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We have an excellent show tonight. We have Jude Collins, or compare the | :00:11. | :00:20. | |
Boys' Brigade to dissident republicans. We will hear from | :00:21. | :00:27. | |
television presenter Anthea Turner and have music from Andrew Strong | :00:28. | :00:29. | |
from The Commitments. Hello. A well-known writer has | :00:30. | :01:02. | |
caused outrage by comparing the Boys' Brigade two young children | :01:03. | :01:08. | |
taking part in Republican marchers. He has refused to apologise. The | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
Boys' Brigade called it highly offensive and dangerous. We are | :01:13. | :01:20. | |
joined by Jude Collins and Christopher Stalford from the DUP. I | :01:21. | :01:32. | |
saw that at wheat had been re-tweeted which said, shocking | :01:33. | :01:44. | |
images of children at a parade. It had a picture of masked men with the | :01:45. | :01:53. | |
back to the camera. One girl was in a dress. More likely a young man. -- | :01:54. | :02:07. | |
battle dress. I thought it was wildly exaggerated. If there were | :02:08. | :02:16. | |
any, there was only one child. So half in jest, I replied. We can all | :02:17. | :02:43. | |
have a look at what you said. That was you comparing them to dissident | :02:44. | :02:50. | |
republicans. I said it was a bit like this. I think it was no more | :02:51. | :02:57. | |
exaggerated dust on the original comment. I said, are there any | :02:58. | :03:13. | |
elements of militarism in the Boys' Brigade. The fact of the matter is | :03:14. | :03:19. | |
that there are. The Boys' Brigade were founded at the end of the 19th | :03:20. | :03:28. | |
century. It was founded by someone who was a soldier. He drilled with | :03:29. | :03:35. | |
his men during the day and then he would take Sunday school. And the | :03:36. | :03:44. | |
boys were bored stiff. He thought he would introduce the same elements of | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
drilling and parading and marching into the Boys' Brigade. And it | :03:48. | :03:57. | |
worked like a dream. The Boys' Brigade is for sport, it is for fun. | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
To draw any type of parallel with Republican marchers. These masked | :04:03. | :04:13. | |
thugs in dissident regalia. You are doing this deliberately. You are | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
misunderstanding my point. I did not see from one moment that the Boys' | :04:20. | :04:22. | |
Brigade was a paramilitary organisation. No, but are you | :04:23. | :04:33. | |
arguing that it could be viewed as such. It is a history we're it draws | :04:34. | :04:45. | |
its success to the fact that William Smith combined Sunday school with | :04:46. | :04:52. | |
militaristic endeavours. You probably hear what the Boys' Brigade | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
answer was to this. This is the statement. You have not apologised. | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
This is what they said. I did not compel them to the masked | :05:03. | :05:19. | |
paramilitaries. I did not say that. The parallel I was drawing was the | :05:20. | :05:27. | |
effect of these paramilitaries on perhaps these young children. It is | :05:28. | :05:34. | |
the effect of paramilitaries. And there are effects of having a | :05:35. | :05:42. | |
structure of the Boys' Brigade which has elements are trappings of | :05:43. | :05:49. | |
militarism. The effect is that the Boys' Brigade is an organisation | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
which if exists for the youth. I was in the Boys' Brigade for 15 years. | :05:56. | :06:03. | |
The people who I encountered, the leaders of it, were the most decent | :06:04. | :06:10. | |
people I have ever encountered. There will be thousands of people | :06:11. | :06:13. | |
whose children are in the Boys' Brigade. I absolutely defend Jude | :06:14. | :06:25. | |
Collins to have the right to see what he said. Many people will be | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
deeply hurt by what he said. The comparison between the Brigade and a | :06:31. | :06:41. | |
bit like this, the words you use,. When we talked on the radio earlier | :06:42. | :06:47. | |
today, you said you were not drawing a direct comparison. I accept that. | :06:48. | :06:54. | |
I think the comparison is so vulgar and so wrong that you should just | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
admit that you got it wrong. You should say sorry. As far back as the | :07:00. | :07:09. | |
1930s, there were people who had severe doubts about the elements of | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
militarism within the Boys' Brigade. The success of the organisation in | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
the first place was William Smith introducing elements of drilling. | :07:20. | :07:27. | |
But we'll know in 2016. Surely it is about kids doing something other | :07:28. | :07:37. | |
than hanging around honesty corner. -- on a street corner. I know many | :07:38. | :07:47. | |
people who have had very helpful and positive memories of the Boys' | :07:48. | :07:54. | |
Brigade. But there is the military in structure. In 2006, the Sunday | :07:55. | :08:04. | |
teams carried a report which said the Boys' Brigade was going to do | :08:05. | :08:11. | |
eight ?215,000 rebranding to rid itself of the image of militarism. I | :08:12. | :08:19. | |
have two C, over the course of this, your attempts to defend what you | :08:20. | :08:27. | |
have said have become more pronounced that you actually no | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
sound even more hostile towards the Boys' Brigade than you originally | :08:32. | :08:34. | |
dead. It is bizarre. It is frankly bizarre. To be resorting to attacks, | :08:35. | :08:44. | |
which I think was slanderous on him as an organisation, which exist | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
