15/11/2017 Newsnight

We wish to make it abundantly clear

that this is not a military

takeover of government.

Tonight, the dictator

who said he wanted to live

to 100 and rule for life

is stuck in his house.

Is Mugabe's regime at an end?

And what happens to Zimbabwe now?

We'll ask two Zimbabweans with very

different perspectives,

and later the Africa

Minister, Rory Stewart.

Also tonight - is Mark Zuckerberg's

tour of middle America a clue

to Presidential ambition?

And if so, is the world

ready for it?

Mark Zuckerberg would have a very

good chance of winning the election.

If it was Mark Zuckerberg on Donald

Trump in 2020?

I'd say it would be

close.

And this...

# And I'll take my place again.

# If I would try...

A deaf singer admits

she received death threats

for entering the hearing world.

We look at divisions in the deaf

community over speaking and singing.

Why does it seem like treachery?

-- betrayal.

Good evening.

The Armed forces have seized

power and Zimbabwe's

President is under house arrest.

But whatever you do,

don't call it a coup.

Tonight, we're looking

at what appears to be the end

of Robert Mugabe's

37 year long reign.

No one can be sure if he's

been silenced for good.

The streets appear calm,

the transition appears bloodless.

The ruling party - Zanu PF -

is still in charge.

But Zimbabwe is beginning

its hunt for a new leader,

and the mistake Mugabe

made was in getting rid

of his Deputy last week -

a man popular and respected

by Zimbabwe Veterans.

Emmerson Mnangagwe is hoping to take

charge of the country.

He faces opposition from Mugabe's

wife, Grace, who wanted

to carry on the dynasty herself.

And there are calls for real

democratic change from MDC

opposition leader,

Morgan Tsvingirai.

He was duped out of his election

victory nearly a decade ago -

can the MDC now claim a right

to rule this once

prosperous country?

Here's Mike Thompson.

Over the last 37 years no one has

dared forth this 93-year-old former

freedom fighter turned president

from office. But times seem to have

changed.

One doesn't want to be in a position

where all of a sudden it you are

seen as quite worthless.

While many

try to carry on as normal, top

figures are already jostling to

replace Mugabe, the world will be

looking at them. The face that

appeared on Zimbabwe state TV last

night wasn't that of the president,

who has led the country for as long

as many of his people can remember,

instead looking sternly out of the

screen was one of Zimbabwe's most

senior army officers.

We are only targeting criminals

around him who are committing crimes

that are causing social and economic

suffering in the country, in order

to bring them to justice.

Firmly in the cross hairs are

supporters of the President's wife,

Grace Mugabe. Mrs Mugabe, who was

first wooed by the President while

she was working in his typing Paul

has her husband's backing to take

over the presidency when the time

comes.

Go ahead, do it, I don't

care.

The current head of Zimbabwe's

women's league is believed to have

earned her sociology Ph.D. In two

months from the University of

Zimbabwe. Evidently a quick learner.

Mrs Mugabe, who was recently accused

of assaulting a South African model

with a plug, played a leading role

in getting the previous vice

president dismissed in 2014.

Recently she set her sights on

getting rid of the latest vice

president. The general, head of

Zimbabwe's Armed Forces in a war

veteran himself, has made clear his

total opposition to the presidency

being given to anyone who wasn't a

freedom fighter. However, the man

who would, his deposed vice

president, Emmerson Mnangagwa, who

is now believed to be back in the

country following the takeover by

the army. Born in 1946, Emmerson

Mnangagwa is a war veteran just like

the general. He is believed to have

been part of an elite group of

guerrilla fighters called the

crocodile gang and has been

nicknamed Crocodile ever since.

Under his watch in the 1980s, an

estimated 20,000 people viewed as

opposed to Zanu PF word massacred --

were massacred. In June 2007, the

Zimbabwe government claimed to have

foiled a coup by soldiers. The

crocodile claimed he knew nothing of

the alleged plot, which he described

as stupid. The general seems to

believe that the same word would

describe anyone who claims his move

last night was a coup. His

intentions now and not clear but if

he does harbour ambitions for the

presidency, his CV makes interesting

reading. On the plus side, he has a

doctorate of philosophy degree in

ethics. On the other, he's been

accused of being abusive by his

former wife's, profited greatly from

the Gharbi's controversial land

reform programme and is on a list of

top officials banned from entering

the USA all EU states. So even if

President Mugabe's rule is now over,

they're saying its things cannot

necessarily be said for the

country's problems.

