05/12/2017 Newsnight


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05/12/2017

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis.


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Ireland is unhappy.

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The DUP is unhappy.

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And now some of the Brexiteers

in her own party are very unhappy.

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This is a game being played out over

power and the answer at the end

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boils down to who will call

the shots on this, and right now

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we have to say, not good enough.

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You need to change this process

and to back off, otherwise we get

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on with other arrangements.

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Can Theresa May escape the tangle

of competing demands

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on her Brexit vision?

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The clock is ticking.

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We hear from the European Parliament

and from a prominent Brexiteer.

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Should Britain or the EU make

the next concession?

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A doctor made a series of mistakes.

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A six-year-old child died.

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Should the doctor be

allowed to practise again?

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We hear from the mother

of Jack Adcock, who died

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at the Leicester Royal Infirmary,

and a doctor who wants the NHS

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to learn lessons rather than punish

those who make errors.

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Putin likes showing the world

his sporting prowess.

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But his country's team are barred

from the 2018 Winter Olympics.

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Does he benefit from playing

the victim of the West?

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We ask the president

of the anti-doping authorities

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and an expert on Russian democracy.

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Hello.

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A Brexit deal to get us

to the next phase of talks

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didn't happen yesterday,

and today there's been more drama.

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Theresa May is now trapped

between Brexiteer MPs' desire

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to stop making concessions,

the Taoiseach's veto over the next

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round of talks, and the DUP's hold

over her government.

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Is it like the end

of Reservoir Dogs?

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Feels like it.

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But at the heart

of it is a trilemma.

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The UK Government is looking

for three things from which the EU

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says we can only have two.

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Britain wants no land border between

Northern Ireland and the Republic.

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It wants no sea border

between Northern Ireland

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and the rest of the UK.

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But it wants no EU control at home -

independence from EU rules -

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which implies a border

between Britain and the EU.

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The Irish say they'll not accept

a breach of number one.

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The DUP will not tolerate

a breach of number two.

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So does that mean we have no choice

but to breach number three?

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Well, that's not what Iain

Duncan Smith and his

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fellow Brexiteers want.

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Brexit Secretary David Davis kind

of admitted that three

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is the one to look at,

but in the Commons today he thought

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we could still take back control

even if we align many of our rules

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to the EU's.

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The presumption of the discussion

was that everything we talked

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about applied to the whole

United Kingdom.

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Alignment isn't harmonisation.

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It isn't having exactly

the same rules.

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It is sometimes having

mutually recognised rules,

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mutually recognised inspection -

that is what we are aiming at.

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Well, can we really have a UK-wide

arrangement that allows us to be

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different from the EU,

but similar enough for Northern

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Ireland not to have a border?

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There are two thoughts about this.

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We need a fudge in a form

of words that simply gets us

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to the next stage of talks,

and then we work out

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a solution properly later.

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Or that we have to face

the difficult choice now,

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as it won't go away by a carefully

drafted piece of

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constructive ambiguity.

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Nick Watt is with me.

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What did you make of David Davis 's

session?

Those specific remarks were

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meant to reassure the DUP that this

idea, this new buzz phrase, of

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regulatory alignment would apply

across the UK. Yes, there would be a

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Northern Ireland element, which is

essentially embedding those elements

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are cross-border co-operation in the

Good Friday agreement, but the UK

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wide element is how you deliver that

regulatory alignment and what it is

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about is the UK deciding what to do

as a rule-maker, deciding which bits

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of regulation to accept, not meekly

accepting them from the EU as a rule

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taker. Now, this was not good enough

for some Tory Brexiteer is. I'm told

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after that statement one leading

figure eyeballed David Davis across

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the lunch table and said, this will

not do, you cannot sign up to this.

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So I've been looking at how this row

with the DUP is now spreading into

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the Tory Party.

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The season of goodwill should soon

be upon us. For the moment, it all

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feels a bit scratchy as the

Government's Brexit negotiations are

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thrown into the air. In an ideal

world, Theresa May would have hailed

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an EU deal with a European ally

today. A pre-Christmas meeting with

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her Spanish counterpart still went

ahead. The Prime Minister now faces

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a new headache after Tory-Leave

supporters rejected the EU proposed

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deal in its current form.

The Prime

Minister has bent over backwards in

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every way and we have been rebuffed

by the EU. They need to go away and

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think again. Today we want a trade

arrangement? In which case it's a

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bit absurd to block everything up

before you discuss trade.

Iain

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Duncan Smith took his cue from the

DUP.

We want to see a sensible

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Brexit and we will work through the

basis of the clear red lines we have

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set down, which are, as we

understand it, the red lines of the

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Government as well, so a sensible

Brexit in which the UK leaves as one

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nation with a sensible relationship

with the rest of the EU.