forbidden from the benefit of the community. See if the state picked | :08:50. | :09:00. | |
up the tab for the amount of work these people do in the community, it | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
would cost an absolute fortune. Surely people being involved in | :09:06. | :09:12. | |
groups might actually discourage them to get involved in dissident | :09:13. | :09:19. | |
activities? The person with his hand up. The Boys' Brigade was founded on | :09:20. | :09:28. | |
the basis of Christianity -- Christianity. It is an insult to | :09:29. | :09:37. | |
decent law-abiding people what you have said. There is enough trouble | :09:38. | :09:40. | |
in this country without you trying to stir it up. I am not intending to | :09:41. | :09:52. | |
insult anybody. I know many people who have been in the Boys' Brigade | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
and who have enjoyed a completely positive experience. All I am saying | :09:57. | :10:02. | |
is through the deep decades, there is the militaristic element to it. | :10:03. | :10:13. | |
Like many Christian organisations, many of which were founded in the | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
Victorian and Edwardian times, there was an element of Christianity but | :10:18. | :10:24. | |
also a question of militaristic connection. I do not have a moral | :10:25. | :10:36. | |
objection to them. Do you think the Boys' Brigade is to militaristic? I | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
think if it is organised on the basis of militarism, I think it | :10:43. | :10:45. | |
would be better being done otherwise. It exists for good, the | :10:46. | :10:54. | |
organisation. The paramilitary groups exist for bad. But as the | :10:55. | :11:00. | |
marching and staff knocked out of the total date for the current model | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
planes? When I was in the Boys' Brigade, it was more of a uniform, | :11:07. | :11:15. | |
but it is more of the jumper that people we're there were days. For | :11:16. | :11:22. | |
any way for them to become clear that in a really weird was wrong. | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
But why should children be marching about anyway? It was founded on the | :11:28. | :11:36. | |
basis of Christian principle. It was the notion of discipline, | :11:37. | :11:45. | |
self-respect. William Smith was a man who came from a military | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
background and there is no denying that. But to draw comparisons | :11:50. | :11:56. | |
between the Boys' Brigade and organisations that exist for bad, I | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
really think you have got this badly wrong. What would you say to the | :12:01. | :12:09. | |
thousands of people out there who are offended by the comparison that | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
you drew that you are sorry. I am actually worth Jude Collins on this | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
one. The Boys' Brigade is very militaristic. What Tatum did you | :12:20. | :12:30. | |
address the person in charge of your unit? You called the captain. I do | :12:31. | :12:36. | |
not think it is necessarily bad, but I do think it is out of touch there | :12:37. | :12:46. | |
were days. It is effectively a military organisation. I think that | :12:47. | :12:52. | |
is a huge overreaction to this over nothing. | :12:53. | :13:01. | |
That is an interesting response. When usual men in masks and | :13:02. | :13:12. | |
dissidents and see the about like them, well you not put off? It is | :13:13. | :13:20. | |
military. That was the sense he was meaning. Actually, the Boys' Brigade | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
as a paramilitary organisation. For goodness sake! You for real, the | :13:26. | :13:37. | |
Boys' Brigade as a paramilitary organisation? It is not the meaning | :13:38. | :13:45. | |
of the word. It is any organisation that takes on the trappings of the | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
military. Both the Boys' Brigade take on a military standing. I fully | :13:52. | :14:00. | |
support both organisations, but they are military in organisation and | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
that is exactly just what he was seeing. Exactly. She has said that | :14:06. | :14:11. | |
better than I could. Please go ahead. I was a volunteer in both the | :14:12. | :14:22. | |
Boys' Brigade and the Guild Brigade. I think the comparisons are odious. | :14:23. | :14:30. | |
We do drill for about 15 minutes late and the boys really enjoy it. | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
It is all about instilling discipline and respect for the | :14:36. | :14:42. | |
leadership. To compare it to a paramilitary organisation is wrong. | :14:43. | :14:50. | |
What would you say, this is all about your lot throwing a hissy fit. | :14:51. | :14:57. | |
You were the one who invited me on to discuss this. | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
I was glad to come on and discuss this, because I was someone who was | :15:04. | :15:11. | |
a boy in the Boys' Brigade for 15 years, and the experience I had, and | :15:12. | :15:18. | |
the example but was said to us by the people that belonged to my | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
church but basically the people who ran our BB company, decent, upright | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
people who would never harm another human being, and for a comparison to | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
be drawn between an organisation like the Boys' Brigade and -- and an | :15:34. | :15:40. | |
organisation that -- like we saw at that recent event, I think is | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
grossly hurtful. The Boys' Brigade has said this is dangerous. O'Kane? | :15:46. | :15:52. | |
