Episode 4 Nolan Live

Tonight: After ten

months of talks...

No deal.

Better still, the politicians

won't even tell us what they're

still disagreeing about.

Also on the programme:

Weinstein, Spacey,

Westminster's 'dirty dossiers'.

We'll be talking about the sexual

harassment scandals.

APPLAUSE

Good evening. We want an audience

ready to talk and ready to know what

is going on up on the hill.

There ain't no deal,

there ain't no government

in Northern Ireland.

Dress it up whatever way you want,

but that's the reality.

No locally accountable

people that you can look

into the whites of their eyes,

because they haven't got the power.

Here's James Brokenshire

this morning.

As I have outlined previously, there

are consequences to not being able

to bring forward this legislation

this week. It is the

responsibilities of the parties to

form an executive to take forward

its own budget. But, as I have

indicated, it is now very unlikely

that an executive will be in place,

within a timetable to pass a budget

by the end of November.

And yet the mixed messages continue.

Only yesterday, Sinn Fein's

Conor Murphy spelled

things out crystal clear.

We have made it clear that if the

British Secretary of State stands in

the House of Commons to move the

budget, but is clear that this phase

of the talks has failed.

Conor Murphy is saying

this phase has failed.

It's over, it's gone.

And yet Arlene Foster seems to think

the talks can continue.

It is right the Secretary of State

has said he has to go and put a

budget in place. The people of

Northern Ireland need to have their

public services on a legal footing

and they need to have the money to

spend in relation to that. It is

writing moves ahead with that. It

doesn't stop was continuing to

engage with Sinn Fein and try to

find a solution to the problems we

have.

What is going on?

These people will

never agree. We make it sound as

though this is astonishing that they

have difficulty now. They have had

difficulty from day one.

Constructive ambiguity, three people

saying entirely different things

about the same statement. They are

not speaking to each other. It

doesn't matter, I still think they

will stick something together, but

it doesn't matter because it will

not withstand contact with the first

difficulty. That could be six months

later or three months later. It

gives no pleasure in saying this, I

think the whole process began is now

dead. I don't think it is possible

for either the DUP and Sinn Fein,

however you want to cut the cookie,

I don't think you can reconcile

those differences.

We think it is

dead, gone. Conor Murphy says it is

dead and over. Arlene Foster says we

will continue talking.

You can put a

bit of money to health and

education, but they are two polar

opposites. He won Sinn Fein who want

a united Ireland, how do you push

those together in a compromise? It

is not physically, politically,

psychologically possible.

Where the

public being taken for fools when

they were told there is momentum? I

am hearing from sources that they

didn't get anywhere close to the big

red lines that with there ten months

ago?

It is difficult to answer that

on because it has been secrecy

around the switch as suited the DUP

and Sinn Fein. It would have been a

problem if they had done a

last-minute deal because they were

in a position where those supporters

thought they weren't compromising.

So those supporters would have been

up in arms. That was the difficulty.

Actually whether they were just

going through the motions, or they

were moving, is difficult to tell.

The DUP were moving on the Irish

language to the extent that there

would have been some kind of

cultural act. Sinn Fein did drop,

without saying it explicitly, it

demanded Arlene Foster stand aside,

but that has gone now.

Going to the

audience straightaway.

My husband

has been in hospital for 14 weeks.

He's waiting to be transferred from

one hospital to another, when is

going to happen that the government

get together because there are

thousands of people on waiting list.

As you know, it is brought up on

your show every week, why can't they

work together, get a budget, get

something sorted, get the health

system into a state where we can be

proud.

What is your first name?

Catherine.

Catherine, it is beyond

that, they cannot tell you why they

cannot agree. You are not entitled

to know as a citizen. They tell you

you have got to give its space, let

us do the negotiations

behind-the-scenes. In terms of the

finer detail, maybe they do have to

have space, but are you not entitled

as a citizen to be told now, why

they couldn't reach a compromise?

How they got close, what they got

closer on? It is all being kept away

from people like you and your

husband. They were invited here

tonight. They think they can say no

to me all they want, but they are

saying no to you, your husband and

every other citizen in this country,

they beg for votes at election time.

They should have it taken off them

because they are not doing what they

were voted to do. As a country we

voted these people in. I stood up

and gave them my vote, and now I

wish I hadn't. They don't talk, they

are not doing anything for this

country. It is the people here, we

are suffering.

They don't understand

that. The man behind you?

It has got

to a point where it is a bit of a

joke now. I feel politicians, first

of all I would like to point out I

am not a fan of direct rule, I think

it would be a disaster but the

parties here have failed time and

time again to deliver the mandate

that put them there. Something along

the lines of direct rule would give

a shock for future assemblies to be

far more stable?