Tory

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Brexiteers are delighted with the

DUP. One told me, their intervention

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has saved us having to rebel against

the Government in Parliament. Those

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Tories want to use the pause is to

try and change the pace of the

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negotiations. The aim is to stop the

Prime Minister offering what they

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fear are irrevocable commitments to

the EU that could not be withdrawn

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even if the UK is unhappy with the

final deal. If that can't be done,

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they say simply the UK should walk

away. Labour is alarmed by the new

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alliance between the DUP and the

Tory Brexiteers.

It is grossly

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irresponsible to be advocating

walking away from these

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negotiations. And sure the Prime

Minister isn't going to do that. The

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surest way to ensure a hard border

in Northern Ireland is to walk away

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from these negotiations, it is to

walk away from our responsibilities.

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The current impasse over the Irish

border prompted the leaders of

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Britain's devolved bodies to warn

that the UK is facing a delicate

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moment. The First Minister of Wales

believes the UK Government would be

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wise to consult more widely.

We

would prefer to be more closely

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involved in the Brexit negotiations.

I think we could be constructive in

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terms of what we have to offer. We

can, I think, provide a helping hand

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to the UK Government. It's not as

preventing Brexit, that's not going

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to happen, but there are sensible,

pragmatic people in the government

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who want it to be a Brexit that

works for Britain and not some

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hard-line, nationalist Brexit that

some in the Tory Party seem to want.

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Amid a swirl of uncertainty, Theresa

May is hoping to restore some calm,

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but the Prime Minister knows she

faces a formidable challenge to

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settle this issue.

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And Nick is still here.

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Do you think she can get this show

back on the road, particularly with

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the clock ticking?

I sense a less

than optimistic view of meeting that

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by this Friday deadline. There had

been thought that the Prime Minister

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would go to Brussels after PMQs

tomorrow. I think she will not even

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be there by Thursday because the DUP

are really digging in. Are saying

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there have to be substantial

amendments to this proposed deal

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with the EU. -- they are saying. The

wording stage, there needs to be

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lots more wording, and then they are

saying, we are not accepting this

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deadline, even the deadline of

sorting this out by the EU council

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next week. They have said, the EU,

they can hold an emergency summit,

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they've done it before, so why can't

they do it again? But there is a

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potential chink of light for the

Government. The DUP's Red Line is

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that there must be complete, let's

use our favourite word, alignment

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between Northern Ireland and the

rest of the UK, and if that can be

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achieved, then possibly Theresa May

could be able to win the DUP, if not

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many of her Tory Brexiteers.

Thank

you.

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While Theresa May works her way

through all of this,

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she does so, of course,

against the ticking clock

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of the EU's deadline of the end

of this week to reach an agreement

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if Britain is to unlock

the next round of talks.

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So what's the mood in Brussels?

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I spoke earlier to the Dutch

MEP Sophie in't Veld,

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deputy of the EU Parliament's chief

negotiator Guy Verhofstadt.

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I asked whether after David Davis

said in the Commons today

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that the plan was always

for Northern Ireland

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to have the same regulatory

arrangements as the rest of the UK,

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if that was her understanding

of yesterday's deal?

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Well, I think that's fantastic

because that in essence means Brexit

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isn't going to happen, because if

there is regulatory alignment

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Ferrari large part, then the UK

would still follow the same EU

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rules. It doesn't make much sense to

me but if that is what he proposes,

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that sounds very good.

If we went

down the David Davis route, would we

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have to have free movement as well?

We're talking about very shady

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proposals here. We don't know what

we are actually talking about.

It

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sounds like you don't know...

But

nobody knows.

OK!

At some point, we

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would also like to know exactly what

it is that the UK Government wants.

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Only once we have a clear idea that

can renegotiate.

Can I ask whether

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you think there was any solution,

any solution, to the Northern

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Ireland border issue that doesn't

involve a border between Britain and

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Northern Ireland, and allows Theresa

May to keep her red line? She is

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spelt out some red lines. Can she

keep those, not have a border down

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the Irish tee and not have a border

with the Republic of Ireland? Does

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that work in any way at all? -- down

the Irish Sea.

There won't be a

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border. The question is how it will

work in practice. One solution is

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going to be apparently one that the

government has in mind, which is,

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OK, we won't set up a physical

border post but we will just put up

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some cameras and sensors. No,

clearly that won't work because

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people will not accept it. There

will have to be a soft border. I

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think that's clear. Otherwise you

jeopardise the Good Friday agreement

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and that would be disastrous.

