06/12/2017 Newsnight


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS


06/12/2017

The Israeli ambassador discusses President Trump's decision to recognise Jerusalem as the capital. Plus Nick Watt has the latest on Brexit and Stephen Smith remembers rave.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 06/12/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

They all told him not to.

0:00:070:00:11

The United Nations,

the EU - even the Pope.

0:00:110:00:13

In Gaza they reacted with anger.

0:00:130:00:15

But Trump insists it's

the right thing to do.

0:00:150:00:23

I have determined that it is time

to officially recognise Jerusalem

0:00:230:00:25

as the capital of Israel.

0:00:250:00:28

An ancient city at the heart

of a centuries old conflict

0:00:280:00:31

is thrust back into the spotlight

as the Palestinians

0:00:310:00:33

says it's deplorable.

0:00:330:00:36

And the Turkish President warns

Trump his decision could plunge

0:00:360:00:39

the region back into

a 'fire with no end'.

0:00:390:00:41

We speak to the Israeli

ambassador to the UK,

0:00:410:00:44

and key voices from the region.

0:00:440:00:51

Also tonight...

0:00:510:00:56

This spoof fundraiser shows

Africa donating radiators

0:00:570:01:01

to help Norway stay warm...

0:01:010:01:05

As UK celebrities run to the aid

of Christmas charity causes -

0:01:050:01:08

are we guilty of Poverty Porn?

0:01:080:01:10

We'll ask whether these campaigns do

more harm than good.

0:01:100:01:17

And remember the rave days

of the 1980s and 90s?

0:01:170:01:22

Then you probably weren't there.

0:01:220:01:23

Steve Smith was - constantly -

and tonight he tries to remember

0:01:230:01:26

Shoom with some of the big

names from the scene.

0:01:260:01:30

You're watching Newsnight,

and a little later this evening,

0:01:300:01:32

we're going to be talking

about the history of dance music

0:01:320:01:34

in the UK and around the world.

0:01:340:01:36

It might just go

a little bit Pete Tong.

0:01:360:01:46

Good evening.

0:01:460:01:48

What the Middle East needs

now, said no one ever,

0:01:480:01:50

is something to make the regions

politics more complicated.

0:01:500:01:52

America's President seems

to have missed the memo.

0:01:520:01:58

This evening, Donald Trump confirmed

a campaign pledge: the recognition

0:01:580:02:00

of Jerusalem as the capital

of Israel - a symbolic statement

0:02:000:02:03

fraught with practical implications.

0:02:030:02:06

In a tightly scripted address

he said he would build the US

0:02:060:02:09

embassy in that city,

insisting he was acting

0:02:090:02:11

in the pursuit of peace

between Israel and the Palestinians

0:02:110:02:14

and that the US supported

a two state solution

0:02:140:02:16

if agreed by both sides.

0:02:160:02:18

He was warmly thanked

by Israel's Prime Minister.

0:02:180:02:21

Fury from many on the other side.

0:02:210:02:26

Tonight, we ask what

the ramifications of this

0:02:260:02:28

move are likely to be.

0:02:280:02:29

But we start with this report

by Gabriel Gatehouse.

0:02:290:02:32

Jerusalem is many things to many

people. A place that embodies the

0:02:380:02:42

shared heritage of the world's great

civilisations and a city whose

0:02:420:02:46

ancient walls have long been an

incubator for their festering

0:02:460:02:51

divisions. Today, Donald Trump

walked into this most treacherous of

0:02:510:02:55

minefields, and pledged to shake

things up...

When I came into office

0:02:550:02:59

I promised to look at the world's

challenges. With open eyes, and very

0:02:590:03:05

fresh thinking. We cannot solve our

problems by making the same failed

0:03:050:03:14

assumptions and repeating the same

failed strategies of the past. When

0:03:140:03:19

that his announcement was

anticipated with foreboding in the

0:03:190:03:21

Middle East but there were hints he

may be aiming at an audience closer

0:03:210:03:26

to home. Therefore I am determined

that it is time to officially

0:03:260:03:32

recognise Jerusalem as the capital

of Israel. While previous Presidents

0:03:320:03:40

have made this a major campaign

promise, they failed to deliver.

0:03:400:03:49

Today, I am delivering.

If Donald

Trump's motivation was born in part

0:03:490:03:53

out of the desire to deliver are on

the pledges of 2016, then the

0:03:530:03:59

ramifications on this reach further

back in history. In 1948 when the

0:03:590:04:04

Jewish state was born, Israel

proclaimed Jerusalem its capital but

0:04:040:04:07

on the ground, the city was divided

into Western and Eastern sectors.

0:04:070:04:12

Israel in control of the West, and

Jordan the east, including the old

0:04:120:04:19

city. In 1967, in six days, the same

time it took the gold of the old

0:04:190:04:26

Testament to create the world,

Israel reach you the Middle East. --

0:04:260:04:34

again true. Israel seized the

eastern part of the city and

0:04:340:04:36

expanded the city limits. The

Palestinians want to see occupied

0:04:360:04:43

territory become the future of an

independent state. Today's

0:04:430:04:48

announcement has, in fact, been a

long time coming. In 1995 Congress

0:04:480:04:53

passed an act requiring the US

government to move it embassy from

0:04:530:04:58

Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. Since then,

every six months every president has

0:04:580:05:03

deferred that move on the grounds of

national security but today,

0:05:030:05:07

President Obama's successor promised

to put an end to that.

This is

0:05:070:05:11

nothing more or less than a

recognition of reality. It is also

0:05:110:05:16

the right thing to do. It is

something that has to be done.

