Victoria Derbyshire Debate Scotland Decides

It is 10am. Good morning. I'm Victoria Derbyshire. Today with just

over two weeks to go before the referendum on the future of

Scotland, we are live in Dundee. APPLAUSE

My name is Steve Burns and I will be voting no. The SNP want a divorce,

but they want to continue to use the joint credit card. It is

unreasonable. I'm Neil. I'm unemployed, I will be voting yes

because I want a better future for my children. I'm Sarah and I'm

undecided. This is the hardest decision Scotland had to make and

neither side won my vote yet. First, let's bring you the latest

news. Thank you. First, let's bring you the latest

news. Thank Good morning. I'm Simon McCoy. Too risky and too expensive,

the option of building an airport on so-called Boris Island has been

officially reject. Boris Johnson described it as a temporary setback.

The chair of the airports commission says a network of airports would be

a better option for London rather than one large airport.

Our view is that one huge airport way out east is not the right answer

for London. We think a network of competing airports is likely to

produce a better solution for the passengers of London. But also, of

course, one has to note that it is a long way away from other centres of

population. This is all really a gigantic smoke screen for a U-turn

on Heathrow. The great merit of estuary scheme is it is

environmentally sensitive and solves our problem in the long-term. What

we're careering towards is a third runway at Heathrow followed by a

fourth Runway. South Yorkshire Police has announced an

investigation into the child sexual exploitation in Rotherham. A report

last week suggested that children had suffered abuse over a 16 year

period. Labour announced it is suspending three councillors. Labour

are suspending four members in Rotherham, three of whom are sitting

councillors. One is a former councillor. Now, they go on to say

that further action is possible. The Chief Constable and the

Director-General of the BBC will before MPs today to answer questions

about the police reporting of the search of Sir Cliff Richard's home.

They will face members of the Home Affairs Select Committee this

afternoon. Prosecutors are reviewing the case

against a British couple who removed their ill son from a hospital in

Southampton. The Kings' whose son has a brain tumour spent the night

in a Spanish hospital. Mr and Mrs King said they took their son abroad

because they wanted him to have a treatment not available on the NHS.

Nick Clegg said he would like to see the family reunited. This is a

family in a state of real anguish who have taken this step of moving

their sick child to another country because they think that's what is

best for their child. Now, we can debate whether it is or it is not,

but that seems to be their motives. Those are not motives I can argue

with. I don't think any parent can argue with. That's why I think

throwing the full force of the law at Mr and Mrs King who appear to be

doing what they believe to be best for their own family, I don't think

is an appropriate thing to do. A senior Russian security official

says Moscow is reviewing its military strategy because of NATO's

response to the Ukraine conflict. The deputy head of the Kremlin

advisory Security Council told Russia's news agencies that NATO was

ratcheting up tensions by boosting its military presence on Europe's

eastern flank. Back to Victoria with the Scotland

Debate. Good morning. It is just over two

weeks to go until people here in Scotland decide if they want to live

in an independent country or stay as part of the United Kingdom. And

today, we're here with an audience of 300 voters, you have heard them

already. Let's hear them again. We're live in Dundee. I'm Victoria

Derbyshire and today, we're broadcasting on Five Live, the BBC

News Channel and BBC Two. Our programme is coming from the Caird

Hall where according to their website, The Beatles, Frank Sinatra

and the Clash have performed. Yes, The Clash have been on this stage

and sung Should I Stay Or Should I Go. September 18th is going to be a

huge moment in this country as you know. The arguments on currency,

nuclear weapons and the impact on the rest of the UK have been raging

and let's be clear, change is coming. However, Scotland votes. The

purpose of today is to ask as the campaign reaches its climax, how are

people living in Scotland going to vote and why? And for those who at

this late, late stage still claim to be undecided, what is it that is

going to move them one way or the other in the intense final days? The

300 people in this room are evenly split between the yeses and the Noes

and we have some undecideds too. They have been asked a series of

questions to find out more about their potential voting intentions so

we have done our best to make sure there is a balanced audience here

this morning. And wherever you are in the UK, you can join us too via

social media. So a simple question to begin with. Tell us how you're

going to vote and why. Good morning. Good morning. My name is Anna and

I'm from Perth. I've never done anything like this before. Why are

you doing it now then? Because this summer I went to Denmark, a country

with my research, I'm a cancer researcher and I looked at this

population, four million, fantastic healthcare system. Brilliant

education. Excellent quality of life. Higher taxes, but much better

salaries and I thought, wait a minute, can Scotland not do this? I

went home. I've drilled into the research and do you know what? Yes,

we can be an independent prosperous small country. So that's why I'm

voting yes. APPLAUSE

Good morning. Hello. I'm Dougie and I work in Tesco's and I'm voting no

because I don't believe that I have the right because I'm of an age, I'm

58 now and I don't think I should be gambling with the future of my

cousins and my nephews and the rest of my family. Why do you describe it

as gambling? There is no certainty. There is no certainty whatsoever.

OK. Everything is guesswork, hope, we think, maybe, maybe not. OK.

We'll drill down into a little bit of that later.

APPLAUSE Hello. Hi, good morning. Hi. I'm Ellie and

I'm from Dundee. I'm undecided, but I'm leaning more towards the yes

side. I'm undecided because I feel like when I watch these debates on

TV and on the radio, it is more arguing and sniping at each other

rather than giving the people the facts that they want to hear that

will help them make a decision. But I am leaning more towards yes

because I feel like the powers that we don't currently have, we could

take them on and be a small, but great country on our own. You're

nearly in that yes section, aren't you? You're nearly there, but let me

ask you. Are you expecting more facts in the next 16 days? Yeah, I

think so. Who from? The media will be showing more coverage as we're

getting closer every day now. Hi. Hi. I am a student at Dundee. I just

want to stay to the undecided voters. You heard the facts. You

have seen both sides, what they're putting down, the cards they're

putting on the table. You know what they're both going to say and I

think especially as we come close to the referendum, you've #2k3w09 to

think with -- got to think with your heart and use your natural instincts

and Scotland is a great country and we have the potential to be an even

greater country. So I think especially this close you have to go

with your natural instincts. OK. Hello. Good morning. Are you going

with your natural instincts? Are you going with your heart? No, I am not.

Good morning, everybody. I'm Dotty Kennedy. I am a No voter. I would

like to say to the undecideds. With independence there is an enormous

financial black hole which I'm worried about how we're going to

fill and from what I've heard so far, it has been filled by a wing

and a prayer perhaps by oil. Perhaps by immigration, but these are all

things that we are not certain about. I would ask you to think

carefully about that. Dotty UK Plc has a black hole as well. The UK has

a deficit, doesn't it? It does. The UK is living beyond its means? But

we have lived with a union that worked extremely well and I do not

want to go with something that I'm just going with my heart. I'm very

Scottish. Very patriotic, but I would rather stay with the UK.

APPLAUSE I'm Verity and I'm undecided. How

undecided are you? I'm heading towards yes. I'm 80% towards yes

partly because of a lot of the negativity and both sides have given

negativity, it is not just one, but the gentleman here says he was

gambling with the children's future and it was uncertainty. The Better

Together Campaign have not said what we will have and what we will get if

we stay in the Union. The Yes Campaign have put out a white paper,

not everyone agrees with it and Campaign have put out a white paper,

not everyone agrees with it like the lady said if I was to vote with my

heart, it would have been yes long ago, but I want hard facts.

heart, it would have been yes long to know why I'm better in the Union?

Why I shouldn't vote yes without anyone attacking the yes side

because it has been a constant barrage of negativity. We won't have

this or we won't have that. Tell me what I can have. Right, well, why

don't we do that right now? Who would like to talk to Verity from

this side. Don't all jump at once. Jenny. I'm Jenny Marra. What I would

say to Verity is I think all the social progress we have achieved in

this country has been done hand-in-hand with our friends, our

family in England and Wales. If you think about how we set-up the

national Health Service, how we fought fascism together and

instigated the minimum wage, better conditions for workers. All these

things were done by joining hands with our friends and family across

the United Kingdom and across the European Union to make conditions

better. Yes, I think Dundee needs to be better. I think more jobs need to

come to this city. I think our public services need to be better,

but I think we do this within the stronger economy of the United

Kingdom because the speaker behind me was right, there is going to be a

big financial black hole if we go independent. OK.

APPLAUSE Hello. Good morning. I'm from the

Dundee Pensioners Forum. I'm undecided. I'm 74. I'm going out the

door. I have not heard that - the NHS is terrible just now in

Scotland. I'm just out of hospital. Don't make it out to be it is a

great NHS, it is not. It is terrible. There is not enough staff

at weekends. Everybody knows that. You can't get a porter. I can only

say please think before you vote. OK, well you said you are undecided.

On that scale of one to ten, one you haven't got a clue. Ten, you're

almost there? I'm almost there, yes. Which way? To the no. OK. All right.

