07/12/2017 Newsnight


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07/12/2017

With Evan Davis. A new Brexit border deal draft is proposed, how to deal with returning jihadis, Cornwall's Brexit dilemma, plus is adult anorexia provision failing?


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LineFromTo

It seems the pieces may be

falling into place tonight.

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Could a deal soon be done and then

Britain move to phase two

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of the Brexit talks?

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The big names in Brussels

are getting ready

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for something to emerge

at first light tomorrow.

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Is the PM really poised to crack

the Irish border conundrum?

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Meet Gavin Williamson,

the new Defence Secretary.

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He says we should kill British

jihadis who are overseas.

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Was he grandstanding or advocating

that we break the law?

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We'll hear what exactly the law is,

and how best to deal

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with former IS fighters.

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Also tonight...

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Just a good fun girl to have in the

party and as parents, we are

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incredibly proud of her. -- to have

in the family, and as parents, we

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are incredibly proud of her.

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Anorexia took

his daughter's life.

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Are adult sufferers of this

serious mental illness

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being failed by the system?

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Hello.

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We'll start tonight

with the latest on Brexit,

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and although there is no deal

to report - no crossing

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of a threshold into phase

two of the talks yet -

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there has been a sudden flurry

of optimistic comments,

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and the organising of a possible

dash to Brussels by

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the Prime Minister, maybe

early, early tomorrow.

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That would be a choreographed

announcement.

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To be honest, the problem of sorting

out the Irish border

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issue had looked huge -

and with the deadline of Sunday,

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it seems remarkable that we may get

a deal in the morning,

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with time to spare.

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But then again, we may not!

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Well, Nick Watt, our political

editor is here with me.

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Nick, I don't think we'd expected

this, had we? Suddenly Reuters

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started talking about...

Well, a

month ago, I was told by people that

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this Friday was the unofficial

deadline because after this Friday

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it is very difficult to make

substantive changes to European

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Council draft conclusions. Progress

has been made today. I am told it

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has been a decent day in comparison

to yesterday which was described as

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a holding pattern. So the Prime

Minister has talking to the

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Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, and

discussions have taken place through

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the normal channels and I am told it

is not impossible that the Prime

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Minister could make an early morning

visit to Brussels tomorrow morning

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to stand alongside the president of

the European Council, Donald Tusk,

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because of course he is in the

decision-making and it is up to the

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European Council to decide if we

move onto the next stage. The

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message is that we are making

progress but we're not quite there.

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Talks are continuing through the

night and for the Prime Minister,

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the most crucial talk she's got to

have tonight is with Arlene Foster,

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DUP leader.

What is conspicuous,

this has all come out, I haven't

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heard anything about how they have

resolved this. Any indication of

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what they have done?

I think what we

are looking at is Leo Varadkar was

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very clear that the wording that was

there on Monday has to but you can

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have additional wording and what

that has got to do for the DUP is

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make absolutely clear that Northern

Ireland is fully and completely

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integrated with the rest of the

United Kingdom. Now, their strategy

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this week, because we have MPs

talking about how it is a toxic

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document, they want to make a Prime

Minister sweat. I have been speaking

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to DUP sources. They say we're not

there yet, talking about how they

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are moving slowly, surely, carefully

but crucially confidently and

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interestingly talk of Donald Tusk

speaking tomorrow morning has put a

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shot in the arm because they say

they like positive momentum.

I dare

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say it will be on our programme

tomorrow evening but stay there

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because you are helping with the

next item well.

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Gavin Williamson is not the best

known cabinet minster -

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he only moved into his job

as Defence Secretary five weeks ago.

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Here he is - a Remainer,

the most striking thing

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about his appointment was just how

unpopular it appeared to be

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among many of his colleagues,

who felt he was promoted too

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far too young.

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So he has a lot to prove.

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And it's thus, perhaps,

no surprise he's been

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trying to prove himself.

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This week, he vowed

to save two heroic army dogs

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from being put down.

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And today, he was in the Daily Mail,

pledging to be tough

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on British Jihadists returning

from fighting with

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so-called Islamic State.

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He implied that Britain would search

out and kill the fighters.

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Populist stuff.

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But what did he mean?

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Often there's less to these

kinds of pronouncements

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than meets the eye.

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Did he mean that we should break

the law and shoot to kill?

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Or was he was just trying to sound

tough while making no

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change in policy at all?

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Certainly, there was a hint of

backtracking in later TV interviews;

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with a stress on continuity.

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Whether it's with Daesh, al-Qaeda,

operating in foreign fields, we need

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to deal with that,

we are dealing with that.

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We have been over the last few years

continually tackling

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the terrorist threat.

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We'll continue to do

that going forward.

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So has Mr Williamson said

something significant,

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and is there more we should be doing

to stop or even kill

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British fighters abroad?

