24/01/2018 Newsnight

Tonight, the Presidents Club

shuts down, the charity

money is handed back,

and Britain's business and political

elite run for cover.

But this annual event has been

going on for 30 years,

so are people really shocked,

or have they just been exposed?

We ask government

minister Margot James.

We'll discuss with a woman

who previously worked

as a hostess at the event

and another who was asked to,

but turned it down.

Also, a rare interview

with a firefighter who tackled

the blaze at Grenfell.

How are those on the front line

coping more than six months on?

I still feel guilt

and I think I will

feel eternally guilty.

My job, the reason I joined this

job, is to make sure the person

I'm saving doesn't die.

Ultimately, that's the point,

the black and white of my job.

So, when so many innocent people

lose their lives it's very,

very hard to take.

Is Cape Town about to become

the first global city

to run out of water?

We'll ask the politician

who's trying to halt

an unprecedented crisis.

And the death was announced

this evening of the Fall

singer Mark E Smith.

We look back on a life

of Manchester, music and colourful

appearances on Newsnight.

And I allowed to speak now? Yeah, go

ahead.

Yeah, what ever you say. Are

you the new DJ?

Yeah, probably,

probably.

And we'll speak live

to his friend Tim Burgess.

Good evening.

The Presidents Club's "men only"

annual dinner has been

taking place for more than 30 years.

But on the strength of one

excoriating investigative report,

and 24 hours of public outrage,

it has just announced

it's shutting its doors.

Tonight, as charities handed back

the money they received

from the fundraiser,

and a chief organiser was fired

from his role in government,

it is easy to see why business folk

could not move quicker to distance

themselves from the event.

Tonight, a minister told me

it was a watershed moment.

Yet even in 2018, when allegations

of sexual abuse and misuse of power

have permeated pubic discourse

for months, more than 300 men chose

to go to an event where the only

women they would find would be

working as hostesses.

Forced to have their underwear

dictated to them, their mobile

phones removed, and sign disclaimers

that absolved the club

from any blame.

So, have attitudes really changed?

Or just been exposed?

And what real consequences

will there be and should

there be for those involved?

Here's Helen Thomas.

It has been a day of outrage.

Women were bought as bait.

The organisers chose to make

this a men-only event.

They chose to treat

the hostesses in this way

to make them parade

across the stage in front of men,

to make them wear black,

skimpy outfits and specify

the colour of their underwear.

A charity is prepared

to facilitate that

behaviour as long as wealthy men

open their cheque

books beggars belief.

The revelations from the Presidents

Club pose many questions.

Not least how is it that an event

which seems to have been running

in roughly this form

for at least a decade has

attracted so little scrutiny.

But, there's been

soul-searching elsewhere, too.

What is acceptable in the name

of charity fundraising

and what checks could or should

charities be doing

on their donations?

In 2016 alone, nearly 60

charities received a donation

from The Presidents Club,

according to its accounts.

If fundraising isn't

being carried out in a way

that is generally acceptable,

and ethical, then the fact that

you raise lots of money is,

in a way, neither here nor there.

We want fundraising by charities

to be open, honest and respectful

of those who donate.

It's really important

because it is about public trust

and confidence in what charities do

and how they do it.

The Presidents Club wasn't

being entirely straightforward.

Last week's auction included a tour

of the Bank of England

and tea with the governor,

Mark Carney.

Newsnight understands that

that had previously been

sold at another event -

for the Lord Mayor's

Appeal last November.

And that Bruce Ritchie, the

Presidents Club's joint chairman,

was the buyer.

The bank says it was resold last

week, without its permission.

And that the successful

bidder will not be taking

tea with the governor.

Given the importance of its annual

event to fundraising,

the charity disclosed almost no

details about it.

In 2016, the dinner raised

nearly £1.6 million.

It cost almost £600,000,

according to its accounts.

Many charities would be

pleased with that ratio.

Look back to 2013 and it's

a different story.

The event raised £264,000

but cost £400,700.

True, the dinner also generated

donations accounted for seven

leave from event income,

usually £2000 or £3000.

But still, from 2012 to 2015,

the cost of putting

on the dinner was roughly the same

or higher than the amount

it paid out to charity

beneficiaries each year.

The Presidents Club

declined to comment.

Charity sector experts told us that

sometimes these big, glitzy dinners,

even those without 130

hired hostesses, don't

make a great profit.