With

0:05:160:05:23

that, at a stroke, and many

diplomats fear that America's

0:05:230:05:26

crucial role as a peace broker has

been fatally undermined.

Much of the

0:05:260:05:33

statement will leave a sense of

vacancy and many in Europe and

0:05:330:05:37

across the Arab world will wonder

where the process goes next, and

0:05:370:05:41

whether America, particularly under

President Trump, is committed to a

0:05:410:05:45

genuine and fair to state solution.

Donald Trump said that America was.

0:05:450:05:50

The United States would support a

two state solution. If agreed to by

0:05:500:05:56

both sides.

I think there was

evidence that some of those

0:05:560:06:01

diplomats, who have been trying to

reduce the negative impact of this

0:06:010:06:05

announcement, did get to work on

that text.

There was some

0:06:050:06:09

reassurance for the Palestinians who

want to return to pre-1967 borders.

0:06:090:06:15

We are not taking a position of any

final status issues. Including the

0:06:150:06:21

specific boundaries of the Israeli

sovereignty in Jerusalem or the

0:06:210:06:29

resolution of contested borders.

But

it does not really negate what is

0:06:290:06:34

still a very dangerous announcement

at a delicate time for the Middle

0:06:340:06:37

East. The sad thing is, many of

those extremists across the region

0:06:370:06:41

will be the ones celebrating this in

the morning.

Donald Trump has sent

0:06:410:06:46

his young son-in-law, Jared Kushner,

to the middle east in search of what

0:06:460:06:49

he calls the ultimate deal.

We want

an agreement that is a great deal

0:06:490:06:57

for the Israelis and a great deal

for the Palestinians.

I would be the

0:06:570:07:02

first one to celebrate if there is a

superbly crafted strategy behind

0:07:020:07:06

this announcement. But I won't be

holding my breath. We hear a lot

0:07:060:07:10

about Donald Trump being a great

deal maker and certainly in his book

0:07:100:07:14

he says you've got to hold back many

of the strongest cards you got. It

0:07:140:07:17

looks like he's played one of those

cards a little too early.

0:07:170:07:23

That was Gabriel Gatehouse.

0:07:230:07:25

In a moment we will hear

from the Israeli ambassador

0:07:250:07:28

Mark Regev and the Palestinian

academic Ghada Karmi.

0:07:280:07:29

Although we're not expecting

to resolve the regions issues

0:07:290:07:32

here in the Newsnight studio -

so they'll not be

0:07:320:07:34

debating head to head.

0:07:340:07:35

But first - our diplomatic editor,

Mark Urban is here.

0:07:350:07:39

What surprised you most about Donald

Trump's announcement?

I think that

0:07:390:07:43

given there was that nod towards the

two state solution and the statement

0:07:430:07:47

from the president Duterte was not

intended, the move today, to

0:07:470:07:53

prejudice issues, it could go he

could have acknowledged the idea to

0:07:530:07:59

have the capital in East Jerusalem.

It could have been something he did.

0:07:590:08:03

It's been many years since the

diplomatic game was about an

0:08:030:08:08

international solution for

Jerusalem, a zone to be ruled by the

0:08:080:08:13

international community. For decades

it has been about the two state

0:08:130:08:16

solution and for everyone who has

worked on that problem, every

0:08:160:08:18

diplomat I have spoken to for 30

years on this knows that the

0:08:180:08:23

Palestinian state without its

capital in East Jerusalem is not a

0:08:230:08:26

viable solution to the conflict.

And

what you make of those

0:08:260:08:30

internationally showing support for

the move?

There have been one or

0:08:300:08:34

two, interestingly, and going back

to that point the Czech Republic,

0:08:340:08:38

for example, today said that they

would the American lead and move its

0:08:380:08:41

embassy to Jerusalem. They also

mentioned the Palestinian aspiration

0:08:410:08:48

for a capital in East Jerusalem. The

Philippines followed suit but by and

0:08:480:08:53

large the reaction is negative. The

UK said they will not move their

0:08:530:08:57

embassy, many other European

countries taking a similar tone will

0:08:570:09:00

see if others join in with the Czech

Republic and the Philippines in the

0:09:000:09:05

coming days.

Mark Urban, thank you.

Let's pick up with our guests, let

0:09:050:09:12

me start with Ghada Karmi, Donald

Trump is right when he says the old

0:09:120:09:16

way is broken and there's no point

in repeating the same formula and

0:09:160:09:19

you've got to reach out to new

solutions?

He isn't right can he

0:09:190:09:23

does not know anything about it.

What the Middle East does not need

0:09:230:09:26

right now is a president like Donald

Trump. The reality is the American

0:09:260:09:35

president has endorsed an illegal

situation. Israel is in illegal

0:09:350:09:43

occupation of Arab Jerusalem, and

its sovereignty over West Jerusalem

0:09:430:09:48

is not recognised by the

international community. That is a

0:09:480:09:51

legal fact. Now, Donald Trump has

chosen to violate international law

0:09:510:09:57

by endorsing something very illegal,

which is Israeli controlled

0:09:570:10:05

sovereignty over Jerusalem, calling

itself the capital, this kind of

0:10:050:10:09

thing. This is very bad.

When he

says he is deeply committed to

0:10:090:10:14

peace, when he says that this is

nothing more than a recognition of

0:10:140:10:19

reality, do you not have faith that

this is the first step of what could

0:10:190:10:25

be a solution?

No, of course not!

First of all, it does not

0:10:250:10:30

acknowledge that the Palestinians

have any rights. I noticed your

0:10:300:10:38

commentator Mark Urban talking about

aspiration. Palestinians have a

0:10:380:10:41

right to the city. I was born in

Giroud Slim and an part of the

0:10:410:10:46

indigenous people of Jerusalem. I am

a native of Jerusalem. -- I was born

0:10:460:10:52

in Jerusalem. The fact that the

United States president cannot bring

0:10:520:10:58

himself to mention Palestinian

rights in the city is appalling.

