The stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis. Including the Bosnian war, the latest on David Davis' Brexit speech in Berlin and will Mugabe go?
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Still, any time, when
I walk in this door.
Dead people, there is no
toilets, babies, everything
together, you cannot mention how
much it was, thousands of people.
The most serious war crimes
trial since Nuremberg
is drawing to a close.
Ratko Mladic stands
accused of genocide
and crimes against humanity.
And the horrors of Bosnia's
past still feels raw.
Will he go gently?
Tonight, conflicting reports
of whether Robert Mugabe is willing
to step down from his 37 years
at Zimbabwe's helm.
What happens next if he refuses?
Abhorrent and offensive tweets
from the editor of Gay Times.
The work of one bigot
with anger issues or part
of a wider cultural problem?
We discuss with one of Josh Rivers'
friends and a gay journalist.
It's time for the closing arguments
in the most serious war crimes trial
since Nuremberg at the end
of World War II.
Ratko Mladic, commander of Serb
forces in the Bosnian war,
stands accused of genocide,
crimes against humanity
and violation of the customs of war.
The verdict is expected next week
in The Hague and will effectively
mark the end of more than two
decades of work there by
the International Criminal Tribunal.
So how do the victims
of Mladic's ethnic cleansing
and murder view this moment?
And what about other Bosnian Serbs
convicted in the Hague so long
ago that they've now
served their sentences
and gone home?
Mark Urban covered the Bosnian
war through the 1990s.
He returned there to speak
to those whose lives
were altered forever by the war.
He's with us now.
So much weight attached to this?
Most viewers in this country, it
feels like a long time ago but of
course, in Bosnia there are still
30,000 people, we can see their
faces, missing and unaccounted for
whose families do not even know how
or where they died but assume the
worst. And the country is still
divided between the government and
the Republic of Serbs, that creation
of the breakaway republic was the
central project of Ratko Mladic and
the political leaders so many people
still ask and it is a lively debate,
is there design still in place? And
both main communities still in
moments of anger threaten each other
but the resumption of war so there
is still the sense of unfinished
We have seen more
conflicts since then, will we expect
In a way, this is
the uniqueness of what is coming up,
the political leader has been found
guilty but Mladic, the architect of
ethnic cleansing, they invented this
term, he is coming up for sentencing
and it is very unusual, traffic,
Assad, some people would like to see
the Israelis in front of the
criminal court and all of these
cases have been vetoed, today I
vetoed by the Soviet Union on
investigation of Syrian possible use
of chemical weapons, the tenth
Russian veto, they referred that the
International Criminal Court back in
2014 along with the Chinese and the
Americans have stopped their allies
being involved it is very
exceptional and the feelings aroused
by General Mladic and what happened
are still so Rourke as we discovered
when we went back to Bosnia.
Bosnia is a place haunted
by what its people did to one
another during their war.
And today, the victims' demand
demand for an accounting of past
crimes must be balanced
with the country's desire, somehow,
to escape them and move forward.
In an old factory in central Bosnia,
the human cost of the war
is still being measured.
For it is here that unidentified
corpses from mass graves
are being delivered,
even today, and the families
of 30,000 still missing
search for answers.
This is overwhelming,
in a certain way.
There are pictures of the missing.
There are human remains pretty
much everywhere here.
By the hundreds.
And then, at the end,
there are scraps of clothing
and other things that have been
recovered with them.
And this place is the main hope that
a lot of the families of those
missing have for discovering
what on earth happened to a loved
one who just disappeared
all those years ago.
Having covered the war 25 years ago,
I've come back to explore the impact
that one particularly malign man had
on the lives of thousands.
Ratko Mladic commanded Serb
forces in the Bosnian war.
He is now facing a verdict
on an enormous catalogue of war
crimes, including genocide.
It has taken six years to try.
Four days ago marked two decades
since Ratko Mladic became
the commander of the main staff
of the army of Republika
Srpska, the VRS.
On that day he assumed the mantle
of realising through military might
the criminal goals of ethnically
cleansing much of Bosnia.