Still, they said, the Presidents

Club governance looked weak

for a charity of its size.

It only had three trustees, all men.

Still, the head of fundraising at

one well-known charity told us that

their checks wouldn't have

picked up an event of

this type and they said,

if they had questions

or concerns, they weren't sure

which of the sector's regulators

and watchdogs they

should ask for help.

So, at the moment,

the Charity Commission

for England and Wales,

we have just about

300 civil servants

working for us across

167,000 charities.

That's not a lot.

Our capacity is very stretched.

We've had some good news

this week, in fact,

that the Treasury has recognised

the demands on us, the volumes,

and has agreed, on a

short-term basis, to give

it a bit more funding,

£5 million a year more funding.

The Charity Commission has

launched an investigation.

The fallout from last week's 5-star

dinner is only just beginning.

Earlier, I talked to

the Culture Minister Margot James.

I asked what she thought

the Presidents Club event showed.

Well, I think it represents the very

worst form of sexism

with a smile on its face.

You know, very clubby,

apparently a "men only" event, and,

at which, women were

paraded around in a sort

of "paid for" hostess role.

A lot of stuff gets done in the name

of charity, I guess.

Do you think charities have

to be the moral arbiter

of these kinds of events?

Well, I think you can expect them

to be, if they're organising them.

I mean, this organisation,

The Presidents Club,

they booked these hostesses.

They sanctioned the conditions

under which they worked,

the nature of the clothing,

or lack thereof, that they

were allowed to wear,

and what we've heard about the sort

of instructions they were given,

as to how they were supposed

to entertain the men

attending the dinner.

The organisers put disclaimers out,

warning that they couldn't take

responsibility for anything that

happened to the women there.

That breaks the law, doesn't it?

I hope so, yes.

Certainly, that would be something

I would want to be investigated

and I know that the minister

responsible, who answered

the question very, very effectively

in the Commons earlier,

Anne Milton, is going to look

into whether there has

been any legal breaches.

Quite right, too.

When you see all these men,

the organisations, the business

figures distance themselves today,

in the last 24 hours,

from The Presidents Club,

what does that tell you?

Well, I think, actually,

it gives me signs of hope.

I don't think 20 years ago

they would have been bothered.

So, I think that it's a watershed

moment in the excess

of this kind of culture.

And I think that charities

and companies will think long

and hard before they hire women

to be groped by men or certainly

to entertain men in this kind

of environment in the future,

under the guise

of charitable giving.

You say it's a watershed moment.

Clearly, you're horrified

by the reports you've read.

But I wonder if you can honestly say

that you're shocked or surprised.

Um, I am surprised that such

an event happens with so many

captains of industry

and banking and what have

you in the Dorchester Hotel.

The Minister for Children and

Families, Nadhim Zahawi, was there.

Are you comfortable with him

carrying on in his government role?

Yes, I am because he

didn't stay long.

In fact, he left after

an hour and a half.

I think he left at 9:30 pm.

I've spoken to him.

I wanted to get the facts.

He went home very shortly

after the hostesses were announced

by the presenter and paraded

around the room.

I think that that indicates to me

that he was shocked by the events,

didn't like the culture,

the atmosphere, and left.

Why wouldn't he report it, though?

Why wouldn't he leave an event,

saying that was deeply

uncomfortable and tell someone?

Well, I think he went

home and told his wife.

But, the point is that

I think events degenerated

further into the evening.

I mean he...

I have been to, sort of, big dinners

occasionally and you're barely

in the main course by 9:30 pm.

So, I think he probably didn't

realise how bad it got.

Your thoughts now

on "male only" events.

Nadhim Zahawi wrote today

that he was never going

to attend another one.

No.

I think that's very wise.

What about male-only clubs?

Well, I think they should

be things of the past.

I was at an event a couple of years

ago and I went to have a meeting

after the breakfast in the drawing

room of this club in Pall Mall,

The Travellers Club,

and I was told to move.

No women in the drawing room.

I mean, this kind of thing,

this disdain, lack of equality,

demeaning attitude

that devalues women has got to end.

Joining me now is Carolyn Mason,

managing director

of Exhibition Girls Limited.

She was a hostess at

The Presidents Club, five years ago.

And Gina Miller, a prominent

business woman and city figure.

She was also asked to be a hostess

and I will bring back in. What was

it like when you worked there?