0:10:580:11:01

That's the first problem. The second

problem is we know that Donald Trump

0:11:010:11:07

is not a free agent. He is

surrounded by pro-Israel advisers,

0:11:070:11:14

pro Israel officials...

To be fair

the American stance towards Israel

0:11:140:11:17

has not differed particularly from

one president to another.

No,

0:11:170:11:21

because it has always been dictated

by Israeli interests.

So he cannot

0:11:210:11:27

broker peace, or America cannot

broker peace?

Of course not, he is

0:11:270:11:32

compromised. He is surrounded by pro

Israel began discuss -- propaganda,

0:11:320:11:40

and he cannot operate as a free

agent, even if he had the will to do

0:11:400:11:44

it.

I want to talk about the

practicalities now. He said he is

0:11:440:11:49

calling on both sides to respect the

status quo. How should Mahmoud

0:11:490:11:53

Abbasi respond and how should young

Palestinian men respond if they feel

0:11:530:11:56

upset by what they have heard

tonight? -- Mahmood Abbas. Should

0:11:560:12:02

they legitimately protest or work

towards the two state solution he

0:12:020:12:07

talked about?

There's no two state

solution to talk about, if they have

0:12:070:12:12

gone out of the equation, I don't

know how they should but I know how

0:12:120:12:19

they feel. They will protest, they

are angry and they have every right

0:12:190:12:23

to be angry. What is dangerous about

this, because it's bad enough that

0:12:230:12:28

it is illegal, it is bad enough that

Trump is influenced by all kinds of

0:12:280:12:35

people...

I'm talking about the

practicalities. Do the moderates

0:12:350:12:39

just give up?

Listen, it isn't about

moderates, please let me be clear.

0:12:390:12:45

This is about a whole people who

have rights in that city. Of course

0:12:450:12:50

they are angry. Of course they will

protest. Nobody should be surprised.

0:12:500:12:55

Why I think this is so dangerous, is

because one of the first things that

0:12:550:13:03

might happen, and watch for this, is

that Israel would be emboldened to

0:13:030:13:07

take over the Islamic holy places,

it has had its eye on the mosque in

0:13:070:13:14

the city for a long time. If they

take it over now with a lot of new

0:13:140:13:18

self-confidence, watch what happens.

Let me put some of those points

0:13:180:13:27

over to Mark Regev. Thank you. Piece

in this area. Is it a joke?

This was

0:13:270:13:38

a just move for peace. Because there

is an international norm. Everybody

0:13:380:13:45

respects it.

A norm? The EU doesn't,

the Pope doesn't...

Let me make my

0:13:450:13:54

point, there is a norm that it has

respected every country's right to

0:13:540:13:59

choose their capital. The sovereign

right of every country on the

0:13:590:14:02

planet. There are countries, as you

know, Emily, who have changed their

0:14:020:14:07

capital cities.

Turkey, China... You

know how provocative the move is.

0:14:070:14:14

Why are we denied the right to

choose our own capital city? A right

0:14:140:14:19

every country on this planet has.

So

you can call it what you want, the

0:14:190:14:22

Palestinians can call it what they

want. My question is, from what you

0:14:220:14:26

have seen so far Donald Trump, what

makes you think that he is a classy

0:14:260:14:31

peace broker? What makes you think

that he is committed to solving the

0:14:310:14:35

world's crisis, that he has a firm

grip on international relations? Do

0:14:350:14:39

you

0:14:390:14:49

want to tie your country's future to

him as a peace broker?

I would urge

0:14:520:14:55

you to look at this decision on the

substance. The substance is

0:14:550:14:57

positive.

He says he is committed to

a two state solution and a peace

0:14:570:15:00

process and he's done that by deeply

offending and inflaming relations in

0:15:000:15:02

that part of the world.

Let's stop

for a moment. The Palestinians and

0:15:020:15:05

the Arab world say that they

recognise Israel within the 1967

0:15:050:15:07

boundaries and so we all know that

Jerusalem has been the capital of

0:15:070:15:13

Israel since 1949. Why is there a

problem with recognising Jerusalem

0:15:130:15:17

as the capital of Israel?

It is

extraordinary that you put that

0:15:170:15:21

question to me. You know this area,

you know the complexities inside

0:15:210:15:26

out. You have a responsibility,

don't you, to tell him that he is

0:15:260:15:30

wrong? Don't you think it would be

more important to not look at the

0:15:300:15:34

short term gains and to get the

longer term peace process right?

We

0:15:340:15:38

all have a responsibility to get it

right and what is the fact? That the

0:15:380:15:44

Israeli government sit in Giroud

Jerusalem, and when foreign leaders

0:15:440:15:51

sit there, they come to Jerusalem.

When foreign diplomats meet with

0:15:510:15:55

their counterparts, they come to

Jerusalem.

You do not acknowledge

0:15:550:15:59

how much offence it has caused to

Palestinian residents. Now, you

0:15:590:16:04

heard what our guest just said, that

it would embolden Israelis to forget

0:16:040:16:13

the sanctity of the mosque and all

of that. This is where you think

0:16:130:16:18

Israel can claim whatever it wants.

0:16:180:16:23

My Prime Minister said just two

hours ago that we will maintain the

0:16:230:16:27

holy sites and continued to keep the

status quo and the religious rights

0:16:270:16:33

of all people. You need to do more

than that. It is about respecting

0:16:330:16:38

people who call that their home and

assert their claim to it. So what is

0:16:380:16:42

the olive branch now that the

Israeli government has to offer to

0:16:420:16:48

Palestinians to recognise that this

is something they do not consider

0:16:480:16:52

fair?