Musreta Sivac was a judge herself
in the north-western town
of Prijedor when Serb troops took
over in May 1992.
She was fired and became one
of thousands of Muslims sent
to Omarska, an iron ore plant that
would become infamous
as a camp where, in a few
months, 700 inmates died.
Omarska was the product of what was
called ethnic cleansing -
driving non-Serbs out
of much of Bosnia.
37 women were used to serve
in the camp's dining hall.
During the day they could hear
torture going on in
the nearby dormitories.
And night brought its own anguish.
Mr Kvocka, please rise.
Early on, The Hague tribunal tried
several of the Omarska guards.
One of those trials
featured Miroslav Kvocka.
A policeman at the start of the war,
he was described in court as deputy
commander of the camp.
Then, as now, he portrays himself
as someone who saved his Muslim
wife's relatives from the horror
of the camp.
The chamber considers that isolated
acts of kindness to some prisoners
do not absorb any individual
of crimes which may
have been committed.
The court said he was culpable
of joint enterprise.
He knew what was going
on and didn't stop it.
The chamber finds you guilty
of the crime against humanity,
persecution, and the war crimes,
murder and torture.
In the war we used to travel
into Sarajevo via Mount Igman.
We're here again.
This place, a remnant
of the Winter Olympics,
became a battleground as the focus
of the war shifted from the area
around Prijedor to Bosnia's capital.
From the beginning of the conflict,
Mladic brought to bear the Serb
army's superiority in artillery.
And as this intercepted
conversation showed, used it
against the population of Sarajevo.
So, you had come out
of the flat that morning?
Mia Karamehic was a seven-year-old
living on this street.
The siege had just started
and she was brought out
by a rumour of ice cream.
The earth began to shake.
I went flying up in the air.
I could see everybody
lying on the street.
People in pieces, a lot of blood.
In those dreadful moments,
in which 20 people died,
a cameraman captured this fleeting
image of Mia being carried off.
She survived shrapnel wounds.
Her mother lost a leg in the blast.
Together, the family
and neighbours endured
the following three years
during which, at times, 1000 shells
a day would fall on the city.
The Hague process has gone
on for so long that some convicts
have done their time in European
prisons and come home.
A few years ago, jubilant
crowds turned out to meet
Momcilo Krajisnik as he returned.
He was the speaker of the Serb
parliament and, having
served his punishment,
accepts people on his side were also
guilty of war crimes.
But across in the east
of the country, events reached
a tipping point in the final year
of the war.
The genocide indictment
against General Ratko Mladic divides
his crimes into various phases.
The early part of the war around
Prijedor in north-west Bosnia.
Then the siege of
Sarajevo in the centre.
And then, finally, the enormous
catalogue of crimes that took place
in this place in 1995.
The UN had declared the Srebrenica
enclave to be a safe area.
But in fact, as Mladic
planned its capture,
the Dutch UN troops who were meant
to defend it had been
by their higher commanders.
Srebrenica was overrun and more
than 20,000 frightened Muslim women
and children crammed
into the Dutch base.
Rob Zomer was one of
the soldiers there.
Still, any time when I walk in this
door, a split-second,
I smell and see the people.
There is no toilets.
You cannot mention how much it was.
Thousands of people.
As Srebrenica fell, one woman gave
Rob Zomer her baby to look after.
How desperate must a lady be to give
to some strange guy,
because he has a blue helmet?
Because in that moment
it was the best thinking
for her to give her baby.
He passed the child
onto medics and it survived.
Mladic guaranteed the women
and children's safe passage.
But meanwhile, his troops hunted
the men of Srebrenica.
They were gathered in
places like this school.
The man who told us that -
Mevludin Oric - went back with us
for only the second time since Serb
troops brought him and hundreds
of others here to kill them.
Mevludin survived by playing dead
among the corpses and at night
he escaped over the mountains
to government territory.
In Prijedor, where Musreta Sivac
returned after the war,
there are also reminders everywhere.
Some men who were never arrested,
others who have served
their sentences and she now
encounters on the streets.