APPLAUSE OK. Is there any chance of winning

somebody like that back? You are a minister in the Scottish Government,

an SNP member as well. What would you say to this gentleman? The NHS

is very much a cherished institution. It treats hundreds of

thousands of people every year. It doesn't always get it right, but it

is an institution that we should all be rightly proud of. Going forward

in terms of protecting public services, the question is do we

think they are more protected in the hands of the Tories, as George

Osborne said there is ?25 billion of cuts coming in addition to the cuts

we have already had? We depend on funding from the NHS through the

Barnet Formula. Any privatisation of the NHS has a direct affect on

Scotland... That's disgraceful. I didn't attack you Jenny Marra. In

terms of protecting the NHS, the best way to protect the NHS is with

a Yes vote so we can take forward the NHS and make sure we continue to

fund it in the way that it needs to be funded. I'm Daniel Johnstone. I'm

a business owner in Edinburgh. Shona, which year in the last four

years has the NHS budget in England gone down? Which year? Any of them?

No, none of them. It has gone up year after year. What you just said

is not true and very misleading. It is the sort of statement which

people are getting sick of in this debate. I think you should be

ashamed of yourself. APPLAUSE

If you look at what people in England are saying, the Labour Party

in England... Up or down? Are talking about privatisation and the

threat to the NHS. Is it going up or down? People are on the march to

protect the NHS. A Professor who is an expert says the privatisation of

the NHS is a threat. Are all these people wrong? It is just not

happening. Here is Jo Swinton, a representative of the British

Government. It is just not true what you are saying about the NHS. The

NHS is a beloved institution that we cherish up and down the UK. It is

not something we only love here in Scotland. People in the rest of the

country love it, too. It is something which has been protected

in terms of the spending year-on-year, despite the difficult

times. The bigger threat to the NHS, if Scotland were to become

independent, is the fact that the Institute for Fiscal Studies have

pointed out there would be a ?6 billion black hole that would need

to be found by an independent Scotland and the ability, therefore,

of an independent Scotland to fund services like the NHS would be put

at risk. Let's hear from this gentlemen. Good

morning. APPLAUSE

My name is Alistair. I'm a GP in this area. I have worked in the NHS

for 36 years. I'm entirely dedicated to it. I think it is a fantastic

institution. I would like to address some comments to the undecided. What

you have just heard in the last two minutes is probably why most of you

are undecided. It is nothing but political bickering and chucking

huge financial sums at each other. APPLAUSE

What is your point? What I would like to say is I started off this

referendum campaign voting no because I was persuaded by some of

the economic arguments. I have spoken to GPs in England and

patients' representatives in England. They are devastated by what

is happening down there. Cancer services are being handed out to

private companies. You know what private companies do, in terms of it

is profit first, patient second. That cannot be dissputed by anybody.

If you want to go home from hospital, Sir, in a Tesco van, in

five years' time, you will vote no. My name is Moira. I know a lot about

the NHS. I have worked in it for 58 years. Em-- 38 years. I need

assurance about the future running of the NHS. At the moment it is

shambles. Managers, some of them who have never nursed before, don't know

what is going on, on the shop floor and we need to know what is

happening. So, what is the assurance that you want? And from whom? More

staff. Firstly, more staff. This gentlemen from the Pensioners' Forum

is right. He and I know what is going on. The GP knows what is going

on? Do you want to know what is going on? Tell us. It is a shambles

at the moment. So, I don't know if you can give that guarantee, if you

are able to, in the event of a No vote that there be more staff. The

national health service in Scotland is completely under the control of

the Scottish Parliament. So any problems with the NHS in Scotland

has to be at the door of the government in Scotland which is the

SNP which has been in power for seven years. I think every public

sector institution needs reform to keep it modern. The SNP have done

nothing whatsoever in Scotland over the past seven years to reform the

NHS. It is in control of the government in Scotland. It is under

no threat at all. This lady wants the assurance of more staff in the

event of a Yes vote. Talk to her. We have put more staff into the NHS.

You haven't. She works there. I accept everything is not perfect but

it is a huge institution that is now performing better in terms of

waiting lists. The yes is more staff in the convenient of the Yes vote.

There are more staff and nurses in the NHS. It is just not happening.

Well, there are more staff. The statistics show that. What we

obviously have to do is to make sure the staff are in the right places

and to make sure on the ground, on the frontline that the staff are

there in the wards. What we need to do, though s to keep people -- is to

keep people from going into hospital in the first place which is why we

are integrating health with social care, to keep older people,

particularly, in their own homes instead of a hospital bed which is

quite often the wrong and last place an older person needs to be. There

is more work to be done. It is not going to improve with a No vote W a

Yes vote we will have more resources to invest. There is no more money. I

still need to be convinced on that. So, what is going to do that in the

next 16 days? I'm worried about you. I'm worried about myself and the

NHS. I'm worried about nurse, the day-to-day running. But on voting

day - you have heard the responses from both sides, what will happen? I

Am swaying towards a yes. Morning. I'm a pharmacist. I live in

Aberdeen. I would like to say I'm voting no. Basically in the NHS in

Scotland we are actually quite lucky in a sense that I am able to provide

service that is my colleagues in England and Wales can't do. I'm able

to prescribe medicines on some service that is are funded through

the Scottish government. This is due to the security we get from the UK

economy. I believe that if we went independent - you may laugh - but if

we went independent, I believe there will be a financial backhole as the

lady in the front said and we will have a serious problem when it comes

to the NHS. OK. We are over here. I'm Gordon Ada.

I'm in just outside Dundee -- Adam. I would like to highlight the

Scottish National Party's hypocrisy is overwhelming. They spend a

fortune, hundreds of millions on private commissions to reduce

waiting list initiatives throughout Scotland. Preaching about

privatisation is a bit rich. Why are you voting the way you are voting?

Why are you voting no? Why am I voting? First and foremost because

I'm British as well as Scottish. Here, here. Secondly, because, I

believe in preserving over 200,000 workers' jobs in the financial

service sector, several thousand jobs in the ship-building industry

and 20% of the workforce are employed by companies who are based

in England, Northern Ireland and Wales. Would they move? Yes. How

many of these companies are going to hang about when they are subjected

to new taxation systems, newlations, and new trade barriers? - no

regulations. I fear for those jobs and I fear for my country.

APPLAUSE I'm Morag. I work in the university

here in Dundee. I'm a Scot, I'm a Brit, I'm a European. I'm a

humanitarian, feminist and pacifist an awful lot of things but that

isn't the factor for me. You can talk about the trouble the Scottish

Government has. The Westminster Government doesn't have a monopoly

on bad decisions plenty have been made lobely. The important thing --

locally. The important thin is by voting yes we put the decisions in

the hands of the Scottish Parliament and we let them make the decisions

now. Right now they are making those decisions based on the budget they

are getting and doing their damnedest. Their best. People talk

about lowering taxes. I want to see higher tax that is fund a better

quality of life for everyone in this country. OK.

APPLAUSE I'm Ivan McKee. I run manufacturing

businesses in Scotland, England and across Europe in employing people.

The point about business will leave Scotland fp independent, nonsense.

People said this before devolution, the businesses are still here.

Business will do business where they can make money. Money is there to be

made in Scotland. If you look across the last five years, the data we

have the facts for, if Scotland had been independent, we had the same

percentage of UK spending, as raised in UK taxes, we would have been ?8.5

billion better off. If you accepted what Jenny Marra

said, as if it was the only country in the world have done all these

things. Plenty of other countries in the world have done that. They have

better services than us. Please don't talk over each other, or else

nobody can hear you. We will continue you the conversation and

I'll continue to ask you how you are going to vote and why you are still

undecided. We have heard with a lot of the undecided they are leaning

heavily one way or the other. Verity mentioned earlier, the negative

campaigning. I want to talk about the campaign. I want to ask you

whether you think the campaigning has risen to the challenge? Has

risen to the occasion? Really interested in your views about this.

If we can get a microphone here. Hello. How would you describe the

campaign? I think there has been many different layers to the

campaign. I'm Philip from Dundee a member of the Socialist Party

locally. I have been involved in the socialist campaign for independence.

I think in terms of the "yes" side there have been all sorts of

different layers. We have been organising public meetings up and

down the country with people like Tommy Sheridan speaking, putting a

case for how the powers of independence can be used to end

poverty and austerity. I have to laugh when I hear Jo Swinton and

Jenny Marra make the case with social progress? What social

progress is it, with 1 million people using food banks over the

last three years. APPLAUSE

What kind of social progress do we have with record numbers of zero

hour contracts, fallen wages, benefit cuts that are destroying

lives and families. I till, I'm not just -- I tell you, I'm not just

speaking for myself. Hundreds of people are voting yes to escape from

austerity and cuts. We need to ensure that the powers of

independence are used to end these 21st century scandals by

distributing wealth from the elite and big business, to ordinary

working people. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

Before we get some more views. I would very much like to ask you what

you have made of the campaigning, but as a broad and clearly

unscientific snapshot. And do answer with a loud, yes or no, who here

feels they have been able it get straight -- to get straight-forward

facts and information. NO.