Let's be clear what's fair,

and legal. You cannot have peace

0:16:520:16:58

without Jerusalem being Israel's

capital, and those on the

0:16:580:17:03

Palestinian side you have these

dangerous fantasies that somehow we

0:17:030:17:06

are going to throw all of the dues

out of Jerusalem, that is a

0:17:060:17:11

nonstarter. President Trump has

drawn a line in the sand today to

0:17:110:17:16

say that it is time for the

Palestinians to recognise that the

0:17:160:17:21

Jewish people have rights to their

capital city, and it is good for

0:17:210:17:30

peace.

Congressmen Lee Zeldin is

Republican member of the Foreign

0:17:300:17:35

Affairs Committee in the US.

0:17:350:17:45

and Co-Chairman

of the House Republican

0:17:450:17:46

Israel Caucus.

0:17:460:17:47

Ilnur Cevik is chief advisor

to the Turkish President,

0:17:470:17:49

Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

0:17:490:17:52

The onus is now on the Palestinians,

according to Mark Trevor Grills, to

0:17:520:17:57

move on and accept the peace. --

Mark Regev. What do you say to that?

0:17:570:18:06

If you do not extend an olive branch

to the Palestinians, what can you

0:18:060:18:11

ask from them? What can you expect

from them? It's a very hard thing to

0:18:110:18:16

turn to these people and say,

Jerusalem is the capital, finished.

0:18:160:18:23

Now, if they had said, fine, West

Jerusalem, we have the capital of

0:18:230:18:34

Israel, the Palestinians have a

right for east Jerusalem to be their

0:18:340:18:39

capital.

So as a key player in the

region, what does Turkey do now? How

0:18:390:18:44

do you face this new reality?

Well,

Turkey is frustrated, deeply

0:18:440:18:54

frustrated, because Turkey feels

that while it wants to maintain

0:18:540:19:02

relations with Israel, for the sake

of the Palestinians, it is becoming

0:19:020:19:08

harder and harder for Turkey to

maintain a kind of plausible

0:19:080:19:12

relationship with Israel. The

Turkish president has already said,

0:19:120:19:19

we may even sever ties.

Do you think

that will happen now?

Turkey may

0:19:190:19:25

downgrade its relations. I don't

know. It depends how the situation

0:19:250:19:30

develops.

Would you be as bold with

your relations with the US now?

0:19:300:19:36

Well, Turkey has already announced

that it rejects the US decision. The

0:19:360:19:44

Turkish parliament, for the first

time, all the parties have come

0:19:440:19:47

together, the Kurds and the left

wing, everybody, for the first time

0:19:470:19:52

in nearly ten years, they have come

together to denounce the American

0:19:520:19:57

decision, and this shows it's not

only Recep Tayyip Erdogan, but its

0:19:570:20:03

across-the-board, all parties, who

are hugely against the Turkish

0:20:030:20:12

government, the opposition, have

come together to reject this

0:20:120:20:14

decision.

You heard the voice in our

film earlier saying that this is a

0:20:140:20:19

victory for extremists, who can ride

roughshod over moderate views now

0:20:190:20:26

and say, we have to respond to this

in the only way we see fit. What do

0:20:260:20:31

you have to do, as a key player in

the region, to make sure it doesn't

0:20:310:20:37

inflame? By severing relations, you

are ducking out, right?

The Turkish

0:20:370:20:44

president has said that this is one

of the options. He didn't say it was

0:20:440:20:51

going to happen.

You are his chief

adviser. What will you be advising

0:20:510:20:56

him tonight?

Our advice will be that

we need a kind of leveraged on

0:20:560:21:01

Israel. Some form of leveraged is

needed there. However, the

0:21:010:21:06

Palestinians have a right, and when

you do not answer to the demands of

0:21:060:21:15

moderate Palestinians who want

peace, who want just their rights,

0:21:150:21:21

who won Jerusalem, who have been

born in Jerusalem, to say, this is

0:21:210:21:27

my home. If they are denied those

rights, we are all playing into the

0:21:270:21:32

hands of those radicals.

Ilnur

Cevik, thank you for coming in.

0:21:320:21:36

Let's pick up now with Lee Zeldin,

member of the Republican Foreign

0:21:360:21:42

Affairs Committee. You have the Pope

against you, the UN, the EU, and

0:21:420:21:47

most countries. Do you have any

qualms about what your president has

0:21:470:21:51

done tonight?

I strongly support the

President's decision. It is a fact

0:21:510:21:58

that the capital of Israel is

Jerusalem. This is where the Israeli

0:21:580:22:05

Knesset is located. The offices and

homes of the Israeli Prime Minister

0:22:050:22:10

and president, the Supreme Court...

We need to all be honest with each

0:22:100:22:15

other. The fact is that the capital

of Israel is Jerusalem.

The draft

0:22:150:22:20

the core niceties seem to overlook

what a precarious position this has

0:22:200:22:27

put Israel and the Palestinians in

this evening.

Well, I would say what

0:22:270:22:33

really complicates things the most

is when you have Palestinian

0:22:330:22:39

terrorists murdering innocent

Israelis. Just yesterday, the house

0:22:390:22:44

of Representatives passed a Taylor

Force act. Taylor force was a

0:22:440:22:48

graduate of the United States

military Academy of West point who

0:22:480:22:53

was brutally murdered by Palestinian

terrorists.

And you think this will

0:22:530:23:00

help?