Miroslav Kvocka, taking labouring
jobs since his return,
is unable to leave the past behind
or get over what he
regards as an injustice.
Mevludin Oric is haunted
by the loss of his father,
brother and numerous cousins
and also by the fact that he still
recognises Serbs around
here from those killing fields.
For Momcilo Krajisnik, it's
pointless quibbling with a sentence
he has already served.
He is done with raging
against the Hague and today
thinks politicians have
to leave their sectarian
Thousands of survivors demand that
as trials end soon in The Hague,
the pursuit of war crimes should go
on in Bosnia itself.
And that's what will happen
in a country where the political
elites that started the war
and benefit from continued division
still call the shots.
That film by Mark Urban
and producer Maria Polahovska.
You can see a longer version
of the film on Our World this
Saturday and Sunday at 9.30pm
on the BBC News Channel.
Brexit Secretary David Davis has
been speaking in Berlin tonight,
telling the EU not to put politics
above prosperity as he addressed
an economic summit.
He also suggested the EU would need
to "think creatively" about how
things would operate post-Brexit.
Nicholas Watt is here.
Did you hear threat or promise?
I think it shows robust vision UK
side is what they regard as an
inflexible approach by the EU these
negotiations and they want some
flexibility and thinking about the
great trading opportunities you
could have with one of the richest
countries in the world but it is
also interesting to note that David
Davis was more emollient on the
issue of the Brexit financial
settlement, as he made clear in a
question and answer with the editor
of the Suddeutsche Zeitung.
Are we approaching
between 20 and the 100?
Wait for another few weeks before I
What those rather jovial remarks by
David Davis show is that the UK is
prepared to put more than the 20
billion that is already on the table
ahead of the next European Council
This sounds odd but why
does the money matter so much?
Britain hopes that if they can put
the money on the table, extra money,
that the EU will then open up the
future trade talks and that they
would also outline the frameworks of
the implementation period and this
was a point that David Davis made
clear in his speech tonight.
But no matter what approach we take,
both sides will need time
to implement those new arrangements.
That is why the Prime Minister set
out in her Florence speech
that we want to secure
a time-limited transition period.
That would mean access to the UK
and European markets
would continue on current terms,
keeping both the rights
of a European Union member
and the obligations of one,
such as the role of
the European Court of Justice.
That also means staying
in all the EU regulators
and agencies during that limited
period, which, as I say, we would
expect to be about two years.
Now what is interesting there, at
the beginning of those remarks,
David Davis talked about a
transition period. That is the
language used by the EU. The Prime
Minister talks about an
implementation period, implementing
the future agreement over a phased
period and he also talked about
during that two-year period, the UK
would have to observe the rights and
obligations of the EU.
Thank you for
Last night, we asked
what would happen if Robert Mugabe
refused to step down.
Tonight, he appears to be refusing.
There have been no public
statements, just a few photos that
have emerged of the 93-year-old
leader meeting the army chief
leading the move against him
and envoys sent from South Africa.
We did hear from Mugabe's long-time
rival, the opposition
leader Morgan Tsvangirai.
In the interest of the people
of Zimbabwe, Mr Robert Mugabe must
resign, step down immediately,
in line with the national
sentiment and expectation,
taking full regard of his legacy
and the contribution to Zimbabwe.
Mr Mugabe's Zanu-PF party has
promised free and fair elections,
but not until next August.
They are scheduled then.
We'll hear first from
Shingai Nyoka who's in Harare.
I began by asking her what the
atmosphere was like in Zimbabwe this
They are waiting
for an announcement.
Today, President Robert Mugabe
met with the generals
as well as with South African envoys
and on social media there was a
flurry and people were wondering
whether at the end of those
negotiations there would be some
kind of announcement about what the
We understand that those talks
were done but it is not
clear whether President Mugabe made
any kind of agreement with the
generals but the pictures appeared
of him with one of the commanders
who many believe has
led this takeover,
and they shook hands
and they were smiling and so people
are generally confused about what is
actually happening and how
and where this will all end.
Has there been any sign of Mugabe's
wife, Grace, or indeed
of the deposed vice president,
who fled the country?
