29/06/2016 Scotland 2016

The First Minister says a second independence referendum remains

"highly likely" after her charm offensive in Brussels.

The First Minister brushes off Spanish opposition to her attempts

We have an extended interview from Brussels.

Angela Eagle looks set to challenge Jeremy Corbyn

And in wake of the Brexit vote, the Irish President urges

Scotland and Ireland to continue its cooperation.

There were plenty of warm words for Nicola Sturgeon in Brussels

today as she shuttled between a series of high-level meetings.

From the President of the EU Parliament to

President of the European Commission,

the First Minister got a sympathetic hearing as she set about exploring

short of independence - that Scotland could

But it was those she didn't meet who could provide a stumbling block.

Both the French president and Spanish Prime Minister said

they're opposed to the EU negotiating potential

Our political correspondent Glen Campbell spoke

First Minister, does Leave mean leave for all of the UK? And no, I

don't think it necessarily does, and that is my starting point here, to

question whether that has to be the case. Scotland boss alarming rate to

remain in the European Union and I think the will of the Scottish

people should be respected. -- Scotland voted overwhelmingly to

remain. I think I have got a duty to try to honour what the people of

Scotland voted for and do everything that I can and explore every option

to protect Scotland's place in the EU. What you say to the Spanish by

Minister Mariano Rajoy who says if the UK leaves, Scotland leaves? I

don't think it is surprising to hear the acting Spanish Prime Minister

say that. That is the view that Spain has expressed previously about

Scotland's position. But the second thing I would say is that we are now

in uncharted territory, and the situation now compared to the

situation in 2014 is different, it is a unique situation. You would

need the agreement of Spain and other EU countries. Of course, we

are in the very early stages and it is our uncharted territory. It is

not clear what's been's political leadership will be in the period

ahead. -- what Spain's political leadership will be. We are not yet a

week on from the referendum. In this early stage my priority is to make

sure there is an understanding across Europe that Scotland voted

differently to the yes of the UK and that there is an aspiration in

Scotland to protect our relationship with the European Union. -- to the

rest of the UK. Isn't there an effective veto over ambition is to

stay inside? What I am here today doing is just putting Scotland's

case and making Scotland's voice heard. Much of the discussion we

will have to have to try and chart a different course for Scotland will

be discussion in the context of the UK EU negotiations, and I want to

make sure Scotland's interest are properly represented there. I am not

pretending at this stage I have all the answers to the questions that

will arise from the situation I did not create or ask to be in. I have

got an absolute duty given how the people of Scotland voted last week

to try and find a way of protecting Scotland's vision in the EU, and

that is what I am determined to do. -- Scotland's position in the EU.

Gordon Brown is suggesting that the next best thing would be for the UK

to negotiate membership of the European economic area, like Norway

and Iceland. Do you agree? I think the best thing is to stay in the

European Union. The thing about the Norway solution is that it is

accessed to the single market, accepts free movement of people, and

means that we would have to continue to pay a contribution. In other

words, what you get with the Norway solution is all of the obligations

of EU membership, benefits of the single market, but you did not have

a seat around the table to influence the rules of the single market. I

don't think that is a good situation. Is it the next best thing

for either the UK or Scotland? I am focusing on the best thing for

Scotland, and the best thing that the people of Scotland actually

voted for. People are now asking what the best alternative is in the

UK, but that is not the situation in Scotland, we voted to stay in the

EU. I have to find the best option for what the people in Scotland

voted for. Some people talk about the possibility of the treaty is

continuing to apply to parts of the UK like Scotland whilst England and

Wales withdrawal. Is that a serious option or not? A few days on from

the referendum before the article 50 process is even triggered, we should

not rule any options out. We should look at all options and assess pros

and cons of them, and that is the approach I have very definitely said

I want to take. As we proceed further down this road, no doubt

some options that people say no should be looked at will prove not

be possible, credible or perhaps desirable. Our options makes narrow.

