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The Whistleblower and the Watchdog

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This man's resignation plunged the office of Al Hutchinson into crisis.

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The strength and integrity of the office has weakened.

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Tonne on Spotlight, new evidence of failings in the body yet-up to hold

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police to account. There was informers involved and

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they should have been obliged to tell me exactly what they found.

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The intelligence branch of the PSNI given the all clear in the

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unmasking and subsequent death of Denis Donaldson. But was key

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evidence overlooked? How Can you close a case and find

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no evidence of police misconduct? Well, you seem to be rising new

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facts. Al Hutchinson is a former Royal ka in aidy mounty -- Canadian

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mowny. He stands accused of failing to pursue allegation that that

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Special Branch officers and agents broke the law.

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Murder, the loss of life, some The office of the Police Ombudsman

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has been a critical part of Northern Ireland's new future for

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policing. After ten years at the heart of police reform, Sam Pollock

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leaves work for the last time. With his resignation, the ombudsman's

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Chief Executive, sent shockwaves through the organisation set-up to

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hold police to account. He has refused to speak about why

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he left his �90,000 a year job until now. It was a statement on my

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part that I couldn't do anymore. I basically lost confidence in the

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direction of the office and the independence of the office in

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relation to very serious matters. The prospective of the police mind

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became upper most. His departure led to two officials reports that

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found a lack of leadership and a loss of independence. Criticism

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that led to the suspension of historical investigations, the

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ombudsman's most controversial area of work and forced Al Hutchinson to

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announce he will retire next June. I decided to leave because the

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office was being damaged by the attacks on me.

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Snoot difficult issues need to be addressed and and they are issues

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of transparency. They are issues of truthfulness about some very bad

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stories and matters which no matter how much we don't want to face them,

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need to be faced. I can assure everybody that we do

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deliver independent, impartial evidence based reports and whether

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that is perceived by the public or not is a matter of debate.

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. Disciplined by the ombudsman as internal rows became bitter, Sam

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Pollock has become an unlikely whistle-blower, after a career in

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the Criminal Justice System spanning 40 years, service that was

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rewarded with an OBE six years ago. My resignation was not in a fit of

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pique or anything like that. I did not want to be associated with

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something that I believed was not act in the public interest. I think

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he has done the office a service. His resignation from such a highly

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paid post in such circumstances speaks for itself. It was the act

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of a man of integrity. Sam Pollock Accused the watchdog he

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worked for, of turning a blind eye of serious wrongdoing to the police.

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Some of the ombudsman's investigators and senior officials

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claimed they have been kept in the dark and that reports have been

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changed to reduce criticism of the police. But this isn't just Sam

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Pollock's story. I spent weeks investigating cases that go to the

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heart of his criticisms. I have taught the families of victims who

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share his views and found that this is not simply about a failure to

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probe the RUC's past. I have discovered shortcomings in

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oversight of the PSNI. Obviously not at this stage.

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For 20 years, senior Sinn Fein member, Denis Donaldson led a

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secret life as an informer for MI5, the RUC and the PSNI.

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Then he was exposed as an agent and shot dead at a remote cottage in

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Donegal. Three years after he was killed, the Real IRA said they were

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responsible, but his family pointed an accusing finger at the police.

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They claim officers, who knew about Denis Donaldson's secret role, may

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have exposed him as an agent and contributed to his death. They

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complained to the Police Ombudsman and say he failed to conduct a

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proper investigation into their claims.