There has been no sign
of Grace Mugabe ever since this
In fact, President Mugabe
only emerged today
after days where he has been under
house arrest and there was no
mention of where his wife is.
There has been a lot
of speculation and rumour
about whether she has left
the country or whether
she is still here.
But the belief is that she remains
in Zimbabwe and the deposed
vice president, we understand,
is still outside the country.
There has been a lot of secrecy
around the events of
the last few days and people
are just waiting and hoping that the
next few days will bring
some kind of clarity.
Thank you very much.
Earlier, I spoke to Eddie Cross.
He was one of the founder
members for the Movement
for Democratic Change,
Zimbabwe's main opposition party
for which he is still
a Member of Parliament.
Security in the nation's capital
is currently difficult
so we spoke to him over Skype.
Eddie Cross, your leader
Morgan Tsvangirai has said he wants
Mugabe gone within 24 hours.
What do you understand
has happened now?
Well, I think it's quite clear,
the military have certainly taken
charge of events in Zimbabwe
but the man behind the military
is Emmerson Mnangagwa.
This has been a very carefully
orchestrated and smooth operation.
It has been managed extremely
well, with the minimum
of bloodshed so far.
And I think that Mr Mugabe
has little or no choice
at all but in fact to tender his
the next 24 hours.
I think Morgan was absolutely
right about that.
And I don't think he has any
option but to do so.
What happens if he just refuses?
Oh, I really can't
see that happening.
Because he's lost
complete support here.
His own compatriots
in the War Veterans League,
which is very influential,
have abandoned him.
The public attitude
towards the situation
is one of jubilation.
They are delighted
with the move adopted,
the moves adopted by the army.
And I think that really, regionally,
he has little or no support.
I don't think the Sadc meeting today
in Gaborone has any chance
whatsoever of bringing any influence
to bear on him.
Is he still trying to get his wife
Grace as his successor?
Is that the plan?
No, I think that's dead and gone.
That's done and dusted.
I don't think she's in the country.
I think she's left the country.
And I think that she
won't come back.
That, that I think
is dead and buried.
But I think the issue now is,
because the man, the person
who holds the constitutional right
to power is Mugabe.
And he has to resign and hand over
power to Emmerson Mnangagwa
if the transition of power is to be
constitutional and I think
that is their objective.
And would you expect,
if that happens, for your party
leader, Morgan Tsvangirai,
to become the Prime Minister under
There's no provision
for a Prime Minister
under our present constitution
so that would require
a constitutional change.
But what Morgan made very clear
today was that he would,
he would call for a transitional
government to run the country
for a short period and to repair
the country for a free and fair
election which could then be...
Could then be contested by everybody
who wants to contest,
in the shortest possible time.
I, I think that those negotiations
almost certainly will start
because I don't think
Emmerson Mnangagwa has any
option but to do a deal.
This has all been talked about very
calmly with great orderliness,
almost forgetting that he is one
of the most brutal
dictators of our time.
Do you believe that Mugabe should be
held responsible now for war crimes
against his own people?
That is a tough call because,
you know, in the end,
we have got to live together.
I don't think that...
I don't think that we
will humiliate Mugabe.
I think that we will allow him
to retire with dignity.
What he wants, what he's asking
for is protection for his assets.
He's a multi-billionaire.
And I'm not sure whether we can
extend our generosity
to that extent.
But the question of prosecuting him
for his past abuses of people here,
the genocide in the 80s,
for example, during gukurahundi,
I don't think that'll happen.
I think that he will be allowed
to retire with dignity and I think
that is what Africa would want.
Eddie Cross, many thanks.
Much will depend on how the wider
community views any change and one
intriguing question, where does
China stand, a country that invested
so much, built infrastructure within
Zimbabwe under Mugabe's rule. Here
is Mike Thompson.
