16/11/2017 Newsnight


16/11/2017

The stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis. Including the Bosnian war, the latest on David Davis' Brexit speech in Berlin and will Mugabe go?


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Transcript


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Still, any time, when

I walk in this door.

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Dead people, there is no

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toilets, babies, everything

together, you cannot mention how

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much it was, thousands of people.

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The most serious war crimes

trial since Nuremberg

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is drawing to a close.

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Ratko Mladic stands

accused of genocide

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and crimes against humanity.

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And the horrors of Bosnia's

past still feels raw.

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Will he go gently?

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Tonight, conflicting reports

of whether Robert Mugabe is willing

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to step down from his 37 years

at Zimbabwe's helm.

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What happens next if he refuses?

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Also tonight...

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Abhorrent and offensive tweets

from the editor of Gay Times.

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The work of one bigot

with anger issues or part

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of a wider cultural problem?

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We discuss with one of Josh Rivers'

friends and a gay journalist.

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Good evening.

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It's time for the closing arguments

in the most serious war crimes trial

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since Nuremberg at the end

of World War II.

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Ratko Mladic, commander of Serb

forces in the Bosnian war,

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stands accused of genocide,

crimes against humanity

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and violation of the customs of war.

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The verdict is expected next week

in The Hague and will effectively

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mark the end of more than two

decades of work there by

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the International Criminal Tribunal.

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So how do the victims

of Mladic's ethnic cleansing

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and murder view this moment?

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And what about other Bosnian Serbs

convicted in the Hague so long

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ago that they've now

served their sentences

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and gone home?

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Mark Urban covered the Bosnian

war through the 1990s.

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He returned there to speak

to those whose lives

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were altered forever by the war.

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He's with us now.

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Mark.

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So much weight attached to this?

Most viewers in this country, it

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feels like a long time ago but of

course, in Bosnia there are still

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30,000 people, we can see their

faces, missing and unaccounted for

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whose families do not even know how

or where they died but assume the

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worst. And the country is still

divided between the government and

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the Republic of Serbs, that creation

of the breakaway republic was the

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central project of Ratko Mladic and

the political leaders so many people

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still ask and it is a lively debate,

is there design still in place? And

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both main communities still in

moments of anger threaten each other

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but the resumption of war so there

is still the sense of unfinished

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business.

We have seen more

conflicts since then, will we expect

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more prosecutions?

In a way, this is

the uniqueness of what is coming up,

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the political leader has been found

guilty but Mladic, the architect of

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ethnic cleansing, they invented this

term, he is coming up for sentencing

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and it is very unusual, traffic,

Assad, some people would like to see

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the Israelis in front of the

criminal court and all of these

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cases have been vetoed, today I

vetoed by the Soviet Union on

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investigation of Syrian possible use

of chemical weapons, the tenth

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Russian veto, they referred that the

International Criminal Court back in

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2014 along with the Chinese and the

Americans have stopped their allies

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being involved it is very

exceptional and the feelings aroused

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by General Mladic and what happened

are still so Rourke as we discovered

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when we went back to Bosnia.

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Bosnia is a place haunted

by what its people did to one

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another during their war.

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And today, the victims' demand

demand for an accounting of past

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crimes must be balanced

with the country's desire, somehow,

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to escape them and move forward.

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In an old factory in central Bosnia,

the human cost of the war

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is still being measured.

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For it is here that unidentified

corpses from mass graves

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are being delivered,

even today, and the families

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of 30,000 still missing

search for answers.

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This is overwhelming,

in a certain way.

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There are pictures of the missing.

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There are human remains pretty

much everywhere here.

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By the hundreds.

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And then, at the end,

there are scraps of clothing

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and other things that have been

recovered with them.

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And this place is the main hope that

a lot of the families of those

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missing have for discovering

what on earth happened to a loved

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one who just disappeared

all those years ago.

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Having covered the war 25 years ago,

I've come back to explore the impact

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that one particularly malign man had

on the lives of thousands.

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Ratko Mladic commanded Serb

forces in the Bosnian war.

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He is now facing a verdict

on an enormous catalogue of war

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crimes, including genocide.

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It has taken six years to try.

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Four days ago marked two decades

since Ratko Mladic became

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the commander of the main staff

of the army of Republika

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Srpska, the VRS.