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Are you aware of the nature of the complaint made by the family of

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Denis Donaldson? I am because representative of the family did

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speak to me. Do you have a view on how their

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complaint was treated by the office? I have no doubt that the

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family are quite right to be just to feel frustrated or agitated

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about how the matter was dealt W Denis Donaldson's family believe a

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Special Branch agent handler, Lenny, may have the answers. It was a

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phone call from Lenny that sent Denis Donaldson fleeing to this

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cottage to dony from his home in Belfast.. All these events

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initiated with Denis being expositioned or forced into a a

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position where he admit his role as an agent. He was force nood that

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position by bun of the intelligence -- one of the intelligence agencies

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that recruited him. Nuala O'Loan now sits in the House

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of Lords. But in 2007, she was coming to the end of her seven year

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term as Police Ombudsman. The Donaldson family brought their

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concerns to her. I think I would have described it

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as grave and exceptional. A man who had been in a very significant

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position was murdered in questionable circumstances, I would

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have regarded it as significant, but more than that, I don't think I

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can say. After Nuala O'Loan left office, the

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Donaldson's complaint was redrafted and sent back to them, but they

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refused to sign it. The case case appeared to stall. A letter from

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the ombudsman said if the complaint wasn't signed, the matter would be

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closed and no further investigation would take place. The family didn't

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respond. They say they didn't want an investigation conducted under

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the new terms. The investigation was being closed,

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it was dead and buried they took the ombudsman's correspondance at

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face value. Other a year later, another letter

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arrived, even though the investigation had been declared

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closed, the family was told the ombudsman had gone on to conduct

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significant inquiries with the PSNI. The letter said no police

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misconduct has been identified and that this office has concluded the

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investigation and now considers the matter to be closed.

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But I have established that the case was closed without

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investigators speaking to the Special Branch handler known as

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Lenny. It is an issue that goes to the heart of complaints about the

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office of the ombudsman, that is reluctant to investigate

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allegations involving informants and their handlers.

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It can't be said to be an effective investigation because Lenny is the

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person at the centre of all this who has serious questions to ask.

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It beggars belief that the person in respect of hom the complaint --

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whom the complaint was directed wasn't even spoken to.

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Would you accept that it would would not be possible to conduct a

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proper investigation without speaking to the Special Branch

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handler? I am not across the file and the detail. I will look at it,

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but I really don't have the detail. The ombudsman's investigators were

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unaware of a potentially vital piece of information about Denis

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Donaldson's life as an informer. Something Irish police removed from

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cottage as part of their investigation and have refused to

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return to the family. When Gardai set-up a meeting with the family in

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July of 2006, to facilitate the return of personal effects and

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property that Denis had, Denis's widow noticed that missing was a

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jotter or a notebook in which Denis was writing issues in relation to

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his life. Denis was writing a journal.

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Gardai took away the jotter or journal after the murder. Denis

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Donaldson's family wants to read it. They believe it may provide clues

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about why he was killed and by whom. They were told it would be given

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back, but later informed that for security reasons the jotter cannot

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be returned. Is it the family's belief that the

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journal may have contained details of his life as an informant? Well,

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all the family know is that this material was going to be provided

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and returned to them. They then seen about face in terms of the

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Gardai decision to disclose that material which effectively would

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have been the last writings of this man before he was killed.

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I know nothing about a journal. I take it this is what the family are

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saying and the Gardai have that information. We would have to

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liaise with them. REPORTER: How can you close a case

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and find no police misconduct if you don't know the answers to those

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questions? Well, if there are new facts that need to come to us then

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certainly the family can bring them forward.

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So you will be looking at the case again? Well, it again it goes with

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the 128 or 19 that are in the list -- 129 that are on the list.

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The case is back on Al Hutchinson's list because the Hutchinson family

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brought the matter to the Chief Constable. The PSNI asked the

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ombudsman to re-open the investigation. The delay in the

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case has probably closed down one line of inquiry. We understand the

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handler known as Lenny has retired from the PSNI, meaning that under

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current legislation, he is no longer obliged to speak to the

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ombudsman's investigators. It was the dark corners of intelligence

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and the use of informers that became a battleground inside the

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ombudsman's office. I sensed in the end a dilemma or a conflict in

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terms of dealing with the whole issue of informants. It is a

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difficult matter. It is a sensitive matter. But short of that, a family

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who is maybe been living for years or decades with grief, not knowing

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basic information with regard to the death and loss, they have a

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right to know as much as possible. To speak about the involvement of

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an an informant directly or indirectly in murder and the loss

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of life, some atrocities, you cannot fudge that.

