10/01/2018 Newsnight

Cameron tried hugging huskies.

May has a plan for plastic.

Ahead of the release

of their 25-year environmental plan

we ask, can the blues

really go green?

Or will environmental activism

always belong to the left?

I'm in the heart of the Chilterns,

the beautiful rolling hills on the

outskirts of London which lies at

the heart of the government's

dilemma of protecting the

environment while promoting economic

growth.

We speak to Stanley Johnson

and Caroline Lucas.

The hunger to know what voters think

has never been stronger or more

vital for the modern politician.

We went to Essex to

find out their views.

Kids are not respectable to adults.

They say, who are you talking to?

They have no respect for the

teacher, no respect at all.

What do voters tell

you about their real concerns

when they know it will never been

traced back to them?

And, it's two years

since David Bowie died.

Stephen Smith has been talking

to his personal photographer

who went on tour with him

in the '80s.

I could do a book of David laughing.

You mean shots of him roaring away?

Gas, he laughed on stage because he

did not have to play the thin White

Duke or Ziggy Stardust any more but

he laughed all the time offstage as

well. He wanted to spend his time

having fun.

Good evening.

Environmentalism has all

the hallmarks of a left wing cause -

the enlightened vanguard,

the fight against big corporations,

the endless virtue signalling

and the youthful warrior.

Which makes it a hard cause

for Conservatives to espouse.

Those on the right will tell

you it's about calmer things:

conservation,

safeguarding resources, equilibrium.

But the battle to convince voters

that Conservatives are the natural

champions of green issues will be

an uphill one.

It starts tomorrow when

the government releases

its 25-year plan on the environment.

It includes a plan to eliminate

all avoidable plastic waste

by the end of 2042 - by which time

the Prime Minister would be -

excuse the detail - 86 years old.

Is there anything more radical?

We will find that out tomorrow.

Will it really stand a chance

of making anyone think

this is a subject close

to the Tory heart?

We will debate in a moment

with Stanley Johnson,

whose latest encounter

with all things green

was in the Australian jungle.

He's also written extensively

on the environment.

And Caroline Lucas,

Britain's only Green MP.

First, Nick Watt.

Ugly. Terrifying. And with

heart-rending results. Our oceans

are being menaced by the modern

disposable consumer age.

Plastic,

now every year we dump around 8

million tonnes of it into the sea.

The blight of plastic waste will be

condemned tomorrow by Theresa May as

one of the great environmental

scourges of our time. An unlikely

coalition of the voice of middling

woodland and environmental activists

have helped inspire the central

element of the government's 25 year

plan for the environment. No doubt

with an eye on winning over younger

voters, Theresa May will pledge to

eliminate all avoidable plastic

waste by 2042. Urge supermarkets to

introduce plastic free aisles with

loose food on display. Extend the 5p

charge for carrier bags in England

to all retailers. Increase funding

for plastics innovation to improve

recycling. And use UK aid to help

developing nations reduce pollution

and tackle waste. Use of the land

will also be tackled in the speech

as Theresa May highlights the

creation of a New Forest in the

North of England. The prime list

will also talk about how people can

be better connected with the

environment. I am in the Chilterns,

beautiful rolling hills on the

outskirts of London, which like the

heart of the government's dilemma of

protecting the environment while

promoting economic growth. Behind me

is Chequers, the Prime Minister's

official country residence, which

she uses for walks in this area.

Over there and that Hill is the

planned HS2 high-speed rail link to

the north of England which has been

fiercely resisted by residents here,

who say it threatens this area of

outstanding natural beauty. The

tensions between the economy and an

arm and was put to the Prime

Minister in the Commons today by the

Chilterns MP -- the economy and the

environment. It is an issue felt

keenly by this local farmer who also

complained that mixed messages down

the decades from Whitehall.