That was Mike Thomson reporting.

Fungayi Mabhunu is an anti Mugabe

campaigner and member

of the Zimbabwe Vigil protest group,

he joins me now.

Nick Mangwana is from

Zanu PF in London.

Very nice of you both to come. Nick

Mangwana, if I can start with you.

We'll Mugabe be back in power, is

this just a pause before he goes

back into power?

President Mugabe is

still in power, he's the man in

charge of Zimbabwe officially right

now supply even though he is locked

in his own home? Even though he is

at home, protected by the army.

Why

does he need to be protected by the

army?

With Paul for presidential

guard.

Are you telling me today

nothing has happened, it's not just

functional to have the state

broadcaster taken over by the army,

to have tanks on the street and the

president locked in his own home?

Emily, a lot has happened. But what

has not happened is a coup.

I didn't

say that stop you on just

establishing that right from the

start.

Because right now, if you

were to ask anyone who is in charge

of Zimbabwe, nobody would say, for

example, the general.

Who do you

think is in charge of Zimbabwe when

you look at it?

From our point, we

think the army is in charge of

Zimbabwe, because they have been on

state television.

You are expecting

Mugabe to make a comeback from this?

As far as we are concerned, we don't

know. There is a lot of uncertainty

in Zimbabwe as we speak. What we

know is Mugabe is no longer in

charge, from what we heard last

night.

Is it a good thing the army

is now in charge, what you think the

next step is?

I think we should

stress that this is an internal Zanu

PF affair, infighting. Maybe the

vice president if he wasn't sacked,

we wouldn't be in this position.

What we want is a transitional

government that is all-inclusive.

Zanu PF fight to stop Grace Mugabe

from coming to power, isn't it?

It

is a fight to establish democracy,

to stop blood-letting, it's a fight

to stop manipulation...

The army is

coming into the street, putting the

president and what looks like house

arrest to establish democracy, is

that what you're saying?

As ironic

as it sounds, that is in effect.

You

would will announce elections? How

was that about democracy?

What's

been happening in Zimbabwe for the

last two weeks, since the vice

president was removed from his

position, every person aligned to

the vice president was being

removed, purged. We are going to

Congress, a process in December.

You

must be very excited now, this talk

of democracy, because the man you

don't want in charge is out and

there is all this talk from the

party of real double casino?

We

don't believe anything that comes

from Zanu PF. They have deceived and

hoodwinked us in the past. What

makes you think we believe them now?

This, at least it from the outside,

is in-house fighting in Zanu PF. The

people of Zimbabwe, they will only

believe if Zimbabwe have free and

fair elections, internationally

monitored.

And those aren't coming

until next year, 2018?

2018 the

elections are due. There is an

electoral process happening in Zanu

PF which is supposed to happen next

month. This is when the first Lady

was expected to assume...

Clarify

things for our viewers. In the

elections in August next year, your

party could end up in opposition?

You would accept that if you were in

opposition?

Of course.

It didn't

happen in 2008 when Tsvingirai

appeared to win that debate, he

didn't end up in power.

He won by

numbers but we don't do first past

the post in Zimbabwe. We go 50 plus

one. He didn't meet the threshold.

You are going into this believing

there will be free and fair

elections within a year, less than a

year, which could bring the MDC, the

opposition party or anyone else who

wanted to enter this ballot, into

power?

As far as we are concerned

right now Zimbabwe needs a

transitional authority that will

make sure it will revitalise the

country and we want a transitional

government that is all-inclusive and

we don't want a situation where Zanu

PF do what they did last time, where

the opposition with in their just as

the numbers, and they weren't taken

care. We want a situation where the

opposition is there and Zanu PF. The

corruption and sure that there is no

nepotism.

