16/11/2017 Newsnight

Still, any time, when

I walk in this door.

Dead people, there is no

toilets, babies, everything

together, you cannot mention how

much it was, thousands of people.

The most serious war crimes

trial since Nuremberg

is drawing to a close.

Ratko Mladic stands

accused of genocide

and crimes against humanity.

And the horrors of Bosnia's

past still feels raw.

Will he go gently?

Tonight, conflicting reports

of whether Robert Mugabe is willing

to step down from his 37 years

at Zimbabwe's helm.

What happens next if he refuses?

Also tonight...

Abhorrent and offensive tweets

from the editor of Gay Times.

The work of one bigot

with anger issues or part

of a wider cultural problem?

We discuss with one of Josh Rivers'

friends and a gay journalist.

Good evening.

It's time for the closing arguments

in the most serious war crimes trial

since Nuremberg at the end

of World War II.

Ratko Mladic, commander of Serb

forces in the Bosnian war,

stands accused of genocide,

crimes against humanity

and violation of the customs of war.

The verdict is expected next week

in The Hague and will effectively

mark the end of more than two

decades of work there by

the International Criminal Tribunal.

So how do the victims

of Mladic's ethnic cleansing

and murder view this moment?

And what about other Bosnian Serbs

convicted in the Hague so long

ago that they've now

served their sentences

and gone home?

Mark Urban covered the Bosnian

war through the 1990s.

He returned there to speak

to those whose lives

were altered forever by the war.

He's with us now.

Mark.

So much weight attached to this?

Most viewers in this country, it

feels like a long time ago but of

course, in Bosnia there are still

30,000 people, we can see their

faces, missing and unaccounted for

whose families do not even know how

or where they died but assume the

worst. And the country is still

divided between the government and

the Republic of Serbs, that creation

of the breakaway republic was the

central project of Ratko Mladic and

the political leaders so many people

still ask and it is a lively debate,

is there design still in place? And

both main communities still in

moments of anger threaten each other

but the resumption of war so there

is still the sense of unfinished

business.

We have seen more

conflicts since then, will we expect

more prosecutions?

In a way, this is

the uniqueness of what is coming up,

the political leader has been found

guilty but Mladic, the architect of

ethnic cleansing, they invented this

term, he is coming up for sentencing

and it is very unusual, traffic,

Assad, some people would like to see

the Israelis in front of the

criminal court and all of these

cases have been vetoed, today I

vetoed by the Soviet Union on

investigation of Syrian possible use

of chemical weapons, the tenth

Russian veto, they referred that the

International Criminal Court back in

2014 along with the Chinese and the

Americans have stopped their allies

being involved it is very

exceptional and the feelings aroused

by General Mladic and what happened

are still so Rourke as we discovered

when we went back to Bosnia.

Bosnia is a place haunted

by what its people did to one

another during their war.

And today, the victims' demand

demand for an accounting of past

crimes must be balanced

with the country's desire, somehow,

to escape them and move forward.

In an old factory in central Bosnia,

the human cost of the war

is still being measured.

For it is here that unidentified

corpses from mass graves

are being delivered,

even today, and the families

of 30,000 still missing

search for answers.

This is overwhelming,

in a certain way.

There are pictures of the missing.

There are human remains pretty

much everywhere here.

By the hundreds.

And then, at the end,

there are scraps of clothing

and other things that have been

recovered with them.

And this place is the main hope that

a lot of the families of those

missing have for discovering

what on earth happened to a loved

one who just disappeared

all those years ago.

Having covered the war 25 years ago,

I've come back to explore the impact

that one particularly malign man had

on the lives of thousands.

Ratko Mladic commanded Serb

forces in the Bosnian war.

He is now facing a verdict

on an enormous catalogue of war

crimes, including genocide.

It has taken six years to try.

Four days ago marked two decades

since Ratko Mladic became

the commander of the main staff

of the army of Republika

Srpska, the VRS.

On that day he assumed the mantle

of realising through military might

the criminal goals of ethnically

cleansing much of Bosnia.

Musreta Sivac was a judge herself

in the north-western town

of Prijedor when Serb troops took

over in May 1992.