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On that day he assumed the mantle

of realising through military might

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the criminal goals of ethnically

cleansing much of Bosnia.

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Musreta Sivac was a judge herself

in the north-western town

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of Prijedor when Serb troops took

over in May 1992.

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She was fired and became one

of thousands of Muslims sent

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to Omarska, an iron ore plant that

would become infamous

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as a camp where, in a few

months, 700 inmates died.

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Omarska was the product of what was

called ethnic cleansing -

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driving non-Serbs out

of much of Bosnia.

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37 women were used to serve

in the camp's dining hall.

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During the day they could hear

torture going on in

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the nearby dormitories.

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And night brought its own anguish.

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Mr Kvocka, please rise.

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Early on, The Hague tribunal tried

several of the Omarska guards.

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One of those trials

featured Miroslav Kvocka.

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A policeman at the start of the war,

he was described in court as deputy

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commander of the camp.

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Then, as now, he portrays himself

as someone who saved his Muslim

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wife's relatives from the horror

of the camp.

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The chamber considers that isolated

acts of kindness to some prisoners

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do not absorb any individual

of crimes which may

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have been committed.

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The court said he was culpable

of joint enterprise.

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He knew what was going

on and didn't stop it.

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The chamber finds you guilty

of the crime against humanity,

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persecution, and the war crimes,

murder and torture.

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In the war we used to travel

into Sarajevo via Mount Igman.

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We're here again.

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This place, a remnant

of the Winter Olympics,

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became a battleground as the focus

of the war shifted from the area

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around Prijedor to Bosnia's capital.

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From the beginning of the conflict,

Mladic brought to bear the Serb

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army's superiority in artillery.

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And as this intercepted

conversation showed, used it

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against the population of Sarajevo.

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So, you had come out

of the flat that morning?

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Mia Karamehic was a seven-year-old

living on this street.

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The siege had just started

and she was brought out

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by a rumour of ice cream.

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The earth began to shake.

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I went flying up in the air.

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I could see everybody

lying on the street.

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People in pieces, a lot of blood.

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In those dreadful moments,

in which 20 people died,

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a cameraman captured this fleeting

image of Mia being carried off.

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She survived shrapnel wounds.

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Her mother lost a leg in the blast.

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Together, the family

and neighbours endured

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the following three years

during which, at times, 1000 shells

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a day would fall on the city.

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The Hague process has gone

on for so long that some convicts

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have done their time in European

prisons and come home.

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A few years ago, jubilant

crowds turned out to meet

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Momcilo Krajisnik as he returned.

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He was the speaker of the Serb

parliament and, having

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served his punishment,

accepts people on his side were also

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guilty of war crimes.

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But across in the east

of the country, events reached

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a tipping point in the final year

of the war.

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The genocide indictment

against General Ratko Mladic divides

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his crimes into various phases.

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The early part of the war around

Prijedor in north-west Bosnia.

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Then the siege of

Sarajevo in the centre.

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And then, finally, the enormous

catalogue of crimes that took place

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in this place in 1995.

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Srebrenica.

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The UN had declared the Srebrenica

enclave to be a safe area.

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But in fact, as Mladic

planned its capture,

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the Dutch UN troops who were meant

to defend it had been

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by their higher commanders.

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Srebrenica was overrun and more

than 20,000 frightened Muslim women

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and children crammed

into the Dutch base.

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Rob Zomer was one of

the soldiers there.

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Still, any time when I walk in this

door, a split-second,

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I smell and see the people.

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Dead people.

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There is no toilets.

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Babies.

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Everything together.

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You cannot mention how much it was.

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Thousands of people.

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As Srebrenica fell, one woman gave

Rob Zomer her baby to look after.

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How desperate must a lady be to give

to some strange guy,

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because he has a blue helmet?

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Because in that moment

it was the best thinking

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for her to give her baby.

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He passed the child

onto medics and it survived.

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Mladic guaranteed the women

and children's safe passage.

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But meanwhile, his troops hunted

the men of Srebrenica.

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They were gathered in

places like this school.

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The man who told us that -

Mevludin Oric - went back with us

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for only the second time since Serb

troops brought him and hundreds

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of others here to kill them.

