10/01/2018 Newsnight


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10/01/2018

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis.


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Cameron tried hugging huskies.

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May has a plan for plastic.

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Ahead of the release

of their 25-year environmental plan

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we ask, can the blues

really go green?

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Or will environmental activism

always belong to the left?

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I'm in the heart of the Chilterns,

the beautiful rolling hills on the

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outskirts of London which lies at

the heart of the government's

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dilemma of protecting the

environment while promoting economic

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growth.

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We speak to Stanley Johnson

and Caroline Lucas.

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The hunger to know what voters think

has never been stronger or more

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vital for the modern politician.

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We went to Essex to

find out their views.

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Kids are not respectable to adults.

They say, who are you talking to?

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They have no respect for the

teacher, no respect at all.

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What do voters tell

you about their real concerns

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when they know it will never been

traced back to them?

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And, it's two years

since David Bowie died.

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Stephen Smith has been talking

to his personal photographer

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who went on tour with him

in the '80s.

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I could do a book of David laughing.

You mean shots of him roaring away?

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Gas, he laughed on stage because he

did not have to play the thin White

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Duke or Ziggy Stardust any more but

he laughed all the time offstage as

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well. He wanted to spend his time

having fun.

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Good evening.

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Environmentalism has all

the hallmarks of a left wing cause -

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the enlightened vanguard,

the fight against big corporations,

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the endless virtue signalling

and the youthful warrior.

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Which makes it a hard cause

for Conservatives to espouse.

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Those on the right will tell

you it's about calmer things:

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conservation,

safeguarding resources, equilibrium.

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But the battle to convince voters

that Conservatives are the natural

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champions of green issues will be

an uphill one.

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It starts tomorrow when

the government releases

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its 25-year plan on the environment.

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It includes a plan to eliminate

all avoidable plastic waste

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by the end of 2042 - by which time

the Prime Minister would be -

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excuse the detail - 86 years old.

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Is there anything more radical?

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We will find that out tomorrow.

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Will it really stand a chance

of making anyone think

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this is a subject close

to the Tory heart?

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We will debate in a moment

with Stanley Johnson,

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whose latest encounter

with all things green

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was in the Australian jungle.

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He's also written extensively

on the environment.

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And Caroline Lucas,

Britain's only Green MP.

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First, Nick Watt.

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Ugly. Terrifying. And with

heart-rending results. Our oceans

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are being menaced by the modern

disposable consumer age.

Plastic,

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now every year we dump around 8

million tonnes of it into the sea.

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The blight of plastic waste will be

condemned tomorrow by Theresa May as

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one of the great environmental

scourges of our time. An unlikely

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coalition of the voice of middling

woodland and environmental activists

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have helped inspire the central

element of the government's 25 year

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plan for the environment. No doubt

with an eye on winning over younger

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voters, Theresa May will pledge to

eliminate all avoidable plastic

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waste by 2042. Urge supermarkets to

introduce plastic free aisles with

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loose food on display. Extend the 5p

charge for carrier bags in England

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to all retailers. Increase funding

for plastics innovation to improve

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recycling. And use UK aid to help

developing nations reduce pollution

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and tackle waste. Use of the land

will also be tackled in the speech

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as Theresa May highlights the

creation of a New Forest in the

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North of England. The prime list

will also talk about how people can

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be better connected with the

environment. I am in the Chilterns,

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beautiful rolling hills on the

outskirts of London, which like the

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heart of the government's dilemma of

protecting the environment while

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promoting economic growth. Behind me

is Chequers, the Prime Minister's

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official country residence, which

she uses for walks in this area.

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Over there and that Hill is the

planned HS2 high-speed rail link to

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the north of England which has been

fiercely resisted by residents here,

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who say it threatens this area of

outstanding natural beauty. The

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tensions between the economy and an

arm and was put to the Prime

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Minister in the Commons today by the

Chilterns MP -- the economy and the

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environment. It is an issue felt

keenly by this local farmer who also

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complained that mixed messages down

the decades from Whitehall.

It is

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definitely a dilemma and it has been

a going on for generations. Back in

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the 1960s it was government policy

to pull hedges out while since the

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1970s it has been policy to plant

hedges. It was never a farmer's idea

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to pull them out, it was a

government policy and we were told

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to do it. Decisions need to be made

with good sound information and

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knowledge and not on the whim as it

were.

The central challenge for

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Theresa May in this speech is to

reclaim the environment

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reclaim the environment for the

Tories, who admit they have had a

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mixed message in recent decades in

promoting their green credentials.

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But the Prime Minister will say that

conserving resources lies at the

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heart of Conservative principles.

Preserving finances to assure debt

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is not passed on to future

generations, and preserving natural

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resources to ensure this generation

leaves the planet in a better

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condition for future generations.

This is about reusing, recycling and

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minimising the amount of natural

resources we are using. It comes

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down to fundamental conservative

philosophy, one that attracted me to

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the Conservative Party initially

stewardship. It is about doing stuff

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today that we in our lifetime may

never see the benefit of, but others

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will. It is that long-term view.

That is why I like the idea that

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this generation for the first time

leaves the state of the environment

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in a better state than that which we

founded.