For those people who you have offended, do you think -- do you | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
apologise? I don't think I have anything to apologise for. I suspect | :15:57. | :16:04. | |
two things, one is there are people who if I said the sky was blue, they | :16:05. | :16:10. | |
would say I was a Fenian liar. Secondly... So you think people are | :16:11. | :16:19. | |
out to get you? No, that -- simply that there are people like that. | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
Secondly, I am simply trying to deal with what seems to me to be a fact | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
that this lady indicated. I can see that some people like Christopher | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
perhaps have very happy memories of their boyhood in the Boys' Brigade, | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
and I think some of those are hard because I seem to be trampling on | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
something they treasure as a childhood memory. Did any of your | :16:47. | :16:56. | |
relatives go through the BB? Your nephew or what have you? If you had | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
experience of the organisation you would see what a positive | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
organisation it is, and for you to draw this comparison, I think is | :17:05. | :17:12. | |
deeply offensive. I do not denigrate the BB, I am simply saying it has | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
militaristic elements, and I suspect it has some influence on the young | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
people who go through it. It's only ever been an influence for good. But | :17:23. | :17:29. | |
why would they start spending ?215,000 to rebrand the | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
organisation, if it was... Because youth organisations across the board | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
are declining in numbers. They suspected militarism was keeping | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
them back. Dude, I thank you for coming in. You got a lot of support | :17:45. | :17:53. | |
in this audience. -- chewed. -- Jude Collins. Let's move on, still to | :17:54. | :18:00. | |
come tonight, this gorilla had not attacked this child but he came this | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
close. The zoo shot the gorilla, but did it deserve to die? My next guest | :18:07. | :18:12. | |
was never off our screens as one of the biggest TV presenters in the | :18:13. | :18:19. | |
1990s, but she's been in the headlines recently after her divorce | :18:20. | :18:22. | |
and is here to tell us how she is ready to bounce back, ladies and | :18:23. | :18:33. | |
gentlemen, Anthea Turner. Hello! Get to see you. I thought they were | :18:34. | :18:42. | |
going to start on the Brownies, and then I would be really upset! | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
Sometimes guests say "What is this show?" You are fine. You are used to | :18:48. | :18:58. | |
so much telly over decades. What was really ought, I was walking round | :18:59. | :19:05. | |
the back of the screens here, and something you said, I went, oh my | :19:06. | :19:11. | |
goodness, this June, I have been in television for 30 years. 30 years! | :19:12. | :19:26. | |
Has it been a good ride? I think so, I just get up and do a job or get a | :19:27. | :19:32. | |
bit of work here or there. I don't see it as... I've never seen it as a | :19:33. | :19:39. | |
career actually. Come on! What were you, the second-highest paid start | :19:40. | :19:46. | |
in TV after Cilla Black? That is somebody out to make a career. I | :19:47. | :19:54. | |
don't think I earn that much. We are not on millions? If only I had been. | :19:55. | :20:00. | |
I would have been much better off. No, I remember reading some of these | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
figures that you are supposed to arm and thinking, if only. And | :20:05. | :20:11. | |
especially at GMTV, none of the figures bandied around were true. | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
But the silly thing was it was never in your interests to go "No, I am | :20:16. | :20:21. | |
not earning that at all, you can half it!" When we see -- said GMTV | :20:22. | :20:27. | |
to this Northern Ireland audience they immediately think of probably | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
the most popular presenter that there has ever been in Northern | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
Ireland, Eamon Holmes. Let's have a look at you two together. This is | :20:39. | :20:45. | |
going back quite a few years. The Independent has a lottery | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
special today. You may think this is Anthea's granny, but this is the | :20:51. | :20:56. | |
image of Anthea in the year 2015. 20 years from now, that could be you, | :20:57. | :21:05. | |
Anthea! It will never happen! " Has Anthea combed her hair this morning, | :21:06. | :21:12. | |
it looks a mess!" It is fine now. It is like having a Dulux dog beside | :21:13. | :21:19. | |
you. It all falls back into place. 20 years, something like that? | :21:20. | :21:26. | |
Absolutely. And the stories have all been well rehearsed that | :21:27. | :21:28. | |
behind-the-scenes while all the smiles were going on, you don't like | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
each other... What was it really like? They were widely -- while the | :21:34. | :21:39. | |
exaggerated. He could have been a bit grumpy in the morning, like a | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
lot of men. Do you know, it was so funny because obviously we kissed | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
and made up, here actually, in the studio. And I think like a lot of | :21:51. | :21:57. | |