Is James

Brokenshire I going to do something

if there is direct rule or will he

stall further?

He has got a lot of

licensed to do what he likes. He has

bent over backwards, suffered

humiliation on a scale you would not

expect a minister to suffer and he

can turn round and do anything. He

can say, you had your chance, I did

everything to give you the space.

Why is he humiliated?

He sets

deadlines and let them go. He looks

like a dog. It is very unkind to say

that about a man, but he has

somebody who has no particular

initiative. That is the role he has

been given. He may be a political

wizard, but his job is essentially

to be the long-suffering, patient

Tory Brits, who is putting up with

the truculence intransigent Irish.

That is what he's doing, he is

playing that role. When they do

decide to wrap up this Sherrard, he

can do whatever he likes.

Do you not

think there is potential here for a

deal to be done and Northern Ireland

to be on the right tracks?

There was

a virtuous circle at one time. I

remember visiting Arlene Foster in

her office when she was environment

minister, in the first week. Conor

Murphy was in the next office. There

was a warmth in the relationship. It

has all gone. We have turned it from

one point in a virtuous circle and

the votes came from doing things

well and doing things well, to a

vicious circle and doing things

badly. Catherine said she voted for

them to do a job, a lot of people

voted for them not to do the job. A

lot of people voted to go in and

poke the eye of the opposition.

They

voted the Sinn Fein and the DUP

unspecific mandates. They have been

briefing journalists this week to

said there was no deal on the

equality issues. It was the ticket

they stood on and the ticket that

got the biggest national vote since

the Good Friday Agreement. They will

not move.

People were told a couple

of weeks ago there was an element of

positivity, some momentum?

As we

came back after the summer, I think

there was a chance to make a deal

then. But it is Arlene Foster's

problem, not Sinn Fein. They have

laid out our position, they will not

move from that. Arlene Foster had a

chance to make a deal on the Irish

language act and the culture act,

she has gone hard line and now she

has no chance of getting a deal now.

I think the leaderships of Sinn Fein

and the DUP would potentially be

able to strike a deal. The real

issue is the people of Northern

Ireland have said they don't want

this, they have endorsed and

supported what has happened.

Let me

talk about this one more time and

this is a genuine question to all of

you watching tonight.

is it OK that the politicians

are not telling you about

these negotiations?

Is it all right to say, sorry, we

will keep that to ourselves.

We get it - give them space,

we don't need the detail -

but are you not entitled to be kept

informed and know about

the negotiations that

will impact on your life?

Are you not entitled to know

where they now stand

on these various red lines

of the past ten months?

Let me illustrate this

with one example.

Have the DUP moved on the promise

that Arlene Foster gave

to the electorate when she

said this in February.

I will never accede to allow Irish

language lacked?

Is Arlene Foster and the DUP keeping

her promise that she will never

accept that or behind the scenes, it

is the DUP watering down that

promise? You don't know because they

will not tell you. A stand-alone

Irish Language Act, is that

different from a language act, you

don't know because they won't tell

you. And Sinn Fein are keeping you

in the dark. Are they negotiating

the promise Gerry Adams made about

Irish language. Let's have a looked.

So what are they negotiating behind

the scenes? Why will they not tell

you?

What can they be saying?

How

many times? It is respect for these

people and everybody watching that

they think they don't have to tell

them!

If you imagine there would be

any substance, I can't imagine how

boring it must be for the

politicians themselves to sit at a

table and say Irish Language Act,

stand-alone, not stand-alone.

Legacy

is a big stumbling block in the

consultation on legacy has the start

and the DUP before the 2015 election

stopped the money for Legacy

inquest. Sinn Fein were briefing

people saying that Legacy was a

stumbling block.

And we have not

even got yet to RHI. If Sinn Fein

still sticking to the promised they

would not go into government again

if Arlene Foster was proposed as

First Minister or can they just

forget about that?

If they somehow

get a deal done, that has been

settled. I think it has been. You do

not say, we have done this, but you

cannot be First Minister, that is

not going to happen. They promised

it. They promised everything, nobody

gives a dam! You say about not

telling the public.

No, look at this

graphic. You seem to think it is OK

this happens in Northern Ireland.

Look at this on much the fourth. --

marched forth.

That is RHI. Is there a secret

negotiation going on which means

Sinn Fein is not honouring that?