She was fired and became one

of thousands of Muslims sent

to Omarska, an iron ore plant that

would become infamous

as a camp where, in a few

months, 700 inmates died.

Omarska was the product of what was

called ethnic cleansing -

driving non-Serbs out

of much of Bosnia.

37 women were used to serve

in the camp's dining hall.

During the day they could hear

torture going on in

the nearby dormitories.

And night brought its own anguish.

Mr Kvocka, please rise.

Early on, The Hague tribunal tried

several of the Omarska guards.

One of those trials

featured Miroslav Kvocka.

A policeman at the start of the war,

he was described in court as deputy

commander of the camp.

Then, as now, he portrays himself

as someone who saved his Muslim

wife's relatives from the horror

of the camp.

The chamber considers that isolated

acts of kindness to some prisoners

do not absorb any individual

of crimes which may

have been committed.

The court said he was culpable

of joint enterprise.

He knew what was going

on and didn't stop it.

The chamber finds you guilty

of the crime against humanity,

persecution, and the war crimes,

murder and torture.

In the war we used to travel

into Sarajevo via Mount Igman.

We're here again.

This place, a remnant

of the Winter Olympics,

became a battleground as the focus

of the war shifted from the area

around Prijedor to Bosnia's capital.

From the beginning of the conflict,

Mladic brought to bear the Serb

army's superiority in artillery.

And as this intercepted

conversation showed, used it

against the population of Sarajevo.

So, you had come out

of the flat that morning?

Mia Karamehic was a seven-year-old

living on this street.

The siege had just started

and she was brought out

by a rumour of ice cream.

The earth began to shake.

I went flying up in the air.

I could see everybody

lying on the street.

People in pieces, a lot of blood.

In those dreadful moments,

in which 20 people died,

a cameraman captured this fleeting

image of Mia being carried off.

She survived shrapnel wounds.

Her mother lost a leg in the blast.

Together, the family

and neighbours endured

the following three years

during which, at times, 1000 shells

a day would fall on the city.

The Hague process has gone

on for so long that some convicts

have done their time in European

prisons and come home.

A few years ago, jubilant

crowds turned out to meet

Momcilo Krajisnik as he returned.

He was the speaker of the Serb

parliament and, having

served his punishment,

accepts people on his side were also

guilty of war crimes.

But across in the east

of the country, events reached

a tipping point in the final year

of the war.

The genocide indictment

against General Ratko Mladic divides

his crimes into various phases.

The early part of the war around

Prijedor in north-west Bosnia.

Then the siege of

Sarajevo in the centre.

And then, finally, the enormous

catalogue of crimes that took place

in this place in 1995.

Srebrenica.

The UN had declared the Srebrenica

enclave to be a safe area.

But in fact, as Mladic

planned its capture,

the Dutch UN troops who were meant

to defend it had been

by their higher commanders.

Srebrenica was overrun and more

than 20,000 frightened Muslim women

and children crammed

into the Dutch base.

Rob Zomer was one of

the soldiers there.

Still, any time when I walk in this

door, a split-second,

I smell and see the people.

Dead people.

There is no toilets.

Babies.

Everything together.

You cannot mention how much it was.

Thousands of people.

As Srebrenica fell, one woman gave

Rob Zomer her baby to look after.

How desperate must a lady be to give

to some strange guy,

because he has a blue helmet?

Because in that moment

it was the best thinking

for her to give her baby.

He passed the child

onto medics and it survived.

Mladic guaranteed the women

and children's safe passage.

But meanwhile, his troops hunted

the men of Srebrenica.

They were gathered in

places like this school.

The man who told us that -

Mevludin Oric - went back with us

for only the second time since Serb

troops brought him and hundreds

of others here to kill them.

Mevludin survived by playing dead

among the corpses and at night

he escaped over the mountains

to government territory.

In Prijedor, where Musreta Sivac

returned after the war,

there are also reminders everywhere.

Some men who were never arrested,

others who have served

their sentences and she now

encounters on the streets.

Miroslav Kvocka, taking labouring

jobs since his return,

is unable to leave the past behind

or get over what he

regards as an injustice.