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And the office should not and never should step back from exposing that.

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But I found evidence that they did just that. The first time the

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ombudsman investigated the murder of a police officer his report

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withheld a key piece of information. In October 1988, RUC officer John

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Larmour was off duty and looking after his brother's ice cream

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parlour when two gunmen walked in just before closing time.

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No one has ever been charged with the murder.

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Gavin Larmour was 13 when his father was killed. Years later, he

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complained to the ombudsman about the police investigation into the

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murder. The ombudsman found that Special Branch had not told

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detectives everything they knew, but the ombudsman didn't tell him

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why the information was held back. Legislation prevents Sam Pollock

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from talking about specific cases, but he understands Gavin Larmour's

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anger. I cannot say anything more that I

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can understand why Gavin felt let down or felt the way he did with

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regard to reporting on the death of his father.

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REPORTER: You can understand his frustration? I can understand his

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frustration. Three-and-a-half years ago, the

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ombudsman released a two page report on the murder saying the

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investigation was hampered by Special Branch.

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It was information that was not passed on post the killing that

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could have assisted the investigation. The more important

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question is exactly what is that intelligence? Who does it

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implicate? Who handled it and why did they choose not to disseminate

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that down wards to the investigation team?

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REPORTER: Why was it not pass on to detectives -- passed on to

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detectives? Well, that is part of the new allegation that came up

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that is currently going to be investigated once we restart

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historic investigations. Al Hutchinson insists that Gavin

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Larmour has only only recently made the allegation that Special Branch

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was was protecting an informer. But I've learned that it is something

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the ombudsman's office has known about for sometime.

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In 2008, two weeks before the report and John Larmour's murder

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was published, a senior officer warned that the office was

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vulnerable if the Larmour report did not acknowledge that

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information was withheld from detectives in order to to protect a

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source. If there is any evidence or any

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indication of that whatsoever, they should have been obliged in their

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reply to me to tell me what they found.

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The John Larmour murder investigation brought to light a

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familiar story. Intelligence withheld from detectives who could

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have used it. That's what gave RUC Special Branch a reputation as a

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force within a force. Some of the ombudsman's investigators now

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believe the same problem exists within their office.

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In 2008, Al Hutchinson and this man, senior Director of Investigations

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Jim Coupland, commission add review of how sensitive intelligence was

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controlled in the ombudsman's office. It was set-up in response

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to PSNI concerns. Jim Coupland brought in four police figures from

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Great Britain to conduct the review. There are 17 recommendations were

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only seen by Mr Coupland and Al Hutchinson. But the effect of the

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review was to introduce a filter known as the confidential unit

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between police intelligence and ombudsman investigators.

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It is create ago firewall. -- it is create ago firewall. That did

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concern me. Because one of the very strong vitisms we made --

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criticisms we made of the PSNI or previously the RUC was that

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investigators were not getting all the information they needed or

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should have had from what was previously Special Branch. Although

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it is not a term I would use much, but the old term of the, "Force

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within the force" had real significance. The review seemed to

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almost replicate what we criticised the police for which was we had a

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unit within a unit. We had an office within an office.

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No, I don't agree. I don't think that's an appropriate analogy. All

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we did was tighten up the information and the loose handling

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of it and I don't agree with Sam as he said that as restricted

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information, necessary information, to the to the investigators.

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Six months ago, Al Hutchinson called in criminal justice

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inspector Michael Maguire to investigate Sam Pollock's concerns.

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He criticised the intelligence review for focusing entirely on the

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needs of the police and MI5 while apparently giving no regard to the

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needs of civilian oversight. One of the core functions of the

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ombudsman's office. Proper mechanism for handling material, I

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don't have a problem with. What I did have a concern with was the

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absence of civilians within the ombudsman's office, non police in

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contributing to that review. We had as we moved forward, the beginnings

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of serious mistrust within the organisation over the way in which

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confidential information and sensitive material was handled.