But at the moment I have got an open mind and I am keen to at every

potential option, and I am trying to encourage people here to keep their

minds open as well. What do you think the chances of a second

independence referendum are no, not least in light of the Spanish

Government's comments? I say to you when you asked me that same question

that the likelihood of a second referendum is highly likely over the

next period, given what happened with the EU referendum last week. I

have also said that I am not coming at this from a starting point of

independence. You know I support independence. Mice -- my starting

point here is how do we protect what Scotland voted for. If we joined we

would have to agree to join the euro. I want us to examine all

options for retaining our current membership of the European Union.

Haven't one of the 27 countries said today that that cannot happen? As I

said, I am not here today asking for commitments from other European

countries. I'm here today at the start a process which is about

examining all options for Scotland. I have said this before and we'll

say it again, because it is worth repeating. We are less than a week

after the referendum that I did not ask for will stop I did not want to

see this icon, this is not a situation I wanted Scotland to be

in. It is not up perfect situation, four from. My job now is to navigate

up after it that get the best possible outcome for Scotland. There

will be hurdles, difficulties and challenges. There is no easy path

ahead. But my job is to try to find the best path that leads to the best

outcome for Scotland, and that is what I am focused on doing. Have you

reached any agreement with resident Martin Schulz? Do you hope to get

confirmation from President Younger? I have not been here today asking

for commitments, but making Scotland's voice heard and making

sure there is an understanding across Europe of Scotland's position

here. I have had a very warm and sympathetic welcome, and I have been

very pleased with the discussion I have had. What about the people in

Scotland who didn't vote to leave? Do you speak for them on this issue?

Ukip say that you do not. I certainly want to speak to people

who wanted to leave, because I recognise that there are people who

voted to leave the did so out of a range of different concerns. Some of

the about the European Union, some will be other concerns that they

were expressing there. But the express that view as a legitimate

view, and it is one I have to listen to. As I said in my statement to

Parliament, there is an obligation on all of us to understand and

respond to those concerns. But equally, in a democracy, people in

Scotland overwhelmingly voted to stay in the European Union, and that

is the view that I have to reflect. There is a political crisis in

Westminster at the moment. Do you take the Leader of the Opposition

should go? -- do you think? I think it is hard to see how he gives the

position while so many of his MPs do not support. Given that he has so

much backing from the grassroots, it is hard to see how we can be in a

position where the parliamentary party and the activist base of the

party or so at odds. I'm sure there are a lot of people in the Labour

Party who voted for Jeremy Corbyn who feel uneasy and perhaps angry to

see him overthrown and toppled by MPs against their wishes. So it is

difficult to see how a leader can stay on in the circumstances, but I

think it all adds up to a lot of unhappiness. To me, seemingly

irreconcilable differences within the Labour Party. Thank you very

much. The First Minister speaking to Glen

Campbell in Brussels earlier today. Angela Eagle looks set

to challenge Jeremy Corbyn The BBC understands the former

Shadow Business Secretary has the support of the 51 MPs needed

to mount a challenge. Earlier today the Prime Minister

called on Mr Corbyn to resign at his first PMQs since

the EU referendum. David Cameron also gave a statement

on his meeting with other European In a moment we'll go live

to Westminster for the latest David Cameron's opponents have often

docked in Flash man because of his acting performances in the House of

Commons. But the man who came to the dispatch box today to answer

questions for the first time since the EU referendum seemed a more

subdued. We are in a strong position to meet these challenges because we

have paid down so much of our deficit, had strong growth and job

creation. But I do not belittle at all that consequences will be

difficult. There are a going to be some choppy waters ahead. What it

did not take long for the leaders to revert to more familiar territory,

with the Labour leader's problems mind for dramatic effect. The Prime

Minister has two months lead. Will you leave one nation legacy, and

while that one nation legacy be the scrapping of the bedroom tax, the

banning of zero hours contracts, and cancelling of the cuts to universal

credit? I have to say, he talks about job insecurity, and my two

months to go. It might be in my party's interest for him to sit

there. It is not in the national interest, and I would say, for

heaven 's sake, man, go. Then it was onto the outcome of Tuesday's

European Council. From which the Prime Minister left early, as the

SNP highlighted. While the Prime Minister is not in Brussels, Nicola

Sturgeon is in Brussels. She has gone to support Scotland's interest.