Mevludin Oric is haunted

by the loss of his father,

brother and numerous cousins

and also by the fact that he still

recognises Serbs around

here from those killing fields.

For Momcilo Krajisnik, it's

pointless quibbling with a sentence

he has already served.

He is done with raging

against the Hague and today

thinks politicians have

to leave their sectarian

approach behind.

Thousands of survivors demand that

as trials end soon in The Hague,

the pursuit of war crimes should go

on in Bosnia itself.

And that's what will happen

in a country where the political

elites that started the war

and benefit from continued division

still call the shots.

That film by Mark Urban

and producer Maria Polahovska.

You can see a longer version

of the film on Our World this

Saturday and Sunday at 9.30pm

on the BBC News Channel.

Brexit Secretary David Davis has

been speaking in Berlin tonight,

telling the EU not to put politics

above prosperity as he addressed

an economic summit.

He also suggested the EU would need

to "think creatively" about how

things would operate post-Brexit.

Nicholas Watt is here.

Did you hear threat or promise?

I think it shows robust vision UK

side is what they regard as an

inflexible approach by the EU these

negotiations and they want some

flexibility and thinking about the

great trading opportunities you

could have with one of the richest

countries in the world but it is

also interesting to note that David

Davis was more emollient on the

issue of the Brexit financial

settlement, as he made clear in a

question and answer with the editor

of the Suddeutsche Zeitung.

Are we approaching

between 20 and the 100?

LAUGHTER.

Wait for another few weeks before I

answer that.

What those rather jovial remarks by

David Davis show is that the UK is

prepared to put more than the 20

billion that is already on the table

ahead of the next European Council

next month.

This sounds odd but why

does the money matter so much?

Britain hopes that if they can put

the money on the table, extra money,

that the EU will then open up the

future trade talks and that they

would also outline the frameworks of

the implementation period and this

was a point that David Davis made

clear in his speech tonight.

But no matter what approach we take,

both sides will need time

to implement those new arrangements.

That is why the Prime Minister set

out in her Florence speech

that we want to secure

a time-limited transition period.

That would mean access to the UK

and European markets

would continue on current terms,

keeping both the rights

of a European Union member

and the obligations of one,

such as the role of

the European Court of Justice.

That also means staying

in all the EU regulators

and agencies during that limited

period, which, as I say, we would

expect to be about two years.

Now what is interesting there, at

the beginning of those remarks,

David Davis talked about a

transition period. That is the

language used by the EU. The Prime

Minister talks about an

implementation period, implementing

the future agreement over a phased

period and he also talked about

during that two-year period, the UK

would have to observe the rights and

obligations of the EU.

Thank you for

joining us.

Last night, we asked

what would happen if Robert Mugabe

refused to step down.

Tonight, he appears to be refusing.

There have been no public

statements, just a few photos that

have emerged of the 93-year-old

leader meeting the army chief

leading the move against him

and envoys sent from South Africa.

We did hear from Mugabe's long-time

rival, the opposition

leader Morgan Tsvangirai.

In the interest of the people

of Zimbabwe, Mr Robert Mugabe must

resign, step down immediately,

in line with the national

sentiment and expectation,

taking full regard of his legacy

and the contribution to Zimbabwe.

Mr Mugabe's Zanu-PF party has

promised free and fair elections,

but not until next August.

They are scheduled then.

We'll hear first from

Shingai Nyoka who's in Harare.

I began by asking her what the

atmosphere was like in Zimbabwe this

evening?

They are waiting

for an announcement.

Today, President Robert Mugabe

met with the generals

as well as with South African envoys

and on social media there was a

flurry and people were wondering

whether at the end of those

negotiations there would be some

kind of announcement about what the

future holds.

We understand that those talks

were done but it is not

clear whether President Mugabe made

any kind of agreement with the

generals but the pictures appeared

of him with one of the commanders

who many believe has

led this takeover,

and they shook hands

and they were smiling and so people

are generally confused about what is

actually happening and how

and where this will all end.

Has there been any sign of Mugabe's

wife, Grace, or indeed

of the deposed vice president,

who fled the country?

There has been no sign

of Grace Mugabe ever since this

takeover happened.