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We did ask him onto the programme

but he was not available.

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But with the politics of this,

Nick Watt, our political

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editor is still with me.

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What did you make of that Daily Mail

interview?

Well, I spoke to one

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senior MoD source who said there was

shot in the MoD when they saw these

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comments this morning. One said to

me that this sounded like shoot to

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kill which is taking yourself

outside of the law. They said to me

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that when you are an international

rules -based country you don't get

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down to the same level as the

terrorists. There was real anger and

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concern at what was being said and

some criticism of Karen Williamson

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-- of Gavin Williamson, a new

Defence Secretary, clearly has

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leadership ambitions, and he is

clearly burnishing them.

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Interestingly in Downing Street they

don't seem too concerned. I think

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Gavin Williamson was talking about

targeting terrorists in the theatre

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of war where the UK is involved in

air strikes and they are saying when

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it is the theatre of war the rules

are less stringent than when David

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Cameron had to give very stringent

rules to air strikes, particularly

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in 2015.

Let's dwell on that the

Lytton -- dwell on that a little.

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Newsnight understands

that back in the 2000s,

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when UKL forces were active

in Helmand Province in Afghanistan,

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and it would have been helpful

to make drone strikes in Pakistan

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at the time, but the advice was that

that was not lawful.

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So let's get a legal take now

from the human rights

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lawyer, Fahad Ansari.

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Good evening. What is the difference

between a dream strike aiming to

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kill somebody that is legal and one

that is illegal? -- a drone strike?

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We live in a democracy with a rule

of law and we do not have the death

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penalty in this country. Everybody,

no matter what the allegation

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against them, is entitled to a fair

trial. Now that context, for any

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action to take place, whether it is

by Ed drone, an air strike, what

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ever it is, it is unlawful because

you was a merrily executing someone.

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Yes, but we know not every drone

strike out in Syria is unlawful.

It

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all depends on whether the UK is

involved in armed conflict in Syria.

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Let's assume that de facto we are.

We are allowed to drone strike

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people in Syria because it is a

theatre of war?

Not exactly. The

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threat has to be imminent. Even if

you are engaged in war, if Syria and

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the UK are at war, who are you at

war with? On whose authority are you

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flying your aeroplanes into Syria?

I

don't want to get into the legality

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of the Syria action at the moment.

You mentioned Syria.

Because that is

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where our strikes have been. If you

are in the theatre of war, you can

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drone strike in the theatre of war?

When you drop this drone, how can

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you guarantee it won't kill someone

else in the vicinity? I'll give you

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an example, a British citizen was

killed in an American drone strike a

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few months ago. Sally Jones. Do you

know who was killed with her? Her

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12-year-old son.

What was his crime?

But you are not going to argue that

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all drone strikes are illegal?

Unfortunately, the way the Defence

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Secretary has pitched this, he

didn't specify the theatre of war,

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he didn't specify who he was

targeting. He just said a dead

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terrorist couldn't argue. He does he

define as a terrorist? Assumedly he

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is talking about IS at the moment.

The reality is that the British and

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has already executed two of its

citizens within Syria.

We will hear

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more about that now. Fahad, thank

you.

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So, how big is the problem

with so-called IS fighters trying

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to return to the UK -

and how are they being dealt with?

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Here's Mike Thomson.

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The first British to Hadi in Syria

to be hunted down -- British jihadi

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in Syria to be hunted down, in this

case by an RAF drone was Reyaad

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Khan. The next to die was June eight

Hussein. The next to die was the man

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known as jihadi John, hit by another

drone strike. And in July this year,

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Sally Ann Jones was reportedly

killed by yet another drone strike,

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reportedly with her 12-year-old son.

Those targeted were in a war zone

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and considered a threat to the UK

but according to Russia, all foreign

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fighters have now fled.

The

territory of Syria has been

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completely liberated from fighters

of this terrorist organisation.

But

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could 40,000 would-be jihadists from

more than 100 countries really have

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vanished so quickly? Whatever the

case, some have little sympathy for

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those targeted up until now.

British

courts have tended latterly to take

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the bee that anybody who goes

overseas and receives military

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training from a group like Al-Qaeda

or Islamic State is, by definition,

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guilty of terrorism. Well, those who

are engaged in combat operations

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are, I think, legitimately

vulnerable to military attacks and

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we have seen cases where that has

happened. In some cases, targeted

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attacks where the individual

concerned is deemed to present a

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clear and present danger to the

United Kingdom.

This makes difficult

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listening for the parents of... He

is now a captive of Kurdish fighters

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after leaving work earlier this

year.

In my personal case, obviously

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my own son, is he on this list? Is

Gavin Williams hunting down, is he

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going to order SAS squads to hunt

down and kill my only son? I would

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like him to have a trial. I would

like him to stand up and account for

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what he has done and to be grilled

and any evidence there is against

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him should be brought up and if he

has done anything wrong, he should

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pay the price, but not to be killed

by an assassin, which sounds like

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what he is advocating.