As I said unscientific but I would say more noes than yeses. How would

you describe the campaign? Has it risen to the occasion? It is a

serious moment. It is excessive. The reason why we are sitting here is

because of the amount of bickering that has happened from both sided.

We are, not just in this section, but across the country, we are the

votes that can swing your way or your way, you are not convincing us,

you are bickering, causing issues. We want you to be upfront, honest to

make the decision which is the best for Scotland. How undecided are you,

really? Most people have said, seven or eight. I'm still sitting at a 1.

I'm probably the only 1 that's completely... You really don't vb a

clue -- don't have a clue? I could either sit on my house or worse, go

down there and write down, "undecided" which would really annoy

a lot of people. Has the campaign not been long enough for you? It's

went on a while. All right. In the next two weeks,

what are you hoping to hear that you haven't heard in 18 months?. For me

it is tuition fooes and the -- fees and the NHS. I fear if I bring that

up again, the bickering is going to start. You will have to do your own

research. Hello, good morning. I'm Tim Allan. I'm a private

business owner in Dundee. I'm a no voter. We have spent ?150 million so

far developing the waterfront here. I have employed hundreds of men for

the last eight years working down here in Dundee. It is a great city.

One of myp complaints about the -- my complaints about the campaign,

and I will address this to the undecided. Some might remember a

film called the Usual Suspects. The greatest trick the devil pulled is

making you believe it didn't exist. The greatest trick the SNP have been

doing, is telling the same lies long enough and loud enough to object if

I skate the matters. Everybody is hungry for facts. I am

a founder and director of a company in England. All the management is

Scotland. They move their pension fund away from Scotland, because of

the uncertainty of the capital situation up here. So actually this

erosion of our economy is taking place now because of the pernicious

campaign run by the Yes campaign. campaign run by the

A pernicious campaign? Morning, I'm goery Phillips I'm Dundee and I'm

votingle. I would say that -- voting yes. I would say the greatest issue

out of this is that unyooists politicians are not entightling

their constituents to have the facts by acting out of their own interests

and impartiality. Who wants to respond to that? I'm a student at

the University of Edinburgh. I am a No voter, but I have found it very

frustrating... Why are you in the undecided section then? I am a No

voter, but I find it frustrating the way the No Campaign presents people

voting yes. What the gentleman said about benefits cuts, these are

concerns, but the way it is portrayed in the media. It is as if

they are just nationalists, no, they want independence for legitimate

reasons. I have plenty of friends who are left leaning, but feel the

Better Together And other campaigns don't do them justice. Talk to the

Better Together people. They are right here. I agree with a lot of

what you are saying. We all want a better Scotland. We all want more

jobs. Sorry, you're not answering his point. We do need to talk about

how devolution might work. All three pro-European parties do have

concrete black and white proposals, all similar... His point was the

Better Together Campaign have been portraying people... What I want to

talk more about... Why don't you just tell him. The man has concerns

about social and justice. Patrick. Patrick you have concerns. Sorry,

can we address his point? He doesn't like the way you have run your

campaign. Talk to him. It is the way it is portrayed in the media and the

way Better Together ran the media campaign. The way young people feel

dis-I I -I illusioned. You can strive for social justice and be

young and vote no. Dennis Canavan, we haven't heard from you. Good

morning. My name is Dennis Canavan. I used to be a Labour MP at

Westminster and then an Independent MSP in the Scottish Parliament. I

chair the advisory board of the Yes Scotland Campaign. We have chaired a

Scotland with higher social justice and a Scotland that would put more

importance on welfare rather than warfare by getting rid of nuclear

weapons in Scotland. APPLAUSE OK,

we're going to talk more. We've got another hour of conversing to do. Do

stay with us. This is Five Live, BBC Two and the BBC News Channel and in

the next half an hour, we're going to talk more about the issues that

are outstanding. So many of them as you have heard so far today. We're

going to talk about the polls and an area which has less attention than

the others. What Scotland might look like if there is a No vote. We have

a representative of the UK Government and a represent of the

Scottish Government here as well. You're welcome to join us using

social media. The hashtag is Scotland decides. It is time for

latest news. I am Simon McCoy. South Yorkshire

Police announced an investigation into the force's handling of an

investigation into child sexual exploitation. An investigation last

week revealed that 1600 children had suffered abuse over a 14 year

period. Ross Hawkins has more. Labour have announced this morning

that they are suspending four of their members in Rotherham. Three of

whom are sitting counsellors. One is a former councillor. Now, they go on

to say that further action is possible. Too risky and too

expensive is the opinion on building an airport on the so-called Boris

Island. The chair of the airport's commission said a network of

airports would be a better option for London rather than one large

hub. Our view is that one huge airport way out east is not the

right answer for London. We think a network of competing airports is

likely to produce a better solution for the passengers of London. But

also, of course, one has to note that it is a long way away from

other centres of population. This is all really a gigantic smoke screen

for a U-turn on Heathrow. The merit of the estuary scheme is it is

environmentally sensitive. It solves our problem in the long-term. What

we are really careering towards is a third runway at Heathrow followed

then by a fourth runway. South Yorkshire's Chief Constable

and the Director-General of the BBC will appear before MPs today to

answer questions about the Corporation's reporting of a police

search of Sir Cliff Richard's home. The force head and BBC boss will

face members of the Home Affairs Select Committee this afternoon.

Prosecutors are reviewing the case against a British couple who removed

their seriously ill son from hospital in Southampton. Mr and Mrs

King spent the night in a Spanish prison after they refused to return

to the UK. Mr and Mrs King say they took their son abroad because they

wanted him to have a treatment not available on the NHS. This is a

family in a state of real anguish who have taken this step of moving

their sick child to another country because they think that's what is

best for their child. Now, we can debate whether it is or it is not,

but that seems to be their motives and those are not motives that I can

argue with. Nick Clegg. That's a summary of the news. Now, it is back

to Victoria in Dundee. Will Scotland vote to stay or quit

the United Kingdom after one of the longest referendum campaigns ever? I

have spoken to a couple of people in the last few days who say it hasn't

been long enough, but maybe that's just Dundee. We will have the answer

to that in over a couple of weeks time. Ahead of that result, we're

broadcasting on the BBC News Channel and BBC Two and on Five Live with an

audience of 300 voters live in Dundee.

APPLAUSE Let me read some messages on Twitter

and text messages from people listening around the country.

"Scotland, it is a divorce, plain and simple. Scotland should accept

its fair share of the UK debt as it leaves the house." This listener

says, "We, as a people, are not going to change overnight. Why

should we be afraid of that." The Caird Hall looks stunning. My dad

saw Sinatra play there in 1963. John in Devon says there is a silver

lining if the Scots decide to stand on their own two feet. The Labour

Party will become unelectable in England. That would be beneficial to

me. Roger is an ex-pat Scot in Exeter. How is Scotland proposing to

patrol its waters? The question on the ballot paper would be this -

should Scotland be an independent country? What have the polls been

suggesting? Professor John Curtis is it here from Strathclyde University,

and also Brian Taylor and people will not know, you two have

performed in here as a child. Oh, thanks a bunch! I was a boy soprano,

but I drifted. I appeared on the stage with the BBC Choir. I won't

ask you to reprice it now? When I was an infant. I am a supporter of

Dundee United Football Club. APPLAUSE

John Curtis, we're going to talk about the polls and there is another

one out today. A health warning, first of all, this referendum has no

precedent, it is difficult to predict the outcome of an

referendum, the pollsters don't have anything to measure their poll

results against, do they? You are correct. The challenge this

referendum poses is a substantial one. Normally pollsters learn from

their previous mistakes. If they make a mistake at the previous

election, they try to correct it next time around. This issue has

never been put to Scottish voters before and it does pose the

pollsters with a challenge which is rather greater than trying to

estimate what is going to happen in an election. The polls might be red,

but we shouldn't be absorbed by them. What have the polls been

suggesting? We have had 81 opinion polls that have posed the question

should Scotland be an independent country? Since the question is to

appear on the ballot paper was settled in February of last year. Of

those polls, 80 have put the no side ahead and that's the reason why the

no side are the odds on favourites to win. That said however, point

number one is the polls have disagreed with each other about how

far the no side are ahead and some have long said no, it is around 45,

46, 47% for the yes side, it is a narrow race. Other polls have tended

to suggest, no, it is around 41%, 42% for yes and it looks as if it is

over. Well, the health warning is the more recent polls, over the last

two or three weeks have been suggesting that perhaps tz yes side

have been making further progress. In particular, we have a poll, it is

only one poll, but it is an interesting poll, from a polling

organisation YouGov which has been one of the pollsters which has been

putting it around the 41%, 42%, this morning saying that yes are at 47%,

if you take the average of a last half a dozen opinion polls, we are

looking at yes at 45% and no at 55%. So certainly, no are still ahead,

but it looks as though the yes side may have gained some momentum in the

last two or three weeks and that's the reason why this last fortnight

both sides are going to fight this campaign very hard indeed because

the no side can't now be sure of winning and the yes side still have

hope that they can pull it off. These people sitting behind you,

again, we heard some leaning one way or the way. How crucial will the

undecideds be? There is not many people left who say, "I have no idea

at all." People in Scotland lie on a spectrum of indecision. Some people

made their minds up years ago and will never change. There are still

people who say, "I think I'm going to vote yes, but maybe I'll vote no,

but are saying I'm not there, I might change my mind. " They are not

talking to voters who have no idea of what they are going to do. If the

yes side are going to succeed in persuading some of the folk behind

me to vote no, they will have to change their minds and if the no

side are going to make ground, they are going to have to persuade other

people behind me who are thinking of voting yes that they should vote no.