What happens if Robert

Mugabe refuses to go or refuses to

stop being the ruler?

Nobody said

the president should go.

Not stay in

his house?

He is in his house, he's

always staying in his house, there

is nothing wrong with the president

being in his house and the houses

guarded.

You must see how this looks

to the outside world. It's not a

normal day when you have the army on

the streets and a man who we

understand it under house arrest,

even if he wants to be in his house,

and his wife who may or may not have

fled the country to find amnesty

elsewhere, this is not a normal day

in Zimbabwe?

There is nothing normal

about what is happening in Zimbabwe

at the moment, that is established.

Cannot I respond about the

transitional authority? What he's

asking for is exactly what people

would complain... That is is this

edition of the Constitution. In the

constitution there was no reference

at all to a transitional authority.

There is a process, if you want to

get rid of President midterm you can

impeach him. He can resign. If

President Mugabe chooses tomorrow...

The army, if they took a bit of his

pal, he can go. That's fine, the

president goes on we go into

elections. At the moment Zanu PF has

to give Zimbabwe the next president.

Thank you both very much indeed for

coming in.

Robert Mugabe's stated

aim is to live to 100,

and rule for life.

This overweening ambition

would sound far fetched

in the mouths of most.

Zimbabwe's leader, though,

has pretty much done it.

After 37 consecutive years in power,

despite his brutal regime

and his country's decent

into poverty, he still clings on.

His ruthlessness at the age of 93,

has been unwavering.

He took Zimbabwe after Independence

when it was prosperous,

and brought it to the brink

of economic collapse -

more than once.

Tonight, then...

For the first time in decades,

there is some real uncertainty

about his future...

So will this really spell the end

of the Mugabe regime?

And how will history judge him?

Here's John Sweeney.

There was a time when Robert Mugabe

seem to be a hero, a freedom fighter

for black majority power in white

ruled Rhodesia. That was when Mugabe

was in jail and this man, Ian Smith,

was in power.

I don't believe in

black majority rule ever in

Rhodesia.

Not in 1000 years. Mugabe,

born in 1924, became a Marxist as a

young man and joined the freedom

struggle. In 1963 he was convicted

for sedition and spent 12 years in

jail. While there, his son died.

And he never forgave

the prison authorities for not

letting him attend his funeral.

On his release, he became the hard

man of the nationalist struggle, his

rhetoric terrifying the country's

whites.

It's hard to get up here, dear.

You have to wait for convoys.

I'm waiting for my independence!

Civil war followed,

in which thousands died.

Some of the dead were fellow freedom

fighters, believed to have been

killed on the orders

of an increasingly

paranoid Robert Mugabe.

But to many on the left,

he was an icon.

To me, as an anti-apartheid

activist, Robert Mugabe

was a liberation hero.

I was ecstatic when he was elected

by a landslide in 1980.

Against the old racist

regime of Ian Smith.

That view later changed

dramatically.

At the Lancaster House

talks in London in 1979,

Mrs Thatcher pushed Smith

to step down.

Rhodesia became Zimbabwe,

elections followed and the white

tyrant metamorphosed

into a black one.

To begin with, he sounded

as nice as pie.

This evening, Mr Mugabe made

a television address

in which he underlined his wish

to create one multiracial society.

It must be realised, however,

that a state of peace and security

can only be achieved

by our determination, all of us,

to be bound by the explicit

requirements of peace contained

in the Lancaster House Agreement.

Which expressed the general desire

of the people of Zimbabwe.

But this is a mass grave

in Matabeleland where in the early

1980s the infamous 5th Brigade,

trained by North Korean instructors,

murdered as many as 20,000 people.

Mugabe's first wife died

and he married his secretary,

Grace Marufu, in 1996.

She became a power

beside the throne.

As the decades rolled by,

life in Zimbabwe got bleaker

for black and white alike.

The currency crashed and the $100

trillion note was minted.

Food ran scarce and opposition

leader Morgan Tsvangirai threatened

Mugabe's grip on power.

In 2007, Tsvangirai got beaten up

but then the old dictator

proved his cunning by taking

the opposition leader

into his tent and sidelining him.