You

are jeopardising the Good Friday

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agreement by potentially ruling out

a deal with the UK that is

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acceptable to the UK. It takes two

sides are there to be no deal,

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doesn't it? If there is no deal, you

would want to put a border there to

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protect the integrity of your single

market.

This is a very strange way

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of looking at it, and I am also a

little bit irritated. The EU is an

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entity that's been around for around

60 years and for over 40 years the

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UK has been a member. The UK has

been building the EU as much as any

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other country and in fact it has

been in the forefront building the

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single market. Now, the UK has

chosen to leave the EU for the time

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-- and for the time being it looks

as though they want to leave the

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internal market. The UK knows better

than anybody else what the rules of

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the single market are. You've

created them together with the rest

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of Europe.

I wonder whether you

think that the rest of the EU will

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go all the way to the wire on this

issue backing up Ireland. Ireland

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says we have a veto but we don't

need to use it because everybody is

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supporting them. Is everybody

supporting Ireland on this?

Yes. The

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way I understood it - I mean, I

wasn't in the room - but the way I

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understood it is that Theresa May

said, OK, can we debate on this

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notion of regulatory alignment for

Northern Ireland and see if that is

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a basis for negotiations? That was a

very positive step. But then

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apparently she got a phone call from

the DUP telling her, no, you are

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not. So then she also has to choose.

Who is in charge?

Do you have some

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sympathy for her predicament,

though, given she is between the

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Republic of Ireland that has a veto

over the next stage, the DUP that is

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holding her government in office,

and indeed the aspirations of those

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who voted for Brexit last year in

the referendum?

Of course! I'm very

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happy I'm not in her shoes. I

recognise it's very difficult and

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contrary to what some of the British

media are reporting, there is really

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nobody, I've met nobody, in the

European Parliament that is somehow

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out to Pina lies the UK. Quite the

opposite. -- out to punish the UK.

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People in the Netherlands want to

keep close ties to the UK but with a

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limit to what you can do in saying,

OK, you can leave the EU, you will

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have access to the single market but

you don't have to abide by the rules

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everybody else has too. But is

simply not an option and I think you

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and everybody will understand that.

Thank you for talking to us. I

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appreciate it.

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Yesterday's deal, acceptable

to the Irish, implied that come

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what may, when Brexit happens,

Northern Ireland will not diverge

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from the EU in ways that might

require the construction

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of a border.

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As we've just heard from that

interview, it seems even now some

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in the EU are not clear on exactly

what the British plans are.

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We'll discuss this in moment

with a Brexit-supporting Tory MP,

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but first our business editor,

Helen Thomas, has been trying

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to make sense of the options.

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Here is the problem in a nutshell or

a milk bottle. Everyone wants to

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avoid a hard border between Northern

Ireland and the Republic, so milk

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can flow freely between North and

South much as it does now. Hence the

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proposal this week. If the UK

doesn't get the broad free trade

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deal that it once it would still

commit to regulatory alignment,

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particularly in key areas like

agriculture between Northern Ireland

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and the South. What alignment means

was left probably intentionally

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vague. Is it really any different

from Noel diverges harmonisation or

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equivalence? But the main message

was clear, animals and animal

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products would not need to be

checked at special border inspection

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posts. Here is the first problem.

The implication was that Northern

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Ireland could follow some single

market regulations, even if the rest

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of the UK chose not to. Entered the

DUP. To them even that theoretical

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diverges between Northern Ireland

and the rest of the UK is totally

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unacceptable. It might mean no

border between Northern Ireland and

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the Republic, but instead you would

need checks between Northern Ireland

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and Great Britain. Why? Well there

is our old friend the chlorine

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washed chicken. Say the UK did its

much discussed deal with the US and

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accepted deploring chicken, banned

by the EU. To keep that pesky

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poultry out would require a border

check either between Great Britain

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and Northern Ireland or Northern

Ireland and the Republic. But that

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is unacceptable either to the DUP or

the Irish. So could the UK align

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itself entirely with EU rules in

certain key areas? No borders, but

0:16:450:16:50

then we couldn't agreed to buy US

chicken. That could scupper our

0:16:500:16:55

great plans for other trade deals.

There is another problem. Regulatory

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alignment is not necessarily enough

to avoid any physical borders. For

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that you might need a customs union

or agreeing the same set of external

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tariffs for goods arriving from

non-EU countries. Without it, well

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you are still going to need some

customs checks somewhere. Of course,

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the government expects to get it

broader deal but even to start talks

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means a border -based phage. The

possibility of Northern Ireland

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having different rules from the rest

of the UK or the idea of the whole

0:17:350:17:40

UK aligning itself with the EU

longer term on regulations and

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customs. I hope you have got the

hang of the conundrum.

