Episode 5 Nolan Live

Tonight, a special Nolan

team investigation into

the Northern Ireland names we've

discovered in the Paradise Papers.

And, on the 30th anniversary of one

of the worst atrocities

of the Troubles, we'll be talking

to some of the people

who were caught up in the terrible

events of the Enniskillen bomb.

The big story this week, of course,

is the revelations coming out

of the so-called Paradise Papers,

and we've been hearing

about the various tax-dodging celebs

and super-rich putting their money

offshore to avoid paying their tax.

The Nolan Show has had access

to millions of leaked documents

as part of the global investigation

by the International Consortium

of Investigative Journalists,

and we have been concentrating

on the Northern Ireland angle -

people from here who have been

involved in these schemes

in places like Mauritius.

We had a massive reaction

to this from our listeners

on the radio this morning,

and we'll be running more detailed

revelations on radio over the course

of the next few days.

Welcome to a corner this is a

beautiful Ireland to track burn you

do. It is a lot more than just a few

pretty beaches. This place attracts

billions of dollars from all across

the globe. From the super-rich to

big business. This week, the BBC's

panorama have been leading a site

about how the super-rich have been

pulling their money off shore and

avoiding paying tax. Our Nolan Show

investigation finds that many from

Northern Ireland were also involved

in similar schemes, one of those

islands is six and a half thousand

miles away. The CV of the first name

we are looking at boasts of

having... David chick on the right

here has been in on the board for

the last 20 years, the last seven as

the club chairman. David resigned in

1997, but today, he is still the

club is my president and a

significant shareholder. He is also

one of Northern Ireland's most

successful property developers. Here

are years with the property

development minister at the opening

of the re-furbish tobacco factory.

Along with his business partner Jim

Davis, David transformed this

building would be help of £1.3

million of taxpayer's money. He was

not so keen on paying tax.

companies in Mauritius.

But then he needed £600,000 back

to help develop a site

in County Down for another

of his businesses.

So their UK company took a loan

from another seemingly

unconnected offshore company.

But that money was then paid

back, to the lender,

not by the Northern Ireland firm,

but by Mr Chick's Mauritian company.

The effect was moving money

from Mauritius to the UK without any

UK tax being liable.

We've seen documents that

show Mr Chick's advisers

had warned him that,

if he transferred the money back

into the UK as cash rather

than a loan, it would have been

liable for 45% tax.

On £600,000, that would have been

a tax bill of £270,000.

Now, although Jim Davis

benefited from this loan,

it went into the Northern Ireland

property company he had a stake

in with David Chick.

We do not have evidence that

Mr Davis avoided tax

by this transaction.

His role was assisting Chick

in flushing money out of this

Mauritian company tax-free.

Neither Mr Chick nor Mr Davis

wanted to talk to us.

But their lawyers told us

in a statement that: "Every

individual is entitled

to order his or her tax affairs

in a tax-efficient manner".

Mr Chick's lawyer also said he had

acted on specialist legal advice

with regard to the loan,

and would not have proceeded

if there was any suggestion

that it was not entirely legitimate.

Their lawyers advised Mr Chick

and Mr Davis not to talk to us,

but I tracked down David Chick

outside his offices in Belfast.

Stephen Nolan from the BBC, the

£600,000 that you brought home from

Mauritius, Mr Check, have you told

HMR see it is your money? Have you

told them it is your money? This

building, Mr check, do you not think

they should pay this money back? The

loan that you took out, do you have

any intention to pay this back? Any

intention whatsoever? You said that

you have got influence of the very

top of Government, who was that you

are talking about, Mr Check? Surely

the taxpayer is entitled to some

answers. Have you any tension of --

any intention of letting the

taxpayers have money back?

Pay back

the loan? I took advice from

lawyers.

Have you paid that money

back the yet, misty Chick? Have you

anything to say?

To make it clear,

Mr Chick said he did have intentions

to pay it back.

Chris Butler has

been looking through documents with

us. What else have we discovered?

Plenty more information about people

and money from Northern Ireland in

the Paradise Papers, in fact, one of

the many schemes operating in the

Mauritius, here is something for

you, over a quarter of the companies

from here.

We covered one of those

stories in detail on the radio this

morning. It is time to meet the

Antrim couple Sam and Julie McRae,

spring farm architectural mouldings

and -- limited, is their business.

They have been on TV before. We can

give the customer exactly what they

want.

So, that is Sam McCrea, his

wife was also on the telly. She was

clearly very proud of their

company's success.

We are constantly

looking at everything, re-evaluating

it, making sure that things are

working properly.

Now once again the

Company finds itself nominated for

the excellence award and in this

cause Northern Ireland they are

hoping they will have to find even

more room in the trophy cabinets.