Do

you recognise this? I would say that

The Presidents Club in general was

an unusual event. The girls who work

at it... It wasn't a standard event

in the fact that they were... So

many of us working at this event. I

wouldn't say, as I was saying to

Jena earlier, it was not a

representation of a normal event I

would be staffing. We staff for

charity events, evening events, with

professional girls and hostesses to

work.

When you were there, the kind

of things we have heard is that it

was uncomfortable for the women,

phones were removed, there was

groping, harassment, there was new

behaviour on all levels. Is that

something that you experienced or

recognised? -- there was lewd

behaviour.

What I wanted to say

today is that this is not a

representation of the corporate

event industry. This is a

professional industry. The girls,

the hostesses they are there to do a

job, they are events assistance,

they are there to support the event

in terms of hospitality.

This one,

did it have a reputation? Was it

notorious?

This was unusual. In

terms of the friends who work in the

industry. We talk about this event.

It was unusual because there were so

many hostesses in correlation to

attendees at the event.

Did girls go

back, women go back year after year.

Was there a sense they knew then

what -- they knew what they were

getting into, they didn't mind, the

pay was good or was its new women as

they didn't know what to expect?

It

was at the Dorchester Hotel, a set

time, I didn't feel unsafe working

at this event. It was the amount of

girls that were at this event.

Personally, I didn't feel at risk or

at any time... I wasn't aware that

the girls around me were. It was

again and it was an auction. There

was limited time -- it was a dinner.

There was a bar environment after

the event. I wouldn't say this is a

standard corporate or charity event.

I want to come back to your business

in a second, the Gina

I want to come back to your business

in a second, the Gina, you were

asked to be a hostess at The

Presidents Club in the 90s.

This

event is notorious. I have come

across it twice, once when I was a

single mother, student, like lots of

the girls that were hired. For extra

money, you do it, part-time

actresses, streams, what ever. I

have spoken to girls who had been at

this event and said it was very

uncomfortable. And that they felt it

was actually something that they

didn't feel safe at. I had heard

that so I turned it down. Later,

2004, 2005, when I was running my

agency in the city I heard about it

again. I hadn't heard about it since

then. I had presumed it had become

an PC and that it had disappeared. I

was very surprised to hear it was

happening now.

It shot you?

It

shocked me that it was going on.

--

it shocks you?

In the background of

Harvey Weinstein.

Why would you turn

up to an event like this in the

environment in which we are in at

the moment?

Are we in a different

environment?

I think we are.

The

public at which has been

considerable today that 300 or so

men still attended the event last

week.

This is not a normal charity event.

To try to tar fundraising charities

as these sort of events is

completely wrong.

Do think it is

one-of-a-kind?

Yes. The type of men

who attended our captains of

industry, men with real power and

influence and many men who, by day,

are spouting equality for women and

at night they are going to events

like this. It is completely wrong.

What does that say that the cultures

they are perpetuating in their own

organisations?

Tell us about your

business. You run and events

management team and hire women.

Would you ever imagine putting on

those sorts of requests about what

women wear and having their phones

removed or things like that or do

they signed nondisclosure agreements

that is it normal? If it is normal,

explain to us.

A lot of people do

not understand the hostess industry

in general. We are event support. It

is very professional. The girls are

engaged to support events in a

capacity of professionalism. They

are used as meet and greet and

hospitality. Not just girls. I am

proudest is a professional

environment. I have had a business

for five years and have worked in it

for six years myself. I would not

put girls in a position where they

feel uncomfortable.

Do you think

your industry is now in trouble as a

result of this?

I guess that is why

I wanted to come on today foot of

this industry provides great

professional safe work for

actresses, dancers, and models. I'd

feel it is positive. Students as

well. It is a positive and safe

industry. What I did want to bring

up is I do feel there should be more

regulation of this industry. I am

very pro-employee rights, agency

rights. I have been speaking to my

local MP about this. I thought there

should be a high level of

protection.

One question is where it

starts being hypocritical. There are

plenty of women who work in this

industry, as Carolyn was saying. It

might come across... Does it sound

to you like a sexist industry, an

industry you would want to tell

women in general to get out because

they are being hostesses?