I think it is a huge issue

that needs to be addressed. On the

0:23:000:23:03

one side you have a party trying to

promote peace, and on the other, you

0:23:030:23:10

are treating terrorists as heads of

state and financially rewarding

0:23:100:23:14

terrorism.

You have a president who

tries to ban Muslims of certain

0:23:140:23:18

countries even coming into the US.

Do you think he has the right man to

0:23:180:23:23

broker peace in Israel, in the

Middle East?

Pieces going to be

0:23:230:23:29

negotiated on the ground, regardless

of who the president is at any time.

0:23:290:23:34

It's going to be important that

whoever is in charge of Israel, or

0:23:340:23:40

the Palestinian authority, that they

have the ability to negotiate peace.

0:23:400:23:45

That has been won over course of

generations, not just years and

0:23:450:23:51

decades, but it has been elusive. I

don't know if any single person

0:23:510:23:56

outside of Israel and that region

are capable of doing this for them.

0:23:560:24:01

It really needs to be done on the

ground.

So maybe he should have

0:24:010:24:04

stayed out of it? One of our guests

just called President Trump a know

0:24:040:24:10

nothing American.

Again, the capital

of Israel is Jerusalem. I'm not

0:24:100:24:19

questioning that the Palestinian

authority is headquartered in

0:24:190:24:22

Romana. I have been there and met

with the Prime Minister of the

0:24:220:24:27

Palestinian authority. I don't

question that that is where they are

0:24:270:24:31

headquartered at. There's a certain

realities here. The Prime Minister

0:24:310:24:37

said to my face that he would not

recognise Israel as a Jewish state.

0:24:370:24:42

You also have to considered the fact

that if the Palestinian authority

0:24:420:24:48

leadership was in good faith

negotiating a deal, let's say people

0:24:480:24:52

are sitting down in 2018, there is

an element in the Palestinian

0:24:520:24:58

authority, Hamas, who will not rest

until Israel is wiped off the map.

0:24:580:25:04

Thank you for joining us.

0:25:040:25:08

Theresa May found a new form a words

today which may soon be

0:25:080:25:11

adopted by school children

and the work-shy world over.

0:25:110:25:13

When asked about Monday's attempted

Brexit deal on Northern Ireland

0:25:130:25:15

she merely claimed 'very good

progress has been made'.

0:25:150:25:18

It sounded a bit hollow

in the House of Commons -

0:25:180:25:20

and was met with laughter.

0:25:200:25:21

Tonight, however, there were some

positive sounds coming

0:25:210:25:23

from the Irish Taoiseach,

Leo Varadkar.

0:25:230:25:29

I agreed to examine any text that

they put forward in a positive

0:25:290:25:34

light, understanding that it is

within the interests of our country

0:25:340:25:38

to move to phase two. Those things

are important to Ireland, and I want

0:25:380:25:43

to get back to the point where we

have good relations with the UK

0:25:430:25:46

again. I would look at any text with

an open mind and a positive outlook,

0:25:460:25:50

but I emphasise the fact that when

it comes to the substance and

0:25:500:25:54

meaning of what was agreed on

Monday, I can't depart from that.

0:25:540:26:01

Our political editor, Nick Watt, is

here. How will those words be

0:26:010:26:06

greeted in Downing Street?

He says,

I'm open to new wording, but it must

0:26:060:26:11

be in addition to the current

wording. Theresa May wants to avoid

0:26:110:26:16

what happened at the weekend when

the DUP were not shown the wording.

0:26:160:26:22

She is consulting on the text and

she is talking to Sinn Fein. But she

0:26:220:26:28

has a very difficult balancing act.

She has to win back the DUP, but not

0:26:280:26:34

in a way that Sinn Fein tumble out

of the equation. It is very

0:26:340:26:39

difficult. A DUP source said this

evening that the wording is toxic

0:26:390:26:43

and has to go. Another DUP source

said they did not like the wording

0:26:430:26:48

and could just about envisage a

situation where the existing wording

0:26:480:26:52

stays, but the new wording would

have to be dramatically in their

0:26:520:27:00

favour for that to happen. Plus,

Michel Barnier has said,

0:27:000:27:03

effectively, that there is 48 hours

to sort this out.

And intervention

0:27:030:27:08

on Philip Hammond as well.

He told

the Treasury Select Committee that

0:27:080:27:13

it would be inconceivable for the UK

not to pay its financial settlement

0:27:130:27:18

of the UK, even if we don't have a

deal. Downing Street came out a few

0:27:180:27:23

hours later and said, I think not.

They said the offer from the UK was

0:27:230:27:28

contingent on getting that future

trade relationship. A few hours

0:27:280:27:33

earlier, David Davis, the Brexit

Secretary, confirmed that the

0:27:330:27:37

government hadn't carried out a

formal impact assessment of the

0:27:370:27:44

consequences of Brexit, and that was

enough to ensure that the Brexit

0:27:440:27:48

Select Committee, voting on party

lines, voted, but it is in not in

0:27:480:27:53

contempt of Parliament.

0:27:530:27:57

Every since Band Aid -

the charity single put together

0:27:570:27:59

by a host of A-list musicians back

in 1984, we've got used

0:27:590:28:02

to the idea of celebrities rallying

around to solve world poverty.

0:28:020:28:04

This Christmas will

be no different -

0:28:040:28:06

Ed Sheeran, Tom Hardy,

and Eddie Redmayne are all starring

0:28:060:28:09

in adverts aimed at raising money

for humanitarian crises -

0:28:090:28:11

child malnutrition, famine,

the war in Yemen.

0:28:110:28:13

Their intentions

are beyond reproach.

0:28:130:28:14

They raise awareness

and often millions of pounds.