In fact, President Mugabe

only emerged today

after days where he has been under

house arrest and there was no

mention of where his wife is.

There has been a lot

of speculation and rumour

about whether she has left

the country or whether

she is still here.

But the belief is that she remains

in Zimbabwe and the deposed

vice president, we understand,

is still outside the country.

There has been a lot of secrecy

around the events of

the last few days and people

are just waiting and hoping that the

next few days will bring

some kind of clarity.

Thank you very much.

Earlier, I spoke to Eddie Cross.

He was one of the founder

members for the Movement

for Democratic Change,

Zimbabwe's main opposition party

for which he is still

a Member of Parliament.

Security in the nation's capital

is currently difficult

so we spoke to him over Skype.

Eddie Cross, your leader

Morgan Tsvangirai has said he wants

Mugabe gone within 24 hours.

What do you understand

has happened now?

Well, I think it's quite clear,

the military have certainly taken

charge of events in Zimbabwe

but the man behind the military

is Emmerson Mnangagwa.

This has been a very carefully

orchestrated and smooth operation.

It has been managed extremely

well, with the minimum

of bloodshed so far.

And I think that Mr Mugabe

has little or no choice

at all but in fact to tender his

resignation within

the next 24 hours.

I think Morgan was absolutely

right about that.

And I don't think he has any

option but to do so.

What happens if he just refuses?

Oh, I really can't

see that happening.

Because he's lost

complete support here.

His own compatriots

in the War Veterans League,

which is very influential,

have abandoned him.

The public...

The public attitude

towards the situation

is one of jubilation.

They are delighted

with the move adopted,

the moves adopted by the army.

And I think that really, regionally,

he has little or no support.

I don't think the Sadc meeting today

in Gaborone has any chance

whatsoever of bringing any influence

to bear on him.

Is he still trying to get his wife

Grace as his successor?

Is that the plan?

No, I think that's dead and gone.

That's done and dusted.

I don't think she's in the country.

I think she's left the country.

And I think that she

won't come back.

That, that I think

is dead and buried.

So...

But I think the issue now is,

because the man, the person

who holds the constitutional right

to power is Mugabe.

And he has to resign and hand over

power to Emmerson Mnangagwa

if the transition of power is to be

constitutional and I think

that is their objective.

And would you expect,

if that happens, for your party

leader, Morgan Tsvangirai,

to become the Prime Minister under

Emmerson's presidency?

There's no provision

for a Prime Minister

under our present constitution

so that would require

a constitutional change.

But what Morgan made very clear

today was that he would,

he would call for a transitional

government to run the country

for a short period and to repair

the country for a free and fair

election which could then be...

Could then be contested by everybody

who wants to contest,

in the shortest possible time.

I, I think that those negotiations

almost certainly will start

because I don't think

Emmerson Mnangagwa has any

option but to do a deal.

This has all been talked about very

calmly with great orderliness,

almost forgetting that he is one

of the most brutal

dictators of our time.

Do you believe that Mugabe should be

held responsible now for war crimes

against his own people?

That is a tough call because,

you know, in the end,

we have got to live together.

I don't think that...

I don't think that we

will humiliate Mugabe.

I think that we will allow him

to retire with dignity.

What he wants, what he's asking

for is protection for his assets.

He's a multi-billionaire.

And I'm not sure whether we can

extend our generosity

to that extent.

But the question of prosecuting him

for his past abuses of people here,

the genocide in the 80s,

for example, during gukurahundi,

I don't think that'll happen.

I think that he will be allowed

to retire with dignity and I think

that is what Africa would want.

Eddie Cross, many thanks.

Much will depend on how the wider

community views any change and one

intriguing question, where does

China stand, a country that invested

so much, built infrastructure within

Zimbabwe under Mugabe's rule. Here

is Mike Thompson.