Almost before the British flag had
descended the flagpole, the newly
independent Zimbabwe rushed to forge
diplomatic ties with China, which
had supported the war against white
minority rule. Since then these two
nations, each often shunned by the
Western world, has grown ever
closer. Not so much a marriage of
love, more won of financial
convenience. Money for cash-strapped
Harare and raw materials for a
source hungry Beijing. The Chinese
currency is traded in Zimbabwe
alongside the mighty US dollar and
guess where they came from? Not
Washington but Beijing's huge stash
of foreign reserves. Over the past
couple of years China has put $30
million every month into Zimbabwe,
built the new parliament building,
given 0% longs for a medical
facilities, constructed academic
centres, operated platinum mines and
invested in power plants and
promised a further $4 billion in
China is the most
important player in Zimbabwe. Over 1
billion US dollars in 2013. China is
one of the top trading partners of
Given this cosy and
rewarding relationship, isn't
Beijing upset about its old friend,
Robert Mugabe, being given the push?
Going by the lack of any Chinese
requests for his reinstatement,
I don't think China is
terribly worried about Mugabe's
leadership. The relationship between
China and Zimbabwe is not just a
relationship between China and
China's concerns about Mr
Mugabe's mismanagement of the
Zimbabwean economy have apparently
been showing themselves for
sometimes, in the shape of promised
Chinese investments that have failed
Mugabe has been irritated
by the fact that large investment,
joint ventures in the resource
sector and things of that nature
have often not actually been
implemented and the consequences of
that have been to keep the economy
in its continued tailspin.
move against Mugabe have come
because his rule was impoverishing
Zimbabwe's elite as well as hitting
One of the things
that Mugabe had done or the
government had done in recent years
was to cancel licences in the
diamond fields, where there were
joint ventures and with dumb two
Chinese companies in particular but
the military backed interest in
exploiting diamonds. And this seemed
to be a signal that business as
usual could not carry on.
the head of Zimbabwe's armed forces
went to Beijing last week, rather
than asking permission to oust Mr
Mugabe, was the instead explaining
why it took him so long? Micah
Josh Rivers has described his own
comments as horrible.
Said they were cries for help
and came from a place
of deep unhappiness.
Nevertheless, the newly appointed
editor of the magazine Gay Times has
had his employment terminated
with immediate effect
following an investigation
into the abhorrent things
he wrote on Twitter.
The magazine has also removed
all articles written by Rivers.
Three years ago, Rivers
was posting tweets that
were anti-semitic, anti-transgender.
He lashed out at lesbians,
and fat people and ugly
people and disabled kids.
Here's a sample.
That is just a flavour.
He apologised today
and said he'd changed.
So, you're probably thinking, "One
bigot with a pretty big problem.
It could be anyone, anywhere".
So why are there voices now
suggesting a wider problem?
What are they pointing at?
Let's discuss this with Mabin Azar,
journalist and film maker,
and Tofer Campbell, film maker
and writer, and friend
of Josh Rivers.
Very nice to have you both here.
think this is a wider problem? I do,
it might make us really
uncomfortable and I think a lot of
people winced when this came out, it
makes me hugely uncomfortable that
this happened but we have to
confront the truth here and that is
from my perspective, lots of people
in minority groups, including lots
of gay men, are angry and bitter and
we have to understand where that
comes from. From a place of trauma
and hurt. It is to do with being
judged since they were kids and so
forth. There is a context there. But
it means that as a community, we are
acid tongued and we can be
misogynistic, we can be racist and
sometimes we feel that we have
license to lash out. And that is not
in any way acceptable.
extraordinary thing to say. Do you
Firstly, I would say
it is a remarkable claim that Gay
Times appointed the first person of
colour to a major gay magazine and
that is a great thing and also that
is because of the work that Josh
Rivers had done at the magazine for
some time and he has been doing this
work and engaging with you and young
audiences and readers and bringing
in a more diverse readership so that
is the reason he was there and it
was a significant appointment, here
in 2017, that that happened. That is
why we are talking about it.
fair, we're talking about it because
of those incredibly offensive and
abhorrent tweets that got him
sacked. Do you condone what he
Absolutely not. He himself
has apologised and he has also been
sacked and he has paid the price. It
is interesting how I think people of
colour who are leaders and queer
people, they get judged by different
standards. You can see this with the
resignation of the sacking of Priti
Patel. But Boris Johnson has called
black people pick on knees in print.