Defence

Secretary Gavin Williamson has not

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said people would be targeted

outside of Syria and Iraq but the

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assertion that a dead terrorist

can't cause any harm makes some fear

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that this could be possible. Jack

bowls-mac Barber is one.

Are they

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going to be hunting down the jihadi

's who have returned to the UK? Well

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they hunt down people in Leicester,

Manchester and Birmingham, because

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they say their 400 returned. Are

they going to liquidate them as

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well?

Given that many Britons lost

or destroyed their passports when

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they were there, proving they were

even there, never mind if they were

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jihadi is, will not be easy.

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Richard Walton was the head

of the Met Police's counter

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terrorism command from 2011 to 2015

and he's here with me now.

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Do you think Gavin Williamson

changed policy this morning, or was

0:14:320:14:36

he kind of just sounding like he

changed policy?

It certainly sounds

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it. He certainly sounded more

balanced today and with hindsight,

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looking back. Alan stuffed words and

more balanced than he was yesterday.

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Cashmore balanced afterwards. You

must never give the impression or

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implied that killing terrorists is a

first result, that is not the

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strategy of the British Government.

We fight terrorism through the rule

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of law, whether that's true

international law in the context of

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war, or outside that zone.

And as

their agreement on that? Does the

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law just get in the way, is it human

rights nonsense, it is or has

0:15:160:15:21

everybody signed up to the idea and

has to stick to it?

It has been for

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many decades and it is something the

British system has learnt over

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decades, painfully sometimes the

Phillies in the past. If you look in

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the last four years, there have been

22 disrupted plots against

0:15:340:15:39

terrorists in the UK, disrupted the

route evidence collated and

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convictions achieved. The way to

defeat terrorism, as declared by the

0:15:440:15:48

Government's strategy, is through

the rule of law.

When he said, we

0:15:480:15:52

should do everything we can to

destroy and eliminate that threat,

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it sounds quite tough. But that is

not advocating anything illegal as

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such?

It is not, it is just the

language.

Everything we can means

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everything in the law?

It is the

impression with words like

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eliminate. That is the problem. That

is perhaps with hindsight where he

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is likely moderating his position.

Your position is that he was sort of

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showing off and playing to the crowd

rather than advocating this?

I think

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his words yesterday was slightly

imbalanced, speaking as the

0:16:240:16:29

Secretary of State for Defence and

not the Home Secretary or Foreign

0:16:290:16:32

Secretary might have a different

view.

What is the right policy? We

0:16:320:16:37

cannot kill everybody out there,

they'll not a bit of war, it is not

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legal, we cannot do it, what is

correct?

We have a strategy that is

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envied around the world. We are

renowned for convicting terrorists

0:16:470:16:50

and have convicted hundreds in the

UK. And many returning from war

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zones. The best case in recent times

was a man fighting in Raqqa and he

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came back into the country and was

identified and convicted with

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evidence from his phone and the

postings on Facebook. So it can be

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done through the rule of law. That

is our objective. The objective of

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the strategy is to convicted

terrorists and that is the way to

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improve confidence in the public. We

do not lower ourselves to the level

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of the terrorist.

Max Hill, the

Government official, a QC and

0:17:250:17:29

independent review of terrorist

legislation, he has taken a softer

0:17:290:17:34

sounding line and say sometimes you

have the make allowances for the

0:17:340:17:39

young and naive. I think he feels

there is resumption for some of

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those who went out there and were

brainwashed and misguided --

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redemption.

I think you said, we

need to provide space to divert

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those returning away from the

criminal justice system. On that

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point, I don't agree. I believe that

we should pursue, we have evidence

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against those for terrorist offences

and it should be pursued through the

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court. It is for a judge to decide

about leniency or sentencing and not

0:18:060:18:11

the police and intelligence

agencies, it is their job to gather

0:18:110:18:14

intelligence and evidence and

convicted terrorist through the rule

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of law.

He would put them all

through the courts first and then if

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a judge feels there is hope of

redemption...

This is not possession

0:18:200:18:25

of cannabis, it is terrorist

offences. I do not distinguish

0:18:250:18:28

between the morgue serious offences

and the lesser offences within the

0:18:280:18:38

terrorism portfolio -- the more

serious. I don't believe there is

0:18:380:18:43

discretion to say we should divert,

if there is evidence, I fancy should

0:18:430:18:48

be prosecuted and convicted. There

is plenty of time to be

0:18:480:18:54

rehabilitated in young offenders

institutes and in prisons and have

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energy into that and I believe in

rebuild attention of offenders, but

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we should not exercise discretion if

there is evidence of offences, we

0:19:020:19:06

should prosecute. That is the

position of the British Government

0:19:060:19:09

and the strategy of the British

Government in terms of fighting

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terrorism and we pursued it for many

years. It is sensible and we should

0:19:130:19:18

continue pursuing it.

