15/11/2017 Newsnight


15/11/2017

Emily Maitlis with discussion of what comes next for Zimbabwe, Mark Zuckerberg's plans for the US presidency, Brexit manoeuvres and the deaf singer getting death threats.


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Transcript


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We wish to make it abundantly clear

that this is not a military

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takeover of government.

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Tonight, the dictator

who said he wanted to live

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to 100 and rule for life

is stuck in his house.

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Is Mugabe's regime at an end?

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And what happens to Zimbabwe now?

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We'll ask two Zimbabweans with very

different perspectives,

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and later the Africa

Minister, Rory Stewart.

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Also tonight - is Mark Zuckerberg's

tour of middle America a clue

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to Presidential ambition?

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And if so, is the world

ready for it?

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Mark Zuckerberg would have a very

good chance of winning the election.

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If it was Mark Zuckerberg on Donald

Trump in 2020?

I'd say it would be

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close.

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And this...

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# And I'll take my place again.

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# If I would try...

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A deaf singer admits

she received death threats

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for entering the hearing world.

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We look at divisions in the deaf

community over speaking and singing.

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Why does it seem like treachery?

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-- betrayal.

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Good evening.

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The Armed forces have seized

power and Zimbabwe's

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President is under house arrest.

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But whatever you do,

don't call it a coup.

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Tonight, we're looking

at what appears to be the end

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of Robert Mugabe's

37 year long reign.

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No one can be sure if he's

been silenced for good.

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The streets appear calm,

the transition appears bloodless.

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The ruling party - Zanu PF -

is still in charge.

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But Zimbabwe is beginning

its hunt for a new leader,

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and the mistake Mugabe

made was in getting rid

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of his Deputy last week -

a man popular and respected

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by Zimbabwe Veterans.

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Emmerson Mnangagwe is hoping to take

charge of the country.

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He faces opposition from Mugabe's

wife, Grace, who wanted

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to carry on the dynasty herself.

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And there are calls for real

democratic change from MDC

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opposition leader,

Morgan Tsvingirai.

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He was duped out of his election

victory nearly a decade ago -

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can the MDC now claim a right

to rule this once

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prosperous country?

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Here's Mike Thompson.

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Over the last 37 years no one has

dared forth this 93-year-old former

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freedom fighter turned president

from office. But times seem to have

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changed.

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One doesn't want to be in a position

where all of a sudden it you are

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seen as quite worthless.

While many

try to carry on as normal, top

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figures are already jostling to

replace Mugabe, the world will be

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looking at them. The face that

appeared on Zimbabwe state TV last

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night wasn't that of the president,

who has led the country for as long

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as many of his people can remember,

instead looking sternly out of the

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screen was one of Zimbabwe's most

senior army officers.

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We are only targeting criminals

around him who are committing crimes

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that are causing social and economic

suffering in the country, in order

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to bring them to justice.

Firmly in the cross hairs are

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supporters of the President's wife,

Grace Mugabe. Mrs Mugabe, who was

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first wooed by the President while

she was working in his typing Paul

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has her husband's backing to take

over the presidency when the time

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comes.

Go ahead, do it, I don't

care.

The current head of Zimbabwe's

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women's league is believed to have

earned her sociology Ph.D. In two

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months from the University of

Zimbabwe. Evidently a quick learner.

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Mrs Mugabe, who was recently accused

of assaulting a South African model

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with a plug, played a leading role

in getting the previous vice

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president dismissed in 2014.

Recently she set her sights on

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getting rid of the latest vice

president. The general, head of

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Zimbabwe's Armed Forces in a war

veteran himself, has made clear his

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total opposition to the presidency

being given to anyone who wasn't a

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freedom fighter. However, the man

who would, his deposed vice

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president, Emmerson Mnangagwa, who

is now believed to be back in the

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country following the takeover by

the army. Born in 1946, Emmerson

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Mnangagwa is a war veteran just like

the general. He is believed to have

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been part of an elite group of

guerrilla fighters called the

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crocodile gang and has been

nicknamed Crocodile ever since.

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Under his watch in the 1980s, an

estimated 20,000 people viewed as

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opposed to Zanu PF word massacred --

were massacred. In June 2007, the

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Zimbabwe government claimed to have

foiled a coup by soldiers. The

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crocodile claimed he knew nothing of

the alleged plot, which he described

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as stupid. The general seems to

believe that the same word would

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describe anyone who claims his move

last night was a coup. His

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intentions now and not clear but if

he does harbour ambitions for the

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presidency, his CV makes interesting

reading. On the plus side, he has a

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doctorate of philosophy degree in

ethics. On the other, he's been

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accused of being abusive by his

former wife's, profited greatly from

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the Gharbi's controversial land

reform programme and is on a list of

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top officials banned from entering

the USA all EU states. So even if

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President Mugabe's rule is now over,

they're saying its things cannot

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necessarily be said for the

country's problems.