That's a difficult job for both campaigns than talking to people who

have no idea at all. And the turnout? Well, it looks as if the

one piece of good news that perhaps everybody in this room could embrace

and accept as being good news is that we're going to get a high

turnout in the referendum. What is crucial, is that both sides accept

that this referendum result, whatever it is, does represent the

collective judgement of Scotland's voters and the higher the turnout,

the more if we get 80% turnout, the argument will be clearly won. Brian

Taylor, what are you expecting from both campaigns in the last few days?

The question is should Scotland be an independent country? But there is

a second question lurking in the shadows, is what sort of Scotland

would that independent Scotland be? It could be a gal tarian, it could

be the opposite. There is no reason why an independent should go down

the Galatarian route. We are discussing what would happen with

the powers and it is the secondary argue the that is causing the

discussion. You have a discussion about the bold facts and figures of

independence, but at the same time you have a discussion about the NHS

and about the future of the welfare system and it is those questions

which are secondary to the question of independence. It is the secondary

questions that grab the interest of the voters and the viewers and

listeners to this programme. They want to hear what would happen with

independence and that's why you have almost on both sides, it is phishers

within the argument. This isn't an election. It is not an election

where people are putting forward a manifesto for one side, two, three,

four other parties and people judge between those. It is a single

proposition, should Scotland be an independent country? You either

endorse that or you negate that and that's where the tensions lie. To

those who say it has been bickering and argumentative, hey, welcome to

politics. These are tough, hard, decisions, you don't settle the

future of a country which a group hug. You have got to have a tough

argument. How would you describe the tone of the edate? -- debate The

accusation that the Better Together side have been negative, I think

misses the point. They are seeking to negate a proposition. So

understandably they put forward things that say - independence is

not a particularly good idea. At the same time, they have sought to put

forward alternatives but it is alternatives, plural, which I think

perhaps has been the problem for them at some point. There isn't a

single coherent offer. We say - we heard it said earlier, it is the

overlap, at diagram at points, there isn't a single offer. The gentlemen

from the Socialist Party might take a different perspective from some in

the SNP, who might take a different look at what would happen, after

independence. The problem is independence, you either endorse it

or negate it. Good morning. I'm the student

president at Aberdeen University at Dundee. On a personal capacity I

would vote yes but in terms of representing stuntsd and young

people within the city, I think it is positive to see so many

schoolchildren or young adults, as they might want to be called and

really positive that they are engaging in this debate. I think

some of the points that Brian was making there, this is less about

party politics, this is more about what people have said earlier about

people's futures. Have you found that to be quite that sort of

soul-searching - what kind of a country do I want to live in, that

has been healthy? I think it has been healthy, as like, a 20-year-old

who has never experienced that within politics before, in my

lifetime. I think these debates and these campaigns have brought that to

light and brought that young people - that's what politics should be

about. And kind of, I don't know, fearful, if it is a No vote and we

go down the route of a Westminster Government, will 16 and 17-year-olds

be given the franchise, is that a possibility in the future? I think

this debate and this campaign has demonstrated that young people are,

you know, it is their future and their country that they want to be a

part of. I think it is really important in politics going forward.

APPLAUSE I think it is very important for

people to realise that the "yes" Scotland campaign is not simply an

SNP campaign. It feels like it to some people.

A yes vote in the referendum is not a vote Alex Salmond or any

particular politician. A yes vote in the referendum is a vote for a

better Scotland and there is an absolute guarantee that Scotland

will be governed by a government, elected by the people of Scotland

and ask theable to the people of -- elected by the people of Scotland

and accountable to the people of Scotland instead of what we have

now. A Tory coalition which the magnificent total of one, one member

representing Scotland. OK. Hello, good morning. I'm Frances. I

am voting no. I think Brian Taylor has highlighted the real crux of the

matter - what of the future? Not our future but our children's future, as

regards to nationalism. Because, although we are being told

continually that it is not a vote for the SNP, if we vote yes, let's

be logical about it. The SNP really are the only one in a position, at

the moment, to put forward a government. And they will definitely

be voted in the next one because they have the machinery and also

because they have this - if you are not for us, you are against us -

attitude. All right, well, sorry... Have we looked at what does

nationalism mean? Why do you rule the world nationalism out? Because

it has caused wars. Family against... That's the history. I'm

not talking about Scottish nationalism. Nationalism in general.

What are the Scots? We are a mixture. We have come from all areas

and parts of the world and yet we get people saying - the English have

done this to us and they have done that to us. You cannot deny it.

BOOS Would you like to respond? I was

fwhorn Redcar near Middlesbrough. Born in England. My mum is a

Manchester lady. My sister is up visiting now. A bigger "yes"

supporter you could not find. It is not about nationalism. Or ethnicity.

It is about the future of our country. Everybody in this country,

wherever they are from, can join together to make Scotland the better

place that we know it can be. That is what is going to happen on 18th

September. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

Shona Robison, as a representative of the Scottish Government, I want

to ask you - so we are clear - when Alex Salmond says an independent

Scotland will use the pound come what may, do you accept that Mr

Cameron and Mr Miliband and Mr Clegg could keep their promise to veto a

formal currency union? Well, they are not saying that we can't use the

pound. I want it establish that and everybody accepts that. What the

debate is about, is about a formal currency union. What we have said is

that part of the discussion, about the assets and liabilities of the

UK, we are more than prepared to take on our share of debt - which

should be about ?100 billion, ?5 billion servicing that debt every

year. Are you accepting that they could keep their promise and pledge

and veto that? We don't believe they will, because what I'm about to tell

you is... So all three are bluffing? I believe it is part of the

campaign. Why would you not want to have Scotland take on a share of the

debt? Why would you want to impose that on England, Wales and Northern

Ireland? There is an opportunity it here to go forward in a currency

union. We absolutely believe that is what will happen. You would use the

pound without a formal currency union? We will, nobody can stop us,

but we are confident there will be a currency union. It makes sense for

businesses north and south of the border. Jo Swinton, can I ask you

first - why do so many people think your boss, and your other boss, are

bluffing? I think this is - I think wishful thinking. I mean it is not

even about the politicians. It is about the voters in Manchester or in

Cornwall and why they would want their politicians in what would be

the rest of the UK, to agree to be the lender of last resort for a

totally foreign country? There is no reason why that would be the case.

APPLAUSE Without having any say over how

those banks, for example, would be regulated. So, yes, Scotland could

use the pound in the way Panama uses the dollar, but we wouldn't have the

savings in our banks being dump backed up by lender of last resort.

It is irresponsible for a potential independent Scotland to suggest it

wouldn't pay its debts. That wouldp send sky high interest rates and

affect mortgages and bills. I want it follow this through. Let's

imagine for a moment those Westminster politicians mean it - no

formal currency union. So and Scotland uses the pound without that

formal agreement, you wouldn't have a Central Bank, no lender of last

resort. No ability to print your money. You have already said you

would not take your share of the debt so. International investors may

not lend you money. There are two scenarios. I'm putting the first one

now. Potentially big banks could leave Scotland, potentially you

would have to cut public spending dramatically. Is that a fair

summation? Let's take that scenario that Scotland would be debt-free.

Why would you be debt-free? You would have to borrow to maintain the

levels of public spending? If we don't have that, initially we would

be in surplus. And therefore the credit rating...