Let's not call it a secret

negotiation. There is quite clearly

an understanding and that has been

in place from the beginning. This is

no longer about the RHI. When we

talk along about the trust, bear in

mind a year ago Martin McGuinness,

Arlene Foster wrote a joint article

published not in the local newspaper

saying how wonderful things work of

the relationship between the macro

and Sinn Fein was better than ever

and we were going forward to a

brand-new wonderful world of

Northern Ireland. Six weeks later,

RHI hit, that was not the killer

damage, the killer damage was the

resignation letter of Martin

McGuinness which said the DUP do not

honour anything, they cannot be

trusted, they have no interest in

the Good Friday Agreement and some

senior DUP figures do not even talk

to him. He said that for years. We

were saying on your programme these

people hate each other. You say

about the relationship between them,

there is no relationship between

them, if there was a civil and

honest relationship between these

people, they would have found a way

to do a deal.

In the audience, the

guy in the glasses.

On what you

said, these talks we hadn't secret

between Sinn Fein and the DUP, do

the public not deserve to know what

is being discussed. Then there can

be no excuse for anyone involved and

the public can judge them.

Are we

being naive expecting them to tell

the public?

There is an element

where we are being naive, if these

negotiations are serious, they will

be in private. If they are breaking

down, it will erupt into the public

and we have seen it a bit in the

summer when things did drift apart.

Back to what Alex said, there is a

profound issue in terms of the

democratic mandate Sinn Fein in

particular have. They stood on one

red line issue, you know this

because you tease it repeatedly, the

one MEDLINE issue was not the Irish

Language Act, they repeatedly

refused to say that was a key issue,

the deal-breaker was Arlene Foster.

It is all very well to say that is

politics and you can pass that acai,

but that is very dangerous.

They

said by Christmas, but women came

back in I disagree, I think the

straw that broke the camel's back

was that they played it out so badly

in Sinn Fein's heartland where they

were haemorrhaging votes. They knew

they had to do something.

Back to

the audience.

In the glasses. I no

longer what a deal, I want a new

government that represents the

people in my society, my peers.

There is a lack of women in our

government.

Let me help the cameras

find you.

There is a lack of women

and members from the LGBT community,

there is a lack of people from

ethnic minority groups. We can talk

about a deal all we want.

You don't

want a deal, game over?

I want a new

government, I am worried about my

future that is in the hands of these

politicians, over these petty

issues. It worries me and it worries

my peers. This is our beach, the

economy, get over these sectarian

issues!

Gay marriage is not a

sectarian issue, RHI and Arlene

Foster's right to be First Minister

is not a petty issue. Is the

language act a petty issue?

No, it

is an issue with equal rights in our

community and our government. I feel

our government does not reflect

society.

We don't have a government.

What is your message to those

politicians?

Get your act together

because you are worrying is and you

are discouraging people to go into

politics. How old are you? I'm 16.

My goodness, and you feel like that.

And I know that some of our young

people from the top table show

designed for young people interested

in getting into politics, to give

them a seat at the table politics,

they are here tonight. How are you

feeling about this, Archie?

Raising

the issue of the Irish Language Act

and red lines and statements that

have been made, it is well and good,

but to be honest, it is smoke and

mirrors and it is empty words. If

you want to see something really

telling, look at the position the

parties are in at the minute. The

DUP enjoying their strongest

position in Westminster they have

ever held and Sinn Fein who, like it

or not, they don't mind if the

Government does not form and that is

the sad things. These two parties do

not mind if they got it is not

formed and these negotiations are a

sham.

Would you like your future in

Northern Ireland in their hands?

Not

at the minute, especially they

cannot negotiate together and they

do not want to negotiate together

because it suits them and their best

interests are not have the

Government. They are not doing any

work and they are getting paid.

Their pay is getting increased which

is absolutely absurd considering

they are not doing their work.

I

understand when you are coming from.

I would agree in terms of, you

touched upon...

You are a Sinn Fein

supporter?

Yes. I would say more

than anything these human rights

issues, you cannot ignore them. I

understand concerns about health and

education, I am 22 myself and it

means as much to me as the young

girl on the back row, but is there

any point having a government if you

do not look at equality issues? Some

people are saying get to the table

and continue the game, but can you

continue if you are not dealing with

the issues on the table because

hadn't -- how can you represent

those people if you do not work out

the issues like marriage equality

and the Irish Language Act and basic

human rights?

Sinn Fein has a

problem because it went to the

election on issues like RHI and

Arlene Foster, and also same-sex

marriage and they rallied a huge gay

vote for the Assembly electorate on

the promise they would still the

same-sex marriage. You cannot

deliver same-sex marriage for the

gay community in Northern Ireland

unless you have an Assembly in which

you can pass legislation. So the

people who gave their vote Sinn Fein

and inflated the Sinn Fein vote on

those issues, a lot of them will

simply disillusioned.

