04/12/2017 Newsnight


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04/12/2017

With Emily Maitlis. What went wrong with today's Brexit deal? Plus the latest on eastern Ghouta, and are we too blase about the rise of pornography?


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Ever get the sense you're

being dragged around by someone

0:00:080:00:11

who shouldn't be able to do it?

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Tonight:

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Has Theresa May had her tail

caught by the DUP -

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what did just happened to that

Brexit deal over the Irish border.

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Is it gone or just on pause?

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We were satisfied earlier today

to report substantial progress along

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lines that would have enabled us

to advise President Juncker

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and the Barnier negotiating team

to report sufficient progress

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on these matters to

the heads of state.

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We're not quite there yet, no.

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But I think with goodwill,

we can get there.

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Also tonight:

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The besieged Syrian rebel enclave

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of eastern Ghouta is struck by one

of the worst bombardments

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in nearly five years.

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We talk to rescue workers

and medics on the ground.

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And...

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it might have been Damian Green.

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Or it might have been someone else.

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But why aren't we more shocked

at the idea of thousands

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of pornographic images

being discovered on a work computer?

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Has porn become more

socially acceptable?

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And what effect is that having?

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We'll discuss.

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Good evening.

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Jean-Claude Juncker wore his

anglophile Burberry tie today,

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a hint that the more eagle-eyed

amongst us took to be

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a sure sign that a deal

with Britain was imminent.

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In the end, it was not to be.

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What looked, sounded and felt

like a potential Brexit solution

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to the Irish border was put on pause

in the briefest of press

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conferences at around four o'

clock this afternoon.

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The sticking point?

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What the DUP - who prop up

Theresa May's Conservatives -

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suggested was "sloppy language"

on the part of the Irish government.

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From what we understand,

Ireland had been expecting to sign

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off a statement that promised

a continued regulatory framework

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north of the border,

after Britain leaves the EU.

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But following stern words from DUP

leader Arlene Foster,

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the PM appeared to back track,

perhaps fearing she had

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misjudged the moment.

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The deal is far from dead.

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But it needs more time

and perhaps - who knows -

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new concessions to the DUP

for their support.

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Let's go to Nick Watt

for his take on the day.

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The Prime Minister had gone into

these talks with Downing Street

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describing them as a staging post on

the way to the European Council next

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week. But Theresa May had hoped to

get a deal today and had pencilled

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in a statement to Parliament

tomorrow. But it didn't happen

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because the DUP took fright at

reports from Dublin in the Brexit

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deal, there would be a decoration

that there would be no regulatory

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divergence between Northern Ireland

and the Republic of Ireland. So what

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is actually in that deal? I

understand from the UK said that the

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deal on Northern Ireland covers

three scenarios from good to bad.

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The good scenario - there is an

overall free trade agreement between

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the UK and the EU at the end of this

process, and you get a frictionless

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board automatically from that deal.

Scenario number two is that if that

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doesn't happen, there would be a

bespoke arrangement for Northern

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Ireland. In the worst-case scenario

which the UK Government doesn't will

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happen, you would then have, if you

fail to do that, a decoration that

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there would be full alignment of

those elements that are currently

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there, cross-border cooperation from

the Good Friday Agreement. So that

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is transport, the single electricity

market and agriculture, and then the

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document says, how do you achieve

that? It has two ideas. One is to

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have harmonisation of regulation,

and the other is to have regulatory

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equivalents. The UK would want it to

be regulatory equivalents because

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the UK would decide, these are the

regulations, but that you would want

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harmonisation because we were just

agree with them. So I have been

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looking at how this row broke out

today.

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Love wasn't quite in the air, but a

deal appeared to be in sight.

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Theresa May pitched up in Brussels

for lunch and over the road, Donald

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Tusk dared to joke about how much he

likes Mondays. All seemed fine,

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until the lunch run over schedule

and then broke up without agreement

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when Theresa May and Jean-Claude

Juncker finally spoke, it was all

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over rather quickly.

Ladies and

gentlemen, it was not possible to

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reach a complete agreement today.

He

spoke for less than two minutes.

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Thank you very much, Jean-Claude. On

a couple of issues, some differences

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do remain which require further

negotiation.

She spoke for just 40

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seconds. Hopes of a breakthrough

today fell apart over Northern

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Ireland. The Irish Prime Minister,

who had been planning to hail a deal

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just after lunch, kept his head down

for three hours, and then this.

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Following the government meeting

this morning, the Irish negotiating

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team receives confirmation from the

British government and the Barnier

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task force that the United Kingdom

had agreed a text on the border that

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met our concerns. This text would

form part of the border EU - UK

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agreement on phase one and would

allow us all to move on to face two.