I think it

is this eventful more to say about

the men in this event and the

organisers of this event. Feeling

you can use them. Would be just as

bad if it were men being told to

wear tight trousers and butter now

shouts. The fact is the NDA is in

particular, you cannot sign away

your what -- your rights. You cannot

sign something where you agree harm

against yourself and stop it is

being used, not because it is

legally binding that as a bullying

tactics.

We do have a role to play

for that we are hired as

hospitality. We are signed as meet

and greets. This is an actual job

that girls are providing. We are

event support. It is about making it

run smoothly.

Thank you both very

much.

The fire at Grenfell left a profound

effect on a whole community.

Not just those who suffered

so terribly from its effects,

but also those who came

to their rescue that

dreadful night in June.

Many of the fire fighters

have sought counselling

and support since then.

124 have received it directly,

another 500 have been contacted

by London Fire Brigades Counselling

and welfare teams.

At its helm is Dany Cotton,

the first ever female boss

of the London Fire Brigade,

who in her first year, oversaw

London's repeated terrorist

attacks and Grenfell.

Tonight, we speak to her and to one

of her firefighters.

Ricky Nuttall wrote an emotional

poem in the week after Grenfell.

It's the first time

he's spoken publicly

about what happened on the night,

and the impact it had.

I still feel guilt and I think

I will feel eternally guilty.

When so many people,

innocent people, lose their lives,

it's very, very hard to take.

I would defy anyone who attended

that night not to have been

affected, in some way.

And it definitely did affect me.

The whole incident

was so overwhelming.

You know, I've, sort of,

gone to work one person and I've

come back, effectively,

a different person.

With the police investigation

and inquiry ongoing,

it's very rare for firefighters

to speak publicly about

what happened at Grenfell.

Right, stretcher and myself

are both in the system.

And this week, the London Fire

Brigade gave Newsnight access to two

staff members who were there.

During a training session

at London's Chelsea fire station,

we met Ricky Nuttall,

a firefighter from

Battersea Red Watch,

who went into Grenfell

more than once.

And the commissioner,

who led the operation that night.

It was...

It was immediately obvious how

serious a fire it was

and how bad a fire it was.

You know, you get called

to a high-rise fire and you expect

to see flames in a window.

Not...

Multiple windows.

I think, for me, the main image that

will always last in my memory

is when I first arrived.

And when I looked up

at the building and thought to

myself, "This just can't

be happening, here".

And, for me, the responsibility was

absolutely enormous, on that night.

You know, I haven't been backwards

in coming forwards about saying

I went and sought counselling quite

early with our counselling

well-being team.

I know that when I joined,

a very long time ago, you know,

we didn't much talk about stuff,

because we just got on with stuff.

And, actually, that

was the way it was.

Most of the firefighters around this

table attended the Grenfell fire.

I saw my counsellor last week.

Their Commissioner's been open

about the psychological impact

and the experience on her.

The LFB has had a mental

health awareness drive

to support its staff since the fire.

The watch at the fire station

are quite a close watch.

They've been there for each

other and talked about

things in great depth.

124 firefighters have received

individual counselling,

directly related to Grenfell

in the months since.

You don't realise you're

going through it.

It's only when you start coming

through the other side,

you look back at your

mindset, your attitude.

For Ricky, Grenfell

was the catalyst for his own mental

health difficulties.

He too is having counselling.

It's the first time he's spoken

to the media about what happened.

The sheer scale of the incident was

like nothing I've ever seen before

and, hopefully, will

never see it again.

So, any feelings after that,

they, sort of, reared

their heads at a later point.

You know, in the days and the weeks

and the months afterwards.

Did you hit a crisis point?

I mean, how did you realise?

One morning I, literally, just...

Sort of...

I guess...

Had a form of a breakdown.

You know, I started crying

and I couldn't stop

for a good few hours.

And I phoned my girlfriend

and I phoned my dad and I spoke

to family and I'm very lucky that

I've got a very close family.

Who I can rely on.

But that was the moment, really,

that I realised I need...

You know, this is...

I'm not in a good place,

I need more help here.

I was offered, by my GP,

when I spoke to my GP,

she asked me, "You know,

do you need time off work?"

And, to be honest with you,

that's the last thing I wanted.

I wanted to be at work, sort of,

speaking to people that have been...

That were there at the incident

with me and that, you know, have

had their own struggles and stuff.

Because you belong there, you know,

they're like a second family.

How valuable has it been,

the fact that your boss,

your top loss, Dany Cotton,

has talked very openly

about the counselling she is having?

