07/12/2017 Newsnight


07/12/2017

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Transcript


LineFromTo

It seems the pieces may be

falling into place tonight.

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Could a deal soon be done and then

Britain move to phase two

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of the Brexit talks?

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The big names in Brussels

are getting ready

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for something to emerge

at first light tomorrow.

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Is the PM really poised to crack

the Irish border conundrum?

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Meet Gavin Williamson,

the new Defence Secretary.

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He says we should kill British

jihadis who are overseas.

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Was he grandstanding or advocating

that we break the law?

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We'll hear what exactly the law is,

and how best to deal

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with former IS fighters.

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Also tonight...

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Just a good fun girl to have in the

party and as parents, we are

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incredibly proud of her. -- to have

in the family, and as parents, we

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are incredibly proud of her.

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Anorexia took

his daughter's life.

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Are adult sufferers of this

serious mental illness

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being failed by the system?

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Hello.

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We'll start tonight

with the latest on Brexit,

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and although there is no deal

to report - no crossing

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of a threshold into phase

two of the talks yet -

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there has been a sudden flurry

of optimistic comments,

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and the organising of a possible

dash to Brussels by

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the Prime Minister, maybe

early, early tomorrow.

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That would be a choreographed

announcement.

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To be honest, the problem of sorting

out the Irish border

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issue had looked huge -

and with the deadline of Sunday,

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it seems remarkable that we may get

a deal in the morning,

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with time to spare.

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But then again, we may not!

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Well, Nick Watt, our political

editor is here with me.

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Nick, I don't think we'd expected

this, had we? Suddenly Reuters

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started talking about...

Well, a

month ago, I was told by people that

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this Friday was the unofficial

deadline because after this Friday

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it is very difficult to make

substantive changes to European

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Council draft conclusions. Progress

has been made today. I am told it

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has been a decent day in comparison

to yesterday which was described as

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a holding pattern. So the Prime

Minister has talking to the

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Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, and

discussions have taken place through

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the normal channels and I am told it

is not impossible that the Prime

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Minister could make an early morning

visit to Brussels tomorrow morning

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to stand alongside the president of

the European Council, Donald Tusk,

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because of course he is in the

decision-making and it is up to the

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European Council to decide if we

move onto the next stage. The

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message is that we are making

progress but we're not quite there.

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Talks are continuing through the

night and for the Prime Minister,

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the most crucial talk she's got to

have tonight is with Arlene Foster,

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DUP leader.

What is conspicuous,

this has all come out, I haven't

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heard anything about how they have

resolved this. Any indication of

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what they have done?

I think what we

are looking at is Leo Varadkar was

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very clear that the wording that was

there on Monday has to but you can

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have additional wording and what

that has got to do for the DUP is

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make absolutely clear that Northern

Ireland is fully and completely

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integrated with the rest of the

United Kingdom. Now, their strategy

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this week, because we have MPs

talking about how it is a toxic

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document, they want to make a Prime

Minister sweat. I have been speaking

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to DUP sources. They say we're not

there yet, talking about how they

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are moving slowly, surely, carefully

but crucially confidently and

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interestingly talk of Donald Tusk

speaking tomorrow morning has put a

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shot in the arm because they say

they like positive momentum.

I dare

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say it will be on our programme

tomorrow evening but stay there

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because you are helping with the

next item well.

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Gavin Williamson is not the best

known cabinet minster -

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he only moved into his job

as Defence Secretary five weeks ago.

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Here he is - a Remainer,

the most striking thing

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about his appointment was just how

unpopular it appeared to be

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among many of his colleagues,

who felt he was promoted too

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far too young.

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So he has a lot to prove.

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And it's thus, perhaps,

no surprise he's been

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trying to prove himself.

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This week, he vowed

to save two heroic army dogs

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from being put down.

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And today, he was in the Daily Mail,

pledging to be tough

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on British Jihadists returning

from fighting with

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so-called Islamic State.

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He implied that Britain would search

out and kill the fighters.

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Populist stuff.

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But what did he mean?

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Often there's less to these

kinds of pronouncements

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than meets the eye.

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Did he mean that we should break

the law and shoot to kill?

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Or was he was just trying to sound

tough while making no

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change in policy at all?

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Certainly, there was a hint of

backtracking in later TV interviews;

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with a stress on continuity.

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Whether it's with Daesh, al-Qaeda,

operating in foreign fields, we need

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to deal with that,

we are dealing with that.

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We have been over the last few years

continually tackling

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the terrorist threat.

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We'll continue to do

that going forward.

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So has Mr Williamson said

something significant,

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and is there more we should be doing

to stop or even kill

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British fighters abroad?