It is

definitely a dilemma and it has been

a going on for generations. Back in

the 1960s it was government policy

to pull hedges out while since the

1970s it has been policy to plant

hedges. It was never a farmer's idea

to pull them out, it was a

government policy and we were told

to do it. Decisions need to be made

with good sound information and

knowledge and not on the whim as it

were.

The central challenge for

Theresa May in this speech is to

reclaim the environment

reclaim the environment for the

Tories, who admit they have had a

mixed message in recent decades in

promoting their green credentials.

But the Prime Minister will say that

conserving resources lies at the

heart of Conservative principles.

Preserving finances to assure debt

is not passed on to future

generations, and preserving natural

resources to ensure this generation

leaves the planet in a better

condition for future generations.

This is about reusing, recycling and

minimising the amount of natural

resources we are using. It comes

down to fundamental conservative

philosophy, one that attracted me to

the Conservative Party initially

stewardship. It is about doing stuff

today that we in our lifetime may

never see the benefit of, but others

will. It is that long-term view.

That is why I like the idea that

this generation for the first time

leaves the state of the environment

in a better state than that which we

founded.

The problem is that it

often comes far too late and they

will spend a long time pooh-poohing

the science about whether the

destruction of the environment is

happening a lot and often they are

act after public opinion has finally

swayed and indeed after the

environment or damage has already

happened. If the Conservative Party

really wants to earn some green

credentials, it has to be a lot more

proactive about tackling these

issues and for the environmental

damage occurs.

In rural areas, life can sometimes

move at a sedate pace, but the

passions stirred on how to protect

our environment only become more

heated with time.

Nick Watt reporting.

Well, I'm now joined by two

of the leading lights

of the environmental movement.

Stanley Johnson is a former

Conservative MEP and has been

an environmental campaigner

for over 50 years.

Caroline Lucas is co-leader

of the Green Party

and the party's only MP.

Very nice to have you both here.

Caroline, is there anything from

what you have seen so far that you

would disagree with? Action on

plastics, new trees, farmers

subsidies based on what they give

back, there is very little that you

disagree with I am assuming?

There

is little I disagree with so far.

The devil will be in the detail and

whether there is legislative weight

behind the proposals. What we need

to see in the plan tomorrow is a

real commitment to an environment

act which is the thing that would

make sure all these aspirations are

properly turned into policy. Don't

forget, we have been here before

with the Conservatives adopting a

nice green sheen. We had David

Cameron hugging his Huskies but when

he was in office he went from

hugging huskies to culling badgers.

We know there is a detoxification

process going on here. We know the

Tories have had some polling which

tells them they need to more

compassionate. This is a way to do

that. If they are really serious

there are two things they need to

look for. One is the environment act

with proper targets, timetables and

legislative weight, and the other is

to make sure there is action on

climate change as well. You can talk

about plastic as much as you like

and plastic is a serious

problem to marine animals, but if

you're really serious about the

health of the oceans, it is climate

change which is warming the oceans,

leaching our corals which is causing

mammals to die. The problem is the

Tories look at the environment in a

compartmentalised way. Next week we

may be talking about a whole new

fracking industry the government

wants to unleash. If they do that,

it will completely undermine their

plan.

Stanley, it does look very

ambitious. In 25 years Theresa May

will not be held to account.

2042 is

a long, long way away. I think we

have to assume we get quite a lot of

action much before that. On the

plastics front it is good she is

doing that. I think it is vital that

she takes the comments with you.

How

can it be good to say we will get

rid of that in 25 years?

I think we

have to take a very advanced view.

So she is not doing enough on

plastics?

At the moment we are doing

plastic bags. She is planning to

have now a consultation on single

use plastic bottles. Tremendously

important. I take Caroline's point.

This is not necessarily a left right

issue. The Conservatives honestly,

in 1969, I was the Conservative

officer on the environment. We did

take it seriously and by the way, we

won the election in 1970, so I think

they were right.

That you agree you

cannot divorce climate change

fracking from what you are trying to

do for 25 years on pollution?

