmas

and making sure, remember, they did

0:22:020:22:05

not expect to get Sheffield Hallam,

those kind of Skeet -- seats, they

0:22:050:22:08

will have a more robust process.

Meanwhile in Brexit land, we have

0:22:080:22:13

this bill which has been sitting

around, the withdrawal bill, which

0:22:130:22:16

has been in the sidings for a bit

and it's got to come out, they have

0:22:160:22:19

to put it to parliament.

There's a

strong expectation the committee

0:22:190:22:23

stage will begin on the 14th and

15th of November, tee days per week

0:22:230:22:28

for four weeks which means it should

be done by Christmas. There's been a

0:22:280:22:32

lot of discussion about the

government in negotiation with Tory

0:22:320:22:35

rebels but I understand one of the

big stumbling blocks has been over

0:22:350:22:39

devolution and the need to reach an

agreement with the devolved bodies.

0:22:390:22:42

I understand a cabinet meeting last

Tuesday, a rather sombre meeting,

0:22:420:22:46

David Mundell, the Scotland

Secretary, said, "We've got to get a

0:22:460:22:52

legislative consent motion from the

Scottish Parliament. The Scottish

0:22:520:22:55

Parliament has got to take this".

Intense talks have been under way.

0:22:550:22:59

There is a hope there will be a deal

that will mean that Holyrood will be

0:22:590:23:04

able to say it is OK but a sign of

how important that is, if there were

0:23:040:23:09

a vote at Holyrood tomorrow, the

expectation is that Ruth Davidson

0:23:090:23:11

and the Scottish Conservatives would

not be able to give their consent to

0:23:110:23:16

the bill. But there is not going to

be a vote tomorrow and there are

0:23:160:23:20

lots of negotiations and big

confidence there will be a deal.

0:23:200:23:22

Thank you for joining us.

0:23:220:23:24

You remember the dossier

on Donald Trump.

0:23:240:23:26

It emerged in a leak

in January, and had been

0:23:260:23:28

compiled by a British agent

called Christopher Steele.

0:23:280:23:30

It was the one with some salacious

allegations involving Trump's

0:23:300:23:33

behaviour in a Russian hotel.

0:23:330:23:35

Well, the Washington Post has

uncovered something interesting.

0:23:350:23:38

Mr Steele was ultimately

being partly paid by

0:23:380:23:40

Hillary Clinton's campaign.

0:23:400:23:43

The dossier made headline news,

even though most media outlets felt

0:23:460:23:49

uncomfortable spelling out

all the allegations.

0:23:490:23:53

The thrust of it was

that the Russians might have some

0:23:530:23:57

serious dirt on President Trump,

so-called Kompromat, thus

0:23:570:24:00

potentially compromising his policy

towards President Putin.

0:24:000:24:08

Are you sure Russia was behind

hacking?

I mean, maybe.

But are you

0:24:080:24:17

really, really sure?

It was China.

0:24:170:24:22

It hit the public domain

after the election,

0:24:220:24:23

but its existence had been the talk

of many in Washington prior to that.

0:24:230:24:27

We knew it had been paid

for by supporters of Clinton,

0:24:270:24:30

just not that the campaign itself

and the Democratic

0:24:300:24:33

Party contributed.

0:24:330:24:36

The Washington Post says

that the campaign lawyer paid

0:24:360:24:39

a company which then hired Steele

to do the research.

0:24:390:24:47

Nothing new.

0:24:470:24:48

But many have been critical

of President Trump's son who met up

0:24:480:24:51

with a Russian offering tempting

dirt on Hillary.

0:24:510:24:54

No Democrat thought it expedient

to explain that the Democrats

0:24:540:24:58

were themselves indirectly hiring

a foreigner to dig up dirt on Trump.

0:24:580:25:02

Sidney Blumenthal is

long-time advisor to both

0:25:020:25:06

Bill and Hillary Clinton,

and joins me now from Washington DC.