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That was Mike Thomson reporting.

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Fungayi Mabhunu is an anti Mugabe

campaigner and member

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of the Zimbabwe Vigil protest group,

he joins me now.

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Nick Mangwana is from

Zanu PF in London.

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Very nice of you both to come. Nick

Mangwana, if I can start with you.

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We'll Mugabe be back in power, is

this just a pause before he goes

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back into power?

President Mugabe is

still in power, he's the man in

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charge of Zimbabwe officially right

now supply even though he is locked

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in his own home? Even though he is

at home, protected by the army.

Why

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does he need to be protected by the

army?

With Paul for presidential

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guard.

Are you telling me today

nothing has happened, it's not just

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functional to have the state

broadcaster taken over by the army,

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to have tanks on the street and the

president locked in his own home?

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Emily, a lot has happened. But what

has not happened is a coup.

I didn't

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say that stop you on just

establishing that right from the

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start.

Because right now, if you

were to ask anyone who is in charge

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of Zimbabwe, nobody would say, for

example, the general.

Who do you

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think is in charge of Zimbabwe when

you look at it?

From our point, we

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think the army is in charge of

Zimbabwe, because they have been on

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state television.

You are expecting

Mugabe to make a comeback from this?

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As far as we are concerned, we don't

know. There is a lot of uncertainty

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in Zimbabwe as we speak. What we

know is Mugabe is no longer in

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charge, from what we heard last

night.

Is it a good thing the army

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is now in charge, what you think the

next step is?

I think we should

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stress that this is an internal Zanu

PF affair, infighting. Maybe the

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vice president if he wasn't sacked,

we wouldn't be in this position.

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What we want is a transitional

government that is all-inclusive.

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Zanu PF fight to stop Grace Mugabe

from coming to power, isn't it?

It

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is a fight to establish democracy,

to stop blood-letting, it's a fight

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to stop manipulation...

The army is

coming into the street, putting the

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president and what looks like house

arrest to establish democracy, is

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that what you're saying?

As ironic

as it sounds, that is in effect.

You

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would will announce elections? How

was that about democracy?

What's

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been happening in Zimbabwe for the

last two weeks, since the vice

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president was removed from his

position, every person aligned to

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the vice president was being

removed, purged. We are going to

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Congress, a process in December.

You

must be very excited now, this talk

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of democracy, because the man you

don't want in charge is out and

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there is all this talk from the

party of real double casino?

We

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don't believe anything that comes

from Zanu PF. They have deceived and

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hoodwinked us in the past. What

makes you think we believe them now?

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This, at least it from the outside,

is in-house fighting in Zanu PF. The

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people of Zimbabwe, they will only

believe if Zimbabwe have free and

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fair elections, internationally

monitored.

And those aren't coming

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until next year, 2018?

2018 the

elections are due. There is an

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electoral process happening in Zanu

PF which is supposed to happen next

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month. This is when the first Lady

was expected to assume...

Clarify

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things for our viewers. In the

elections in August next year, your

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party could end up in opposition?

You would accept that if you were in

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opposition?

Of course.

It didn't

happen in 2008 when Tsvingirai

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appeared to win that debate, he

didn't end up in power.

He won by

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numbers but we don't do first past

the post in Zimbabwe. We go 50 plus

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one. He didn't meet the threshold.

You are going into this believing

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there will be free and fair

elections within a year, less than a

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year, which could bring the MDC, the

opposition party or anyone else who

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wanted to enter this ballot, into

power?

As far as we are concerned

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right now Zimbabwe needs a

transitional authority that will

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make sure it will revitalise the

country and we want a transitional

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government that is all-inclusive and

we don't want a situation where Zanu

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PF do what they did last time, where

the opposition with in their just as

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the numbers, and they weren't taken

care. We want a situation where the

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opposition is there and Zanu PF. The

corruption and sure that there is no

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nepotism.

What happens if Robert

Mugabe refuses to go or refuses to

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stop being the ruler?

Nobody said

the president should go.

Not stay in

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his house?

He is in his house, he's

always staying in his house, there

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is nothing wrong with the president

being in his house and the houses

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guarded.

You must see how this looks

to the outside world. It's not a

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normal day when you have the army on

the streets and a man who we

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understand it under house arrest,

even if he wants to be in his house,

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and his wife who may or may not have

fled the country to find amnesty

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elsewhere, this is not a normal day

in Zimbabwe?

There is nothing normal

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about what is happening in Zimbabwe

at the moment, that is established.