The

problem is every time Caroline and I

meet together we agree with each

other.

You agree with me.

Do you

think his politics are a barrier to

helping the environment, or do you

think Stanley Johnson and the

Conservative Party can solve it?

Stanley has a real reputation for

having done excellent work on the

environment in the past. Where I

would disagree now is he has done

this extraordinary U-turn on this

position on Brexit. He used to be

alongside me, he set up

environmentalist for Europe, he is

now adopting Brexit. If he does this

it will massively undermined the

environment.

Hold on, what I am

assuming tomorrow in this speech

that Mrs May will make, I think part

of the environment plan is to take

over into EU law the whole raft of

EU environmental legislation. And I

think she's going to say that she

will have an enforcement agency to

do what the commissioner and ECJ...

We had a chance to vote on that. I

put an amendment and it was not

voted on.

We started talking about

the ideology of the environment and

who had a right to it? Would you

agree that the biggest friend to the

environment is the Daily Mail. They

did all the work against microbeads,

the plastic bag tax, sea pollution.

This is tomorrow's headline. They

have done more to help the cause

arguably than the Greens have.

You

are going at too far. I take your

point that they do some are good

consumer campaigns.

But you have to

go to the middle ground.

You have to

do both. You have to get people

aboard with understandable specific

campaigns but you have to address

the structural difficulties as well.

For as long as the Daily Mail and

the Conservatives are promoting more

and more of the same kind of

economic growth, we will not have

the systemic change we need. We have

to change the way we do business.

If

the Conservatives had to choose

between economic growth and environ

mental concerns, you know economic

growth would always come first?

One

of the problems in this whole area

is one of the reasons we are forcing

ourselves down the economic growth

through it if they constantly

expanding population of this country

and you cannot ignore that. We are

going up to 70 million with 80

million in prospect. We should aim

for stability as far as pollution is

concerned and stability as far as

economic growth is concerned. Years

ago I wrote that and I think it

needs to happen.

But we need to look

at some practical things right now.

HS2, when push comes to shove, when

economic gains put on one side and

the environment on the other, it is

the economy which always wins out.

There is something that planting

more trees, that is great. HS2 will

threaten 35 agent woodlands. There

is no joined up thinking.

I think

one of my sons is responsible for

HS2.

Have a word with him.

We can

take a leading role internationally,

forests, plastic pollution, climate

change and I would put in wildlife,

biodiversity. Crucial areas.

Thank

you both very much.

How well do politicians

know the electorate?

And do voters really

speak their minds when asked

about their concerns?

To get a better understanding

of peoples worries and insecurities

one think tank, Demos,

tried to take the pulse

of people in England -

paying particular attention to white

over fifties voters -

in areas that have undergone

the most significant

cultural and economic dislocation

over the past three decades.

Instead of asking responders

to tick boxes, it took down

quotes and comments,

word for word - inviting people

to answer honestly and anonymously

without fear of what some called

'the need for political

correctness'.

We'll ask if their words represent

legitimate economic grievance,

wistful nostalgia or a failure

to engage with modern Britain

in a moment.

First, John Sweeney has been gauging

reaction to the report's content

on Canvey Island in Essex.

Where better to discuss the latest

trends in British society than on

the Riviera, the Essex Riviera, that

is, and nowhere more lovely than

Canvey Island? So, this think tank

called Demos which is full of lardy

Dar types has had a go at people

like me, white and over 55, you

could call us pale and stale if not

necessarily male. Our views are a

mixed bag, some of them perhaps a

bit too miserable worrying about the

decline of Christianity, worrying

about do-gooders. On the other hand,

what's wrong with thinking about

family? What's wrong with believing

that you should respect people?

We

moved out of London into housing,

council housing from the old Kent

Road.

They have known each other

virtually their entire adult lives.

By the way, I use sisters or just

mates?

Friends for the last 50

years.

50 years, when did you meet?

We met when I was waitressing in a

nightclub.