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Mevludin survived by playing dead

among the corpses and at night

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he escaped over the mountains

to government territory.

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In Prijedor, where Musreta Sivac

returned after the war,

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there are also reminders everywhere.

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Some men who were never arrested,

others who have served

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their sentences and she now

encounters on the streets.

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Miroslav Kvocka, taking labouring

jobs since his return,

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is unable to leave the past behind

or get over what he

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regards as an injustice.

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Mevludin Oric is haunted

by the loss of his father,

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brother and numerous cousins

and also by the fact that he still

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recognises Serbs around

here from those killing fields.

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For Momcilo Krajisnik, it's

pointless quibbling with a sentence

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he has already served.

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He is done with raging

against the Hague and today

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thinks politicians have

to leave their sectarian

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approach behind.

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Thousands of survivors demand that

as trials end soon in The Hague,

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the pursuit of war crimes should go

on in Bosnia itself.

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And that's what will happen

in a country where the political

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elites that started the war

and benefit from continued division

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still call the shots.

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That film by Mark Urban

and producer Maria Polahovska.

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You can see a longer version

of the film on Our World this

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Saturday and Sunday at 9.30pm

on the BBC News Channel.

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Brexit Secretary David Davis has

been speaking in Berlin tonight,

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telling the EU not to put politics

above prosperity as he addressed

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an economic summit.

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He also suggested the EU would need

to "think creatively" about how

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things would operate post-Brexit.

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Nicholas Watt is here.

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Did you hear threat or promise?

0:19:290:19:39

I think it shows robust vision UK

side is what they regard as an

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inflexible approach by the EU these

negotiations and they want some

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flexibility and thinking about the

great trading opportunities you

0:19:460:19:48

could have with one of the richest

countries in the world but it is

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also interesting to note that David

Davis was more emollient on the

0:19:510:19:55

issue of the Brexit financial

settlement, as he made clear in a

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question and answer with the editor

of the Suddeutsche Zeitung.

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Are we approaching

between 20 and the 100?

0:20:040:20:06

LAUGHTER.

0:20:060:20:08

Wait for another few weeks before I

answer that.

0:20:080:20:13

What those rather jovial remarks by

David Davis show is that the UK is

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prepared to put more than the 20

billion that is already on the table

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ahead of the next European Council

next month.

This sounds odd but why

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does the money matter so much?

Britain hopes that if they can put

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the money on the table, extra money,

that the EU will then open up the

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future trade talks and that they

would also outline the frameworks of

0:20:350:20:40

the implementation period and this

was a point that David Davis made

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clear in his speech tonight.

0:20:430:20:46

But no matter what approach we take,

both sides will need time

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to implement those new arrangements.

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That is why the Prime Minister set

out in her Florence speech

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that we want to secure

a time-limited transition period.

0:20:560:20:58

That would mean access to the UK

and European markets

0:20:580:21:01

would continue on current terms,

keeping both the rights

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of a European Union member

and the obligations of one,

0:21:030:21:06

such as the role of

the European Court of Justice.

0:21:060:21:11

That also means staying

in all the EU regulators

0:21:110:21:14

and agencies during that limited

period, which, as I say, we would

0:21:140:21:17

expect to be about two years.

0:21:170:21:22

Now what is interesting there, at

the beginning of those remarks,

0:21:220:21:26

David Davis talked about a

transition period. That is the

0:21:260:21:29

language used by the EU. The Prime

Minister talks about an

0:21:290:21:35

implementation period, implementing

the future agreement over a phased

0:21:350:21:38

period and he also talked about

during that two-year period, the UK

0:21:380:21:42

would have to observe the rights and

obligations of the EU.

Thank you for

0:21:420:21:45

joining us.

0:21:450:21:47

Last night, we asked

what would happen if Robert Mugabe

0:21:470:21:49

refused to step down.

0:21:490:21:50

Tonight, he appears to be refusing.

0:21:500:21:52

There have been no public

statements, just a few photos that

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have emerged of the 93-year-old

leader meeting the army chief

0:21:540:21:57

leading the move against him

and envoys sent from South Africa.

0:21:570:22:01

We did hear from Mugabe's long-time

rival, the opposition

0:22:010:22:04

leader Morgan Tsvangirai.

