28/06/2016 Scotland 2016

Another day of drama as the ramifications of last week's

Leave vote continue to sink in here and in Brussels.

David Cameron meets EU leaders in Brussels -

they tell him if you're leaving, then get on with it.

Nicola Sturgeon goes there tomorrow to explore all Scotland's

Could there be a way forward with Gibraltar?

And it all gets a whole lot more awkward for Jeremy Corbyn

as he loses a vote of no confidence by his MPs.

The First Minister will meet European Parliament President Martin

Schulz tomorrow. She started exploring opportunities for a place

for Scotland in the EU. They were also claims Miss Sturgeon was trying

to steer the country towards a second independence referendum.

Extraordinary times often call for exploring measures. The Presiding

Officer said he was ready to recall Parliament from its summer holidays

if required. This was the first chance we have had to come together

since the monumental events of last week. The consequences of the

European referendum for Scotland are complex and will take some time to

fully emerge. I determine the parliament will play a full role in

the process. Then the First Minister rose to her feet to express

disappointment and concern at the vote for Britain to leave the EU

despite Scotland's majority view to remain and she said that while a

second independence referendum wasn't currently her number one

option, it was still on the table. Based on the very clear result in

Scotland, if we were to be removed from the year, it would be against

the will of our people. That would be democratically unacceptable. It

is for that reason I have said everything must be on the table to

protect our place in Europe including a second independence

referendum and to ensure that the option of holding a referendum

within the time frame of UK negotiations on leaving DEQ is

viable, we will prepare the legislation now. But the

Conservatives' Ruth Davidson said the First Minister had an ulterior

motive. Within hours of the vote becoming clear, the Scottish

Government had pushed questions of independence front and centre. I

cannot ignore the First Minister's announcement that she had already

instructed Government officials to start drawing up necessary

legislation for a second independence referendum. The Labour

leader turned hot anger back towards Ruth Davidson. Anger at a party that

forced this EU referendum on a country that did not want it only to

resolve an eagle contest in the Tory party -- ego. Willie Rennie was

equally scathing about the Conservatives. The economic chaos

means the Tories can never again claim to be the defenders of the

economy and after the surge in the support for independence at the

weekend, nor can the Tories claimed to be the defenders of the union.

Patrick Harvie from the Greens argued the result of the last

independence referendum had now been superseded and gave his backing to

another one. People who voted in 2014 did so on a false prospectus, a

false promise that their membership of the European Union would be

protected in those circumstances and it has not been. Despite today's

exchanges on independence, MSP is ultimately voted by a majority to

mandate the First Minister two, as they put it, protect Scotland's

relationship with the European Union. Nicola Sturgeon will travel

to Brussels tomorrow to begin the process of seeking a solution but if

none are found, Scotland may well have to get ready for another

referendum, this time on whether Scotland should leave the UK.

Model Frazier and Lewis McDonald and Richard Lochhead join me now.

Richard, the First Minister is off to Brussels tomorrow. It is clear

from the standing ovation there was some warmth for Scotland's position

there but realistically, what can she achieve? As Parliament gave a

mandate to the First Minister to do, she is going to speak up for

Scotland because after last week's monumental result, the situation was

Scotland voted to stay in Europe because it is important to our

country's future, the rest of UK deported to leave and we face an

anxious time ahead. It is encouraging to see the opposition

party rallying around to say that Scotland has two act and give a

mandate to the Scottish Government to find a route to maintain a

relationship with Europe because that is the democratic will of the

Scottish people. We have to look at all the options at this stage, which

was discussed in Parliament today, and we have been speaking to other

parts of the UK than 40 to stay in Europe like Gibraltar and Northern

Ireland -- voted to stay in Europe, and we want to continue that

dialogue and explore all options because the outcome that most

political parties want to see reflecting the will of the Scottish

people is to retain the relationship of Europe. It's the kind of country

we want to be. Lewis McDonald, you supported the First Minister in her

quest for a mandate to pursue talks. How far will you support call? What

we asked the First Minister to do as a parliament was to explore all the

options and to find out whether there was a route that would allow

Scotland to maintain his relationship with DEQ and their

place in the single market -- the EU. I think that is a clear

direction that she will take for and report back to Parliament. If she

comes back having explored all the options and says that nothing short

of independence will keep Scotland within the year, would you then

support a second independence referendum? Labour's position has

never been to support that but what we don't want is to explore what

options there might be and clearly we need to take into consideration

what the report back from her explanation is, but it would be a

mistake and the First Minister was very clear in her contribution in

the parliament that it would be a mistake to say this was a ruse to

set up an independence referendum. She was very clear that she was

genuinely seeking other possible ways forward and we encourage her to

do that. Murdo Frazier, do you accept it would be democratically

unacceptable for Scotland to be taken out of the EU against its

will? What the vote last Thursday was about was whether the United

Kingdom should remain part of the EU or not. The people of Scotland were

voting on that proposition, not a proposition about Scotland alone.