The problem is that it

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often comes far too late and they

will spend a long time pooh-poohing

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the science about whether the

destruction of the environment is

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happening a lot and often they are

act after public opinion has finally

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swayed and indeed after the

environment or damage has already

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happened. If the Conservative Party

really wants to earn some green

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credentials, it has to be a lot more

proactive about tackling these

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issues and for the environmental

damage occurs.

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In rural areas, life can sometimes

move at a sedate pace, but the

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passions stirred on how to protect

our environment only become more

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heated with time.

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Nick Watt reporting.

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Well, I'm now joined by two

of the leading lights

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of the environmental movement.

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Stanley Johnson is a former

Conservative MEP and has been

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an environmental campaigner

for over 50 years.

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Caroline Lucas is co-leader

of the Green Party

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and the party's only MP.

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Very nice to have you both here.

Caroline, is there anything from

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what you have seen so far that you

would disagree with? Action on

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plastics, new trees, farmers

subsidies based on what they give

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back, there is very little that you

disagree with I am assuming?

There

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is little I disagree with so far.

The devil will be in the detail and

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whether there is legislative weight

behind the proposals. What we need

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to see in the plan tomorrow is a

real commitment to an environment

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act which is the thing that would

make sure all these aspirations are

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properly turned into policy. Don't

forget, we have been here before

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with the Conservatives adopting a

nice green sheen. We had David

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Cameron hugging his Huskies but when

he was in office he went from

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hugging huskies to culling badgers.

We know there is a detoxification

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process going on here. We know the

Tories have had some polling which

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tells them they need to more

compassionate. This is a way to do

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that. If they are really serious

there are two things they need to

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look for. One is the environment act

with proper targets, timetables and

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legislative weight, and the other is

to make sure there is action on

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climate change as well. You can talk

about plastic as much as you like

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and plastic is a serious

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problem to marine animals, but if

you're really serious about the

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health of the oceans, it is climate

change which is warming the oceans,

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leaching our corals which is causing

mammals to die. The problem is the

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Tories look at the environment in a

compartmentalised way. Next week we

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may be talking about a whole new

fracking industry the government

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wants to unleash. If they do that,

it will completely undermine their

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plan.

Stanley, it does look very

ambitious. In 25 years Theresa May

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will not be held to account.

2042 is

a long, long way away. I think we

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have to assume we get quite a lot of

action much before that. On the

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plastics front it is good she is

doing that. I think it is vital that

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she takes the comments with you.

How

can it be good to say we will get

0:10:010:10:07

rid of that in 25 years?

I think we

have to take a very advanced view.

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So she is not doing enough on

plastics?

At the moment we are doing

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plastic bags. She is planning to

have now a consultation on single

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use plastic bottles. Tremendously

important. I take Caroline's point.

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This is not necessarily a left right

issue. The Conservatives honestly,

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in 1969, I was the Conservative

officer on the environment. We did

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take it seriously and by the way, we

won the election in 1970, so I think

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they were right.

That you agree you

cannot divorce climate change

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fracking from what you are trying to

do for 25 years on pollution?

The

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problem is every time Caroline and I

meet together we agree with each

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other.

You agree with me.

Do you

think his politics are a barrier to

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helping the environment, or do you

think Stanley Johnson and the

0:11:100:11:12

Conservative Party can solve it?

Stanley has a real reputation for

0:11:120:11:15

having done excellent work on the

environment in the past. Where I

0:11:150:11:19

would disagree now is he has done

this extraordinary U-turn on this

0:11:190:11:24

position on Brexit. He used to be

alongside me, he set up

0:11:240:11:28

environmentalist for Europe, he is

now adopting Brexit. If he does this

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it will massively undermined the

environment.

Hold on, what I am

0:11:320:11:38

assuming tomorrow in this speech

that Mrs May will make, I think part

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of the environment plan is to take

over into EU law the whole raft of

0:11:430:11:48

EU environmental legislation. And I

think she's going to say that she

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will have an enforcement agency to

do what the commissioner and ECJ...

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We had a chance to vote on that. I

put an amendment and it was not

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voted on.

We started talking about

the ideology of the environment and

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who had a right to it? Would you

agree that the biggest friend to the

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environment is the Daily Mail. They

did all the work against microbeads,

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the plastic bag tax, sea pollution.

This is tomorrow's headline. They

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have done more to help the cause

arguably than the Greens have.

You

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are going at too far. I take your

point that they do some are good

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consumer campaigns.

But you have to

go to the middle ground.

You have to

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do both. You have to get people

aboard with understandable specific

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campaigns but you have to address

the structural difficulties as well.

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For as long as the Daily Mail and

the Conservatives are promoting more

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and more of the same kind of

economic growth, we will not have

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the systemic change we need. We have

to change the way we do business.

If

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the Conservatives had to choose

between economic growth and environ

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mental concerns, you know economic

growth would always come first?

One

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of the problems in this whole area

is one of the reasons we are forcing

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ourselves down the economic growth

through it if they constantly

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expanding population of this country

and you cannot ignore that. We are

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going up to 70 million with 80

million in prospect. We should aim

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for stability as far as pollution is

concerned and stability as far as

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economic growth is concerned. Years

ago I wrote that and I think it

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needs to happen.

But we need to look

at some practical things right now.