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I was then contacted by the

president of the European

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Commission, President Juncker and

the president of the European

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Council, president Tusk. I confirmed

to them both Ireland's agreement to

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that text. I am surprised and

disappointed that the British

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government now appears not to be in

a position to conclude what was

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agreed earlier today.

The deal ran

into trouble after reports that one

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draft stated that there would be no

divergence in EU rules across the

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Irish border would support the Good

Friday Agreement. This was

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clarified, but the DUP were furious

at what they saw as an attempt to

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prise Northern Ireland away from the

rest of the UK.

We have been very

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clear. Northern Ireland must leave

the European Union on the same terms

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as the rest of the UK and we will

not accept any form of regulatory

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divergence which separates Northern

Ireland economically or politically

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from the rest of the UK. The

economic and constitutional

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integrity of the United Kingdom must

not be compromised.

There is

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frustration in Downing Street, where

there is a feeling that Brussels and

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Dublin overhyped the proposed deal.

This has, if only temporarily,

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torpedoed Theresa May's efforts to

inch forward the Brexit negotiations

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with the support of the DUP. So we

can expect the Prime Minister to

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embark on a charm offensive to

reassure the DUP that her plans are

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far more modest. At their heart,

this would involve embedding in the

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final Brexit deal those elements of

cross-border cooperation emanating

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from the Good Friday Agreement. At

the moment, unionists in Northern

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Ireland are nervous.

I think it has

made things much more difficult,

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what happened today. If there had

been an agreed form of wording with

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the DUP beforehand, it might have

been possible to present it as a

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joint DUP - Conservative proposal. I

think it will be difficult now.

In

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London and Dublin, there is hope

that a deal will soon be reached.

I

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think today has been successful. We

understand that later this week,

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there is every prospect of a deal,

so satisfying the European Union

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that in its words, sufficient

progress has been made, which will

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set us up for a favourable

conclusion to the summit on the 15th

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of December. That is what we are

working towards. The mood here at

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Westminster is far more upbeat than

I have known it for some time. So I

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think with compromise on both sides,

because that is the nature of any

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negotiation, we are set fair for

some good news before Christmas.

We

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have negotiated in good faith with

the entire British negotiating team,

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David Davis and Michel Barnier will

meet again this week. Theresa May

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and Jean-Claude Juncker had a good

meeting today and we are hopeful

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that the Prime Minister will be able

to get this agreement over the line

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with the DUP and other factors in

time for the Council meeting in

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December. We wish her luck and we

hope Wigan get this resolved as soon

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as possible. We desperately want to

move to face two of the negotiating

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process.

Today, the hands of history

didn't quite meet. All parties in

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the Brexit talks will be hoping we

won't have to wait too long for that

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handshake. We heard Andy Muir and

saying he thought it would happen

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next week before the summit.

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The UK Government has always

believed unofficially that this

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Friday is the deadline to get an

agreement, because after that it is

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difficult to make substantial

changes to a European Council draft

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summit. So the Prime Minister will

be talking to the DUP leader and

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possibly going to Brussels to meet

Jean-Claude Juncker and Donald Tusk

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again this week. One member of the

Cabinet said, we are fundamentally

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in agreement with Dublin on this.

But this person said, there is a bit

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of a dance. We are a minority

government, and so are they. But the

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DUP are really upset. I spoke to one

senior DUP figure at the heart of

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this, and this person said to me, we

in Northern Ireland cannot have a

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border with GB. It is our biggest

market. We are not stupid. I said to

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this person, is Theresa May

listening to you? And this person

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said, oh, yes, she has no choice.

So, when and how did it all

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unravelled?

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Well, earlier I asked Ireland's

Agriculture Minister Michael Creed

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what he made of the day's events.

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Well, I suppose in essence

we thought we had a deal

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in the early afternoon and it turns

out that we didn't and that's

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obviously somewhat disappointing

but look, I suppose,

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given the commitment of both sides

to further engagement and given

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the fact that we have a deadline

of the December Council on the 14th

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and 15th of December,

and given the fact that I think

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everybody, Irish government

included, wants us to be

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in a position to move to phase two,

I certainly think that with goodwill

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on all sides, that can be achieved.

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I don't want to underestimate

the significance of the issues that

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have yet to be agreed.

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What do you think actually

went wrong today?

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Well, I think in essence,

that is probably a question that

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would be best directed

to Prime Minister May.

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Because we felt, as I indicated,

that we had the broad outline

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of an agreement earlier and that

sufficient progress could be

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reported by the European task force

to the heads of state.

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It's obvious that the DUP

have issues with regard

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to island of Ireland issues.

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We have particular issues we have

put to the forefront from day one

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and that's been about ensuring

that the UK leaving

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the European Union doesn't give

rise to a hard border

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with the island of Ireland.

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Just to understand that,

was your understanding this morning

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that the DUP had been signed

up to it?

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Because obviously, they were always

going to have misgivings about this.