You can have

same-sex marriage. We see the

abortion issue was dealt with very

quickly through Westminster without

any Executive and running, Stella

Creasy proposed one motion and it

was dealt with and same-sex marriage

could be dealt with in the same way.

While this is going on, guess what?

Stormont is costly in terms of MLA

salaries and expenses. Guess what it

is costing you? An estimated £1

million per month. That is salaries

and expenses.

This is what the MLAs cost in terms

of a salary per month, what do you

think about that?

That is a lot of

money and if they are not doing

anything, they are not doing a job,

you would have to look at it.

MLAs

getting there.

Very, what you think?

I think their salary should be

stopped until they get the Assembly

up and running again.

Take away

their wages and they might consider

it quicker and get it sorted.

A lot

of hard-working people up there will

not say, criticise them when they

have nothing to do with what is

going on behind the scenes.

The NHS

and the police and the teachers, so

many people out there working

everyday. I think they need to go

back to work.

To pay for the MLAs,

salaries and expenses for one month,

what do you think of that?

I think

that is absolutely horrific! I did

not realise taxpayers were paying

that out on money.

They think they

are doing their constituency work

which is the most important thing.

But obviously, we don't have any

Executive, which is horrific.

2.5

million is what it costs for you the

taxpayer to pay Stormont is not

including the salaries or their

expenses, what do you think about?

Ridiculous! It could be on

education, hospitals, different

ways. These guys are just...

Northern Ireland politics is just a

joke. And it is not some type of

abstract motion. When you go out to

work and you see the text taken out

and you see the money coming out of

your top line, that is your money

that is spent, what do you think

about this?

Just frustrated that

they can still take a full salary,

it is ten months and they have not

done an awful lot of sitting round

the table but they are still

expecting full pay, I cannot

understand it.

Naomi Long said she

thinks MLAs should be given a 30%

pay cut, some people applauded that,

other people said that was her being

crafty because she wanted to cap it

at 30% and it should go more. What

you think it should be?

Even 30%

will be something. If you are

talking the figures of £1 million,

30% to give back. They do nothing

and still expect a full salary and

it is never mentioned.

They are not

doing nothing, they are doing

constituency work.

Even 30%. They

cannot justify taking a full salary

and not be brought up.

Mr

Brokenshire has talked about this. I

will also now be looking for formal

independent advice on what steps

should be taken to reflect the

current circumstances in MLA pay.

Do

you think he means it? Is he going

to give these people a pay cut and

should he?

Look how he has handled

the deadlines, the MLAs are not

taking this seriously when there is

no deadline attached. It will come

at some point, that is inevitable,

but the difficulty, I'm surprised

the smaller parties have not

voluntarily come forward and taken

the moral high ground and take a cut

they are urging others to do, but it

is not just a risk for the MLAs, but

for the comment because they are

seen as dependent on the DUP and the

DUP is vocal on this issue. This is

not because of the DUP, there are

wider issues, these people cannot be

allowed, an entire generation of

politicians in Northern Ireland,

which is what MLAs are, cannot be

allowed to simply be put onto the

scrapheap. That would not happen. If

it seems the DUP tail is wagging the

dog, that is damaging for the

Government.

If they continue to get

back money and the march on as if

nothing has changed in Northern

Ireland, and they are doing the job

they were doing in government, the

only people affected by this is this

audience and the people at home who

are on waiting lists, whose lives

are not improved and education and

roads, all that stuff is not being

decided by locally accounted people.

If they continue to get their money.

There is a significant argument they

are still doing some of the jobs and

they should get half the salary,

there will be on the street and 22

-- and £25,000, the average salary

Northern Ireland.

It will damage the

smaller parties like the SDLP.

Alliance. With expenses. You could

end up starving out the only hope

you have of some kind of diversity

within politics.

Has Mr Brokenshire,

if it were to be the right decision,

has he got the courage to cut their

money. I think they were removed by

Theresa May months ago!

In terms of

the salaries, it is worth bearing in

mind we make it sound as though

everything going wrong in the health

service and education and

destruction and economics in

Northern Ireland only happened in

the past tense months, it is a

serial product of eight, ten years.

We are paying too much for the

amount of legislation and difference

they have made our lives, they are

already vastly overpaid and it is

offensive. Brokenshire should not be

threatening them, just close the

place down. If you are going to

shock people, do something they are

not expecting.

You are admitting the Good Friday

Agreement is over if you shut it

down? We are living under Tory

austerity. The last political crisis

took five years before there was a

threat of cutting salaries. I doubt

James Brokenshire will do anything.

He is taking advice.

It is like

being hit with a feather duster come

he doesn't have the power and has

lost all validity at this point.