But the great hero of

the freedom struggle -

whatever happened to him?

He was seen as the new Zimbabwean

leader, part of the freedom

struggle, suffered in prison

terribly, suffered very grievous

family loss as well.

Were you foolish to think that?

In retrospect, if you look

at what happened to Mugabe,

he went seriously bad.

Not just with his genocide

in Matabeleland, that genocide

was the start of actually Mugabe

becoming a growing monster.

To that, one could add that Zimbabwe

is a wonderful country

brought low by corruption,

hate and paranoia.

Robert Mugabe is not dead but few

will mourn his passing from power.

John Swinney.

Joining me now, Rory Stewart,

Minister of State for Africa.

From the British government's

perspective, is this a good thing?

We don't normally think of military

intervention as good but does

Britain think so?

A lot will depend

on what happens next year, the key

is to make sure we get to a

genuinely free and fair election and

as you have heard, Zimbabwe has

incredible potential. One of the

most educated populations in Africa,

good infrastructure, fertile soil

and great natural resources so the

key test is not what is happening

now in the next few hours or days

but whether we can get to a

situation where there is a good

legitimate government coming out in

line with the constitution next

year.

What do you do at this stage

in terms of government relations? Is

anything reinstated? Do you look at

that again?

The answer is we have to

be patient and careful to find out

what is happening. As you reported

well, we know from President Zuma of

South Africa that President Mugabe

appears to be under house arrest and

there is a lot of waiting to see

what President Mugabe does and as

you heard, people expect him to step

down and a transition government to

come in but the key question is

whether we can get the building

blocks in place. I mean the

international community, the African

Union, the Southern African regional

body and the UN, to make sure that

we have in place are free and fair

election.

Forgive me, but even

before you get the building blocks

in place, you have to decide whether

you think this is a President that

is right to set? There will be

neighbouring African countries who

see us turning a blind eye or not

quite sure whether to endorse or

condemn this, we do not want to say

every time the military comes in,

that is fine and we will wait to see

what the building blocks are?

You

are absolutely right. The key thing,

and the African Union has been very

clear, is to watch carefully what is

going on and Africa has had a bad

history of this stuff and making

sure that everything that happens is

constitutional and clear is vital.

He will have heard that the military

has been poor. Are to emphasise that

civilian leadership remains in place

and some sort of unity government is

being brought together. But again,

this is also, potentially, with all

of the confusion, a moment of

opportunity for some as this

progression goes through, Zimbabwe

has been in a difficult position and

if the international community can

agree, we might be able to move to a

good future. If we don't get this

right, we could see Zimbabwe stuck

in a difficult situation for years.

Would you say you would like to see

the MDC in power? Knowing what you

do about the way Zanu-PF runs and

regs election results?

Absolutely

clear that it must be up to the

people. Nothing would be more

dangerous than for a British

minister to say that I want a

particular party to win. The key is

to Banks Road the election works and

that means international observers

and an independent Electoral

Commission and proper registration

of voters so that people can choose.

You heard my guests saying that

Mugabe is still in power, this is

dressed up as changed and they think

nothing has happened.

That is the

key, Mugabe staying in power is very

disturbing, he has had a terrible

record and has done an enormous

amount of wreck -- damage to the

country, thousands have died, there

was hyperinflation so there has to

be a transition away from Robert

Mugabe but any transition has to be

through a process that creates a

credible, legitimate government.

There is so much economic reform

that is needed, millions of

Zimbabweans who would want to return

and contribute to the future of the

country so the key is using this

opportunity to say, this may be the

beginning of a change but it is very

much only the beginning. The key is,

well those elections be held as they

should be between February and

August, and will they be clean?

You

mentioned the delicacy of a British

minister in this position, you know

the Middle East well and you are

careful with your choice of words, I

wonder what you said to Boris

Johnson about his appalling choice

of words that may have cost a

British mother in Iran five more

years of freedom?

I saw the Foreign

Secretary this morning and he had a

very serious and warm meeting with

the family and he is very determined

to pull out every stop to solve that

situation but I am the Africa

Minister and not Middle East but my

sense is that meeting went very well

and the family feels grateful that

the Foreign Secretary is engaging so

closely.