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Was your understanding

that they were signed up and then

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they changed their minds or that

they've never been signed up

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and she was going to go

ahead with it anyway?

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Look, the negotiations are conducted

primarily by the European task force

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with Michel Barnier at the helm

and the UK Government.

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Over the weekend, yes,

the Irish government was heavily

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involved in the detail over

the issues of the island of Ireland

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and in particular our insistence

that in the context

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of phase one of these

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negotiations, that we get in writing

a commitment that there would not be

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a hard border re-emerging.

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The DUP are critical to

power-sharing in Northern Ireland.

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Wasn't it a mistake to overlook how

essential to these talks they were?

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Well, I mean, the DUP are one

voice in Northern Ireland

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which regrettably doesn't

have a power-sharing executive

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in place at the moment.

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They are a critical voice

in the context of the parliamentary

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arithmetic in Westminster.

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We're not a party to that.

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We negotiate in the European Union

with the British government

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and with Prime Minister May.

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So it's not incumbent on the Irish

government to engage directly,

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but we are of course open

and willing to engage with the DUP.

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In fact, I personally believe

that our concerns, when they boil

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down to it, are concerns that

are broadly shared by

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the vast majority of people

in Northern Ireland.

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Newsnight understands this evening

that three possible scenarios

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were on the table for this deal

which may still go ahead.

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Either an all-UK deal,

free trade with the EU,

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which would look and sound,

I guess, like a soft

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Brexit or a customs union.

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Or a bespoke deal for

Northern Ireland or some deal that

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would just look at areas

of cross-border co-operation.

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Is that what you understand

this deal was about,

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the cross-border cooperation?

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Well, as I understand,

the deal was about ensuring

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regulatory alignment,

that we did not have

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the necessity for a border

between Newry and Dundalk,

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between Derry and Donegal.

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And, you know, whatever means

we employ to achieve that,

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regulatory alignment,

remaining in the customs union

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or the single market,

whatever political invention

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is required to come up

with a solution that

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delivers on that, you know,

that's something we are

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excessively prescriptive about.

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But we do know what it is we want.

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Let me try and pin you down

on that, because that seems

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to be where the language

is getting confused.

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The Northern Ireland agreement,

as things stand, only mentions,

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doesn't it, agriculture,

energy and transport.

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Are you wanting to see every

regulation across every sector

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covered by the same EU deal,

the north and south?

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Is that where you're heading?

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Is it convergence rather than just

alignment of what you have?

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Well, I think the terminology

that was being used,

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was regulatory alignment.

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It's important to bear in mind

that this isn't in many respects

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breaking new ground.

0:15:210:15:25

We have alignment on an all Ireland

basis at the moment on issues

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that there isn't alignment

between Ireland for example

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and the rest of the United Kingdom,

for example in the area of animal

0:15:300:15:33

health we have it, in the area

of food safety we have it.

0:15:330:15:36

So this isn't, you know,

revolutionary in its concept.

0:15:360:15:39

What I'm asking, are you looking

for convergence on all of the other

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areas as well, all the other

sectors, or would you be happy

0:15:440:15:47

to stick with those three

specifically mentioned

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in the Northern Ireland agreement?

0:15:480:15:54

No, what we want is a situation

where we achieve in these outcomes

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a situation where there

isn't a border emerging.

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We are preoccupied by that,

not for trade reasons

0:15:590:16:01

but for political reasons.

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We do not want an emergence

of a border again and all

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of the historical issues associated

with a border.

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For good reasons.

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These lessons aren't lost on any

section of the community

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in Northern Ireland

or the Republic of Ireland.

0:16:160:16:19

And indeed in the broader

United Kingdom, they are not lost.

0:16:190:16:22

Because we've paid

an excessively heavy price.

0:16:220:16:24

We were satisfied with what we had

today in the context

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of a regulatory alignment that that

would deliver on that.

0:16:270:16:29

Thank you very much indeed.

0:16:290:16:36

We wrong we labelled Arlene Foster

as the first minute, she is the DUP

0:16:360:16:45

leader.

0:16:450:16:46

Our Diplomatic Editor

Mark Urban is here.

0:16:460:16:48

There is a theory that there is a

game to what Theresa May is doing

0:16:480:16:53

and that there is something in place

here.