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HS2, when push comes to shove, when

economic gains put on one side and

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the environment on the other, it is

the economy which always wins out.

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There is something that planting

more trees, that is great. HS2 will

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threaten 35 agent woodlands. There

is no joined up thinking.

I think

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one of my sons is responsible for

HS2.

Have a word with him.

We can

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take a leading role internationally,

forests, plastic pollution, climate

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change and I would put in wildlife,

biodiversity. Crucial areas.

Thank

0:14:110:14:17

you both very much.

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How well do politicians

know the electorate?

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And do voters really

speak their minds when asked

0:14:210:14:23

about their concerns?

0:14:230:14:24

To get a better understanding

of peoples worries and insecurities

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one think tank, Demos,

tried to take the pulse

0:14:260:14:29

of people in England -

paying particular attention to white

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over fifties voters -

in areas that have undergone

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the most significant

cultural and economic dislocation

0:14:340:14:35

over the past three decades.

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Instead of asking responders

to tick boxes, it took down

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quotes and comments,

word for word - inviting people

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to answer honestly and anonymously

without fear of what some called

0:14:430:14:46

'the need for political

correctness'.

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We'll ask if their words represent

legitimate economic grievance,

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wistful nostalgia or a failure

to engage with modern Britain

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in a moment.

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First, John Sweeney has been gauging

reaction to the report's content

0:15:020:15:04

on Canvey Island in Essex.

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Where better to discuss the latest

trends in British society than on

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the Riviera, the Essex Riviera, that

is, and nowhere more lovely than

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Canvey Island? So, this think tank

called Demos which is full of lardy

0:15:240:15:33

Dar types has had a go at people

like me, white and over 55, you

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could call us pale and stale if not

necessarily male. Our views are a

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mixed bag, some of them perhaps a

bit too miserable worrying about the

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decline of Christianity, worrying

about do-gooders. On the other hand,

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what's wrong with thinking about

family? What's wrong with believing

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that you should respect people?

We

moved out of London into housing,

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council housing from the old Kent

Road.

They have known each other

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virtually their entire adult lives.

By the way, I use sisters or just

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mates?

Friends for the last 50

years.

50 years, when did you meet?

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We met when I was waitressing in a

nightclub.

I was about 18 when we

0:16:140:16:21

met in London because we lived in

London.

Was life better then?

0:16:210:16:25

Easier.

Yeah. I think it was easier,

your husband went to work. I just

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think it was easier.

I don't think

you wanted for much, your main thing

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in life was that you had a roof over

your head and your kids were at

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school and had a job when they came

out of school. That was the main

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thing then.

The Demos report quoted

dozens of people across the country.

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Here is one. What were you

respectful of them that you see kids

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are not respectful of now?

Things

get handed... If you are sitting

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around the table, which we do, and

use it all round the table, you have

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not just got the adults around the

table, you've got the children as

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well, so you are kind of passing on

knowledge, respect...

And love.

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Caring about one another and showing

them which way to go.

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Sitting on this bench dedicated to

his late wife we came across Brian.

0:17:250:17:32

Too many do-gooders, our group think

that. Do you think that?

I'm not

0:17:320:17:41

sure on that one about do-gooders. I

don't meet many in my life. I meet a

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lot of people who are helpful in

many ways, you know, in terms of the

0:17:500:17:59

friendship I've had through what's

happened to me. I've had some very

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good friends. Would you call them

do-gooders? I don't think so.

You

0:18:030:18:08

can't go to Canvey Island without

going down the booze. The survey

0:18:080:18:12

said older whites were not great at

naming politicians. True?

Neymar

0:18:120:18:17

politician? Margaret Thatcher.

She's

dead, Neymar living one.

Are any of

0:18:170:18:25

them living? -- name a politician.

Steve?

Theresa May.

You are the

0:18:250:18:37

intellectual, name another one.

Tony

Blair, David Cameron.

UL listing

0:18:370:18:44

half of the Cabinet, well, Theresa

May is in it the others are out --

0:18:440:18:48

you are listing. Why are your

grandkids less optimistic about

0:18:480:18:51

their future is then you were at

their age?

One thing comes down to

0:18:510:18:58

the immigration. Parellis jobs for

our kids anymore. That's what I see

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anyway. -- there are less jobs.

What

about buying a house?

The same

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thing.

Are people more respectful of

parity now all before?

They are less

0:19:080:19:17

respectful of authority, since they

took the cane away at school,

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teachers are not allowed to punish

children. Parents now seem to let

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their kids get away with anything.

Years ago I had more respect for my

0:19:240:19:29

parents. I got up to loads of

skulduggery but I never took it

0:19:290:19:33

home, it never went to my door. I

had more respect for my mum and dad,

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whereas the kids nowadays don't seem

to care, they have no respect for

0:19:380:19:41

anything.

As far as capturing the

views of Canvey Island was

0:19:410:19:46

concerned, the survey was spot on.

John Sweeney there.

0:19:460:19:52

We're joined by Sophie Gaston

who is the Acting Director

0:19:520:19:55

of the Demos think tank

which is behind today's report.