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Was it a mistake not to have any civilian input into the review of

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the intelligence function within your office? No, it was not a

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mistake. It was not set-up for that. Trying to distinguish the two areas,

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the product that comes out of there has to be balanced against the

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public's right for information versus the right to protect the

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life of informants and information. By May last year, the ombudsman's

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office was deeply divided over the handling of intelligence.

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Particularly about how much to reveal when informers were involved.

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That became apparent here on this estate in Derry.

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Here, three families became caught between the IRA's attempt to kill

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police officers and the RUC's suspected attempt to protect a mole

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inside the provisionals and here the ombudsman is alleged to have

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stepped back from highlighting a terrible failure to protect life.

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It was a flat roof building at that time with a balcony on it and this

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would have been our house originally. On the 3 sst the 31st

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August 1988, my father was killed in an explosion at our home.

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Father of six, Eugene Dalton was caught in a trap meant for police.

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The IRA kidnapped the man who lived in the flat above Eugene Dalton's

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home. They planted a bomb inside attached to the door.

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The IRA then made several attempts to lure police into the trap. A car

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used in a rocket attack on an RUC station was left outside the flat

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and a trail of blood was left leading to the door.

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Police were told about the car, but didn't go to the flat. Two days

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later, a chip shop was robbed, ID belonging to the man who lived in

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the flat was dropped by the robbers. Again, police did not go to the

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flat. That's because what is known as an out of bounds order had been

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issued telling police to stay away from the streets around the bomb.

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No such warning was given to the public.

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The bomb had been in place six days when Eugene Dalton and two friends

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went to look for their missing neighbour. The bomb was triggered

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when Eugene opened the door. Eugene Dalton and Sheila Lewis were killed

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immediately. Gerard Curran died later in hospital. The Daltons

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acknowledged that the IRA was responsible for killing their

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father, but in 2005, they complained to the Police Ombudsman

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alleging that police could have prevented the deaths.

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In 2008, ombudsman investigators briefed the Daltons about their

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findings. They indicated that an informer told police about an

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attack, a warning they had never made its way to residents of the

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estate. What did the investigators tell

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you? Well, they told us that they had had discovered that there was

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an exclusion put into that area. That the police and the soldiers

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were told not to go near that area. Did investigators say that because

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of an out of bounds order, that proved the bliss knew where the

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bomb -- police knew with the bomb was? Yes, that did prove that the

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police did know where the bomb was. Well, it was never going to be a

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happy outcome because at the end of the day, nothing is going to bring

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my daddy back. It made us feel better that we had been found to be

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right. That the police were wrong. One of the of the investigators did

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say in a discussion after the meeting, "This will not be easy

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reading for the police.". wouldn't have been easy read read

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if it had been published. Last year, a draft ombudsman's report upheld

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the Dalton's chief complaints, including the allegation that

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police knew a bomb was in place but did not act because they were

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protecting an informer. The draft had taken almost five years to

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produce, but it was then rewritten over one weekend, reversing each of

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the findings. It suddenly became much easier reading for the police.

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Days after the rewrite, Al Hutchinson, Jim Coupland, and two

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other senior directors met the dal tans and -- Daltons and read out

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the revised conclusions. We feel that the delegation who

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came from Belfast, came to basically sell us a pup. I think

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those changes were made to remove or minimise the impact of the fact

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that the RUC, Special Branch, knew about that bomb.

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I'm in no doubt from within the office that that there were

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concerns about the changing of that report. The redrafts led to less

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criticism of the police? There was no deliberate lowering of criticism

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of the police. That is not an issue. Well, reports are changed

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throughout the process, but they are only changed this response to

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evidence or evaluation of that evidence and certainly observed

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they are changed. They are changed both ways to favour the police, to

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criticise the police, it depends on the evidence. It is always evidence

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based. The the impact of the changes in

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that report were to make it less critical of the police and change

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the clunetionz given to families and the representatives. We weren't

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clear as to why changes were made because there was no clear evidence

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as to why or what new evidence had come to light.