If you take today's language

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and misunderstanding is out of the

picture, those options you were

0:17:000:17:03

discussing, complete convergence,

partial or Northern Ireland or

0:17:030:17:10

Justice guarantee that was

controversial all of them would

0:17:100:17:12

create some kind of border, if

Ireland were taken to be on the same

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regime. We know that is not

acceptable for the DUP. And

0:17:190:17:25

actually, in Dublin last week,

talking to a lot of people, it is

0:17:250:17:30

pretty unacceptable to the business

community who don't want impediment

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on trade across the Irish Sea. That

gives us a clue that the softer form

0:17:350:17:40

of Brexit is in sight for the

government here. We've seen all

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sorts of other clues, abandoning the

Brexit language, the transition

0:17:450:17:50

period, accepting the jurisdiction

of the European Court of Justice

0:17:500:17:54

during that period, the cannon of EU

law, it all trends in that direction

0:17:540:18:00

and we got a fascinating glimpse,

through the prism of Ireland, at

0:18:000:18:04

this possibility that there is a

plan and it's for a pretty soft form

0:18:040:18:07

of Brexit.

What would that look

like? We've got examples of what

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soft Brexit look like and they've

been rejected, whether it's the

0:18:140:18:16

Norway model or whatever.

For

Theresa May, she obviously wanted to

0:18:160:18:24

slalom around the critics on all

sides and that's why she came out

0:18:240:18:29

with Brexit means Brexit, red white

and blue Brexit, she's trying to

0:18:290:18:32

define it her own terms, because as

soon as she says we'd like something

0:18:320:18:37

like Norway it would become

impossible for people to coalesce.

0:18:370:18:42

Even in the Florence speech she

voiced this idea that no, we don't

0:18:420:18:46

want Norway, we don't want Canada,

we must be able to do better than

0:18:460:18:50

this binary option. Of course that's

what they hope, people say that it

0:18:500:18:56

is impossible, trying to have your

cake and eat it, you can't have this

0:18:560:19:00

deal, but it's possible that the UK

will get a bespoke package that, in

0:19:000:19:04

her terms, gets what she wants, the

closest possible relationship. That

0:19:040:19:10

means going pretty near to

convergence on the customs and

0:19:100:19:14

regulatory terms but carving out

British exceptions.

Thanks very

0:19:140:19:17

much.

0:19:170:19:19

As you may know by now,

this programme has chosen to focus

0:19:190:19:24

on a small area in the east

of Damascus, the only rebel-held

0:19:240:19:27

enclave between Assad's forces

capturing the whole of Damascus

0:19:270:19:29

and the surrounding area.

0:19:290:19:30

Eastern Ghouta is suffering

a humanitarian catastrophe -

0:19:300:19:33

children are starving,

the aid corridor is blocked.

0:19:330:19:37

But this weekend, things got even

worse: a bombardment of heavily

0:19:370:19:41

crowded areas by jets believed to be

Syrian and Russian.

0:19:410:19:44

The attacks left yet

more civilians dead.

0:19:440:19:49

Here's Mike Thompson.

0:19:490:19:54

While they discuss peace in Geneva,

bombs, shells and bullets do

0:19:540:19:57

the talking in Eastern Ghouta.

0:19:570:20:01

Last week's brief ceasefire has

0:20:010:20:03

given way to merciless violence,

inflicted mainly on civilians.

0:20:030:20:10

TRANSLATION:

The current status quo

is systematic targeting of every

0:20:130:20:15

living creature in Eastern Ghouta.

0:20:150:20:19

There is a population of more

than 375,000 people here.

0:20:190:20:22

Besieged by the regime forces.

0:20:220:20:25

Unfortunately, today

we are witnessing the annihilation

0:20:250:20:26

of an entire population.

0:20:260:20:32

In what is described as the fiercest

bombing of the area in years,

0:20:320:20:43

internationally-banned

cluster bombs are among

0:20:440:20:45

the deadly weapons being used.

0:20:450:20:47

A quick look at a map of Syria

shows why President Assad

0:20:470:20:50

is so determined to retake,

at almost any cost, this

0:20:500:20:53

rebel enclave sitting

on the capital's doorstep.

0:20:530:20:58

The death toll over the last month

has been rising steadily.

0:20:580:21:06

TRANSLATION:

More than 224 people

were killed due to the heavy

0:21:090:21:13

and deliberate bombardment,

and hundreds of civilians injured.

0:21:130:21:16

The tally could go up due

to the lack of medical supplies

0:21:160:21:20

in the treatment centres.

0:21:200:21:26

This long besieged area,

where malnutrition is rife,

0:21:260:21:28

isn't only pitifully short of food.

0:21:280:21:31

It's also fast running out

of much-needed medical supplies

0:21:310:21:34

to treat the soaring numbers

of ill and injured.

0:21:340:21:41

TRANSLATION:

As a doctor I can see

that emergency units

0:21:430:21:46

are lacking even basic medical

tools and supplies.

0:21:460:21:50

For example we don't have any

anaesthetic or medicine.

0:21:500:21:53

And of course we have to work

under heavy bombardment.

0:21:530:22:01

The task facing hard-pressed

doctors and rescue workers

0:22:010:22:02

grows tougher by the day.

0:22:020:22:06

And some now see help

from the outside world

0:22:060:22:08

as their only salvation.