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Cannot I respond about the

transitional authority? What he's

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asking for is exactly what people

would complain... That is is this

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edition of the Constitution. In the

constitution there was no reference

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at all to a transitional authority.

There is a process, if you want to

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get rid of President midterm you can

impeach him. He can resign. If

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President Mugabe chooses tomorrow...

The army, if they took a bit of his

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pal, he can go. That's fine, the

president goes on we go into

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elections. At the moment Zanu PF has

to give Zimbabwe the next president.

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Thank you both very much indeed for

coming in.

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Robert Mugabe's stated

aim is to live to 100,

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and rule for life.

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This overweening ambition

would sound far fetched

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in the mouths of most.

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Zimbabwe's leader, though,

has pretty much done it.

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After 37 consecutive years in power,

despite his brutal regime

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and his country's decent

into poverty, he still clings on.

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His ruthlessness at the age of 93,

has been unwavering.

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He took Zimbabwe after Independence

when it was prosperous,

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and brought it to the brink

of economic collapse -

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more than once.

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Tonight, then...

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For the first time in decades,

there is some real uncertainty

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about his future...

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So will this really spell the end

of the Mugabe regime?

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And how will history judge him?

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Here's John Sweeney.

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There was a time when Robert Mugabe

seem to be a hero, a freedom fighter

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for black majority power in white

ruled Rhodesia. That was when Mugabe

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was in jail and this man, Ian Smith,

was in power.

I don't believe in

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black majority rule ever in

Rhodesia.

Not in 1000 years. Mugabe,

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born in 1924, became a Marxist as a

young man and joined the freedom

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struggle. In 1963 he was convicted

for sedition and spent 12 years in

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jail. While there, his son died.

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And he never forgave

the prison authorities for not

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letting him attend his funeral.

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On his release, he became the hard

man of the nationalist struggle, his

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rhetoric terrifying the country's

whites.

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It's hard to get up here, dear.

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You have to wait for convoys.

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I'm waiting for my independence!

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Civil war followed,

in which thousands died.

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Some of the dead were fellow freedom

fighters, believed to have been

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killed on the orders

of an increasingly

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paranoid Robert Mugabe.

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But to many on the left,

he was an icon.

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To me, as an anti-apartheid

activist, Robert Mugabe

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was a liberation hero.

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I was ecstatic when he was elected

by a landslide in 1980.

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Against the old racist

regime of Ian Smith.

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That view later changed

dramatically.

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At the Lancaster House

talks in London in 1979,

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Mrs Thatcher pushed Smith

to step down.

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Rhodesia became Zimbabwe,

elections followed and the white

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tyrant metamorphosed

into a black one.

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To begin with, he sounded

as nice as pie.

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This evening, Mr Mugabe made

a television address

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in which he underlined his wish

to create one multiracial society.

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It must be realised, however,

that a state of peace and security

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can only be achieved

by our determination, all of us,

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to be bound by the explicit

requirements of peace contained

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in the Lancaster House Agreement.

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Which expressed the general desire

of the people of Zimbabwe.

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But this is a mass grave

in Matabeleland where in the early

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1980s the infamous 5th Brigade,

trained by North Korean instructors,

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murdered as many as 20,000 people.

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Mugabe's first wife died

and he married his secretary,

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Grace Marufu, in 1996.

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She became a power

beside the throne.

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As the decades rolled by,

life in Zimbabwe got bleaker

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for black and white alike.

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The currency crashed and the $100

trillion note was minted.

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Food ran scarce and opposition

leader Morgan Tsvangirai threatened

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Mugabe's grip on power.

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In 2007, Tsvangirai got beaten up

but then the old dictator

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proved his cunning by taking

the opposition leader

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into his tent and sidelining him.

0:16:470:16:52

But the great hero of

the freedom struggle -

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whatever happened to him?

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He was seen as the new Zimbabwean

leader, part of the freedom

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struggle, suffered in prison

terribly, suffered very grievous

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family loss as well.

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Were you foolish to think that?

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In retrospect, if you look

at what happened to Mugabe,

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he went seriously bad.

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Not just with his genocide

in Matabeleland, that genocide

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was the start of actually Mugabe

becoming a growing monster.

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To that, one could add that Zimbabwe

is a wonderful country

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brought low by corruption,

hate and paranoia.

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Robert Mugabe is not dead but few

will mourn his passing from power.

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John Swinney.

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Joining me now, Rory Stewart,

Minister of State for Africa.

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From the British government's

perspective, is this a good thing?

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We don't normally think of military

intervention as good but does

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Britain think so?