Thanks very

much indeed. Brexit now.

0:19:180:19:24

For people working in TV,

the phrase "regional opt-out" is how

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you refer to the bit where the local

news comes on, after

0:19:270:19:30

the national bulletin.

0:19:300:19:31

But maybe it has a Brexit

connotation too.

0:19:310:19:33

For example, the fishing industry

has asked for the Humber ports

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to have a special free-trade status.

0:19:350:19:37

We've seen Nicola Sturgeon suggest

Scotland should have a national

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opt-out from any hard UK Brexit.

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The Mayor of London wants something

similar, and has already toyed

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with the suggestion of a special

London immigration policy.

0:19:440:19:49

Can this work?

0:19:490:19:50

Can we have a "pick-and-choose"

Brexit, treating different parts

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of the UK differently?

0:19:530:19:56

Well, as the big diplomacy

continues, our business editor -

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Helen Thomas - has been in Newquay

in Cornwall, which has particular

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worries about how its farms may be

affected by restrictions

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on migration, and which

wants a special deal.

0:20:040:20:09

As the UK prepares to put clear

water between us and the EU,

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what should come next?

0:20:150:20:18

The end of free movement means

the end of easy access

0:20:180:20:22

to European workers.

0:20:220:20:25

Could that leave some parts

of the country feeling rather empty?

0:20:250:20:29

It may look quiet but, actually,

Cornwall's economy relies on migrant

0:20:290:20:33

workers year-round -

in big sectors like food

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and tourism and in care.

0:20:360:20:38

Then there's the seasonal workforce.

0:20:380:20:42

The vast majority of workers

on fruit and flower farms

0:20:420:20:44

round here come from the EU.

0:20:440:20:48

It's why the county's asking

for special regional concession.

0:20:480:20:51

We think that Cornwall

knows Cornwall best.

0:20:510:20:56

But certainly, in this area,

Cornwall's traditional industries

0:20:560:20:58

could be devastated at the stroke

of a pen if we don't get the right

0:20:580:21:02

sort of deal coming out of Brexit.

0:21:020:21:03

And that's my real fear.

0:21:030:21:06

The Headland Hotel opened

for business in 1900.

0:21:060:21:10

It's played host to royalty,

the RAF in World War II,

0:21:100:21:12

and now to some of the four million

visitors to Cornwall each year.

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About 40% of its staff come

from the EU, but finding them

0:21:190:21:22

and holding onto them

is getting harder.

0:21:220:21:32

Often, our teams have friends

and have family that

0:21:320:21:34

would like to come over

and improve their lives really.

0:21:340:21:36

They almost recruit each other.

0:21:360:21:40

But we have, in the last sort

of three or four months,

0:21:400:21:43

seen very much a downturn in that.

0:21:430:21:47

Or we've seen what would be EU staff

go home, instead of it just

0:21:470:21:51

being for Christmas or just

being for a family

0:21:510:21:53

occasion, a wedding.

0:21:530:21:54

They've just decided

not to come back.

0:21:540:21:57

Serving up local produce

is a source of Cornish pride.

0:21:570:22:01

Food, agriculture and fisheries

account for about a third

0:22:010:22:03

of the county's employment.

0:22:030:22:09

Other countries, like Canada,

use regional visas to help attract

0:22:090:22:12

workers to less populated places.

0:22:120:22:20

A similar system here is something

that could prove more flexible

0:22:200:22:22

and tailored than the alternatives.

0:22:220:22:23

We're saying a place-based scheme -

recognising either Cornwall

0:22:230:22:26

or the South-West as a whole -

would be a far better way than doing

0:22:260:22:29

it, than trying to do

it sector by sector.

0:22:290:22:31

I think it gets very difficult

if you try and pigeonhole different

0:22:310:22:34

industries into areas

and into perhaps months

0:22:340:22:36

of the year, and it just simply

doesn't work like that.

0:22:360:22:38

Get one crop out of them,

then throw the whole lot away...

0:22:380:22:41

Jeremy Best owns this

strawberry farm.

0:22:410:22:45

In summer, workers from

the Czech Republic pick fruit here,

0:22:450:22:47

some returning year after year.

0:22:470:22:50

The UK doesn't have a visa scheme

for unskilled workers,

0:22:500:22:53

and it's a description

he objects to.

0:22:530:22:57

You try and do the hand-eye

coordination to pick several kilos

0:22:570:23:00

per minute, you know.

0:23:000:23:02

Literally going very,

very hard at it.

0:23:020:23:04

You try and do that

for nine hours a day.

0:23:040:23:06

That's called motivation

and that's a skill.