0:28:140:28:16

But there is a growing

unease at the signals

0:28:160:28:18

these videos send out -

labelled "Poverty Porn"

0:28:180:28:21

by their critics.

0:28:210:28:22

One group of activists got

so annoyed by the campaigns

0:28:220:28:25

they launched their own response -

and award for the worst.

0:28:250:28:30

It's Africa's turn to help, croon

the singers in this spoof video.

0:28:510:28:54

The group tell of a need

to highlight the plight of poor

0:28:540:28:57

Norwegians, by bringing them

radiators in winter,

0:28:570:29:00

raising awareness of their

suffering in the cold.

0:29:000:29:06

It's the work of a Norwegian

campaign group, who tomorrow

0:29:080:29:10

will launch an award for the worst

charity video of the year.

0:29:100:29:17

I'm a father, and I know that

many of our children in the UK

0:29:190:29:22

are looking forward to holidays

and presents right now.

0:29:220:29:25

These children live

in a far-off country...

0:29:250:29:27

They're so tiny.

0:29:270:29:28

They're so tiny.

0:29:280:29:30

You do see them in the day,

and they're kids...

0:29:300:29:33

On the list, three British

celebrities, Tom Hardy,

0:29:330:29:35

Ed Sheeran and Eddie Redmayne.

0:29:350:29:37

These images are devastating.

0:29:370:29:40

We had hoped to never

see this again...

0:29:400:29:43

Their campaign featured

the desperate plight of starving

0:29:430:29:45

and homeless children,

the kind of heartbreaking images

0:29:450:29:47

that have long proved

successful when it comes

0:29:470:29:49

to shocking people into giving.

0:29:490:29:53

A simple step from us

here can save lives there.

0:29:530:29:57

The DEC's Yemen appeal

raised £26 million.

0:29:570:30:01

The East Africa one raised

more than £16 million.

0:30:010:30:05

Valuable sums that have helped

enormously in the short term.

0:30:050:30:09

# Do they know it's

Christmas time at all?

0:30:090:30:15

It all began here,

of course, in 1984.

0:30:150:30:17

# Feed the world...#

0:30:170:30:19

The nearly all-white choir of

Band Aid raised

0:30:190:30:21

millions using a fine

roster of celebrities.

0:30:210:30:24

The campaign was astonishingly

successful as a fundraiser,

0:30:240:30:27

and as a concept, emulated

consistently over the years since.

0:30:270:30:32

Despite widespread agreement

amongst NGOs in 2007,

0:30:320:30:36

the re-emergence of poverty porn

is causing concern.

0:30:360:30:40

It cements a narrative

of us and them, of the

0:30:400:30:43

patrons and the victims.

0:30:430:30:47

When you say context,

it is that they have to offer

0:30:470:30:49

something more than some

stereotypes and simplifications.

0:30:490:30:51

They have to show the location.

0:30:510:30:54

They have to give a voice

to the local population,

0:30:540:30:56

and also to highlight

the structural, underlying

0:30:560:31:00

issues, for example,

what are the causes for poverty?

0:31:000:31:03

And not just the simplified solution

or a quick fix to something

0:31:030:31:06

that has deeper roots.

0:31:060:31:10

MUSIC: You're My Best

Friend by Queen.

0:31:100:31:16

They prefer this sort of thing -

the hope and optimism of Batman.

0:31:160:31:21

# Whatever this world

can give to me...

0:31:210:31:23

But are we becoming oversensitive?

0:31:230:31:26

Isn't it better to try

and occasionally get things wrong,

0:31:260:31:30

as long as the intentions are good

and the money rolls in?

0:31:300:31:35

With me now is Afua Hirsch -

a journalist who called for an end

0:31:370:31:41

to 'poverty porn' in a Guardian

piece this week -

0:31:410:31:43

and Mark Goldring, he's a trustee

of the emergency fundraising group,

0:31:430:31:46

the Disasters Emergency Committee.

0:31:460:31:47

He's also chief executive of Oxfam.

0:31:470:31:52

It's very nice to have you both

here. For all of your reservations,

0:31:520:31:57

this works, this raises money, and

it saves lives, why would you and

0:31:570:32:03

pick it, Afua?

It depends on what

you are trying to achieve, we all

0:32:030:32:07

agree that it's important to raise

awareness of humanitarian crises,

0:32:070:32:11

I'm not suggesting we should be

apathetic or stage some kind of

0:32:110:32:15

intervention but it's a short-term

solution. I know it works and shocks

0:32:150:32:18

people and gets people to give money

in the short term but in the

0:32:180:32:22

long-term the message it sends is

that these people not equal, they

0:32:220:32:32

are others, they do not deserve the

same dignity. We would never show a

0:32:320:32:35

British child in that state of

nakedness. We are not protecting

0:32:350:32:37

their basic dignity. We are creating

a belief with deep historical roots

0:32:370:32:39

that these people are not agents of

their own lives, we should pity them

0:32:390:32:43

and at best we can offer them

charity in their hopeless future.

0:32:430:32:46

That is not true.

I wonder if you

have a sense of this, that there is

0:32:460:32:54

a division that these kinds of

adverts create?

If these adverts are

0:32:540:32:58

the main ways that we portray the

developing world, it would not be

0:32:580:33:03

right but the picture is much more

complicated. What we are doing is

0:33:030:33:06

challenging the issues that lie

behind that poverty. So, we told

0:33:060:33:15

positive stories about Bangladesh,

and the situation in Myanmar, but

0:33:150:33:19

there are nearly 1 million people

crossing the border and we have to

0:33:190:33:22

get aid to them today. In the same

way, Oxfam has been challenging our

0:33:220:33:27

own government for years on our

policy in Yemen, challenging the

0:33:270:33:31

Saudis and arms sales. We are saying

that we also need practical help.