0:22:040:22:07

In the interest of the people

of Zimbabwe, Mr Robert Mugabe must

0:22:070:22:12

resign, step down immediately,

in line with the national

0:22:120:22:17

sentiment and expectation,

taking full regard of his legacy

0:22:170:22:21

and the contribution to Zimbabwe.

0:22:210:22:26

Mr Mugabe's Zanu-PF party has

promised free and fair elections,

0:22:260:22:29

but not until next August.

0:22:290:22:36

They are scheduled then.

0:22:360:22:38

We'll hear first from

Shingai Nyoka who's in Harare.

0:22:380:22:41

I began by asking her what the

atmosphere was like in Zimbabwe this

0:22:410:22:44

evening?

0:22:440:22:46

They are waiting

for an announcement.

0:22:460:22:47

Today, President Robert Mugabe

met with the generals

0:22:470:22:51

as well as with South African envoys

and on social media there was a

0:22:510:22:54

flurry and people were wondering

whether at the end of those

0:22:540:22:57

negotiations there would be some

kind of announcement about what the

0:22:570:22:59

future holds.

0:22:590:23:01

We understand that those talks

were done but it is not

0:23:010:23:03

clear whether President Mugabe made

any kind of agreement with the

0:23:030:23:08

generals but the pictures appeared

of him with one of the commanders

0:23:080:23:14

who many believe has

led this takeover,

0:23:140:23:19

and they shook hands

and they were smiling and so people

0:23:190:23:22

are generally confused about what is

actually happening and how

0:23:220:23:24

and where this will all end.

0:23:240:23:26

Has there been any sign of Mugabe's

wife, Grace, or indeed

0:23:260:23:29

of the deposed vice president,

who fled the country?

0:23:290:23:31

There has been no sign

of Grace Mugabe ever since this

0:23:310:23:34

takeover happened.

0:23:340:23:36

In fact, President Mugabe

only emerged today

0:23:360:23:42

after days where he has been under

house arrest and there was no

0:23:420:23:45

mention of where his wife is.

0:23:450:23:49

There has been a lot

of speculation and rumour

0:23:490:23:51

about whether she has left

the country or whether

0:23:510:23:53

she is still here.

0:23:530:23:54

But the belief is that she remains

in Zimbabwe and the deposed

0:23:540:23:57

vice president, we understand,

is still outside the country.

0:23:570:24:01

There has been a lot of secrecy

around the events of

0:24:010:24:05

the last few days and people

are just waiting and hoping that the

0:24:050:24:08

next few days will bring

some kind of clarity.

0:24:080:24:10

Thank you very much.

0:24:100:24:12

Earlier, I spoke to Eddie Cross.

0:24:120:24:15

He was one of the founder

members for the Movement

0:24:150:24:17

for Democratic Change,

Zimbabwe's main opposition party

0:24:170:24:25

for which he is still

a Member of Parliament.

0:24:250:24:27

Security in the nation's capital

is currently difficult

0:24:270:24:29

so we spoke to him over Skype.

0:24:290:24:31

Eddie Cross, your leader

Morgan Tsvangirai has said he wants

0:24:310:24:33

Mugabe gone within 24 hours.

0:24:330:24:34

What do you understand

has happened now?

0:24:340:24:37

Well, I think it's quite clear,

the military have certainly taken

0:24:370:24:40

charge of events in Zimbabwe

but the man behind the military

0:24:400:24:43

is Emmerson Mnangagwa.

0:24:430:24:48

This has been a very carefully

orchestrated and smooth operation.

0:24:480:24:55

It has been managed extremely

well, with the minimum

0:24:550:24:58

of bloodshed so far.

0:24:580:25:01

And I think that Mr Mugabe

has little or no choice

0:25:010:25:06

at all but in fact to tender his

resignation within

0:25:060:25:11

the next 24 hours.

0:25:110:25:12

I think Morgan was absolutely

right about that.

0:25:120:25:14

And I don't think he has any

option but to do so.

0:25:140:25:17

What happens if he just refuses?

0:25:170:25:21

Oh, I really can't

see that happening.

0:25:210:25:24

Because he's lost

complete support here.