I think it's...

Unquantifiably important.

I think it just reassures people

when you say, "OK, you know,

I haven't got anything to be fearful

of here, no-one is going to throw me

on the scrapheap, I'm

having some problems,

but so is the Chief".

Ready when you guys are...

More than half of a firefighter's

working life is spent

in training scenarios.

It's been widely reported

that the fire at Grenfell didn't

behave as firefighter had expected

it to, but here, they believed

they were as prepared

as they could have been.

Casualties on the deck.

You know, I'd be lying if I said

I wasn't apprehensive

about going in, if I didn't feel

a bit scared.

But I felt confident

in the capabilities of my equipment

and the capabilities of myself,

through the training I had received.

And with the people

I'm going in with.

You know, they're people that

I work with most days

of the week for a lot of years.

They're people that

I trust with my life.

The conditions themselves weren't

too dissimilar to any others.

The effort you had to

put in was different,

because of the length of time

you were in the incident for.

In a two-storey building,

going up one flight of stairs...

Going up a flight of stairs

in a fire condition is hard work.

It's smoky, you have

poor visibility.

Going up one flight of stairs

in Grenfell was exactly the same.

With the difference that you've got

to go up to 20 flights of stairs

or 15 flights of stairs.

Which, obviously,

is much more taxing.

The conditions were very, very hard.

After Grenfell, fire stations

across London received an outpouring

of support from the public.

The horror of the tragedy

affected so many.

And there are questions

about whether more lives

could have been saved.

Our filming was agreed

on the basis that neither

could talk about the specifics

of what happened, because of

the ongoing investigation.

But I did ask the Commissioner

about the "stay put" advice

given to Grenfell residents.

Do you ever, in the middle

of the night, wake up,

as part of your coming to terms

with this and think,

"Did we give the right advice?

Should we have told

people to leave?"

I can't answer that.

Because of the investigation?

Because of the investigation.

That is absolutely right,

that is part of the investigation

and it needs to come out,

as part of that, so, you know...

But, the whole purpose of what we do

and the advice we give is normally

based on an absolute sound set

of principles about how

buildings behave in fire.

And the normal advice

about staying inside,

if your flat is not affected,

is the right advice to give,

because that's what goes

in, day in, day out,

through the whole of the UK.

You know, and that's the way that

buildings should respond.

So...

I just don't want to do anything

to jeopardise the inquiry.

It's really important to me

that people get answers.

You question yourself for weeks

and months afterwards,

"Did I do everything?

Could I have pushed a bit harder?

Could I have done

anything different?"

As long as you can answer those

questions honestly to yourself

and know that you couldn't have

pushed any harder and know that

you did do everything you could,

and, literally, went out of your way

as much as possible to help those

people, which I did,

and I'm happy and confident that

I did, then at least

whether the guilt is there

or not, I can square that

away as unwarranted.

For me, you know, it is about

knowing that people gave their all.

I saw firefighters who were lying

on the ground, exhausted,

completely and utterly drained.

And yet, within ten minutes,

they wanted to go back

in and recommit and do it all again.

Because everybody just had that

absolute sheer sense of purpose.

My breaths were too few.

My body exhausted.

Now mentally, too.

The silence of death...

Immediately after Grenfell,

Ricky wrote a poem to try to make

sense of what happened.

It's now been made into a video

to get the message out further.

One firefighter's feelings

shared by many, no doubt,

about the impact of the fire.

I just felt broken.

Heartbroken by what had happened,

heartbroken to think

about the people that had suffered.

Heartbroken that I couldn't do more.

So I don't think I'll ever...

Sort of, you know, square

Grenfell away as, "Oh,

I'm fine about that," I won't ever

be fine about it.

I don't think anyone will.

Cape Town - one of the most

beautiful cities in the world -

is on the brink of crisis: a drought

so severe the city's taps

may run completely dry.

Years of unseasonably dry weather

means the sprawling city,

home to four million people,

could become the first major

metropolis to run out of water.

Experts believe unless residents

come together to radically reduce

the amount they use,

the taps and toilets

will run dry on April 12th.

It's an event the authorities

are calling "Day Zero".

Over the last two years, the city

has seen historically low rainfall,

with 153.5mm recorded

at Cape Town's airport

in 2017 compared to more

than 500mm in 2014.

