Episode 4 Nolan Live


Episode 4

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We have an excellent show tonight. We have Jude Collins, or compare the

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Boys' Brigade to dissident republicans. We will hear from

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television presenter Anthea Turner and have music from Andrew Strong

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from The Commitments. Hello. A well-known writer has

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caused outrage by comparing the Boys' Brigade two young children

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taking part in Republican marchers. He has refused to apologise. The

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Boys' Brigade called it highly offensive and dangerous. We are

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joined by Jude Collins and Christopher Stalford from the DUP. I

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saw that at wheat had been re-tweeted which said, shocking

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images of children at a parade. It had a picture of masked men with the

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back to the camera. One girl was in a dress. More likely a young man. --

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battle dress. I thought it was wildly exaggerated. If there were

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any, there was only one child. So half in jest, I replied. We can all

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have a look at what you said. That was you comparing them to dissident

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republicans. I said it was a bit like this. I think it was no more

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exaggerated dust on the original comment. I said, are there any

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elements of militarism in the Boys' Brigade. The fact of the matter is

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that there are. The Boys' Brigade were founded at the end of the 19th

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century. It was founded by someone who was a soldier. He drilled with

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his men during the day and then he would take Sunday school. And the

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boys were bored stiff. He thought he would introduce the same elements of

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drilling and parading and marching into the Boys' Brigade. And it

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worked like a dream. The Boys' Brigade is for sport, it is for fun.

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To draw any type of parallel with Republican marchers. These masked

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thugs in dissident regalia. You are doing this deliberately. You are

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misunderstanding my point. I did not see from one moment that the Boys'

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Brigade was a paramilitary organisation. No, but are you

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arguing that it could be viewed as such. It is a history we're it draws

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its success to the fact that William Smith combined Sunday school with

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militaristic endeavours. You probably hear what the Boys' Brigade

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answer was to this. This is the statement. You have not apologised.

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This is what they said. I did not compel them to the masked

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paramilitaries. I did not say that. The parallel I was drawing was the

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effect of these paramilitaries on perhaps these young children. It is

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the effect of paramilitaries. And there are effects of having a

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structure of the Boys' Brigade which has elements are trappings of

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militarism. The effect is that the Boys' Brigade is an organisation

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which if exists for the youth. I was in the Boys' Brigade for 15 years.

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The people who I encountered, the leaders of it, were the most decent

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people I have ever encountered. There will be thousands of people

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whose children are in the Boys' Brigade. I absolutely defend Jude

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Collins to have the right to see what he said. Many people will be

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deeply hurt by what he said. The comparison between the Brigade and a

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bit like this, the words you use,. When we talked on the radio earlier

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today, you said you were not drawing a direct comparison. I accept that.

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I think the comparison is so vulgar and so wrong that you should just

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admit that you got it wrong. You should say sorry. As far back as the

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1930s, there were people who had severe doubts about the elements of

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militarism within the Boys' Brigade. The success of the organisation in

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the first place was William Smith introducing elements of drilling.

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But we'll know in 2016. Surely it is about kids doing something other

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than hanging around honesty corner. -- on a street corner. I know many

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people who have had very helpful and positive memories of the Boys'

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Brigade. But there is the military in structure. In 2006, the Sunday

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teams carried a report which said the Boys' Brigade was going to do

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eight ?215,000 rebranding to rid itself of the image of militarism. I

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have two C, over the course of this, your attempts to defend what you

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have said have become more pronounced that you actually no

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sound even more hostile towards the Boys' Brigade than you originally

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dead. It is bizarre. It is frankly bizarre. To be resorting to attacks,

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which I think was slanderous on him as an organisation, which exist

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forbidden from the benefit of the community. See if the state picked

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up the tab for the amount of work these people do in the community, it

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would cost an absolute fortune. Surely people being involved in

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groups might actually discourage them to get involved in dissident

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activities? The person with his hand up. The Boys' Brigade was founded on

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the basis of Christianity -- Christianity. It is an insult to

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decent law-abiding people what you have said. There is enough trouble

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in this country without you trying to stir it up. I am not intending to

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insult anybody. I know many people who have been in the Boys' Brigade

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and who have enjoyed a completely positive experience. All I am saying

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is through the deep decades, there is the militaristic element to it.