He wanted to know if the premise had mentioned Scotland to other EU

leaders. -- if the Prime Minister had mentioned. At the end of the

day, the best way we can secure the best possible access for Scotland

into the single market is for the United Kingdom to negotiate as hard

as it can as one. Elsewhere in Westminster, the contenders to be

the next Tory leader have begun to show their hand. Boris Johnson of

course seems almost certain. But today the Work and Pensions

Secretary Stephen Crabb and the Business Secretary Sajid Javid said

they would challenge the blonde bombshell to be PM and hands were

respectively. I love my country, I love my party, and I genuinely

believe that what I stand for, the values I represent, the strengths

that I bring, are exactly those that are required to get us through the

challenges ahead. Stephen Crabb is first off the starting blocks. By

this time tomorrow we will know who else is in the race.

With me now from our London studio is our political

It is all happening there. We will talk about labour in a moment, but

on that Conservative leadership at all, who else can we expect to throw

their hat in the ring? The nominations are open as you heard in

the report, and close at noon tomorrow. Then we will find out the

full list. Stephen Crabb will be one of the candidates. Liam Fox

confirmed he was putting his hat in the ring as well. In the last few

minutes we have had it confirmed that Theresa May, the Home

Secretary, is going for the job. And also mentioned in the report there,

Boris Johnson, somebody who number of people have tipped for a number

of months now to take over from David Cameron. He will be launching

his campaign tomorrow well. Because there are more than two candidates,

the process becomes slightly cobbled idiot. So MPs -- slightly

complicated. MPs will vote for who they want on a final short list of

two, which will then go to the Conservative membership. The

membership will choose who is the next women are a man to lead the

party, and indeed the country as Prime Minister. -- the next women or

man. We have seen some quite vicious blue on blue attacks, so I think

tomorrow we will start to hear a lot more about how the potential leaders

want to start to heal the wins of the referendum campaign and build

bridges within the party again. And what about the Labour

leadership? Is it clear that Angela Eagle will challenge for the

leadership? She now fully intends to take Jeremy Corbyn on in a

leadership election. This is a leadership election that could

really be for the heart and soul of the future of the party. Today has

been another extremely bruising day for Jeremy Corbyn and for the Labour

Party. We have two former Labour leaders, Ed Miliband and Gorden

Brown, who are saying they think his position is untenable. I have a

letter here, including people from the Scottish Parliament and a number

of local authorities who say he has to go. Not just for the good of the

party, but also the good of the country that we need a stronger

opposition in the House of Commons, holding the government to account.

Tonight, Tom Watson has gone as far to warn that they face an

existential crisis. Here is what he had to say earlier.

I agree with Kezia Dugdale, who yesterday said if she had lost a

motion of no confidence, she wouldn't be able to do her job. And

I think that is true for Jeremy. It is a great tragedy, he does have a

member's mandate, but those who joined know you need a Parliamentary

mandate. You have to have the authority of members and

members of Parliament. Mr Corbyn remains defiant snide. He thinks he

has support of enough of the member ship. Councils across the UK are

saying he could continue. Tonight he was at a rally in central London.