0:23:060:23:11

The other side of it is, these

people get on an aeroplane to come

0:23:110:23:14

here, so they want to come here.

0:23:140:23:16

In other words, I really don't want

a group of people working for me

0:23:160:23:19

who don't want to work here.

0:23:190:23:21

Over the nation, there

are about 85,000 people coming

0:23:210:23:23

from other EU countries

to work here.

0:23:230:23:29

Are we are going to find those

85,000 people from the local

0:23:290:23:33

population, from other parts

of Britain, when we've only

0:23:330:23:35

got 4% unemployment?

0:23:350:23:36

I don't think so.

0:23:360:23:37

Of course, Cornwall isn't alone

in wanting a home-grown deal.

0:23:370:23:40

London and Scotland both

want to take control

0:23:400:23:41

of their own visa system.

0:23:410:23:44

And places like the North East

are also considering if thresholds

0:23:440:23:47

and definitions set in Westminster

will really fit their local economy.

0:23:470:23:52

To get a skilled worker

visa currently requires

0:23:520:23:54

a salary of about £30,000.

0:23:540:23:56

The average salary

in Cornwall is 17,500.

0:23:560:24:03

Cornish hospitality,

Cornish strawberries, Cornish cream.

0:24:080:24:15

Smaller businesses are less likely

to employ overseas workers,

0:24:150:24:18

and some like to be local.

0:24:180:24:22

I think we've always had

plenty of people to work.

0:24:220:24:27

Erm, foreign people coming in.

0:24:270:24:30

We've had two girls

at one time with us.

0:24:300:24:32

They were marvellous.

0:24:320:24:33

But we've got marvellous

staff in the kitchen now

0:24:330:24:35

and they're all local.

0:24:350:24:39

So I don't see a problem at all.

0:24:390:24:41

No, they're very

hard-working, conscientious.

0:24:410:24:42

Yes.

0:24:420:24:43

And they really enjoy it.

0:24:430:24:45

Others do think Cornwall's economy

has particular needs,

0:24:450:24:49

but would prefer a different

solution - one drawn up 230 miles

0:24:490:24:52

away, in Westminster.

0:24:520:24:54

I would prefer to see some sector

deals done that are national,

0:24:540:24:56

but very specific to the different

sectors of our economy.

0:24:560:25:01

I think we can make

Cornwall's case within that.

0:25:010:25:05

And the minute we start breaking

the country up and every different

0:25:050:25:09

region wanting its own bespoke

scheme on immigration,

0:25:090:25:12

I think it will become far too

complex and then potentially more

0:25:120:25:15

open to abuse.

0:25:150:25:17

Cornwall voted to leave the EU but,

Leave or Remain, everyone

0:25:170:25:20

still wants a system that works.

0:25:200:25:24

I think we have an urban-based

government, we're a very rural

0:25:240:25:27

county, and I don't think the two

match up very well.

0:25:270:25:35

So maybe we will be put

on the backwater a little bit

0:25:350:25:38

and the MPs will only see us two

weeks a year when they go to Rock

0:25:380:25:42

on their summer holiday.

0:25:420:25:44

The trouble is, every sector, every

region thinks it has a special case.

0:25:440:25:50

Talks in Brussels aren't the only

complex negotiations ahead.

0:25:500:25:58

Helen Thomas.

0:25:580:25:59

Helen Thomas.

0:25:590:26:00

Tomorrow, the Parliamentary

and Health Service Ombudsman

0:26:000:26:02

will publish a report

into the treatment at the hands

0:26:020:26:04

of the NHS of a 19-year-old

woman back in 2012.

0:26:040:26:06

Averil Hart was suffering from

anorexia and was very underweight.

0:26:060:26:11

She had spent almost

a year as an in-patient

0:26:110:26:15

in an Eating Disorders Unit,

but had been discharged,

0:26:150:26:17

as she was about to go to college.

0:26:170:26:19

And then, five years ago today,

she collapsed in her room

0:26:190:26:22

at university, just as she was due

to undergo a medical review.

0:26:220:26:27

She died eight days later.

0:26:270:26:33

Her father, Nic, tonight told

us about his daughter.

0:26:330:26:38

Well, Averil was

an amazing daughter.

0:26:380:26:40

Wonderful person to be around.

0:26:400:26:41

She was really outgoing.

0:26:410:26:45

Erm, loved sports,

but loved literature.

0:26:450:26:52

And, erm, just a good,

fun girl to have in the family.

0:26:520:26:58

And, as parents, we were incredibly

proud of her and loved her to bits.

0:26:580:27:02

Nic Ward there.

0:27:020:27:03

He levelled a complaint against four

different NHS organisations,

0:27:030:27:05

for the way they had cared

or treated for Averil right

0:27:050:27:09

to the very end of her life,

and tomorrow's report is the result.