I was about 18 when we

met in London because we lived in

London.

Was life better then?

Easier.

Yeah. I think it was easier,

your husband went to work. I just

think it was easier.

I don't think

you wanted for much, your main thing

in life was that you had a roof over

your head and your kids were at

school and had a job when they came

out of school. That was the main

thing then.

The Demos report quoted

dozens of people across the country.

Here is one. What were you

respectful of them that you see kids

are not respectful of now?

Things

get handed... If you are sitting

around the table, which we do, and

use it all round the table, you have

not just got the adults around the

table, you've got the children as

well, so you are kind of passing on

knowledge, respect...

And love.

Caring about one another and showing

them which way to go.

Sitting on this bench dedicated to

his late wife we came across Brian.

Too many do-gooders, our group think

that. Do you think that?

I'm not

sure on that one about do-gooders. I

don't meet many in my life. I meet a

lot of people who are helpful in

many ways, you know, in terms of the

friendship I've had through what's

happened to me. I've had some very

good friends. Would you call them

do-gooders? I don't think so.

You

can't go to Canvey Island without

going down the booze. The survey

said older whites were not great at

naming politicians. True?

Neymar

politician? Margaret Thatcher.

She's

dead, Neymar living one.

Are any of

them living? -- name a politician.

Steve?

Theresa May.

You are the

intellectual, name another one.

Tony

Blair, David Cameron.

UL listing

half of the Cabinet, well, Theresa

May is in it the others are out --

you are listing. Why are your

grandkids less optimistic about

their future is then you were at

their age?

One thing comes down to

the immigration. Parellis jobs for

our kids anymore. That's what I see

anyway. -- there are less jobs.

What

about buying a house?

The same

thing.

Are people more respectful of

parity now all before?

They are less

respectful of authority, since they

took the cane away at school,

teachers are not allowed to punish

children. Parents now seem to let

their kids get away with anything.

Years ago I had more respect for my

parents. I got up to loads of

skulduggery but I never took it

home, it never went to my door. I

had more respect for my mum and dad,

whereas the kids nowadays don't seem

to care, they have no respect for

anything.

As far as capturing the

views of Canvey Island was

concerned, the survey was spot on.

John Sweeney there.

We're joined by Sophie Gaston

who is the Acting Director

of the Demos think tank

which is behind today's report.

Also with us is Danny Lockwood,

the publisher of The Press

newspaper, which covers Dewsbury

and Batley in West Yorkshiure

newspaper, which covers Dewsbury

and Batley in West Yorkshire,

and Areeq Chowdhury

who is the Chief Executive

of WebRoots Democracy,

a digital democracy organisation.

Lovely to have you here. If I can

start with you, Sophie, from what

you've heard from Canvey Island

today, does that reflect the sort of

voices you are putting together in

that report?

Absolutely. The key

theme that came out of all of the

focus groups we did was a sense that

Britain is fundamentally on the

wrong track and that people have

really utterly lost faith in the

capacity of politicians to shape and

improve their lives. For people to

day life feel stressful, it feels

precarious, and a real sense of

mourning around things that have

been lost.

Danny, I'm going to come

to you, this idea of the wrong

track. If we could pull up these

quotes, these are verbatim quotes,

they don't necessarily all read very

obviously but let's just pull up one

of those quotes now. There are too

many do-gooders around. We saw a bit

of that in the film, didn't we? To

tell you what you can't do rather

than tell you what you can do. What

does that say to you?

That speaks to

me right off the top of the nanny

state really. But it all lies within

this political correctness that is

also kind of invading every element

of life. I'm not surprised old

people feel as though they are

getting blamed for getting old, they

have sustained the NHS for years but

they suddenly feel they are a burden

on it. And I think when they are

used to having a sense of community

and a place in life, they disappear.

When you say political correctness,

what does that mean?