0:19:550:19:57

Also with us is Danny Lockwood,

the publisher of The Press

0:19:570:20:00

newspaper, which covers Dewsbury

and Batley in West Yorkshiure

0:20:000:20:04

newspaper, which covers Dewsbury

and Batley in West Yorkshire,

0:20:040:20:06

and Areeq Chowdhury

who is the Chief Executive

0:20:060:20:08

of WebRoots Democracy,

a digital democracy organisation.

0:20:080:20:10

Lovely to have you here. If I can

start with you, Sophie, from what

0:20:100:20:13

you've heard from Canvey Island

today, does that reflect the sort of

0:20:130:20:16

voices you are putting together in

that report?

Absolutely. The key

0:20:160:20:20

theme that came out of all of the

focus groups we did was a sense that

0:20:200:20:24

Britain is fundamentally on the

wrong track and that people have

0:20:240:20:27

really utterly lost faith in the

capacity of politicians to shape and

0:20:270:20:32

improve their lives. For people to

day life feel stressful, it feels

0:20:320:20:37

precarious, and a real sense of

mourning around things that have

0:20:370:20:43

been lost.

Danny, I'm going to come

to you, this idea of the wrong

0:20:430:20:47

track. If we could pull up these

quotes, these are verbatim quotes,

0:20:470:20:52

they don't necessarily all read very

obviously but let's just pull up one

0:20:520:20:57

of those quotes now. There are too

many do-gooders around. We saw a bit

0:20:570:21:01

of that in the film, didn't we? To

tell you what you can't do rather

0:21:010:21:04

than tell you what you can do. What

does that say to you?

That speaks to

0:21:040:21:10

me right off the top of the nanny

state really. But it all lies within

0:21:100:21:16

this political correctness that is

also kind of invading every element

0:21:160:21:20

of life. I'm not surprised old

people feel as though they are

0:21:200:21:22

getting blamed for getting old, they

have sustained the NHS for years but

0:21:220:21:26

they suddenly feel they are a burden

on it. And I think when they are

0:21:260:21:30

used to having a sense of community

and a place in life, they disappear.

0:21:300:21:37

When you say political correctness,

what does that mean?

I can only go

0:21:370:21:41

to my experience and say we have

seen radical socioeconomic cultural

0:21:410:21:45

shifts in our town and community has

gone and it's been replaced by, if

0:21:450:21:50

you like, the diktats of whether it

is political or judicial or local

0:21:500:21:54

authority, an administration that

seems to elevate, real or imagined

0:21:540:22:04

minorities, its values and rights

above there is. I think they have

0:22:040:22:07

been told, and they are sick of

being told, that their values and

0:22:070:22:10

their traditions and their cultural

heritage is worthless.

Areeq, do you

0:22:100:22:16

recognise that as being a corrosive

element?

I wish we lived in a

0:22:160:22:23

politically correct society to don't

think we did I believe political

0:22:230:22:26

correctness as having basic respect

for one another. We need to talk

0:22:260:22:29

about this as political correctness

gone mad and it just needs to be

0:22:290:22:34

political correctness. I read in the

report that some people were talking

0:22:340:22:37

about how we are not really a

Christian country anymore. I wish we

0:22:370:22:40

lived in a country that practised

Christian values, love thy

0:22:400:22:45

neighbour, do unto others as you

would have them do to you. That's

0:22:450:22:51

what political correctness is about.

Political correctness, when you boil

0:22:510:22:54

it down, is about freedom of speech.

Personally, I think freedom of

0:22:540:22:59

speech doesn't mean that you can

simply say whatever the EXPLETIVE

0:22:590:23:03

you want about something without

there being consequences.

While we

0:23:030:23:07

talk about the freedom of speech I

must apologise to our viewers.

That

0:23:070:23:11

perfectly illustrates my point I say

something and there is a consequence

0:23:110:23:15

and my reason for saying that is

people are annoyed about political

0:23:150:23:18

correctness, but what it's about as

you are free to say what you like in

0:23:180:23:22

a society.

Isn't that the point that

these people don't feel they have a

0:23:220:23:26

voice.

You can any newspaper in

society and that is freedom of

0:23:260:23:30

speech but if you see something I

deemed to be racist or bigoted I am

0:23:300:23:33

free to call you out on that, that's

the consequence, I can call out

0:23:330:23:39

sexism, homophobia, Islamophobia...

It is deeper than that, that is kind

0:23:390:23:44

of almost an intellectual

examination of it. These people are

0:23:440:23:47

talking about their real lives,

their real experiences, about their

0:23:470:23:50

community is being broken up, about

the landscape that their families

0:23:500:23:54

have known for generations and

generations being supplanted.

There

0:23:540:23:58

are changes throughout history.

There is no monopoly on British

0:23:580:24:01

society.

In this country in a period

of time that we are witnessing,

0:24:010:24:07

these people are bearing witness to

it, they have a right to be affected

0:24:070:24:10

by it and feel like they are not

represented.

I don't want to break

0:24:100:24:14

up the conversation but I want to

bring up the next quote, this is

0:24:140:24:17

about cultural identity. If we can

just pull this one up, which says my

0:24:170:24:23

husband's got a van and it's got an

English flag and he actually got

0:24:230:24:26

pulled up the other day by somebody

and they said, why have you got an

0:24:260:24:32

English flag on your van? I'm

reading the rest of it here. Sophie,

0:24:320:24:36

to bring you in, is this part of a

bigger conversation about the flag

0:24:360:24:39

and about patriotism over jingoism,

or discomfort with that? What did

0:24:390:24:45

you hear?