0:22:080:22:13

TRANSLATION:

We plead

with all international

0:22:150:22:18

and humanitarian organisations

to help us lift the siege and stop

0:22:180:22:23

this barbaric machine

that is killing innocent people

0:22:230:22:25

under siege for the last five years.

0:22:250:22:28

And we ask them to open humanitarian

corridors immediately.

0:22:280:22:35

But with no sign of any letup

in the terrifying bombardment,

0:22:350:22:39

and President Assad evidently bent

on bringing this besieged

0:22:390:22:46

rebel area to its knees,

things might only get worse before

0:22:460:22:48

they get better for the hundreds

of thousands of people there.

0:22:480:22:58

Mike Thomson reporting.

0:22:580:23:00

Do you remember what you thought

when you heard police claiming that

0:23:000:23:02

a Tory MP's work computer had been

found with thousands

0:23:020:23:05

of pornographic images on it?

0:23:050:23:09

We were struck by how

little public outcry,

0:23:090:23:11

even surprise, there was.

0:23:110:23:12

Conservative colleagues rushed

to defend Damian Green,

0:23:120:23:13

who denied all the charges,

believing it outrageous

0:23:130:23:15

that the police had stored records

of a ten-year-old investigation.

0:23:150:23:20

Others reminded us that the images

were not illegal, not extreme.

0:23:200:23:23

Of course, we don't know

who downloaded the images,

0:23:230:23:26

or who used them, or how.

0:23:260:23:28

Instead, tonight we ask a bigger

question:

0:23:280:23:33

has porn become socially acceptable,

even in the workplace?

0:23:330:23:35

Are we less shockable

than we used to be?

0:23:350:23:42

Jerry Barnett is a free

speech campaigner and

0:23:420:23:44

author of "Porn Panic!"

0:23:440:23:45

Clarissa Smith is Professor

of Sexual Cultures

0:23:450:23:47

at the University of Sunderland.

0:23:470:23:48

Steve Pope is psychotherapist

who specialises in young people

0:23:480:23:51

addicted to pornography.

0:23:510:23:52

He's in Salford.

0:23:520:23:54

Nice to have you here. As far as we

know, do lots of people look at

0:23:540:24:02

pornography at work?

Well, there's

been numerous anecdotal kinds of

0:24:020:24:09

stories around that, actually. They

are very from at least 80% of the

0:24:090:24:16

workforce looking at five minutes of

pawn a day, down to very few people.

0:24:160:24:24

Clearly there are people looking at

pornography.

When you say 80%, is

0:24:240:24:29

that divided between the sexes?

This

is the problem with statistics about

0:24:290:24:35

pornography, we get straight into

that, they are extrapolations from

0:24:350:24:40

questions asked in particular

workplaces. No one really knows what

0:24:400:24:43

the stats are around pornography,

who is watching and where. We can be

0:24:430:24:48

sure I think that people are looking

at pornographic material simply

0:24:480:24:52

because we know that they spend

their time doing other kinds of

0:24:520:24:59

wasting work time, looking on eBay,

buying things on Amazon, a bit of

0:24:590:25:09

Lolcats.

So people are putting

pornography in that same bracket,

0:25:090:25:12

it's like Facebook, Internet

shopping and cat videos?

I think if

0:25:120:25:18

someone is looking at these things

on their own in a private office and

0:25:180:25:23

aren't involving anyone else, then

the chances are that yes, it is like

0:25:230:25:26

that.

Gosh. Did the story surprise

you? We're not bringing names into

0:25:260:25:34

it, we are looking to attach blame,

but would it surprise you is a lot

0:25:340:25:40

of people spend a lot of time at

work...?

It wouldn't surprise me. I

0:25:400:25:49

find from a lot of my civilian

friends, they are much more likely

0:25:490:25:52

to share pornographic images on

WhatsApp. It is ubiquitous, small

0:25:520:26:00

clips go around and people don't

seem to think much of it. If

0:26:000:26:06

anything, it was shocking, the idea

that people would be shocked by the

0:26:060:26:10

idea that an MP might look at

pornography that was allegedly

0:26:100:26:14

completely legal and not outside the

ordinary. I have been tracking the

0:26:140:26:23

pornography panic over at least a

decade. The moral panic seems to

0:26:230:26:28

have been within the media class and

the political class and from

0:26:280:26:35

campaigners...

When you talk about

moral panic, what do you mean?

Over

0:26:350:26:39

many years we'd been told, falsely,

that pornography is linked to sexual

0:26:390:26:44

violence, that it's linked to

objectification, sexualisation,

0:26:440:26:50

addiction, scary ideas. Actually,

what I wanted to do in writing my

0:26:500:26:55

book is look at why the panic is

happening. In the Digital Economy

0:26:550:27:03

Act In This Case, The Government

Used Pornography And Excuse To Make

0:27:030:27:06

Britain The First Democratic Country

On Earth To Introduce An Internet

0:27:060:27:09

Sensor With The Aim of censoring

pornography, a big story that the

0:27:090:27:17

media has missed.