A lot will depend

on what happens next year, the key

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is to make sure we get to a

genuinely free and fair election and

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as you have heard, Zimbabwe has

incredible potential. One of the

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most educated populations in Africa,

good infrastructure, fertile soil

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and great natural resources so the

key test is not what is happening

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now in the next few hours or days

but whether we can get to a

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situation where there is a good

legitimate government coming out in

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line with the constitution next

year.

What do you do at this stage

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in terms of government relations? Is

anything reinstated? Do you look at

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that again?

The answer is we have to

be patient and careful to find out

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what is happening. As you reported

well, we know from President Zuma of

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South Africa that President Mugabe

appears to be under house arrest and

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there is a lot of waiting to see

what President Mugabe does and as

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you heard, people expect him to step

down and a transition government to

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come in but the key question is

whether we can get the building

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blocks in place. I mean the

international community, the African

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Union, the Southern African regional

body and the UN, to make sure that

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we have in place are free and fair

election.

Forgive me, but even

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before you get the building blocks

in place, you have to decide whether

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you think this is a President that

is right to set? There will be

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neighbouring African countries who

see us turning a blind eye or not

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quite sure whether to endorse or

condemn this, we do not want to say

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every time the military comes in,

that is fine and we will wait to see

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what the building blocks are?

You

are absolutely right. The key thing,

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and the African Union has been very

clear, is to watch carefully what is

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going on and Africa has had a bad

history of this stuff and making

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sure that everything that happens is

constitutional and clear is vital.

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He will have heard that the military

has been poor. Are to emphasise that

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civilian leadership remains in place

and some sort of unity government is

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being brought together. But again,

this is also, potentially, with all

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of the confusion, a moment of

opportunity for some as this

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progression goes through, Zimbabwe

has been in a difficult position and

0:20:280:20:32

if the international community can

agree, we might be able to move to a

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good future. If we don't get this

right, we could see Zimbabwe stuck

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in a difficult situation for years.

Would you say you would like to see

0:20:410:20:49

the MDC in power? Knowing what you

do about the way Zanu-PF runs and

0:20:490:20:53

regs election results?

Absolutely

clear that it must be up to the

0:20:530:20:59

people. Nothing would be more

dangerous than for a British

0:20:590:21:02

minister to say that I want a

particular party to win. The key is

0:21:020:21:06

to Banks Road the election works and

that means international observers

0:21:060:21:09

and an independent Electoral

Commission and proper registration

0:21:090:21:14

of voters so that people can choose.

You heard my guests saying that

0:21:140:21:19

Mugabe is still in power, this is

dressed up as changed and they think

0:21:190:21:25

nothing has happened.

That is the

key, Mugabe staying in power is very

0:21:250:21:31

disturbing, he has had a terrible

record and has done an enormous

0:21:310:21:35

amount of wreck -- damage to the

country, thousands have died, there

0:21:350:21:40

was hyperinflation so there has to

be a transition away from Robert

0:21:400:21:44

Mugabe but any transition has to be

through a process that creates a

0:21:440:21:47

credible, legitimate government.

There is so much economic reform

0:21:470:21:51

that is needed, millions of

Zimbabweans who would want to return

0:21:510:21:56

and contribute to the future of the

country so the key is using this

0:21:560:22:01

opportunity to say, this may be the

beginning of a change but it is very

0:22:010:22:04

much only the beginning. The key is,

well those elections be held as they

0:22:040:22:10

should be between February and

August, and will they be clean?

You

0:22:100:22:15

mentioned the delicacy of a British

minister in this position, you know

0:22:150:22:19

the Middle East well and you are

careful with your choice of words, I

0:22:190:22:22

wonder what you said to Boris

Johnson about his appalling choice

0:22:220:22:32

of words that may have cost a

British mother in Iran five more

0:22:320:22:35

years of freedom?

I saw the Foreign

Secretary this morning and he had a

0:22:350:22:38

very serious and warm meeting with

the family and he is very determined

0:22:380:22:41

to pull out every stop to solve that

situation but I am the Africa

0:22:410:22:46

Minister and not Middle East but my

sense is that meeting went very well

0:22:460:22:50

and the family feels grateful that

the Foreign Secretary is engaging so

0:22:500:22:53

closely.

Thank you.

0:22:530:22:58

More than two billion people

worldwide use Facebook,

0:22:580:23:00

but not all of us are feeling

so good about it these days.

0:23:000:23:03

Not only is it under fire

for its unwitting involvement

0:23:030:23:05

in the spread of fake news,

but early investors have in the past

0:23:050:23:09

week condemned the impact it's

having on our mental health.

0:23:090:23:11

Could this explain why its founder,

Mark Zuckerberg, has engaged

0:23:110:23:13

on a year long meet-the-people tour,

trying to hear concerns

0:23:130:23:16

and conversations around America?