Supporters from the leadership election were there last year. --

from last year were there. I was honoured to be the Labour Party last

year. I've done my best over this year to develop the policy changes

we want and reach out to people in the way we want. And to recognise

that there are many in the party you may not completely agree with the

direction I want to take it. But I also recognise that the mandate was

given by hundreds of thousands of ordinary people. So that continues

tonight. And a sign of just how deep the divisions in the Labour Party

are... There was open talk at Westminster about the party

splitting. Between those who support Mr Corbyn and those who criticised

him. Thank you very much. Now, after the heat and many

would say, unpleasantness, of the EU referendum debate,

the Irish President Michael Higgins was at Holyrood today,

putting the case for a He talked to MSPs of

the "thinly veiled hate and racism", which he saw

emerging and highlighted the importance of immigration both

to his country and to Scotland. President Higgins also urged

continued cooperation Peter Geoghan is covering

the President's visit to Scotland I spoke to him just

before we came on air. The Irish government argued very

strongly for Britain to remain in the EU. So how much concern is that

now there is a vote to leave? I think there is a huge amount. There

is worry and they looked at the polls to stay few weeks ago in a

council meeting and they were vexed and angry and worry about there

being a leave boat. They were concerned. 70% of our trade is with

the UK. So there is a huge concern. The board implications for Northern

Ireland. But also in the broader framework of the Irish economic

unit. The UK and Ireland have always been seen. So this is the biggest

rupture in relations since 1921. So how much concern is therefore

Scotland's position in all of this? Are they more concerned about the UK

as a whole evening? I think there is both. People in Ireland recognise

the Scotland vote to stay. That has been loud and clear. It has been

reported and Irish politicians have been speaking about it. If Scotland

was to become independent, some say they would like to see at a fast

tracked into the European Union. Enda Kenny was also speaking to

Nicola Sturgeon. There is a huge awareness of the role of Scotland

and the place of within it. And there is a change with the

referendum. At that time, the Irish government were neutral. They didn't

want to say anything that could be misconstrued. I do think they feel

badly let down by the government in Westminster. I think they were given

assurances that this wasn't going to happen. This damaging thing to

island 's economy and a place in Europe wasn't going to happen. --

the economy of Ireland. Being let down and almost resentment in

Ireland that this has happened. We have seen in Brussels there has been

anger towards the UK and warm words towards Scotland. Do you think that

will endure? Or do you think Ireland will realise that trade is the most

important thing? Within the wider scheme of European Union relations,

Scotland and the UK have been proxies for internal battles. But I

think with Ireland it is more enduring. I think there is a sense

that there is a shared interest and I think the most important and

properly Common travel area. The border is the biggest issue. It is

going to be the only land border that the UK has with the European

Union. Similarly for Scotland. If we are going to move towards a phase

where Scotland might have a place within the European Union and the UK

and independence, they are going to need a common tower area. That will

be similar with Ireland. And I do think for both government there is a

lot of opportunities to work together. -- a Common travel area.

There has been a big increase in the way they work and I think we will

see more about in the coming years. I guess we have seen some striking

parallels between the Minister's position and Martin McGuinness. He

was a very quick last Friday. When she was making her speech about the

referendum being likely, he was talking about calling for border

polls. It has to be seen as an expectation of winning. The poll

showed support was between 20 and 25%. It is highly unlikely to

happen. Thank you very much for coming in. Thank you for having me.

Here to talk about all that's been happening in Brussels

and Westminster, former editor of The Scotsman, Magnus Linklater.

Also, the broadcaster and Green Party member Louise Batchelor.

As we have seen Nicola Sturgeon was in Brussels today. She appeared

pretty relaxed about Spain's intervention to her attempts to

explore all the options for keeping Scotland in the EU. What did you

think, Magnus, of her first day? Well, it was a charm offensive. I

thought it was an effective charm offensive. Everybody seemed to be

very nice to her. And she was, as she has said, making Scotland's

case, which is probably what she has to do at this stage. Longer term,

there were signs that that there are going to be difficulties ahead.