There was a huge amount of

discussion about English cultural

0:24:450:24:49

and national identity and it wasn't

just a flag, it was also St George's

0:24:490:24:54

Day, all of these different things,

and I think lots of citizens were

0:24:540:24:59

telling us that we feel that the

political classes have branded these

0:24:590:25:02

as somehow racist, or a symbol of

intolerance, or exclusion, and then

0:25:020:25:07

they are thinking, hang on, we have

to constantly adapt and welcome all

0:25:070:25:12

these other nationalities, and what

we start to see here is cultural

0:25:120:25:16

pluralism creating this kind of

zero-sum game.

Let me start on this

0:25:160:25:21

one then if I can with you, Areeq.

Do you find the St George's flag

0:25:210:25:27

makes you uncomfortable?

It depends

who is waving it. It has not been

0:25:270:25:33

made racist, by the way, by

immigrants or politicians, it's been

0:25:330:25:37

made racist by the likes of the EDL

and BMP. That's because those are

0:25:370:25:42

racist organisations that use that

flag as their brand and when it

0:25:420:25:45

comes to what you see on TV, apart

from the World Cup, you will see the

0:25:450:25:50

England fired at an EDL

demonstration on the news -- BMP.

I

0:25:500:25:55

have a real problem with that

because I think this is a real

0:25:550:25:58

symbol branded by people like Emily

Thornberry, when she ridiculed and

0:25:580:26:02

England football supporter in

2014...

0:26:020:26:10

Her career has not suffered for it,

has it?

She apologised for it.

It is

0:26:100:26:17

a symbol of the wider problem that

where we have schools now with the

0:26:170:26:20

educational establishment is

brainwashing our kids that this

0:26:200:26:26

isn't a country that you can be very

proud of.

No school is brainwashing

0:26:260:26:31

their kids...

Would you feel able to

put a flag up in the window?

In my

0:26:310:26:35

case it would be a Yorkshire flag. I

wouldn't have a problem about that.

0:26:350:26:40

I'm proud of my county, my country,

and the United Kingdom.

You don't

0:26:400:26:45

feel that part has been shut down?

I

would do it just the awkward but I

0:26:450:26:50

would know there be people... They

would be people passing judgment on

0:26:500:26:55

me because I was showing a symbol of

patriotism. I find that that really

0:26:550:27:00

is horrific.

You should address the

issue, which is people have taken

0:27:000:27:04

that flag and turned it into meaning

something, to some people it means

0:27:040:27:09

racism, that's the real issue,

whereas in society we see people

0:27:090:27:13

twisting that into these immigrants

are coming here at changing our

0:27:130:27:16

culture identity but that is not

true.

I'm going to bring in another

0:27:160:27:21

quote now, about immigration. I will

start with Sophie to put this into

0:27:210:27:24

context for us. The immigrants that

got in now, they are not working, or

0:27:240:27:30

they are working for their money and

sending it off. Does that fit into

0:27:300:27:33

the kind of quotes and feedback you

were getting?

Absolutely. We saw

0:27:330:27:40

very few expressions of overt racial

prejudice in these focus groups,

0:27:400:27:44

even when a space was created, save

space, for people to express those

0:27:440:27:49

views. There just wasn't that kind

of feeling. But what there was was a

0:27:490:27:53

very strong expression of what I

would call welfare chauvinism. The

0:27:530:27:58

idea that some people should have

access to our social state and

0:27:580:28:01

others shouldn't and the people who

have the access, it should be owned

0:28:010:28:06

by their social and economic

contribution.

Danny.

I enjoyed this

0:28:060:28:11

report because it felt like Sophie

was listening to me and my buddies

0:28:110:28:14

at the bar in the pub. But on this

one I don't think anything like this

0:28:140:28:19

risks presenting cliches and

stereotypes, and I kind of see that

0:28:190:28:24

as one of those. What came out of

the report that I really liked was

0:28:240:28:27

the fairness that was identified

quite broadly among people.

Do you

0:28:270:28:31

think that is not fair, do you hear

that quote and think it is not fair?

0:28:310:28:35

I can see why that would grab a

headline and be picked out but I

0:28:350:28:38

don't think the report says that's

even typical. I realised a finding

0:28:380:28:43

that these people from a specific

demographic who are not overtly

0:28:430:28:48

racist, and I do think that fairness

and get on with it attitude that

0:28:480:28:51

shone through in the report is

absolutely the generation of people

0:28:510:28:55

that I still respect.

When you hear

the immigration argument, do you

0:28:550:28:59

think it is about race, or do you

think it can be about you can --

0:28:590:29:07

economic chauvinism?

I think it is

racist. When it comes to this, this

0:29:070:29:14

is a caricature of what Britain is

like. People are sold an idea,

0:29:140:29:20

normally through the media, about

immigrants coming here taking jobs

0:29:200:29:24

and housing at the reality is

completely different. Lots of

0:29:240:29:28

immigrants work hard and are doing

jobs. My whole family are working in

0:29:280:29:32

the NHS and my brother is a junior

doctor. The other point about this

0:29:320:29:37

that we cannot cover in this

segment, I find the irony of Britain

0:29:370:29:42

being annoyed about people coming to

their country and taking their

0:29:420:29:46

resources when the richness of this

country is built on centuries of the

0:29:460:29:49

British Empire going to other

countries and ignoring borders,

0:29:490:29:54

ignoring people, taking money.