0:23:160:23:18

Some are reading his

moves as the beginning

0:23:180:23:20

of a Presidential bid.

0:23:200:23:22

I interviewed Mark Zuckerberg

at Facebook six years ago and now

0:23:220:23:25

I've gone back to the States

to follow in his footsteps.

0:23:250:23:31

I've left the capital

for the Midwest.

0:23:340:23:40

In Newton Falls, Ohio,

I'm following in the footsteps

0:23:400:23:42

of a certain billionaire.

0:23:420:23:47

My wife will love it...

0:23:470:23:50

I arrive for breakfast with Daniel,

an Obama supporter who voted

0:23:500:23:52

for Trump eight years on.

0:23:520:23:55

I'm the second complete stranger

who's turned up for a meal

0:23:550:24:02

at his home recently -

the first was Zuckerberg.

0:24:020:24:04

Mark coming in and sitting

where you're sitting and saying,

0:24:040:24:06

you're probably all wondering why

I'm here?

0:24:060:24:08

And I'm like, yeah, I did wonder

that, Mark, you know?

0:24:080:24:15

And yeah, that's when he told me

he's on this cross-country tour

0:24:150:24:19

and getting out and talking,

wanting to connect with people

0:24:190:24:22

and talk with them, getting

to know people better.

0:24:220:24:28

The drop-in at Daniel's was part

of Zuckerberg's self-styled

0:24:280:24:31

year of travel project,

to the 30 US states he's never seen.

0:24:310:24:37

These meet the people truck stops

have been interpreted by some

0:24:370:24:40

as a putative presidential bid.

0:24:400:24:41

His team told Daniel

that would be wrong.

0:24:410:24:43

Just relax, he says,

you can talk to anybody you want.

0:24:430:24:49

Just make sure you emphasise

the fact that Mark is not running

0:24:490:24:52

for president in 2020.

0:24:520:24:53

That's funny.

0:24:530:24:56

Ben Soskis has been studying

Zuckerberg's philanthropic activity.

0:24:560:24:59

Does he see it as political?

0:24:590:25:02

I do not necessarily think it means

he's running for president.

0:25:020:25:06

I think these days, the blurring

of the balance between the political

0:25:060:25:12

and the philanthropic means

that the demands on a philanthropist

0:25:120:25:16

to actually understand his public,

so to speak, are similar

0:25:160:25:19

to a national politician.

0:25:190:25:21

Everything he does now

is essentially political.

0:25:210:25:26

His philanthropic ambitions

and his commercial corporate

0:25:260:25:28

ambitions are now political.

0:25:280:25:32

One doesn't have to run

for public office to be

0:25:320:25:35

a deeply political figure.

0:25:350:25:41

When we launched the Chan

Zuckerberg Initiative...

0:25:410:25:44

Two years ago Mark and his wife

launched CZI, a limited liability

0:25:440:25:47

company that offers enormous

flexibility and demands very

0:25:470:25:49

little transparency.

0:25:490:25:52

Ben thinks the private power

of these wealthy philanthropists

0:25:520:25:58

is of huge concern.

0:25:580:25:59

I feel that in many cases

Mark Zuckerberg is probably

0:25:590:26:02

doing very good work,

but one individual is able

0:26:020:26:06

to have an oversized

impact on public policy,

0:26:060:26:09

and well beyond what

a normal citizen can have.

0:26:090:26:14

There is something profoundly

troubling about that,

0:26:140:26:17

something that runs counter to some

core democratic,

0:26:170:26:20

egalitarian principles.

0:26:200:26:23

When I met Zuckerberg all those

years ago, his mission was one

0:26:230:26:27

of technological utopia.

0:26:270:26:30

He embodied a youthful optimism

that the world wanted to share

0:26:300:26:33

recipes and running routes,

baby photos and pet videos.

0:26:330:26:36

Everyone is going to have a much

better experience when they're doing

0:26:360:26:39

different things with their friends.

0:26:390:26:41

From a dorm room in Harvard,

he created the outstanding economic

0:26:410:26:43

success story of this century -

a social media giant

0:26:430:26:47

with two billion active users,

or what may be a third of the world

0:26:470:26:50

within another year.

0:26:500:26:52

He could never have imagined that

sharing would evolve

0:26:520:26:55

into something quite so dark.

0:26:550:26:58

There's breaking news on Facebook's

involvement with Russian influence

0:26:580:27:00

in the 2016 presidential...

0:27:000:27:02

CBS News has learned new information

about the extent of Russian linked

0:27:020:27:05

activities on Facebook.