Almost before the British flag had

descended the flagpole, the newly

independent Zimbabwe rushed to forge

diplomatic ties with China, which

had supported the war against white

minority rule. Since then these two

nations, each often shunned by the

Western world, has grown ever

closer. Not so much a marriage of

love, more won of financial

convenience. Money for cash-strapped

Harare and raw materials for a

source hungry Beijing. The Chinese

currency is traded in Zimbabwe

alongside the mighty US dollar and

guess where they came from? Not

Washington but Beijing's huge stash

of foreign reserves. Over the past

couple of years China has put $30

million every month into Zimbabwe,

built the new parliament building,

given 0% longs for a medical

facilities, constructed academic

centres, operated platinum mines and

invested in power plants and

promised a further $4 billion in

direct investment.

China is the most

important player in Zimbabwe. Over 1

billion US dollars in 2013. China is

one of the top trading partners of

Zimbabwe.

Given this cosy and

rewarding relationship, isn't

Beijing upset about its old friend,

Robert Mugabe, being given the push?

Going by the lack of any Chinese

requests for his reinstatement,

possibly not.

I don't think China is

terribly worried about Mugabe's

leadership. The relationship between

China and Zimbabwe is not just a

relationship between China and

Mugabe.

China's concerns about Mr

Mugabe's mismanagement of the

Zimbabwean economy have apparently

been showing themselves for

sometimes, in the shape of promised

Chinese investments that have failed

to arrive.

Mugabe has been irritated

by the fact that large investment,

joint ventures in the resource

sector and things of that nature

have often not actually been

implemented and the consequences of

that have been to keep the economy

in its continued tailspin.

Could the

move against Mugabe have come

because his rule was impoverishing

Zimbabwe's elite as well as hitting

Chinese investors?

One of the things

that Mugabe had done or the

government had done in recent years

was to cancel licences in the

diamond fields, where there were

joint ventures and with dumb two

Chinese companies in particular but

the military backed interest in

exploiting diamonds. And this seemed

to be a signal that business as

usual could not carry on.

So when

the head of Zimbabwe's armed forces

went to Beijing last week, rather

than asking permission to oust Mr

Mugabe, was the instead explaining

why it took him so long? Micah

Johnson.

Josh Rivers has described his own

comments as horrible.

Said they were cries for help

and came from a place

of deep unhappiness.

Nevertheless, the newly appointed

editor of the magazine Gay Times has

had his employment terminated

with immediate effect

following an investigation

into the abhorrent things

he wrote on Twitter.

The magazine has also removed

all articles written by Rivers.

Three years ago, Rivers

was posting tweets that

were anti-semitic, anti-transgender.

He lashed out at lesbians,

and fat people and ugly

people and disabled kids.

Here's a sample.

That is just a flavour.

He apologised today

and said he'd changed.

So, you're probably thinking, "One

bigot with a pretty big problem.

It could be anyone, anywhere".

So why are there voices now

suggesting a wider problem?

What are they pointing at?

Let's discuss this with Mabin Azar,

journalist and film maker,

and Tofer Campbell, film maker

and writer, and friend

of Josh Rivers.

Very nice to have you both here.

You

think this is a wider problem? I do,

it might make us really

uncomfortable and I think a lot of

people winced when this came out, it

makes me hugely uncomfortable that

this happened but we have to

confront the truth here and that is

from my perspective, lots of people

in minority groups, including lots

of gay men, are angry and bitter and

we have to understand where that

comes from. From a place of trauma

and hurt. It is to do with being

judged since they were kids and so

forth. There is a context there. But

it means that as a community, we are

acid tongued and we can be

misogynistic, we can be racist and

sometimes we feel that we have

license to lash out. And that is not

in any way acceptable.

An

extraordinary thing to say. Do you

recognise that?

Firstly, I would say

it is a remarkable claim that Gay

Times appointed the first person of

colour to a major gay magazine and

that is a great thing and also that

is because of the work that Josh

Rivers had done at the magazine for

some time and he has been doing this

work and engaging with you and young

audiences and readers and bringing

in a more diverse readership so that

is the reason he was there and it

was a significant appointment, here

in 2017, that that happened. That is

why we are talking about it.

To be

fair, we're talking about it because

of those incredibly offensive and

abhorrent tweets that got him

sacked. Do you condone what he

wrote?

Absolutely not. He himself

has apologised and he has also been

sacked and he has paid the price. It

is interesting how I think people of

colour who are leaders and queer

people, they get judged by different

standards. You can see this with the

resignation of the sacking of Priti

Patel. But Boris Johnson has called

black people pick on knees in print.