When you see the standards applied
to black and queer leadership, they
are very different to those applied
to white leadership. This is partly
to do with some of the way...
think this is really difficult and a
lot of the online discourse after
their story broke today and lots of
people have said things like, there
is a misogynist running the White
House so this is small news. Let us
be realistic, the story here is that
somebody in a position of power,
yes, a person of colour and it is
wonderful Gay Times appointed him,
and I am also, as a British Asian,
but this was great. But that is not
the story. The story is, he
insulted, he was racist and
misogynistic and insulted old
people, fat people, disabled people,
30 much most of society. That is the
issue and we need to face up to that
as a problem and not turn him into
He is not the victim.
They started by saying that he
recognises something of the acid
tongue, people think of their own
victimisation and giving them a
license to say but they like about
other members of the community?
you recognise that? I recognise that
in the gay community and the queer
community there is a lot of
self-loathing, lack of
self-confidence, which has brought
around by the wider society issues
of homophobia. I recognise that if
you are black and queer and a person
of colour, you're in a situation
where you have a double situation of
racism and homophobia, Josh Rivers,
as somebody who has recognised that
when he was younger that he has gone
through a self-loathing period and
that is something we have to
definitely think about. I think that
for people of colour who are queer
and generally, issues of racism and
homophobia are ones which we have to
face from the wider society and the
wider gay society also and that is
something we have to think about. I
am very worried about creating the
prior of a black, gay man who has
had one small position.
critical. If you enlarge this too
much you create more of a sense if
we knew this would happen if we
appointed a black gay man to that
What it is not just about
a black gay man, it is about his
position of responsibility. It makes
me uncomfortable to talk about this
publicly but lots of gay men and gay
people generally do have this sense
of entitlement about things like
misogyny. I have been in rooms with
lots of gay men who refer to women
in the most awful way and they will
say it is a joke and I know that
comes from a place of trauma and
hurt. As a community, we need to
address that. I am not saying
anything that Josh has not said
himself, today he said he is on a
journey. The issue is, we can be
cynical. Of course he is a journey
because he was caught doing
something he should not have done.
Of course you can say that now.
Josh? I know Josh personally and he
is definitely on a journey in terms
of his personal development and his
development into perhaps a
high-profile position as a leader.
Only talk about having the
conversation, let us talk about...
Recently, the person who owns a
nightclub, Jeremy Joseph, tweeted
around the idea that all Somalians
are robbers and we have had
comments, much more insidious racism
and even the alliteration and
invisibility of black queer people
in the gay media and the mainstream
media speaks to other kinds of
conversations we have to have. I
would like to have this conversation
where we talk about the recent
survey around gay racism where 85%
of black gay men felt they had
experienced racism. 79% of races --
These are very important.
We need to have a longer debate
about this and I am sorry to cut you
off. We have run out of time. We
will return to this. Thank you both
That's it for this evening.
But first, you may have seen
The Sun's front page today,
accusing BBC workers of snoozing
on the job.
Tonight we can exclusively reveal
it's just the tip of the iceberg.
Not a soul in Broadcasting
House is awake.
BBC output is quite
literally dreamed up
by producers in their sleep.
Needless to say, the Newsnight team
is already hard at work conjuring up
another fine programme
which we will no doubt bring
you tomorrow with Kirsty.
Hello, we started the week
with a frost and we're
going to end the week with one.
Widespread frost as we start
off on Friday morning.
Plenty of sunshine to follow,
though quite windy with showers
into northern Scotland and gales
into the Northern Isles but most
places will have a dry day
and with plenty of sunshine.
There will be a bit of patchy cloud
in Northern Ireland and you may just
catch a shower skimming
the north coast.
The showers mostly in the north
and west of Scotland,
mostly into the north-west
with the strongest winds
and here into the Northern Isles.
The odd one may filter a bit
further east but most
of us here will stay dry.
Including the Bosnian war, the latest on David Davis' Brexit speech in Berlin and will Mugabe go?