I've been diligent with e-mails from constituents who voted Remain in the

vote last Thursday who are outraged that Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP are

somehow taking that vote to remain as a mandate for a second

independence referendum because they are making the position very clear

that they are supporters of the United Kingdom. They voted for the

UK to domain in the EU. They are like me disappointed in the outcome

of that referendum but they don't believe that gives the SNP in

mandate to pursue a second independence referendum. These

negotiations ended up, we all agree on Ruth Davidson made this clear

today, we want to deal with the EU, we want to keep access to the single

market for British businesses and Scottish businesses if at all

possible but that needs to be agreed on a UK wide basis. So even if the

First Minister comes back with an assurance that Scotland could remain

in the EU if it was to vote for independence, you would stick with

the rest of the UK out of Europe? There is no mandate for another

independence referendum. We've just been through two very divisive and

better referendum campaigns, one last week on an ownership of the EU,

won two years ago on Scotland's place in the union. The last thing

the people of Scotland need is another bit of and divisive

referendum. At a time when we are seeing instability in the economy

and political and civility in the UK, we don't need to add to that

instability with yet another referendum. Richard Lochhead, there

is no mandate for a second independence referendum. Murdo seems

to be ignoring the result of the referendum in Scotland were

overwhelmingly people in this country voted to stay in Europe and

Murdo is a member of Scotland's national parliament because we had a

nation with our own national Parliament and people looking to a

national parliament to show leadership and we are certainly

getting no leadership from the UK parties in London, particularly the

Conservatives got us into this mess in the first place. The people of

Scotland want a national parliament and MSPs to get Scotland out of this

mess that the conservative Government put us into in the first

place. That's why we have a national parliament, to discuss questions and

represent the Scottish national interest and in any one's book, I

think a number of people agreed in Scotland, this is such a big issue,

it is a material change in circumstances and we have always

said it was to be another referendum in the future and it under the --

turned out to be the only option for staying, given the vote in Scotland.

Before we go, I would like to ask you about the Labour Party. Kezia

Dugdale says it is difficult for Jeremy Corbyn to continue as Labour

leader. You think it is time for him to resign? That difficulty is

obvious. I think you will sleep on it. It is a difficult position for

anyone to leave their party of their own immediate colleagues do not have

confidence on them -- in them. We have been talking about the position

with Brexit. One other possible outcome is a general election across

the UK. Clearly a Labour would want to be in a position to challenge the

Tories because it is the Tories who have created this mess, the Tories

are responsible for it. They need to be challenged. That, I think, is

presently Labour's job and I think Jeremy Corbyn and everybody else

will have to think seriously about how best we can do that.

It has emerged that Gibraltar has entered into talks with Scotland to

discuss staying part of the EU. The territory's Chief Minister says he

is speaking to Nicola Sturgeon about the potential options for both

countries. The territory backed Remain with the mass of 95% mandate.

He shot well ago I spoke to Alan trench who is an academic on

devolution. Is this wishful thinking or could

Scotland, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar negotiate together to stay

in the EU? Am afraid it is. The European Union is first and foremost

a union of member states and they are part of the European Union

because they are part of the states. I cannot think of a single case

where it would be possible to be part of something that is not a

member state but is somehow in the European Union. You can do things

the other way round. There are cases such as the Faroe Islands where they

are part of a member state but the European Union law does not in whole

or part apply there. The idea that you cannot dim but the member state

is not a member state is really, really strange. Do you think there

is another way that Scotland could remain in the EU without being a

full member state? One possibility is the sort of deal that is

currently being talked about, the Norway type deal to remain in the

European Economic Area but not to be part of the European Union. Scotland

would have most of the advantages of being part of European Union but

would not have any entitlement to participate in the seedings at the

Council of ministers, send members to the European Parliament and so

on. Otherwise, I cannot see any way at all. Either Scotland is a part of

the UK in which it may not be part of the European Union, or it can, by

becoming independent, remain part of the EU, but severing links with

other parts of the United Kingdom. This situation is unprecedented. We

saw earlier today a standing ovation for the SNP in Brussels. Might there

be a willingness to take in new approach given the circumstances? I

am doubtful about that. In any case, that is a case of innovative

constitutional thinking that I don't think the EU is capable of, zero I

think there is much willingness to go down that route, and given all

that is going on at the moment. The EU has many other urgent matters to

deal with as well. This is a huge convocation, for the union and

leaders to deal with at this time. Do you think all roads lead back to

a second independence referendum? I think so. There might be an option

for Gibraltar. The Chief Minister may not thank U for pointing it out.