0:25:060:25:12

Good evening. So much going on in

American politics but I want to

0:25:120:25:15

start with this dossier. Did you

personally know that the campaign

0:25:150:25:19

was partly financing it and its

research?

Erm, I did not but it was

0:25:190:25:27

fairly well known last year that

without knowing exactly, that there

0:25:270:25:31

were Democratic donors who were

paying for this investigation into

0:25:310:25:38

the Russian intervention into the US

presidential election, which

0:25:380:25:44

subsequently, all US intelligence

agencies concurred and was done in

0:25:440:25:51

order to help elect Donald Trump.

And they found in hiring Christopher

0:25:510:25:57

Steele, the most professional and

credible person they could, who also

0:25:570:26:01

held the trust of the FBI and had

worked on dozens of investigations

0:26:010:26:06

with the FBI, and he has turned over

his material long ago to the FBI

0:26:060:26:14

counterintelligence unit, which is

now investigating it and has in turn

0:26:140:26:19

turned the material over to the

special prosecutor, Robert Muller,

0:26:190:26:22

the former director of the FBI.

A

lot of people looking at this will

0:26:220:26:27

say, really, this is both sides

digging up dirt. Possibly Donald

0:26:270:26:31

Trump did it better than Hillary

Clinton because he had a stash of

0:26:310:26:34

e-mails, or there was a stash of

e-mails but both sides were doing

0:26:340:26:38

it. It is kind of dragging American

politics into which both parties are

0:26:380:26:43

bad or -- as bad as each other.

It

is unprecedented that an anniversary

0:26:430:26:48

foreign power, in this case, Russia,

intervened in the presidential

0:26:480:26:52

election in order to determine its

outcome. We have learned since

0:26:520:26:57

Christopher Steele's dossier became

public that there was a lot more to

0:26:570:27:02

those active measures, including

exploitation extensively of social

0:27:020:27:08

media and we are going to see on the

1st of November testimony before

0:27:080:27:13

congressional committees of the

heads of Google and Facebook about

0:27:130:27:18

that. So this is a major issue

involving the tech companies,

0:27:180:27:26

American political life, the future

of our democracy and how Donald

0:27:260:27:29

Trump became president.

And went

Donald Trump Jr went to see a

0:27:290:27:34

Russian lawyer who said, "I've got

dirt on Hillary Clinton", it was

0:27:340:27:39

only because she was Russia and that

there was a problem with that.

0:27:390:27:42

People said it was terrible he

accepted such an invitation when in

0:27:420:27:46

fact in your view, it was only

because she was Russian and it is

0:27:460:27:49

fine to get dirt on the opponent.

Well, let's see what Robert Muller

0:27:490:27:55

determines about that incident and

how he sorted out. I believe that

0:27:550:28:01

Donald Trump is panicked about the

investigation conducted by Robert

0:28:010:28:10

Mueller, and it is very tightly

held, there are no leaks from it. He

0:28:100:28:16

has all this material. He will

determine its validity and

0:28:160:28:19

credibility and he has much more

material than simply be Christopher

0:28:190:28:24

Steele dossier. He has intercepts of

Trump associates with Russians and

0:28:240:28:27

he now has, through subpoenas,

documents, e-mails, phone

0:28:270:28:33

conversations and he has begun to

gather testimony. So let us wait and

0:28:330:28:40

see what Mr Mueller does but I think

we can detect in the creation of

0:28:400:28:45

conspiracy theories on the part of

Donald Trump, nothing new, a whiff

0:28:450:28:50

of panic.

Let's talk about the

Republicans because something rather

0:28:500:28:54

interesting happened yesterday with

Senator Jeff Flake making an

0:28:540:28:56

impassioned speech that he had given

up and Constable Donald Trump. He

0:28:560:29:01

obviously thinks he has calls and

American politics. Did you see that?

0:29:010:29:06

I know you are a Hillary Clinton

supporter but did you see that as an

0:29:060:29:09

important moment, if you like, in

the revolution of the Republican

0:29:090:29:13

party and how it relates to drop?