ALL TALK AT ONCE One of the biggest credit rating

agents have said Scotland would have a top rating because of its

financial position. But can I say about the currency union - we

believe there would be a currency union. Why would you want to saddle

the rest of the UK with additional debt, Jo, it doesn't make sense? Why

would a Government turn around to its people and say - we are going to

saddle you with additional debt. In terms of the default, there would be

no default because the UK Government has already said it is legally

liable to the debt. It has issued that to the market there. Would be

no default. We are happy to take on our share but there has to be a

discussion of liabilities, as well as assets. The UK Government has

responsibly made sure that there is confidence in the UK economy in

terms of the fact that as a country we will make sure the debts are

paid. As a Scottish Government, coming into and state, that would

already face a challenge of credibility as a new country that

didn't, therefore, have a track record, if its first act was to say,

we are not going to pay our debts, our fair share, frankly, that would

be catastrophic for the Scottish economy.

APPLAUSE We will bring someone else in. We

will pay our fair share. Introduce yourself. I don't know why they

don't get it. One of your persons put in before saying - if you leave

the house you don't take some of the liabilities. If you are don't own

part of the house, then you are not responsibility for the mortgage. In

a situation where we are not taking part of the assets, we will not be

responsibility for those liabilities, that's the reality of

what would it be. As far as the markets are concerned, the markets

will lend to people that have the capacity to pay back, and if we are

not saddled with a huge debt, if anything, you will get more

favourable terms from the market. One final point that Brian said

earlier - he said we weren't sure what we are going to get. What we

are going to get, is whatever the people of Scotland decide we want to

get. This is all about whether we people of Scotland decide we want to

have the confidence to stand on our own two feet, make our own

decisions, use our own resources for the benefit of this country or

whether we are happy to let somebody else carry on making the mess that

they have done n previous decades. APPLAUSE

If it is your country, why does it matter on both sides? It matters for

those advocating independence because they are seeking to offer

reassurance, it is a much bigger version of retaining the Queen in an

independent Scotland. It is stressing that there will be

elements of continue uity, elements of reassurance. Why is it an acute

dilemma for Salmond is? He wishes to offer that reassurance, he knows

people welcome the pound sterling and wish to keep T but to do so, he

requires endorsement from those in whose political interests it lies to

say a currency union will not take place. It is a dilemma for the First

Minister and those advocating independence more generally. I'm

from Newcastle originally but I have lived in Dundee for a few years.

from Newcastle originally but I have am undecided. Do I want to live in

from Newcastle originally but I have country where it is more

democratically accountable? Yes. Do I want to live in a country where

the country is friends and still friends that it formally was? Yes. I

think it is atrocious the way the UK Government, I'm talking about

Westminster, has acted in letting Scotland rip itself apart and become

more decided. -- divided. It is up to Scottish people. Of course it is.

But I'm saying the way the UK Government has acted in saying -

take your referendum and go fight about it, there has not been a

mature political debate coming from Westminster at all. They are handing

the keys and going - do whatever you want. What is going to help you

decide in the next couple of weeks? I would like to see more goodwill

from Westminster. Let's assume that doesn't happen, just for the

purposes of this conversation. Who are you listening to? Is it your

mum? Your partner, your sister, what is it? All women there I would

happily listen to any woman. There is enough of them in this room. With

my heart, I have generally feel I'm leaning more towards yes but I would

like to see more reassurance and less scaremongering.

OK. Do you have a point here? You are on, good morning. I'm Martin,

I'm from Dundee, obviously. Are you reading that off your notepad? In

case you forget your name. Welcome. I would like to he it Tait the

statement from 65 top be academics relating to higher educating funding

in an independent Scotland. Universities thrive in Scotland and

in no small part thanks to lots of research funding from British

institutions and bodies and EU funding as well. If we take that

away from our students, we deny our brightest academics the chance to

pursue research degrees. We also go back to the kind of - sort of

elitist financially-p driven education system we have been trying

to undo for the last 300 years. This is more complaints and bodies coming

through regarding funding. I would like to put to our MSP who said they

can't all be wrong. We have 65 be a domestics this week coming out with

200 business owners last week. We have had every economist under the

sun. It is not economically viable whatsoever.

There is no point shouting, unless you have a microphone. Briefly, we

have the news. We have had lots of businesses coming forward, backing

independence and academics for Yes, have made the point that Scottish

universities being so brilliant as they are, will continue to attract

the research funding, not just across the UK but from Europe and

beyond, in a common research area. Cancer Research UK says it doesn't

matter what the outcome of the referendum is, because they'll still

continue to invest research in the fantastic institutions we have here

in Scotland and quite, right, so. Sir Philip Cohen which set up the

life sciences is completely against the proposition of independence for

his research funding. People at Dundee University told me that

independence would be the mother of all disasters for the cancer

research, and diabetes research and the local economy in this city.

We're coming up to the news. You have been very patient. I'm John

Mackay. I take part in the Business for Scotland Campaign in Glasgow. I

want to thank Tim for calling me pernicious. I take exception to

that. I wanted to address, if you let me go back to your original

question about how has the campaign been con ducted, am I satisfied with

it? I am satisfied with the Yes Campaign. That doesn't surprise me

at all. On the ground, it has been fantastic. What I am unhappy about

is the campaign in the media and I'm unhappy about BBC Radio Scotland and

their lack of impartiality. I'm particularly... I don't work for BBC

Radio Scotland. If they were here, they would defend themselves. In

relation to that, I take exception to the BBC paying licence fee payers

money to the CBI, I take great exception to that. Thank you. Well,

it is just after 11am. I'm Victoria Derbyshire. As the clock ticks down

to Scotland's historic vote on its future, this morning, we are live in

Dundee. Good morning. I'm Simon McCoy.

A summary of the news. Too risky and too expensive - the

option of building an airport on so-called Boris Island in the Thames

Estuary has been officially rejected. London Mayor, Boris

Johnson, described it as a very temporary setback. The chair of the

Airports Commission, Sir Howard Davies, says that a network of

airports would be a better option for London, rather than one large

airport. South Yorkshire Police

Our view is one huge airport way out east is not the right answer for

London. We think a network of competing airports is likely to

produce a better solution for the passengers of London, but also, of

course, one has no note that it is a long way away from other centres of

population. This is all really a gigantic smoke screen for a U-turn

on Heathrow. The great merit of the estuary scheme is it is

environmentally sensitive. It solves our problem in the long-term. What

we're really careering towards is a third runway at Heathrow followed by

a fourth runway. South Yorkshire Police has announced

an independent investigation into the force's handling of child sexual

exploitation in Rotherham. A report last week revealed at least 1,400

children had suffered abuse over a 16 year period. Meanwhile Labour

today says it has suspended three councillors over the scandal. Ross

Hawkins has more. Labour have announced this morning

that they are suspending four of their members in Rotherham, three of

whom are sitting councillors, one is a former councillor. Now, they go on

to say that further action is perfectly possible.

Hawkins has more. South Yorkshire's Chief Constable

and the Director-General of the BBC will appear before MPs today to

answer questions about the corporation's reporting of a police

search of Sir Cliff Richard's home. Sir Cliff denies allegations of a

sexual assault on a young boy in 1985. Force head David Crompton and

BBC boss Lord Hall will face members of the Home Affairs Select Committee

this afternoon. Prosecutors are reviewing the case

against a British couple who removed their seriously ill son from a

hospital in Southampton. Brett and Naghmeh King, whose five-year-old

son Ashya has a brain tumour, spent the night in a Spanish prison after

they refused to return to the UK. Mr and Mrs King say they took their son

abroad because they wanted him to receive a treatment not available to

him on the NHS. The Deputy Prime From this morning, every child in

their first three years of primary school in England should receive a

free school meal. The government says 98% of schools will provide hot

food. But the Local Government

Let's return to Victoria Derbyshire in Dundee.

We've got a problem with that. We'll go back to Victoria in a moment. New

figures show the number of people admitted to hospital for skin cancer

treatment has risen by a third in five years. In 2007 there were

87,000 admissions while in 2011 there were over 123,000. I can now

hand you back to Victoria in Dundee. I'm Victoria Derbyshire as the clock

ticks down to Scotland's historic vote on its future, this morning, we

are live in Dundee. APPLAUSE

And in the next half an hour, we're going to find out if any of those

here who say they are still undecided are any closer to reaching

that decision. We've heard some who are close. But any closer to

reaching a decision on how they will vote in the referendum in just over

two weeks time and you can join us too. We're live on Five Live and the

BBC News Channel. You can text us this morning or via social media

using the hashtag Scotland decides. Thank you.

APPLAUSE OK, let me read more texts and tweets

before we hear more from the audience here today in Dundee. My

name is Max from Glasgow says this tweeter. There is no credible plan

for this and that's why I'm voting no amongst other reasons. I love the

idea of this magical independent Scotland. A listener on Twitter

says, "It isn't about oil, ship building or whisky, it is about

Scotland being able to determine its own destiny. " John says, "I dislike

referendums as the average person doesn't have enough knowledge to

make such big decisions as this. It should be left to the politicians."