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We did ask him onto the programme

but he was not available.

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But with the politics of this,

Nick Watt, our political

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editor is still with me.

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What did you make of that Daily Mail

interview?

Well, I spoke to one

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senior MoD source who said there was

shot in the MoD when they saw these

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comments this morning. One said to

me that this sounded like shoot to

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kill which is taking yourself

outside of the law. They said to me

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that when you are an international

rules -based country you don't get

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down to the same level as the

terrorists. There was real anger and

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concern at what was being said and

some criticism of Karen Williamson

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-- of Gavin Williamson, a new

Defence Secretary, clearly has

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leadership ambitions, and he is

clearly burnishing them.

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Interestingly in Downing Street they

don't seem too concerned. I think

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Gavin Williamson was talking about

targeting terrorists in the theatre

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of war where the UK is involved in

air strikes and they are saying when

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it is the theatre of war the rules

are less stringent than when David

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Cameron had to give very stringent

rules to air strikes, particularly

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in 2015.

Let's dwell on that the

Lytton -- dwell on that a little.

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Newsnight understands

that back in the 2000s,

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when UKL forces were active

in Helmand Province in Afghanistan,

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and it would have been helpful

to make drone strikes in Pakistan

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at the time, but the advice was that

that was not lawful.

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So let's get a legal take now

from the human rights

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lawyer, Fahad Ansari.

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Good evening. What is the difference

between a dream strike aiming to

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kill somebody that is legal and one

that is illegal? -- a drone strike?

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We live in a democracy with a rule

of law and we do not have the death

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penalty in this country. Everybody,

no matter what the allegation

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against them, is entitled to a fair

trial. Now that context, for any

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action to take place, whether it is

by Ed drone, an air strike, what

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ever it is, it is unlawful because

you was a merrily executing someone.

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Yes, but we know not every drone

strike out in Syria is unlawful.

It

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all depends on whether the UK is

involved in armed conflict in Syria.

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Let's assume that de facto we are.

We are allowed to drone strike

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people in Syria because it is a

theatre of war?

Not exactly. The

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threat has to be imminent. Even if

you are engaged in war, if Syria and

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the UK are at war, who are you at

war with? On whose authority are you

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flying your aeroplanes into Syria?

I

don't want to get into the legality

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of the Syria action at the moment.

You mentioned Syria.

Because that is

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where our strikes have been. If you

are in the theatre of war, you can

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drone strike in the theatre of war?

When you drop this drone, how can

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you guarantee it won't kill someone

else in the vicinity? I'll give you

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an example, a British citizen was

killed in an American drone strike a

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few months ago. Sally Jones. Do you

know who was killed with her? Her

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12-year-old son.

What was his crime?

But you are not going to argue that

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all drone strikes are illegal?

Unfortunately, the way the Defence

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Secretary has pitched this, he

didn't specify the theatre of war,

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he didn't specify who he was

targeting. He just said a dead

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terrorist couldn't argue. He does he

define as a terrorist? Assumedly he

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is talking about IS at the moment.

The reality is that the British and

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has already executed two of its

citizens within Syria.

We will hear

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more about that now. Fahad, thank

you.

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So, how big is the problem

with so-called IS fighters trying

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to return to the UK -

and how are they being dealt with?

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Here's Mike Thomson.

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The first British to Hadi in Syria

to be hunted down -- British jihadi

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in Syria to be hunted down, in this

case by an RAF drone was Reyaad

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Khan. The next to die was June eight

Hussein. The next to die was the man

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known as jihadi John, hit by another

drone strike. And in July this year,

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Sally Ann Jones was reportedly

killed by yet another drone strike,

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reportedly with her 12-year-old son.

Those targeted were in a war zone

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and considered a threat to the UK

but according to Russia, all foreign

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fighters have now fled.

The

territory of Syria has been

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completely liberated from fighters

of this terrorist organisation.

But

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could 40,000 would-be jihadists from

more than 100 countries really have

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vanished so quickly? Whatever the

case, some have little sympathy for

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those targeted up until now.

British

courts have tended latterly to take

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the bee that anybody who goes

overseas and receives military

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training from a group like Al-Qaeda

or Islamic State is, by definition,

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guilty of terrorism. Well, those who

are engaged in combat operations

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are, I think, legitimately

vulnerable to military attacks and

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we have seen cases where that has

happened. In some cases, targeted

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attacks where the individual

concerned is deemed to present a

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clear and present danger to the

United Kingdom.

This makes difficult

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listening for the parents of... He

is now a captive of Kurdish fighters

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after leaving work earlier this

year.