0:27:090:27:12

It's expected to find that

all those organisations did

0:27:120:27:15

fail her in some way

and that her death was avoidable.

0:27:150:27:19

And that adult eating disorders

should be treated as thoroughly

0:27:190:27:22

as adolescent problems are.

0:27:220:27:28

I'm joined by the author and mental

health campaigner Hope Virgo,

0:27:280:27:33

graduate Lucy Pearce,

and Joanna Silver -

0:27:330:27:35

Lead Therapist for Eating Disorders

at Nightingale Hospital.

0:27:350:27:40

Good evening. Joanne, just explain

what anorexia is.

Anorexia is a

0:27:400:27:48

mental health illness and patients

with anorexia will restrict their

0:27:480:27:53

eating and maintain a lower than

normal weight.

So it has a physical

0:27:530:28:00

manifestation, but it should

entirely be seen as a mental health

0:28:000:28:03

problem?

Absolutely, while on the

surface anorexia looks about food,

0:28:030:28:08

it is a way of expressing or

avoiding feelings. It is a very

0:28:080:28:13

serious illness that can have very

serious fracture.

How common is it

0:28:130:28:19

in a different age groups, what is

the difference between adult

0:28:190:28:22

incidences and teenage or younger?

It is primarily found within

0:28:220:28:27

teenagers and younger adults. But it

is much more common in adults and

0:28:270:28:34

even older adults than perhaps one

realises.

You have both been dealing

0:28:340:28:40

with or have dealt with this. Tell

us a little about your experience.

0:28:400:28:46

Lucy, you'll started before you were

a teenager.

I started suffering from

0:28:460:28:52

anorexia when I was about 11. It was

not diagnosed or dealt with until

0:28:520:28:58

13. And then I received some

treatment until about 15, 16. But

0:28:580:29:03

treatment is trailed off and was

never really followed up and was not

0:29:030:29:06

as helpful as I found it could have

been and I recovered when I was

0:29:060:29:10

about 19.

It was really your entire

teenage years absorbed with that.

0:29:100:29:13

How about you?

I developed it when I

was around 13 and I live with it

0:29:130:29:19

until 17. I hid it from friends,

family, everyone. You hit it for

0:29:190:29:26

that time? I don't think people

really understood anorexia when I

0:29:260:29:29

was younger.

You must have been

losing DUP three, did people say you

0:29:290:29:35

are looking too thin?

People notice

my body weight but I got good at

0:29:350:29:39

hiding it and I would cause scenes

at family eating times to avoid

0:29:390:29:43

eating. When I was 17, I was

admitted to a mental health hospital

0:29:430:29:48

because my heart nearly stopped and

I spent a year getting intensive.

In

0:29:480:29:52

patient.

0:29:520:29:57

You have had an experience of it as

an adult, because you are in your

0:29:570:30:02

20s now?

Yes, about a year and a

half ago I relapsed again. My

0:30:020:30:07

grandma passed away and I found it

difficult to deal with the grief and

0:30:070:30:10

the emotion that came with it and my

way of coping with it, for some

0:30:100:30:14

reason I went back to that anorexia

but the most frustrating thing was

0:30:140:30:18

that I knew what was happening and I

knew that I could get really sick

0:30:180:30:22

again and it would be easy to but I

didn't want to. So I referred myself

0:30:220:30:27

to the mental health hospital where

I live in Wandsworth but I wasn't

0:30:270:30:31

under way so I got sent away and had

to kind of deal with it on my own.

0:30:310:30:37

And the adult experience, apart from

the treatment which we will come to,

0:30:370:30:41

the feeling of anorexia as a young

adult, the same as a teenager or

0:30:410:30:46

does it manifest in a different way

at all?

I think it's similar. I

0:30:460:30:50

think what I found frustrating for

me is when people look at anorexics,

0:30:500:30:54

they assume they will be really,

really skinny, bony, but you can

0:30:540:30:58

have an eating disorder and not be

really underweight. You have that

0:30:580:31:03

anorexic mindset and that is just as

dangerous for you as being really

0:31:030:31:07

skinny.

Lucy, can you do anything to

explain to people, because most

0:31:070:31:12

people are not anorexic, so it's

very difficult to explain what the

0:31:120:31:17

mindset is. Is it possible to

describe?

I guess it would be the

0:31:170:31:21

same kind of thing, almost trying to

control your emotions through the

0:31:210:31:25

way you eat. For me, it was very

much controlling my life through

0:31:250:31:32

controlling my food, when I couldn't

control anything else around me. You

0:31:320:31:35

get into a strict mindset where you

think about yourself and it's

0:31:350:31:40

completely different to how

everybody else views you and what

0:31:400:31:43

everybody else sees but you don't

really be that. It's also about

0:31:430:31:47

lying to people about it, keeping it

hidden from other people and you

0:31:470:31:51

almost keep it hidden from yourself

as well without realising, I think,

0:31:510:31:54

because you don't admit it to

yourself.