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Like many Christian organisations, many of which were founded in the

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Victorian and Edwardian times, there was an element of Christianity but

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also a question of militaristic connection. I do not have a moral

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objection to them. Do you think the Boys' Brigade is to militaristic? I

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think if it is organised on the basis of militarism, I think it

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would be better being done otherwise. It exists for good, the

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organisation. The paramilitary groups exist for bad. But as the

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marching and staff knocked out of the total date for the current model

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planes? When I was in the Boys' Brigade, it was more of a uniform,

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but it is more of the jumper that people we're there were days. For

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any way for them to become clear that in a really weird was wrong.

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But why should children be marching about anyway? It was founded on the

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basis of Christian principle. It was the notion of discipline,

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self-respect. William Smith was a man who came from a military

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background and there is no denying that. But to draw comparisons

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between the Boys' Brigade and organisations that exist for bad, I

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really think you have got this badly wrong. What would you say to the

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thousands of people out there who are offended by the comparison that

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you drew that you are sorry. I am actually worth Jude Collins on this

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one. The Boys' Brigade is very militaristic. What Tatum did you

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address the person in charge of your unit? You called the captain. I do

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not think it is necessarily bad, but I do think it is out of touch there

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were days. It is effectively a military organisation. I think that

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is a huge overreaction to this over nothing.

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That is an interesting response. When usual men in masks and

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dissidents and see the about like them, well you not put off? It is

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military. That was the sense he was meaning. Actually, the Boys' Brigade

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as a paramilitary organisation. For goodness sake! You for real, the

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Boys' Brigade as a paramilitary organisation? It is not the meaning

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of the word. It is any organisation that takes on the trappings of the

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military. Both the Boys' Brigade take on a military standing. I fully

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support both organisations, but they are military in organisation and

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that is exactly just what he was seeing. Exactly. She has said that

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better than I could. Please go ahead. I was a volunteer in both the

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Boys' Brigade and the Guild Brigade. I think the comparisons are odious.

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We do drill for about 15 minutes late and the boys really enjoy it.

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It is all about instilling discipline and respect for the

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leadership. To compare it to a paramilitary organisation is wrong.

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What would you say, this is all about your lot throwing a hissy fit.

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You were the one who invited me on to discuss this.

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I was glad to come on and discuss this, because I was someone who was

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a boy in the Boys' Brigade for 15 years, and the experience I had, and

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the example but was said to us by the people that belonged to my

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church but basically the people who ran our BB company, decent, upright

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people who would never harm another human being, and for a comparison to

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be drawn between an organisation like the Boys' Brigade and -- and an

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organisation that -- like we saw at that recent event, I think is

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grossly hurtful. The Boys' Brigade has said this is dangerous. O'Kane?

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For those people who you have offended, do you think -- do you

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apologise? I don't think I have anything to apologise for. I suspect

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two things, one is there are people who if I said the sky was blue, they

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would say I was a Fenian liar. Secondly... So you think people are

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out to get you? No, that -- simply that there are people like that.

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Secondly, I am simply trying to deal with what seems to me to be a fact

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that this lady indicated. I can see that some people like Christopher

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perhaps have very happy memories of their boyhood in the Boys' Brigade,

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and I think some of those are hard because I seem to be trampling on

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something they treasure as a childhood memory. Did any of your

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relatives go through the BB? Your nephew or what have you? If you had

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experience of the organisation you would see what a positive

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organisation it is, and for you to draw this comparison, I think is

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deeply offensive. I do not denigrate the BB, I am simply saying it has

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militaristic elements, and I suspect it has some influence on the young

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people who go through it. It's only ever been an influence for good. But

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why would they start spending ?215,000 to rebrand the

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organisation, if it was... Because youth organisations across the board

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are declining in numbers. They suspected militarism was keeping

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them back. Dude, I thank you for coming in. You got a lot of support

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in this audience. -- chewed. -- Jude Collins. Let's move on, still to

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come tonight, this gorilla had not attacked this child but he came this

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close. The zoo shot the gorilla, but did it deserve to die? My next guest

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was never off our screens as one of the biggest TV presenters in the

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1990s, but she's been in the headlines recently after her divorce

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and is here to tell us how she is ready to bounce back, ladies and

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gentlemen, Anthea Turner. Hello! Get to see you. I thought they were

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going to start on the Brownies, and then I would be really upset!

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Sometimes guests say "What is this show?" You are fine. You are used to

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so much telly over decades. What was really ought, I was walking round

:18:59.:19:05.

the back of the screens here, and something you said, I went, oh my

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goodness, this June, I have been in television for 30 years. 30 years!