That is co-sovereignty through Spain and being part of Spain rather than

the UK. We heard that an independent Scotland could stay in the EU

without having to go to the back of the queue for other countries

looking to join, how do you think that will go down with countries

like Spain? That is an interesting position. Spain may feel very uneasy

about that, particularly if Mariano Rajoy remains the Prime Minister and

is determined to do all he can to prevent Catalan become independent.

Scotland has several advantages, as it always has, including at the time

of the referendum in 2014, it satisfies something already because

the UK is in the state and it is in compliance with European law, in the

aspects of how Scotland works. It would be in a very ready position to

negotiate, the question is whether it has to make a formal application

or count as a member state which is leaving. As you say, these are

unprecedented circumstances, no one quite knows what the procedures are,

and how all remember states and the complexities of politics will work.

Briefly, what about the UK's position now? Boris Johnson says

there will continue to be free trade and access to the single market, how

likely is that in your view? We will see. I suspect it is much more

difficult than Boris Johnson wants to give the impression that it is.

If that is the goal, I think he might have run the Leave campaign

differently. A lot of hard work about the nature of the EU and those

roads will not be forgotten by other member states. Alan Trench, thank

you. David Cameron has given a press

conference in Brussels. He said Britain would not turn its back on

Europe and he hoped the closest possible relationship could be

negotiated outside the EU. Meanwhile, in the EU parliament

earlier today, Ukip leader and Leave campaigner Nigel Farage was booed

and the SNP MSP made an impassioned plea on behalf of Scotland.

Coming together to work out how best to part. As David Cameron arrived in

Brussels for Brexit talks with European leaders, the European

Parliament was debating the UK's decision to withdraw, with one

Scottish representative highlighting the remain vote in Scotland and

appealing to any use to help to maintain Scotland's EU links. There

are a lot of things to be negotiated. We need cool heads and

warm hearts, but please remember this, Scotland did not let you down.

Please, I beg you, do not let Scotland down now! And outside the

chamber, this former Belgian Prime Minister who is meeting Nicola

Sturgeon tomorrow, backed continuing EU membership for Scotland, if it

votes for independence. If they decide to be independent, they

decide to be independent. If you want them to stay in the European

Union, they can stay in the European Union, it is their decision. Stay in

without having to join a queue to get in? Yes, they are in for the

moment said it is no problem on that side. But this analyst who is now

advising the Scottish Government on Brexit thinks some EU member states

would be nervous about Scottish independence.

It is especially a country like Spain with a secessionist movement

with Catalonia and the Basque country and also other countries

around Europe where you have regions which at least have a tendency

towards secession, for example Belgian. The First Minister has made

clear she is prepared to explore all options to protect Scotland's

relationship with the European Union, including independence. She

is seeking direct talks with the governments and institutions of the

EU, and they will begin here in Brussels tomorrow, when Nicola

Sturgeon comes to the parliament to meet its president Martin Schultz,

among others. Glen Campbell there.

Tara Palmeri is a reporter for Politico Europe and she joins me

What did he have to say? He said he had a lot of regret at this final

European Council, which I think is code for he basically had to say he

was sorry to all of these Prime Ministers four first of all putting

them through an extremely torturous night, months of having to walk on

eggshells and to finally come back with a vote of no-confidence in the

EU, I guess you would say. It was kind of a sombre moment. At the end,

he answered the question saying that. The reason the UK people voted

to leave the EU is because of migration from Europe. So, he did

cave his thoughts, his feeling of why they voted to leave. I

understand from some reports, he was actually calling for reforms on

freedom of movement in Europe. I wonder how will that go down that?

It is kind of hard to ask for change after you have already left, right?