In my personal case, obviously

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my own son, is he on this list? Is

Gavin Williams hunting down, is he

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going to order SAS squads to hunt

down and kill my only son? I would

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like him to have a trial. I would

like him to stand up and account for

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what he has done and to be grilled

and any evidence there is against

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him should be brought up and if he

has done anything wrong, he should

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pay the price, but not to be killed

by an assassin, which sounds like

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what he is advocating.

Defence

Secretary Gavin Williamson has not

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said people would be targeted

outside of Syria and Iraq but the

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assertion that a dead terrorist

can't cause any harm makes some fear

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that this could be possible. Jack

bowls-mac Barber is one.

Are they

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going to be hunting down the jihadi

's who have returned to the UK? Well

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they hunt down people in Leicester,

Manchester and Birmingham, because

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they say their 400 returned. Are

they going to liquidate them as

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well?

Given that many Britons lost

or destroyed their passports when

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they were there, proving they were

even there, never mind if they were

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jihadi is, will not be easy.

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Richard Walton was the head

of the Met Police's counter

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terrorism command from 2011 to 2015

and he's here with me now.

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Do you think Gavin Williamson

changed policy this morning, or was

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he kind of just sounding like he

changed policy?

It certainly sounds

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it. He certainly sounded more

balanced today and with hindsight,

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looking back. Alan stuffed words and

more balanced than he was yesterday.

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Cashmore balanced afterwards. You

must never give the impression or

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implied that killing terrorists is a

first result, that is not the

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strategy of the British Government.

We fight terrorism through the rule

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of law, whether that's true

international law in the context of

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war, or outside that zone.

And as

their agreement on that? Does the

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law just get in the way, is it human

rights nonsense, it is or has

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everybody signed up to the idea and

has to stick to it?

It has been for

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many decades and it is something the

British system has learnt over

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decades, painfully sometimes the

Phillies in the past. If you look in

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the last four years, there have been

22 disrupted plots against

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terrorists in the UK, disrupted the

route evidence collated and

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convictions achieved. The way to

defeat terrorism, as declared by the

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Government's strategy, is through

the rule of law.

When he said, we

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should do everything we can to

destroy and eliminate that threat,

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it sounds quite tough. But that is

not advocating anything illegal as

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such?

It is not, it is just the

language.

Everything we can means

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everything in the law?

It is the

impression with words like

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eliminate. That is the problem. That

is perhaps with hindsight where he

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is likely moderating his position.

Your position is that he was sort of

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showing off and playing to the crowd

rather than advocating this?

I think

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his words yesterday was slightly

imbalanced, speaking as the

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Secretary of State for Defence and

not the Home Secretary or Foreign

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Secretary might have a different

view.

What is the right policy? We

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cannot kill everybody out there,

they'll not a bit of war, it is not

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legal, we cannot do it, what is

correct?

We have a strategy that is

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envied around the world. We are

renowned for convicting terrorists

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and have convicted hundreds in the

UK. And many returning from war

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zones. The best case in recent times

was a man fighting in Raqqa and he

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came back into the country and was

identified and convicted with

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evidence from his phone and the

postings on Facebook. So it can be

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done through the rule of law. That

is our objective. The objective of

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the strategy is to convicted

terrorists and that is the way to

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improve confidence in the public. We

do not lower ourselves to the level

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of the terrorist.

Max Hill, the

Government official, a QC and

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independent review of terrorist

legislation, he has taken a softer

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sounding line and say sometimes you

have the make allowances for the

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young and naive. I think he feels

there is resumption for some of

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those who went out there and were

brainwashed and misguided --

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redemption.

I think you said, we

need to provide space to divert

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those returning away from the

criminal justice system. On that

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point, I don't agree. I believe that

we should pursue, we have evidence

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against those for terrorist offences

and it should be pursued through the

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court. It is for a judge to decide

about leniency or sentencing and not

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the police and intelligence

agencies, it is their job to gather

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intelligence and evidence and

convicted terrorist through the rule

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of law.

He would put them all

through the courts first and then if

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a judge feels there is hope of

redemption...

This is not possession

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of cannabis, it is terrorist

offences. I do not distinguish

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between the morgue serious offences

and the lesser offences within the

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terrorism portfolio -- the more

serious. I don't believe there is

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discretion to say we should divert,

if there is evidence, I fancy should

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be prosecuted and convicted. There

is plenty of time to be

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rehabilitated in young offenders

institutes and in prisons and have

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energy into that and I believe in

rebuild attention of offenders, but

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we should not exercise discretion if

there is evidence of offences, we

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should prosecute. That is the

position of the British Government

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and the strategy of the British

Government in terms of fighting

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terrorism and we pursued it for many

years. It is sensible and we should

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continue pursuing it.