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Kwasi Kwarteng is a

Brexit-backing Conservative MP

0:17:500:17:52

and the Parliamentary private

secretary to the Chancellor,

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Philip Hammond.

0:17:540:17:57

Good evening. First, get you to

comment on what Iain Duncan Smith

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said? He seems as if to say scrap

that if the EU do not move. We will

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not try and have a deal.

The main

thing to remember is that Iain

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Duncan Smith, myself, Theresa May,

Ruth Davidson, we are all unionists

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and the idea that Northern Ireland

was going to be treated differently

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from the rest of the UK is something

that needs to be put to bed. That

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stock were to happen. We are

committed to having a UK solution to

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the problem you have outlined. What

I would say broadly is that there

0:18:330:18:37

are two aspects to this, there is

the British Government's negotiation

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with the EU which I know your piece

did not reflect on but is going

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well. The Chancellor said it was

likely there was going to be a deal,

0:18:450:18:51

Donald Tusk...

Rather than talk

about my successes...

You did not

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mention the successes. It is very

important that viewers realise that

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the talks are going quite well.

You

got it down to the intractable end

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product and these are the ones that

are not being sold because they are

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difficult. Can I ask which you would

prefer? If the EU gave us a choice

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would you rather there was a border

between Britain and Northern Ireland

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which you have just ruled out would

you rather that Britain stayed in

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the single market or close to it?

I

reject the premise. Both of those?

0:19:250:19:29

What I am saying is that we have two

issues, and negotiation with EU

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which is going very well.

I except

it has gone well on 90% of things.

0:19:340:19:41

Then we have the issue of the border

in Northern Ireland. We were very

0:19:410:19:46

close to a deal, the regulatory

alignment formula, as David Davis

0:19:460:19:51

said today in the House of Commons,

does not mean that we have exactly

0:19:510:19:56

the same rules. It is not the same

to use this phrase as harmonisation.

0:19:560:20:00

That is something that we have got

to get our heads around and at the

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same time we have not really

entered, as your clip said, we have

0:20:030:20:08

not really entered the main nub.

You're happy with what David Davis

0:20:080:20:13

said today, that there is a degree

of alignment and to some extent, not

0:20:130:20:18

as much as been in the single

market, but the whole of the UK, to

0:20:180:20:22

some extent aligns itself...

If you

look around the world, New Zealand

0:20:220:20:27

and Australia, they have a degree of

regulatory alignment. These

0:20:270:20:32

countries, forgive me, these

countries are sovereign nations.

0:20:320:20:38

They are not the same country. We

have got the alignment, that is

0:20:380:20:42

where we are and you would accept

that. I did not get the feeling that

0:20:420:20:46

Iain Duncan Smith would accept it

but you would, is that the Brexit

0:20:460:20:50

that people thought they were voting

for?

The Brexit that people were

0:20:500:20:55

voting for broadly, which is as a

Brexiteer, is to have control of

0:20:550:21:01

borders, freedom of movement and I

think we will deliver on that. There

0:21:010:21:06

is also the issue of the European

Court of Justice being superior as

0:21:060:21:10

it were to British law and I think

we are going to claim sovereignty on

0:21:100:21:14

that and the third item was

obviously the money. It is clear to

0:21:140:21:18

me on the money side, we are not

going to continue playing -- pain

0:21:180:21:23

and net contribution of 10 billion

every single year until kingdom come

0:21:230:21:27

to the EU, that is ending and that

was the nature of... All three of

0:21:270:21:32

those issues I think we will deliver

on.

It was not said in the campaign

0:21:320:21:37

that there would be a degree of

alignment, this problem seems to

0:21:370:21:42

have come as a surprise to the

Brexit side of the argument.

If you

0:21:420:21:48

spoke to a Brexiteer on the

campaign, people were very keen that

0:21:480:21:52

we had a free trade deal. There

would be a free trade deal between

0:21:520:21:56

the UK and EU. The nature of free

trade deals, you are an economist,

0:21:560:22:01

you understand, that there is some

degree regulatory alignment in free

0:22:010:22:06

trade.

It is on that basis. When

Iain Duncan Smith says no deal, we

0:22:060:22:12

could walk away, what do you think

of the no Deal option? There are

0:22:120:22:16

differing views about how bad that

would be.

I think that is very

0:22:160:22:20

unlikely. I say that because I speak

to the Chancellor, people in

0:22:200:22:25

government and the broad

Conservative Party.

Is it bad, would

0:22:250:22:33

be a tragedy for the UK economy?