That's the worst idea I have heard all day! Nick in Cambridge, "Voting

for independence simply because you don't like the Tories at Westminster

won't make Scottish people's lives better in any way."

APPLAUSE Good morning. Morning. I'm David and

I'm one of your fabled young voters. This is the first time I will be

voting in anything. What do you think about that? It is quite

interesting. Quite interesting. LAUGHTER

But one of the things I feel most strongly about is the fact that the

No Campaign say that everything will be milk and honey in an independent

Scotland and yet they say there will not be one single thing which will

work. They say we can't have a currency, we can't have research

funding and they say we can't have this, we can't have that. It would

be massively in the UK's interest to have a currency union because

Scotland massively reduces the UK's deficit of payment and their reasons

for this are saying, "We won't be your lender of last resort, but as

that, we will just take your debt anyway." The point is if the

politicians in Westminster are faced with the chance of debt later or off

loading the debt they have created on an independent Scotland, surely

they would choose to off load their debt on Scotland if it declared

independence. Why would they say, you can't have that? Why would they

say, "We are giving you a gift of no debt." They would need to say yes to

a currency union because it is massively in their interests to do

so. OK. APPLAUSE

My name is Kirsten. I am also a first time voter and I'm just

wondering, assuming that Scotland does peep the pound and its -- keep

the pound and its share of the debt and as well as having the plaque

hole money that -- black hole money that we're going to need to find. As

English students come up to study in Scotland, as part of an EU state,

they will have, they will be entitled to free tuition, on top of

having the debt in Scotland, how will the Scottish Government be able

to ensure that Scottish students will also be continuing to be

entitled to free tuition? Before we answer that - sorry, our first time

voter over here described the prospect of him as voting for the it

first time as interesting. How would you describe it? It is really

interesting. Goodness, we're going up the scale. Do respond. It is

worthwhile recalling it was a Westminster Parliament that

introduced tuition fees and it was a Scottish Parliament that abolished

tuition fees, all right? Now, you pointed out that come independence

there will be an anomaly whereby English students maybe entitled to

free twu wirks. That -- tuition. That could be solved by Westminster

abolishing tuition fees south of the border. And we can give the Scottish

students a grant to pay their tuition fees and that's it. English

students will be entitled to free tuition here. Yes, they maybe

entitled to free tuition. No, they will be. If the present regime

continues. If the Scottish Parliament were to give Scottish

students domiciled in Scotland and attending Scottish universities, if

they were to give them a grant to enable them to pay the tuition fees

to the Scottish university then that would get rid of the anomaly under

European Union law, but a fairer system is if Westminster abolished

tuition fees completely for students in England and Wales. Last word to

you. I'm not talking about Westminster abolishing their tuition

fees though. Pardon? I'm not talking about Westminster abolishing their

tuition fees, I'm talking about English students coming up to

Scotland and taking our places. Hi. Hi. My name is richle. -- Rachel. I

am currently an undecided voter, but I have found myself slightly being

back and forth this morning, but I have a question for both sides of

the campaign. As we have seen today, people here are very passionate yes

and No voters, what I would like to know whatever the outcome of the

referendum, what steps will be taken to unite such a divide nation's

opinion afterwards? Whatever the outcome. I don't mind who answers.

First of all, your question on the tuition fees, we would seek an

exception in Europe because of the exceptional circumstances of us

having free tuition and a referendum taking place that would give our

nearest neighbour the opportunity to take free tuition. We would, on the

basis of that, seek an exception which Russell has been discussing

with the European Union. So we're confident that we can make a case

that actually because of the exceptional circumstances post the

referendum that we would be able to maintain that. We would seek that.

The young lady makes a very important point and for all of the

fierce debate, we on the 19th September will come back together,

no matter what the outcome in the referendum because we all want what

is best for Scotland and as a Scottish Government minister,

whatever the outcome, of course, we will take Scotland forward in the

best way. If it was a No vote would the SNP embrace further devolution?

We have already signed the Edinburgh Agreement and we always want what is

best for Scotland and it would be a missed opportunity not to take that

opportunity on the 18th September. Rachel's point is a really good one,

we have got passionate views here in this hall today, but I have found it

on doorsteps and within friendship groups, you have got people who take

different views and that's the democracy that we live in and in

some cases that gets heated and we don't want that to lead to division

and we will respect the outcome of the referendum and in the case of a

No vote then we have said that within a month of the No vote

happening we will be convening a convention would we get the

political parties together, not just those that have been on the no side,

but those who have been on the yes side too to forge the next step in

Scotland's constitutional journey. If there was a No vote, what the Lib

Dems promising? Sir Menzies Campbell set out our home rule position. All

income tax should be set. Up to 15 set out our home rule position. All

tax. In total then the Scottish tax. In total then the Scottish

Parliament would be responsible for raising the majority of the money

that it spends. That's really important. Oil revenues, control of

its oil revenues? Some things are better left at Westminster level.

But the corporation tax receipts, but the corporation tax receipts

would come to Scotland. I thought it was a burden to have the oil. It

depends where oil companies are, but that would mean some of that would

go to the Scottish Parliament. Would it cut corporation tax? We are

saying it would be better to have one rate of corporation tax across

the United Kingdom, it is about the receipts of corporation tax rather

than having different regimes. It is beneficial for business to have one

regime that they can deal with rather than having the extra costs

of dealing with different tax rates in different parts of the country.

The Conservatives and the Labour Party have also said they would

offer more powers to the Scottish Parliament in the event of a No

vote. Can you sum-up what they are each offering? Labour are talking

enhancing income tax power. The Tories are proposing to devolve the

whole of income tax. It is an intriguing situation, where the

Conservatives, who were the most sceptical, the most hostile about

devolution in the first place, and as a consequence over a period of

some 40 years, saw their vote decline in Scotland, very sharply

from a position when in the year I was born they were the largest party

in Scotland - I will leave you to work that out when that that was --

and now they are very much not. But now they have endorsed devolution to

an extent where they are on some elements outpacing the Labour Party

on terms of what they offer. Each of the parties who are advocating a No

vote, say there is common ground between those, you heard the offer -

a convention convened. One thing that will happen shortly after the

vote on September 18th. The Moddiate of the General Say acceptably -- the

Moderating, of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland is

proposingal service for healing. Good luck with that. Many people are

leaning one way or the other, the undecided. I will ask you, in a

couple of minutes, if any of you have reached a decision or are close

to making a decision to stand up. Not yet. Don't peak too soon. I

realise it could be a total anticlimax. Nobody may stand up. It

might be telling. Obviously I'm not suggesting in this hour or so we

have tipped you one way or the other but potentially you may have heard

something from our guests and passionate audience that has done

that. Let's hear from two well-known names with their reasons why

Scotland should become independent and why, Scotland should stay as

part of the UK. I'm Ricky Ross. I'm honoured to be

able to share my vision with people who are watching this 2349 Cared

Hall in my only City of Dundee -- in the Cair Hall. Here is what I dream

B I want to live in a country which has the courage to talk to itself

without thinking it has to talk via London. I want to live in a country

where people come first and everyone gets a fairer share of our enormous

wealth. I want a country which plays an increasingly positive role in

international relations and doesn't carry the threat of nuclear weapons

to get its way. I want to live in a country where unemployment continues

to come down, but where those in work are not harnessed at zero hour

contracts, are respected by trade unions and are paid a living wage. I

want a country which doesn't just pay lip service to the idea of a

National Health Service but enshrines its existence within a

written constitution. I want to live in a country where payment to a

political party doesn't buy you power in an unelected chamber. And

finally, I want to live in a country where newcomers are not feared or

vilified but welcomed as equal parters in a new igs in a. If you

want these things -- a new nation. If you want these things and more,

vote yes on September, 18. Th. Hello done dee. I'm Tony Robinson. I

watched the two big debates. I thought the politicians missed out

one really important issue, which is this - birds don't recognise

national boundaries. Nor do fish or pollution or bacteria or rising sea

levels. The big issues are the next 50 years, are going to be

environmental. And they are going to affect the whole island. Not just

parts of it. They are going to need a strong, absolutely co-ordinated

response. There are countless examples of neighbouring countries,

falling out big time over things like access to water, and flooding

and how to react to epidemics or national dises asters. We know what

the relationship was like, prior to the Act of Union between Scotland

and England. Fractious, to say the least. Do we really think that

something similar won't happen next time? And we can't think that

bureaucratic Brussels is going to be able to solve things for us. No, we

need a strong government acting in the interests of the island as a

whole, not just Scotland or England. In the 19th and 20th centuries we

solved some of the most intractable problems on the globe together.

Let's do the same in the 21st century.

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE Bear with me on this. It may not

work. Lovely people in the undecided

section. Around 70 or so, if you feel you have made a decision, or

are close to making a decision, would you please simply stand up.