I can only go

to my experience and say we have

seen radical socioeconomic cultural

shifts in our town and community has

gone and it's been replaced by, if

you like, the diktats of whether it

is political or judicial or local

authority, an administration that

seems to elevate, real or imagined

minorities, its values and rights

above there is. I think they have

been told, and they are sick of

being told, that their values and

their traditions and their cultural

heritage is worthless.

Areeq, do you

recognise that as being a corrosive

element?

I wish we lived in a

politically correct society to don't

think we did I believe political

correctness as having basic respect

for one another. We need to talk

about this as political correctness

gone mad and it just needs to be

political correctness. I read in the

report that some people were talking

about how we are not really a

Christian country anymore. I wish we

lived in a country that practised

Christian values, love thy

neighbour, do unto others as you

would have them do to you. That's

what political correctness is about.

Political correctness, when you boil

it down, is about freedom of speech.

Personally, I think freedom of

speech doesn't mean that you can

simply say whatever the EXPLETIVE

you want about something without

there being consequences.

While we

talk about the freedom of speech I

must apologise to our viewers.

That

perfectly illustrates my point I say

something and there is a consequence

and my reason for saying that is

people are annoyed about political

correctness, but what it's about as

you are free to say what you like in

a society.

Isn't that the point that

these people don't feel they have a

voice.

You can any newspaper in

society and that is freedom of

speech but if you see something I

deemed to be racist or bigoted I am

free to call you out on that, that's

the consequence, I can call out

sexism, homophobia, Islamophobia...

It is deeper than that, that is kind

of almost an intellectual

examination of it. These people are

talking about their real lives,

their real experiences, about their

community is being broken up, about

the landscape that their families

have known for generations and

generations being supplanted.

There

are changes throughout history.

There is no monopoly on British

society.

In this country in a period

of time that we are witnessing,

these people are bearing witness to

it, they have a right to be affected

by it and feel like they are not

represented.

I don't want to break

up the conversation but I want to

bring up the next quote, this is

about cultural identity. If we can

just pull this one up, which says my

husband's got a van and it's got an

English flag and he actually got

pulled up the other day by somebody

and they said, why have you got an

English flag on your van? I'm

reading the rest of it here. Sophie,

to bring you in, is this part of a

bigger conversation about the flag

and about patriotism over jingoism,

or discomfort with that? What did

you hear?

There was a huge amount of

discussion about English cultural

and national identity and it wasn't

just a flag, it was also St George's

Day, all of these different things,

and I think lots of citizens were

telling us that we feel that the

political classes have branded these

as somehow racist, or a symbol of

intolerance, or exclusion, and then

they are thinking, hang on, we have

to constantly adapt and welcome all

these other nationalities, and what

we start to see here is cultural

pluralism creating this kind of

zero-sum game.

Let me start on this

one then if I can with you, Areeq.

Do you find the St George's flag

makes you uncomfortable?

It depends

who is waving it. It has not been

made racist, by the way, by

immigrants or politicians, it's been

made racist by the likes of the EDL

and BMP. That's because those are

racist organisations that use that

flag as their brand and when it

comes to what you see on TV, apart

from the World Cup, you will see the

England fired at an EDL

demonstration on the news -- BMP.

I

have a real problem with that

because I think this is a real

symbol branded by people like Emily

Thornberry, when she ridiculed and

England football supporter in

2014...

Her career has not suffered for it,

has it?

She apologised for it.

It is

a symbol of the wider problem that

where we have schools now with the

educational establishment is

brainwashing our kids that this

isn't a country that you can be very

proud of.

No school is brainwashing

their kids...

Would you feel able to

put a flag up in the window?

In my

case it would be a Yorkshire flag. I

wouldn't have a problem about that.

I'm proud of my county, my country,

and the United Kingdom.

You don't

feel that part has been shut down?

I

would do it just the awkward but I

would know there be people... They

would be people passing judgment on

me because I was showing a symbol of

patriotism. I find that that really

is horrific.