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Has it been a good ride? I think so, I just get up and do a job or get a

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bit of work here or there. I don't see it as... I've never seen it as a

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career actually. Come on! What were you, the second-highest paid start

:19:40.:19:46.

in TV after Cilla Black? That is somebody out to make a career. I

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don't think I earn that much. We are not on millions? If only I had been.

:19:55.:20:00.

I would have been much better off. No, I remember reading some of these

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figures that you are supposed to arm and thinking, if only. And

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especially at GMTV, none of the figures bandied around were true.

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But the silly thing was it was never in your interests to go "No, I am

:20:16.:20:21.

not earning that at all, you can half it!" When we see -- said GMTV

:20:22.:20:27.

to this Northern Ireland audience they immediately think of probably

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the most popular presenter that there has ever been in Northern

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Ireland, Eamon Holmes. Let's have a look at you two together. This is

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going back quite a few years. The Independent has a lottery

:20:46.:20:50.

special today. You may think this is Anthea's granny, but this is the

:20:51.:20:56.

image of Anthea in the year 2015. 20 years from now, that could be you,

:20:57.:21:05.

Anthea! It will never happen! " Has Anthea combed her hair this morning,

:21:06.:21:12.

it looks a mess!" It is fine now. It is like having a Dulux dog beside

:21:13.:21:19.

you. It all falls back into place. 20 years, something like that?

:21:20.:21:26.

Absolutely. And the stories have all been well rehearsed that

:21:27.:21:28.

behind-the-scenes while all the smiles were going on, you don't like

:21:29.:21:33.

each other... What was it really like? They were widely -- while the

:21:34.:21:39.

exaggerated. He could have been a bit grumpy in the morning, like a

:21:40.:21:44.

lot of men. Do you know, it was so funny because obviously we kissed

:21:45.:21:50.

and made up, here actually, in the studio. And I think like a lot of

:21:51.:21:57.

these things, a lot is written in newspapers, there is a grain of

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truth that gets exploded... He nicknamed you Princess Tippy toes.

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Were you deserving of that? I called myself that. To this day, if I text

:22:09.:22:23.

him or he texts me, it is Princess Tippy toes. What did you call him,

:22:24.:22:30.

if it is not vulgar? It was Lorraine who started it, and I picked it up.

:22:31.:22:40.

No, I can't! Now... No. And, there was a little bit of tension at the

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time, for reasons which Eamon and I know about, between ourselves, and

:22:46.:22:49.

they were a lot to do with things that were going on, more so in

:22:50.:22:55.

Eamon's life at the time. And I was the person he saw every day, and if

:22:56.:23:00.

you are going to take it out on anybody, it is the person you see

:23:01.:23:06.

all the time! But it was wildly exaggerated, and I have the utmost

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respect for him. This is the peace agreement that happened in Northern

:23:12.:23:16.

Ireland many years later. When you two met up.

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Earlier today it emerged that Eamon Holmes and Anthea Turner have

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decided to forget their stormy past and become friends again, whilst

:23:24.:23:28.

signing up to what will be known as the Good Friday show agreement.

:23:29.:23:39.

Oh, look! It is a roller-coaster, this industry, though. It is just a

:23:40.:23:48.

gossip mongering industry, and I have been around for a long time so

:23:49.:23:52.

some of it hurts and some of it doesn't. Some of it you just brush

:23:53.:24:00.

off, and that is what it is. But it does hurt, I think. If you are a

:24:01.:24:07.

thin skinned, normal person, it does hurt. And your life is so public

:24:08.:24:11.

then that for example when you get divorced it is all over the

:24:12.:24:17.

papers... Yes, but the deal is it is a double edged sword, you cannot use

:24:18.:24:24.

the media if you are promoting a television show, or some fitness

:24:25.:24:28.

video or whatever, and then when something goes wrong, shut it out.

:24:29.:24:34.

You have to roll with it. It is not pleasant, and I think if anybody

:24:35.:24:37.

ever looked into a crystal ball and said this is what your life is going

:24:38.:24:42.

to be, you would go and do another job. But it becomes what you do, and

:24:43.:24:46.

you accept it, and it is part of it, that's it. How hurtful was

:24:47.:25:01.