I'm

here as a Brexiteer, I campaigned on

0:22:330:22:40

your show, I took part in debates, I

have not been frightened of the idea

0:22:400:22:45

of no deal. I always said that

Britain had a great future and a

0:22:450:22:49

great ability to trade its way into

gaining prosperity is with no deal

0:22:490:22:53

but that is not something that I

think is on the cards and I think it

0:22:530:22:56

is much more likely that we will get

a deal.

OK, thank you.

0:22:560:23:01

Back in 2011 a young

boy, Jack Adcock, died

0:23:010:23:03

in hospital in Leicester.

0:23:030:23:05

It was obviously a tragic case,

but also one with implications

0:23:050:23:07

for medical staff today.

0:23:070:23:09

A doctor and a nurse were convicted

of manslaughter over Jack's death

0:23:090:23:11

and the doctor is now at the centre

of an argument about

0:23:110:23:14

whether she should be allowed

to continue practising.

0:23:140:23:18

A letter to The Times today

from hundreds of medics and others

0:23:180:23:21

says she should be allowed

to keep working.

0:23:210:23:23

Here is a brief history of the case.

0:23:230:23:29

It was February 2011

when six-year-old Jack Adcock,

0:23:290:23:31

a child with Down's syndrome,

died of a cardiac arrest

0:23:310:23:34

at Leicester Royal Infirmary.

0:23:340:23:38

He had developed sepsis

but it was not diagnosed.

0:23:380:23:45

And although not a cause of death,

Dr Hadiza Bawa-Garba stopped other

0:23:450:23:50

staff performing CPR on Jack,

mistakenly thinking that he was

0:23:500:23:54

subject to a do not resuscitate

order.

0:23:540:23:57

For that and other failings,

she and a nurse, Isabel Amaro,

0:23:570:24:00

were eventually convicted

of manslaughter by gross negligence

0:24:000:24:02

at Nottingham Crown Court.

0:24:020:24:03

They got suspended jail

sentences and both were

0:24:030:24:05

suspended from their posts.

0:24:050:24:09

But Dr Bawa-Garba was given

a second chance to practise

0:24:090:24:11

as a paediatrician.

0:24:110:24:13

The Medical Practitioners Tribunal

Service found that there had

0:24:130:24:15

been system problems

as well as individual ones,

0:24:150:24:18

and thought she should be kept

on the medical register

0:24:180:24:23

as she would not be

a danger to patients.

0:24:230:24:26

The General Medical Council

disagrees with that and the issue

0:24:260:24:29

is now about to be decided

by the High Court.

0:24:290:24:31

Should she be allowed

to practise as a doctor or not?

0:24:310:24:38

For the many who wrote to The Times,

the case criminalises medical error

0:24:380:24:41

and makes it far harder

to learn from mistakes.

0:24:410:24:46

With me are Jack's mother,

Nicola Adcock, and Dr Jenny Vaughan,

0:24:460:24:49

consultant neurologist

from the campaign group

0:24:490:24:50

Manslaughter and Healthcare.

0:24:500:24:56

Good evening to you both. I will

start with you, Nicola, what was

0:24:560:25:01

your reaction when you heard about

this letter from hundreds of medics.

0:25:010:25:07

I was mortified, I was devastated.

That all these doctors had got

0:25:070:25:12

together and obviously supported the

fact that she had been charged with

0:25:120:25:15

gross negligence in a criminal court

by a jury, it was a long... We were

0:25:150:25:21

in court for four and a half weeks

and I don't understand how a doctor

0:25:210:25:26

could be charged with gross

negligence and manslaughter and

0:25:260:25:30

still be able to work. Where does it

give the public any faith, any of

0:25:300:25:36

the community any faith? I would

like as most people watching, if

0:25:360:25:40

they took their child to the

hospital, and a doctor, who has been

0:25:400:25:45

charged with gross negligence and

manslaughter over the death of a

0:25:450:25:48

child, a six and a half year old

little boy, would they be happy that

0:25:480:25:55

that Doctor is cheating -- treating

that child? She should be struck off

0:25:550:25:57

Micro. She got away with a two-year

suspended sentence and now she has

0:25:570:26:02

not even been struck off.

And

justice for Jack is a slogan because

0:26:020:26:07

you're trying to collect signatures.

All of these people who got

0:26:070:26:12

together, they are doctors but they

are parents as well.

Does it make a

0:26:120:26:18

difference that a lot of people have

said, there was a lot going wrong at

0:26:180:26:22

the hospital?

I want a clear that

up. I need to make sure that people

0:26:220:26:27

understand this was not a system

blunder, not a system error, this

0:26:270:26:33

doctor was a trainee. I need to

clarify that she was a level six

0:26:330:26:37

registrar, she had lots of training,

where she may stop was basic things,

0:26:370:26:47

as in cold hand, cold feet, he had a

heart condition, not flinching when

0:26:470:26:49

they put the Dublin. I wrote down 20

things.