You should address the

issue, which is people have taken

that flag and turned it into meaning

something, to some people it means

racism, that's the real issue,

whereas in society we see people

twisting that into these immigrants

are coming here at changing our

culture identity but that is not

true.

I'm going to bring in another

quote now, about immigration. I will

start with Sophie to put this into

context for us. The immigrants that

got in now, they are not working, or

they are working for their money and

sending it off. Does that fit into

the kind of quotes and feedback you

were getting?

Absolutely. We saw

very few expressions of overt racial

prejudice in these focus groups,

even when a space was created, save

space, for people to express those

views. There just wasn't that kind

of feeling. But what there was was a

very strong expression of what I

would call welfare chauvinism. The

idea that some people should have

access to our social state and

others shouldn't and the people who

have the access, it should be owned

by their social and economic

contribution.

Danny.

I enjoyed this

report because it felt like Sophie

was listening to me and my buddies

at the bar in the pub. But on this

one I don't think anything like this

risks presenting cliches and

stereotypes, and I kind of see that

as one of those. What came out of

the report that I really liked was

the fairness that was identified

quite broadly among people.

Do you

think that is not fair, do you hear

that quote and think it is not fair?

I can see why that would grab a

headline and be picked out but I

don't think the report says that's

even typical. I realised a finding

that these people from a specific

demographic who are not overtly

racist, and I do think that fairness

and get on with it attitude that

shone through in the report is

absolutely the generation of people

that I still respect.

When you hear

the immigration argument, do you

think it is about race, or do you

think it can be about you can --

economic chauvinism?

I think it is

racist. When it comes to this, this

is a caricature of what Britain is

like. People are sold an idea,

normally through the media, about

immigrants coming here taking jobs

and housing at the reality is

completely different. Lots of

immigrants work hard and are doing

jobs. My whole family are working in

the NHS and my brother is a junior

doctor. The other point about this

that we cannot cover in this

segment, I find the irony of Britain

being annoyed about people coming to

their country and taking their

resources when the richness of this

country is built on centuries of the

British Empire going to other

countries and ignoring borders,

ignoring people, taking money.

There

we go, let's drag up 250 years of

Empire.

Why should we?

And beat the

people who I think made this country

great.

The British Empire?

The very

welcoming and safe place on the

whole for migrants.

The British

Empire that killed millions of

people.

We will all go back and

apologise for everything all the way

back.

This is a key part. You cannot

just ignore. If you want to be

magician is now the culture

identity.

Are we talking about

politicians trying to re-engage with

a whole swathe of the country that

has disengaged and thinks all

politicians are self-serving liars?

That's what this report tells us. I

actually think the politicians are

missing a trick.

What to do politicians do with this

now? You can hear clear divide

between how people perceive the same

sort of grievances or injustices. If

you were a politician saying how do

we make them both happy?

What was

really striking for me is there was

a lot of conversation around

intergenerational warfare between

the young and the old, this primary

skills in our society. I think what

this shows is even amongst the older

generation, there are very clear

conflicts here. There are the people

who are sort of willing, if not

enthusiastic about embracing change

and handing over to the next

generation, and then there are the

people who continue to see

themselves as the dominant and

authentic voice of British values in

the heart of Britain and are very

actively resistant to change. I

think it is the political decisions

about whether to favour or to try

and reconcile these two or to take

leadership to take us in a

completely different direction which

will ultimately define where we go.

Or at least recognise the concerns.

Recognise the concerns that it

undermines the issue when the media

have put the blame on immigrants.

I

think that suits your agenda.

We

will have you back for the next

report. And even after the

watershed, I have to apologise and

say we're not allowed to swear

unless I warn you first.

Over five billion journeys

are made by bus each year.

By contrast only around 250 million

journeys are made on trains.

But in terms of political fallout -

even though most of our rail system

has long been privatised -

when the trains fail it's

the government that has

to justify its handling

of the network.

It got it in the neck today

from the National Audit Office

over the way it awarded

the Govia Thameslink franchise.