Flakegate? How many people do their weddings with a magazine? But never

:25:02.:25:06.

ever was there any deal at all with Cadbury 's chocolate. In fact the

:25:07.:25:10.

proprietor of the magazine has a book out at the moment, his

:25:11.:25:14.

autobiography, and he has put that right. That was about 12 o'clock at

:25:15.:25:21.

night, and somebody came up and said: we have a picture taken with

:25:22.:25:28.

one of these? How destructive was that for your career? Absolutely

:25:29.:25:33.

terrible, because it made me out," oh, God, you sold your wedding for a

:25:34.:25:39.

chocolate bar?" No, it was just a normal deal with a magazine for some

:25:40.:25:44.

wedding pictures. When you think of something like that, do you think,

:25:45.:25:49.

what if that hadn't happened, where would I be? It was destructive, but

:25:50.:25:53.

not that destructive because I have worked since, and I think probably

:25:54.:25:59.

the most difficult thing for my career, and it doesn't matter what

:26:00.:26:03.

the rights and wrongs at or whatever, what I know to be true is

:26:04.:26:09.

the fact that I through quite... Grant and I got together, he has

:26:10.:26:15.

three children and I went from being miss Blue Peter, to all of a sudden

:26:16.:26:21.

the Antichrist. And I hold my hands up, that caused a lot of problems

:26:22.:26:26.

for me. What about the psychological pressure? Well, I'm in, no, it was

:26:27.:26:36.

absolutely awful, but cut forward to now, obviously Grant and I are

:26:37.:26:41.

divorced, but I have, you know, we have maintained a family life, 16

:26:42.:26:48.

years, the girls are as much in my life as they ever have been on a

:26:49.:26:54.

daily basis. The little one, let's say little, she is 19... She is

:26:55.:27:01.

there with me all the time, and the other two are in and out of my life

:27:02.:27:06.

constantly, on a daily basis. I am keen to get the real deal from you

:27:07.:27:11.

about some of the stuff I have read. Some of the stuff I have read

:27:12.:27:15.

recently is you used to live in a ?10 million mansion and now you live

:27:16.:27:20.

in a flat. That our flats and flats and flats. -- there are flats... No,

:27:21.:27:32.

my husband was bankrupt so that property was sold, and I now have a

:27:33.:27:37.

very nice flat in a lovely area called Richmond in Surrey, and I am

:27:38.:27:42.

very happy there. I have a completely different life, it is

:27:43.:27:48.

different. So all the big-money's gone? Well, most of it was owned by

:27:49.:27:58.

the bank in any case! Do you miss it? No, that whole downsizing, did I

:27:59.:28:05.

even want it in the first place? No, it was somebody else's life, who are

:28:06.:28:10.

married, and I went along with stuff. But it was never really my

:28:11.:28:16.

life. And I actually have my life back now the way I live my life. It

:28:17.:28:21.

is much smaller and more accessible and easier.

:28:22.:28:35.

And you have written any self-help book on divorce? Yes, it is trying

:28:36.:28:48.

to kill people, if you do go round this road, there are certain things

:28:49.:28:56.

which can help you deal with that. -- go down. There is no way back

:28:57.:29:12.

from anger. When people get divorced, it is about two people and

:29:13.:29:17.

we are ready by a sphere of life. There may be children involved. They

:29:18.:29:26.

are involved and you have to protect them. You have to protect all of the

:29:27.:29:34.

people, your friends, your family and keep it all together somehow. It

:29:35.:29:43.

is difficult, but it can be done. We are nearly out of time. I wanted

:29:44.:29:54.

to ask you about fitness. The audience here see me as being a

:29:55.:30:09.

rather something of a model for how to look after yourself. I can see

:30:10.:30:18.

that! And I know more about you than you think. I have the crazy diet.

:30:19.:30:34.

What is it. I am 40 days into it. I thought I would maybe break my diet

:30:35.:30:40.

for me -- for you. I do not want you to do that. I know we had the

:30:41.:30:53.

situation all these years ago. Come over and get a picture of this. If

:30:54.:31:08.

you and I do this, it means you have got to marry me. That may be a

:31:09.:31:12.

bigger story than you realise. Thank you for being such a good

:31:13.:31:23.

sport. Thank you. we are going to take a look at this

:31:24.:32:02.

dramatic footage. This is when a three-year-old boy get into the

:32:03.:32:04.

gorilla enclosure at Cincinnati zoo. No, that happened last weekend. To

:32:05.:32:31.

rescue the child, the short the gorilla bed. The gorilla was cold

:32:32.:32:38.

Harambe. Animal rights activists have been up in arms, but those who

:32:39.:32:44.

have defended what the dead. We are joined by the animal rights activist

:32:45.:32:55.