We do not have nearly enough

0:26:490:26:57

time. Would it make a difference if

doctors could persuade you that we

0:26:570:27:03

would save more lives... Rubbish. By

learning from mistakes.

If I was too

0:27:030:27:11

quiet in my car and I was to run

someone over, I would get charged

0:27:110:27:16

with manslaughter. I would go to

prison and I would lose my license.

0:27:160:27:20

This was not a system blunder, this

was more than 20 mistakes. I

0:27:200:27:25

understand we are human beings and

we make mistakes, one or two but not

0:27:250:27:29

more than 20, it is not acceptable.

She even mixed him up with another

0:27:290:27:34

child at the end of the night. When

asked how you mixed up a child with

0:27:340:27:38

Down's syndrome with another child,,

she said she got their parents mixed

0:27:380:27:44

up.

Thank you. Jenny, obviously this

is a tragic case. What is the

0:27:440:27:52

reason? You have heard the

arguments, what is the case for

0:27:520:27:56

saying you would employ this person

as a doctor after a blunder like

0:27:560:28:00

this?

I have worked with many

bereaved families and I really

0:28:000:28:05

respect Nicola coming here, she has

lost her child and I'm not in that

0:28:050:28:10

position. Dr Bawa-Garba... The

reason that it was felt... Their

0:28:100:28:19

tribunal found that there were

systems failure is. There were over

0:28:190:28:24

70 systems failure is identified by

the hospital. They were all enclosed

0:28:240:28:29

in a serious incident report and the

jury did not hear about all of those

0:28:290:28:33

we talk about system failures we

mean things going wrong on the day,

0:28:330:28:39

hospital results, although normal

ranges did not come through, there

0:28:390:28:41

was a lack of a senior alert system,

there were failures at every level,

0:28:410:28:46

failure is on trainee supervision,

lots of different failures.

I think

0:28:460:28:53

we see the geography of the argument

about how you apportion blame. I am

0:28:530:28:58

interested in the bigger picture,

what is your worry about what

0:28:580:29:02

happens to medical professionals if

doctors are struck off for this kind

0:29:020:29:07

of thing?

It is sad. We are all on

the same side. Doctors are on the

0:29:070:29:12

same side as patience, what we want

is a safe culture and the only way

0:29:120:29:17

you really get a safe culture is no

blame culture where people can be

0:29:170:29:23

frank about their errors they made

and they can discuss them and not

0:29:230:29:25

feel challenged and they come out in

the open and say I did this wrong,

0:29:250:29:29

that is the only way you actually

improve patient safety.

You would

0:29:290:29:33

agree that there are some errors

that are too gross, that you would

0:29:330:29:38

say, you are not fit for this job?

Doctors get struck off for fraud. In

0:29:380:29:46

this case, the tribunal heard all

the evidence...

They did find that

0:29:460:29:50

there were protests errors on the

day and they said it was the fact

0:29:500:29:55

that she had redeemed herself...

She

has had honest failure and basically

0:29:550:30:02

honest failure should not be

rewarded with punishment or

0:30:020:30:06

retribution. She has been suspended,

she has had trial by media and a lot

0:30:060:30:10

of things have happened.

Would you

let her look after your child?

I

0:30:100:30:18

absolutely would. Through all of

this we are on the same side as

0:30:180:30:25

patients. I would say, before all of

this and after Jack died, she showed

0:30:250:30:30

that she went on courses, she did

show that she had insight into her

0:30:300:30:36

errors and she expressed that. I

would have no trouble in having her

0:30:360:30:41

look after my child now because she

has shown insight into those errors

0:30:410:30:44

and that is that the whole

profession. All of us need an open

0:30:440:30:48

culture will become and express

errors otherwise patient safety will

0:30:480:30:52

not improve in the future.

0:30:520:30:55

We should say that of course

Dr Bawa-Garba hasn't herself been

0:31:050:31:08

able to respond to any of what has

said about her today.

0:31:080:31:11

We did make contact with her earlier

through her solicitor

0:31:110:31:13

and she gave us a statement.

0:31:130:31:15

She said, "No words will ever bring

Jack back but I would

0:31:150:31:17

like to apologise once again

to his family for my clinical

0:31:170:31:20

failings in his care.

0:31:200:31:21

I think about this tragic case every

day with regret and remorse,

0:31:210:31:24

and if I could turn back time

I would do things differently.

0:31:240:31:27

My thoughts are with Jack's family."

0:31:270:31:28

I know that you've never had...

She's never shown remorse. She's

0:31:280:31:31

never said sorry. As far as I'm

concerned, she's got a heart of

0:31:310:31:33

stone.