Senator Jeff Flake of Arizona's

0:29:130:29:18

speech, which was extraordinary,

yesterday, on the floor of the

0:29:180:29:22

Senate, denouncing Donald Trump on

every level and calling him indecent

0:29:220:29:27

and a threat to our democracy,

unprecedented from a member of one's

0:29:270:29:33

own party. It was not the only

speech making these points. There

0:29:330:29:39

was Senator Bob Corker, the chairman

of the foreign relations committee,

0:29:390:29:42

Saint Donald Trump is a threat to

national security. There was the

0:29:420:29:46

speech of former President George W

Bush, making all of these speeches

0:29:460:29:50

about the destruction of civil

society by Donald Trump, without

0:29:500:29:54

naming him. And there were the

comments and the speech of Senator

0:29:540:29:57

John McCain, who was a former

Republican presidential candidate,

0:29:570:30:03

and who is critically ill and feels

unbound, now, to say whatever is on

0:30:030:30:07

his mind. So we have four

distinguished Republicans now

0:30:070:30:11

stepping forward, making a

consistent case about Donald Trump

0:30:110:30:16

and what we are seeing is a party

that is fracturing before our eyes.

0:30:160:30:21

Sidney Blumenthal, thank you.

0:30:210:30:23

For some, Annie Leibovitz is most

famous as the photographer who took

0:30:250:30:28

portraits of the Queen ten years

ago, and who unwittingly featured

0:30:280:30:30

in a BBC documentary film scandal

in which footage was edited

0:30:300:30:33

to falsely look as though the Queen

had stormed out in a huff.

0:30:330:30:37

It would be a pity if that's

all you know of Leibovitz, though.

0:30:370:30:42

Her portraits are highly valued

by subjects and viewers alike,

0:30:420:30:44

from the beautifully

intimate, to lavish,

0:30:440:30:46

over-the-top constructions.

0:30:460:30:52

And a new book of them

has just been published -

0:30:520:30:55

Portraits 2005 to 2016.

0:30:550:30:56

Odd title, as some of there

are actually portraits from years

0:30:560:30:58

either side of those dates.

0:30:580:30:59

But when I sat down with Annie

Leibovitz I didn't ask about that.

0:30:590:31:03

We talked about some

of her photos, and inevitably,

0:31:030:31:05

the politics behind them.

0:31:050:31:08

Annie Leibovitz,

let's start with Hillary Clinton,

0:31:080:31:10

because you'd planned to finish

the book, so to speak,

0:31:100:31:13

with a portrait of Hillary Clinton

in the White House.

0:31:130:31:16

Yeah, it was almost worse than that.

0:31:160:31:18

I actually really

thought about doing the book,

0:31:180:31:23

a good reason to do the book

at this time, and that time was just

0:31:230:31:27

literally over a year ago,

not that long ago, was with the idea

0:31:270:31:30

that it would end with

Hillary Clinton, which would be,

0:31:300:31:33

you know, sort of a beginning.

0:31:330:31:34

I imagined Hillary Clinton,

you know, in the Oval Office

0:31:340:31:38

and that was my ending.

Let's just say...

0:31:380:31:42

When it didn't happen, when she

was not elected and, you know...

0:31:420:31:48

I really thought about

not doing the book.

0:31:480:31:53

It was just topsy-turvy,

you know, I mean, this kind

0:31:530:31:56

of amusing character,

you know, became the President

0:31:560:32:01

of the United States

and this woman who had

0:32:010:32:05

all the credentials, all...

0:32:050:32:06

Should have been the President

of the United States.

0:32:060:32:08

It was a big blow.

0:32:080:32:12

What was interesting is,

you've got a picture

0:32:120:32:14

of Hillary in the book.

0:32:140:32:15

It's not at the end, it's a picture

of her as Secretary of State.

0:32:150:32:18

It was a tough decision about...

0:32:180:32:20

You know, as I was finishing

the book, I had pictures

0:32:200:32:24

of Hillary Clinton on

the campaign trail, and you know,

0:32:240:32:28

I had a photograph of Obama,

you know, literally his last day

0:32:280:32:33

in office, in the Oval

Office, and it looked...