these things, a lot is written in newspapers, there is a grain of | :21:58. | :22:03. | |
truth that gets exploded... He nicknamed you Princess Tippy toes. | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
Were you deserving of that? I called myself that. To this day, if I text | :22:09. | :22:23. | |
him or he texts me, it is Princess Tippy toes. What did you call him, | :22:24. | :22:30. | |
if it is not vulgar? It was Lorraine who started it, and I picked it up. | :22:31. | :22:40. | |
No, I can't! Now... No. And, there was a little bit of tension at the | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
time, for reasons which Eamon and I know about, between ourselves, and | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
they were a lot to do with things that were going on, more so in | :22:50. | :22:55. | |
Eamon's life at the time. And I was the person he saw every day, and if | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
you are going to take it out on anybody, it is the person you see | :23:01. | :23:06. | |
all the time! But it was wildly exaggerated, and I have the utmost | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
respect for him. This is the peace agreement that happened in Northern | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
Ireland many years later. When you two met up. | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
Earlier today it emerged that Eamon Holmes and Anthea Turner have | :23:21. | :23:23. | |
decided to forget their stormy past and become friends again, whilst | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
signing up to what will be known as the Good Friday show agreement. | :23:29. | :23:39. | |
Oh, look! It is a roller-coaster, this industry, though. It is just a | :23:40. | :23:48. | |
gossip mongering industry, and I have been around for a long time so | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
some of it hurts and some of it doesn't. Some of it you just brush | :23:53. | :24:00. | |
off, and that is what it is. But it does hurt, I think. If you are a | :24:01. | :24:07. | |
thin skinned, normal person, it does hurt. And your life is so public | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
then that for example when you get divorced it is all over the | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
papers... Yes, but the deal is it is a double edged sword, you cannot use | :24:18. | :24:24. | |
the media if you are promoting a television show, or some fitness | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
video or whatever, and then when something goes wrong, shut it out. | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
You have to roll with it. It is not pleasant, and I think if anybody | :24:35. | :24:37. | |
ever looked into a crystal ball and said this is what your life is going | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
to be, you would go and do another job. But it becomes what you do, and | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
you accept it, and it is part of it, that's it. How hurtful was | :24:47. | :25:01. | |
Flakegate? How many people do their weddings with a magazine? But never | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
ever was there any deal at all with Cadbury 's chocolate. In fact the | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
proprietor of the magazine has a book out at the moment, his | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
autobiography, and he has put that right. That was about 12 o'clock at | :25:15. | :25:21. | |
night, and somebody came up and said: we have a picture taken with | :25:22. | :25:28. | |
one of these? How destructive was that for your career? Absolutely | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
terrible, because it made me out," oh, God, you sold your wedding for a | :25:34. | :25:39. | |
chocolate bar?" No, it was just a normal deal with a magazine for some | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
wedding pictures. When you think of something like that, do you think, | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
what if that hadn't happened, where would I be? It was destructive, but | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
not that destructive because I have worked since, and I think probably | :25:54. | :25:59. | |
the most difficult thing for my career, and it doesn't matter what | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
the rights and wrongs at or whatever, what I know to be true is | :26:04. | :26:09. | |
the fact that I through quite... Grant and I got together, he has | :26:10. | :26:15. | |
three children and I went from being miss Blue Peter, to all of a sudden | :26:16. | :26:21. | |
the Antichrist. And I hold my hands up, that caused a lot of problems | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
for me. What about the psychological pressure? Well, I'm in, no, it was | :26:27. | :26:36. | |
absolutely awful, but cut forward to now, obviously Grant and I are | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
divorced, but I have, you know, we have maintained a family life, 16 | :26:42. | :26:48. | |
years, the girls are as much in my life as they ever have been on a | :26:49. | :26:54. | |
daily basis. The little one, let's say little, she is 19... She is | :26:55. | :27:01. | |
there with me all the time, and the other two are in and out of my life | :27:02. | :27:06. | |
constantly, on a daily basis. I am keen to get the real deal from you | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
about some of the stuff I have read. Some of the stuff I have read | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
recently is you used to live in a ?10 million mansion and now you live | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
in a flat. That our flats and flats and flats. -- there are flats... No, | :27:21. | :27:32. | |