They have had hundreds of thousands

of pounds of taxpayers money. Paying

tax, they are rather less keen. In

the Paradise Papers files we found

something particularly odd. The

large premises in Antrim was

estimated at being worth £4 million,

a multi-million pound company. --

property. The next year, they appear

to simply give it away. Documents

show £1 was paid for the

multi-million pound property. That

is a pound. They were seemingly not

connected with the property. It was

found it was bought by a company in

the Mauritius. Basically, that is a

bit like owning a house, giving it

away to someone and then paying them

rent for you using the house you've

just given them. It sounds mad,

doesn't it? Are not trying to avoid

tax.

Here is a key question. Was

this trust that basically had been

gifted this property really

independent? Reasonable answer is no

given what we have seen. Documents

show clear control with both

advising how that company should

spend its money. Even telling it to

buy shares from Sam McRae himself.

We have to scrub at the £200,000 was

transferred from that company

Mauritius into some great's bank

account, that was alone and

therefore not liable for tax. We

asked for a statement, but they

didn't want to talk to us. The

lawyers said the point is that we

put to them were untrue, to family

tree and particularly unpleasant

slurs on to people who have brought

prosperity and employment of the

Antrim area. They also said...

As for invest NI say they are aware

of it, but it is between them and

HMR see. They will be the case as

would be normal practice.

It is

important to say that tax avoidance

and what we have seen so far is not

illegal. Bank that, we know that.

What do you reckon, is there enough

that they pay as little pub tax as

possible or should we be making

people to pay their fair share for

schools and hospitals and public

services? Lets talk more generally

now, not talking about those

individual cases at all, this is

general. Charlie Wolf, is aggressive

tax avoidance acceptable?

If it's

legal, it's fair, that is their fair

share and they are keeping to the

law. Together perspective, the

lowest 50% of the population pays

9%. The money comes in in tax. The

lowest 50% pay 50% of the GDP.

Within that, that is two thirds, the

top 1%, 32% of all being come from

tax is paid by the top 1%. I don't

blame them, they are paying more

than enough and it was Adam Smith

who said... You don't even think it

is a moral? Not at all. The moral

parties is there an moral legation

to pay tax?

It is moral to fund your

Government.

Jim Clark you disagree,

you are the CEO of Oxfam or tell us

why?

What we saying is that there is

a grand scale tax evasion by

extremely wealthy individuals.

We

are talking about avoidance of

night, that is what we're talking

about.

Avoidance by multinational

corporations is ridding the rest of

us of the tax revenue that is needed

to pay for hospitals, essential

services, it is driving inequality.

We now know that the eighth

wealthiest people, they are all men,

in the world, they open their same

as the 6 billion poorest people.

Inequality has been driven extremely

and proven by this kind of

behaviour.

The question you're all

thinking a home, if you couldn't

gauge and tax evasion is... , could

you, would you?

To the audience?

It's not just individuals. In the

papers, it's shown that Oxford and

Oxford and Cambridge and plenty of

other colleges have...

I've not seen

the details about Oxford and

Cambridge, but on the issue of tax

evasion, -- tax avoidance, would

you?

Is bad enough in Northern

Ireland that the maintenance loan

that our kids can get is roughly

half of what English students can

apply for. So the Northern Ireland

parents are already disadvantaged.

In terms of tax avoidance, are you

for or against it?

If we're

struggling we are paying tax on our

earnings and we are finding out that

the portion of that money is being

put off shore for somebody else's

scheme, totally unfair.

That's come

over here, go ahead sir.

I'm a volunteer driver for cancer

focus, bringing people to hospital

for cancer treatment. We do

tremendous work supporting adults

and children.

Talk to me, tell me

what you think.

What is the

government going to do to clamp down

on all of those hoarding money

overseas to avoid paying tax?

Let me

come you down the front, I need you

to tell me what you think, not read

from a page full

how do you avoid

tax? I didn't study this stuff in

school. So how do you know?

APPLAUSE

If you could get away with it, would

you do it, honestly?

Yeah.

Why?

It's

more money for me. Why would I pay

for politicians that don't even do

anything? It's better if I have it.

The fact that much tax avoidance is

legal shows you there is something

very long with -- very wrong with

our society and that our government

and many governments across the

world share the interests of a tiny,

wealthy elite and not the ordinary

citizens of their countries. If the

UK Government was serious about

tackling tax avoidance, tax evasion,

and closing these loopholes, asked

yourself this, why did David

Cameron's government get rid of

11,000 HMRC staff, and why did

Theresa May as Prime Minister want

to get rid of 8000 more?

But they

can't close down every single

loophole, can they? Do you think the

individual citizen has a

responsibility to not milk it,

amoral aggregation?

Absolutely,

because we live in a society where

we are increasingly told that our

actions should not relate to the

consequences of every pound

squirrelled away in a tax haven in

Mauritius, Panama, the Cayman

Islands is a pound that isn't spent

in your NHS.