0:33:310:33:36

There is a lot in what Afua says

about how these images come across.

0:33:360:33:43

The problem is, as soon as you have

a spoof like the Norwegian one, and

0:33:430:33:48

people laugh, it almost releases you

from obligation. As soon as you are

0:33:480:33:52

in that position you go, I don't

want to be that person and endorse

0:33:520:33:58

that narrative.

We've seen this in

campaigns, since Band Aid, it works

0:33:580:34:07

as a one-off shock tactic but then

people become desensitised. Once you

0:34:070:34:11

see those images of babies with

flies in their eyes you lose

0:34:110:34:14

empathy. It's a very tired formula

and allows people to disengage

0:34:140:34:18

because ultimately they do not see

these people as humans...

Is that

0:34:180:34:22

right? You run many different kinds

of campaigns.

And we communicate on

0:34:220:34:28

complicated issues all the time. We

recently put out a film on taxation

0:34:280:34:34

and tax dodging. We put weeks into

crafting that film. The average

0:34:340:34:38

viewer watches it for about ten

seconds. What is happening with an

0:34:380:34:42

emergency appeal is that

broadcasters are putting something

0:34:420:34:45

together literally in hours and they

want to command attention.

So you

0:34:450:34:51

have ten seconds?

If the item it is

you don't have enough time to offer

0:34:510:34:55

someone basic dignity and respect...

I'm not saying that, I think there

0:34:550:34:59

is a difference between the images

and the overall effect. We are not

0:34:590:35:03

right to blame celebrities for that.

We need to look at the way we edit.

0:35:030:35:09

As an organisation, Oxfam, and many

like us, have strict guidelines on

0:35:090:35:13

using those kinds of images and

there are too many of them. There's

0:35:130:35:18

also a sense that there is an

emergency and we need to respond now

0:35:180:35:22

and that urgency needs to come

through.

We need context and to

0:35:220:35:28

protect the dignity of people we are

dealing with, they need the same

0:35:280:35:31

rights and treatments that we do.

To

both of you, thank you.

0:35:310:35:37

Who can say exactly how a cultural

phenomenon gets started,

0:35:370:35:39

but the Acid House phenomenon

in the late 1980s undoubtedly owed

0:35:390:35:42

a good deal to a group of DJs

who were inspired by what they saw

0:35:420:35:46

on the party island of Ibiza.

0:35:460:35:47

One of them was Danny Rampling,

whose legendary club

0:35:470:35:49

night in South London -

Shoom - celebrates its 30th

0:35:490:35:52

anniversary this week.

0:35:520:35:53

It helped to give rise to dance

culture and all that it

0:35:530:35:55

entailed: the super club,

tabloid controversy over ecstasy,

0:35:550:35:57

and the ubiquity of the 'smiley

face' emoji, that our parents always

0:35:570:36:00

believed was just a,

well, smily face.

0:36:000:36:02

We sent Stephen Smith to find out:

whatever happened to Acid House?

0:36:020:36:09

# Just a moment

0:36:090:36:10

# Please remain in your seats

0:36:100:36:12

# Please remain in your seats...

0:36:120:36:17

Many people said it

was like their church.

0:36:170:36:19

It was their new religion.

0:36:190:36:29

I could immediately see that this

was going to be huge.

0:36:310:36:34

I was already imagining that,

in a year or two, this

0:36:340:36:36

was going to be big over the world.

0:36:360:36:38

# Well, I need your love

0:36:380:36:40

# I need your love...

0:36:400:36:41

30 years ago, might you have been

making shapes amid the dry ice

0:36:410:36:44

and smoke of a gym in a south

London basement?

0:36:440:36:47

That's where DJ Danny Rampling

put a very British spin

0:36:470:36:50

on the easy-going, inclusive vibe

he'd found in the clubs of Ibiza.

0:36:500:36:53

After you, Danny.

0:36:530:36:54

Today, Newsnight's taking Rampling

back to his old haunt.

0:36:540:36:56

It's been a few years!

0:36:560:36:57

It's now available to rent,

if you're interested.

0:36:570:36:59

Is this very familiar?

0:36:590:37:05

No!

0:37:050:37:06

Not at all?

0:37:060:37:07

The entrance was around the back.

0:37:070:37:09

He hasn't been back here since

the club changed premises in 1989.

0:37:090:37:15

I could immediately see that this

was going to be huge.

0:37:150:37:28

So here we are.

0:37:340:37:35

Yes, here we are.

0:37:350:37:36

It didn't look like this back then.

0:37:360:37:38

How did it look?

0:37:380:37:39

Er...

0:37:390:37:40

It certainly didn't feel

as big as this as well,

0:37:400:37:42

because there were some changing

rooms in here, an office,

0:37:420:37:45

and then a gym area at the back.

0:37:450:37:47

This area here was

the main dance area.

0:37:470:37:48

Here?

0:37:480:37:49

Yeah, all this area here.

0:37:490:37:51

It it looks a little bit

trampled down, doesn't it?

0:37:510:37:53

Where did you have your DJ console?

0:37:530:37:55

It was on this side of the room,

so I'd be here with a torch

0:37:550:37:58

in my mouth, because it was quite

dark down here at times,

0:37:580:38:01

so I could see the vinyl.

0:38:010:38:03

Waving records around and jumping

around and shouting!

0:38:030:38:05

# Hey!

0:38:050:38:06

Britain had gone through

the Falklands War.

0:38:060:38:07

It had gone through the rising

interest rates, and it had gone

0:38:070:38:10

through such high unemployment

as well at the same time.