I

spoke to James quite a lot, he would

come on five live at the drop of a

hat no problem, he becomes Secretary

of State and I cannot get access to

him. This lady in the glasses, go

ahead.

The world has had global

upheaval in politics. In America

they rejected going from one Bush to

another, from one Clinton to

another. They threw in Donald Trump.

We don't need a Donald Trump but we

need something different. Stephen,

Ring a few of your friends, go for

it yourself, lead us.

APPLAUSE

You do know McBride is trying to

keep his face tray.

It is your

mother's face.

Can be any worse than

what we have got, we have got

nothing. Stephen, we would respect

anybody you could gather together,

we would have more respect for the

people.

That tells you something,

the people have no faith in us any

more.

Even if they did but it back

together at next month, who believes

it would last?

It has fallen so many

times? The fundamental issue,

Stormont was superb when it was

there, but nobody is marching on the

streets to get Stormont back. People

don't want it back because it was a

shining beacon, it didn't transform

the health service, waiting lists

were out of control before this

collapse. If they had succeeded for

ten years, they might have had some

capital...

De think the Good Friday

Agreement is dead?

I don't think it

is dead, but I think it will change

into something else. I think we are

headed to some grand bree

negotiation and look at a coalition

and seemed it is ready for Sinn Fein

to veto in the shape of a government

and that will be under discussion.

Ladies and gentlemen, give the panel

a round of applause.

APPLAUSE

They are forcing me to talk about

the biggest non-diet in the country.

I will be weighing in after the show

and revealing my latest progress.

I need to tell you that I got Wade

Elliott and I have put three on.

Right, he's known as

'The People's Tenor'.

His dad was a welder and his mum

worked in Woolworths.

No formal voice

training for this guy.

But that hasn't stopped him selling

over seven million albums,

with The New York Times saying

'he sings like Pavarotti,

and entertains the audience

like Sinatra.' He's here

in the studio tonight

performing 'You Raise Me Up'.

Welcome, please, Russell Watson!

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

# When I am down

and, oh, my soul, so weary

# When troubles come

and my heart burdened be

# Then I am still and wait

here in the silence

# Until you come and

sit awhile with me

# You raise me up

so I can stand on mountains

# You raise me up

to walk on stormy seas

# I am strong

when I am on your shoulders

# You raise me up

to more than I can be

# Each restless heart beats so

imperfectly.

# Sometimes I think I glimpse

eternity.

# # You raise me up

so I can stand on mountains

# You raise me up

to walk on stormy seas

# I am strong

when I am on your shoulders

# You raise me up

to more than I can be

# You raise me up

so I can stand on mountains

# You raise me up

to walk on stormy seas

# I am strong

when I am on your shoulders

# You raise me up to

more than I can be #.

APPLAUSE

Russell will be playing at the

waterfront on the 6th of December.

APPLAUSE

Right, allegations of sexual abuse

and harassment against men

are wall-to-wall at the moment.

Weinstein, Spacey,

and then tonight, this

from the Defence Secretary,

Michael Fallon.

In recent days, allegations have

been made about MPs' conduct,

including my own.

Many of these

allegations have been false, but I

realise that in the past, I may have

fallen below the high standards that

we require of the Armed Forces that

I have the honour to represent. I

have reflected now on my position in

government and I am therefore

resigning as Defence Secretary.

So this was a huge

talking point this week.

People are thinking, serious

allegations, where has this come

from?

This is quite shocking. Events

in the last hour or so. I came on

here expecting to defend Michael

Fallon. I had rehearsed quite a good

argument. He has now fallen on his

sword. You can only assume he has

done so, not only because he put a

hand on Julie Hartley Brewer's knee,

which he has dismissed because she

is a robust woman. I can only assume

there is more in the pipeline and he

had to resign because more people

will come out.

Michael Fallon, that

is in the news tonight, fair enough.

But there are some instances and

examples of harassment that you are

saying doesn't really mean

harassment?

Yes. But at one end of

the spectrum is Harvey Weinstein and

Jimmy Savile, complete monsters that

nobody in their right mind could

defend, at the other end there is a

clumsy comment whilst drunk or a

pass made to a colleague that didn't

quite go right. Maybe an

inappropriate touch or something

like that. Those people, at the

moment, there are some people that

insist anything as mild as that is,

they should lose their jobs and

livelihoods and their career is

over.

Let's look at the alias star

from the wedding singer, Adam

Sandler. We know him well.

was on Graham Norton this week.

Have a look at this.

I was nominated for a golden Globe

and I took my parents. They invited

themselves, but anyway. My mother,

just get excited...

Is that

something many people got upset

about, should they have done?

I

personally didn't find it upsetting,

but if she found it upsetting then

that is her right. If she didn't

feel comfortable, then he probably

shouldn't have done it.