There

we go, let's drag up 250 years of

0:29:540:29:57

Empire.

Why should we?

And beat the

people who I think made this country

0:29:570:30:03

great.

The British Empire?

The very

welcoming and safe place on the

0:30:030:30:08

whole for migrants.

The British

Empire that killed millions of

0:30:080:30:12

people.

We will all go back and

apologise for everything all the way

0:30:120:30:16

back.

This is a key part. You cannot

just ignore. If you want to be

0:30:160:30:22

magician is now the culture

identity.

Are we talking about

0:30:220:30:26

politicians trying to re-engage with

a whole swathe of the country that

0:30:260:30:28

has disengaged and thinks all

politicians are self-serving liars?

0:30:280:30:33

That's what this report tells us. I

actually think the politicians are

0:30:330:30:36

missing a trick.

0:30:360:30:41

What to do politicians do with this

now? You can hear clear divide

0:30:410:30:47

between how people perceive the same

sort of grievances or injustices. If

0:30:470:30:53

you were a politician saying how do

we make them both happy?

What was

0:30:530:31:00

really striking for me is there was

a lot of conversation around

0:31:000:31:05

intergenerational warfare between

the young and the old, this primary

0:31:050:31:09

skills in our society. I think what

this shows is even amongst the older

0:31:090:31:15

generation, there are very clear

conflicts here. There are the people

0:31:150:31:18

who are sort of willing, if not

enthusiastic about embracing change

0:31:180:31:23

and handing over to the next

generation, and then there are the

0:31:230:31:27

people who continue to see

themselves as the dominant and

0:31:270:31:31

authentic voice of British values in

the heart of Britain and are very

0:31:310:31:35

actively resistant to change. I

think it is the political decisions

0:31:350:31:40

about whether to favour or to try

and reconcile these two or to take

0:31:400:31:44

leadership to take us in a

completely different direction which

0:31:440:31:47

will ultimately define where we go.

Or at least recognise the concerns.

0:31:470:31:54

Recognise the concerns that it

undermines the issue when the media

0:31:540:31:59

have put the blame on immigrants.

I

think that suits your agenda.

We

0:31:590:32:04

will have you back for the next

report. And even after the

0:32:040:32:11

watershed, I have to apologise and

say we're not allowed to swear

0:32:110:32:14

unless I warn you first.

0:32:140:32:18

Over five billion journeys

are made by bus each year.

0:32:180:32:20

By contrast only around 250 million

journeys are made on trains.

0:32:200:32:23

But in terms of political fallout -

even though most of our rail system

0:32:230:32:26

has long been privatised -

when the trains fail it's

0:32:260:32:28

the government that has

to justify its handling

0:32:280:32:30

of the network.

0:32:300:32:31

It got it in the neck today

from the National Audit Office

0:32:310:32:34

over the way it awarded

the Govia Thameslink franchise.

0:32:340:32:36

It comes soon after the Transport

Secretary Chris Grayling had

0:32:360:32:39

to answer questions over

the financial arrangements

0:32:390:32:40

of the East Coast franchise.

0:32:400:32:42

Today he said the companies

running the route are not

0:32:420:32:44

being given a bailout.

0:32:440:32:45

Despite the claims of the party

of the said this is not a bailout.

0:32:450:32:48

There is no viable legal

mechanism through which

0:32:480:32:50

I can extract any

more money from them.

0:32:500:32:53

My department is preparing

contingency plans, as we do not

0:32:530:32:56

believe the franchise will be

financially viable through to 2020.

0:32:560:32:59

I've clearly got a duty to do

that for passengers.

0:32:590:33:03

When we reach a conclusion

to that work I will come

0:33:030:33:06

back to this house

and make a statement.

0:33:060:33:09

So, what's going on on the railways?

0:33:090:33:11

Our business editor

Helen Thomas is here.

0:33:110:33:18

The East Coast specifically

referenced today. What happened?

0:33:180:33:22

Last November, the government said

the east Coast franchise which is a

0:33:220:33:26

joint venture between Stagecoach and

Virgin Group Woodend in 2020 which

0:33:260:33:29

is three years earlier than planned.

Stagecoach said they had over bid on

0:33:290:33:34

this contract. They had been too

aggressive and so critics have

0:33:340:33:38

called this a bailout and said it

should have been nationalised. The

0:33:380:33:44

government dispute that. They

concede the company have got their

0:33:440:33:47

numbers wrong because big

infrastructure and improvements have

0:33:470:33:49

not come through as expected, but

they say they will take 165 million

0:33:490:33:55

of the companies which was the full

guarantee that was baked into this

0:33:550:33:58

contract. It has set up an almighty

debate about rail franchising and

0:33:580:34:03

whether it is working at all.

In

terms of other franchises, where

0:34:030:34:08

does this leave the government?