But that is just not

true. Your thesis is based on the

point that you can trust government

to be really efficient with our

money. Every pound would go into the

NHS. I tell you what, how many

pounds are wasted by governments and

bureaucracy and civil servants? Why

shouldn't the population hold on to

the very, very last penny that they

possibly can?

Well, tax avoidance is

legal, whereas tax evasion is

illegal. Just because something may

be legal doesn't necessarily mean it

is immoral. To exploit legal

loopholes to withhold money that you

ought to pay as your fair share of

tax is not moral force of

but let's

talk reality. This is business. To

be clear, you are against tax

avoidance?

Where people should pay a

fair share of tax, but they don't,

that is morally wrong, and the

government has done a huge amount

over seven years to address this.

I

can't agree that the government has

done a huge amount. There are things

that can be done immediately. The

budget is coming up soon. Why do

these tax havens exist? They offer

no economic value in the 21st

century. What could be done in those

countries, especially the Crown

dependencies it, over the course of

the budget, you could say, we are

going to introduce a law that

exists, punishing the beneficial

owners of these customers.

At the

end, in the glasses. No, at the

back.

Tax avoidance, if you can do

it, why wouldn't you, at the end of

the day? There is Kelly a problem

with the entire tax system and the

fact that people wouldn't be

squirrelling away all of their money

if they didn't feel they had to. I

think what we should really be

looking at is flat rate tax system

that is completely, new locals in it

at all, pay your fair share,

everybody pays the same percentage.

-- no loopholes.

I am a young farmer

and I think for the last number of

years we have been through a rough

stage. Frankly, we don't get much

help Szabo -- much help so, if I can

avoid paying my fair share of tax,

why shouldn't I? I could pay an

accountant to do this for me.

It's a

depressing reality that what I hear

from many people in the audience is

an acceptance of the logic and

ideology of the super wealthy,

people like Rupert Murdoch, the

offshore non-dog people who control

the media. They want you to believe

that we should all be rugged

individuals. The fact is that we

require taxation because, as a

society, we collectively look after

each other.

But you have to have

some sort of income to tax. Who do

you think create income? These guys

create the wealth and money is fluid

and it moves so, if you want to tax

the hell out of these people, they

will take their money and go

elsewhere.

But go where?

Wherever!

You had to close these down

international, and you can do this.

By the way, these people do pay tax.

They still pay VAT and, what is it,

health insurance, etc.

The

difference is, Charlie, if you look

at some of the examples which we

have talked about on Nolan Live or,

indeed, panorama has looked at,

you've got the ordinary working man

and money comes out of their salary

and they have no choice. The tax and

national insurance is taken out.

Meanwhile, they watched some of

these other people and they are

moving money to Mauritius and then

lending it back, and there is no

finite state as to when they have to

pay for it but does that sound right

to you?

I did it. It can be done.

Hold on, I'll tell you why it was a

moral choice. I was offered a job by

a friend of mine many years ago. I

wanted to take the job until I

looked at the salary and said,

sorry, I'm not moving to London...

Basically, by having a non-Dom, I

was allowed to come over and then

that sort of money for that radio

station and make the sort of wealth

that would pay for itself.

It's not

going to pay for the ambulance or

the hospital. Or if you need the

police...

ALL TALK AT ONCE

These people in the audience are

paying it, not you.

I still paid

VAT, I still paid...

Everybody pays

VAT.

And I still do as well. I added

something to the economy that would

not have been added otherwise. I am

a small part, I admit it, but that

is why you will see government is

reaching out to companies and making

deals and say, you have to pay tax.

It brings employment and wealth.

People create wealth.

Charlie is

peddling a tired, old argument that

greed is good, and it is a pathetic

argument. Do you trust people like

this? Sir Philip Green, who resides

in Monaco, just ordered himself a

£100 million yacht and lives a life

of opulence and wallows in his

riches. He left British Home Stores

pension fund empty, with a £500

million...

We are not talking about

Sir Philip Green tonight.

We are

talking about people in this country

who decide that they are going to

try to move their money to Mauritius

or wherever it is. And not pay the

standard rate of tax. The lowest

rate possible.

Give working tax

credits to the tune of £400 million

to the BHS staff because they were

not paid decent wages Dunn

but we're

not talking Philip Green tonight!

You are obsessed with that man!

If

they had taken the risk to create

the jobs that they are then paying

tax on, why should they be rewarded?

If you look at one of the cases we

are featuring on this show, Sam and

Julienne McCrea, you could very much

say that, that there are two people

who have created employment... I was

round talking to the PSNI in a

background briefing and they were

saying, look, there is employment

being created in this country, this

is a prosperous, successful

business. So are you saying, for the

owners of the company, you don't

actually care if Sam McCrea sells a

£4 million property for a pound and

the money ends up in Mauritius? You

don't care?