Do you accept this

as a classification of panic over

0:27:170:27:22

pornography?

I think we should be

concerned about it. I don't do

0:27:220:27:28

statistics and labels, people don't

get well from that. People are

0:27:280:27:33

dying, kids are having a very

jaundiced view of text and watching

0:27:330:27:40

pornography from the age of 12 and

we are having to pick up the pieces

0:27:400:27:46

-- jaundiced view of sex. It is

interwoven in our society and to

0:27:460:27:54

downplay its the way that gentleman

has just done, it is wrong. It is

0:27:540:28:00

very serious.

You say you don't want

to cause panic and then went on to

0:28:000:28:04

say that people are dying.

He said

he didn't want to use statistics but

0:28:040:28:08

why wouldn't you panic, because he

works with children?

I've worked

0:28:080:28:15

with a couple today, a 12 and

13-year-old, both of them think that

0:28:150:28:22

50 Shades Of Grey is an acceptable

way to act out. If we think that's

0:28:220:28:27

acceptable, then the problem is

bigger than I think.

We've had this

0:28:270:28:31

before, we had it in the 80s with

the video nasty 's act, we had it

0:28:310:28:37

with the American, horror comics in

the 50s. When we say that people

0:28:370:28:43

think this way and they do that and

it's terrible and we need to deal

0:28:430:28:47

with pornography because it must be

that that's at the root of this, I'd

0:28:470:28:52

take the you make about the fact

that kids are learning about

0:28:520:29:00

emotional, well rounded sexual

relationships but pornography isn't

0:29:000:29:04

responsible for the education of

children.

You don't believe it's

0:29:040:29:07

that damaging?

If we believe that

pornography is a problem then we

0:29:070:29:13

should have comprehensive sex

education that recognises that young

0:29:130:29:18

people need lots of information,

that it will need to be explicit,

0:29:180:29:23

that we'll need to mechanise what's

sex means in a broader context than

0:29:230:29:28

just reproduction.

When you talk

about people sharing pornography on

0:29:280:29:34

WhatsApp, presumably you get it on

your phone and look at it wherever

0:29:340:29:37

you are, I've spoken to female

colleagues who say that the idea

0:29:370:29:40

that someone is looking at

pornography is looking on at

0:29:400:29:48

pornography and then carrying on a

conversation is freaky.

It probably

0:29:480:29:51

isn't best done at work.

But it is

and that is the problem.

If it

0:29:510:29:58

upsets people, it's probably not

suitable in the workplace but this

0:29:580:30:01

is an employment issue, not a harm

issue. I'd like to quote from the

0:30:010:30:06

government to have done research on

this. I'd like to point out, there's

0:30:060:30:12

a lot of doubt on whether follow-up

of the addiction exists. People make

0:30:120:30:17

money, the pornography addiction

therapy has been compared to the gay

0:30:170:30:21

killers of the religious right in

America -- gay cures. A quote

0:30:210:30:30

suggesting there is no link between

sex crimes and the use of

0:30:300:30:33

pornography at early age but there

is evidence for the opposite.

Let me

0:30:330:30:38

go back to Steve.

0:30:380:30:44

Here we go again. I work day in, day

out with children from the age of 12

0:30:440:30:47

to 17 who are materially influenced

by what they see as being normal

0:30:470:30:51

sexual acts which are usually

sexually aggressive acts. They are

0:30:510:30:55

acting out behaviours and they look

for a bigger hit. They can instantly

0:30:550:31:00

access it on their iPad.

But among

teenagers, sexual violence has

0:31:000:31:04

fallen.

I am telling you what I see

on the street. I am hands-on. I see

0:31:040:31:12

it happen everyday, and what I am

saying is that children are being

0:31:120:31:15

influenced. It is an awful influence

on them by the effect of

0:31:150:31:18

pornography. I agree with the lady,

we have to take it into primary

0:31:180:31:22

schools and we have to educate

children on the potential evils,

0:31:220:31:26

because it is an addictive issue.

Not everyone is affected, but it is

0:31:260:31:30

an addictive issue. It is an instant

high for boys looking at pornography

0:31:300:31:36

and we have to do something about

it.

Clarissa, the point is the ease

0:31:360:31:41

of accessibility. If it is skewing,

there is nothing that shuts this

0:31:410:31:48

down. When you talk about people

using it almost as a boredom tool at

0:31:480:31:53

work...

There is a whole set of

things at work that we are mixing up

0:31:530:31:59

here. When we talk about how the

media influences young people...