my husband was bankrupt so that property was sold, and I now have a | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
very nice flat in a lovely area called Richmond in Surrey, and I am | :27:38. | :27:42. | |
very happy there. I have a completely different life, it is | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
different. So all the big-money's gone? Well, most of it was owned by | :27:49. | :27:58. | |
the bank in any case! Do you miss it? No, that whole downsizing, did I | :27:59. | :28:05. | |
even want it in the first place? No, it was somebody else's life, who are | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
married, and I went along with stuff. But it was never really my | :28:11. | :28:16. | |
life. And I actually have my life back now the way I live my life. It | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
is much smaller and more accessible and easier. | :28:22. | :28:35. | |
And you have written any self-help book on divorce? Yes, it is trying | :28:36. | :28:48. | |
to kill people, if you do go round this road, there are certain things | :28:49. | :28:56. | |
which can help you deal with that. -- go down. There is no way back | :28:57. | :29:12. | |
from anger. When people get divorced, it is about two people and | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
we are ready by a sphere of life. There may be children involved. They | :29:18. | :29:26. | |
are involved and you have to protect them. You have to protect all of the | :29:27. | :29:34. | |
people, your friends, your family and keep it all together somehow. It | :29:35. | :29:43. | |
is difficult, but it can be done. We are nearly out of time. I wanted | :29:44. | :29:54. | |
to ask you about fitness. The audience here see me as being a | :29:55. | :30:09. | |
rather something of a model for how to look after yourself. I can see | :30:10. | :30:18. | |
that! And I know more about you than you think. I have the crazy diet. | :30:19. | :30:34. | |
What is it. I am 40 days into it. I thought I would maybe break my diet | :30:35. | :30:40. | |
for me -- for you. I do not want you to do that. I know we had the | :30:41. | :30:53. | |
situation all these years ago. Come over and get a picture of this. If | :30:54. | :31:08. | |
you and I do this, it means you have got to marry me. That may be a | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
bigger story than you realise. Thank you for being such a good | :31:13. | :31:23. | |
sport. Thank you. we are going to take a look at this | :31:24. | :32:02. | |
dramatic footage. This is when a three-year-old boy get into the | :32:03. | :32:04. | |
gorilla enclosure at Cincinnati zoo. No, that happened last weekend. To | :32:05. | :32:31. | |
rescue the child, the short the gorilla bed. The gorilla was cold | :32:32. | :32:38. | |
Harambe. Animal rights activists have been up in arms, but those who | :32:39. | :32:44. | |
have defended what the dead. We are joined by the animal rights activist | :32:45. | :32:55. | |
John Carmody and Matt Walsh. What should have happened to it? When it | :32:56. | :33:05. | |
is a human shield versus E Carella, there is no discussion. You kill the | :33:06. | :33:13. | |
gorilla to save the child. You cannot preserve both lives. You | :33:14. | :33:19. | |
preserve the human life. I do not clear how many gorillas you have to | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
kill, you preserve the human life. It is an inherent truth. You do not | :33:24. | :33:30. | |
give a dam about the gorilla? Once we start stacking the gorilla | :33:31. | :33:38. | |
against the Child, there is nowhere to go. When I watched the video, I | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
was terrified. Imagine thinking that was my child. My overriding feeling | :33:44. | :33:55. | |
was relief when really aren't that the Child had only minor injuries. | :33:56. | :34:03. | |
As a secondary concern, we don't know us, it was that it was too bad | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
about the gorilla. There was no decision to make here. This could | :34:09. | :34:15. | |
have been completely preventable. What I would say is that I do not | :34:16. | :34:21. | |
want to see who was to blame or for its life was more important. Surely | :34:22. | :34:28. | |
that is the story. We should be asking ourselves that in this day | :34:29. | :34:36. | |
and age, should be be incarcerating these magnificent creatures from the | :34:37. | :34:39. | |
wild and keeping it in a concrete prison. If anything, people should | :34:40. | :34:47. | |
be worried about the fact that they are incarcerated. Was the Zune rate | :34:48. | :34:56. | |
to shoot the gorilla. I think, in the situation, the dead have little | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
choice. But I think we have to look at this in the future. I think they | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
should be reducing the bleeding programmes and getting rid of zoos | :35:08. | :35:23. | |
going for work. The reports are that the gorilla had ten times the | :35:24. | :35:27. | |
strength of the normal human, it could have ripped the children to | :35:28. | :35:35. | |
bits. I do not think I there should really be any animal rights issue | :35:36. | :35:46. | |
about this. By definition, the zoo is meant to protect the animals. It | :35:47. | :35:58. | |
was no fault of the gorilla. Her point is that zoo the is the to | :35:59. | :36:07. | |
protect animals, not to kill them. It is easy to see that they should | :36:08. | :36:14. | |
not exist. But they do preserve a lot of these species. But in the | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
real occasion when something like this happens, they have to respond | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
to it. Of course it is not the gorilla 's fault. But does that mean | :36:25. | :36:31. | |
that you would you actually take a chance with a Child of the life. It | :36:32. | :36:43. | |