0:27:050:27:06

Facebook admitting they were paid

more than $100,000 by Russian

0:27:060:27:09

companies during the election.

0:27:090:27:12

I made some decisions

on the next steps that we're

0:27:120:27:14

going to be taking...

0:27:140:27:15

Mark Zuckerberg returned

from paternity leave and was forced

0:27:150:27:18

to make a public statement.

0:27:180:27:19

I care deeply about

the democratic process

0:27:190:27:21

and protecting its integrity.

0:27:210:27:24

Facebook's mission is all

about giving people a voice

0:27:240:27:26

and bringing people closer together.

0:27:260:27:29

Those are democratic values

and we're proud of them.

0:27:290:27:32

I don't want anyone to use our tools

to undermine democracy.

0:27:320:27:39

But just this month,

lawmakers in a Senate committee

0:27:390:27:42

hearing were telling the tech giants

they're out of touch.

0:27:420:27:46

I don't think you get it.

0:27:460:27:49

You bear this responsibility,

you've created these platforms,

0:27:490:27:52

and now they are being misused

and you have to be the ones

0:27:520:27:56

to do something about it.

0:27:560:28:00

But some have noticed a shift.

0:28:000:28:02

Where once Zuckerberg

talked of connectivity,

0:28:020:28:04

now he talks about community.

0:28:040:28:07

Is this a move to make the company

sound less techy, more human?

0:28:070:28:12

He and the other

internet billionaires

0:28:120:28:15

are the new robber barons.

0:28:150:28:17

And just like the robber barons

of old, who were challenged

0:28:170:28:19

by people who said, this is bad

for democracy, to have so few people

0:28:190:28:23

with so much money in power,

well what did the robber barons do?

0:28:230:28:26

They started to build

libraries and museums to say,

0:28:260:28:28

we're doing good for society.

0:28:280:28:29

They really want to see themselves

as sort of Promethean figures

0:28:290:28:33

who are remaking society.

0:28:330:28:35

All this language of disruption,

of breaking things,

0:28:350:28:38

of remaking the world.

0:28:380:28:41

I think that he has

a very grand ambition.

0:28:410:28:44

So now I'm wondering

if this mission has taken

0:28:440:28:47

on a more pressing dimension,

a way to get the public

0:28:470:28:49

back on Facebook's side.

0:28:490:28:52

Mark Zuckerberg has 98 million

friends on Facebook.

0:28:520:28:59

In person, he can clearly impress.

0:28:590:29:01

I was very nervous,

but he put us all at ease.

0:29:010:29:03

He's just like, I almost

felt like I was talking

0:29:030:29:06

to my little brother, you know?

0:29:060:29:07

I didn't feel...

0:29:070:29:08

At first I was nervous

as heck, you know?

0:29:080:29:10

Like my goodness,

because he's a billionaire.

0:29:100:29:12

But I'm still curious to know

if a swing voter like Daniel

0:29:120:29:15

will come with me on a hypothetical.

0:29:150:29:17

Mark Zuckerberg would have a very

good chance of winning the election.

0:29:170:29:20

So if it was between Donald Trump

and Mark Zuckerberg

0:29:200:29:22

in 2020, which way you go?

0:29:220:29:24

I was asked that question before,

and I'm going to say

0:29:240:29:27

it would be close.

0:29:270:29:36

Last night we showed you a stark

headline on the front page of the

0:29:360:29:40

Telegraph. That has been making some

waves today.

0:29:400:29:42

Our political editor

Nick Watt is here.

0:29:420:29:44

What are you hearing, Nick?

0:29:440:29:46

Quite a backlash against it. Leading

Brexiteers said this is absolutely

0:29:460:29:49

wrong. Some of those 15 named their

feel emboldened. I spoke to on this

0:29:490:29:54

evening that said the idea that

prompted this is dead in the water,

0:29:540:29:57

and that is the government's

decision to amend this bill to put

0:29:570:30:02

the date of Brexit, 29th of March

2019 on the face of the bill. My

0:30:020:30:08

impression is the government is

listening. One option is they pull

0:30:080:30:11

that amendment. I think what you are

probably

0:30:110:30:23

looking at is some sort of

compromise. This was debated

0:30:230:30:25

yesterday. It won't be voted on,

this amendment, and further down the

0:30:250:30:28

line. The compromise could be you

have a date there but you have the

0:30:280:30:31

words in accordance with Article 50,

which means you could get an

0:30:310:30:33

extension. But it has really created

a bit of a sour atmosphere. It is

0:30:330:30:36

even getting into government ranks.

I spoke to one member of the

0:30:360:30:38

government who said the Prime

Minister's letter accompanying this

0:30:380:30:42

Friday had poisoned the well because

in that letter the Prime Minister

0:30:420:30:45

had said, I will not tolerate trying

to block or slow down Brexit.