How would he

know. If he puts his hand on your

knee, you wouldn't have found it

upsetting, he puts it on her knee,

she is upset and is in trouble. Is

that the world we are in?

There is

an element now, how we have two

approach people, some people will

say things in front of me that I

don't find offensive, but I am

strong and I don't find innuendos

too bad. But if I was younger, maybe

I might have found it a bit

overwhelming and wouldn't have felt

comfortable. As we get older we

become more sure of ourselves as

women and can handle more things,

but it depends. She obviously didn't

like it, that is fair enough. Again,

some people are tactile.

Jonathan in

the front row.

Regards this issue,

there has to be a fine line between

banter, if you know the person and

sexual harassment.

What is the line?

Maybe, I am friendly with you,

joking about, that is different but

if I go to somebody and grope

somebody on a regular basis or even

one off and it makes that person

uncomfortable, it is sexual

harassment. Kevin Spacey, it is

almost double standards for the

elites, people in the government, it

is brushed aside. If it had been

anybody else, he would have been

facing time.

I think in as well, if

you kind of need to grow up. It's

not harmful.

What isn't harmful?

Touching her knee, like Adam Sandler

did.

To me, it wouldn't have been

offensive, but you have to gauge the

person you deal with. You cannot

assume. We were discussing it, when

summer comes into the workplace and

they are young, it is not

appropriate for me to speak to you

and way and maybe banter with

Stephen. Because we are equal in age

and we have lived the same life

experiences, probably.

I doubt I

have had the same life experiences

as you!

We are the same age, we

could probably handle a bit of

banter. But I wouldn't be talking to

you like that until you got to know

me and he knew the kind of person I

was. It is about respecting someone

and giving them time to grow and

give them time to get to know you.

Christine Hamilton tonight, I have

no idea, where is she, Bristol.

Commiserations, Bristol. Something

happened to you, which I found

really interesting, tell us about

the cupboard incident?

There wasn't

a cupboard, I started working at the

house of, in 1971 when I was 21,

fresh out of university and starry

eyed about the place. I thought I

was in heaven. Of course there was

flotation, but nothing very much.

The incident you are referring to,

he was a junior minister at the time

and he got a sort of thing about me.

He was married, I wasn't. He started

to send me flowers, which was kind

of all right, only twice and I

didn't return them. He came into my

office and shut the door behind him,

turned the key and put it in his

pocket.

He locked you in a room?

He

locked me in my own office. I told

him he was being ridiculous and he

had to stop this, stop sending me

flowers.

How did he react?

He calmed

down a bit and then I made it

perfectly...

What do you mean, calm

down?

You know perfectly well what I

mean.

Was he trying to sexually

harass you?

Of course he was.

That was the reason he came into the

door. I am not going into the

details. I did not give him a

chance. I was determined I was not

going to be taken advantage of and I

made my position absolutely clear.

But what worries me about the

situation in Westminster, obviously

it seems to me there had been some

very serious incidents and by the

way, Michael Fallon has not resigned

because of inappropriate behaviour,

he has resigned because he has been

found out. I think he is clearly

about to be found out with other

things.

We do not know that and

let's not speculate on a live

television programme. I am

interested, the situation you

encountered. I do say if that junior

Minister was a junior Minister now

and did anything close to that, that

he would be gone. If you wanted to

press the button, is that guy still

in politics?

I am not going to say

who he is or any more about him.

I

don't want you to say who he is.

Would he lose his job if you named

him?

No, because he does not have a

job any more. But I would never have

dreamt of blaming him because it was

not that important, it was just

stuff that happens. I was able and

mature enough to deal with it. I am

not saying it is the right sort of

behaviour and if he had done that on

somebody less able to handle it, it

would have been grotesque.

Is that

serious? Is that acceptable what

happened?

Yes, absolutely it is

serious and no, it is not

acceptable. When she said just now

it is just stuff that happens, I

giggled -- giggle went through the

audience. That is really

distressing. I mean, it is stuff

that happens, I agree, it happens

far more often than people admit and

people tell. People might tell each

other on the quiet, but people do

not often come forward with these

stories because they realise that

they will be, you know, it is no big

deal, it will be dismissed. Or if

they do raise it in a workplace

sometimes, they can be punished for

what they are saying. Particularly

the person who has done it is in a

position of power over them.

It

kicked off big-time on the Nolan

radio show, it was a lady called

Cathy and the broadcaster said, a

woman needs to be capital about what

they are wearing. It is a factor. In

the same way you would tell your

child, at your young teenage

daughter or your son, don't walk

down a dark street and don't wear

provocative clothing, be sensible.