Spain will object, as it always has to the notion of giving Scotland any

sort of fast track. What appears to be hostile. But these are very early

days and we simply do not know how the thing is going to pan out. Do

you think that might simply be tough talk at this stage? They might

soften up on this? I doubt if Spain world. I cannot see why Spain would

suddenly sort of decided to give Scotland the go-ahead. So that is

something she asked to accept that is going to be a problem. But there

are so many other things that are in the air, not least Britain's own

negotiations and how that pans out. But I think you cannot possibly

predict how it's going to turn out. So many questions and very few

answers at this stage, Louise. In exploring all the options, everybody

seems to be agreed that that's the right thing to do. Have you seen any

other option at the moment? Other than a second independence

referendum, that might keep Scotland within the EU? I think the one that

Nicola Sturgeon is exploring herself, which is that we don't have

to leave, we just continue as a member, if that is in any way

possible. But how? It does not seem to be impossible. We simply carry on

being good Europeans. We see that we are going to abide by the European

directives and by the current trade agreements that we follow. So we

keep our side of the bargain and they keep theirs. If that isn't

possible, if, in the end, Spain has its way. Spain is only one voice.

And I think France... Fat isn't such a louder voice. President blonde is

having to pander to his home electorate. -- Francois Hollande. --

France isn't such a loud voice. He has to take a hard line against the

UK's Brexit. But he is not for ever either and things will change there.

So I do not think it is absolutely inevitable that we have is to go for

independence again. But I think it is, as she says, highly likely. I

think it is the right way. It is the cleanest thing we can do. You are

looking sceptical that, Magnus. Yes. I am about carrying on as good

Europeans and then morphing into Europe as it were. I do not think

that will happen. I think... We could be like the Irish. I doubt it.

I think what has got to happen is that sooner or later, she has do

take a deep breath and say we have got to have an independence

referendum, because it is clear that our only route into Europe is as an

independent nation. That means quite a delay, quite a period during which

we watch how Britain has negotiated and then come along and put our

case. And that would be a very tricky proposition to be putting

that question to the Scottish people at the same time as all of these

negotiations. Yes, because you wouldn't know what they were being

offered. They would be asked to vote on independence without knowing what

the position in Europe would exactly be. This is where I beg to differ.

Because I think the body language we have seen today in Brussels tells a

new story. I think we have a game changer here. The kind of photo

opportunity she got with Jean-Claude Juncker. That will be worth gold to

Nicola Sturgeon. The warm reception she got, in stark contrast to the

television pictures from the sceptical headlines we saw. The

snubs and cold shoulders. This is an immense contrast to the world Alex

Salmond never got, when he was trying to argue we could be

independent within Europe. I think the doors are opening and we could

be fast tracked and I think, I think, and would like to see this,

that Europe could say these are the kind of terms and kind of conditions

we could offer. There's another proposition that I would like to

put, however, and that is about Britain's negotiations or rather the

rest of the UK's negotiations. Against all expectations, say they

go quite well and Britain manages to negotiate a Norwegian style

relationship with Europe, they maintain membership of the single

market. And that looks quite a settled state. Would Scots be so

keen on independence then, rather than having let's say a Boris

Johnson led government, it might be a Stephen Crabb led government, who

is Scottish born by the way, working class etc. And then suddenly England

and Wales don't seem such a hostile territory after all. I think you are

being perhaps over optimistic. All the language... I am saying it is a

possibility. The Norwegian style agreement would require freedom of

movement. The message south of the border that has come loud and clear

is that they do not want that. We are almost out of time. I do not

want to go without talking about the Labour Party's trouble. We hear

Angela Eagle is throwing her hat in the ring and challenging Jeremy

Corbyn. Do you think this is the beginning of a split in the Labour

Party? I think everyone is saying that. There seems to be a split,

because if it goes into a leadership election, there are those who think

he should remain. I do not think how they can avoid a deep split. I think

it is on the leaderboard. If they keep changing leader and nothing

gets better, at the very moment when they could be united against the

Tories who are going to face a very damaging leadership election, when

they should be standing up for the country, they have -- are falling

apart. -- unleadable. I'm back again tomorrow

night, usual time. 'will take you on the most

ambitious train series ever. 'On board will be

the nation's leading experts 'and presenters,

Peter Snow and Hannah Fry.