Thanks very

much indeed. Brexit now.

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For people working in TV,

the phrase "regional opt-out" is how

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you refer to the bit where the local

news comes on, after

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the national bulletin.

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But maybe it has a Brexit

connotation too.

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For example, the fishing industry

has asked for the Humber ports

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to have a special free-trade status.

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We've seen Nicola Sturgeon suggest

Scotland should have a national

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opt-out from any hard UK Brexit.

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The Mayor of London wants something

similar, and has already toyed

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with the suggestion of a special

London immigration policy.

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Can this work?

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Can we have a "pick-and-choose"

Brexit, treating different parts

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of the UK differently?

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Well, as the big diplomacy

continues, our business editor -

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Helen Thomas - has been in Newquay

in Cornwall, which has particular

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worries about how its farms may be

affected by restrictions

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on migration, and which

wants a special deal.

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As the UK prepares to put clear

water between us and the EU,

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what should come next?

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The end of free movement means

the end of easy access

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to European workers.

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Could that leave some parts

of the country feeling rather empty?

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It may look quiet but, actually,

Cornwall's economy relies on migrant

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workers year-round -

in big sectors like food

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and tourism and in care.

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Then there's the seasonal workforce.

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The vast majority of workers

on fruit and flower farms

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round here come from the EU.

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It's why the county's asking

for special regional concession.

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We think that Cornwall

knows Cornwall best.

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But certainly, in this area,

Cornwall's traditional industries

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could be devastated at the stroke

of a pen if we don't get the right

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sort of deal coming out of Brexit.

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And that's my real fear.

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The Headland Hotel opened

for business in 1900.

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It's played host to royalty,

the RAF in World War II,

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and now to some of the four million

visitors to Cornwall each year.

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About 40% of its staff come

from the EU, but finding them

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and holding onto them

is getting harder.

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Often, our teams have friends

and have family that

0:21:320:21:34

would like to come over

and improve their lives really.

0:21:340:21:36

They almost recruit each other.

0:21:360:21:40

But we have, in the last sort

of three or four months,

0:21:400:21:43

seen very much a downturn in that.

0:21:430:21:47

Or we've seen what would be EU staff

go home, instead of it just

0:21:470:21:51

being for Christmas or just

being for a family

0:21:510:21:53

occasion, a wedding.

0:21:530:21:54

They've just decided

not to come back.

0:21:540:21:57

Serving up local produce

is a source of Cornish pride.

0:21:570:22:01

Food, agriculture and fisheries

account for about a third

0:22:010:22:03

of the county's employment.

0:22:030:22:09

Other countries, like Canada,

use regional visas to help attract

0:22:090:22:12

workers to less populated places.

0:22:120:22:20

A similar system here is something

that could prove more flexible

0:22:200:22:22

and tailored than the alternatives.

0:22:220:22:23

We're saying a place-based scheme -

recognising either Cornwall

0:22:230:22:26

or the South-West as a whole -

would be a far better way than doing

0:22:260:22:29

it, than trying to do

it sector by sector.

0:22:290:22:31

I think it gets very difficult

if you try and pigeonhole different

0:22:310:22:34

industries into areas

and into perhaps months

0:22:340:22:36

of the year, and it just simply

doesn't work like that.

0:22:360:22:38

Get one crop out of them,

then throw the whole lot away...

0:22:380:22:41

Jeremy Best owns this

strawberry farm.

0:22:410:22:45

In summer, workers from

the Czech Republic pick fruit here,

0:22:450:22:47

some returning year after year.

0:22:470:22:50

The UK doesn't have a visa scheme

for unskilled workers,

0:22:500:22:53

and it's a description

he objects to.

0:22:530:22:57

You try and do the hand-eye

coordination to pick several kilos

0:22:570:23:00

per minute, you know.

0:23:000:23:02

Literally going very,

very hard at it.

0:23:020:23:04

You try and do that

for nine hours a day.

0:23:040:23:06

That's called motivation

and that's a skill.

0:23:060:23:11

The other side of it is, these

people get on an aeroplane to come

0:23:110:23:14

here, so they want to come here.

0:23:140:23:16

In other words, I really don't want

a group of people working for me

0:23:160:23:19

who don't want to work here.

0:23:190:23:21

Over the nation, there

are about 85,000 people coming

0:23:210:23:23

from other EU countries

to work here.

0:23:230:23:29

Are we are going to find those

85,000 people from the local

0:23:290:23:33

population, from other parts

of Britain, when we've only

0:23:330:23:35

got 4% unemployment?

0:23:350:23:36

I don't think so.