He went ballistic. I did, I think we

are beyond that stage in our lives.

We are not living in Victorian times

where a woman shows her ankles and

that is incredibly racist -- racy.

We have grown up and we understand

better and it is not acceptable.

Girls and guys can wear whatever

they like, nobody has a right to

touch you based on what you were.

Nobody has a right to the chair.

Nobody has. -- based on what you

wear. For another woman to judge a

woman in that way is absolutely

disgraceful and she is now better to

me than somebody who lives in Saudi

Arabia and blames a woman and tells

her to carry the responsibility of

how a man looks at her and treats

her.

I 100% agree, women should wear

whatever they went come -- whatever

they want, as should men. There is a

bigger picture. There will be much

more, this is the tip of the

iceberg. I know of seven, eight

people in the UK, in Ireland and in

the States who have paid people to

stay out of the press, that will

implode with big stories hitting the

headlines. But why are they coming

to the press now? I am a journalist

and a showbiz writer and I love

people coming to me with stories,

but what I am seeing is a disturbing

trend of people using the media to

get revenge on these people.

Hold on

a minute, they picked him is! They

are coming to the media...

He is

criticising them. This is the world

we live in, Facebook, Twitter.

Tough! I am worried about this

because I am a journalist and I like

people coming with stories, hands on

that. People are going a newspaper

and often... Agents have been on the

phone in the last couple of days

trying to sell stories on their own

artists to come forward. We are

going to reveal this sexual

allegation in your newspaper. I am

sane people are using the media now

instead of going to the police or

somebody who can really help them.

This is disturbing and it will

implode.

There are good reasons why

people do not go to the police, a

lot of women do not feel safe, they

will not be believed and taken

seriously.

They would rather be on

the front page of a tabloid saying

somebody abuse than 20 years ago?

It

is insanity! If it is somebody

famous or powerful and it is public,

that person cannot take revenge and

ruin somebody's career in a way they

can if the police have a quiet word

with them and it is kept quiet.

We

have to be careful we do not end up

tarnishing perfectly innocent

situations, when you look at Cliff

Richard. There are arguments.

Hands

up in the audience, the back row, go

ahead.

First, it is more than

anything, I find in society today,

there is lives and what not. What I

would like to say, how come in the

media, you tend to find it is all be

Mills coming forward? Why is there

not males this may have happened to?

Some males, not as many, have come

forward.

It is not as dominant, if a

man comes out and does what these

women have been doing, it is the end

of a career.

Is there the same

reaction if it happens to a man as

it happens to a woman? Take as an

example, a Christmas party and a

woman goes up and feels a guy's

backside. Is that seen in any way to

be more trivial than if a man went

up and did it to a woman?

It is

absolutely more trivial. Men

generally don't complain. They will

take whatever they can get!

Hold on

a second, the audience is laughing.

You are joking about it. It is told

in a different way. That would be

sexual harassment, sexual assault.

Allegation to the police.

To come

from a man to complain about sexual

harassment, it really would be

viewed as beyond the pale.

It is

career ending, it would be madness.

What sort of a moan or are you

complaining about this woman, just

ignore it!

Imagine if he said

tomorrow, I was sexually harassed by

some major actress and she was

touching me up. The woman -- the

women would be laughing.

I think we

have changed, I disagree. I think we

have changed and we are starting to

learn how to treat people better. It

is about mutual respect and

understanding how to treat each

other when we first meet. When you

get to meet each other, there is a

possibility of that kind of banter,

but Christine Hamilton, if that had

happened to me, I would be

absolutely...

She is giggling about

being locked in a room, that worries

me.

We should not talk about you.

Did you find it funny what happens

to you, are you going about it?

I

certainly am not giggling about it,

absolutely not. It was a very

unnerving situation and I was able

to deal with it. One thing we have

to remember is that that was 35

years ago, roughly that. Standards

have changed. It is not excusable

Ben, but standards have changed and

what was acceptable longer go...

Kevin Spacey is being done for some

stuff that was many decades ago.

I

know, that is absolutely ludicrous,

I think. What I think is in danger

of happening at Westminster is that

serious allegations that have been

made and I think will come out, they

are in danger of drowning in a sea

of this artichoke be about knee

touching and this sort of thing.

What you define as trivia? This is

the point, where'd you draw the

line? One person's trivia is

assault.

Sending your secondary out

for example for sex toys, is that

the trivia?

As I understand it, he

did not send her out, they were both

out together somewhere. He sent her

in. Into the shop. What amazes me is

that a middle-aged woman was

prepared to do that. If somebody had

asked me to do that, I would have

laughed and said, don't be so

ridiculous, go and get your own! It

is quite extraordinary that she

allowed herself to be used in that

way, but that is her decision.