John Carmody and Matt Walsh. What should have happened to it? When it

:32:56.:33:05.

is a human shield versus E Carella, there is no discussion. You kill the

:33:06.:33:13.

gorilla to save the child. You cannot preserve both lives. You

:33:14.:33:19.

preserve the human life. I do not clear how many gorillas you have to

:33:20.:33:23.

kill, you preserve the human life. It is an inherent truth. You do not

:33:24.:33:30.

give a dam about the gorilla? Once we start stacking the gorilla

:33:31.:33:38.

against the Child, there is nowhere to go. When I watched the video, I

:33:39.:33:43.

was terrified. Imagine thinking that was my child. My overriding feeling

:33:44.:33:55.

was relief when really aren't that the Child had only minor injuries.

:33:56.:34:03.

As a secondary concern, we don't know us, it was that it was too bad

:34:04.:34:08.

about the gorilla. There was no decision to make here. This could

:34:09.:34:15.

have been completely preventable. What I would say is that I do not

:34:16.:34:21.

want to see who was to blame or for its life was more important. Surely

:34:22.:34:28.

that is the story. We should be asking ourselves that in this day

:34:29.:34:36.

and age, should be be incarcerating these magnificent creatures from the

:34:37.:34:39.

wild and keeping it in a concrete prison. If anything, people should

:34:40.:34:47.

be worried about the fact that they are incarcerated. Was the Zune rate

:34:48.:34:56.

to shoot the gorilla. I think, in the situation, the dead have little

:34:57.:35:01.

choice. But I think we have to look at this in the future. I think they

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should be reducing the bleeding programmes and getting rid of zoos

:35:08.:35:23.

going for work. The reports are that the gorilla had ten times the

:35:24.:35:27.

strength of the normal human, it could have ripped the children to

:35:28.:35:35.

bits. I do not think I there should really be any animal rights issue

:35:36.:35:46.

about this. By definition, the zoo is meant to protect the animals. It

:35:47.:35:58.

was no fault of the gorilla. Her point is that zoo the is the to

:35:59.:36:07.

protect animals, not to kill them. It is easy to see that they should

:36:08.:36:14.

not exist. But they do preserve a lot of these species. But in the

:36:15.:36:19.

real occasion when something like this happens, they have to respond

:36:20.:36:24.

to it. Of course it is not the gorilla 's fault. But does that mean

:36:25.:36:31.

that you would you actually take a chance with a Child of the life. It

:36:32.:36:43.

was not me who took their chance. The appearance for not supervising

:36:44.:36:50.

them. So, you are seeing let the child died because the appearance

:36:51.:36:55.

let the men there. I think that is not only a wrong position, but it is

:36:56.:37:05.

deeply than wicked. I agree that the safety of the Child is paramount.

:37:06.:37:16.

You have gone beyond this. You have said you could kill a million

:37:17.:37:29.

guerrillas rather than take human lives. In RSI that situation is not

:37:30.:37:41.

going to occur. The principle is that human life is infinitely more

:37:42.:37:45.

valuable. Animal lives are always subjugated under human lives. Could

:37:46.:37:55.

I explained, I was trying to say you were being clever, just for the red.

:37:56.:38:06.

I think the onus is with the parents. If I was at a zoo and had

:38:07.:38:17.

any children with me, I would keep them well back. Is that not very

:38:18.:38:22.

easy to see in retrospect. Peel and sometimes can take the eye of the

:38:23.:38:25.

Child for a few seconds, which is what happened here. That was a

:38:26.:38:35.

beautiful creature. There is footage of the gorilla holding hands with

:38:36.:38:40.

the boy. Is it possible that the gorilla was trying to protect the

:38:41.:38:47.

child? People were pending the blame on the gorilla. But we believe that

:38:48.:38:57.

the gorilla was trying to protect the child. In the way you want,

:38:58.:39:05.

guerrillas are a very timid creature. Come on, we have seen

:39:06.:39:17.