0:32:330:32:37

And that's how the book

was ending and it looked sad.

0:32:370:32:41

I did not want it to look like we...

That Hillary lost, you know.

0:32:410:32:47

And so on purpose, I kept

Hillary at work, during that period

0:32:470:32:50

of the Obama administration.

0:32:500:32:56

You've got an extraordinary

picture of Donald Trump

0:32:560:32:58

and Melania in the book.

Right, right.

0:32:580:33:00

Very pregnant.

Yes, very pregnant.

0:33:000:33:02

Tell us the story of that.

Well, the elements were there.

0:33:020:33:04

It's not like...

0:33:040:33:06

We were supposed to meet them

on the tarmac, I think

0:33:060:33:11

they were on their way back

to New York, the plane was there.

0:33:110:33:14

You know, basically,

in the stairway, the back entrance

0:33:140:33:17

to the Trump aeroplane,

you know, the motors on both sides.

0:33:170:33:22

I just thought, "That's my,

that's my photograph

0:33:220:33:24

of the President and first Lady".

0:33:240:33:25

Sorry, we're going back to the early

2000s, now, so it's...

0:33:250:33:28

Yes, so this is very...

It's not as president.

0:33:280:33:30

No, it's not as president, no, no.

But did...

0:33:300:33:35

But it tells you who they are.

There's a gold bathing suit.

0:33:350:33:42

Helmut Newton used to get clothing

that was always like a size

0:33:420:33:45

too small for the person,

so it always looked like it was

0:33:450:33:48

going up their bottom or whatever.

0:33:480:33:50

So it was, it was a classic,

you know, kind of, you know,

0:33:500:33:53

Helmut Newton-style photograph

of Melania, sort of with...

0:33:530:33:56

You know, Donald Trump

as sort of an ornament.

0:33:560:34:00

You've obviously not a fan

of Donald Trump as president.

0:34:000:34:03

Do you have to like

the people you take?

0:34:030:34:05

I mean, you...

You know, we're not...

0:34:050:34:09

I personally have this issue

where I, I think it's a weakness

0:34:090:34:13

in my work where I do like to

admire and like people I photograph.

0:34:130:34:18

But that, that's not the nature

of my work in the long run.

0:34:180:34:22

I believe you should be able

to photograph people you don't like.

0:34:220:34:26

But you never make

any of them look bad.

0:34:260:34:29

I suspect you sometimes,

you pick up the vanity

0:34:290:34:32

or the grandeur they think

of themselves with but you don't...

0:34:320:34:35

I think if...

0:34:350:34:38

You know, I think that old saying,

"If you give some enough rope,

0:34:380:34:41

they hang themselves",

I think that actually is really

0:34:410:34:43

very, very true in this work.

0:34:430:34:45

Now talking about

controversial people...

OK!

0:34:450:34:47

Harvey Weinstein.

Yes.

0:34:470:34:52

There's a picture of

Harvey Weinstein, Bob Weinstein,

0:34:520:34:55

with their mother, actually,

again going back to the early 2000s.

0:34:550:34:57

Yes, and because

this book is so new, it just

0:34:570:35:04

just came out, I'm like, "Oh, my

God, Harvey Weinstein's in there!"

0:35:040:35:07

Erm, but, I stand by

the photograph in some ways

0:35:070:35:09

because he is with his...

0:35:090:35:11

You know, I think this idea

of putting him and his

0:35:110:35:13

brother with their mother.

It's poignant, actually.

0:35:130:35:16

There's a subconscious aspect

there of bringing him down to size,

0:35:160:35:19

basically, you know,

with his small mother

0:35:190:35:22

standing in front of him.

I think it says a lot.

0:35:220:35:26

Did... It's become

a very common question

0:35:260:35:28

to everybody in this,

your circle, I mean,

0:35:280:35:30

did you know, had you heard much

about Harvey Weinstein?

0:35:300:35:32

I, I didn't know the, the details.