Wow. Well, let's hear from you. Stay standing, Sir. If you don't mind,

stay standing. Can I ask you what decision you have made? I'm Doug

from Dundee. I work in Scotland but also work in England. I'm going to

be a no now. I think Brian summed it up. If we vote a yes, we are not

always going to get guaranteed we are going to get what we want

because we have to have another vote to get a government in place. That

might not give that chap the socialist government he wants or the

university people what they want. There are too many things, for me,

that are undecided. OK, all right. Please, ladies and gentlemen, let's

hear what these people have to say. How close to that can that decision

were you today? More a no than a yes. All right, people who feel they

have made a decision or close? I think the referendum is on the SNP's

terms and even though there are different left-wing groups involved

on that side it will be dominated by the SNP, a political party that

wants to reduce corporation tax. How do you reconcile social justice and

reducing corporation tax? I don't see how it works on the political

agenda. You are a no. You were happily leaning no, anyway. We will

pass the microphone around. We will pass it down and tell us what

decision you have reached. Good morning and introduce yourself. Yes.

OK. I am veering towards yes, I have to say. Can you tell us why?

I think what I have heard today is that there are positives and there

are negatives on both sides. To be frank, I think they are rather

balancing themselves out, so the final decision for me is going to be

around the very simple principle of - should we, the people of Scotland

elect our government and run our affairs ourselves and I'm coming to

the conclusion that we should. OK, pass it down. I'm Len. I, too, am a

yes. The bottom line for Mijas been very simple: -- the bottom line for

me has been simple. And whether you approve of SNP or not, we have

proved that in the last six years. More importantly, would things

improve for the people of Scotland if we voted no? I passionately

believe that would not be the case. Let me ask you - at what point, you

are sitting in the undecided section after an 18-month campaign. At what

point did you reach the yes vote? I will be honest with you. Today has

reinforced my undecided view. I will be honest, I have already voted yes.

Oh, my gosh. Only because... Only because I have a postal vote and I'm

going on have acation. Why are you sitting on the undecided section?

JEERS FROM THE CROWD Why are you sitting in the und

section? -- undecided. It is the old heart verses mind. I was definitely

in that position between the time when you first contacted us as to

whether I wanted to appear. I was undecided and debating. I had to

make my vote and I have. OK, can you pass the microphone to some of the

people sitting down who have still not made a decision. So just in

front of you, Sir, they are sitting down. Hello. Hi. You have still not

decided. I think there is too much argy bargy, politics. If I vote yes,

which I'm probably more inclined to do, although I'm not sure, I'm not

voting for SNP. The whole idea here seems it be based around the fact

that you are voting for a left-wing or right-wing - we'll get what we

want if we have a Scottish Parliament of our own. That's our

decision and that's irrelevant to a certain extent. You either want

independence or you don't. You are not voting SNP. OK. Pass the

microphone, if you don't mind to the young lady in front of you.

You are still undecided? ? Yes. I live in Dundee I'm originally from

the Netherlands. I'm as yet undecided why I want to vote. Can I

ask you, sorry to interrupt. What do you think it is going to move you in

the next few weeks? It will be in the question. I have lived here for

14 years. Feel part of the country. My parents work here, I have friends

but most importantly we pay taxes and therefore, I feel it is

profoundly unfair that my parents and soon I, are not allowed to vote

for Westminster. What will sway me towards yes or no is whether I will

be able to vote for a Scottish Parliament in an independent

Scotland. Who wants to take up that point, briefly? Well, as an EU

citizen - you are from the Netherlands -- well, you should be

able to vote. You should be able to vote in the Scottish Parliament.

After independence, of course you will be, yes, absolutely. So, I

think Brian Taylor, what we should about this completely unscientific

snapshot of people popping up -- a lot of people were close to the

decision apart from the gentlemen who should have been yes and over

there. He was undecided at the point that he reached his indecision. We

have people here who are not representative of Scotland as a

whole they ared a very Kates for a cause. The -- advocates. The

population do not fall into yes, no, or undecided. We are all, as John

Curtice said, a spectrum of indecision from one to tevenlt I

think that's a healthy situation for the country. This is a really

difficult choice with huge implications. People, with the

exception, perhaps of those who are the most vigoroused a very Kates are

open to persuasion, even from a yes position to a no position or the

other way around. All of us, I think in a lather of honourable indecision

with regards to this particularly difficult decision. I'm Ellie, I'm

from Dundee. You have reached a decision. I'm now going to be a Yes

voter. APPLAUSE

You were leaning in that direction? Yes, always leaning in that. For how

long? The past month or two. What is it about today, if anything that has

finally allowed you to say it is a yes. I believe my future will be

better off in an independent country. OK. OK, you may take a seat

ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much. We will have a quick final

pitch from somebody on this side. A quick final pitch from somebody on

this side. I'm Bob from Angus. I would like to give the real

undecideds, a few points to ponder. I'm very proud of Scotland. I cheer

as loud as anyone when Andy Murray wins a set at Wimbledon or the

Commonwealth medallists win a med A think about it - did they do it on

their own? I somehow doubt T take Alexander Fleming and James Watt,

they would never have achieved what they did on their own, we are better

together. We keep gettinged to things are foisted on us by

Westminster. Fact here, there has not been a single decision in

Westminster that hasn't had Scottish input. In fact, two of the last

Prime Ministers have been born in Scotland. OK, final point Well, my -

we haven't had many answers from the separatists. We'll call them

separatist, not nationalists. I aliken it to being in a plane and

given a package and say - this may or may not contain a parachute which

may or may not work, but jump anyway.

APPLAUSE Thank you. Here is the thing. I am

not a nationalist, I am not a separatist, I want to be more

involved in the world affairs. I want to save the environment if we

can. I want to see us fight for social justice. This is about

representation and self-determination. This is not

about, you know, what we get, it is about the currency, frankly, I don't

want the pound. They can keep it. What I want to see is a Scotland

where the buck stops in a place where we are fairly represented. I

don't want to get all boring about electoral systems. We are fairly

represented in the Scottish Parliament. Every single one of you

is properly represented in the Scottish Parliament. My vote doesn't

count in Westminster. My vote means nothing in Westminster. Your vote

whether you are green or anything else can mean something in an

independent Scotland. We are fairly represented there. Make the central

Government, the Government where we have a say every single one of us.

OK. APPLAUSE

The vote is in 16 days time. The best coverage of the result and the

ramifications on the BBC, I promise you, sir. So thank you very much for

having us here today in Dundee. We have had a really good time. Thank

you, give yourselves a round of applause.

APPLAUSE Good morning. You are watching BBC

News. The headlines for you with the time at 11.31am. South Yorkshire

Police launch an independent investigation into child sexual

exploitation in Rotherham. It comes as the Labour Party suspends three

councillors. No to Boris Island, the Airports Commission rejects the

Mayor of London's proposal for a Thames Estuary Airport. Mr Johnson

brands the decision as myopic. This is a gigantic smoke screen. It

solves our problem in the long-term, what we're careering towards is a

third runway at Heathrow followed by a fourth runway. The parents of

Ashya King are planning legal action against the hospital in Southampton

where he was treated. Brett Brett and Naghmeh King are fighting

extradition. Free school meals are being introduced for every primary

school child up to the age of seven. The Local Government Association

warned of a shortfall in funding. A plan to build a new airport on an

island in the Thames Estuary has been rejected. The project had been

championed by the Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, insisting that the

idea was not dead, he said the Airports Commission set the debate

back by half a century. Norman Smith has been talking to him. Well, the

Airports Commission would not have been clearer. They think the idea of

a new super airport in the Thames Estuary is not a runner, it is too

expensive, and too uncertain and may never get built and would cost like

another HS2 which no Government will commit to. Game over for Thames

Estuary Airport? It is game over? I don't think so at all. What you have

got to do now is hear from others about what their plans are. We need

the same clarity and boldness that we have seen from the estuary

airport solution. When people look at the reality of what is involved

with a third runway and at the reality of what is involved

with a third runway then a fourth runway at Heathrow, they will shy

away from that and people will say what is the logical replacement of

that? They will look again at the estuary site. You have been one of

those saying business has to know. You are just perpetuating the

uncertainty? On the contrary. I would like to get on and do it

tomorrow. It is a disgrace. Other Victorian forefathers would be

turning in their graves to look at how completely hopeless we are in

our approach to this. We should be getting on and doing it and we

shouldn't be contracting out this decision to distinguish former civil

serve ants no matter -- servants, no matter how eminent they are. I have

tremendous respect for Sir Howard and this is a political decision and

it needs leadership and it needs to be pushed forward. Isn't this just

bluster on your part and you are unwilling to accept a decision by

the commission which in the end will be accepted by a future Government?