If it's legal.

These

companies are important, big

multinationals are employment, they

provide employment and so on. They

are being asked to pay their fair

share, not an exorbitant amount. But

so many of them are using loopholes

to avoid that. Ultimately, two

things happen. If there isn't enough

revenue, either we cut services or

ordinary people pay more.

32% of all

tax is paid by the top 1%. Is that

fair? It sounds a bit more than a

fair share.

Considering the top 1%

owned more than 50% of the whole

planet.

TALKING OVER EACH OTHER

This is so bogus.

If you could read

the sources of the material...

I

know, I know...

TALKING OVER EACH OTHER

It is a bogus guilt trip to try and

divide the population. If it makes

these people your friend and he

realised that tax rates and tax

revenue are different things, and

you lower tax rates, you get more

revenue. It's been proven time and

time again.

TALKING OVER EACH OTHER

Theresa May is going to carry on

with the policies we have intimated

for seven years. What has happened

is, over the last seven years, the

government has secured an additional

£160 billion, which would have been

lost in tax evasion, tax avoidance

and noncompliance. £160 billion is

more than the annual budget of the

NHS. That's been achieved. Another

thing that has been achieved, is

that it requires international

agreements to deal with this, and

the UK has been a key driver. 100

countries are signed up to

exchanging...

Hasn't the Tory party

cut the HMRC budget? Reed last year,

HMRC brought in an extra £500

billion from the wealthiest in

society. The guy with his hand up.

I

can hear a lot from the American guy

and this other guy. All the

multinationals, they can go ahead

and go to any country, put their

money in, what tax do they pay? It's

nice to say, oh, they are corporate

countries and they employ lots of

people, but they still make

megamoney. But the working man, what

does he do? He pays 20% of tax.

Are

you angry?

Very angry. I am retired

and I pay 20% tax on my pension.

Why? And I pay for my health. And I

pay for this and that.

Maybe you

should send it all out to Mauritius.

Maybe I should, if I had the chance.

But apparently princes and

businesses and international people

and sportsmen and everybody else can

do this. And they get away with it.

Go ahead.

The fact of the matter is

that it's increasing inequality. You

are talking about the statistics of

the top 1% paying more, but that's

because the bottom percent is

getting more and more worse off. If

we were more equal, we would all be

paying more equal tax, so this is

progressive.

So you do something

simple, a flat tax. Everybody pays

the same thing, you get rid of the

loopholes.

That is also a regressive

tax plan.

But you're talking about

the quality of you separate, 13, 15,

whatever it is, maybe have half a

dozen reductions and that's it.

Remember, people at that end of the

scale don't have to get paid, all

right? At that end of the scale...

Customer grabbed what of the scale?

Rupert Murdoch or whatever, you

don't have to get paid.

What's your

point?

If you want control and you

get them to pay, make it simple, 15%

for everybody, no loopholes.

I'd

like to ask, is this money not meant

to be our money, not your money? Are

we not meant to be here as a

collective rather than speaking like

Milton Friedman back in the old

days?

How did you feel about tax

avoidance? How do you feel about

some of the tax avoidance stories we

have brought into the public domain

this week?

It's ridiculous. I pay my

fair share and I am happy to do that

because I believe in the ideology

that it's being invested back into

my country and my area. That's what

it's therefore, not for you and your

own personal development.

The last

two audience contributions have hit

the nail on the head. The people who

create the wealth are not the people

sitting on the decks of super

yachts. It's you, the ordinary

citizens that get out and go to

work. You talk about the

contribution of these lofty

super-rich, whose wealth trickles

down for the minimum wage is now £7

50 in the UK. If it had risen at the

same rate since 1999 as the top 100

CEOs of UK FTSE companies, the

minimum wage would now be closer to

£20 per hour. You are being robbed

and the government you are rejecting

is making it legal robbery. You want

comeback don't you? How about the

favourite non-Dom, Lord Ashcroft?

I'm not here to comment on

individual cases.

HMRC has

requested... You just said you'd

like the Government to get tough.

I'm not going to prejudge an

investigation which is underway by

HMRC.

How tough has Theresa May been

on Lord Ashcroft?

I just told you,

I'm not going to prejudge an

investigation that is ongoing.

You

said earlier this is the question of

morality not legality.

There is also

a decision between the political and

the judicial. I'm not going to

prejudge an investigation into

possible wrongdoing.

Would you

distance yourself from Lord

Ashcroft?

I have no knowledge of the

individual case.

Do you watch

panorama?

I have no interest. The

proper authorities will investigate

that properly. I want to make what

is a substantial point, labour talks

about this issue. They talk and talk

and talk. In the last Parliament,

they've forced three measures to be

withdrawn...