0:31:590:32:06

There are various levels of reality

that people engage with when viewing

0:32:060:32:10

media. Porn is just one form of talk

about sex in our culture. It's not

0:32:100:32:16

the only talk about sex. Actually,

one of the problems we have is that

0:32:160:32:26

maybe we are not offering good

counters to young people. But

0:32:260:32:31

actually, in this process, we are

now talking about porn at work and

0:32:310:32:36

we have ended up talking about

12-year-olds. These are not the same

0:32:360:32:40

thing. While adults may be looking

at porn at work, we could talk about

0:32:400:32:47

why work is so boring if that is

what is happening. If we are going

0:32:470:32:52

to talk about accessibility, there

are ways in which our work and home

0:32:520:32:57

lives have changed, and a border

between them has disappeared.

We

0:32:570:33:06

carry our smartphone is everywhere.

That as a whole bigger question, but

0:33:060:33:09

it was great to have the chance to

talk to you all. Thank you very

0:33:090:33:12

much.

0:33:120:33:16

If you can't tell your Jack Sparrow

from your chicken, your Taylor Swift

0:33:160:33:19

from your ostrich or Michael J Fox

from the creature that's knocking

0:33:190:33:22

over your bins at night -

then you're not alone.

0:33:220:33:24

Losing touch with nature

is a subject that also preoccupies

0:33:240:33:27

the travel writer Robert Macfarlane.

0:33:270:33:28

For Newsnight, we asked him

to author a film about his concerns.

0:33:280:33:31

MUSIC:

Chanson de Matin by Edward Elgar.

0:33:310:33:41

There are two things

that the British sentimentalise

0:33:440:33:47

more avidly than anything else.

0:33:470:33:49

Nature and childhood.

0:33:490:33:55

But these are crucial subjects

and to me, it's unmistakable

0:33:550:33:58

that a gap is currently widening

between children and the natural

0:33:580:34:00

world in this country.

0:34:000:34:10

Slugs and snails.

0:34:110:34:12

Shall I go and get them?

0:34:120:34:13

Three years ago, I read a paper

in the journal Science

0:34:130:34:16

and its findings startled me.

0:34:160:34:19

It was about children's everyday

knowledge of nature in this country.

0:34:190:34:22

And what the researchers discovered

is that children aged 8-11

0:34:220:34:24

were substantially better

at identifying common Pokemon

0:34:240:34:26

species than they were at

identifying common species

0:34:260:34:29

of British wildlife.

0:34:290:34:33

For weasel, read Weedle.

0:34:330:34:34

For wren, read Wigglytuff.

0:34:340:34:35

For badger, read Bulbasaur.

0:34:350:34:43

Any conkers under your feet?

0:34:430:34:49

I have about a thousand conkers.

0:34:490:34:50

You have about a thousand, do you?

0:34:500:34:52

That's good.

0:34:520:34:53

British children now spend

on average less time outdoors

0:34:530:34:55

each day than prisoners.

0:34:550:34:56

They're climbing walls, not trees.

0:34:560:34:58

Under an hour outside.

0:34:580:34:58

Screen time has soared and screen

time is mostly inside time.

0:34:580:35:01

Poverty, postcode, ethnicity,

risk perception, these all affect

0:35:010:35:03

children's experience of nature,

but they all, in my

0:35:030:35:05

opinion, need it.

0:35:050:35:10

Shall we run, everyone?

0:35:100:35:11

Come on, let's go.

0:35:110:35:13

When I first read the Pokemon paper,

as I've come to think about it,

0:35:130:35:17

my response was twofold.

0:35:170:35:17

An anxiety of what was being lost

and a wish, a powerful wish,

0:35:170:35:21

to do something hopeful in response.

0:35:210:35:25

And out of that came

The Lost Words: A Spell Book,

0:35:250:35:29

which the artist Jackie Morris

and I worked on for two years.

0:35:290:35:33

At its heart was a very simple idea.

0:35:330:35:37

We'd take 20 names for 20 common

creatures and plants in the British

0:35:370:35:41

landscape and then, by a kind

0:35:410:35:43

of magical thinking,

by the power of spells that might be

0:35:430:35:46

spoken and images that were painted,

we would try and summon back those

0:35:460:35:49

creatures and those trees and plants

into the mouths

0:35:490:35:51

and mind's eyes of children.

0:35:510:35:57

There it is.

0:35:570:36:00

I was thinking in a way,

it was and still is a very simple

0:36:000:36:04

thing we were trying to do,

to take 20 names

0:36:040:36:06

for 20 very common...

0:36:060:36:11

20 quite simple words.

0:36:110:36:12

Full words, wren, bluebell.

0:36:120:36:13

Raven.

0:36:130:36:14

Otter, acorn.

0:36:140:36:15

Your eyes, when you're

in a bluebell wood, it's almost

0:36:150:36:18

like the light comes up

from the ground and it

0:36:180:36:20

fills up your eyes.