If that happens, businesses say that

overnight they will have

to shut down or cut back on staff,

putting more pressure

on South Africa's stagnant economy.

The city's residents are already

heavily restricted on how much water

they can use and have been told

to cut down even more.

Well, a short time ago

I spoke to the Premier

of Western Cape, Helen Zille.

She is the former leader

of the Democratic Alliance and has

been in charge of the Cape Town

region as both Mayor

and Premier for over a decade.

I asked her what she expects

will happen in the city

when Day Zero hits.

Well, first of all, we are trying

to prevent Day Zero,

for all we're worth.

But, when the dams are,

on average 13.5% full,

we will announce Day Zero.

That means that the taps to much

of Cape Town will be switched off

and we will have to rely

on the distribution and the fetching

of water for people to have drinking

water in their homes.

Do you actually think the taps

in Cape Town will run dry then?

Well, there is a chance of that.

There's no doubt about that.

We're not too far from 13.5%, now.

We're at 26% and we have a way to go

till the winter rains come.

So, unless every single person

cuts water consumption

for all their usages out

of the municipal system to under 50

litres per person per day,

we will hit Day Zero.

We're doing everything

we can to prevent it,

but that is the reality.

Our viewers will know that Cape Town

is a city of huge inequality.

There is enormous wealth, gardens

with sprinklers, swimming pools.

Is water still going

into those resources now?

Definitely not.

People are not allowed

to fill summing pools.

People have not been allowed

to water their gardens

for a very long time.

People have been very innovative.

What are we to make,

then, of these reports

of resentment of anger,

that some citizens feel about others

overusing their water,

refusing to modify their behaviour?

Yes, there is a lot of anger, and I

can understand that, absolutely.

You know, South Africans

are very good in pulling

together in a real crisis.

But our back has got to be

against the wall,

before we can read

the writing on it.

What I'm saying to South Africans

now, especially Capetonians,

is that our backs

are against the wall,

is that our backs are against

the wall, and let's do what we've

done many times before in Cape Town

and in South Africa,

particularly, and pull ourselves

out of the hole we've

dug by our bootstraps.

You have said in the past

that this is a challenge that

exceeds anything a major city has

had to face anywhere in the world

since World War II or 9/11.

Is that hyperbole or do you believe

it's that serious, now?

Well, I believe running out

of water is that serious.

There are four and a half million

people in Cape Town.

If municipal water systems run

dry in a city of this

size, it is serious,

and it is that serious.

I'm not saying it's

bigger than 9/11, but I'm

saying it poses as much

of a challenge as a catastrophe such

as 9/11 did, but in

a completely different way.

So, that's why we have all hands

on deck, but we have more time

to prepare than they did at 9/11

and that's what makes a difference

and we have to be prepared.

Do you have a message,

at this point for Western leaders,

for your leaders watching this,

to try and understand

the gravity of the situation?

My message is simply this:

we have to keep our water

consumption until the rains come

and even after the rains have

come, to below 50 litres

per person, per day.

This drought could never

have been foreseen.

The South African Weather Services

have said to me that their models

don't work any more,

in an era of climate change.

The climate change projections

were to have hit us in 2025.

They came ten years before that.

This is very real

and very challenging.

And we all have to pull together,

when the experts can't predict

anything any more, and we have

to make sure that we control

what we can control,

which is our own behaviour.

And make sure we are ready

for Day Zero and that we're

pulling together as,

really, South Africans can

do, when they need to.

Earlier this evening,

the death was announced

of Mark E Smith, founder,

frontman and sometimes

fearsome capo of the British

post-punk rockers The Fall.

He was 60.

Mark E Smith was one of many

stars-to-be who attended

a near-mythical Sex Pistols gig

in his native Manchester in 1976,

and decided a career

in music was for him.

Through four decades,

and more than 30 albums,

Smith was the one constant

in The Fall, parting company

with more than 50 band

members and entourage,

including a number of his own wives.

Many fellow musicians have

been offering tributes

to Smith this evening,

though it's doubtful if any

of them will quite compare

to his own farewell to his champion,

the late DJ John Peel.

That made for one of the truly

memorable Newsnight moments,

as Stephen Smith reports.

I came top in English, like, two

years on the run and they never

thought it was me. I like that, it

was good being a Smiths, you get

away with murder, you know.

Even by the standards of punk, from

which The Fall emerged, Mark E Smith

was unlikely front man.