That

is down to personality. It is about

power. It is about power because she

felt to do it. And that is where

there is a lack of respect from him

to expect her to go and do that.

That is a lack of respect.

There are

a lot of hands up.

Whether or not

you come forward and report issues

of sexual harassment is down to

things like whether you are strong

enough or mature enough or your

personality type? Does that created

situation whereby people do not come

forward because they are perceived

as weak or image all or not

sufficiently robust to do with the

situations?

I certainly did not mean

it that way, like Christine, she was

unnerved by what happened but

sometimes, you just gather yourself

and you just kind of thing, did that

just really happen? It is not that

you are not affected by it, you are

affected by it.

You said thou not

strong enough to deal with the

situation. Are they weak because

they cannot deal with it and you are

stronger?

Just because I said I was

strong and I use that word, what I

meant was... Or robust, the chop.

When you are mature, you can cut the

different types of banter. There is

banter and there is deviant

behaviour.

Hold on, let him speak.

It is really dangerous to suggest

that personality has a real effect

on what the standards on reality

should be, so whether you aren't

mature, strong, robust enough

sometimes means that the woman who

comes forward, are they weak, they

cannot cope and they cannot do with

the situation they are somehow

immature?

No, they are absolutely

right to come back but they are the

ones that are reflected steeply by

it.

Absolutely ridiculous. You think

there is a difference between

touching somebody's legs and their

bottom? There is no difference, the

woman has a choice of being touched.

You don't know that choice, nobody

does. Sexual harassment is sexual

harassment.

Does it not happen quite

often at Christmas parties for

example?

It happens all the time,

but it does not make it right. A

good friend of mine, she teaches all

about boundaries and stuff and she

is an amazing woman.

What did he say

that upset you?

But there is no

line.

There is clearly a line. You

can touch somebody's Private parts

or the Elbow, there is a line

between those two.

How'd you know

that woman wants to be touched on

that elbow?

Are you suggesting we

live in a sterile society where all

touch is forbidden?

No, woman has a

choice.

If I touch him on his

shoulder, is he going to tell me to

go away?

Yes!

Can you read their

minds to say that he wanted you to

do that?

You know behaviourally what

is acceptable and what is not and

some people are wrong and they get

it wrong.

Is it ridiculous, when

people come up to you sometimes and

they kiss you on both cheeks, if a

man does that...

That is cool and

sophisticated.

I would not go up to somebody and

kiss them on the cheek because I

don't know if that person wants me

to do that. If that person wants you

to touch them, they will ask you to

touch them. Or you can ask them, you

don't just go and touch them.

We

only have a few minutes left, it is

the power dynamic in the workplace.

Bosses, people in power who can

decide whether you get a job or not

in the industry, people who decide

whether you get an acting job, in

television whether you can do a

television show, that power dynamic

is there and is it ever appropriate

for there to be a relationship

between a boss or even flirting with

somebody below them?

I would say

absolutely not. And the power

dynamic is between bosses and

employees and also between different

levels of staff. Somebody who has

just come in in their 20s and

somebody who is there longer. What

this young man said about the way

people are talking about people who

come forward as being in somewhere

improving their careers and for a

man it would end, that is bizarre.

Aside from that, there is a

narrative that says that the women

who stand up to that and he managed

to stop it strong.

Can we bring in

the audience? I think it is

fantastic that the people in

Hollywood are using the platform to

reassure regular people that it is

OK to come forward and you are not

weak and it is not a personality

flaw, that you have been victimised?

I am worried about this sort of

conversation about the right way for

a woman to respond to this because

there is not a wrong way for a woman

to respond. The simple fact is,

women should not be expected to

experience this kind of thing.

Why

are you not talking about men as

well, does this happen to men?

It

does happen to men as well but we

live in a Page Rocky and women are

usually the majority of the victims

-- Patriot key.

I wish these

actresses had come out a lot earlier

and gone to the right authorities a

lot sooner and there would not be so

many victims of the likes of Harvey

Weinstein.

There would be. The level

of people who get convicted for

these types of crime is next to

nothing. That is why there would be

many, many more.

Very quickly.

What

you said about a different line for

men... A microphone, very quickly.

Men of victims as much as women. I

was subjected to a very serious

sexual assault just over a year ago

and my perpetrator was never caught

and probably never will be, even

though they have DNA evidence.

Can I

just say I am sorry to stop you, but

we are running out of time and if

you want is to pick up that story,

we can do so on the radio show?

Sorry to stop you, we will not have

time. We will have tomorrow on the

radio show at nine a:m.. Thank you

for your company, good night,

everybody, thank you.

APPLAUSE