0:23:360:23:37

Of course, Cornwall isn't alone

in wanting a home-grown deal.

0:23:370:23:40

London and Scotland both

want to take control

0:23:400:23:41

of their own visa system.

0:23:410:23:44

And places like the North East

are also considering if thresholds

0:23:440:23:47

and definitions set in Westminster

will really fit their local economy.

0:23:470:23:52

To get a skilled worker

visa currently requires

0:23:520:23:54

a salary of about £30,000.

0:23:540:23:56

The average salary

in Cornwall is 17,500.

0:23:560:24:03

Cornish hospitality,

Cornish strawberries, Cornish cream.

0:24:080:24:15

Smaller businesses are less likely

to employ overseas workers,

0:24:150:24:18

and some like to be local.

0:24:180:24:22

I think we've always had

plenty of people to work.

0:24:220:24:27

Erm, foreign people coming in.

0:24:270:24:30

We've had two girls

at one time with us.

0:24:300:24:32

They were marvellous.

0:24:320:24:33

But we've got marvellous

staff in the kitchen now

0:24:330:24:35

and they're all local.

0:24:350:24:39

So I don't see a problem at all.

0:24:390:24:41

No, they're very

hard-working, conscientious.

0:24:410:24:42

Yes.

0:24:420:24:43

And they really enjoy it.

0:24:430:24:45

Others do think Cornwall's economy

has particular needs,

0:24:450:24:49

but would prefer a different

solution - one drawn up 230 miles

0:24:490:24:52

away, in Westminster.

0:24:520:24:54

I would prefer to see some sector

deals done that are national,

0:24:540:24:56

but very specific to the different

sectors of our economy.

0:24:560:25:01

I think we can make

Cornwall's case within that.

0:25:010:25:05

And the minute we start breaking

the country up and every different

0:25:050:25:09

region wanting its own bespoke

scheme on immigration,

0:25:090:25:12

I think it will become far too

complex and then potentially more

0:25:120:25:15

open to abuse.

0:25:150:25:17

Cornwall voted to leave the EU but,

Leave or Remain, everyone

0:25:170:25:20

still wants a system that works.

0:25:200:25:24

I think we have an urban-based

government, we're a very rural

0:25:240:25:27

county, and I don't think the two

match up very well.

0:25:270:25:35

So maybe we will be put

on the backwater a little bit

0:25:350:25:38

and the MPs will only see us two

weeks a year when they go to Rock

0:25:380:25:42

on their summer holiday.

0:25:420:25:44

The trouble is, every sector, every

region thinks it has a special case.

0:25:440:25:50

Talks in Brussels aren't the only

complex negotiations ahead.

0:25:500:25:58

Helen Thomas.

0:25:580:25:59

Helen Thomas.

0:25:590:26:00

Tomorrow, the Parliamentary

and Health Service Ombudsman

0:26:000:26:02

will publish a report

into the treatment at the hands

0:26:020:26:04

of the NHS of a 19-year-old

woman back in 2012.

0:26:040:26:06

Averil Hart was suffering from

anorexia and was very underweight.

0:26:060:26:11

She had spent almost

a year as an in-patient

0:26:110:26:15

in an Eating Disorders Unit,

but had been discharged,

0:26:150:26:17

as she was about to go to college.

0:26:170:26:19

And then, five years ago today,

she collapsed in her room

0:26:190:26:22

at university, just as she was due

to undergo a medical review.

0:26:220:26:27

She died eight days later.

0:26:270:26:33

Her father, Nic, tonight told

us about his daughter.

0:26:330:26:38

Well, Averil was

an amazing daughter.

0:26:380:26:40

Wonderful person to be around.

0:26:400:26:41

She was really outgoing.

0:26:410:26:45

Erm, loved sports,

but loved literature.

0:26:450:26:52

And, erm, just a good,

fun girl to have in the family.

0:26:520:26:58

And, as parents, we were incredibly

proud of her and loved her to bits.

0:26:580:27:02

Nic Ward there.

0:27:020:27:03

He levelled a complaint against four

different NHS organisations,

0:27:030:27:05

for the way they had cared

or treated for Averil right

0:27:050:27:09

to the very end of her life,

and tomorrow's report is the result.

0:27:090:27:12

It's expected to find that

all those organisations did

0:27:120:27:15

fail her in some way

and that her death was avoidable.

0:27:150:27:19

And that adult eating disorders

should be treated as thoroughly

0:27:190:27:22

as adolescent problems are.

0:27:220:27:28

I'm joined by the author and mental

health campaigner Hope Virgo,

0:27:280:27:33

graduate Lucy Pearce,

and Joanna Silver -

0:27:330:27:35

Lead Therapist for Eating Disorders

at Nightingale Hospital.