Thank

0:30:450:30:51

you very much.

0:30:510:30:54

Mandy Harvey, a deaf singer

with an incredible voice,

0:30:550:30:57

made headlines around the world

after her success on

0:30:570:30:59

America's Got Talent.

0:30:590:31:01

She used vibrations from the floor

to pick up the beat,

0:31:010:31:03

although she could hear nothing.

0:31:030:31:05

And what's your name?

0:31:050:31:06

Mandy Harvey.

0:31:060:31:09

And who is this?

0:31:090:31:10

My interpreter.

0:31:100:31:12

I lost all my hearing

when I was 18 years old.

0:31:120:31:15

Wow!

0:31:150:31:16

And how old are you now?

0:31:160:31:17

I'm 29.

0:31:170:31:18

So it's ten years.

0:31:180:31:22

I have a connective tissue disorder,

so basically I got sick

0:31:220:31:24

and my nerves deteriorated.

0:31:240:31:26

I've been singing since I was four.

0:31:260:31:30

I left music after I lost my hearing

and then I figured out how to get

0:31:300:31:40

back into singing with muscle

memory, using visual tuners

0:31:400:31:42

and trusting my pitch.

0:31:420:31:43

So, your shoes are off because

you're feeling the vibration?

0:31:430:31:45

Is that how you're

following the music?

0:31:450:31:47

Yeah, I'm feeling the tempo,

the beat, through the floor.

0:31:470:31:49

Mandy, what are you going to sing?

0:31:490:31:51

I'm going to sing a song

that I wrote called Try.

0:31:510:31:54

After I lost my hearing, I gave up.

0:31:540:31:57

But I want to do more

with my life than just give up.

0:31:570:32:00

APPLAUSE.

0:32:000:32:01

Good for you.

0:32:010:32:05

OK, look, this is your

moment and good luck.

0:32:090:32:11

# I don't feel the way I used to.

0:32:160:32:23

# The sky is grey much

more than it is blue.

0:32:230:32:27

# But I know one day

I'll get through...

0:32:270:32:34

That was the incredible Mandy.

0:32:340:32:37

But when she first took to the stage

she describes how she received death

0:32:370:32:40

threats from within the deaf

community for promoting

0:32:400:32:42

a hearing activity.

0:32:420:32:43

She was accused by some

of promoting 'oralism' -

0:32:430:32:45

the word used to explain

the practice of educating deaf

0:32:450:32:48

people to use speech and lip reading

rather than sign language.

0:32:480:32:51

So tonight, we try and explore

the feelings that lie beneath this.

0:32:510:32:54

Why do some deaf people consider

speech and singing treachery?

0:32:540:32:56

And why is sign language

perceived to be a more pure

0:32:560:32:59

means of communication

and of identity for them?

0:32:590:33:03

Joining me now are Honesty

Willoughby and Zoe McWhinney.

0:33:030:33:05

They're speaking

through an interpreter.

0:33:050:33:07

They're flatmates but they have

different perspectives.

0:33:070:33:13

Many thanks for coming in to join

us. What did you make of this row,

0:33:130:33:20

Zoe?

In terms of the death threats,

really, in the American deaf

0:33:200:33:30

community, it is showing that

they're quite frustrated, an element

0:33:300:33:33

of people there who are quite

frustrated. There is an

0:33:330:33:37

organisation. They are based in

America and they are very, very

0:33:370:33:41

strongly termed, their name is AGB

and their promotion of oralism is

0:33:410:33:46

very strong. They lie about their

research and really deaf people are

0:33:460:33:51

fed up. Hearing people think oralism

is the way forward and it's positive

0:33:510:33:58

but deaf people are fed up with it.

Honestly.

For me, linking to that,

0:33:580:34:05

I'm quite disappointed with what

happened. I'm disappointed with the

0:34:050:34:08

news and how it represented the deaf

community and sending death threats

0:34:080:34:14

that, that's not deaf community.

It's a negative representation of us

0:34:140:34:18

as a whole.

Eder want to talk about

the death threats. Leaving that to

0:34:180:34:22

one side, do you understand where

this sense of discomfort comes from,

0:34:220:34:28

betrayal and even, that deaf people

are this word, oralist, using

0:34:280:34:33

singing or speaking instead of a

pure red language of sign? Zoe?

0:34:330:34:38

I think in America, in America's Got

Talent, that programme, with that

0:34:410:34:47

individual with her beautiful voice

which was spectacular, and deaf

0:34:470:34:53

people who don't know sign language,

they don't know exactly... They

0:34:530:34:58

didn't know that this individual was

not born deaf, she lost her hearing,

0:34:580:35:03

she became deaf. So people

immediately recognised her and say,

0:35:030:35:09

you are deaf. It's that same

scenario of repeating itself again.