It comes soon after the Transport

Secretary Chris Grayling had

to answer questions over

the financial arrangements

of the East Coast franchise.

Today he said the companies

running the route are not

being given a bailout.

Despite the claims of the party

of the said this is not a bailout.

There is no viable legal

mechanism through which

I can extract any

more money from them.

My department is preparing

contingency plans, as we do not

believe the franchise will be

financially viable through to 2020.

I've clearly got a duty to do

that for passengers.

When we reach a conclusion

to that work I will come

back to this house

and make a statement.

So, what's going on on the railways?

Our business editor

Helen Thomas is here.

The East Coast specifically

referenced today. What happened?

Last November, the government said

the east Coast franchise which is a

joint venture between Stagecoach and

Virgin Group Woodend in 2020 which

is three years earlier than planned.

Stagecoach said they had over bid on

this contract. They had been too

aggressive and so critics have

called this a bailout and said it

should have been nationalised. The

government dispute that. They

concede the company have got their

numbers wrong because big

infrastructure and improvements have

not come through as expected, but

they say they will take 165 million

of the companies which was the full

guarantee that was baked into this

contract. It has set up an almighty

debate about rail franchising and

whether it is working at all.

In

terms of other franchises, where

does this leave the government?

Huge

amounts of debate about that in the

industry. Rail

industry. Rail passenger numbers

have flat lined. They rose above 4%

on average each year since the

mid-90s and they flat lined in 2016

and the latest numbers show them

falling. The question is have other

companies got their numbers wrong?

Industry experts have said three

other franchises could face

difficulties, Northern, Greater

Anglia and trans-Pennine. Those

awarded around the 201516 period,

very competitive eating and before

this downturn. The company we have

spoken to, Abellio, the Dutch

company behind Greater Anglia say

they are confident of meeting their

targets and all three companies say

they are stressing and modernising

and adding capacity. There is a huge

ideological debate going on here.

Labour says privatisation has

failed. Industry would say passenger

traffic has doubled since the 90s.

In reality, these are not private

companies, these are huge government

contracts with lots of constipated

requirements in them. The question

is, who bears the risk when things

go wrong and that will always be

controversial.

Thank you.

At the time of his death -

two years ago today -

David Bowie was collaborating

on a book including many previously

unseen photographs

from his hugely successful

'Serious Moonlight' tour of 1983.

Bowie played to packed stadiums

around the world on the back

of his hit album Let's Dance.

And following him, both on-stage

and off, was British

photographer Denis O'Regan.

O'Regan's putting together a limited

edition boxed-set of 1,000 or so

photographs plus other

memorabilia, called Ricochet

for sale to collectors and Bowie

completists at a suitably starry

price of £3000.

A more affordable paperback

will also appear.

Denis O'Regan has been

telling Stephen Smith

about the thrills -

and the stills - of life on the road

with David Bowie.

MUSIC: Let's Dance

He would actively

want me to photograph

him the whole time.

We all queued up

for our bags and David

had his trolley, and of course

I didn't take any pictures

thinking this is boring.

But he and his PA said I think

you should be capturing this.

This isn't how you

normally see David.

I realised really quickly

that they wanted me to capture

virtually everything that he did.

MUSIC: Let's Dance

# Let's dance put on your red shoes

and dance the blues #

Arriving at the airport

surrounded as usual.

Denis O'Regan went round

the world with David Bowie.

Private jet, 5-star hotels, tough

job but somebody had to do it.

He was photographer by appointment

to the star on his all-conquering

tour of 1983.

MUSIC: Let's Dance

# Let's sway under the moonlight,

this serious moonlight #

The pair of them

already had history.

I met David outside Olympic Studios

in Barnes, West London

when he was recording Diamond Dogs.

And I was working in a newspaper

shop because I was still a teenager,

working in a newspaper shop across

the road.

And some girls came into the shop

giggling and asking to

buy notebooks.

So...