Huge

amounts of debate about that in the

0:34:080:34:14

industry. Rail

0:34:140:34:21

industry. Rail passenger numbers

have flat lined. They rose above 4%

0:34:210:34:23

on average each year since the

mid-90s and they flat lined in 2016

0:34:230:34:25

and the latest numbers show them

falling. The question is have other

0:34:250:34:28

companies got their numbers wrong?

Industry experts have said three

0:34:280:34:33

other franchises could face

difficulties, Northern, Greater

0:34:330:34:37

Anglia and trans-Pennine. Those

awarded around the 201516 period,

0:34:370:34:41

very competitive eating and before

this downturn. The company we have

0:34:410:34:49

spoken to, Abellio, the Dutch

company behind Greater Anglia say

0:34:490:34:55

they are confident of meeting their

targets and all three companies say

0:34:550:35:00

they are stressing and modernising

and adding capacity. There is a huge

0:35:000:35:05

ideological debate going on here.

Labour says privatisation has

0:35:050:35:09

failed. Industry would say passenger

traffic has doubled since the 90s.

0:35:090:35:14

In reality, these are not private

companies, these are huge government

0:35:140:35:19

contracts with lots of constipated

requirements in them. The question

0:35:190:35:23

is, who bears the risk when things

go wrong and that will always be

0:35:230:35:26

controversial.

Thank you.

0:35:260:35:30

At the time of his death -

two years ago today -

0:35:300:35:33

David Bowie was collaborating

on a book including many previously

0:35:330:35:35

unseen photographs

from his hugely successful

0:35:350:35:37

'Serious Moonlight' tour of 1983.

0:35:370:35:38

Bowie played to packed stadiums

around the world on the back

0:35:380:35:43

of his hit album Let's Dance.

0:35:430:35:45

And following him, both on-stage

and off, was British

0:35:450:35:47

photographer Denis O'Regan.

0:35:470:35:50

O'Regan's putting together a limited

edition boxed-set of 1,000 or so

0:35:500:35:53

photographs plus other

memorabilia, called Ricochet

0:35:530:35:55

for sale to collectors and Bowie

completists at a suitably starry

0:35:550:36:01

price of £3000.

0:36:010:36:02

A more affordable paperback

will also appear.

0:36:020:36:03

Denis O'Regan has been

telling Stephen Smith

0:36:030:36:05

about the thrills -

and the stills - of life on the road

0:36:050:36:08

with David Bowie.

0:36:080:36:12

MUSIC: Let's Dance

0:36:120:36:18

He would actively

want me to photograph

0:36:180:36:19

him the whole time.

0:36:190:36:22

We all queued up

for our bags and David

0:36:220:36:26

had his trolley, and of course

I didn't take any pictures

0:36:260:36:29

thinking this is boring.

0:36:290:36:30

But he and his PA said I think

you should be capturing this.

0:36:300:36:33

This isn't how you

normally see David.

0:36:330:36:37

I realised really quickly

that they wanted me to capture

0:36:370:36:39

virtually everything that he did.

0:36:390:36:42

MUSIC: Let's Dance

0:36:420:36:45

# Let's dance put on your red shoes

and dance the blues #

0:36:450:36:50

Arriving at the airport

surrounded as usual.

0:36:500:36:51

Denis O'Regan went round

the world with David Bowie.

0:36:510:36:55

Private jet, 5-star hotels, tough

job but somebody had to do it.

0:36:550:37:03

He was photographer by appointment

to the star on his all-conquering

0:37:040:37:07

tour of 1983.

0:37:070:37:09

MUSIC: Let's Dance

0:37:090:37:11

# Let's sway under the moonlight,

this serious moonlight #

0:37:110:37:16

The pair of them

already had history.

0:37:160:37:20

I met David outside Olympic Studios

in Barnes, West London

0:37:200:37:22

when he was recording Diamond Dogs.

0:37:220:37:28

And I was working in a newspaper

shop because I was still a teenager,

0:37:280:37:31

working in a newspaper shop across

the road.

0:37:310:37:36

And some girls came into the shop

giggling and asking to

0:37:360:37:38

buy notebooks.

0:37:380:37:39

So...

0:37:390:37:40

For his autograph?

0:37:400:37:41

To get his autograph.

0:37:410:37:42

So I asked around and found

out that who it was.

0:37:420:37:45

So I went home, got my camera

and zipped back, got my uncle's

0:37:450:37:48

camera, actually, zipped back

and got some pictures of him walking

0:37:480:37:51

into the studio, and

then it was kind of,

0:37:510:37:53

hello, you should work for NME sort

of thing and that was our first

0:37:530:37:56

exchange.

0:37:560:37:57

# You've got your mother

in a whirl

0:37:570:37:59

# She's not sure if you're

a boy or a girl #

0:37:590:38:02

Can I sit down here?

0:38:020:38:03

Yeah, sure.

0:38:030:38:04

No, I can't.

0:38:040:38:06

I'll sit here then.

0:38:060:38:11

About two days ago EMI Records

phoned me up in Australia

0:38:110:38:13

and said, would I like to

take a 25 hour flight

0:38:130:38:18

back and come and sit in a room with

75 journalists?

0:38:180:38:26

Over the last year I've completed an

album and single called Let's Dance,

0:38:260:38:29

and tomorrow tickets go on sale in

the UK, and in the next few days in

0:38:290:38:33

the rest of Europe for concert

performances.