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He couldn't find any paper trail. It looks like he didn't ask anybody

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involved in the process for any explanations. If he had, they would

0:25:430:25:45

have provided him. Is there a paper trail? Well, no,

0:25:450:25:51

there isn't. That appears to be the issue with that particular file.

0:25:510:25:54

go to the Police Ombudsman and them accept the case, it was like

0:25:540:25:58

brilliant, we're going to get the answers we need and then last year

0:25:580:26:03

when they came down in May with the story and read us that report, we

0:26:030:26:10

were just gutted. We just felt, it was a real hard blow. We felt let

0:26:100:26:15

down. Really let down.

0:26:150:26:20

Because they were set-up to give us answers and they just gave us more

0:26:200:26:24

questions. Those questions have multiplied

0:26:240:26:29

because the ombudsman's office was divided over how to carry the

0:26:290:26:34

investigation forward. The Dalton family was told investigators

0:26:340:26:38

received legal advice that former RUC officers could be arrested and

0:26:380:26:42

questioned about allegations that they had broken the law by failing

0:26:420:26:47

to act. That step would have outraged

0:26:470:26:52

retired officers. But it didn't happen. Investigators were directed

0:26:520:26:55

to treat retired officers as witnesses and not suspects.

0:26:550:27:03

Did you arrest any retired officers for questioning? The answer is no.

0:27:030:27:09

And did you consider doing so? we'll leave that to the final

0:27:090:27:16

report. I think that all avenues of inquiry should have been available

0:27:160:27:24

to the investigating officers. I feel that any confidence that we in

0:27:240:27:30

the ombudsman's office has gone. When you think of the spirit in

0:27:300:27:33

which the ombudsman's office was set-up and that spirit no longer

0:27:330:27:39

exists within the ombudsman's office as far as I see.

0:27:390:27:42

Baroness Nuala O'Loan is well acquainted with the issue of

0:27:420:27:47

retired officers. She felt some of her investigations were stymied

0:27:470:27:51

because former officers would not co-operate even as witnesses. When

0:27:510:27:57

her term as Police Ombudsman expired in 2007, she left behind a

0:27:570:28:02

legally required review with 26 recommendations for strengthening

0:28:020:28:07

the powers of the ombudsman. One of the recommendations you made

0:28:070:28:12

you could compel retired officers to come to interview? We should be

0:28:120:28:19

able to do that because they are a big resource in terms of the Police

0:28:190:28:22

Service of Northern Ireland. Whilst they understand there were many

0:28:220:28:28

cases for them a long time ago, it was nfrl very important that we got

0:28:280:28:35

the co-operation and in some cases they were non co-operative.

0:28:350:28:40

Her proposal was opposed by retired officers, but when Al Hutchinson

0:28:400:28:44

became Police Ombudsman, he accepted 19 of Nuala O'Loan's 26

0:28:440:28:47

recommendations including the measure to compel former officers

0:28:470:28:52

to speak to investigators. As discussions about the proposals

0:28:520:28:57

dragged on for almost two years, Mr Hutchinson delegated the work to

0:28:570:29:04

Jim Coupland and another official. In October 2009, Mr Cope land

0:29:040:29:07

signed a memo with the Northern Ireland Office spelling out the

0:29:070:29:11

original 26 proposals, but the memo told the minister that Al

0:29:110:29:15

Hutchinson was accepting just four. There was one problem - he didn't

0:29:150:29:20

know. It was presented as an agreed document between the Northern

0:29:200:29:24

Ireland Office and between your office and it was signed off

0:29:240:29:32

between the Director of NIO and an official. I didn't know about it

0:29:320:29:35

and that was brought to our attention about December 2009.