Thank you.

More than two billion people

worldwide use Facebook,

but not all of us are feeling

so good about it these days.

Not only is it under fire

for its unwitting involvement

in the spread of fake news,

but early investors have in the past

week condemned the impact it's

having on our mental health.

Could this explain why its founder,

Mark Zuckerberg, has engaged

on a year long meet-the-people tour,

trying to hear concerns

and conversations around America?

Some are reading his

moves as the beginning

of a Presidential bid.

I interviewed Mark Zuckerberg

at Facebook six years ago and now

I've gone back to the States

to follow in his footsteps.

I've left the capital

for the Midwest.

In Newton Falls, Ohio,

I'm following in the footsteps

of a certain billionaire.

My wife will love it...

I arrive for breakfast with Daniel,

an Obama supporter who voted

for Trump eight years on.

I'm the second complete stranger

who's turned up for a meal

at his home recently -

the first was Zuckerberg.

Mark coming in and sitting

where you're sitting and saying,

you're probably all wondering why

I'm here?

And I'm like, yeah, I did wonder

that, Mark, you know?

And yeah, that's when he told me

he's on this cross-country tour

and getting out and talking,

wanting to connect with people

and talk with them, getting

to know people better.

The drop-in at Daniel's was part

of Zuckerberg's self-styled

year of travel project,

to the 30 US states he's never seen.

These meet the people truck stops

have been interpreted by some

as a putative presidential bid.

His team told Daniel

that would be wrong.

Just relax, he says,

you can talk to anybody you want.

Just make sure you emphasise

the fact that Mark is not running

for president in 2020.

That's funny.

Ben Soskis has been studying

Zuckerberg's philanthropic activity.

Does he see it as political?

I do not necessarily think it means

he's running for president.

I think these days, the blurring

of the balance between the political

and the philanthropic means

that the demands on a philanthropist

to actually understand his public,

so to speak, are similar

to a national politician.

Everything he does now

is essentially political.

His philanthropic ambitions

and his commercial corporate

ambitions are now political.

One doesn't have to run

for public office to be

a deeply political figure.

When we launched the Chan

Zuckerberg Initiative...

Two years ago Mark and his wife

launched CZI, a limited liability

company that offers enormous

flexibility and demands very

little transparency.

Ben thinks the private power

of these wealthy philanthropists

is of huge concern.

I feel that in many cases

Mark Zuckerberg is probably

doing very good work,

but one individual is able

to have an oversized

impact on public policy,

and well beyond what

a normal citizen can have.

There is something profoundly

troubling about that,

something that runs counter to some

core democratic,

egalitarian principles.

When I met Zuckerberg all those

years ago, his mission was one

of technological utopia.

He embodied a youthful optimism

that the world wanted to share

recipes and running routes,

baby photos and pet videos.

Everyone is going to have a much

better experience when they're doing

different things with their friends.

From a dorm room in Harvard,

he created the outstanding economic

success story of this century -

a social media giant

with two billion active users,

or what may be a third of the world

within another year.

He could never have imagined that

sharing would evolve

into something quite so dark.

There's breaking news on Facebook's

involvement with Russian influence

in the 2016 presidential...

CBS News has learned new information

about the extent of Russian linked

activities on Facebook.

Facebook admitting they were paid

more than $100,000 by Russian

companies during the election.

I made some decisions

on the next steps that we're

going to be taking...

Mark Zuckerberg returned

from paternity leave and was forced

to make a public statement.

I care deeply about

the democratic process

and protecting its integrity.

Facebook's mission is all

about giving people a voice

and bringing people closer together.

Those are democratic values

and we're proud of them.

I don't want anyone to use our tools

to undermine democracy.

But just this month,

lawmakers in a Senate committee

hearing were telling the tech giants

they're out of touch.

I don't think you get it.

You bear this responsibility,

you've created these platforms,

and now they are being misused

and you have to be the ones

to do something about it.

But some have noticed a shift.

Where once Zuckerberg

talked of connectivity,

now he talks about community.