Disney movies. Are they going to break out into a musical number? We

:39:18.:39:27.

saw the gorilla tracking the Child by his leg through the water. The

:39:28.:39:33.

child could offset its head in the concrete and drowned. We can have a

:39:34.:39:47.

look at all of this. Initially, this is what he would probably do with

:39:48.:39:54.

his own young. He looks rather confused by what is going on. He is

:39:55.:40:04.

clearly perturbed by what is going on. We need to do things in

:40:05.:40:16.

perspective. We have to talk about zoos and the purported conservation

:40:17.:40:22.

schemes. We keep getting told we do not know what we are talking about

:40:23.:40:27.

with regard to animals zoos and. They are often in the centre of very

:40:28.:40:36.

busy cities. They are not really part of true conservation. The zoo

:40:37.:40:44.

inner London spent more than ?5 million on in enclosure with only

:40:45.:40:51.

three animals in it. This is all about what zoos really are. I think

:40:52.:41:00.

it is time we question the validity of such establishments. Witness

:41:01.:41:15.

reports say the Child was asked to go in to the enclosure with the

:41:16.:41:25.

gorilla. If I had the theoretical Child who wanted to go in the. You

:41:26.:41:33.

have gone far not been a great parenting or even being a parent at

:41:34.:41:41.

all. If the child had asked me to go into the enclosure, I think I may

:41:42.:41:53.

have my eye on my Child. Does that make sense? We will soon find out

:41:54.:41:58.

when you are a Fowler. There is a serious issue. The idea that gorilla

:41:59.:42:06.

should not be in captivity and the first place. This really as a

:42:07.:42:12.

separate issue. I disagree. I think they preserve the species. As the

:42:13.:42:22.

more superior creatures in the air, I think we have a noble purpose and

:42:23.:42:31.

preserving these animals. The bigger issue is that there are people in

:42:32.:42:37.

the world who clearly care more for animal life than human life. That is

:42:38.:42:45.

why animal rights activists in to be more worried about the animals in

:42:46.:42:49.

captivity than human beings suffering and been killed all across

:42:50.:42:55.

the call. When the sort of thing happens we know it has to debate

:42:56.:42:57.

that the gorilla should have been saved in place of the infant. Surely

:42:58.:43:11.

there is no debate. This idea that we care more for animals and humans.

:43:12.:43:19.

It is indicative of this idea that we keep animals captive for our own

:43:20.:43:24.

entertainment. To conserve the species and activity is -- captivity

:43:25.:43:34.

is wrong. Everything here could've avoided. People blame the parents,

:43:35.:43:41.

people blame the gorilla. If the boy had fallen and died, the zoo would

:43:42.:43:48.

of been held responsible. I think it was sad that the gorilla

:43:49.:43:59.

had to be killed, but the zoo's priority had to be the child's

:44:00.:44:06.

safety. Where were the parents? I think they hold full responsibility

:44:07.:44:10.

for this sad incidents. But none of us were there.

:44:11.:44:21.

Zoos should never have to see this happen. Zoos should look at the

:44:22.:44:26.

enclosures. Ten seconds... This could be easily

:44:27.:44:31.

settled if we could understand the true language of gorillas. We would

:44:32.:44:37.

hang our heads in shame that we have incarcerated these magnificent

:44:38.:44:39.

creatures in glass and concrete enclosures. Where are you in

:44:40.:44:45.

America? I am in Washington, DC. Thank you

:44:46.:44:48.

for joining us. Give our guests a round of applause.

:44:49.:45:00.

Just a quick reminder that there is still time to apply for tickets for

:45:01.:45:10.

next week's show. Go on the BBC website. And the radio show is on

:45:11.:45:20.

Friday from 9p until half past ten. -- from nine o'clock till 1030. Lets

:45:21.:45:30.

see who's online one. They have to uphold our laws. I am incensed by

:45:31.:45:38.

what you have said. The biggest show in the country. A

:45:39.:45:42.

report for the International Monetary Fund has said the

:45:43.:45:46.

Government's cutting down on spending can do the economy more

:45:47.:45:49.

harm than good. The Chancellor says we need to type type -- Titan arbour

:45:50.:45:58.

-- belts. We keep on hearing about cuts. Are they necessary?

:45:59.:46:04.

Absolutely, because what is happening... Not according to the

:46:05.:46:09.

IMF report. They are an elite we don't have to worry about. I am a

:46:10.:46:14.

businessman who was a member of the Tory party. What we have at the

:46:15.:46:19.

moment is last month the debts in the United Kingdom got to ?1.6

:46:20.:46:26.

trillion. Which is 1 million million. To put that in context for

:46:27.:46:30.

your audience tonight, everybody in this audience tonight is ?100,000 in

:46:31.:46:34.

debt, because of Government borrowing. We are paying out. My

:46:35.:46:43.

mortgage is bigger than that! Yes, but you can afford it, Stephen. Your

:46:44.:46:49.

Government put us in ?100,000 of debt. It is not my Government. It is

:46:50.:46:58.

your party. We are in debt today because the banks collapsed, we had

:46:59.:47:01.

to bail them out and we are now paying the price for it. So we got

:47:02.:47:07.

hit twice, we had to bail out the banks, and secondly we lost

:47:08.:47:13.

services. We cannot go back year -- years and years blaming the banks.