0:25:240:25:28

His own compatriots

in the War Veterans League,

0:25:280:25:31

which is very influential,

have abandoned him.

0:25:310:25:34

The public...

0:25:340:25:36

The public attitude

towards the situation

0:25:360:25:38

is one of jubilation.

0:25:380:25:40

They are delighted

with the move adopted,

0:25:400:25:43

the moves adopted by the army.

0:25:430:25:47

And I think that really, regionally,

he has little or no support.

0:25:470:25:53

I don't think the Sadc meeting today

in Gaborone has any chance

0:25:530:25:57

whatsoever of bringing any influence

to bear on him.

0:25:570:26:00

Is he still trying to get his wife

Grace as his successor?

0:26:000:26:04

Is that the plan?

0:26:040:26:06

No, I think that's dead and gone.

0:26:060:26:09

That's done and dusted.

0:26:090:26:11

I don't think she's in the country.

0:26:110:26:13

I think she's left the country.

0:26:130:26:15

And I think that she

won't come back.

0:26:150:26:18

That, that I think

is dead and buried.

0:26:180:26:21

So...

0:26:210:26:23

But I think the issue now is,

because the man, the person

0:26:230:26:26

who holds the constitutional right

to power is Mugabe.

0:26:260:26:31

And he has to resign and hand over

power to Emmerson Mnangagwa

0:26:310:26:38

if the transition of power is to be

constitutional and I think

0:26:380:26:41

that is their objective.

0:26:410:26:43

And would you expect,

if that happens, for your party

0:26:430:26:47

leader, Morgan Tsvangirai,

to become the Prime Minister under

0:26:470:26:52

Emmerson's presidency?

0:26:520:26:55

There's no provision

for a Prime Minister

0:26:550:26:57

under our present constitution

so that would require

0:26:570:26:59

a constitutional change.

0:26:590:27:02

But what Morgan made very clear

today was that he would,

0:27:020:27:07

he would call for a transitional

government to run the country

0:27:070:27:15

for a short period and to repair

the country for a free and fair

0:27:150:27:18

election which could then be...

0:27:180:27:20

Could then be contested by everybody

who wants to contest,

0:27:200:27:23

in the shortest possible time.

0:27:230:27:28

I, I think that those negotiations

almost certainly will start

0:27:280:27:32

because I don't think

Emmerson Mnangagwa has any

0:27:320:27:35

option but to do a deal.

0:27:350:27:38

This has all been talked about very

calmly with great orderliness,

0:27:380:27:41

almost forgetting that he is one

of the most brutal

0:27:410:27:44

dictators of our time.

0:27:440:27:46

Do you believe that Mugabe should be

held responsible now for war crimes

0:27:460:27:51

against his own people?

0:27:510:27:53

That is a tough call because,

you know, in the end,

0:27:530:27:56

we have got to live together.

0:27:560:28:00

I don't think that...

0:28:000:28:02

I don't think that we

will humiliate Mugabe.

0:28:020:28:04

I think that we will allow him

to retire with dignity.

0:28:040:28:07

What he wants, what he's asking

for is protection for his assets.

0:28:070:28:11

He's a multi-billionaire.

0:28:110:28:14

And I'm not sure whether we can

extend our generosity

0:28:140:28:17

to that extent.

0:28:170:28:20

But the question of prosecuting him

for his past abuses of people here,

0:28:200:28:25

the genocide in the 80s,

for example, during gukurahundi,

0:28:250:28:29

I don't think that'll happen.

0:28:290:28:32

I think that he will be allowed

to retire with dignity and I think

0:28:320:28:36

that is what Africa would want.

0:28:360:28:38

Eddie Cross, many thanks.

0:28:380:28:46

Much will depend on how the wider

community views any change and one

0:28:460:28:50

intriguing question, where does

China stand, a country that invested

0:28:500:28:54

so much, built infrastructure within

Zimbabwe under Mugabe's rule. Here

0:28:540:28:57

is Mike Thompson.