Joanna, why do we think,

0:31:540:31:59

clearly a lot of teenagers recover

from it in adulthood. What is

0:31:590:32:08

difference between those who have it

in teenager had and those who

0:32:080:32:12

outgrow it, for want of a better

phrase?

I think something important

0:32:120:32:18

to emphasise his early intervention.

Someone with an eating disorder for

0:32:180:32:21

a long time and become harder to

treat as the disease becomes more

0:32:210:32:25

entrenched. I think early

intervention is really important and

0:32:250:32:30

also openness. People who have had

support, people asking them how they

0:32:300:32:34

are doing. Not just... Obviously

weight is vital to focus on and we

0:32:340:32:39

must think about the risk, but it

can't just be about their weight, it

0:32:390:32:45

must be about what is going on for

this person at this moment in time.

0:32:450:32:49

So support can be the difference

between recovering earlier and it

0:32:490:32:52

carrying on.

Hope, your experience

of adult treatment wasn't

0:32:520:32:57

particularly...

It was appalling.

But was it worse, is it appalling

0:32:570:33:06

for teenagers as well or would you

say it deteriorates?

I think it

0:33:060:33:11

deteriorates as you are an adult. I

think there's potentially less money

0:33:110:33:14

going into it and people don't

understand it as much. I think often

0:33:140:33:18

with eating disorders people think

it's a phase you go through and that

0:33:180:33:22

you should just eat and it's not as

easy as that. As an adult, I think

0:33:220:33:26

people don't have as much time for

you if you have an eating disorder.

0:33:260:33:30

They know teenagers go through

things and they expect you to sort

0:33:300:33:34

it out as an adult? What is the

therapy that works, particularly for

0:33:340:33:42

adults?

In terms of therapy, the

therapy we tend to use is cognitive

0:33:420:33:47

behaviour therapy for eating

disorders. That would be looking at

0:33:470:33:53

a person's relationship with food

and also what might be underlying

0:33:530:33:56

the eating disorder. Also, looking

at the family can be very important

0:33:560:34:03

and there is more and more, at the

moment, about involving carers in

0:34:030:34:08

treatment and thinking about how

carers can be supportive and helpful

0:34:080:34:12

in helping the sufferer recover.

All

of you, we have this report coming

0:34:120:34:17

out tomorrow which appears to show

the adult treatment is not good

0:34:170:34:20

enough and not on a par with

adolescent treatment. What does the

0:34:200:34:25

NHS need to do to change? Is it just

a case of more people? Doctors who

0:34:250:34:31

have more experience? What would you

change, Lucy?

I really think it's

0:34:310:34:36

the way people approach it and think

about it. I would have a different

0:34:360:34:40

way of people understanding it. I

found with my experience, they

0:34:400:34:46

didn't really seem to know what you

are going through or how to help you

0:34:460:34:51

or how to approach you. I think it

would be really helpful to have

0:34:510:34:55

specific clinics almost that are

more experienced in these things.

0:34:550:35:00

Yes, I think GPs may be need to be

looking for it a bit more. Eating

0:35:000:35:05

disorders can be very secretive.

There is a lot of shame about having

0:35:050:35:09

an eating disorder. Someone might

come to a GP with physical symptoms,

0:35:090:35:12

complaining of stomach pains and it

may actually be that an eating

0:35:120:35:17

disorder is going on. I think GPs

need to be on it, early

0:35:170:35:21

intervention, referring when

necessary.

I was going to say, also,

0:35:210:35:27

when people leave treatment at 18,

there is a bit of a dip. I didn't

0:35:270:35:34

get support when I left hospital and

I had been promised it as an

0:35:340:35:39

outpatient in adult services and

there needs to be something going

0:35:390:35:41

on.

A seamless transition. Thank you

all for sharing your stories.

0:35:410:35:47

For details of organisations

which offer advice and support

0:35:470:35:49

with eating disorders,

go online to bbc.co.uk/actionline.

0:35:490:35:54

The EU may have told Britain

that it is no longer eligible

0:35:580:36:01

to have a European Capital

of Culture after Brexit,

0:36:010:36:04

but we can still have our own

UK City of Culture -

0:36:040:36:07

and, tonight, the 2021

city was announced.

0:36:070:36:10

Hull enjoys the title at the moment,

but on the One Show this evening,

0:36:100:36:14

we heard who shall be taking over.

0:36:140:36:17

And the winner is...

0:36:180:36:20

Coventry!

0:36:200:36:22

APPLAUSE AND CHEERING

0:36:220:36:32

Four other cities

were in the running,

0:36:350:36:36

so commiserations to Swansea,

Stoke-upon-Trent,

0:36:360:36:39

Sunderland and Paisley -

which I think is, strictly

0:36:390:36:41

speaking, a town.