0:27:350:27:40

Good evening. Joanne, just explain

what anorexia is.

Anorexia is a

0:27:400:27:48

mental health illness and patients

with anorexia will restrict their

0:27:480:27:53

eating and maintain a lower than

normal weight.

So it has a physical

0:27:530:28:00

manifestation, but it should

entirely be seen as a mental health

0:28:000:28:03

problem?

Absolutely, while on the

surface anorexia looks about food,

0:28:030:28:08

it is a way of expressing or

avoiding feelings. It is a very

0:28:080:28:13

serious illness that can have very

serious fracture.

How common is it

0:28:130:28:19

in a different age groups, what is

the difference between adult

0:28:190:28:22

incidences and teenage or younger?

It is primarily found within

0:28:220:28:27

teenagers and younger adults. But it

is much more common in adults and

0:28:270:28:34

even older adults than perhaps one

realises.

You have both been dealing

0:28:340:28:40

with or have dealt with this. Tell

us a little about your experience.

0:28:400:28:46

Lucy, you'll started before you were

a teenager.

I started suffering from

0:28:460:28:52

anorexia when I was about 11. It was

not diagnosed or dealt with until

0:28:520:28:58

13. And then I received some

treatment until about 15, 16. But

0:28:580:29:03

treatment is trailed off and was

never really followed up and was not

0:29:030:29:06

as helpful as I found it could have

been and I recovered when I was

0:29:060:29:10

about 19.

It was really your entire

teenage years absorbed with that.

0:29:100:29:13

How about you?

I developed it when I

was around 13 and I live with it

0:29:130:29:19

until 17. I hid it from friends,

family, everyone. You hit it for

0:29:190:29:26

that time? I don't think people

really understood anorexia when I

0:29:260:29:29

was younger.

You must have been

losing DUP three, did people say you

0:29:290:29:35

are looking too thin?

People notice

my body weight but I got good at

0:29:350:29:39

hiding it and I would cause scenes

at family eating times to avoid

0:29:390:29:43

eating. When I was 17, I was

admitted to a mental health hospital

0:29:430:29:48

because my heart nearly stopped and

I spent a year getting intensive.

In

0:29:480:29:52

patient.

0:29:520:29:57

You have had an experience of it as

an adult, because you are in your

0:29:570:30:02

20s now?

Yes, about a year and a

half ago I relapsed again. My

0:30:020:30:07

grandma passed away and I found it

difficult to deal with the grief and

0:30:070:30:10

the emotion that came with it and my

way of coping with it, for some

0:30:100:30:14

reason I went back to that anorexia

but the most frustrating thing was

0:30:140:30:18

that I knew what was happening and I

knew that I could get really sick

0:30:180:30:22

again and it would be easy to but I

didn't want to. So I referred myself

0:30:220:30:27

to the mental health hospital where

I live in Wandsworth but I wasn't

0:30:270:30:31

under way so I got sent away and had

to kind of deal with it on my own.

0:30:310:30:37

And the adult experience, apart from

the treatment which we will come to,

0:30:370:30:41

the feeling of anorexia as a young

adult, the same as a teenager or

0:30:410:30:46

does it manifest in a different way

at all?

I think it's similar. I

0:30:460:30:50

think what I found frustrating for

me is when people look at anorexics,

0:30:500:30:54

they assume they will be really,

really skinny, bony, but you can

0:30:540:30:58

have an eating disorder and not be

really underweight. You have that

0:30:580:31:03

anorexic mindset and that is just as

dangerous for you as being really

0:31:030:31:07

skinny.

Lucy, can you do anything to

explain to people, because most

0:31:070:31:12

people are not anorexic, so it's

very difficult to explain what the

0:31:120:31:17

mindset is. Is it possible to

describe?

I guess it would be the

0:31:170:31:21

same kind of thing, almost trying to

control your emotions through the

0:31:210:31:25

way you eat. For me, it was very

much controlling my life through

0:31:250:31:32

controlling my food, when I couldn't

control anything else around me. You

0:31:320:31:35

get into a strict mindset where you

think about yourself and it's

0:31:350:31:40

completely different to how

everybody else views you and what

0:31:400:31:43

everybody else sees but you don't

really be that. It's also about

0:31:430:31:47

lying to people about it, keeping it

hidden from other people and you

0:31:470:31:51

almost keep it hidden from yourself

as well without realising, I think,

0:31:510:31:54

because you don't admit it to

yourself.