was not me who took their chance. The appearance for not supervising | :36:44. | :36:50. | |
them. So, you are seeing let the child died because the appearance | :36:51. | :36:55. | |
let the men there. I think that is not only a wrong position, but it is | :36:56. | :37:05. | |
deeply than wicked. I agree that the safety of the Child is paramount. | :37:06. | :37:16. | |
You have gone beyond this. You have said you could kill a million | :37:17. | :37:29. | |
guerrillas rather than take human lives. In RSI that situation is not | :37:30. | :37:41. | |
going to occur. The principle is that human life is infinitely more | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
valuable. Animal lives are always subjugated under human lives. Could | :37:46. | :37:55. | |
I explained, I was trying to say you were being clever, just for the red. | :37:56. | :38:06. | |
I think the onus is with the parents. If I was at a zoo and had | :38:07. | :38:17. | |
any children with me, I would keep them well back. Is that not very | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
easy to see in retrospect. Peel and sometimes can take the eye of the | :38:23. | :38:25. | |
Child for a few seconds, which is what happened here. That was a | :38:26. | :38:35. | |
beautiful creature. There is footage of the gorilla holding hands with | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
the boy. Is it possible that the gorilla was trying to protect the | :38:41. | :38:47. | |
child? People were pending the blame on the gorilla. But we believe that | :38:48. | :38:57. | |
the gorilla was trying to protect the child. In the way you want, | :38:58. | :39:05. | |
guerrillas are a very timid creature. Come on, we have seen | :39:06. | :39:17. | |
Disney movies. Are they going to break out into a musical number? We | :39:18. | :39:27. | |
saw the gorilla tracking the Child by his leg through the water. The | :39:28. | :39:33. | |
child could offset its head in the concrete and drowned. We can have a | :39:34. | :39:47. | |
look at all of this. Initially, this is what he would probably do with | :39:48. | :39:54. | |
his own young. He looks rather confused by what is going on. He is | :39:55. | :40:04. | |
clearly perturbed by what is going on. We need to do things in | :40:05. | :40:16. | |
perspective. We have to talk about zoos and the purported conservation | :40:17. | :40:22. | |
schemes. We keep getting told we do not know what we are talking about | :40:23. | :40:27. | |
with regard to animals zoos and. They are often in the centre of very | :40:28. | :40:36. | |
busy cities. They are not really part of true conservation. The zoo | :40:37. | :40:44. | |
inner London spent more than ?5 million on in enclosure with only | :40:45. | :40:51. | |
three animals in it. This is all about what zoos really are. I think | :40:52. | :41:00. | |
it is time we question the validity of such establishments. Witness | :41:01. | :41:15. | |
reports say the Child was asked to go in to the enclosure with the | :41:16. | :41:25. | |
gorilla. If I had the theoretical Child who wanted to go in the. You | :41:26. | :41:33. | |
have gone far not been a great parenting or even being a parent at | :41:34. | :41:41. | |
all. If the child had asked me to go into the enclosure, I think I may | :41:42. | :41:53. | |
have my eye on my Child. Does that make sense? We will soon find out | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
when you are a Fowler. There is a serious issue. The idea that gorilla | :41:59. | :42:06. | |
should not be in captivity and the first place. This really as a | :42:07. | :42:12. | |
separate issue. I disagree. I think they preserve the species. As the | :42:13. | :42:22. | |
more superior creatures in the air, I think we have a noble purpose and | :42:23. | :42:31. | |
preserving these animals. The bigger issue is that there are people in | :42:32. | :42:37. | |
the world who clearly care more for animal life than human life. That is | :42:38. | :42:45. | |
why animal rights activists in to be more worried about the animals in | :42:46. | :42:49. | |
captivity than human beings suffering and been killed all across | :42:50. | :42:55. | |
the call. When the sort of thing happens we know it has to debate | :42:56. | :42:57. | |
that the gorilla should have been saved in place of the infant. Surely | :42:58. | :43:11. | |
there is no debate. This idea that we care more for animals and humans. | :43:12. | :43:19. | |
It is indicative of this idea that we keep animals captive for our own | :43:20. | :43:24. | |
entertainment. To conserve the species and activity is -- captivity | :43:25. | :43:34. | |
is wrong. Everything here could've avoided. People blame the parents, | :43:35. | :43:41. | |
people blame the gorilla. If the boy had fallen and died, the zoo would | :43:42. | :43:48. | |
of been held responsible. I think it was sad that the gorilla | :43:49. | :43:59. | |
had to be killed, but the zoo's priority had to be the child's | :44:00. | :44:06. | |
safety. Where were the parents? I think they hold full responsibility | :44:07. | :44:10. | |
for this sad incidents. But none of us were there. | :44:11. | :44:21. | |
Zoos should never have to see this happen. Zoos should look at the | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
enclosures. Ten seconds... This could be easily | :44:27. | :44:31. | |
settled if we could understand the true language of gorillas. We would | :44:32. | :44:37. | |
hang our heads in shame that we have incarcerated these magnificent | :44:38. | :44:39. | |
creatures in glass and concrete enclosures. Where are you in | :44:40. | :44:45. | |
America? I am in Washington, DC. Thank you | :44:46. | :44:48. | |
for joining us. Give our guests a round of applause. | :44:49. | :45:00. | |
Just a quick reminder that there is still time to apply for tickets for | :45:01. | :45:10. | |
next week's show. Go on the BBC website. And the radio show is on | :45:11. | :45:20. | |