0:38:330:38:36

MUSIC: Modern Love

0:38:360:38:38

# I catch a paper boy

0:38:380:38:40

# But things don't really change

0:38:400:38:43

# I'm standing in the wind

0:38:430:38:44

# But I never wave bye-bye #

0:38:440:38:48

Bowie didn't seem to mind

what pictures O'Regan took on

0:38:480:38:50

his Serious Moonlight tour.

0:38:500:38:54

He was more concerned

about the ones he missed.

0:38:540:38:58

The tour manager says,

"David wants to see you."

0:38:580:39:01

So I said OK, so I wander

down to the dressing room

0:39:010:39:05

and as I opened

up the dressing room

0:39:050:39:09

door David was facing me

and the make-up girl

0:39:090:39:11

was behind me

and I saw from her look that I was

0:39:110:39:14

obviously in trouble for something.

0:39:140:39:15

And David said, "Did you get it?"

0:39:150:39:17

And I said, "well, get what?"

0:39:170:39:18

And he said, "Get out of my sight."

0:39:180:39:20

So I still didn't

know what I'd missed.

0:39:200:39:25

Of course, it turned out he'd got

hugely mobbed at the backstage door

0:39:250:39:28

and I wasn't there.

0:39:280:39:30

To make up for that actual

instance, David rented a car

0:39:300:39:35

and organised a picnic and drove me

and two other friends out for a

0:39:350:39:39

picnic that he'd arranged in a

wildlife nature reserve.

0:39:390:39:47

The man off-stage was very different

to the persona that I'd seen of

0:39:490:39:52

David Bowie on stage, which was very

cool and detached, which is the very

0:39:520:39:55

opposite of David.

0:39:550:39:57

He's very warm, funny,

engaging, self-deprecating.

0:39:570:39:58

He laughed a huge, huge amount.

0:39:580:40:01

Is that anywhere near accurate?

0:40:010:40:02

Absolutely nowhere near accurate.

0:40:020:40:03

Can you give us a more

accurate figure?

0:40:030:40:05

Of course not!

0:40:050:40:07

I could do a book of David laughing.

0:40:070:40:09

You mean shots of him?

0:40:090:40:10

Yeah.

0:40:100:40:11

Roaring away?

0:40:110:40:12

Yeah.

0:40:120:40:14

He laughed, onstage

he laughed a lot because he

0:40:140:40:16

didn't have to play the Thin White

Duke or Ziggy Stardust anymore.

0:40:160:40:19

So, he was allowed

to laughed onstage.

0:40:190:40:22

But he laughed all the time

off stage as well.

0:40:220:40:24

It's what he really

wanted to spend his time

0:40:240:40:27

doing, was having fun.

0:40:270:40:28

It was one of Bowie's

biggest tours in support of

0:40:280:40:30

a massive hit record.

0:40:300:40:33

But is it true that he didn't

care for it overmuch?

0:40:330:40:36

He was really, really proud of it.

0:40:360:40:43

He was proud of the album, proud of

the tour, proud of the show,

0:40:430:40:46

and also it made him hugely rich.

0:40:460:40:48

In the context then

when he looked back and

0:40:480:40:50

put that into the context of

everything else he did it obviously

0:40:500:40:53

wasn't as mean and dirty and culty

as some of the other things

0:40:530:40:56

he'd done.

0:40:560:41:00

And to then look back and call

it his Phil Collins period.

0:41:000:41:03

Is that what he described it as?

0:41:030:41:05

Yeah, later on.

0:41:050:41:06

20 years later it suddenly

became his Phil Collins period.

0:41:060:41:08

But at the time it was his peak.

0:41:080:41:11

I think now in a world

where everything is

0:41:110:41:14

so visual it's inconceivable that

you become a star without the visual

0:41:140:41:17

aspect, it's perhaps hard for us

to recognise that when Bowie started

0:41:170:41:22

in the late 60s that this was less

of a concept and he was very,

0:41:220:41:27

very early on to that idea of fusing

the visual and the music.

0:41:270:41:32

He knew how important image was.

0:41:320:41:37

MUSIC: Lazarus

0:41:370:41:39

# Just like that bluebird #

0:41:390:41:46

Once so accessible, the star became

more reclusive in latter

0:41:460:41:48

years, following health problems.

0:41:480:41:49

But O'Regan said he never stopped

wanting to be David Bowie.

0:41:490:41:53

He'd made mistakes but

he learned from those mistakes,

0:41:530:41:55

and some of those mistakes

and less popular parts of

0:41:550:41:58

his career became part of that

tapestry, part of that timeline.

0:41:580:42:00

I think he was happy with that.

0:42:000:42:02

I think he was very happy

with being David Bowie.

0:42:020:42:05

But he wanted to be

David Jones as well.

0:42:050:42:07

It's very difficult

for someone as famous as

0:42:070:42:09

him and so distinctive, but he

managed to disappear when he wanted

0:42:090:42:12

to disappear.

0:42:120:42:13

MUSIC: Lazarus

0:42:130:42:15

# Ain't that just like me #

0:42:150:42:23

Steven Smith and David Bowie who

died two years ago today. That is

0:42:280:42:33

all we have time for tonight. Good

night from all of us.

0:42:330:42:41