What you talking about?

Ashcroft was top Ashcroft. When the

ordinary punter, when the ordinary

man or woman sees Ashcroft sending

his money, banning his money off way

he does and you try and wriggle away

from talking about it because you

don't want to talk about the

legality of it, come on, front. Did

it look right to you?

It's not

feathers on one was confronted on

the street.

Do you think it is

moral?

They should not be tried and

convicted by a television audience.

I want to the point...

I thought you

just said that Labour need to answer

questions.

If I can get to that

point.

You can get to that point if

you tell us about Mr Ashcroft. I

started a point I intended to finish

it. Were talking about Lord

Ashcroft. Dear, dear, dear.

One of

which would have prevented companies

from shifting losses overseas. To

avoid corporation tax. These are

practical methods which can be used

to address this issue. 75 measures

announced are implemented over the

past seven years by the Conservative

Government. Labour talks a good

game, but when it comes to practical

measures, they are not delivering.

The former law German non-Donald

Ashcroft hidden toilet when he was

question. What would Labour do? We

would do this, summary said earlier

that we have no trust in

politicians. Your right not to have

trust. What we should do is expose

MPs who are offshore. Let's expose

the tax affairs of all are members

of Parliament be opened and

transparent. HMRC was cut in staff

by 11,000, is that correct? Yes. OK,

are you serious about dealing with

tax evasion?

Only not talking about

revenue going into public services?

Have given various statistics about

money being recouped.

You've cut

20,000 police, you've cut fire

stations. You're inflicting cuts on

ordinary citizens while your former

party chairman doesn't pay tax in

this country. That's disgusting and

your backed up by a tabloid press

which doesn't pay tax in this

country.

It's important to remember

that the Tory Government of 12 set

it around here, do the people of the

north really get that money back?

That money is then by the British

Government, who are ripping money

out of this place left, right and

centre.

Who ripped this money out of

this place?

The British Government.

Ackley, it is a lot more than what

they get per head any other part of

the United Kingdom.

I'm not talking

about... The British Government

becoming serious about taking money

away, taking money out of tax

avoidance. The money is not going to

be coming back here. I want to take

one more comment, then we will move

on.

I want to say to people like

Charlie, the public sector doctor,

nurse, they can't afford tax, but

they are the people who are going to

save your life at the end of the

day, all my life, so why do you not

feel like you need to pay the fare

share because these are the same

public sector workers who have not

seen a pay rise in numerous years

gone by. They deserve a lot more

than 1%, and their share of wages.

Let me let Charlie respond to you. I

didn't hear what they said.

The

direct question was if you are

working at a hospital, they have to

pay their tax and they deserve a pay

rise.

Sure they do. I would love to

give them a pay rise, if there is

money.

Nada becomes out of your

taxes.

You can't say they deserve a

pay rise as they have been dominated

by Tory austerity cuts. You can't

expect them to save your life.

People like you aren't going to pay

your taxes.

As you feel about the

stories that we've demonstrated of

tax avoidance in Northern Ireland?

I

care about doctors and nurses, I

know public service workers, if I'm

going to go out and pay my taxes to

pay their wages, I want them to be

on the same team as me, I don't want

people funding grievance breading

greed by saying I don't feel like I

need to pay my fair share.

I'll give

you... Know, we're done. Thank the

panel. Thank you.

Now, it's been a difficult day

for many across Northern Ireland

today, in particular for the people

of Enniskillen because,

as you know, today is the 30th

anniversary of one of the worst

atrocities of the Troubles.

30 years ago... 11 people died that

day and over 60 people were injured.

A 12th victim, Ronnie Hill, lay in a

coma for 13 years. Before passing

away. Stephen Ross was just 15 at

the time of the bomb, every bone in

his face was shattered, he lost most

of his teeth and his legs were

broken by falling masonry. Stephen

was with his father who was killed

in the bomb, his dad was decapitated

by the blast. Helen Bonner was

heavily pregnant back in 1987 and

was 100 yards from where the bomb

went off that day. With her

two-year-old son in a pram. Her

daughter, Catherine, was born two

weeks later and is about to turn 30.

She is with us in the audience

tonight. It's horrendous, obviously,

when you think back to what has

happened to people. We see you in

that film, you are a victim 's

campaign. When you look back at what

happened that day, what are your

memories?

Member memories are very

vivid. Unavailable what I saw that

day. I was standing in the Senate

off with my dad, I remember police

officer. He knew him because my dad

served and took early retirement due

to ill-health, he was only 49 years

of age. My -- I said who was that,

and I never got the answer. I was

knocked unconscious and when I came

round I tried to move and I was

buried to the knees, couldn't move.