0:29:350:29:41

Well, when I saw the actual document in December 2009, I would

0:29:410:29:51
0:29:510:29:52

say that that was the beginning of my loss of confidence in what was

0:29:520:30:00

going on behind the scenes. The information presented to the

0:30:000:30:05

minister would suggest that those recommendations had the full force,

0:30:050:30:11

the full support, of the Police Ombudsman, myself and our staff and

0:30:110:30:16

that was fundamentally untrue. In fact, it only had the support of

0:30:160:30:22

one member of staff, the senior director and I found that amazing.

0:30:220:30:26

I was quite shocked. It would appear that Jim Coupland

0:30:260:30:31

was in the driving seat, rather than you? I am ultimately

0:30:310:30:35

responsible for that. If you are saying that Jim Coupland bears

0:30:350:30:37

responsibility for that, no he doesn't.

0:30:370:30:43

Were you surprised that 22 of your 26 recommendations were rejected?

0:30:430:30:47

find it very odd. The power to compel retired

0:30:470:30:50

officers was among the 22 recommendations Jim Coupland said

0:30:500:30:56

the ombudsman had rejected. That proposal has been put back on the

0:30:560:31:00

table by Al Hutchinson. It is all going forward in the next five year

0:31:000:31:05

review. It is a rather mute point and by the end of October that will

0:31:050:31:07

be back to the Minister for Consulting.

0:31:070:31:13

The Northern Ireland Office said its officials acted in good faith

0:31:130:31:16

thinking the ombudsman was aware of changes to the review, but Sam

0:31:160:31:22

Pollock believes the work of Nuala O'Loan made them determined to

0:31:220:31:25

stall greater power going to the ombudsman.

0:31:250:31:30

I do believe the strategy behind what happened over the five year

0:31:300:31:39

review was wholy in the hands of the Northern Ireland Office and no

0:31:390:31:44

one else. There seemed to be some view at that level that the wings

0:31:440:31:49

of the office had to be clipped or that the office couldn't continue

0:31:490:31:58

to act in such a strong fashion and therefore, the recommendations were

0:31:580:32:05

kicked into touch. In 2007, Nuala O'Loan published a

0:32:050:32:13

controversial report into the activities of a UVF informer,

0:32:130:32:16

titled Operation Ballast, the report said he been protected and

0:32:160:32:20

paid by Special Branch while leading the gang involved in more

0:32:200:32:23

than ten murders. Senior police officers from the time told me that

0:32:230:32:28

intelligence agencies were deeply alarmed because the revelations

0:32:280:32:33

exposed the work of an active informer.

0:32:330:32:38

It was the kind of case that Al Hutchinson has described as toxic

0:32:380:32:43

for the ombudsman's office. Now all of the historic cases,

0:32:430:32:47

during my time and before mip time, have -- my time have all generated

0:32:470:32:51

controversy. The police are either upset or the families are upset, it

0:32:510:32:55

is hard to be in the middle, but the salvation and the way to go, of

0:32:550:33:00

course, is evidence based. If we can evidence a fact then we should

0:33:000:33:03

report it against the police or against the family.

0:33:030:33:08

But cases like Operation Ballast bridge the past and the present.

0:33:080:33:13

The RUC and the PSNI. I have learned of a similar case involving

0:33:130:33:18

an IRA informer that could turn out to be just as significant. It has

0:33:180:33:25

been with Al Hutchinson for four years. In 2007, former Chief

0:33:250:33:29

Constable, Sir Hugh Orde sent the ombudsman details of this case for

0:33:290:33:34

investigation. Jim Coupland decided there were no resources available

0:33:340:33:40

to pursue the case. Sam Pollock was astonished.