There has been no decision. That's the great vacuum at the heart of

this. There is no answer. What is the policy going to be? It is not

going to be Thames Estuary. This is a gigantic smoke screen for a U-turn

on Heathrow. That's what I think. But what we need to hear... If that

happens, if that happens... What we need to hear from politicians other

than myself is what they mean. Are they in favour of a third runway or

not? What do you do if a future Conservative Government says, "You

know what, Heathrow is the best option." ? I oppose it. I continue

to make my case for the reasons I have given many times. It would be

difficult to deliver to a third runway at Heathrow. It has massive

environmental disbenefits. It would lead to a huge amount of congestion

in West London. We have seen a situation in which Britain, London,

has lost connectivity to markets around the world that the French,

the Dutch, the Germans are connected to very, very fast and that's

because we don't have a hub airport adequate to our purposes. And the

problem with Heathrow is it is a brilliant, they do a wonderful job

in many ways, but it is slap, bang in the middle western suburbs of

London and to continue to expand Heathrow, you are asking people in

parts of the city that don't even know it to accept a degradation in

their quality of life. How far are you willing to push it? Zac

Goldsmith said he would resign. If you became an MP, would you take a

similar stance? How far are you prepared to push it? My answer is

very simple. I in common with David Cameron and George Osborne, all of

us were elected on a clear manifesto to oppose a third runway at

Heathrow. That was the right policy. We should stick to it and to the

best of nigh knowledge we are going to stick to it. And if you don't

stick to it, if Mr Cameron decides to go with the airport commission,

that leads to a confrontation between you and him after the next

election? There is a mountain of hypothesis built into that question.

The policy has been to oppose a third runway and to come up with a

better solution. I'm confident that the Government will do so. Boris

Johnson, thank you very much for your time. The airport commission

may have come up with its view on the Thames he He is He is quarry

Airport -- Thames Estuary Airport. Norman, thank you very much. Let's

speak to Mary Cray. What is Labour's preference. Heathrow or Gatwick?

Well, we are waiting to see what the airport commission's final report

comes out with next June. We are not second-guessing what Sir Howard

Davies and his colleagues will come up with. ?100 billion project which

would have closed Heathrow and added to passenger journey times and put

aeroplanes at risk of bird strike. Let's focus on what Labour would do

if you were to return to power at next election. In 2009, you gave the

go-ahead for a new runway at Heathrow. Would you do the same

again? We have to see what the Airports Commission advises whoever

is in Government next year. It was set-up to get rid of the deadlock

between the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats around the

difficulties of expanding at Heathrow. Gatwick has put forward a

very positive case. But as I said... So what's your preference? The

commission has to come up with its judgement, but what is your

preference at the moment? Well, we're pleased to the original

proposal for a third runway at Heathrow has been dropped and that

there are now two proposals for Heathrow on the table. Gatwick is

also in the mix. It is not right for me, I could be in a position to

actually adjudicate on that next year, it is not right for me to say

now what the answer is. There is a process underway. We respect ta roe

ses and -- that process and we await its outcome. Are we not dragging our

feet on this? Other countries, we have seen the new Hong Kong airport

built quickly and we seem to have taken years and years and we have

not actually come up with a decision on this? We are dragging our feet.

The Airports Commission was set-up by this Government at our suggestion

to try and get a political consensus. What we need is an end to

the political post uerg that we saw demonstrated by the mayor in that

interview. His fantasy airport which had ?5 million of public money spent

on it is to do with his own political ambitions. Tb fair, it is

to the -- to be fair, it is not just about Boris Johnson. It is not just

about Boris Johnson, it was an option? I think it was actually all

about Boris Johnson and it was a pie in the sky scheme. Howard Davies

said the emperor has got no clothes. Boris doesn't like being told he

can't have what he wants. You are happy that it is down to a straight

choice between Heathrow and Gatwick? I am happy there has been a bit of

reality brought back into the debate about the country's airport needs

and we have got away from the mayor whose contribution has been building

a cable car. Thank you. Theresa May will answer an you

urgent question in the Commons on the Rotherham child abuse scandal.

Labour's Yvette Cooper is going to be raising the issue. This morning

Labour announced it was suspending four members in rother ram and --

Rotherham and South Yorkshire Police revealed reports in how the force

handled allegations of grooming. From this morning, every child in

their first three years of primary school in England should receive a

free school meal. The government says 98% of schools will provide hot

food. Association says councils are facing

a ?25 million shortfall in funding A hot meal for five to

seven-year-olds, well, that's the Government's plan at least. Here in

Oxford, they are racing to get ready. The biggest challenge across

the country has been in schools with no existing kitchens or in remote

areas, many have had to start from scratch. And the Local Government

Association says several councils have been left out of pocket by

central Government's grand plan. We reckon there is a ?25 million

shortfall in the bringing together of this programme. So actually a lot

of local authorities and schools will be diverting money from other

areas. Important areas to put into this programme. The Government says

it will support schools that are struggling and it expects the free

meals to improve the overall health and education of children and there

are benefits for others too. This and education of children and there

small firm in west Sussex will cook and deliver meals to local

schoolsful its business -- schools. Its business is double in size. This

time last year, we were cooking 600 to 650 lunches a day and from, well

certainly, Monday next week when all our schools are back, we are looking

at 1200 to 1300. England is the first country in the UK to adopt

this policy and it is being watched closely by the other home nations. A

hot meal for every child in the first three years is a bold promise,

but can it be fulfilled? The proof will be in the pudding.

Apple and the FBI say we are looking into allegations that the online

accounts of around 100 celebrities have been hacked lead to go nude

photographs of them being posted online. The actress general fefr

Laurence and -- was among those hacked. They are used to appearing

on camera. Hollywood stars, fashion models, and celebrity. Now images

have emerged, which if genuine, they would never wish to be made public.

A photo claimed to have a stack of risque photos of A-list celebrities

in various states of address. Among them Jennifer Laurence. A spokesman

said it was a violation of privacy. The authorities have been contacted

and will anyone who posts the stolen photographs will be prosecuted. It

appears at least some of the images may have been accessed from a

so-called cloud, an internet storage service in which users NHS and media

-- information and media is supposed to be private. Even if you have

deleted photos, often times they have been uploaded into the cloud

and when you delete them from the phone, they continue to exist. Apple

said it was investigating whether any I cloud accounts have been

tampered with. The FBI said it was aware of the allegations and was

addressing the matter. Anymore photos or videos be released? In a

moment a summary of the latest business news. But our latest

headlines. South Yorkshire police announce an independent

investigation into the pay it handled child sexual exploitation in

Rotherham T comes as the Labour Party there suspends three

counsellors. -- it comes. The Airports Commission rejects the

Mayor of Lo be done's proposal for a Thames Estuary airport. -- the Mayor

of London. And prosecutors are deciding whether

to drop a case against a British couple who removed their seriously

ill son from a couple who removed their seriously

ill son from hospital in Southampton.

In the business news this hour: Clubs in the Premier League spent

?835 million on new players during the summer transfer window.

Manchester United alone spent ?150m on new talent - the highest ever

Fewer of us have been complaining about our banks and insurers.

The Financial Ombudsman Service - where you can go

if you're not happy with the way your bank, insurer have dealt with

a problem - have seen a drop in the number of people coming to them.

For the six months to June they received 191,129 new cases but

in the previous six months they saw almost 250,000 new cases.

The new boss at Tesco, Dave Lewis, starts his first day

by asking his half a million staff to email him with their suggestions

The call to arms follows a steep decline in the share price,

with rivals stealing Tesco's share in the market.

Yet another house builder has had a bumper year.

Redrow has announced a nearly doubling in annual pre-tax

Coming in at just over ?132 million - in part due to a 27% increase

in the total number of homes built - but also charging people 13% more

The average selling price now stands at just under ?240,000.

Remember, though, that the group's exposure to

the runaway London market will have boosted that figure.

But it was also boosted by a Government-backed initiative to

The Help to Buy scheme accounted for 35% of all residential sales

last year and has been most popular in the Midlands and North.

The help-to-buy scheme has turbo charged the recovery. There are also

other factors. The economy is doing well and employment at record highs,

that is all helping the housing market. Help-to-buy scheme is a

direct subsidy to house builders, so it is not surprising they are doing

well from the scheme. Fewer of us have been complaining

about our banks and insurers. The Financial Ombudsman Service -

where you can go if you're not happy with the way

your bank, insurer have dealt with a problem - have seen a drop in the

number of people coming to them. For the six months to June they

received 191,129 new cases but in the previous six months they saw

almost 250,000 new cases. Zblets' speak to Karl -- let's speak

it Caroline Wyman. Thank you for very much for coming in. Does this

seem to suggest that banks are doing a better job when it comes to

customers? I think it means things are improving but still some way to

go. Although the numbers in PPI are down, we still over 1,000 people

getting into contact every day with problems over Payment Protection

Insurance. We have seen a big fall in the number of PPI complaints but

last we can we were hearing banks and loan companies are going to have