:47:14.:47:19.

The day after we stop paying for the banks, we can stop blaming them. The

:47:20.:47:25.

IMF are four was absolutely right. There is a massive problem of

:47:26.:47:29.

underinvestment in the economy... We should say to the people who are

:47:30.:47:33.

hiding their money in Panama, start paying your way in the economy. Come

:47:34.:47:39.

into the real world. We cannot afford to continually increased...

:47:40.:47:45.

We are going to get to a ?2 trillion debt. What about the people who do

:47:46.:47:49.

not pay their taxes? Make them pay their taxes. They are also ?100,000

:47:50.:47:58.

in debt. Because of your Government. I wish you would stop saying that.

:47:59.:48:05.

This man here, go ahead. If austerity actually works, then why

:48:06.:48:07.

for the last five years as the national debt doubled from ?800

:48:08.:48:13.

billion to ?1.7 trillion? We have been doing austerity for five years,

:48:14.:48:18.

and it has doubled. George Osborne brought in austerity five years ago.

:48:19.:48:25.

There are people sitting... There are disabled people sitting in

:48:26.:48:27.

nappies because they have dug deep to care for them for the last three

:48:28.:48:38.

or four macro years. In the last six years the debt has gone up by ?600

:48:39.:48:42.

billion, so we have borrowed ?600 billion... Figures are important,

:48:43.:48:52.

but that man has nailed it. Disabled people are feeling austerity in this

:48:53.:48:57.

country. You are saying it has not happened? Get into the real world!

:48:58.:49:05.

We are paying 120 -- 100 ?20 million every day in interest on those

:49:06.:49:10.

borrowings. We have not borrowed money to pay for public services or

:49:11.:49:15.

to help the disabled or to help people in our communities. We have

:49:16.:49:18.

borrowed money to bail out banks and to bail out failing businesses. That

:49:19.:49:24.

was the Labour Government... That's over the last six years. The United

:49:25.:49:32.

States has not done austerity, in the last five years they spent money

:49:33.:49:37.

on infrastructure etc, and its economy is growing. Our economy is

:49:38.:49:40.

absolutely stagnating. We need to change something. Go ahead, front

:49:41.:49:50.

row. Is it not morally repulsive to chase a political goal when you are

:49:51.:49:54.

dealing with real people's lives? Everybody here's in debt, we all

:49:55.:49:59.

have a moral obligation to the most vulnerable. Have you felt the cuts,

:50:00.:50:06.

or people around you felt it? More so people around me, and members of

:50:07.:50:11.

my family, they depend on housing benefit and things like that. It is

:50:12.:50:16.

not fair on them when they don't have that much control over their

:50:17.:50:22.

own lives. How do you respond to that? We cannot continue to borrow,

:50:23.:50:26.

you cannot borrow your way out of debt. We have to get it down, we

:50:27.:50:32.

have to start -- stop paying ?120 million per day. You can argue for

:50:33.:50:36.

more taxes, but we can't keep spending money we are not earning.

:50:37.:50:40.

You know what it is like with your budget every month, you have income

:50:41.:50:44.

and expenditure, if you continually spend more than you earn, sooner or

:50:45.:50:48.

later your bank will call you in and say you are getting no more. That is

:50:49.:50:52.

what is going to happen sooner or later. Showed Stormont challenge

:50:53.:51:01.

Aust -- austerity, this new Government? They are cooperating

:51:02.:51:09.

with austerity, they are implementing David Cameron's

:51:10.:51:11.

programme. They should be standing up for the people of Northern

:51:12.:51:20.

Ireland. Actually I heard myself... The fresh start agreement is an

:51:21.:51:25.

austerity agreement, and the Northern Ireland Assembly intends to

:51:26.:51:28.

implement 20,000 private -- public service job cuts. I work in

:51:29.:51:37.

education... Up to 20,000. Secondly, we have a new Finance Minister, who

:51:38.:51:42.

has said he is going to push back against austerity and he has said in

:51:43.:51:52.

fact he wants to borrow more... If politicians would cut the money they

:51:53.:51:58.

spend on segregation in this country... The expenditure is there.

:51:59.:52:04.

Teachers are being laid off. We in the union movement are fighting to

:52:05.:52:08.

keep mental health services open. Our members are striking on Friday

:52:09.:52:13.

to try to protect local services in towns across Northern Ireland.