And it would make a

difference to you...?

Not now. When

0:31:330:31:36

we were in court there were nurses

on the stand. Everybody that took

0:31:360:31:40

that stand was so sorry and so

remorseful. I mean, the nurse...

0:31:400:31:46

Others have said she did have

remorse.

That's because they are

0:31:460:31:50

doctors clubbing together again,

aren't they?

Last comment.

I don't

0:31:500:31:57

have any issue with any doctors and

nurses out there. There are amazing

0:31:570:32:00

doctors and nurses out there. This

is just my thing about the one

0:32:000:32:05

doctor that neglected my son that

day. I don't want another family to

0:32:050:32:09

go through this and I wouldn't wish

it on my worst enemy.

We don't

0:32:090:32:14

either, which is why we want

everybody to have an open culture.

0:32:140:32:18

We don't want this either.

Thank you

both very much.

0:32:180:32:23

Time for Viewsnight now.

0:32:230:32:25

This time last week we brought

you one arguing that Donald Trump

0:32:250:32:28

had changed America for the better.

0:32:280:32:29

The President has had

a busy week since then,

0:32:290:32:31

packing in a diplomatic tweet row

with Theresa May, getting his tax

0:32:310:32:34

reform bill through Congress,

and yesterday getting backing

0:32:340:32:36

from the Supreme Court

for his controversial travel ban.

0:32:360:32:38

In the interests of balance,

here's Brian Klass from the LSE,

0:32:380:32:43

arguing that America's democracy may

not survive this Presidency.

0:32:430:32:47

We are fighting the fake news.

0:33:030:33:05

It's fake, phoney, fake.

0:33:050:33:10

Because you'd be in jail.

0:33:100:33:11

Secretary Clinton...

0:33:110:33:14

You may not find the conclusions

very surprising, but according to

0:35:100:35:13

the International Olympic Committee,

Russia has been involved

0:35:130:35:15

in systematic doping in sport.

0:35:150:35:16

The IOC's disciplinary

head Samuel Schmid said

0:35:160:35:18

there is scientific evidence,

there are witness statements,

0:35:180:35:20

documents and correspondence,

as well as the detailed testimony

0:35:200:35:23

of a whistle-blower to prove it.

0:35:230:35:26

As a result, the IOC have excluded

Russia from the next Winter

0:35:260:35:29

Olympics in February,

though a few athletes will be able

0:35:290:35:31

to compete under a neutral flag.

0:35:310:35:34

Now, that is more draconian

than anything in the Summer

0:35:340:35:36

Olympics, when individual sports

made their own decisions

0:35:360:35:38

on Russian participation.

0:35:380:35:42

I'm joined by Sir Craig Reedie -

he's the president of

0:35:420:35:45

the World Anti-Doping Agency,

and in Berlin is the LSE visiting

0:35:450:35:48

fellow Oksana Antonenko,

whose research focuses on Russia.

0:35:480:35:58

If I can start with you on the

sports side, Sir Craig Reedie, it

0:35:580:36:05

was remarkable what they were doing.

Just give a sense of what we now

0:36:050:36:08

know they were doing.

It's been

tonight's news from the commission

0:36:080:36:16

and it corroborates what we've known

for the last three or four years,

0:36:160:36:18

that Russia had a systematic system

of breaking the rules. Every

0:36:180:36:25

positive test that came into the

laboratory wasn't recorded in our

0:36:250:36:29

recording system so we didn't have

any positive tests. And then there

0:36:290:36:33

was the cheating in Sochi.

They have

this thing with the hole in the war

0:36:330:36:39

and the samples were passed through?

-- hole in the wall.

It's remarkable

0:36:390:36:46

they went to that trouble, but in

addition, if they had dirty samples,

0:36:460:36:51

they knew they had to have clean

samples to replace them, so there

0:36:510:36:54

was a bank of clean samples to send

in.

Why has this taken so long to

0:36:540:37:02

happen? Because many people have

said it was obvious the Russians

0:37:020:37:05

have been sophisticated in this

department.

If you look at the Sochi

0:37:050:37:15

situation, we had a laboratory

expert who worked conscientiously

0:37:150:37:21

between eight in the morning and

eight at nine, he didn't work

0:37:210:37:25

between midnight and 4am, when the

cheating went on, and I'm afraid

0:37:250:37:29

most of the information that has

come to us has come from

0:37:290:37:33

whistle-blowers. -- eight in the

morning and eight at night.

One

0:37:330:37:45

minister who has been banned from

the future Games has been part of

0:37:450:37:55

the World Cup, Fifa.

But there is

corporation that this went to the

0:37:550:38:02

top of the ministry.