Friday from 9p until half past ten. -- from nine o'clock till 1030. Lets | :45:21. | :45:30. | |
see who's online one. They have to uphold our laws. I am incensed by | :45:31. | :45:38. | |
what you have said. The biggest show in the country. A | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
report for the International Monetary Fund has said the | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
Government's cutting down on spending can do the economy more | :45:47. | :45:49. | |
harm than good. The Chancellor says we need to type type -- Titan arbour | :45:50. | :45:58. | |
-- belts. We keep on hearing about cuts. Are they necessary? | :45:59. | :46:04. | |
Absolutely, because what is happening... Not according to the | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
IMF report. They are an elite we don't have to worry about. I am a | :46:10. | :46:14. | |
businessman who was a member of the Tory party. What we have at the | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
moment is last month the debts in the United Kingdom got to ?1.6 | :46:20. | :46:26. | |
trillion. Which is 1 million million. To put that in context for | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
your audience tonight, everybody in this audience tonight is ?100,000 in | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
debt, because of Government borrowing. We are paying out. My | :46:35. | :46:43. | |
mortgage is bigger than that! Yes, but you can afford it, Stephen. Your | :46:44. | :46:49. | |
Government put us in ?100,000 of debt. It is not my Government. It is | :46:50. | :46:58. | |
your party. We are in debt today because the banks collapsed, we had | :46:59. | :47:01. | |
to bail them out and we are now paying the price for it. So we got | :47:02. | :47:07. | |
hit twice, we had to bail out the banks, and secondly we lost | :47:08. | :47:13. | |
services. We cannot go back year -- years and years blaming the banks. | :47:14. | :47:19. | |
The day after we stop paying for the banks, we can stop blaming them. The | :47:20. | :47:25. | |
IMF are four was absolutely right. There is a massive problem of | :47:26. | :47:29. | |
underinvestment in the economy... We should say to the people who are | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
hiding their money in Panama, start paying your way in the economy. Come | :47:34. | :47:39. | |
into the real world. We cannot afford to continually increased... | :47:40. | :47:45. | |
We are going to get to a ?2 trillion debt. What about the people who do | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
not pay their taxes? Make them pay their taxes. They are also ?100,000 | :47:50. | :47:58. | |
in debt. Because of your Government. I wish you would stop saying that. | :47:59. | :48:05. | |
This man here, go ahead. If austerity actually works, then why | :48:06. | :48:07. | |
for the last five years as the national debt doubled from ?800 | :48:08. | :48:13. | |
billion to ?1.7 trillion? We have been doing austerity for five years, | :48:14. | :48:18. | |
and it has doubled. George Osborne brought in austerity five years ago. | :48:19. | :48:25. | |
There are people sitting... There are disabled people sitting in | :48:26. | :48:27. | |
nappies because they have dug deep to care for them for the last three | :48:28. | :48:38. | |
or four macro years. In the last six years the debt has gone up by ?600 | :48:39. | :48:42. | |
billion, so we have borrowed ?600 billion... Figures are important, | :48:43. | :48:52. | |
but that man has nailed it. Disabled people are feeling austerity in this | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
country. You are saying it has not happened? Get into the real world! | :48:58. | :49:05. | |
We are paying 120 -- 100 ?20 million every day in interest on those | :49:06. | :49:10. | |
borrowings. We have not borrowed money to pay for public services or | :49:11. | :49:15. | |
to help the disabled or to help people in our communities. We have | :49:16. | :49:18. | |
borrowed money to bail out banks and to bail out failing businesses. That | :49:19. | :49:24. | |
was the Labour Government... That's over the last six years. The United | :49:25. | :49:32. | |
States has not done austerity, in the last five years they spent money | :49:33. | :49:37. | |
on infrastructure etc, and its economy is growing. Our economy is | :49:38. | :49:40. | |
absolutely stagnating. We need to change something. Go ahead, front | :49:41. | :49:50. | |
row. Is it not morally repulsive to chase a political goal when you are | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
dealing with real people's lives? Everybody here's in debt, we all | :49:55. | :49:59. | |
have a moral obligation to the most vulnerable. Have you felt the cuts, | :50:00. | :50:06. | |
or people around you felt it? More so people around me, and members of | :50:07. | :50:11. | |
my family, they depend on housing benefit and things like that. It is | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
not fair on them when they don't have that much control over their | :50:17. | :50:22. | |
own lives. How do you respond to that? We cannot continue to borrow, | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
you cannot borrow your way out of debt. We have to get it down, we | :50:27. | :50:32. | |
have to start -- stop paying ?120 million per day. You can argue for | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
more taxes, but we can't keep spending money we are not earning. | :50:37. | :50:40. | |
You know what it is like with your budget every month, you have income | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
and expenditure, if you continually spend more than you earn, sooner or | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
later your bank will call you in and say you are getting no more. That is | :50:49. | :50:52. | |
what is going to happen sooner or later. Showed Stormont challenge | :50:53. | :51:01. | |