0:28:570:28:59

Almost before the British flag had

descended the flagpole, the newly

0:29:040:29:07

independent Zimbabwe rushed to forge

diplomatic ties with China, which

0:29:070:29:13

had supported the war against white

minority rule. Since then these two

0:29:130:29:19

nations, each often shunned by the

Western world, has grown ever

0:29:190:29:23

closer. Not so much a marriage of

love, more won of financial

0:29:230:29:27

convenience. Money for cash-strapped

Harare and raw materials for a

0:29:270:29:33

source hungry Beijing. The Chinese

currency is traded in Zimbabwe

0:29:330:29:43

alongside the mighty US dollar and

guess where they came from? Not

0:29:430:29:46

Washington but Beijing's huge stash

of foreign reserves. Over the past

0:29:460:29:52

couple of years China has put $30

million every month into Zimbabwe,

0:29:520:29:58

built the new parliament building,

given 0% longs for a medical

0:29:580:30:04

facilities, constructed academic

centres, operated platinum mines and

0:30:040:30:08

invested in power plants and

promised a further $4 billion in

0:30:080:30:12

direct investment.

China is the most

important player in Zimbabwe. Over 1

0:30:120:30:26

billion US dollars in 2013. China is

one of the top trading partners of

0:30:260:30:33

Zimbabwe.

Given this cosy and

rewarding relationship, isn't

0:30:330:30:37

Beijing upset about its old friend,

Robert Mugabe, being given the push?

0:30:370:30:42

Going by the lack of any Chinese

requests for his reinstatement,

0:30:420:30:46

possibly not.

I don't think China is

terribly worried about Mugabe's

0:30:460:30:53

leadership. The relationship between

China and Zimbabwe is not just a

0:30:530:30:59

relationship between China and

Mugabe.

China's concerns about Mr

0:30:590:31:06

Mugabe's mismanagement of the

Zimbabwean economy have apparently

0:31:060:31:10

been showing themselves for

sometimes, in the shape of promised

0:31:100:31:15

Chinese investments that have failed

to arrive.

Mugabe has been irritated

0:31:150:31:18

by the fact that large investment,

joint ventures in the resource

0:31:180:31:24

sector and things of that nature

have often not actually been

0:31:240:31:31

implemented and the consequences of

that have been to keep the economy

0:31:310:31:34

in its continued tailspin.

Could the

move against Mugabe have come

0:31:340:31:41

because his rule was impoverishing

Zimbabwe's elite as well as hitting

0:31:410:31:46

Chinese investors?

One of the things

that Mugabe had done or the

0:31:460:31:51

government had done in recent years

was to cancel licences in the

0:31:510:31:55

diamond fields, where there were

joint ventures and with dumb two

0:31:550:32:04

Chinese companies in particular but

the military backed interest in

0:32:040:32:07

exploiting diamonds. And this seemed

to be a signal that business as

0:32:070:32:12

usual could not carry on.

So when

the head of Zimbabwe's armed forces

0:32:120:32:17

went to Beijing last week, rather

than asking permission to oust Mr

0:32:170:32:22

Mugabe, was the instead explaining

why it took him so long? Micah

0:32:220:32:27

Johnson.

0:32:270:32:29

Josh Rivers has described his own

comments as horrible.

0:32:290:32:33

Said they were cries for help

and came from a place

0:32:330:32:36

of deep unhappiness.

0:32:360:32:37

Nevertheless, the newly appointed

editor of the magazine Gay Times has

0:32:370:32:40

had his employment terminated

with immediate effect

0:32:400:32:41

following an investigation

into the abhorrent things

0:32:410:32:43

he wrote on Twitter.

0:32:430:32:47

The magazine has also removed

all articles written by Rivers.

0:32:470:32:50

Three years ago, Rivers

was posting tweets that

0:32:500:32:53

were anti-semitic, anti-transgender.

0:32:530:32:54

He lashed out at lesbians,

and fat people and ugly

0:32:540:32:57

people and disabled kids.

0:32:570:32:58

Here's a sample.

0:32:580:33:01

That is just a flavour.

0:33:270:33:29

He apologised today

and said he'd changed.

0:33:290:33:31

So, you're probably thinking, "One

bigot with a pretty big problem.

0:33:310:33:33

It could be anyone, anywhere".

0:33:330:33:35

So why are there voices now

suggesting a wider problem?

0:33:350:33:37

What are they pointing at?

0:33:370:33:39

Let's discuss this with Mabin Azar,

journalist and film maker,

0:33:390:33:41

and Tofer Campbell, film maker

and writer, and friend

0:33:410:33:43

of Josh Rivers.