My first thought was where is my

dad? I looked down to my right and I

saw a body, didn't recognise him as

my father, buried, covered in

rubble, dust, daybreak, I only

recognise him because of his shiny

signature shoes and I knew right

away that was him. He was

decapitated, his head was gone from

just above his left eyebrow. I knew

he was dead.

Thankfully, he didn't

suffer. People sometimes talk about

drawing a line under the past. When

you see... This is a brutal

question, but you are living with

this. And some people are not. When

you see your father and some of his

head is blown away, how do you ever

recover from that?

Has been a tough

30 years, Stephen, if I'm brutally

honest. It's been very, very tough.

I've got a fantastic wife, Sharon,

who has cared for me during it. I

was very lucky that they with my

injuries, but my condition worsened

over the months and years

afterwards, I'll was diagnosed with

Syria toccata rightist -- with

arthritis and it is very difficult

to see your father lying beside you

as an 18-year-old, brutally

murdered, along with 11 other

innocent citizens. Life has been

very difficult. I had to give up

work due to ill-health and I suffer

on a daily basis. It is a constant

reminder. As I wake up in the

morning in severe pain until I get

medication, I get a twinge, it is a

constant reminder back until that

fateful day.

Do you forgive who

didn't?

Forgiveness is a difficult

word. Nobody has said that they feel

remorse for the killing of tee one.

Sorry to interrupt, but this is your

dad we are looking at now. It is

very -- killing of Enniskillen.

Forgiveness for me is honestly,

truthfully, hand on my heart, I

cannot forgive them, unless they

came and pleaded for forgiveness

from me. Personally, I couldn't give

them -- forgive them. Some people in

the audience might find that hard to

accept, but that's how I feel. It's

very very raw. Today was very

emotional, even though it is 30

years on. Once your question, I

don't think I could ever forgive.

I

know you do forget, Stephen Ross,

you were 15 years old when you are

injured in the bomb. You are buried

under the rubble, Stephen.

Not just

buried, Stephen, it's a miracle I am

alive today because it took five or

six people to lift a slab of

concrete, and heavyweight piece of

concrete on me, I was curled up in a

ball underneath it.

To go through

that experience... Do you remember?

Very vividly.

I hope this doesn't

sound like a stupid question. What

is the sensation in your human body

when you are buried in the rubble?

The sensation is more when you are

pulled out? All you can taste is

blood, concrete, screaming, your

heart is in your mouth, your teeth

are gone. You are thinking what has

happened to me? What condition and

iron? It is shocking. It when you

are more conscious that you reflect

on how much pain you have to go

through. Those days and the initial

period in the first week in

intensive care were so painful to

sit through those times and reflect

on Jim Dixon who was pleading with

nursing staff to let him die and

Ronnie Hill, lapsing into a coma

that lasted 13 years to let --

before he died. It's painful, but

what gives me hope is that as a

Christian, my sense of justice isn't

based on right and wrong on my

opinion, and forgiveness is an issue

that I can release. As is said, it

is up to the people to ask for it.

The media took that to mean I figure

it.

Do you forgive the people?

I

have no bitterness against the

people who did this to me. None.

What benefit is that to me? Is a

Christian, I have been forgiven a

lot. Whether is eager -- they seek

that forgiveness is another

question. I have done that, I

genuinely, looking at the audience,

saying that from the heart, that if

you can genuinely forget someone,

you should say it, if you can't,

then don't.

What does a dude you

long-term, psychologically? You

could let something like this being

bereaved and injured over sectarian

violence, let the anger consume you.

You've got to let the human emotion.

Anger is a visitor. It shouldn't be

a resident in your life and you

could let something like this become

total asphyxiation, becoming your

sole question I too feel angry or

seek retribution. -- is to feel. Is

that going to undo the suffering he

went through?

You are at the Senate

off that day. With your two-year-old

son.

Yes, I left the house that

morning, it was funny because

Stephen, my two-year-old son, he

would usually be awake very early

that morning and he had been that

morning but because I was so tired

because I was so pregnant, I pushed

him back into bed and then I had to

wake him after ten o'clock. I got

out, walked down to town and I was

heading towards it and I saw a woman

standing with a red coat and I

thought, that is my mother, I headed

towards her. Just as that happened,

the bomb went off and all I could

think of was, is my mother dead? How

am I going to have my second child

without my mother about? I just

couldn't believe what I had seen.

What do you think your brain

captured when the bomb went off?

I

just couldn't believe what happened,

that a bomb could have been planted

at the centile and nobody saw it. I

didn't realise it was in the Reading

rooms. I was just totally stunned.

-- planted at the Cenotaph. In a

state of despair. At the time, I

didn't know that my father was

there. I thought he was back down

behind, going to parade, but he was

actually at the Cenotaph that day.