Is this a move to make the company

sound less techy, more human?

He and the other

internet billionaires

are the new robber barons.

And just like the robber barons

of old, who were challenged

by people who said, this is bad

for democracy, to have so few people

with so much money in power,

well what did the robber barons do?

They started to build

libraries and museums to say,

we're doing good for society.

They really want to see themselves

as sort of Promethean figures

who are remaking society.

All this language of disruption,

of breaking things,

of remaking the world.

I think that he has

a very grand ambition.

So now I'm wondering

if this mission has taken

on a more pressing dimension,

a way to get the public

back on Facebook's side.

Mark Zuckerberg has 98 million

friends on Facebook.

In person, he can clearly impress.

I was very nervous,

but he put us all at ease.

He's just like, I almost

felt like I was talking

to my little brother, you know?

I didn't feel...

At first I was nervous

as heck, you know?

Like my goodness,

because he's a billionaire.

But I'm still curious to know

if a swing voter like Daniel

will come with me on a hypothetical.

Mark Zuckerberg would have a very

good chance of winning the election.

So if it was between Donald Trump

and Mark Zuckerberg

in 2020, which way you go?

I was asked that question before,

and I'm going to say

it would be close.

Last night we showed you a stark

headline on the front page of the

Telegraph. That has been making some

waves today.

Our political editor

Nick Watt is here.

What are you hearing, Nick?

Quite a backlash against it. Leading

Brexiteers said this is absolutely

wrong. Some of those 15 named their

feel emboldened. I spoke to on this

evening that said the idea that

prompted this is dead in the water,

and that is the government's

decision to amend this bill to put

the date of Brexit, 29th of March

2019 on the face of the bill. My

impression is the government is

listening. One option is they pull

that amendment. I think what you are

probably

looking at is some sort of

compromise. This was debated

yesterday. It won't be voted on,

this amendment, and further down the

line. The compromise could be you

have a date there but you have the

words in accordance with Article 50,

which means you could get an

extension. But it has really created

a bit of a sour atmosphere. It is

even getting into government ranks.

I spoke to one member of the

government who said the Prime

Minister's letter accompanying this

Friday had poisoned the well because

in that letter the Prime Minister

had said, I will not tolerate trying

to block or slow down Brexit.

Thank

you very much.

Mandy Harvey, a deaf singer

with an incredible voice,

made headlines around the world

after her success on

America's Got Talent.

She used vibrations from the floor

to pick up the beat,

although she could hear nothing.

And what's your name?

Mandy Harvey.

And who is this?

My interpreter.

I lost all my hearing

when I was 18 years old.

Wow!

And how old are you now?

I'm 29.

So it's ten years.

I have a connective tissue disorder,

so basically I got sick

and my nerves deteriorated.

I've been singing since I was four.

I left music after I lost my hearing

and then I figured out how to get

back into singing with muscle

memory, using visual tuners

and trusting my pitch.

So, your shoes are off because

you're feeling the vibration?

Is that how you're

following the music?

Yeah, I'm feeling the tempo,

the beat, through the floor.

Mandy, what are you going to sing?

I'm going to sing a song

that I wrote called Try.

After I lost my hearing, I gave up.

But I want to do more

with my life than just give up.

APPLAUSE.

Good for you.

OK, look, this is your

moment and good luck.

# I don't feel the way I used to.

# The sky is grey much

more than it is blue.

# But I know one day

I'll get through...

That was the incredible Mandy.

But when she first took to the stage

she describes how she received death

threats from within the deaf

community for promoting

a hearing activity.

She was accused by some

of promoting 'oralism' -

the word used to explain

the practice of educating deaf

people to use speech and lip reading

rather than sign language.

So tonight, we try and explore

the feelings that lie beneath this.

Why do some deaf people consider

speech and singing treachery?

And why is sign language

perceived to be a more pure

means of communication

and of identity for them?

Joining me now are Honesty

Willoughby and Zoe McWhinney.

They're speaking

through an interpreter.

They're flatmates but they have

different perspectives.

Many thanks for coming in to join

us. What did you make of this row,

Zoe?