:52:14.:52:19.

Strikes don't help. They send a message to politicians and the

:52:20.:52:25.

electoral officers, jobs are disappearing. Stormont has to live

:52:26.:52:33.

the budget it has. Absolutely. It is time they learn to live within it. I

:52:34.:52:39.

for one, and I don't know about this audience, but spending ?1 billion a

:52:40.:52:45.

year on segregation, keeping you good people apart, that money could

:52:46.:52:51.

be spent on many, many things. Are you saying keeping people in work is

:52:52.:53:04.

crazy? No, keeping people apart. They haven't even tried to start.

:53:05.:53:10.

How would you... How would you repair the divisions in this

:53:11.:53:16.

country? Knock down the peace walls of the night? No, but if you take

:53:17.:53:21.

the time I come from, Ballymena has one leisure centre. If we have the

:53:22.:53:26.

same number of leisure centres as in Belfast we would have sex. There are

:53:27.:53:29.

far too many leisure centres in Belfast, all because of segregation.

:53:30.:53:35.

-- we would have six leisure centres. Segregation and

:53:36.:53:43.

sectarianism is not about making more cuts. That does not help the

:53:44.:53:51.

problem. When you start by saying maybe we have too many leisure

:53:52.:53:56.

centres, do we have too many GPs, hospitals? We do not. We need an

:53:57.:54:00.

economy that is creating jobs, and you would undermine sectarianism...

:54:01.:54:10.

Do you think people are feeling cuts in this country? No, the standard of

:54:11.:54:15.

living in this country... Is anybody in this audience feeling the cuts?

:54:16.:54:19.

Young lady here. Front row, go ahead. Even people here are feeling

:54:20.:54:29.

the cuts. We are just scraping by, scrimping and saving just to pay the

:54:30.:54:34.

rent and have food for the week. You are living on cloud nine, made! --

:54:35.:54:45.

mate. Is she said you are living on cloud nine, mate. The cloud I am

:54:46.:54:52.

living on is one where we are spending money we do not have. But

:54:53.:54:57.

you said people are not feeling the cuts! There are special cases... It

:54:58.:55:06.

is not just -- special cases, it is millions of people in this country!

:55:07.:55:14.

There is only a possibility of 1.7 million. People have seen their

:55:15.:55:23.

health service attack, the education service attack. But you cannot

:55:24.:55:28.

continue borrowing money. We are out of time, give our guests a round of

:55:29.:55:33.

applause, thank you. Right, now, before we go tonight we have a

:55:34.:55:38.

special musical treat. This year marks the 21st anniversary of the

:55:39.:55:41.

hit movie the commitments, and we have a singing star. He is here

:55:42.:55:49.

tonight with a classic song, Mustang Sally, let's hear

:55:50.:55:50.

# Guess you better slow your Mustang down

:55:51.:56:12.

# Guess you better slow that Mustang down

:56:13.:56:29.

# You been runnin' all over the town

:56:30.:56:33.

# I guess you got to put your flat feet on the ground

:56:34.:56:49.

# All you wanna do is ride around, Sally

:56:50.:56:51.

# All you wanna do is ride around, Sally

:56:52.:56:57.

# All you wanna do is ride around, Sally

:56:58.:57:05.

# All you wanna do is ride around, Sally

:57:06.:57:13.

# I'm gonna be wipin' those weepin' eyes

:57:14.:57:35.

# I bought you a brand-new Mustang, it was a natural '65

:57:36.:57:46.

# I bought you a brand-new Mustang, it was a 1965

:57:47.:57:48.

# Now you comin' round signifyin' a woman

:57:49.:57:50.

# Girl you won't, you won't let me ride

:57:51.:57:52.

# Guess you better slow that Mustang down

:57:53.:58:03.

# You been a runnin' all over the town

:58:04.:58:09.

# Oh, I guess you got to put your flat feet on the ground

:58:10.:58:22.

# All you wanna do is ride around, Sally

:58:23.:58:25.

# All you wanna do is ride around, Sally

:58:26.:58:33.

# All you wanna do is ride around, Sally

:58:34.:58:41.

# All you wanna do is ride around, Sally

:58:42.:58:49.

# I'm gonna be wipin' those weepin' eyes

:58:50.:59:12.

That's what I've got to do now, girl... Those weeping hours... Oh,

:59:13.:59:24.

baby! The build-up to the Euro 2016

:59:25.:00:02.

finals continues.

:00:03.:00:07.

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