0:36:200:36:25

I know it's called The Lost Words,

but it was only when I sat

0:36:250:36:28

in a classroom in front of 32

children and they didn't know what

0:36:280:36:38

A wren was, or Kingfisher. But they

would have heard wrens. Now, the

0:36:400:36:45

next little brown bird goes past,

they will be curious.

When wren

0:36:450:36:51

words from stone to firms, the world

around her slows. Wren song is sharp

0:36:510:37:01

song, and a wren's flight is quick

flight, light flight, yes. Each wren

0:37:010:37:09

edges, switches, glitches. Yes, now

you think you see wren, now you know

0:37:090:37:14

you don't. It's not just children

who are forgetting these things. A

0:37:140:37:17

wildlife trust survey from earlier

this year found that a third of

0:37:170:37:21

British adults couldn't identify a

bar now. Three quarters didn't know

0:37:210:37:25

an ashtray. And two thirds felt that

they had lost touch with nature.

0:37:250:37:29

Yes, the basic literacy of the

living world is slipping from us up

0:37:290:37:33

and down the ages. We were in the

exhibition and then we came out and

0:37:330:37:43

an amazing thing happened. We

released children into the wild, and

0:37:430:37:46

it took them about one and a half

seconds to start picking things up,

0:37:460:37:52

telling stories, giving names.

Finding leaves, comparing colours.

0:37:520:37:58

And a worm became a desert crossing,

this incredible creature machine.

0:37:580:38:04

And when you said, how does it move?

It appoints itself into its body.

It

0:38:040:38:11

was amazing, and that is exactly it.

We saw this unbelievable ability

0:38:110:38:15

that children have, in seconds, they

are natural is the nature. Put them

0:38:150:38:21

in a wood, a tree or a field and

they tell stories, they find, they

0:38:210:38:26

seek, they hide, they gather. Guys,

we have a raven here. Has anyone

0:38:260:38:31

ever seen one? They eat eggs and

they each sheep's eyes as well.

How

0:38:310:38:36

do they get them?

It's not a very

nice story. They peck the eyes out

0:38:360:38:42

of sheep that are ill or sheep that

are caught in snowdrifts. They eat

0:38:420:38:46

other birds' eggs. They are absolute

pirates. Why does it matter, though?

0:38:460:38:51

Why do names matter? Why does being

able to tell the difference between

0:38:510:38:55

a stunning red blackbird or between

a cherry tree and a hawthorn tree

0:38:550:39:00

matter? It matters because we are

losing nature as well as the names

0:39:000:39:02

for nature in this country. We have

more than 50% of species in decline.

0:39:020:39:08

Many of them are common. We have

stopped darlings and skylarks and

0:39:080:39:12

newts and hedgehogs going. Names,

good names, well used, help us see

0:39:120:39:19

and they help us care. We find it

hard to love what we cannot give a

0:39:190:39:23

name to. And what we do not love, we

will not save.

0:39:230:39:34

That was Robert Macfarlane. Let's

take you through tomorrow's papers.

0:39:340:39:40

They are all leading on the Brexit

talks. The new Deal shambles, says

0:39:400:39:47

the Daily Mail. And the same picture

on the front of the Guardian, DUP

0:39:470:39:59

Rex May's Brexit deal, no words

minced.

0:39:590:40:02

That's almost it for tonight.

0:40:020:40:03

But before we go, have

you ever wondered how some

0:40:030:40:05

people have all the luck?

0:40:050:40:07

The best job, the most beautiful

life partner, the coolest house.

0:40:070:40:09

And you just wonder how it happened?

0:40:090:40:11

Well, one British video artist did.

0:40:110:40:12

This is Swedemason's own mash-up,

with thanks to Talking Heads.

0:40:120:40:16

Evan's here tomorrow.

0:40:160:40:16

Good night.

0:40:160:40:20

MUSIC: Once In A Lifetime

by Talking Heads

0:40:200:40:22

# ..Into the blue again

after the money's gone

0:40:220:40:24

# Once in a lifetime,

water flowing underground

0:40:240:40:26

# You may ask yourself

0:40:260:40:28

# What is that beautiful house?

0:40:280:40:30

# And you may ask yourself

0:40:300:40:32

# Where does that highway go to?

0:40:320:40:34

# And you may ask yourself

0:40:340:40:36

# Am I right?

Am I wrong?

0:40:360:40:38

# And you may say

to yourself

0:40:380:40:40

# "My God!

What have I done?"

0:40:400:40:42

# Letting the days go by,

let the water hold me down

0:40:420:40:46

# Letting the days go by,

water flowing underground

0:40:460:40:50

# Into the blue again...

0:40:500:40:53

# Into the blue again...

0:40:530:40:53