0:38:100:38:12

So opportunities, particularly in

working-class culture, were limited.

0:38:120:38:14

They were pretty limited.

0:38:140:38:16

And this came along as a reaction

to that period as well.

0:38:160:38:25

Remind us who passed through here?

0:38:260:38:28

Gosh, there's so many.

0:38:280:38:29

Boy George was a regular here.

0:38:290:38:30

Martin Fry and Mark White of ABC.

0:38:300:38:32

Dexy's Midnight Runners,

Kevin Rowland, Genesis P-Orridge,

0:38:320:38:33

Leigh Bowery came down at one time.

0:38:330:38:35

There was one time, he walked

in down these stairs with his famous

0:38:350:38:38

look with the light bulbs on,

and the security guy, Eric,

0:38:380:38:41

said "Light bulb chops is here."

0:38:410:38:50

My brother said, "It's £5.

0:38:500:38:51

There is no guest list in here."

0:38:510:38:53

He said, "Darling, I don't pay

to get in anywhere!"

0:38:530:39:03

You might never know it to look

at it, but to many this is one

0:39:030:39:06

of the most story doors

in music history.

0:39:060:39:08

Within a few weeks of Shoom

opening 30 years ago,

0:39:080:39:11

people were queueing right down this

street in the wee small hours

0:39:110:39:13

to join in the scene and the fun.

0:39:130:39:23

# Acid, man

0:39:230:39:24

# Acid, man...

0:39:240:39:26

Of course, the smiley face was a 60s

symbol that they put

0:39:260:39:29

on the third Shoom flyer, I think

it was, and caught the moment.

0:39:290:39:32

They had happy, happy, happy banners

up in the Shoom, in the corridor.

0:39:320:39:36

And it was very much

like a family vibe that they had,

0:39:360:39:39

and that's part of the reason

that it caught the

0:39:390:39:41

imagination of people.

0:39:410:39:45

Time Out magazine's former nightlife

editor has been in more clubs

0:39:450:39:48

than you can shake a glow stick at.

0:39:480:39:50

He captured the impact

of Shoom from the get-go.

0:39:500:39:55

Obviously, there was already a great

one nighter club scene in London,

0:39:550:39:58

Manchester and elsewhere,

but this shifted the balance.

0:39:580:40:01

It was a quantum leap

into the mainstream.

0:40:010:40:07

# Everybody's free...

0:40:070:40:13

The 90s brought a boom and easy

credit, and the alumni at clubs

0:40:130:40:16

like Shoom began developing

a multi million pound leisure

0:40:160:40:18

industry around super clubs

and high-profile DJs.

0:40:180:40:25

Dance music has infiltrated the pop

tracks for a good few years now.

0:40:250:40:28

You know, your DJs are not these

nameless, faceless guys

0:40:280:40:32

in the corner of clubs.

0:40:320:40:36

They are people who have Vegas

residencies, whose heads take up

0:40:360:40:39

eight floors of a hotel building

in terms of ad space.

0:40:390:40:42

The DJs are huge, and the culture

around it is huge.

0:40:420:40:45

Vegas wouldn't put these people

on if they didn't make them millions

0:40:450:40:48

upon millions of dollars.

0:40:480:40:53

But what's this?

0:40:530:40:55

Woodwind and strings

on club anthems?

0:40:550:40:58

It's the work of ageless

turntablist Pete Tong

0:40:580:41:00

and the Heritage Orchestra.

0:41:000:41:02

It's very popular, but is this dance

coming of age, or just ageing?

0:41:020:41:06

The kind of rave generation

of the 90s clubbing phenomena that

0:41:060:41:11

happened, that generation,

this is the first time that

0:41:110:41:13

they've got old, old-er.

0:41:130:41:23

But that doesn't necessarily mean

that they want to slow down in terms

0:41:260:41:29

of their musical passion.

0:41:290:41:30

So I think it's definitely pulled

a big chunk of those

0:41:300:41:33

people back out again.

0:41:330:41:34

I think the other thing is that

it finishes early, which is good!

0:41:340:41:42

Back in south London,

Danny Rampling's getting ready

0:41:420:41:44

to mark 30 years of Shoom,

but not in the former

0:41:440:41:47

gym where it all began.

0:41:470:41:52

Presumably, the people who would use

this space will not necessarily

0:41:520:41:54

know about Shoom?

0:41:540:41:55

Not unless there's

a blue plaque outside!

0:41:550:41:57

Who knows?

0:41:570:41:58

That may happen at some point.

0:41:580:41:59

Yeah, I walk past here,

and yeah, I suppose I do get

0:41:590:42:02

nostalgic when I pass here.

0:42:020:42:04

Well, I think we should perhaps

leave before we fill up.

0:42:040:42:08

What do you say, Danny?

0:42:080:42:10

# Come into my life

0:42:100:42:11

# I got so much love to show you

0:42:110:42:14

I love coming back here.

0:42:140:42:16

# Boy, I adore you

0:42:160:42:18

# Come into my life

0:42:180:42:20

# I got so much love

to show you

0:42:200:42:23

# Come into my life

0:42:230:42:24

# Boy, I adore you...#

0:42:240:42:32

And with that, they left. And we

must too. That's all we've got time

0:42:320:42:37

for.

0:42:370:42:39

Evan is with you tomorrow.

0:42:390:42:40

Goodnight.

0:42:400:42:42

Goodnight.

0:42:420:42:47

The Israeli ambassador to the UK discusses President Trump's decision to recognise Jerusalem as the capital. Plus Nick Watt has the latest on Brexit and Stephen Smith remembers the rave scene.