Joanna, why do we think,

0:31:540:31:59

clearly a lot of teenagers recover

from it in adulthood. What is

0:31:590:32:08

difference between those who have it

in teenager had and those who

0:32:080:32:12

outgrow it, for want of a better

phrase?

I think something important

0:32:120:32:18

to emphasise his early intervention.

Someone with an eating disorder for

0:32:180:32:21

a long time and become harder to

treat as the disease becomes more

0:32:210:32:25

entrenched. I think early

intervention is really important and

0:32:250:32:30

also openness. People who have had

support, people asking them how they

0:32:300:32:34

are doing. Not just... Obviously

weight is vital to focus on and we

0:32:340:32:39

must think about the risk, but it

can't just be about their weight, it

0:32:390:32:45

must be about what is going on for

this person at this moment in time.

0:32:450:32:49

So support can be the difference

between recovering earlier and it

0:32:490:32:52

carrying on.

Hope, your experience

of adult treatment wasn't

0:32:520:32:57

particularly...

It was appalling.

But was it worse, is it appalling

0:32:570:33:06

for teenagers as well or would you

say it deteriorates?

I think it

0:33:060:33:11

deteriorates as you are an adult. I

think there's potentially less money

0:33:110:33:14

going into it and people don't

understand it as much. I think often

0:33:140:33:18

with eating disorders people think

it's a phase you go through and that

0:33:180:33:22

you should just eat and it's not as

easy as that. As an adult, I think

0:33:220:33:26

people don't have as much time for

you if you have an eating disorder.

0:33:260:33:30

They know teenagers go through

things and they expect you to sort

0:33:300:33:34

it out as an adult? What is the

therapy that works, particularly for

0:33:340:33:42

adults?

In terms of therapy, the

therapy we tend to use is cognitive

0:33:420:33:47

behaviour therapy for eating

disorders. That would be looking at

0:33:470:33:53

a person's relationship with food

and also what might be underlying

0:33:530:33:56

the eating disorder. Also, looking

at the family can be very important

0:33:560:34:03

and there is more and more, at the

moment, about involving carers in

0:34:030:34:08

treatment and thinking about how

carers can be supportive and helpful

0:34:080:34:12

in helping the sufferer recover.

All

of you, we have this report coming

0:34:120:34:17

out tomorrow which appears to show

the adult treatment is not good

0:34:170:34:20

enough and not on a par with

adolescent treatment. What does the

0:34:200:34:25

NHS need to do to change? Is it just

a case of more people? Doctors who

0:34:250:34:31

have more experience? What would you

change, Lucy?

I really think it's

0:34:310:34:36

the way people approach it and think

about it. I would have a different

0:34:360:34:40

way of people understanding it. I

found with my experience, they

0:34:400:34:46

didn't really seem to know what you

are going through or how to help you

0:34:460:34:51

or how to approach you. I think it

would be really helpful to have

0:34:510:34:55

specific clinics almost that are

more experienced in these things.

0:34:550:35:00

Yes, I think GPs may be need to be

looking for it a bit more. Eating

0:35:000:35:05

disorders can be very secretive.

There is a lot of shame about having

0:35:050:35:09

an eating disorder. Someone might

come to a GP with physical symptoms,

0:35:090:35:12

complaining of stomach pains and it

may actually be that an eating

0:35:120:35:17

disorder is going on. I think GPs

need to be on it, early

0:35:170:35:21

intervention, referring when

necessary.

I was going to say, also,

0:35:210:35:27

when people leave treatment at 18,

there is a bit of a dip. I didn't

0:35:270:35:34

get support when I left hospital and

I had been promised it as an

0:35:340:35:39

outpatient in adult services and

there needs to be something going

0:35:390:35:41

on.

A seamless transition. Thank you

all for sharing your stories.

0:35:410:35:47

For details of organisations

which offer advice and support

0:35:470:35:49

with eating disorders,

go online to bbc.co.uk/actionline.

0:35:490:35:54

The EU may have told Britain

that it is no longer eligible

0:35:580:36:01

to have a European Capital

of Culture after Brexit,

0:36:010:36:04

but we can still have our own

UK City of Culture -

0:36:040:36:07

and, tonight, the 2021

city was announced.

0:36:070:36:10

Hull enjoys the title at the moment,

but on the One Show this evening,

0:36:100:36:14

we heard who shall be taking over.

0:36:140:36:17

And the winner is...

0:36:180:36:20

Coventry!

0:36:200:36:22

APPLAUSE AND CHEERING

0:36:220:36:32

Four other cities

were in the running,

0:36:350:36:36

so commiserations to Swansea,

Stoke-upon-Trent,

0:36:360:36:39

Sunderland and Paisley -

which I think is, strictly

0:36:390:36:41

speaking, a town.