For his autograph?

To get his autograph.

So I asked around and found

out that who it was.

So I went home, got my camera

and zipped back, got my uncle's

camera, actually, zipped back

and got some pictures of him walking

into the studio, and

then it was kind of,

hello, you should work for NME sort

of thing and that was our first

exchange.

# You've got your mother

in a whirl

# She's not sure if you're

a boy or a girl #

Can I sit down here?

Yeah, sure.

No, I can't.

I'll sit here then.

About two days ago EMI Records

phoned me up in Australia

and said, would I like to

take a 25 hour flight

back and come and sit in a room with

75 journalists?

Over the last year I've completed an

album and single called Let's Dance,

and tomorrow tickets go on sale in

the UK, and in the next few days in

the rest of Europe for concert

performances.

MUSIC: Modern Love

# I catch a paper boy

# But things don't really change

# I'm standing in the wind

# But I never wave bye-bye #

Bowie didn't seem to mind

what pictures O'Regan took on

his Serious Moonlight tour.

He was more concerned

about the ones he missed.

The tour manager says,

"David wants to see you."

So I said OK, so I wander

down to the dressing room

and as I opened

up the dressing room

door David was facing me

and the make-up girl

was behind me

and I saw from her look that I was

obviously in trouble for something.

And David said, "Did you get it?"

And I said, "well, get what?"

And he said, "Get out of my sight."

So I still didn't

know what I'd missed.

Of course, it turned out he'd got

hugely mobbed at the backstage door

and I wasn't there.

To make up for that actual

instance, David rented a car

and organised a picnic and drove me

and two other friends out for a

picnic that he'd arranged in a

wildlife nature reserve.

The man off-stage was very different

to the persona that I'd seen of

David Bowie on stage, which was very

cool and detached, which is the very

opposite of David.

He's very warm, funny,

engaging, self-deprecating.

He laughed a huge, huge amount.

Is that anywhere near accurate?

Absolutely nowhere near accurate.

Can you give us a more

accurate figure?

Of course not!

I could do a book of David laughing.

You mean shots of him?

Yeah.

Roaring away?

Yeah.

He laughed, onstage

he laughed a lot because he

didn't have to play the Thin White

Duke or Ziggy Stardust anymore.

So, he was allowed

to laughed onstage.

But he laughed all the time

off stage as well.

It's what he really

wanted to spend his time

doing, was having fun.

It was one of Bowie's

biggest tours in support of

a massive hit record.

But is it true that he didn't

care for it overmuch?

He was really, really proud of it.

He was proud of the album, proud of

the tour, proud of the show,

and also it made him hugely rich.

In the context then

when he looked back and

put that into the context of

everything else he did it obviously

wasn't as mean and dirty and culty

as some of the other things

he'd done.

And to then look back and call

it his Phil Collins period.

Is that what he described it as?

Yeah, later on.

20 years later it suddenly

became his Phil Collins period.

But at the time it was his peak.

I think now in a world

where everything is

so visual it's inconceivable that

you become a star without the visual

aspect, it's perhaps hard for us

to recognise that when Bowie started

in the late 60s that this was less

of a concept and he was very,

very early on to that idea of fusing

the visual and the music.

He knew how important image was.

MUSIC: Lazarus

# Just like that bluebird #

Once so accessible, the star became

more reclusive in latter

years, following health problems.

But O'Regan said he never stopped

wanting to be David Bowie.

He'd made mistakes but

he learned from those mistakes,

and some of those mistakes

and less popular parts of

his career became part of that

tapestry, part of that timeline.

I think he was happy with that.

I think he was very happy

with being David Bowie.

But he wanted to be

David Jones as well.

It's very difficult

for someone as famous as

him and so distinctive, but he

managed to disappear when he wanted

to disappear.

MUSIC: Lazarus

# Ain't that just like me #

Steven Smith and David Bowie who

died two years ago today. That is

all we have time for tonight. Good

night from all of us.