0:33:400:33:46

There is nothing more important really than a referral from a Chief

0:33:460:33:54

Constable. And it beggars belief that such a matter could have been

0:33:540:34:03

shelved or relegated or just not dealt with. I don't accept that the

0:34:040:34:09

resources would be an issue. That shocked me. I was surprised that

0:34:090:34:13

the decision not to investigate it further was taken on the basis of a

0:34:130:34:18

lack of resources. There is other criteria and that should have been

0:34:180:34:22

factored into the decision making. On the list of of priorities where

0:34:220:34:26

does a Chief Constable referral sit? Oh, it would sit very high. It

0:34:260:34:30

would sit very high. Because what you are looking at is the

0:34:300:34:34

seriousness of the issue and the other things are that the

0:34:340:34:38

legislation says the Police Ombudsman should investigate, so

0:34:380:34:42

you simply must investigate. It just goes without saying. It has to

0:34:420:34:45

be done. In a statement to pot light Sir

0:34:450:34:55
0:34:550:35:02

Hugh Orde -- Spotlight Sir Hugh Well, resources are always an issue.

0:35:020:35:08

If I recall, that's a case that spanned history and current, the

0:35:080:35:14

troubles and again, resources are key to this, that's why I need more

0:35:140:35:16

resources, the devolved administration has to deliver.

0:35:160:35:21

Your former former Chief Executive, Sam Pollock, said it beggars belief

0:35:210:35:26

that such a referralal was not investigated immediately. Well, I

0:35:260:35:31

haven't heard Sam say that before, so I'm not sure what his comment is

0:35:310:35:35

with respect. We asked Nuala O'Loan about this and she said if

0:35:350:35:38

necessary, you suspend investigations into other cases,

0:35:380:35:42

you prioritise and you free up resources. Well, with respect, nul

0:35:420:35:47

la is not here. Somebody has to make those decisions and the

0:35:470:35:51

decision was taken and anything is open to review.

0:35:510:35:59

Did you ask for more resources for this referralal? No, we didn't. We

0:35:590:36:04

asked for more money to deal with all the historic cases. Well,

0:36:040:36:08

sitting with 128 cases which one do you want me to deal with?

0:36:080:36:12

business tute inside the om -- dispute inside the ombudsman's

0:36:130:36:18

office descend nood a bitter mess. Senior Director of Investigations

0:36:180:36:23

ux Jim Coupland took a complaint against Sam Pollock who was given a

0:36:230:36:29

written warning. He resigned the same day. Jim Coupland went on sick

0:36:290:36:34

leave for over a year. He faced disciplinary proceedings after he

0:36:340:36:39

admitted lying to an investigator. We asked Jim Coupland to take part

0:36:390:36:45

in this programme, but he declined saying he would like to engage with

0:36:450:36:49

the issues we raised, but he said medical reasons and legislation

0:36:490:36:56

prevented him from doing so. Tonight, the crisis in the

0:36:560:36:59

ombudsman's office is far from being resolved. Al Hutchinson is

0:36:590:37:04

due to leave next June and his two most senior officials have gone. I

0:37:040:37:09

have learned that just last week, Jim Coupland followed Sam Pollock

0:37:090:37:17

by handing in his resignation, but the ombudsman insists he can fix

0:37:170:37:21

things. I urged Mr Hutchinson to fix what

0:37:210:37:28

was wrong and to fix it quickly. I had urged the minister to support

0:37:280:37:32

the Police Ombudsman in ensuring that it was fixed quickly in the

0:37:320:37:35

interests of Northern Ireland and in the interests of the police

0:37:350:37:45
0:37:450:37:45

service and in the interests of the office. Now I feel let down by so

0:37:450:37:50

much of what has happened. I would have to say on a personal level and

0:37:500:37:57

on a professional level I think he should resign.

0:37:570:38:02

And resign with immediate effect? Yes.

0:38:020:38:07

Well, those are Sam's words. I disagree with them and I am

0:38:070:38:16

disappointed to hear that. He left the office of his own own violition

0:38:160:38:19

and I'm going to stay to see this through. Whoever sits in this chair

0:38:190:38:27

is going to be subject to all of this, Nuala was before me. I am now.

0:38:270:38:32

The next one will be. So the toxic legacy of the past, because

0:38:320:38:35

politically it has been unresolved, is damaging for the office.

0:38:350:38:39

When Al Hutchinson leaves, the first and Deputy First Ministers

0:38:390:38:44

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