0:33:430:33:49

Very nice to have you both here.

You

think this is a wider problem? I do,

0:33:490:33:57

it might make us really

uncomfortable and I think a lot of

0:33:570:34:01

people winced when this came out, it

makes me hugely uncomfortable that

0:34:010:34:04

this happened but we have to

confront the truth here and that is

0:34:040:34:10

from my perspective, lots of people

in minority groups, including lots

0:34:100:34:13

of gay men, are angry and bitter and

we have to understand where that

0:34:130:34:20

comes from. From a place of trauma

and hurt. It is to do with being

0:34:200:34:24

judged since they were kids and so

forth. There is a context there. But

0:34:240:34:29

it means that as a community, we are

acid tongued and we can be

0:34:290:34:37

misogynistic, we can be racist and

sometimes we feel that we have

0:34:370:34:42

license to lash out. And that is not

in any way acceptable.

An

0:34:420:34:47

extraordinary thing to say. Do you

recognise that?

Firstly, I would say

0:34:470:34:54

it is a remarkable claim that Gay

Times appointed the first person of

0:34:540:34:58

colour to a major gay magazine and

that is a great thing and also that

0:34:580:35:02

is because of the work that Josh

Rivers had done at the magazine for

0:35:020:35:06

some time and he has been doing this

work and engaging with you and young

0:35:060:35:10

audiences and readers and bringing

in a more diverse readership so that

0:35:100:35:15

is the reason he was there and it

was a significant appointment, here

0:35:150:35:21

in 2017, that that happened. That is

why we are talking about it.

To be

0:35:210:35:28

fair, we're talking about it because

of those incredibly offensive and

0:35:280:35:32

abhorrent tweets that got him

sacked. Do you condone what he

0:35:320:35:35

wrote?

Absolutely not. He himself

has apologised and he has also been

0:35:350:35:43

sacked and he has paid the price. It

is interesting how I think people of

0:35:430:35:48

colour who are leaders and queer

people, they get judged by different

0:35:480:35:54

standards. You can see this with the

resignation of the sacking of Priti

0:35:540:36:00

Patel. But Boris Johnson has called

black people pick on knees in print.

0:36:000:36:06

When you see the standards applied

to black and queer leadership, they

0:36:060:36:14

are very different to those applied

to white leadership. This is partly

0:36:140:36:18

to do with some of the way...

I

think this is really difficult and a

0:36:180:36:24

lot of the online discourse after

their story broke today and lots of

0:36:240:36:28

people have said things like, there

is a misogynist running the White

0:36:280:36:32

House so this is small news. Let us

be realistic, the story here is that

0:36:320:36:37

somebody in a position of power,

yes, a person of colour and it is

0:36:370:36:43

wonderful Gay Times appointed him,

and I am also, as a British Asian,

0:36:430:36:48

but this was great. But that is not

the story. The story is, he

0:36:480:36:55

insulted, he was racist and

misogynistic and insulted old

0:36:550:36:58

people, fat people, disabled people,

30 much most of society. That is the

0:36:580:37:04

issue and we need to face up to that

as a problem and not turn him into

0:37:040:37:07

the victim.

He is not the victim.

They started by saying that he

0:37:070:37:15

recognises something of the acid

tongue, people think of their own

0:37:150:37:19

victimisation and giving them a

license to say but they like about

0:37:190:37:24

other members of the community?

Do

you recognise that? I recognise that

0:37:240:37:30

in the gay community and the queer

community there is a lot of

0:37:300:37:37

self-loathing, lack of

self-confidence, which has brought

0:37:370:37:39

around by the wider society issues

of homophobia. I recognise that if

0:37:390:37:44

you are black and queer and a person

of colour, you're in a situation

0:37:440:37:48

where you have a double situation of

racism and homophobia, Josh Rivers,

0:37:480:37:54

as somebody who has recognised that

when he was younger that he has gone

0:37:540:37:58

through a self-loathing period and

that is something we have to

0:37:580:38:01

definitely think about. I think that

for people of colour who are queer

0:38:010:38:08

and generally, issues of racism and

homophobia are ones which we have to

0:38:080:38:13

face from the wider society and the

wider gay society also and that is

0:38:130:38:18

something we have to think about. I

am very worried about creating the

0:38:180:38:25

prior of a black, gay man who has

had one small position.