What you think

the reaction of ordinary Russians

0:38:020:38:04

will be to this?

I think most of the

Russians and opinion polls agree

0:38:040:38:11

that those who violate the doping

should be punished and those who

0:38:110:38:16

enable it should be punished as

well. But today will be seen as a

0:38:160:38:21

collective punishment, not the

punishment of those who violated the

0:38:210:38:25

rules but the punishment of the

entire Russian nation. And I think

0:38:250:38:29

as always in Russia, of course we

know Russians are very proud people

0:38:290:38:32

and proud of their sporting

achievements, so that will produce a

0:38:320:38:37

running around the flag effect and

come the president -- presidential

0:38:370:38:43

elections it will strengthen support

for President Putin and the very

0:38:430:38:46

system which enabled doping, and

perhaps will create a less conducive

0:38:460:38:52

environment to investigate properly

what is -- what went on in Sochi and

0:38:520:38:55

other Olympic competitions.

So you

think it benefits President Putin

0:38:550:39:00

but they do accept there's a sort of

justice that says you a

0:39:000:39:03

discriminating punishment, and those

who cheat get booted out and those

0:39:030:39:09

who don't don't.

Absolutely. At

least among the opinion polls that

0:39:090:39:17

you mention, the perception in

society is that those who violate

0:39:170:39:19

the rules should be punished, but it

is also very important that it is

0:39:190:39:24

seen as fair in terms of a process,

in which the law of rule is followed

0:39:240:39:30

-- the rule of law is followed,

because otherwise it is being

0:39:300:39:35

exploited, particularly through the

state media and other sources of

0:39:350:39:41

information, that this is

discrimination against Russia.

Is a

0:39:410:39:45

blanket ban the right thing to do?

Curling, for example, is their drug

0:39:450:39:51

cheating in that? So banning that

team is an indiscriminate band.

0:39:510:39:59

There are two groups here. There are

the so-called clean athletes in

0:39:590:40:02

Russia who could come to the games

provided they go through the

0:40:020:40:08

necessary criteria so that they are

as clean as we can make them. But

0:40:080:40:14

there's another group who, since

2011 and 2015, have lost medals,

0:40:140:40:20

championships because of a systemic

doping system, so the world actually

0:40:200:40:25

believes there has to be some

sanction on Russia for organising

0:40:250:40:29

that and the cheating on the clean

athletes over the years. We will

0:40:290:40:33

work hard to make sure proper

controls are in place so that

0:40:330:40:37

Russian athletes can take place in

the Games in John Chiang.

Nobody

0:40:370:40:50

wants to create a situation that

means more support for President

0:40:500:40:59

Putin, but what do you do about

systematic cheating in sport, the

0:40:590:41:04

biggest that has ever occurred?

I

think it is important to distinguish

0:41:040:41:09

between those who violated the rules

and those who followed the

0:41:090:41:13

procedure...

But the state violated

the rules. It was the system, the

0:41:130:41:20

government. It wasn't just the odd

team or team member.

Absolutely. I

0:41:200:41:26

think that has to be investigated

very thoroughly and transparently

0:41:260:41:30

but also you have to acknowledge a

lot of Russian athletes who didn't

0:41:300:41:34

violate the rules and to our clean

athletes, and who are now under a

0:41:340:41:38

lot of pressure it -- politically

not to participate because they will

0:41:380:41:42

not be participating under the

Russian flag and they will face a

0:41:420:41:46

lot of pressure internally at home

not to do that.

Thank you both very

0:41:460:41:49

much.

0:41:490:41:54

That's all for this evening.

0:41:540:41:55

But before we go, do you ever find

yourself cursing the air pollution

0:41:550:41:58

that blights our towns and cities?

0:41:580:42:00

Well, nothing's new.

0:42:000:42:01

65 years ago today the great smog

of London descended.

0:42:010:42:04

And despite there being many times

more cars these days,

0:42:040:42:07

it's probably fair to say

things have improved.

0:42:070:42:09

Good night.

0:42:090:42:10

HORNS BLARE.

0:42:100:42:11

Evening paper!

0:42:110:42:15

'...operate this evening.

0:42:150:42:20

'And the following trains will be

affected...'

0:42:200:42:21

Are we doing all we can

0:42:210:42:24

to minimise the dislocation

caused by fog?

0:42:240:42:26

Most of our efforts are remedial.

0:42:260:42:31

In London, we still suffer damage

that can be estimated

0:42:310:42:34

in millions of pounds.

0:42:340:42:36

The fault is largely our own.

0:42:360:42:39

The fog is made worse by man.

0:42:390:42:41

It is up to man to stop it.

0:42:410:42:47