Let me tune

it up. Just play it. Couldn't play

an instrument, couldn't dance and

with a vocal style once described as

a unique one note delivery somewhere

between amphetamine spiked rant and

alcohol Yadav yarn --

alcohol Yadav yarn -- alcohol

yaddled yarn.

But he outlasted

almost all of his contemporaries,

becoming a unique and influential

figure in British music and culture.

He was the one constant of The

Fall's line-up. By one estimate, the

band got 366 members in its four

decades or so. Smith said he was the

only man apart from Kalex Mac prince

who could recruit talent off the

street. -- apart from Prince.

As for his songwriting, one critic

called it a kind of northern English

magic realism that mixed industrial

grime with the North Lake that with

the unearthly and the uncanny.

-- mixed industrial grime with the

unearthly. The former champion by

the Radio 1 DJ John Peel on it was

inevitable that grub turned to Smith

went John Peel died in 2004 -- that

Newsnight turned to Smith. He became

obsessed with The Fall from various

points, he played endlessly and

endlessly, must have been an

incredible compliment.

What, for The

Fall?

Yeah.

Yeah. Me and John had an

agreement, we were never friends or

anything like that. This is what I

admired about him, he was always

objective. People forget that.

I'm

interested to know what you thought

of his programme, Mark? When you

listened to it, presumably you

listen to it a lot.

I listened to it

in the early 70s when I was a

teenager and that. And I heard a lot

of Jamaican staff and German staff

through him. -- German

.

He seemed to find something for

every generation including The Fall?

Am I allowed to speak now?

Yeah, go

ahead.

Yeah, whatever you say. Are

you the new DJ?

Yeah, probably,

probably.

Truth be told, an interview with

Mark E Smith was sometimes even more

enjoyable than a new album. In one

of his last interviews, Smith said

"People still cross the road from

me, I've still got that, I can clear

a pub when I want to, it's a

talent".

I'm joined now by Tim Burgess

from The Charlatans.

He was a close friend

of Mark E Smith and he's with us

on Skype from Cheshire.

It's very nice of you to join us.

Manchester and Salford boys, you

must be feeling this very deeply

tonight?

I'm gutted. It's a

really... You know, if they really

sad night to night. -- it's a really

sad night tonight.

He was such a

character. We saw him at his best or

maybe you think at his worst in the

Newsnight Ndidi but he took so much

pleasure in that cantankerous nurse

and rebelliousness -- Newsnight

interview.

He was always

unpredictable. I have loved The Fall

since I was 15 years old. They had

been there all my life. Mark has

been there all through my life. So,

you know, it's really sad news. I

did get to know him. You know, we

became friends. You know, I would

just sit and listen to his stories,

really. He's just fascinating. You

know, quoting Nietzsche one minute

and then scrounging a cigarette the

next minutes. His favourite artist

was Weird Al Yankovich and he really

meant it.

He drew on everything and

he used a lot of poetry, he was very

lyrical. And sci-fi came into his

work as well, didn't it? Was there

anything he didn't touch?

No. You

know, every lyric is just pure gold,

really.

What do you make of that

idea, Steve was counting up the band

members he'd lost along the way. But

he used that amazing phrase that he

could recruit from the street. What

was that? Was that a very personal

approach? Or was it something that

he spotted in other people?

Because

he is a nonmusician, I think to find

a rawness in other people, that

helped him propel his vision. You

know, he was always in the present.

You know, he, kind of, you know,

always relevant. And I think... That

one of the reasons.

John Peel

described The Fall is always

different and always the same. I

wonder if you can, sort of, unpick

that's for us, how do you hear that?

Well, any time I ever spent time

with him he would always ask what my

dad did. Or what does your dad too.

I obviously told him he worked in a

chemical factory but he always used

to find that really important. I

always used to... You know, I

wouldn't feel satisfied that I've

had a proper conversation with him

unless he asked me that question.

I

guess, in some ways, we know he

stopped touring and his death was

not completely unexpected, but, give

us, if you can, your sense of the

memory or the phrase, I don't know,

the look that will remain with you

from his friendship.

Just... Well...

I mean... I'll always think of him

as a genius.

I can't really say much more than

that. Smiling.

Laughing in the pub.

It's great to

speak to you, thank you.

You are

welcome.

That's all we have time for.

I will be back tomorrow. I hope to

see you then. Goodbye.