What do you think of the people who

could do that, who could plant the

bomb there, walk away and not really

care about how many people they

killed? Indeed, the more people they

killed, maybe the better. That's

maybe held their minds would think

that's just it. I feel they are very

warped people, and I can't

understand where they get their

mentality from, how you can do that

to another human being. If you

killed a dog on the road, you'd feel

so sick about it. How you can do

that to human beings is

unbelievable, for absolutely no

reason. I just think it's really

terrible, what happened.

You said

you were pregnant at the time with

your daughter, Catherine. Catherine

is there, isn't she?

Yes, in the

front row.

Hi, Stephen.

I was

reading about your mum and your

story and, if your mum hadn't have

stopped to talk to someone, you

might not be here today.

That's

right. Looking back, I've been a

mother myself. I really wire lies --

realise how lucky I am.

I just saw a

cloud of smoke. I stopped to talk to

somebody, that's correct.

And that's

why you didn't go closer to the

bomb.

One reason was because Stephen

slept in, which he wouldn't normally

do, and secondly I stopped to talk

to somebody, and that obviously was

the reason why I wasn't so close,

because I intended to head towards

the woman with the red coat.

Thankfully, it wasn't my mother. I

discovered her afterwards. She was

sitting in church, very calm, which

is unlike her. I was shocked.

Thankfully, it wasn't her. I met

Peter Wilson the time he lost his

sister and he asked me if I had seen

his father and his sister, Marie

Wilson. Everybody was running about

in despair.

It was... There was an

issue today, Stephen Port, which no

doubt will be talked about. Do you

want to give us a sense of what

happened today when the memorial was

unveiled? And then, that's the

memorial being unveiled... All 12

names of those who died on that

memorial.

In the name of the Father,

the son and the holy spirit, I

dedicate this memorial in

everlasting and loving memory...

And

yet, Stephen, these pictures of the

memorial being removed. How do you

feel about that?

Very hurt, let down

would be an understatement. This has

been in the planning since the 25th

anniversary, and the Ely Centre, the

victims group in Enniskillen, did a

feasibility study a couple of years

ago with the families and different

people, and the time was right to

have a permanent, lasting memorial

to the victims. He will say, why do

you need a memorial? The names are

on the Cenotaph. I was always

against the names on the Cenotaph.

These people work for civilians who

were ordered -- who were murdered.

With Enniskillen families names on

the war memorial, in a war, to get

back to your point...

Just to

explain, the reason why that

memorial was removed, it was an...

-- the lad was owned by the church.

And they are saying there was no

permission for the memorial to be

there. They would say that they

recently received the request and

that they will give its

consideration in the longer term.

Did that hurt you, seeing it

removed?

Yes, it hurt all of the

families. It's taken the whole focus

away, why we were there today for

the 30th anniversary. We applied for

planning permission in January. Six

months of consultation. All the key

holders, stakeholders were

complained. Planning was passed in

July, so we thought, green light, go

ahead. The money that came from this

memorial came from all over the

world, charitable donations. It

funded the memorial. And then all of

a sudden, about six weeks ago, we

hit a brick wall.

We will all be

staying across that story but, in

the meantime, given our guests a

round of applause.

Obviously, anything is that we do in

the programme tonight, it pales into

insignificance, and I totally get

that, but we are going to move on.

If you're a football fan,

and even if you're not,

it can't have escaped you that both

Northern Ireland and the Republic

have huge games this week that

could see them both qualify

for the first time for

the World Cup in Russia.

So what we want to do

is see if there are fans

who will support both teams.

We've even designed our own

special Nolan T-shirt.

Look at that. Would you be prepared

to swing both ways? I don't know. We

have a sense that we got quite a

fuse swingers in the audience

tonight. Look at this, you are

wearing the shirt already. What's

your name?

Shame.

Tell me why you

are happy to swing both ways.

I

don't know where you come from, who

you are, what you are and where you

are playing, as long as you get

along and support everybody.

Is it

not disloyal to a team? If you are

not a real football fan, does a real

football fan not support only one

team?

It works out great for me

because, if the Republic is playing,

will go to the pub and watch them.

If its Northern Ireland claim, we go

to the pub and watch them.

APPLAUSE

Brilliant! Whereof you from?

Best

brook.

And you are a swinger?

I am.

For how long? With this guy?

Oh,

yes.

And why are you not loyal to

one team.

It's better to like both

teams. What what do you mean,

bigger? Just support both teams.

Don't care about religion or out.

Just like football, mate. We decided

to go out onto the streets.

Backing our campaign already

is ex-player and legendary

pundit Eamon Dunphy.

In our football analyst for RTE. I

followed, like everybody, the

Northern Ireland journey in this

World Cup qualifiers. They've done

brilliantly. We hope, everybody

here, that they beat Switzerland and

that they come to Russia with us.