That is

0:38:250:38:32

critical. If you enlarge this too

much you create more of a sense if

0:38:320:38:37

we knew this would happen if we

appointed a black gay man to that

0:38:370:38:39

magazine?

What it is not just about

a black gay man, it is about his

0:38:390:38:46

position of responsibility. It makes

me uncomfortable to talk about this

0:38:460:38:50

publicly but lots of gay men and gay

people generally do have this sense

0:38:500:38:54

of entitlement about things like

misogyny. I have been in rooms with

0:38:540:39:00

lots of gay men who refer to women

in the most awful way and they will

0:39:000:39:03

say it is a joke and I know that

comes from a place of trauma and

0:39:030:39:08

hurt. As a community, we need to

address that. I am not saying

0:39:080:39:14

anything that Josh has not said

himself, today he said he is on a

0:39:140:39:19

journey. The issue is, we can be

cynical. Of course he is a journey

0:39:190:39:24

because he was caught doing

something he should not have done.

0:39:240:39:27

Of course you can say that now.

Josh? I know Josh personally and he

0:39:270:39:34

is definitely on a journey in terms

of his personal development and his

0:39:340:39:40

development into perhaps a

high-profile position as a leader.

0:39:400:39:43

Only talk about having the

conversation, let us talk about...

0:39:430:39:48

Recently, the person who owns a

nightclub, Jeremy Joseph, tweeted

0:39:480:39:53

around the idea that all Somalians

are robbers and we have had

0:39:530:40:01

comments, much more insidious racism

and even the alliteration and

0:40:010:40:05

invisibility of black queer people

in the gay media and the mainstream

0:40:050:40:10

media speaks to other kinds of

conversations we have to have. I

0:40:100:40:14

would like to have this conversation

where we talk about the recent

0:40:140:40:19

survey around gay racism where 85%

of black gay men felt they had

0:40:190:40:25

experienced racism. 79% of races --

Asian men.

These are very important.

0:40:250:40:31

We need to have a longer debate

about this and I am sorry to cut you

0:40:310:40:36

off. We have run out of time. We

will return to this. Thank you both

0:40:360:40:40

very much.

0:40:400:40:42

That's it for this evening.

0:40:420:40:43

But first, you may have seen

The Sun's front page today,

0:40:430:40:46

accusing BBC workers of snoozing

on the job.

0:40:460:40:48

Tonight we can exclusively reveal

it's just the tip of the iceberg.

0:40:480:40:51

Not a soul in Broadcasting

House is awake.

0:40:510:40:52

Ever.

0:40:520:40:53

BBC output is quite

literally dreamed up

0:40:530:40:55

by producers in their sleep.

0:40:550:40:56

Needless to say, the Newsnight team

is already hard at work conjuring up

0:40:560:40:59

another fine programme

which we will no doubt bring

0:40:590:41:02

you tomorrow with Kirsty.

0:41:020:41:03

Goodnight.

0:41:030:41:13

LULLABY PLAYS.

0:41:200:41:23

LULLABY PLAYS.

0:41:230:41:27

Hello, we started the week

with a frost and we're

0:41:270:41:30

going to end the week with one.

0:41:300:41:31

Widespread frost as we start

off on Friday morning.

0:41:310:41:34

Plenty of sunshine to follow,

though quite windy with showers

0:41:340:41:36

into northern Scotland and gales

into the Northern Isles but most

0:41:360:41:39

places will have a dry day

and with plenty of sunshine.

0:41:390:41:41

There will be a bit of patchy cloud

in Northern Ireland and you may just

0:41:410:41:45

catch a shower skimming

the north coast.

0:41:450:41:47

The showers mostly in the north

and west of Scotland,

0:41:470:41:49

mostly into the north-west

with the strongest winds

0:41:490:41:53

and here into the Northern Isles.

0:41:530:41:55

The odd one may filter a bit

further east but most

0:41:550:41:58

of us here will stay dry.

0:41:580:41:59

Including the Bosnian war, the latest on David Davis' Brexit speech in Berlin and will Mugabe go?


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