0:35:320:35:37

That all of this is coming

to the surface is so long overdue

0:35:370:35:40

and, and that we are,

as a society, recognising,

0:35:400:35:44

you know, all of this.

I mean, I, I haven't had...

0:35:440:35:50

You know, the most

pleasant experiences.

0:35:500:35:53

You know, I've seen him more

as a bully, you know,

0:35:530:35:57

in a couple of instances,

and you know,...

0:35:570:36:04

You know, actually said I would not

work on any of his sets any more.

0:36:040:36:08

But I didn't know

about any of his, erm...

0:36:080:36:11

The sexual predation

was a different thing?

Yeah.

0:36:110:36:15

There was one woman who has,

there's no shortage of pictures of,

0:36:150:36:18

of course, Queen Elizabeth.

0:36:180:36:24

And you got a really quite

extraordinary and wonderful picture

0:36:240:36:26

of her with Princess Anne

in an incredibly...

Right.

0:36:260:36:28

It makes me cry, that picture.

I love it because it feels...

0:36:280:36:34

I feel out of all the photographs

I've taken, it's not a great

0:36:340:36:39

photograph but it's a very genuine

look or feel from Queen Elizabeth.

0:36:390:36:44

And I think they were very happy,

you know, to be together

0:36:440:36:46

in that photograph.

0:36:460:36:50

Interestingly, that was of course

the second time, and she must have

0:36:500:36:53

liked you because she would not have

sat for you a second time if she

0:36:530:36:57

didn't appreciate the first time.

I, I...

0:36:570:36:59

One thinks when you have

that opportunity, it is never

0:36:590:37:01

going to happen again so when

it came up again, it was very...

0:37:010:37:04

Very humbling and amazing.

0:37:040:37:07

And she, she's

such a willing subject.

0:37:070:37:10

I mean, this is just,

the other thing is, imagine sitting

0:37:100:37:13

for Lucien Freud and that

very strange painting, and,

0:37:130:37:16

you know, when I look

at all the sittings she does,

0:37:160:37:18

she basically understands

that she is the muse

0:37:180:37:20

and she is to sit there

and be interpreted in as many

0:37:200:37:23

different ways as possible.

And, erm, she goes along with it.

0:37:230:37:30

I mean, she's totally giving herself

over to, to your vision.

0:37:300:37:32

You don't like being called

a celebrity photographer.

0:37:320:37:35

No, I can't stand that word.

I just, it just sounds cheap to me.

0:37:350:37:40

I feel like I'm in a long-standing

tradition of portrait photographers,

0:37:400:37:44

especially in these edits

of these books.

0:37:440:37:49

The work is really, erm,

hopefully you can see our time.

0:37:490:37:54

It is a story, you know,

about our time, the people that,

0:37:540:37:57

you know, are making our time

and do things...

0:37:570:38:02

My portraits are about people who,

who either have achieved something

0:38:020:38:08

or, or are doing something

that matters, or...

0:38:080:38:12

An upbeat note to end.

0:38:120:38:13

Annie Leibovitz,

lovely to talk to you.

0:38:130:38:15

OK, thank you.

Thank you very much. Thanks.

0:38:150:38:18

That's almost it.

0:38:180:38:20

We leave you with the man

who was hailed by Elvis Presley

0:38:200:38:23

as the true King of Rock and Roll,

Fats Domino, who died

0:38:230:38:26

yesterday at the age of 89.

Here he is way back in 1956.

0:38:260:38:29

Goodnight.

0:38:290:38:31

# Ain't that a shame

0:38:310:38:34

# My tears fell like rain

0:38:340:38:38

# Ain't that a shame

0:38:380:38:41

# You're the one to blame

0:38:410:38:47

# Oh well, goodbye

0:38:470:38:50

# Although I cry

0:38:500:38:53

# Ain't that a shame

0:38:530:38:57

# My tears fell like rain

0:38:570:39:01

# Ain't that a shame

0:39:010:39:05

# You're the one to blame...#

0:39:050:39:11

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis.

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