0:36:410:36:42

But let's not focus

on the runners-up.

0:36:420:36:49

Pauline Black, author and lead

singer of the band the selector

0:36:490:36:56

backed her city's bid. Do you think

this is a big night for Coventry?

It

0:36:560:37:04

is a superb night for Coventry. I

was there in 2015, talking to people

0:37:040:37:12

really early on and David Burbage

was one of the people at the

0:37:120:37:16

forefront of getting this whole

thing together and tonight to be at

0:37:160:37:19

the Belgrade Theatre here in

Coventry and just, you know, that

0:37:190:37:24

wonderful role when it came up that

we had won the bid was tremendous.

0:37:240:37:29

Is everybody in Coventry on board or

is it a small clique of those who

0:37:290:37:34

have applied? How big a deal is this

for the normal person?

Well, it is

0:37:340:37:39

very cold at the moment here in

Coventry. I am down by the cathedral

0:37:390:37:44

and it's pretty deserted at the

moment. But definitely people have

0:37:440:37:48

been out celebrating in pubs and

places, out on the street, and just

0:37:480:37:52

generally everyone turns up and

congratulate each other and things

0:37:520:37:57

like this. So I think it's something

which will grow. There's always an

0:37:570:38:01

element of people who are quite

suspicious about these things, they

0:38:010:38:06

think, what's it going to default

me? But I think this is something

0:38:060:38:10

everybody can get on board with.

I've been to hold quite recently and

0:38:100:38:16

seen what happened there and I think

something very, very similar can

0:38:160:38:20

happen in Coventry. There are so

many good things that happen in

0:38:200:38:23

Coventry anyway, quite apart from

anything else.

Give us an example.

0:38:230:38:28

We have one of the largest free

family festivals with huge bounce

0:38:280:38:32

coming here every year, the Godiva

Festival, for one thing. Across the

0:38:320:38:40

city, always, there is so much

diversity here. People getting

0:38:400:38:44

involved in other peoples cultures,

things like this. That's what it's

0:38:440:38:48

all about. It's not just the UK City

of Culture these days, I consider it

0:38:480:38:55

the UK city of multiculturalism and

Coventry is the bearer of that sign.

0:38:550:39:00

I suppose in cultural terms, what is

this about? Taking a city that has

0:39:000:39:06

great culture and rewarding mat or

trying to promote culture in a city

0:39:060:39:10

that needs more? Does Coventry need

more culture? Is that what is about?

0:39:100:39:18

No, I think it's about promoting

what we do have two the rest of the

0:39:180:39:21

country and the rest of the world.

It's something which is intrinsic to

0:39:210:39:27

Coventry but people don't know about

it. This old adage of being sent to

0:39:270:39:33

Coventry. Now you can get sent to

Coventry and really feel you are

0:39:330:39:37

going to be involved in something

and people will see things.

Pauline,

0:39:370:39:41

talus what success feels like. If

this goes well, how will we know?

0:39:410:39:47

What will it look like?

I think we

will know it has gone well when we

0:39:470:39:55

have inward investment, that is

certainly part of it, of businesses.

0:39:550:40:00

Money coming into the city to fund

other projects, young people's

0:40:000:40:06

projects in particular. That is what

I'm the greatest fan of. And also

0:40:060:40:12

the whole kind of history that

Coventry has of reinvention, of

0:40:120:40:18

reconciliation, of peace, all of

those kinds of things. I mean, I am

0:40:180:40:22

standing in front of one of the

greatest symbols Coventry, I guess,

0:40:220:40:28

the Coventry Cathedral, which was

bombed during the Second World War

0:40:280:40:31

and there's the old and they knew

and if anything embodies Coventry

0:40:310:40:36

and the Coventry spirit, I consider

it to be that.

You have sold it

0:40:360:40:40

well. Pauline, good luck and

congratulations.

Thanks very much.

0:40:400:40:44

Thank you very much.

0:40:440:40:48

That's about it from us,

but before we go, we've just been

0:40:480:40:51

talking about Coventry's artistic

and cultural legacy,

0:40:510:40:53

now let's actually hear it.

0:40:530:40:58

Here's Coventry's The Specials,

with Ghost Town -

0:40:580:41:00

which Coventry obviously now isn't!

0:41:000:41:02

Goodnight.

0:41:020:41:03

# This town, is coming

like a ghost town

0:41:030:41:08

# All the clubs have been

closed down

0:41:080:41:13

# This place, is coming

like a ghost town

0:41:140:41:19

# Bands won't play no more

0:41:200:41:25

# Too much fighting

on the dance floor

0:41:250:41:28

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis.

A new Brexit border deal draft is proposed, how to deal with returning jihadis, Cornwall's Brexit dilemma, Coventry will be the UK's City of Culture for 2021, plus is adult anorexia provision failing?