Aust -- austerity, this new Government? They are cooperating | :51:02. | :51:09. | |
with austerity, they are implementing David Cameron's | :51:10. | :51:11. | |
programme. They should be standing up for the people of Northern | :51:12. | :51:20. | |
Ireland. Actually I heard myself... The fresh start agreement is an | :51:21. | :51:25. | |
austerity agreement, and the Northern Ireland Assembly intends to | :51:26. | :51:28. | |
implement 20,000 private -- public service job cuts. I work in | :51:29. | :51:37. | |
education... Up to 20,000. Secondly, we have a new Finance Minister, who | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
has said he is going to push back against austerity and he has said in | :51:43. | :51:52. | |
fact he wants to borrow more... If politicians would cut the money they | :51:53. | :51:58. | |
spend on segregation in this country... The expenditure is there. | :51:59. | :52:04. | |
Teachers are being laid off. We in the union movement are fighting to | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
keep mental health services open. Our members are striking on Friday | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
to try to protect local services in towns across Northern Ireland. | :52:14. | :52:19. | |
Strikes don't help. They send a message to politicians and the | :52:20. | :52:25. | |
electoral officers, jobs are disappearing. Stormont has to live | :52:26. | :52:33. | |
the budget it has. Absolutely. It is time they learn to live within it. I | :52:34. | :52:39. | |
for one, and I don't know about this audience, but spending ?1 billion a | :52:40. | :52:45. | |
year on segregation, keeping you good people apart, that money could | :52:46. | :52:51. | |
be spent on many, many things. Are you saying keeping people in work is | :52:52. | :53:04. | |
crazy? No, keeping people apart. They haven't even tried to start. | :53:05. | :53:10. | |
How would you... How would you repair the divisions in this | :53:11. | :53:16. | |
country? Knock down the peace walls of the night? No, but if you take | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
the time I come from, Ballymena has one leisure centre. If we have the | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
same number of leisure centres as in Belfast we would have sex. There are | :53:27. | :53:29. | |
far too many leisure centres in Belfast, all because of segregation. | :53:30. | :53:35. | |
-- we would have six leisure centres. Segregation and | :53:36. | :53:43. | |
sectarianism is not about making more cuts. That does not help the | :53:44. | :53:51. | |
problem. When you start by saying maybe we have too many leisure | :53:52. | :53:56. | |
centres, do we have too many GPs, hospitals? We do not. We need an | :53:57. | :54:00. | |
economy that is creating jobs, and you would undermine sectarianism... | :54:01. | :54:10. | |
Do you think people are feeling cuts in this country? No, the standard of | :54:11. | :54:15. | |
living in this country... Is anybody in this audience feeling the cuts? | :54:16. | :54:19. | |
Young lady here. Front row, go ahead. Even people here are feeling | :54:20. | :54:29. | |
the cuts. We are just scraping by, scrimping and saving just to pay the | :54:30. | :54:34. | |
rent and have food for the week. You are living on cloud nine, made! -- | :54:35. | :54:45. | |
mate. Is she said you are living on cloud nine, mate. The cloud I am | :54:46. | :54:52. | |
living on is one where we are spending money we do not have. But | :54:53. | :54:57. | |
you said people are not feeling the cuts! There are special cases... It | :54:58. | :55:06. | |
is not just -- special cases, it is millions of people in this country! | :55:07. | :55:14. | |
There is only a possibility of 1.7 million. People have seen their | :55:15. | :55:23. | |
health service attack, the education service attack. But you cannot | :55:24. | :55:28. | |
continue borrowing money. We are out of time, give our guests a round of | :55:29. | :55:33. | |
applause, thank you. Right, now, before we go tonight we have a | :55:34. | :55:38. | |
special musical treat. This year marks the 21st anniversary of the | :55:39. | :55:41. | |
hit movie the commitments, and we have a singing star. He is here | :55:42. | :55:49. | |
tonight with a classic song, Mustang Sally, let's hear | :55:50. | :55:50. | |
# Guess you better slow your Mustang down | :55:51. | :56:12. | |
# Guess you better slow that Mustang down | :56:13. | :56:29. | |
# You been runnin' all over the town | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
# I guess you got to put your flat feet on the ground | :56:34. | :56:49. | |
# All you wanna do is ride around, Sally | :56:50. | :56:51. | |
# All you wanna do is ride around, Sally | :56:52. | :56:57. | |
# All you wanna do is ride around, Sally | :56:58. | :57:05. | |
# All you wanna do is ride around, Sally | :57:06. | :57:13. | |
# I'm gonna be wipin' those weepin' eyes | :57:14. | :57:35. | |
# I bought you a brand-new Mustang, it was a natural '65 | :57:36. | :57:46. | |
# I bought you a brand-new Mustang, it was a 1965 | :57:47. | :57:48. | |
# Now you comin' round signifyin' a woman | :57:49. | :57:50. | |
# Girl you won't, you won't let me ride | :57:51. | :57:52. | |
# Guess you better slow that Mustang down | :57:53. | :58:03. | |
# You been a runnin' all over the town | :58:04. | :58:09. | |
# Oh, I guess you got to put your flat feet on the ground | :58:10. | :58:22. | |
# All you wanna do is ride around, Sally | :58:23. | :58:25. | |
# All you wanna do is ride around, Sally | :58:26. | :58:33. | |
# All you wanna do is ride around, Sally | :58:34. | :58:41. | |
# All you wanna do is ride around, Sally | :58:42. | :58:49. | |
# I'm gonna be wipin' those weepin' eyes | :58:50. | :59:12. | |
That's what I've got to do now, girl... Those weeping hours... Oh, | :59:13. | :59:24. | |
baby! The build-up to the Euro 2016 | :59:25. | :00:02. | |
finals continues. | :00:03. | :00:07. |