When you see the standards applied

to black and queer leadership, they

are very different to those applied

to white leadership. This is partly

to do with some of the way...

I

think this is really difficult and a

lot of the online discourse after

their story broke today and lots of

people have said things like, there

is a misogynist running the White

House so this is small news. Let us

be realistic, the story here is that

somebody in a position of power,

yes, a person of colour and it is

wonderful Gay Times appointed him,

and I am also, as a British Asian,

but this was great. But that is not

the story. The story is, he

insulted, he was racist and

misogynistic and insulted old

people, fat people, disabled people,

30 much most of society. That is the

issue and we need to face up to that

as a problem and not turn him into

the victim.

He is not the victim.

They started by saying that he

recognises something of the acid

tongue, people think of their own

victimisation and giving them a

license to say but they like about

other members of the community?

Do

you recognise that? I recognise that

in the gay community and the queer

community there is a lot of

self-loathing, lack of

self-confidence, which has brought

around by the wider society issues

of homophobia. I recognise that if

you are black and queer and a person

of colour, you're in a situation

where you have a double situation of

racism and homophobia, Josh Rivers,

as somebody who has recognised that

when he was younger that he has gone

through a self-loathing period and

that is something we have to

definitely think about. I think that

for people of colour who are queer

and generally, issues of racism and

homophobia are ones which we have to

face from the wider society and the

wider gay society also and that is

something we have to think about. I

am very worried about creating the

prior of a black, gay man who has

had one small position.

That is

critical. If you enlarge this too

much you create more of a sense if

we knew this would happen if we

appointed a black gay man to that

magazine?

What it is not just about

a black gay man, it is about his

position of responsibility. It makes

me uncomfortable to talk about this

publicly but lots of gay men and gay

people generally do have this sense

of entitlement about things like

misogyny. I have been in rooms with

lots of gay men who refer to women

in the most awful way and they will

say it is a joke and I know that

comes from a place of trauma and

hurt. As a community, we need to

address that. I am not saying

anything that Josh has not said

himself, today he said he is on a

journey. The issue is, we can be

cynical. Of course he is a journey

because he was caught doing

something he should not have done.

Of course you can say that now.

Josh? I know Josh personally and he

is definitely on a journey in terms

of his personal development and his

development into perhaps a

high-profile position as a leader.

Only talk about having the

conversation, let us talk about...

Recently, the person who owns a

nightclub, Jeremy Joseph, tweeted

around the idea that all Somalians

are robbers and we have had

comments, much more insidious racism

and even the alliteration and

invisibility of black queer people

in the gay media and the mainstream

media speaks to other kinds of

conversations we have to have. I

would like to have this conversation

where we talk about the recent

survey around gay racism where 85%

of black gay men felt they had

experienced racism. 79% of races --

Asian men.

These are very important.

We need to have a longer debate

about this and I am sorry to cut you

off. We have run out of time. We

will return to this. Thank you both

very much.

That's it for this evening.

But first, you may have seen

The Sun's front page today,

accusing BBC workers of snoozing

on the job.

Tonight we can exclusively reveal

it's just the tip of the iceberg.

Not a soul in Broadcasting

House is awake.

Ever.

BBC output is quite

literally dreamed up

by producers in their sleep.

Needless to say, the Newsnight team

is already hard at work conjuring up

another fine programme

which we will no doubt bring

you tomorrow with Kirsty.

Goodnight.

LULLABY PLAYS.

LULLABY PLAYS.

Hello, we started the week

with a frost and we're

going to end the week with one.

Widespread frost as we start

off on Friday morning.

Plenty of sunshine to follow,

though quite windy with showers

into northern Scotland and gales

into the Northern Isles but most

places will have a dry day

and with plenty of sunshine.

There will be a bit of patchy cloud

in Northern Ireland and you may just

catch a shower skimming

the north coast.

The showers mostly in the north

and west of Scotland,

mostly into the north-west

with the strongest winds

and here into the Northern Isles.

The odd one may filter a bit

further east but most

of us here will stay dry.