0:35:090:35:13

Singing for us is not accessible.

OK, so signing is a pure form for

0:35:130:35:21

you in the deaf community of

communicating because it is a world

0:35:210:35:24

you are always part of all the time,

is that the point?

In terms of there

0:35:240:35:34

being a border between hearing and

signing, there's always that element

0:35:340:35:39

of gesture and visualisation. With

sign language, deaf people, that's

0:35:390:35:48

how we access communication. English

speech, sap banished speech, French

0:35:480:35:57

speech, that's their form of

communication of course, and also...

0:35:570:36:00

There's been misinformation about

oralism which is being spread all

0:36:000:36:05

over the world. What about sign

language? We need a little bit more

0:36:050:36:09

focus on that and more awareness on

that and the importance of sign

0:36:090:36:12

language.

Can I ask a question...

Honesty, you were born into a

0:36:120:36:18

speaking and hearing family. Your

mother chose not to teach you

0:36:180:36:24

through oral language but to sign

instead, how did she make that

0:36:240:36:27

decision?

Well, when I was born...

Of course when I was growing up I

0:36:270:36:35

didn't know anything about the deaf

community. And going through the

0:36:350:36:41

medical experience, I was told that

I should learn through oralism but

0:36:410:36:44

sign language is my right, that is

my language. My family, my mother

0:36:440:36:51

was advised I should be taught to

speak. But my mother looked into it,

0:36:510:36:57

she did her own research and

refused. And found out that there is

0:36:570:37:03

a deaf community, and they learn

sign language and that is accessible

0:37:030:37:08

for me and I have my own language

and its full access for myself.

From

0:37:080:37:13

the outside, for people not familiar

with the deaf community, I'm sure

0:37:130:37:17

there will be many saying, it's

great to have signing, why wouldn't

0:37:170:37:20

you add in speaking if you can,

singing if you can, lip-reading if

0:37:200:37:25

you can as well? Why wouldn't you

have the richest experience you

0:37:250:37:29

possibly can?

Yes, bilingualism,

that's good.

You agree, do you, Zoe?

0:37:290:37:41

I think in terms of speech and sign,

its dual language, quite difficult.

0:37:410:37:46

There are some people that can do

that quite well. But to do that at

0:37:460:37:51

the same time, it's impossible,

because you lose focus on one

0:37:510:37:55

language. In terms of the grammar,

the context, the syntax, everything

0:37:550:37:59

that is linked that creates the

language is totally different. It's

0:37:590:38:02

a like putting your head and rubbing

your stomach, doing two things at

0:38:020:38:06

the same time.

Does it feel like a

political choice for you within the

0:38:060:38:13

deaf community to say signing is my

identity, it is my deaf identity and

0:38:130:38:17

I don't want the confusion of

anything else?

Yes and no. I think

0:38:170:38:27

with sign language, it is becoming

quite a political issue. It's not an

0:38:270:38:34

issue of saying I can't speak, it's

saying I don't speak. Because they

0:38:340:38:42

hearing community, it's quite

powerful. And, of course, with

0:38:420:38:50

technology, implants and things like

that, and with that sort of research

0:38:500:38:54

in place, people can understand the

theory is that deaf people might be

0:38:540:38:57

able to speak but we need to also

show awareness that speech can

0:38:570:39:02

happen. For example, my family is

deaf, they all sign and sign

0:39:020:39:09

language exists in the wider

community as well. I mean, with

0:39:090:39:16

hearing people, they've got eyes and

hands, they can learn.

Honesty and

0:39:160:39:21

Zoe, thank you both very much indeed

and thank you for interpreting for

0:39:210:39:24

us.

0:39:240:39:26

That's it for tonight.

0:39:260:39:27

We leave you with the first

ever actual video of

0:39:270:39:30

a scientific superstar.

0:39:300:39:32

Crisper is the tool that lets

scientists slice through DNA

0:39:320:39:34

to disable genes or insert new ones.

0:39:340:39:36

It's currently the hottest topic

in biology, but you couldn't

0:39:360:39:38

actually ever see the process

because it all happens

0:39:380:39:41

at a molecular level.

0:39:410:39:45

Enter Professor Osamu Nureki

of the university of Tokyo,

0:39:450:39:47

and his high-speed atomic-force

microscopic camera.

0:39:470:39:49

Goodnight.

0:39:490:39:51

MUSIC: It Ain't What You Do (It's

the Way That You Do It).

0:39:550:40:05

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