They do brilliantly in the Euros and

they have a great coach, Michael

O'Neill. For those reasons, I will

be swinging both ways.

Ex-Northern

Ireland defender Jerry Taggart is

live in Sheffield. Where are you,

Jerry? Good evening.

Good evening,

Stephen.

So you are a swinger?

Definitely, don't mind a bit of

swinging.

Tell us why.

Well, there

are a few reasons, and one reason

is, I just listened to one of your

guests giving this reason, but one

of the main reasons at this moment

in time is that obviously I played

under the current manager of the

Republic of Ireland, Martin O'Neill,

a proud northern Irishman, captain

of Northern Ireland. One of his

coaches is a good friend of mine who

I played with at Leicester.

Cut to

the chase, isn't it disloyal to

cuddle swing one way and then the

other? Is a real not -- is a real

football fan and not behind their

team whether they win, or draw?

Obviously, I want to see Northern

Ireland qualified for the World Cup,

first and foremost, but wouldn't it

be absolutely amazing if both

countries get through Chris Rock

do

you think both teams will get

through?

Who knows? What could be

worse than supporting England?

I

think we can all support you there!

We wanted to know how you all felt

this, so we sent Vinny out to speak

to fans of both persuasions and ask

them if they were interested in

swinging both ways.

Northern

Ireland.

Republic.

A serious

question. Would you consider

swinging both ways?

I'd like to see

both teams playing.

Both teams.

Both

teams.

Northern Ireland all the way.

Would you not wear this T-shirt?

Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland?

Would you swing both ways for

Stephen Nolan?

Not at all.

What

about for you?

Yeah, all right.

Republic.

Northern Ireland.

Do you

swing both ways?

I would definitely

swing both ways.

I'm eating a

doughnut.

I don't like football.

What better would you wear this

T-shirt? Would you support the

republic and swing both ways?

No,

I'm British.

Would you swing ways

for Stephen Nolan?

Not a chance! I

don't like him at all.

Northern

Ireland, Republic?

None, no.

You are

turning down this T-shirt. Would you

consider swinging both ways and

supporting both?

I don't know,

sorry.

Just say yes.

Guess.

I swing

both ways.

I swing both ways.

I

swing both ways.

I swing both ways.

What would you consider swinging

both ways and supporting the

Republic as well?

Why not?

Who,

Stephen Nolan?

No, I don't fancy

him.

Would you wear this T-shirt for

me?

Give them all a round of applause.

Wonderful. You can announce it on

TV. Are you a swinger?

Yeah.

Will

get you a T-shirt. Look, if you want

to follow our campaign, we're trying

to get a hashtag going, Nolan SPW.

If we can get that going, it would

be great on Twitter. We will follow

it on the radio show at 9am

tomorrow.

Right, that's it for another week.

Playing us out tonight,

the Lady Boys of Bangkok!

They have a show in Custom House

Square for the next ten nights.

Here they are, singing

Shout Out To My Ex.

# This is a shout out

to my ex

# Heard he in love

with some other chick

# Yeah, yeah, that hurt me,

I'll admit

# Forget that boy, I'm over it

# I hope she gettin'

better sex

# Hope she ain't fakin'

it like I did, babe

# Took four long years

to call it quits

# Forget that boy, I'm over it

# Guess I should say thank you

# For the hate yous and the tattoos

# Oh baby, I'm cool by the way

# Ain't sure I loved you anyway

# Go 'head, babe, I'mma

live my life, my life, yeah

# Shout out to my ex,

you're really quite the man

# You made my heart break

and that made me who I am

# Here's to my ex, hey,

look at me now, well, I

# I'm all the way up,

I swear you'll never bring me down

# Shout out to my ex,

you're really quite the man

# You made my heart break

and that made me who I am

# Here's to my ex, hey,

look at me now, well, I

# I'm all the way up,

I swear you'll never,

# You'll never bring me down

# Oh, I deleted all your pics

# Then blocked your

number from my phone

# Yeah, yeah, you took

all you could get

# But you ain't getting

this love no more

# Cos now I'm living so legit

# Even though you broke

my heart in two, baby

# But I snapped right

back, I'm so brand new, baby

# Boy, read my lips,

I'm over you, over you

# Guess I should say

thank you

# For the hate yous and the tattoos

# Oh baby, I'm cool by the way

# Ain't sure I loved you anyway

# Go 'head, babe, I'mma

live my life, my life, yeah

# Shout out to my ex,

you're really quite the man

# You made my heart break

and that made me who I am

# Here's to my ex, hey,

look at me now, well, I

# I'm all the way up,

I swear you'll never bring me down

# Shout out to my ex,

you're really quite the man

# You made my heart break

and that made me who I am

# Here's to my ex, hey,

look at me now, well, I

# I'm all the way up,

I swear you'll never

# You'll never bring me down

CHEERING