So we will see how that goes down. The truth is, your scepticism is

growing all over the EU, and if they want to contain this contagion of

anti-EU feelings, they need to take these concerns into account. We have

heard a lot of tough talking today in Brussels, perhaps more

specifically from the German Chancellor, our attitudes likely to

soften over the coming weeks and months? I think they are going to

soften. I think a lot of people were very emotional from the results,

especially those who are red realists and believe in the European

project, and see it almost as the United States of Europe. Those

people were especially crushed. It was like losing a state. So, that

group, yes, they may have used that emotion of sadness and diverted it

into a vengeful feelings to defuse any sort of contagion of your

scepticism moving around Europe. What we have right now is a really

fragile political situation in France. One of the core founders of

the EU, where the National Front is polling at 28% higher than the

current sitting president, Francois Hollande. They are also asking for

an EU referendum on membership. This is obviously going to be an issue

throughout Europe. They are calling for a referendum in the Netherlands

and the Czech Republic. I am sure this will be the topic of

conversation for months and years to come, unless there is serious talk

about how to change the EU. Scotland's First Minister arrives

tomorrow. We saw a standing ovation for an SNP MEP today in the chamber,

do you get a sense there is widespread support for trying to

find a way to keep Scotland within the EU, even if the rest of the UK

leaves? I am not sure that that is a priority right now. I do think they

are genuinely thinking about how to defuse the political uncertainty

right now in the UK. Scotland throws in a whole new factor and frankly,

even more uncertainty. I'm sure that obviously, the idea that Scotland

has solidarity with the EU helps their cause, shows that the European

project is important and useful and they want to be a part of it and

they don't want to leave, but at the same time, I think right now the

focus is on triggering article 50, trying to quell the uncertainty

throughout Europe, and I guess perhaps looking to Scotland. I think

it would be... I am afraid there we will have to leave it. Thank you

very much in Brussels. Labour MPs have backed a motion

of no confidence in their party leader Jeremy Corbyn by 172

votes to 40. It's thought a challenge

to his leadership could emerge Meanwhile, the Conservatives have

announced that their leadership contest has been put back

until September 9th. To tell us more about all of this

here's our Westminster correspondent Hello, Nick, it is all happening

down there. As the days go by, as days go, it could not be much worse

for Jeremy Corbyn, could it? No, I did think there is any doubt now

that there is a war for the heart and the future of the Labour Party

taking place at Westminster. Jeremy Corbyn is standing firm tonight.

There is no sign that he's going anywhere, despite the fact that 80%

of the Parliamentary Labour Party said earlier today, they no longer

have any confidence in him. One of the voices questioning just how he

could continue, how he could stay on in the job with so little support in

parliament was Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale. Here is what

she told BBC Scotland earlier. I am leading the Scottish Labour Party.

We went through a similar process and had a similar mandate. I have

72% of the party in Scotland behind me. If I had lost 80% of my

parliamentary colleagues I simply could not do my job and I think it

will be very difficult for Jeremy Corbyn to continue. Mr Corbyn points

that he still thinks he has substantial support within the

membership of the Labour Party. He says that he will not betray those

who elected him by standing down. But a sign of just how difficult it

could be for him to remain in the role comes in the Scottish context.

In the question over who will replace Iain Murray as the shadow

Scottish Secretary. I have been told none of the peers would prepare to

take the job while Jeremy Corbyn is still the leader. He has won

Scottish MP. There are a number of roles where Jeremy Corbyn cannot

find people to fill Shadow Cabinet positions at the moment. The SNP are

saying that is not good enough. They won that role filled as soon as

possible. I fully expect there will be a leadership contest now. Labour

MPs are taking soundings tonight about who might want to stand

against Jeremy Corbyn, who might be the best person to defeat him. The

two names which keep coming up today are Tom Watson, the deputy leader of

the Labour Party, and Angela Eagle, who until yesterday was the shadow

Business Minister. Of course, the leadership election all eyes are on

at the moment is for the Conservative Party. Where is the

smart money going? Tomorrow, the nominations open. I think we will.

To see some of the focus shifts from Labour to the Conservatives. The

next Conservative leader, the person who will be the Prime Minister.

Boris Johnson is the favourite. He is the person everyone Westminster

expects to stand with the backing of Michael Gove. But there is some

momentum building I think for a stop Boris candidate. The person who has

been mentioned has been Theresa May. She supported remaining in the EU,

but she was not particularly vocal about that so she might be somebody

who Conservative MPs on the Brexit side are bit more happy about. Some

other sides in the frame tonight, Liam Fox, the former Defence

Secretary, a Scot of course. We expect him to put his name forward

tomorrow. Also Stephen Crabb, the Internet is born minister is

expected to stand with Sajid Javid as his number two -- the Inverness

born minister. We will get more details tomorrow. Thank you, Nick.

That is it for tonight. Thanks for watching. I will be back tomorrow

night at the usual time. Join me then if you can. Until then,

goodbye. And did I mention

he wrote some books, too?