In terms of the death threats,

really, in the American deaf

community, it is showing that

they're quite frustrated, an element

of people there who are quite

frustrated. There is an

organisation. They are based in

America and they are very, very

strongly termed, their name is AGB

and their promotion of oralism is

very strong. They lie about their

research and really deaf people are

fed up. Hearing people think oralism

is the way forward and it's positive

but deaf people are fed up with it.

Honestly.

For me, linking to that,

I'm quite disappointed with what

happened. I'm disappointed with the

news and how it represented the deaf

community and sending death threats

that, that's not deaf community.

It's a negative representation of us

as a whole.

Eder want to talk about

the death threats. Leaving that to

one side, do you understand where

this sense of discomfort comes from,

betrayal and even, that deaf people

are this word, oralist, using

singing or speaking instead of a

pure red language of sign? Zoe?

I think in America, in America's Got

Talent, that programme, with that

individual with her beautiful voice

which was spectacular, and deaf

people who don't know sign language,

they don't know exactly... They

didn't know that this individual was

not born deaf, she lost her hearing,

she became deaf. So people

immediately recognised her and say,

you are deaf. It's that same

scenario of repeating itself again.

Singing for us is not accessible.

OK, so signing is a pure form for

you in the deaf community of

communicating because it is a world

you are always part of all the time,

is that the point?

In terms of there

being a border between hearing and

signing, there's always that element

of gesture and visualisation. With

sign language, deaf people, that's

how we access communication. English

speech, sap banished speech, French

speech, that's their form of

communication of course, and also...

There's been misinformation about

oralism which is being spread all

over the world. What about sign

language? We need a little bit more

focus on that and more awareness on

that and the importance of sign

language.

Can I ask a question...

Honesty, you were born into a

speaking and hearing family. Your

mother chose not to teach you

through oral language but to sign

instead, how did she make that

decision?

Well, when I was born...

Of course when I was growing up I

didn't know anything about the deaf

community. And going through the

medical experience, I was told that

I should learn through oralism but

sign language is my right, that is

my language. My family, my mother

was advised I should be taught to

speak. But my mother looked into it,

she did her own research and

refused. And found out that there is

a deaf community, and they learn

sign language and that is accessible

for me and I have my own language

and its full access for myself.

From

the outside, for people not familiar

with the deaf community, I'm sure

there will be many saying, it's

great to have signing, why wouldn't

you add in speaking if you can,

singing if you can, lip-reading if

you can as well? Why wouldn't you

have the richest experience you

possibly can?

Yes, bilingualism,

that's good.

You agree, do you, Zoe?

I think in terms of speech and sign,

its dual language, quite difficult.

There are some people that can do

that quite well. But to do that at

the same time, it's impossible,

because you lose focus on one

language. In terms of the grammar,

the context, the syntax, everything

that is linked that creates the

language is totally different. It's

a like putting your head and rubbing

your stomach, doing two things at

the same time.

Does it feel like a

political choice for you within the

deaf community to say signing is my

identity, it is my deaf identity and

I don't want the confusion of

anything else?

Yes and no. I think

with sign language, it is becoming

quite a political issue. It's not an

issue of saying I can't speak, it's

saying I don't speak. Because they

hearing community, it's quite

powerful. And, of course, with

technology, implants and things like

that, and with that sort of research

in place, people can understand the

theory is that deaf people might be

able to speak but we need to also

show awareness that speech can

happen. For example, my family is

deaf, they all sign and sign

language exists in the wider

community as well. I mean, with

hearing people, they've got eyes and

hands, they can learn.

Honesty and

Zoe, thank you both very much indeed

and thank you for interpreting for

us.

That's it for tonight.

We leave you with the first

ever actual video of

a scientific superstar.

Crisper is the tool that lets

scientists slice through DNA

to disable genes or insert new ones.

It's currently the hottest topic

in biology, but you couldn't

actually ever see the process

because it all happens

at a molecular level.

Enter Professor Osamu Nureki

of the university of Tokyo,

and his high-speed atomic-force

microscopic camera.

Goodnight.

MUSIC: It Ain't What You Do (It's

the Way That You Do It).