0:36:410:36:42

But let's not focus

on the runners-up.

0:36:420:36:49

Pauline Black, author and lead

singer of the band the selector

0:36:490:36:56

backed her city's bid. Do you think

this is a big night for Coventry?

It

0:36:560:37:04

is a superb night for Coventry. I

was there in 2015, talking to people

0:37:040:37:12

really early on and David Burbage

was one of the people at the

0:37:120:37:16

forefront of getting this whole

thing together and tonight to be at

0:37:160:37:19

the Belgrade Theatre here in

Coventry and just, you know, that

0:37:190:37:24

wonderful role when it came up that

we had won the bid was tremendous.

0:37:240:37:29

Is everybody in Coventry on board or

is it a small clique of those who

0:37:290:37:34

have applied? How big a deal is this

for the normal person?

Well, it is

0:37:340:37:39

very cold at the moment here in

Coventry. I am down by the cathedral

0:37:390:37:44

and it's pretty deserted at the

moment. But definitely people have

0:37:440:37:48

been out celebrating in pubs and

places, out on the street, and just

0:37:480:37:52

generally everyone turns up and

congratulate each other and things

0:37:520:37:57

like this. So I think it's something

which will grow. There's always an

0:37:570:38:01

element of people who are quite

suspicious about these things, they

0:38:010:38:06

think, what's it going to default

me? But I think this is something

0:38:060:38:10

everybody can get on board with.

I've been to hold quite recently and

0:38:100:38:16

seen what happened there and I think

something very, very similar can

0:38:160:38:20

happen in Coventry. There are so

many good things that happen in

0:38:200:38:23

Coventry anyway, quite apart from

anything else.

Give us an example.

0:38:230:38:28

We have one of the largest free

family festivals with huge bounce

0:38:280:38:32

coming here every year, the Godiva

Festival, for one thing. Across the

0:38:320:38:40

city, always, there is so much

diversity here. People getting

0:38:400:38:44

involved in other peoples cultures,

things like this. That's what it's

0:38:440:38:48

all about. It's not just the UK City

of Culture these days, I consider it

0:38:480:38:55

the UK city of multiculturalism and

Coventry is the bearer of that sign.

0:38:550:39:00

I suppose in cultural terms, what is

this about? Taking a city that has

0:39:000:39:06

great culture and rewarding mat or

trying to promote culture in a city

0:39:060:39:10

that needs more? Does Coventry need

more culture? Is that what is about?

0:39:100:39:18

No, I think it's about promoting

what we do have two the rest of the

0:39:180:39:21

country and the rest of the world.

It's something which is intrinsic to

0:39:210:39:27

Coventry but people don't know about

it. This old adage of being sent to

0:39:270:39:33

Coventry. Now you can get sent to

Coventry and really feel you are

0:39:330:39:37

going to be involved in something

and people will see things.

Pauline,

0:39:370:39:41

talus what success feels like. If

this goes well, how will we know?

0:39:410:39:47

What will it look like?

I think we

will know it has gone well when we

0:39:470:39:55

have inward investment, that is

certainly part of it, of businesses.

0:39:550:40:00

Money coming into the city to fund

other projects, young people's

0:40:000:40:06

projects in particular. That is what

I'm the greatest fan of. And also

0:40:060:40:12

the whole kind of history that

Coventry has of reinvention, of

0:40:120:40:18

reconciliation, of peace, all of

those kinds of things. I mean, I am

0:40:180:40:22

standing in front of one of the

greatest symbols Coventry, I guess,

0:40:220:40:28

the Coventry Cathedral, which was

bombed during the Second World War

0:40:280:40:31

and there's the old and they knew

and if anything embodies Coventry

0:40:310:40:36

and the Coventry spirit, I consider

it to be that.

You have sold it

0:40:360:40:40

well. Pauline, good luck and

congratulations.

Thanks very much.

0:40:400:40:44

Thank you very much.

0:40:440:40:48

That's about it from us,

but before we go, we've just been

0:40:480:40:51

talking about Coventry's artistic

and cultural legacy,

0:40:510:40:53

now let's actually hear it.

0:40:530:40:58

Here's Coventry's The Specials,

with Ghost Town -

0:40:580:41:00

which Coventry obviously now isn't!

0:41:000:41:02

Goodnight.

0:41:020:41:03

# This town, is coming

like a ghost town

0:41:030:41:08

# All the clubs have been

closed down

0:41:080:41:13

# This place, is coming

like a ghost town

0:41:140:41:19

# Bands won't play no more

0:41:200:41:25

# Too much fighting

on the dance floor

0:41:250:41:28

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